Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?

but blain is the reformed view more prevelent then the anabatise view that held the new had more weight ,,,,id like to see reference to that please ,,to me it sounds like a reactanary opinion of your brother

I see what you saying Blain, but to draw your final conclusion could lead you down a path which discredits vast swaithes of the bible. The goal of the nt minister is to bring Jesus Christ to the fore in the OT.

What are asking then? For Christ is the end of the law for everyone who believes.

What other reason would there be for you to observe the law of Moses? For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Again,

I want to stress something really heavily here.

The OT is NOT synonymous with the old covenant!

Again, the old covenant is FOUND in what we call the OT, but the OT is not only the old covenant.

The NT is NOT the new covenant. The new covenant is fulfilled in the NT, but the New covenant is also all over the place in the OT. In fact, the Bereans looked in the OT to find out if what Paul was saying was true concerning the Messiah and the new covenant.

Moses and Christ are not pitted one against another. No, sir. The law was my schoolmaster to bring me to Christ. Now Christ is the fulfillment of the law for me.

But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

I am righteous because of the faith I have in Jesus Christ, not because of the law. However, Paul makes it very clear that the law has a purpose. Read Romans and Galatians.

Christ is indeed the Greater One. Moses was just a shadow of Christ, and Christ is the fulfillment of the Prophet like him.

However look at what Paul said:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What was he talking about when he said "all scripture"? He wasn't talking about the NT (although it applies now), I can tell you that much.

It is all useful, it is all authoritative, but it all must be applied for its intended purpose. And because so many have used the law for what it was not intended to be used for, we shy away from the entire OT.

Brother Blaine,

I love you, but this isn't calvinism vs. anything else. The issue is our view of Scriptures.

Christians do not live under the law, but under Christ:

Romans 6:14-15 - "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

1 Corinthians 15:56 - "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law."

Romans 7:4-6 - "Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another ”” to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Romans 5-8 speaks of this very clearly - though it took many years before the scales fell off my eyes and I finally grasped its meaning. I believe the key to understanding Romans is to read the text literally, and pay due attention to the grammatical tenses used by Paul.

This article articulates quite well on Christian living - what it means to be alive to God, and being dead to sin, self, the law, and the world:

The Key To The Victorious Christian Life: An explanation of how to experience the victory, peace, freedom and joy God has provided for us in Christ (by Mike Quarles)

http://brotherheart.wordpress.com/articles-by-mike-quarles/the-key-to-the-victorious-christian-life/

[[edit]]

This topic always draws out the most interesting responses no matter where you find it.

It can be messy. As a rule, we are not very good students of God's Word. We bring our own ways of reading and processing information to it, for one. We also have so many disparate voices insisting on being authoritative themselves and they are saying all sorts of different and often opposing or inconsistent things.

I like what Havok said about the OT and NT.

We should not view the revelation of God in the Word through two sets of glasses. The Bible is a long revelation of God, who is always the same. It is the revelation of God in His relationship with His creation. Because it is a practical revelation of an actual relationship, we are blessed to have concrete historical accounts of that revelation in real human time as opposed to a compilation of truisms and abstract ideas. One reason we fail to read it as a single, complex, continuing revelation of one God is because the faces, names and places do change as God's relationship outlasts one generation and is accounted for into the next, and so on.

It does little help to say that the OT is fulfilled in the NT. It is true, but it doesn't really mean anything in a practical sense to most readers.

The OT is not out of date. It is not "less authority" than the NT. There is no opposition between them. What the OT is, though, is the revelation of God, given to men by eyewitness accounts, by God's providential supervision of the recording of actual events, places and people, and by the agency of the Holy Spirit. The OT revelation is the history of God's specific revelation of Himself and His intentions for His creation on earth through one relationship with a multi-generational ethne with whom He bound Himself in three particular covenants: Abrahamic (through whose seed all nations will be blessed, the seed being Jesus), Mosaic (the Law of God as a tutor and master of the ways of God and the sin of man, designed to bring the particular line of Abraham through Issac and Jacob through time and by the guiding hand of God until the fulness of time and the person of a Jesus, son of Mary) and Davidic (a royal kingdom comprised of the line of Abraham, Issac and Jacob and ruled by descendants of David, culminating finally and forever in Jesus the Christ in the eschaton of all things.). The NT is the historical account of God's completion of His revelatory work and His redemptive work with His only begotten Son, Jesus, as the fullest and final revelation of God and as the redemption of the physical line of Abraham (Israel) and of the "nations" through faith in Jesus.

Without the OT, there is no NT. Without the NT, the OT is moot. Certainly, there are specific portions of the OT that do not have direct application to the nations, and the whole of the ritual law of the OT is made unnecessary by the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus. Yet, these do not pit one of the testaments against the other, nor the covenants.

Finally, Jesus is the fulfillment of all things. It is before Him that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. At the transfiguration, where Moses and Elijah appeared to Peter, James and John and spoke with Jesus, it was Peter's response to build three tabernacles including one for Moses. But, only a week before, Peter had said to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the son of the loving God." The Father Himself responded to Peter: "This is my Son. Hear ye Him," and Moses and Elijah were gone. There is no question that Jesus was, is and shall ever remain the One to whom we answer, the One to whom we must give account. He is the ahead of the Body and there is no other. There are no "degrees" of His authority, which is absolute and unique as the blessed and only potentate.

by sermonindex on 2014/7/15 7:44:10

We are governed by Christ Himself the Person and not even the Scriptures though they are a means so therefore Christ supersedes even the Scriptures themselves.
______________________

Great post Greg, simple and to the point. JESUS is a person and we are governed by HIM.

God Bless
maryjane

Brother Blaine,

If you have meet anyone who says that you have to keep the law AND the new covenant, they are desperately mistaken--calvinist, arminian, or neither.

I think we agree mostly, but I am discussing it from the perspective that many, many Christians ignore the first 39 books of the Bible because they aren't the New Testament, because some deceived preacher or church member told them that the OT was unimportant.

Havok wrote:

"I think we agree mostly, but I am discussing it from the perspective that many, many Christians ignore the first 39 books of the Bible because they aren't the New Testament, because some deceived preacher or church member told them that the OT was unimportant."

And, a lot of them say this. Re: Joseph Prince, much of the Church of Christ denomination, and lots more.

Dolfan wrote:

"And, a lot of them say this. Re: Joseph Prince, much of the Church of Christ denomination, and lots more."

Where does Joseph Prince say this? He speaks of seeing Christ in the Old Testament, I thus find it hard to believe that he would make such a blanket dismissal.

Yuehan,

I respectfully submit the following:

From Destined to Reign,

"The law is about you looking at yourself. The new covenant is all about you seeing Jesus.” (p. 196)

"Have you noticed that the law entered so that sin might abound? It clearly means that the more you preach the law, the more sin will abound. After all, the strength of sin is the law. Therefore, when you see sin and you preach more of the law, you are literally adding wood to fire." (p. 249)

Now, these two rather randomly chosen quotes carry a lot of meaning. The law brings me to Christ, according to Paul. Not so for Prince, who says it helps you look at yourself. Plus, the law isn't "about" that at all. He made it up.

Prince wholly disowns the power of the OT. "My friend, the spirit of Jesus in the new covenant of grace is not the spirit of the old covenant of law during Elijah’s time.” (p. 51-52.). The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, says the Bible. The testimony of Jesus is replete, full of, the OT law and prophets, even as He preached the kingdom of God. Jesus actually rebuked Satan with the OT three times.

There is so much more. Read some of Michael Brown's work on Prince's writing.

Prince says this, too, albeit less about his covenant issues:

"Because of Jesus' finished work at the cross, He will never be angry with you nor rebuke you even when you fail. (p. 305)". He just took out 2 Tim. 3:16 there, which by itself includes "all Scripture" .... primarily the OT at that time ... As being I spired and profitable for, among other things, rebuke.

Hi Dolfan,

I don't have a copy of Joseph Prince's "Destined to Reign" with me, so I can only guess the context in which these quotes were taken (based on what I know of his theology).

The first quote: I believe what Joseph Prince is saying here is that trying to live in obedience to the law is to rely on your own strength ("looking at yourself"). In contrast, fixing your mind on Christ - who He is, what He has done, and who you are in Him - is New Covenant living (Romans 8:6, Romans 12:2).

The second quote: By "preaching the law", I believe what he means here is "preaching that Christians should obey the law" (that is not the purpose of the law!! - c.f. Galatians 3:21-25, 1 Timothy 1:8”“11). And Joseph Prince is correct - that can never lead to holy living (1 Cor 15:56). Indeed, there were many who attempted to live up to the requirements of the Mosaic Law, but none were counted righteous despite centuries of such efforts.

The Christian life is not about living under a set of rules (i.e. 'law' - no matter how agreeable and good those rules may be); it is about being governed by Christ (Romans 8:1-17). The former is fleshly living, while the other is supernatural living - both are radically different, and lead to extraordinarily different outcomes.

This also corroborates with Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." It is by receiving God's grace that you are empowered to overcome sin. Joseph Prince does not preach grace as a license to sin - to the contrary, he states emphatically that those who adopt such Antinomian views have yet to understand God's grace (from the FAQ on his official website). This is fully biblical.

The purpose of the Old Covenant is to show us that we cannot live up to God's standards as revealed in the law, thus revealing our need for Christ (Galatians 3:21-25). It is true that the New Covenant was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, however the New Covenant is *not* contained in the Old Covenant. Otherwise there would be no need for a New Covenant at all - and indeed, the New Covenant is superior to the old in every way (Hebrews 8:7-13).

I'm not here to endorse or repudiate Joseph Prince's ministry. However, I believe that if his views and theology are to be criticized, they should be given accurate representation.

As for my opinion on Joseph Prince (and I should stress that it is just an opinion - based on some of his stuff I've gleaned, and also having visited his church a few times):

Some of the stuff which Joseph Prince says is problematic (like the page 305 quote on rebukes which you highlighted), but in my opinion it's nowhere as problematic as the very poor grasp of the New Covenant in many churches.

When Joseph Prince is good, he's really good. I reckon it's a dangerous thing to imbibe his every word without checking with God - but that's true of all preachers anyway.

I cannot endorse everything he says wholesale. Having prayed about it, I don't have a habit of listening to Joseph Prince's sermons on a regular basis. Ultimately, I have one teacher and I know He is sufficient (Matt 23:8).

However, I have no doubt there are people who encounter God and are set free through Joseph Prince's ministry. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...

I pray that he will come to know God ever more fully, which is what I pray for myself as well.

Brother Blaine,

This is an excellent topic, and one that is hugely misunderstood in the church today.

There is all sorts of varieties of belief on this, but it usually comes down to some kind of strange combination of old and new covenants. Hardly anyone agrees with another's idea of what the percentage should be of old/new. A lot of american "christianity" (and probably other places, but I'll speak as an american) is more about morality and living decent than about the righteousness that comes through believing in Jesus Christ. With that view you generally find a weird combination of mixed covenant belief.

We need to rightly divide the Word of God. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15.

Christians today are not under the old covenant, not any part of it, including the 10 commandments. People often freak out when I say that. The entire old covenant has been set aside. We are now in the new covenant, it is an entirely new covenant and is self-contained. Is there some of the same things in both covenants? Absolutely. But where many people run into trouble is when they try to have a little of both covenants. The old covenant prophesies and alludes to the new for sure.

The whole old covenant is set aside, not just the civil and ceremonial laws, but also the 10 commandments. Please understand my point here. My point is not that all of the sudden it's okay to commit murder for example, the new covenant addresses these types of things. My point is that the whole covenant and everything it contains is set aside for a new covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.1 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

The 10 commandments were what was written and engraven in stones. Verse 11 tells us that was done away.

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Hebrews has a lot to say to us about the 2 covenants. It's all throughout the book but especially chapters 6-12.

The old covenant has many uses to the believer today, for example, the shadows and types can help us understand the new covenant better. All the word of God is for the believer today, but it MUST be used for the purpose it is intended! The old covenant is not for believers to live UNDER today.

Paul writes more about this in Galatian 4:19-31.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.8 9 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.10 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that Paul says he travails in birth again until Christ is formed in them. The word "again" is often overlooked when people read and quote that verse. Remember what he talks about in chapter 3. The Galatians had been born again by the hearing of faith, but then they were trying to be perfected by the law! So Paul said he was in travail until Christ be formed AGAIN in them! They had left Christ! How much of the church today is in the same condition?

Paul says that Abraham's sons are an allegory of two covenants! Hagar corresponds to Mount Sinai. What was given on Mount Sinai? The law! The people still trying to live under the law, including those who mix old and new still persecute the children of the freewoman, those who live by and in the new covenant. He then goes on to say to cast out the bondwoman, the old covenant! One other thing to note from this passage of scripture is that Spirit = New Covenant, Flesh = Old Covenant.

This is by no means a comprehensive look at this subject, but this is probably enough for this post.

-Andrew

The whole old covenant is set aside, not just the civil and ceremonial laws, but also the 10 commandments. Please understand my point here. My point is not that all of the sudden it's okay to commit murder for example, the new covenant addresses these types of things. My point is that the whole covenant and everything it contains is set aside for a new covenant.

As pointed out in another thread, then why do we still have some of the same Ten Commandments and other OT references to the moral law reinforced in the NT? Again, for example,

""If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."-James 2:8-12

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."-Romans 7:7-25

"8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,” "You shall not murder,” "You shall not steal,” "You shall not bear false witness,”"You shall not covet,”and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."-Romans 13:8-10

"Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”37 Jesus said to him, "‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”-Matthew 22:35-40

In this last passage Jesus quotes directly from the OT(Deut.6:5 and Lev.19:18) and reinforces God's unchanging moral law revealed therein.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11

"6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.1 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

The 10 commandments were what was written and engraven in stones. Verse 11 tells us that was done away.

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Hebrews has a lot to say to us about the 2 covenants. It's all throughout the book but especially chapters 6-12.

Paul writes more about this in Galatian 4:19-31.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.8 9 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.10 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Notice that Paul says he travails in birth again until Christ is formed in them. The word "again" is often overlooked when people read and quote that verse. Remember what he talks about in chapter 3. The Galatians had been born again by the hearing of faith, but then they were trying to be perfected by the law! So Paul said he was in travail until Christ be formed AGAIN in them! They had left Christ! How much of the church today is in the same condition?

Paul says that Abraham's sons are an allegory of two covenants! Hagar corresponds to Mount Sinai. What was given on Mount Sinai? The law! The people still trying to live under the law, including those who mix old and new still persecute the children of the freewoman, those who live by and in the new covenant. He then goes on to say to cast out the bondwoman, the old covenant! One other thing to note from this passage of scripture is that Spirit = New Covenant, Flesh = Old Covenant.

In the book of Galatians Paul is warning his readers about trying to keep the law, including circumcision, as a means of obtaining righteousness. The NT warns over and over about the curse that comes from trying to do that. We are not saved by keeping the law but by God's grace through faith in Christ alone apart from the works of the law.

In Romans 3:31 Paul says, "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

What law is established according to Paul there? In considering the whole of the NT, I'd say it's the moral law that continues to be established but now in a new way through the gospel and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is now called the law of Christ which is written on our hearts and revealed in both the OT and NT.

It is very simple. OT talks about a covenant that is external blessing. There are very few internal laws and blessing here. New Covenant that is established through death and esablishment of Jesus is all internal life and blessings. Jesus said if the inside of cup is cleansed then outside is clean as well. So if we follow New Covenant life by being obedient to Jesus, we automatically keep the Mosaic law. But the reverse is not true, by keeping OT we cannot satisfy NT life. Like Jesus said, he has strengthened the law by his teachings in the Sermon on the mount.

When a believer turns to Jesus, Jesus becomes his only authority on earth, nothing else like OT laws can beind him. It is the Spirit of Jesus, Holy Spirit that guides him. This leads to a life that is of very high standard than any Old Testament guy can attain. Jesus said the greatest man under Old Covenant (John the Baptist) is not greater than the least in under New Covenant.

2HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

paul quoted strait form the law of moses and comanded the children under the new covernt ,,done,,,,, obviously the comandment are still binding ,else how do ya explain paull literly quoting that

the comment obout the glory of the old couvernt fading away was acutual talking about the glory of moses face ,,

i was going to use that as a proof text one day to suport that we are not under the ten comand but after reading that verse and rembering the above verses i changed my mind and reliesed we are not under the condemnation and chastiment of the law, that was what we were held by not the moral law its self ,,but in all reality gentils like us were with out law and i would have perished with out law

we are under grace ,not under the law and held by it through being guitly law breakers ,,we fulfille the laws perfect requirment through jesus perfect righteousness ,the righteousness of god imputed to us by faith being held by that ,costrained by that law of grace , now we partakes of devine nature which sets us free from the other law of habiual sin ,,now that law neither has doninion over us ,so now it is imposable to cotine in sin becasue god seed is in us so we can no longer continue to love and persue ,and practice sin

Heb 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

Heb 10:6
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

Heb 10:7
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come””
In the volume of the book it is written of Me””
To do Your will, O God.’”‰”fn

Heb 10:8
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),

Heb 10:9
then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”fn He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

In every generation since Adam, God had no pleasure in "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin." He "did not desire" them.

What has God always required of man?

Moses has absolutely no authourity over a believer in Jesus Christ. To suggest that he does is to tell someone that has emigrated to your country that he is still under the laws of the country he left.

Picking up on the other thread which is played out in this context.

Jesus Christ preached the law like no one had and the crowds were amazed. And he lived it out exactly as God had intended, that is why being in Christ in the new covenant is so important and quite frankly throws all the glory to Jesus.

The sermon on the mount was the the true spirituality of the law.

How often does he say, 'You've heard it said, but I say to you...'

If the law is not fully understood as exacting as Jesus preached it, then we cheapen the grace that has come through Christ.

ZekeO writes:

"How often does He say, "You've heard it said, but I say to you..."

Good point...

Jesus said this also...

Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),

Heb 10:9
then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.”fn He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Aren't the Scriptures, the OT and NT, the testimony of the work of the Messiah since the creation of the world?

I honestly wish I had never read any theology. The Bible is sufficient. All of this other stuff just confuses me. "Finney said this!" "Augustine said that!" Who cares? I am increasingly adopting Smith Wigglesworth's view; he only read the Bible.

Hi rookie,

In every generation since Adam, God had no pleasure in "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin." He "did not desire" them.

What has God always required of man?

The above verses show that the obedience that God desires of us is to believe in Jesus, and everything flows from that (c.f. John 15:4-5 on abiding in Christ). If there's a 'work' to be done, it is to have faith in Christ.

To trust God is a beautiful expression of our love for Him - and indeed, that's something which He covets (Exodus 20:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2).

I have not seen a satisfactory answer to this question: If the moral law revealed in the OT is no longer binding today why are there so many direct quotes from it in the NT beginning with Christ and continuing in the epistles?

It has been pointed out that there is a difference between Mt Sinai and Mt Zion. Yes, I completely agree. Mt Sinai represents the Old Covenant and Mt Zion represents the New Covenant.

It has also been pointed out that we are not under the Law of Moses but under the Law of Christ. Yes, I agree with that also, but we must understand what the Law of Moses meant to the Jews. It meant not only the moral law but also all the various civil and ceremonial laws, the complete system of the Old Covenant. In that sense we are not under that Covenant. But the moral law still applies today because it is eternal; it reveals God's perfect, holy or moral character and that part of God's nature does not and will never change.

I can understand why some would have issues with the thought of being bound to keep some of the moral law revealed in the OT, because there has been much abuse and invalid carrying over into the Church many Old Covenant practices that should not be preached today as binding. The issue of tithing is a prime example. But we should not throw out the baby with the bath water here.

I have not seen a satisfactory answer to this question: If the moral law revealed in the OT is no longer binding today why are there so many direct quotes from it in the NT beginning with Christ and continuing in the epistles?

After all, the essence of the law is to love God, and to love our neighbour as ourselves. How often have you loved God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind? How about loving your neighour as yourself?

The fact is that we would never come close to fulfilling these commandments by our own strength. Only by living through Christ can that be fulfilled.

Just to clarify I do believe the NT scriptures are in a sense superior to or more beneficial than the OT scriptures because Christ is more clearly and gloriously revealed in the NT scriptures. So if it came down to a new believer having to choose between reading the NT or OT I'd definitely recommend choosing the NT first.

And in the NT the true spiritual nature of God's moral law is also more clearly revealed than in the OT. But the OT also contains much of God's moral law and is still "profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work"-2Tim.3:16

Paul says that the law is holy and good - but we fulfill (or establish) the law in our lives not by living under law, but by living unto Christ through His Spirit.

After all, the essence of the law is to love God, and to love our neighbour as ourselves. How often have you loved God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind? How about loving your neighour as yourself?

The fact is that we would never come close to fulfilling these commandments by our own strength. Only by living through Christ can that be fulfilled.

Of course we cannot obey any of God's law in our own strength but only through faith in Christ and by the power of His Holy Spirit who indwells us. But we still need the Word of God as our guide, don't we? It's not just us and the Holy Spirit without the Word of God, is it? The Holy Spirit works faith and righteousness in us through the hearing of the Word of God-Rom.10:17.

Hi Oracio,

The Old Testament encompasses much more than the Mosaic law. It is very much a portrait of faith (c.f. book of Hebrews), and of God's abiding love ('chesed' in Hebrew).

Paul sums up the purpose of the law in 1 Tim 1:8-11:

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."

Some might fear that asserting a Christian is no longer under law will encourage him to put off all moral restraint and dive into a lifestyle of sin. I can identify with that... but what stops the Christian from sinning?

Is it law, or is it grace?

The law reveals what sin is, and in many cases it concurs with the conception of morality already written on our hearts (you didn't need the Mosaic law to tell you that stealing is wrong!). However, it cannot confer power to lead a holy life. In fact, Paul says that the law provokes our flesh to sin even more! (Romans 7:8, 1 Corinthians 15:56)

Meanwhile, in Romans 6:14 - "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace." And this grace is not some abstract fluffy notion, it is inextricably linked with the Giver that is Jesus Christ!

Brother Blaine wrote:

Thus Paul declares that we are under a different law. The law of Christ, sometimes referred to as the law of love.

God has always required of man that he love God and out of that relationship man would love one another. This precept was established by God when Christ created Adam and Eve.

The law of Christ does change the circumstances of man, in that, without the Spirit, man cannot please God. Therefore man cannot fulfill God's demand of man...that man love God.

Something I came across by a guy called Dustin Horstmann:

"People of all world religions and philosophies can make quality decisions to do the right thing based on a moral standard.

But Christians have victory through Christ and therefore embrace Him, the Root of all their fruit (holy motives, quality decisions and efforts).

Christians are meant to understand so much more than a standard of living. They are meant to know the Life of Jesus Christ.

Without Christ, holiness degrades into self-righteousness, hypocrisy and defeat.

Jesus is not simply an example, but the very Source of victory and new Life. He is the bread from Heaven. He came to set people free from sin, from not being truly loving. We must know Him in this short Life. We must proclaim Him in this short life. Not ourselves. Man always sets himself up as the answer, appealing to fallen cravings, leading to a Lifeless life.

We must proclaim Christ! It's when eyes are set on Him that the Spirit moves, that everything makes sense, that Life happens. O Life, you cannot mistake it. You cannot argue with it. It takes you into its arms.

Embrace it. Embrace Jesus Christ."

His testimony on how these truths instantly set him free from pornography addiction - in two parts:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12776628/dustinandsunny.com/testimony-session1.pdf

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12776628/dustinandsunny.com/testimony-session2.pdf

i tink is realy a dead issue in this fourm as we all believe in the bible and agree with all the verses givern here ,and we all know are are not under the law ofmoses as the children of isral are ,,but what oraca and i are trying to say and that which is seems to be igrored is that there are many quots from the new testament that are direct quots from the mosaic law ,,can we have here will to adress those verses and give and exposision on them
eph
2HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

be great if one could start with this verse

1 Cor.19-22
For though I am free from all
men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became like a Jew, so that I might win Jews, to those who are under the Law, as under the Law THOUGH NOT BEING MYSELF UNDER THE LAW, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, THOUGH NOT BEING WIITHOUT THE LAW OF GOD BUT UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST so that I might win those who are without law, To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak, I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some

Caps are for emphasis only.

Brethren two things that I have put in caps to emphasize in the above verses.

First Paul says that he was not under the Mosaic Code.

Second Paul says not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ.

Thus Paul clearly sets forth a change in law relationship after his conversion to Christ. He sees himself as being governed by Christ and not by Moses.

Paul used the same term in Gal. 6:2 where he exhorts his hearers to bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ.

But he clarifies what he means when he says, "though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ." In other words, Paul is saying that even though he is not under the Mosaic law-system, he is still not WITHOUT THE LAW OF GOD(meaning the eternal moral law) and he calls it the law of Christ. Again, Christ upheld and enforced the moral law of God as something unchanging in nature.

I believe the law of Christ is found in Mat. 22:34-40 where he states that the greatest commandments are love of God and love of neighbor. .

Thus Paul declares that we are under a different law. The law of Christ, sometimes referred to as the law of love.

Brother Blaine,

What particular passages was Paul talking about when he said,

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Brother Blaine,

Paul would have been referring to the O.T. messianic texts that spoke of the Messiah Jesus.

This interpretation does not stand.

Paul himself says that the Holy Scriptures are able to make Timothy wise for salvation. What were considered the scriptures brother? Definitely not the NT which was not even put together at that point.

Jesus himself said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it.

You're understand of what is considered old covenant is wrong. The jews knew that the first 5 books were the law of moses. Everything afterward was not. Then you had the writings. Finally you had the prophets.

And the theological base on which you build your practical rejection of every single verse in the OT is shakey at best. I love you, but I am telling you the truth.

You have to step beyond the scope of understanding of almost every verse you have quoted in order to maintain your position.

The jews knew that the first 5 books were the law of moses. Everything afterward was not. Then you had the writings. Finally you had the prophets.

Amen, very good point.

The Old Testament is the word of God. But meant for Israel. Binding only on Israel.

Christ had such a high view of the OT scriptures, and the NT teaches us to have a high regard for those scriptures. It is a very important part of God's Word. It is sad to see such a degrading attitude toward that important part of God's Word. The whole Bible is God's Word to us not just the NT. But the civil and ceremonial laws do not apply to us as we clearly see taught in the NT.

Oracio,

Just curious. Are you of Reformed suasion?

Blaine

Just because Paul is quoting out of the Old Testament does not make it binding on the believer. If the O.T. is quoted in the N.T. It is a Christ centered truth to be lived out in the reality of Jesus.

I understand a lot of people are confused about this subject. I don't claim to have all understanding on this issue, but I would like to share some of the things I've learned on this topic.

First off, I keep seeing the term "moral law" being used here. I'm unaware of a single verse that uses that term. The law of Moses is the law of Moses. We have no authority from scripture to break up the law into moral, civil and ceremonial sections. I addressed some of things being talked about in a prior post in this thread. It seems to have not been read thoroughly by some?

I would like to share a few things that might help people look at the bigger picture and understand the 2 covenants better.

The Old Covenant doesn't begin in Genesis 1. It begins 430 years after Abraham.

Gal 3:17
This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

I thought the old covenant started with Genesis 1 for a lot of my life, and I know a lot of christians think the same thing.

Another very important point. When was the new covenant put into effect? Most think the new covenant started in Matthew chapter 1. It doesn't. Jesus was born under the law. The new covenant was ratified when Jesus died and I would say fully realized on the day of Pentecost.

Hebrew 9:15-17 (This passage is speaking of Jesus)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This passage has cleared up a lot of confusion I've had over this issue. The new covenant was not ratified until Jesus died. This explains why Jesus said some of the things he did. You will find as you read what Jesus said that some things refer back to the law, other things point forward to being justified by believing in Him. While Jesus was alive it was a time of transition from the old to the new. Why did Jesus talk about the law and tell people to keep it on some occasions? Because the new covenant wasn't in effect yet! There couldn't be a gap in covenants or chaos would have broken out! So when he spoke of being righteous by believing in him, he was speaking of what would be fully realized upon his death and resurrection! Other times Jesus used and the and took it beyond what they knew it to mean in order to show them it was impossible for man to be righteous and accepted by God according to the law.

People often refer to the verse where Jesus says that he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. They take that to mean we're supposed to be under the law too. That's not what Jesus means by that. What I believe Jesus means by that is that He was saying the whole law was in effect for Him and he kept the whole intention of the law! He fulfilled God's requirements. Most notably he LOVED people! Paul says that LOVE is the fulfillment of the law. For example if I was to take a test to be certified in something, if I just threw away the test, I didn't pass or fulfill any requirements. That's why Jesus said he didn't abolish it, he took the whole "test." He didn't side-step the issue.

Here is some helpful verses from Romans 7. This is from the Amplified bible, I find this passage particularly helpful for this topic.

Romans 7:1-6
Do you not know, brethren””for I am speaking to men who are acquainted with the Law””that legal claims have power over a person only for as long as he is alive?
2 For [instance] a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies, she is loosed and discharged from the law concerning her husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be held an adulteress if she unites herself to another man while her husband lives. But if her husband dies, the marriage law no longer is binding on her [she is free from that law]; and if she unites herself to another man, she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by [what] the Law [makes sin] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, [a]in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh), so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].

These verse are a pretty good summary of the new covenant life! Especially take in what verse 6 says!

Another verse talked about is the one where Paul tells Timothy that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

People say that refers to the old testament and indeed it can. Here's an example of how the old testament writings help us today. In Galatians 3:13 we read that Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Well what is the curse? How does the curse manifest in life, what does God mean by that. Well, we go to Deuteronomy 28. Here we will find out what the curse looks like! So the old testament is very, very important to us today, we're just not called to live under it!

As is said in my prior post, the believer is not required to live under any part of the Mosaic Law. Is there things that Moses said that God has also put into the new covenant? Absolutely! But those things don't get their authority from the law of Moses, but they have authority today because God through the Holy Spirit had them put into the new testament!

Brothers and Sisters, this mixing of the covenants keeps people from the raw, amazing grace and power of the new covenant! Let us not make Christ's sacrifice and death meaningless by going back to the covenant that was the placeholder until HE showed up.

-Andrew

First off, I keep seeing the term "moral law" being used here. I'm unaware of a single verse that uses that term. The law of Moses is the law of Moses. We have no authority from scripture to break up the law into moral, civil and ceremonial sections.

Is there things that Moses said that God has also put into the new covenant? Absolutely! But those things don't get their authority from the law of Moses, but they have authority today because God through the Holy Spirit had them put into the new testament!

Just a quick note here. Just because the Word of God does not specifically call certain laws civil, ceremonial and moral does not mean they are not so. The same argument could be made regarding the Trinity and other truths that we have derived from the clear teaching of God's Word.

Blaine, when I make reference to the moral law of God I am not referring specifically to the Ten Commandments. The moral law is not just seen in the Ten Commandments but also in other parts of both the OT and NT. But it is one moral law of God. God is perfect and holy and He commands us to strive after that same holiness, without which we will not see the Lord-Heb.12:14.

if Christians aren't required to obey the law like the ten commandments and the other moral equivalents Paul commanding the children his letter to Ephesians 6: 2; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3;SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH. becomes a fasle teacher and a hypocrite ,,,because he is LITERALY superimposing that particular law on vulnerable children ,and even saying that the promise of the old covenant command is still active and available and giving them a good reason to obey that law he didnt say just go with you spirit and what in your heart like some would say
Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. ,,

Paul so crystallizes this command from god through moses by saying you can have faith that god will keep his promise

i really believe blain that because your own flavor of theology and tradition pemeating your mind ,you would read that and and say Paul's not really meaning that the command to honer your father and mother is binding and neither is the promise still applicable .he really means something else

that is baloney exegesis,,isagesias really

how would you preach a expository sermon on that one verse ,if you gloss of it so quickly

i love topical preaching and teaching ,as the spirit leads ,, but expository teaching and teachers at least dont gloss of half the bible or challenging text like the one above

i like how Paul interpreted the above verse in eph 6;2 the command from moses and applied it to more then likely gentiles by saying living long on the earth and instead of being prolonged in the land of Israel ,,amassing that Paul by the holy spirit widened its application from the original context ,,thats new covenant application and thinking by Paul showing how the promises and the moral laws still applies but in a fresh new way amassing stuff and very edifying ....
what was paul realy saying was he saying you will live long on the earth as in the children will grow Grey hair and make it to 90 years or was he saying that this promise of the old has new covenant meaning as well a spiritual meaning ,, was he bringing to mind that 1000 year rane on the earth with Christ as the reflection of the glory to be revealed contrasting the shadow of the old with spiritual of the new

whats does it mean ,,well its seems we do no that Paul placed importance on that command and the promise from the law of moses , it means that for sure

International Standard Version
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

whats striking my mind right now is that fact that those commands were givenbeforthey entered the promise land

this promise land is the shadow of heavenly thousand year rane ,this is our blessed hope land that god is giving us who obey him as well as children in the lord

well im sure we will find out soon enough

what we do know though is that a child may well obey his parents in the lord and honer them and be marted ,or sleep for some other reason wile still young so it is hard to say that Paul is saying they will live long on the earth till they go greay ,and it is questionable that the first old command meant that in a simple reading because it was obviously a generational context about Israel remaining in the land

but it was worth pondering for me

Brothagary,

it is interesting that Paul only refers to the command in a positive manner. i.e. If you do this, there is a promise of it going well with you. He doesn't say that it will go badly with you.

Its almost as if God is saying test me on this one, very much like tithing. Its not about the curses, its about the promise. For all of Gods promises in Christ are Yes!!

rookie,

you made reference to Hebrews, that passage of scripture is what was in the heart of Jesus towards his Father. When he preached on this earth it was not his benefit but for ours.

To keep the law, any of the law is impossible and the more you have a revelation of how exact it is the more you will simple just marvel at what our God has done for us and continues to do for us in Jesus Christ.

This is a muddled mess.

I am going to try to interject some clarity into this discussion.

Before I say anything, there are a couple things I want to point out.

1) Merely asking "Do Moses and Jesus Have Equal Authority Over the Believer?" is silly. I assume by "Moses" you mean the books that he wrote--the Torah/pentateuch/first 5 books of the Bible and by Jesus you are referring to the new covenant. No believer in this thread has advocated that the new covenant is inferior or subservient to the old covenant. No one.

**************

There are several different outlooks on the law and grace.

The first outlook is this: The new covenant is merely an addition to the old covenant. Therefore the old covenant law is binding upon a believer, but the sacrificial portions of it are fulfilled by Jesus. We still must rest on the Sabbath, tithe, and put fences on the roof of our house. We also should abstain from catfish, pork, etc. Righteousness, holiness, and salvation are gained by works and maintained by works. Faith is coupled with works and produces salvation.

An equation to sum up this view is this:

Faith + Works(Righteousness and Holiness) = Salvation

They view every stitch of scripture as rules by which to live.

No one on this thread is advocating this position. Not one single person.

The 2nd outlook is this: Jesus is a continuation of the old covenant. He has fulfilled the law in our stead and has revealed the true purpose and point of the law--proving that we are sinful. Righteousness and Holiness are gained through faith in Jesus Christ, which are a result of salvation. The law is written upon our hearts and by truly loving God and loving people, we walk in holiness.

This equation shows this position

Faith = Salvation(righteousness) + Works(Holiness)

The view of the scriptures is that all of them are binding upon the believer, but all of it is routed through the atoning work of Jesus Christ. So there must be a sacrifice for me to be atoned for--Jesus fulfilled that. I must honor the Sabbath and keep it holy--Jesus is the fulfillment of that. I must love my neighbor. Jesus is the fulfillment of that. I must not lie. Jesus makes that happen. The old covenant is fulfilled in Christ and the law and it's true intent and purpose are written on the hearts of believers so that by loving God and loving our neighbor, we fulfill all of the law through Jesus Christ.

A 3rd view is this: Jesus cancelled the old covenant totally and instituted a new one. The OT law has been abolished and the "Law of Grace" has been instituted. In this view salvation is gained by faith in Christ. None of the OT law is applicable to the believer. Only what is found in the new covenant counts.

This view is highly compatible with the 2nd view. However, I have NEVER in my life heard the idea that the entire OT was the law. Pslams, proverbs, Ruth, Lamentations, Micah, Daniel, all get lumped together as "Law". So if this is the standard stance for New Coventant Theologians, then this is where the breakdown occurs

**************************************
We can all agree that salvation is attained by faith alone.

We can all agree that righteousness comes through faith in Christ and by no means through the fulfillment of any moral actions (law or not).

We can all agree that those who are truly converted should not live by rules or regulations, but in Christ through the Spirit.

So we need to quit debating about whether the OT law is binding on the believer or not. No one in here says it is.

***************************************

The REAL issue is the authority of the scriptures.

Let me, once again, post what our brother Paul of Tarsus said to Timothy:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Let's not skip and dance around this anymore.

Everyone agrees that the OT is divinely inspired. However, this verse also says that it is:

1) Profitable for Doctrine
2) Profitable for Reproof
3) Profitable for correction
4) Profitable for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
5) Makes us complete
6) Makes us equipped for every good work.

You can't avoid that. The OT is useful and I CAN derive doctrine out of it without being pegged a legalistic Christian.

So let's look at what Jesus said about fulfilling the law in it's context:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Saying that this simply means that Jesus came to live under the law is not accurate. Every stitch of the law AND the prophets has been / will be fulfilled once the end comes. All of it, but it will be fulfilled in Christ. Not in our own efforts. From Genesis to Malachi, all of it will be fulfilled in Christ. It hasn't all been fulfilled yet. Reading any of the OT prophets and the Psalms will prove that. Even Genesis 3:15 hasn't met it's entire fulfillment yet. Look at what the writer of Hebrews said in regards to the old covenant rest vs. the new covenant rest:

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

According to the author of Hebrews, the word of God is a "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Sounds like he is deriving doctrine from it. As did Jesus and Paul and the other NT writers who made reference after reference and gave quote after quote of the first 39 books of the Bible. AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.

Also, dividing the law into moral, ceremonial, and judicial law is merely a means of explanation for how the law relates to believers. I never use it, personally. Just like using the water, steam, ice explanation for the Trinity can be useful, it doesn't totally explain how it all works.

As believers, the law is written on our hearts. They have been put into us.

I don't murder people. I just don't do it. Why? Because the law says not to? No! Because I love people and I love God.

I also don't seek vengence. Not because I am better than everyone, but because I love people and I love God.

I seek justice for the innocent. Is there a verse in the NT that says explicitly that I should do that? No. I do it because I love God and I love people.

This is the law written upon our hearts brothers and sisters and the OT is slap full of examples of how to live that out!!

God read Hebrews 11 and see how much the OT is refered to. He isn't taling about law! He is talking about the examples that God has given to us.

Paul said this same exact thing:

Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Not only is Paul appealing to the OT, he is appealing to the first 5 books of the Bible, wherin the Law is contained! Not only that, but Paul said, "they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

You CANNOT escape the reality that the OT is useful for us.

You have to maintain BAD THEOLOGY in order to do so.

blain you keep building the same straw man as havoc said and oraco and i said ,,we are under grace in the new covernnt ,why keep insisting we are saying somthing else we obviusly beleiev every word of scripture esecial the new testament ,,,

but that aisde just to throw a spaner in the works remeber also it was jesus who spoke through moses to bring the old covebnt to effect ,he was a prohert

what insane memeber would disagree with idea that we need faith and the holy spirit like you said .,,,,,,your just baiting people to contine talking ,,,go through the posts againg and see if we are saying moses rules our heart or we dont need the holy spirit or the faith of christ w are still under the old covent

go cheack brother ,no one has even iplyed that in the slighests you debateing blood bought children here brother

havok: Thank you for your post. I think you brought some clarity. I might add a few things, or at least say a couple of things in different words.

The OT in its entirety, the law, poetry, and prophets, are most definitely written for all of us to profit by. You simply cannot cast aside these books as some have tried to do over the years. In fact, you CANNOT understand salvation and the new testament without them. How many HUNDREDS of times did Christ, Paul, and the other NT writers quote the OT?

And, the OT is not synonymous with the old covenant. The law, that which is specifically found in the first five books of the Bible is the written manifestation of the old covenant and it is included in the old testament for obvious reason. So we have to somehow separate the law from the rest of the OT writings when scripture deals specifically with the law.

This law does have application for us today, but we must be careful to seek out what the Bible says about this application. The law is good if it is used lawfully, that is, if it is used for its intended purpose. Paul makes it very plain and very clear in Galatians that the law was not meant to make us righteous. If righteousness came by the law then Christ died for nothing. Whence forth serveth then the law?...... If we continue with that passage we find that the law was meant to condemn us of sin. It was a holy standard that was, in the flesh, unreachable. Paul speaks of his utter frustration and sense of despair in trying to be righteous by the works of the law in Romans 7.

There is no Biblical basis for a division of the law into ceremonial and moral statutes. This is a man-made construct and is read into scripture by a priori belief rather than read out of scripture as plain truth. Obedience to every portion of the law is demanded or one has broken the whole law. If you fail to sacrifice the correct animal on the correct day it is all the same as if you have murdered under the law.

This being said, we are not bound to obey Moses in the ten commandments any more than we are bound to obey Moses in sacrifices or in what we eat or wear. Remember that the ten commandments specifically are referred to by Paul as a ministration of death. The ten have the same purpose as all of the others.

I think the reason this bothers many is that they are looking at the situation through carnal eyes and carnal reasoning. "But if we take away the necessity of keeping the law and the accompanying punishments then we will have a lot of people who will go wild and live in sin." The problem with this thinking is that it totally removes the rebirth from the equation.

When a man is reborn, he now has the law of God written in his heart in a way that he could never have had the carnal law written in his mind. Remember when Jesus spoke on the mount and brought the written law to a whole new level? He said that looking on a woman to lust after her was the same as if that man had committed adultery with that woman. A born again man will not look lustfully without his spirit smiting him with guilt over having done so and he will be repentant over having done so. He will seek NOT to look that way again. He will battle his unregenerate flesh in the process, and he will often struggle, but there will be a strong desire NOT to look lustfully. Why is this so? It is because he has been born again. In his heart is the strong desire to follow God in all things and live holy before a holy God. A man like this will not continue to live in sin. He CANNOT continue to live in sin because he has been born again.

Look at it this way. If I have the Holy Spirit of God living in me and my spirit has been born again, will I not by the governance of the Holy Spirit keep the law? If I am reborn, will I not keep the law by the power of the Spirit of God rather than by the power of my flesh? And, I will walk in the righteousness of God. You see, the law that we find in the Pentateuch is only a shadow of the righteousness and holiness of God. Look at it this way. Do we really think that the holiness of God is equivalent to our not eating a kid seethed in its mother's milk or our not picking up sticks on the Sabbath? Those things are carnal ordinances meant to discipline and condemn a carnal man.

I think I would introduce a new equation to the mix. Not a mathematical equation, but a chemical reaction.

Righteousness -> Good works and holiness

Righteousness (being born again) yields the fruit of holiness which is good works.

Great post, Travis!

It has been implied that Christ gave new laws in the Sermon on the Mount, such as laws against hatred and lust which were not part of the OT. But was it ok to hate others and lust in the OT? Of course not. Jesus was giving the true spiritual intent of the moral law so that the people could see they were truly sinful in their hearts and in need of a Savior. The religious leaders had twisted the law and focused on external performance; they had clouded the true meaning of the law and Christ was correcting their understanding.

Brothers and sisters, is not the OT also the Word of Jesus Christ? Who spoke through Moses and the prophets? What about the writings and the prophets? Are not those writings also part of God's Word to us today? For example, what do we do with commands like these:

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil."-Proverbs 3:5-7

"Do not enter the path of the wicked, And do not walk in the way of evil. 15 Avoid it, do not travel on it; Turn away from it and pass on. 16 For they do not sleep unless they have done evil; And their sleep is taken away unless they make someone fall. 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, And drink the wine of violence. 18 But the path of the just is like the shining sun, That shines ever brighter unto the perfect day. 19 The way of the wicked is like darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble. 20 My son, give attention to my words; Incline your ear to my sayings. 21 Do not let them depart from your eyes; Keep them in the midst of your heart; 22 For they are life to those who find them, And health to all their flesh. 23 Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life. 24 Put away from you a deceitful mouth, And put perverse lips far from you. 25 Let your eyes look straight ahead, And your eyelids look right before you. 26 Ponder the path of your feet, And let all your ways be established. 27 Do not turn to the right or the left; Remove your foot from evil."-Proverbs 4:14-27

Are we to just discard those commands as just being applicable to Israel in the Old Covenant?

This idea of trying to separate our Lord from His Word in the OT is very concerning for me to see. Granted it is not as bad as trying to pit Christ against Paul as some try to do today. But it is still very serious I believe.

But there is another concern I have seen here, namely, trying to separate Christ from His Word even in the NT as not that binding on us; saying that God's Word even in the NT is not that necessary because it's more about a relationship with a Person. We cannot do that because God's Word reveals to us who He is. It can be comparable to saying, "I believe in and know Jesus but I don't believe it's that necessary to obey His commands". We know that's impossible.

David wrote, "For You have magnified Your word above all Your name"-Ps.138:2. The reason God places such a high honor on His Word is because it reveals His name, it reveals His character and purposes. Jesus said if His Word abides in us then we are truly His disciples. Faith comes by hearing His Word, whether reading it or hearing it read or quoted or preached.

Also, it has been stressed that the main thing for Christians today is to love God and our neighbor. Yes, but the Word of God gives us specific commands and instructions on what that looks like and what that means, besides the command to love God and love our neighbor. God knows that we have thick skulls because of the fall and we need specific and repeated instruction on specific areas of life and godliness. Otherwise He would have simply said to love God and love your neighbor and that's it, but we know He didn't just do that.

Brothers and sisters, we denigrate God's Word to our own peril. May God have mercy on those who do that.

Blaine: I guess I would put it this way. If a person asked you why they needed to be saved, what would you say to them? Could you explain their need for salvation without the record of the fall and original sin found in Genesis? If a person were to ask you why he needed put faith in Christ and why his own good works were not enough for him to be accepted by God, could you explain it to him outside of bringing up the contrast between the old and the new covenant?

The writers of the New Testament quoted the Old Testament writers over and over again as they taught the new covenant. There is foundational understanding of who God is that we find in the Old Testament. I think we also need to make the distinction between the rebirth and an understanding of what happened to us when we were born again. One can be born again without a full understanding of what is involved in our salvation. One does not need to study the OT in order to be saved, but one does need the OT to fully understand what his salvation means.

Oracia,

The 2 greatest commandments are to love God and love people.

But Jesus also said this, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

The 2 work together. If you really love God, of course you are going to do what He says.

Also, the degree to which we love God is related to the degree to which we truly keep His commandments (and that digs even into our thoughts and intents).

Agreed havok, first we must have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts through a relationship with Him before can keep His commandments. My concern is with an attitude that denigrates God's Word as merely ink on paper. I agree that the emphasis should not be on the ink and paper. But the words handed down through ink and paper are of vital importance.

Brother, no one is denying the vital need of the ministry of the Holy Ghost to quicken God's Word here. But you cannot separate God from His Word that endures forever-1Pet.1:25. The Spirit works with the Word and not apart from it, this is clear in Rom.10:17 and other parts of God's Word. And no one is saying one must only or necessarily read the Word in written form, as that is only one way of hearing the Word. But nonetheless it is the Word of God that is declared and heard and believed.

We all agree salvation comes by faith and it is a marvelous work of the Holy Spirit. But faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

These words are the entirety of the Scriptures made alive by the Holy Spirit.

sounds great brother ,but his apostals also said all scripture is god breathed and probably jesus taught around 60 pecent of what was taught through the law and the prophets when it comes to moral teachings
the bible didnt say the old testamant was the shadow ,,but the old covent was the shadow

so if we ,as you said lisen to jesus and the apostals they point back to the scripture of old that what paul was refeuring to when he said all scripture ,,the bible is clear about that ,wether you are like me or not and favour the new testament or not ,the bible is still clear about that ,, i rarely ever quote from the old testament from memory

I can never fully appreciate what Jesus my high priest is and has done if I never study the levitical priesthood.

I can never fully appreciate the Jesus the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world unless I study what the sacrifices meant.

The OT is types and pictures of Christ, lets keep that in the forefront of our minds.

Friends, we are talking past each other here.

Everything in the OT, everything is interpreted through the lenses of Jesus Christ being the messiah. We don't look at the OT to find out how to live, we look at the OT to see who our messiah is. With this mindset we gain a small glimpse into Pauls statement: Christ in You the hope of Glory.

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."-Colossians 2:16-17

Notice that no mention is made there of any moral laws, laws which are written on the heart of man. Paul doesn't say, "let no one judge you in not committing adultery, murder, stealing, etc."

Paul only mentions there laws from the Old Covenant that have to do with outward ceremonial rituals. He says clearly that those things are a shadow of things to come.

To assert that the moral law of God which was written on the heart of man was only a shadow is to misinterpret and misapply the Word of God. Nowhere do we see that taught in the New Testament. Again, to the contrary the moral law is reinforced as applicable to the believer and non-believer today as always. It is transcendent and eternal because it is a vital part of God's holiness. God does not change in terms of His moral perfection. He never has and never will change or lower His standard of goodness. He will judge humanity by that standard. If we are in Christ we are made perfect in Christ who perfectly kept God's law and took our punishment. Those who die outside of Christ will be condemned to eternity in hell for violating God's moral law since they refused to repent and trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior.

What about the unfulfilled prophecies in the OT?

Did the new covenant drop those too? They didn't all get repeated in the NT.

Blaine, notice the very next verses in that Romans 2 passage you referenced:

"who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."-Romans 2:15-16

What "work of the law" is written in the hearts and consciences of Gentiles who do not have the written law? Is it the types and shadows of Old Covenant outward ceremonies? Of course not, right?

God will not judge humanity only for rejecting Christ. Rejecting Christ as Lord and Savior will be part of the reason SOME will be judged. But what of those who have never heard of Christ and die in their sins? They will be judged for lying, committing adultery, murder, etc., again, because they have the moral law of God written on their hearts and are without excuse.

If anything it will be because they are rejecting God in creation as Paul lays out in Romans 1 in the later part of that chapter.

So rejecting the God of creation and sinning against His moral law are the first reasons for God's judgment. Those who have heard of Christ and have specifically rejected Him and His sacrifice will have to endure more of God's wrath in hell.

Isaiah 2:4

Ezekiel 37 & 38

Daniel 9:24-27

Daniel 12

*****************

Those are a few that I found.

I'll shoot you straight:

My issue is that they are largely unfulfilled at this point and there are some details of their fulfillment in the NT that are either missing or not repeated. So if the entire OT has been abrogated, then that means there are details of future prophecies, not specifically repeated in the NT that went unfulfilled.

The moral law and.I assume you mean the code of Sinai is not written on the hearts of men.

Again, one of my main points in this thread is that some of the Old Testament teaching on moral purity or holiness is still applicable and binding on people today because God's moral law does not change. The New Testament makes this point crystal clear all throughout.

And another main concern is with a general denigration of the Old Testament as a whole. If it was not that important why did the apostles teach from it and carry over much of the teaching from it into the NT? God could have given us the NT without so many quotations on moral purity or holiness from the OT. The OT was highly treasured in all the early churches. Why such a low view of it now? It's unbiblical.

Oracio,

Do you mind if I email you? I would like to get a better understand of "moral law" without bogging down this thread.

Thanks!

Of course brother, you can email me anytime.

Thanks Travis for your earlier post on page 7 - that was beautifully written.

(one correction - I think it should be "*holy* ordinances meant to discipline and condemn a carnal man.")

I believe that the proof of the pudding is in its eating - right theology would lead to right living, and vice versa...

i also remeber my experence in a pentacostal church that was all about the spirit there theam was hering gods voice

the paster ended up going through a court battel for decieveing a youg girl of many thousads of dollars to renavate his house and build underneath his house

spirit on its own with out good theoligy will led into deception and possesion

I remember my experiences in a Baptist church of a certain theological persuasion. Their theme was right theology produces right action.

Tragically the two main teaching elders were caught in a five year homosexual affair. The church never recovered from that experience.

Theology or the Bible us nothing without the Holy Spirit.

Clearly they did not have right theology nor right application nor were they walking by the spirit.

I am sure this particular church claimed to be reformed. However they obviously did not believe "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."

I have the Spirit. Why am I faulted for pursuing a solid theology as well.

How can one separate right theology from the power and ministry of the Holy Spirit? A right understanding of scripture is impossible apart from the Holy Spirit. This is the whole point that Paul is making in 1 Cor. chapter 2. The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit. And, a person cannot rightly walk in the things of the Spirit of God without being submitted to the word of God, for the word is Spirit and it is life.

I have never seen a person or a group who focused on an intellectual pursuit of doctrine to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit that did not eventually get off course to one degree or another. Recall MacArthur's implication that Pentecostals were not even saved. And I have never seen a person or a group who focused on the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of sound Biblical doctrine that did not eventually get weird or flaky. Just look at many in the Apostolic/Prophetic movement.

Right theology does not automatically produce right action. Spiritual rebirth bears the fruit of holiness as the believer submits himself to the word of God, the Spirit of God, and the body of Christ for mutual instruction and edification. We BECOME righteous by regeneration. We then bear the fruit of what we have become as we submit ourselves to God and learn to walk in the Spirit.

Unfortunately there are many who have good doctrine that get carnal and walk after the flesh. There are many who have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit who get carnal and walk after the flesh. There are many who have been deceived into believing that intellectual pursuit and an informed decision to convert to Christianity is somehow synonymous with regeneration. There are also many who have been deceived into believing that an emotional experience is synonymous with regeneration and the power of the Holy Spirit. These things are just not so.

Edit

I bow out. Thanks for the discussion. I love you guys.