When in US history did the shift begin...

greetings

I was speaking with another brother and he was talking about the decline in morality in the United States, how far we have come and fallen away from beliefs that were once held on to. I am talking about, life having value, marriage being until death do us part, intimacy was something shared only after marriage, children being taught to respect adults, not lie or cheat, people watched their language, heavy drinking was looked down upon ect.

My question is when do you think in our history as a country the tide turned and attitudes shifted. I realize being moral does not make someone saved, I also realize that through history there has always been an underlying group of people who embraced rebelling against what is "considered" normal and moral to society. What I am wondering is when do you think the attitudes changed and this spirit of rebellion was embraced by the majority of people instead of just the minority?

If we truly want to see our country return to GOD it has to begin with those who claim to be HIS, submitting and obeying HIM daily...

God bless
maryjane

edited the title :)

There was a book published in 1938, "The Universal Church And The World Of Nations" Manufactured in the USA by Plimpton Press. This was a collection of essays which sought to define an agenda, or game plan, with the intent of gaining control of different populations through changing the "call" of the Christian Church. One of it's contributors was John Foster Dulles.

John Foster Dulles and his brother Allen Dulles were in many ways the "influencers" behind the many programs that are still impacting our nation today. The work of the CIA from the end of World War II forward has been one of the main sources of the corruption you speak of. From the creation of LSD and it's injection into the generation of the 60's to the promotion of continuous war, this nation has suffered greatly at the hands of those who created the CIA. We are being tossed to and fro, so that we will cry out for peace, and there will come an man that will deceive the people into thinking he will finally bring peace to this nation. The purpose of the "rebelling influencers" is to create the turmoil to prepare the sheep to accept there system.

Righteousness in the bible is based on the fear of the Lord, and obedience to His commandments.

Morality and ethics without submission, reverence, and humility before God is like chasing the wind, deceptive, and the end thereof is death.

I agree with frank- the downward spiral began in Eden and there was never a chance of turning it back, only stemming the tide. We can argue about how effective the church has been at stemming the tide, but I think humanity as a whole was destined from the beginning to be in the state it is now.

Whether God planned this from the beginning is another discussion as well.

As a purely practical matter, it seems to me that the more recent hastening of the downward spiral began around the time that TV shows like Andy Griffith, Father Knows Best and Leave it to Beaver went off the air and were replaced by more liberal-minded shows in the early 70s like All in the Family, etc. I don't think the power of the media in all this can be underestimated.

by appolus on 2014/7/27 19:18:16

Hi MJ, perhaps the seeds of destruction were sown in the very beginning..........bro Frank

_______________

Greetings Frank

I was thinking on this as I was reading over some historical letters and diary entries from Christians around the time of the revolution. There were those at the time that did not believe it was right to break off from England or rebel against the king. They firmly believed that as the BIBLE tells us to submit to authority was the right thing to do. Its interesting to note that some of the earliest arrivals to the new world who were Christians suffered much injustice by wealthy business owners back in England but never did they consider fighting back, instead they paid the monies demanded of them and counted it as joy to live unto the LORD JESUS.

In reading history you can see a real trend or turning of attitudes in this country by the majority of the people beginning to happen I think around the 1900's. From there it is a very rapid decent into where we are now.

It does give one pause when you look at time lines of events that happened in this country and cause me to consider where we might be in 5 or 10 years down the road if we continue rebelling against GOD.

God bless
maryjane

Passerby said:
________________________________________________________
Righteousness in the bible is based on the fear of the Lord, and obedience to His commandments.

Morality and ethics without submission, reverence, and humility before God is like chasing the wind, deceptive, and the end thereof is death.
___________________________________________________________

Amen to that! No fear of the Lord or His commandments = no desire for righteousness = no wisdom = death.

The fear of the Lord is the 'beginning'. No fear is the 'end'!

Just as we have spiritual markers in our life that brings us along in our walk with the Lord; so there are markers in our nation that took us away from God. These are changes in our nations stances and as you ask, morality.
2013 - US Supreme court all but legalizes same sex marriage and opens up the path to do away with individual state Defense of Marriage Act;
1973 - abortion is legalized;
1963 - Madelyn Murray Ohare sues the Baltimore public schools to remove Bible from public schools; Supreme Court legalizes rejection of Bible in public schools;
1933 - Prohibition is overturned;
Great Awakenings in the 1700's; 1800's; and spiritual movings after 1904, nothing nationally since

until,
dan

HezWelling listed:

"22 November 1963"

Allen Dulles worked on that one.

Maryjane wrote:

"In reading history you can see a real trend or turning of attitudes in this country by the majority of the people beginning to happen I think around the 1900's. From there it is a very rapid decent into where we are now."

The Robber Barons were in large part responsible for the shift. Just like the East India Company corrupted England so too, these Barons began to corrupt this nation. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. If you read from Scriptures, the same reason is given for the fall of Israel.

God never allows things to just happen. He selects the leaders of the nation, for good or for judgement.

America has always had internal issues. From Slavery to women's rights and so on. I think America had its major cultural shift during the 60's and it has only snowballed.

John

Brother Frank wrote:

What you see in nations, including America, is their wickedness coming to fruition. The Scriptures tell us that God is not mocked. What a man sows a man reaps. This is also true of nations including America. It may not seem that way for hundreds of years, but what lies beneath the surface, what was sown, will spring forward and at a time we could not foretell, but God knows and is not mocked. Our day is the beginning of reaping..."

The Book of the Judges is a good reminder of what you wrote above.

There are faithful generations, followed by fundamentalists, followed by ignorant and rebelious generations.

It is not just the United States, all of Western Culture is rejecting God. I hear that the Church in Europe is like in the days of Elijah.

Every generation right from Adam has been mostly wicked. Even in the small town I live in (about 30,000 people) I only know 2 christians. I know lots of people in church, but I see no fruit in their lives. (I don't go to any church, because I can't find one that preaches the Word of God). I ask some of these professing christians, "do you know God?" and they say "yes". I then ask, "what has God been saying to you lately?" and almost no one can answer that question. They try to change the subject or sidestep around it. If God does not talk to you, you don't know Him. It's that simple.

Greetings

Thanks for sharing everyone. I often consider these topics since I love history and as a homeschooling mom teaching United States history topics and discussion come up.
Its always good and interesting to see what others are seeing.

God bless
maryjane

Greetings rookie

We did a unit study not to long ago about the Robber Barons and their part in shaping our nation. Very interesting stuff, your right the corruption and greed for money was a huge part in how things played out.

Thanks for the suggestions in your earlier posts. Will look into that book, I did see that it can be read online.

God bless
maryjane

i think the major shift took place with the envention of the tv,, the 1920s

I think the real shift came when the Robber Barons left private industry and slithered themselves into government.

The three pillars of prosperity are (1) freedom and opportunity, (2) energy, and (3) morality.

When government and industry conspire to shut these down, people no longer ride the rails of industrious hard work- they slide into the same corruption as their leaders. Poverty and slavery are the inevitable result. Without a spiritual awakening, there can be no hope. Friendship with the world is enmity with God.

The good news- Jesus is exactly Who He says He is, and is listening for our prayers at this very moment!

Greetings Frank

Wow! I had no idea that Henry Ford supported the Nazi or was such a hater of the Jewish people. I did read much on how Teddy Roosevelt broke up big companies like Rockefeller but as you said the fundamentals remained the same. At the core of it all is greed.

As we study history, especially US history I am seeing that money and greed can be traced back to much of the corruption we deal with today.

I was reading just this morning how many modern day medications that are used and given out to people, labeled as safe by the government all so the pharmaceutical companies will keep their profits. Its sad to think that even human life has been reduced down to dollars....

Thanks I leaned something new and interesting today.

God bless
maryjane

It is common these days to blast away at America, pointing out her ills and failings which are many. But I will not do that without some balance from the other side.

The history of the world has been the pursuit of wealth and comfort, nothing new under the sun about that. But the American experience has demonstrated a collossal shift from the traditional methods of attaining wealth- Conquest and Plunder.

In America, based on Christian principles, we used capitalism which has a strong component of human trust. Capitalism is the banding together of resources from those who buy in to produce profits shared proportionally with the investors. In addition, under a government of freedom anyone can participate and innovate their way to great financial gain. But there is another great guiding principle that makes this work-

Competition!

Under Conquest and Plunder there is no such thing as private property. You keep what you have by being stronger than the one who wants to take it from you. With the protections of private property, if someone wants what you have they need to compete in the marketplace to win away your customers. They have to do what you do, provide goods and services, with better quality, lower prices, quicker delivery.

This competition sets Capitalism apart, because it is the one system that confronts the reality of human greed without killing people!

As you might suspect, I am a participant in the system, and let me enlighten you on what it does to my character.

I get business because I sell high quality goods at low prices with quick turn-around. I pay attention to my competitors, and make sure I am doing a better job than they do, and it is fun to see them beat me once in a while- forcing me to innovate my way back to the top.

But I must give my customers more than those basics, I have standing in the community that demands I be honest and generous. Is it any wonder that Americans have a legendary reputation for generousity, and a sharp ear for scandal? Bad press can wipe out a business no matter how well they compete, our system demands (I speak from a theoretical standpoint) integrity from the competitors!

That's why so many grand institutions, hospitals, universities, and benevolent organizations exist in the American experience, we crave the honor and respect gained from being a benevolent people.

Of course there is the usual corruption of the world, many do it out of pride, spite, hopes of greater gain. So what? They as individuals will answer to God at their own time of judgement, but their works provide great benefits to others they don't even know.

Are the snivelling "have nots" at any moral advantage here? Those who despise the rich and take of the benefits providing nothing to help others?

When the Master gave the talents to the servants and went off to receive His kingdom, He told them to invest what they had while He was gone. When He returned He called them all in to give account of what they had done with the money. The one who had the five talents reported that the five had been invested to earn five more, the man with two had also done well and had made two more. Both were given equal praise, and rewarded with honor.

Interesting what happened to the third guy. After a scathing condemnation of the Master, he told how he had hid his one talent in the ground and was returning the whole thing to Him. The man had not produced anything, had given himself to bitterness, and missed any opportunity for prosperity. But I am struck by what the Master did with the talent thus returned from it's time in the ground.

He gave it to the guy who had the ten talents!

Capitalism is just a system of exchange, but it has an explosive potential for good as well as evil. It is men, those to whom God has given talents, who are responsible to make the good happen. It is just so much easier to do under Capitalism than other oppressive systems like socialism.

Socialism is just another Conquest and Plunder scheme, with fun names like "wealth redistribution" and "paying your fair share." It has no route to prosperity or excellence.

I believe free market capitalism is a fair interpretation of the work ethic born out of Judeo-Christian history, and the parables of Jesus specifically. Sin is in the world, and greed is the great furnace of production. But Capitalism is the one economic system that takes that greed into account and limits its destructive effects.

I can understand why Satan is so eager to besmirch it.

But I also stand amazed at the way it has produced the most generous nation on the face of the earth. America may have some pretty ugly warts, but the peoples of the whole world are clamoring to get here to get their share of it.

I may offend some here who vigorously disagree. But my time in overseas combat fixed within me a love of this country that will not go away. My first citizenship is the Kingdom of God, but my earthly home is in America.

Sidewalk wrote:

I may offend some here who vigorously disagree. But my time in overseas combat fixed within me a love of this country that will no go away. My first citizenship is the Kingdom of God, but my earthly home is in America."

First, thank you for your sacrifice.

Secondly, I agree with your view of economic liberty. But with that said, we have long lost the practice of free markets. While some may still enjoy free market activity at the local level, Crony Capitalism is the norm. And what we have today will lead to living in a country where the differences between America and other nations will disappear.

The United States has entered into a system that resembles more closely the view of this individual...

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

People like Henry Ford, Herbert Hoover, A.P. Sloan,and Prescott Bush supported and assisted the rise of the Nazi in Germany with the goal of turning back the tide of Bolshevism. Always with an eye to gaining ownership of Asia's natural resources, these men used Fascism to overthrow Communism.

Even after World War 2, the United States actually assisted Nazi war criminals in relocating to the United States. They were given new identities and used by various intelligence agencies to promote political and economic instability in nations all over the world.

Both sides of this ongoing economic war is a work of Satan. He is a destroyer of mankind. And the love of money, for which these two groups strive against one another, has killed millions of people who are the pawns in their chess game.

Jas 5:1
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!

Jas 5:2
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.

Jas 5:3
Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.

Jas 5:4
Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. [fn]

Jas 5:5
You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as [fn] in a day of slaughter.

Jas 5:6
You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.

Brother Frank wrote:

'The robber barons were merely the pure nature of capitalism....greed. Henry Ford came along, along with Teddy Roosevelt and put an end to the robber barons. Teddy broke them down into smaller more managable pieces, "

The work of Teddy Roosevelt actually pushed the robber barons to look outside of this nation to work their trade. That is why this nation has suffered greatly in all the wars we were drawn into to protect the interests of the robber barons.

Greetings sidewalk

you wrote:by Sidewalk on 2014/7/29 9:17:55

It is common these days to blast away at America, pointing out her ills and failings which are many. But I will not do that without some balance from the other side.
___________

Was not in any way attempting to blast away at America. Although our country does have quite a few ills to be in prayer for. Like I said in my post in studying history and teaching it to my children I find its really interesting to dig a bit deeper. Even in study the Robber Barons, I find studying the individual men very interesting. My interest has nothing to do with capitalism, although I will agree with Frank and say that at the root of what drives governments, companies, and even some men is greed. We can not serve GOD and money.

I have been studying about how other choices like feminism,and just overall rebellion in context to what the BIBLE has to say about it, and submitting to those in authority as well. Using history can be a really good way to help understand some of the principles the BIBLE teaches us as well. My son and I were speaking this morning and he was just saying how interesting it is to see the rise and fall of Israel as they turned their backs on GOD in the Old Testament and how there are some parallels to our own country here. People who give in to compromise, sin, and rebel against GOD.

Anyway thanks to those who have shared.

God bless
maryjane

First of all, thank you MaryJane for setting up the discussion. This is an important topic as it affects all of us, both in America and around the world. I had no thought against you or anyone else on the forum when I noted the popularity of America bashing, quite frankly, we all tend to do it as we observe the moral decline and have a natural interest in the causes.

In America and in Europe we look at the historical events that shaped the course of people and politics, and as Christians we are drawn to the spiritual awakenings on both sides of the Atlantic. I would quickly add also the events in the Pacific as well, seeing the moves of God in China, Korea, Indonesia, and both Japan and India.

But it was the Protestant reformation that has so much to do with the founding of America, and the Awakenings in this young nation were heard around the world. Missionaries from America and Great Britain have affected cultures around the world for blessed good, one such recent example is the hard fought freedom of South Sudan which would never have happened without the difficult but persistent work of the missionaries who went there. They brought Christ, but they also brought ideas for self-sustaining economies and the intrinsic value of human life.

So much of this can be directly traced to the generosity of capitalist Christians whose prosperity and Godly gratitude funded both individuals and mission societies.

The current president of the United States praises regularly the "contributions" of the Muslims to building the fabric of American society.

Hmmmmm. Never any examples...?

Silly me, thinking Americans are generous!

You always read about Socialist countries of Europe rushing all their aircraft carriers to the aid of tsunami victims around the world, treating their physical trauma at no cost in the modern medical facilities on board, and turning thousands of gallons of sea water into fresh.

Or all those countries who sent aid to America for hurricanes Katrina and Sandy.

Mostly Muslim countries as I recall??

Sound of pins dropping...

Here is my point. It is Christianity imbedded into a country's culture that produces generosity, it is the nature and character of a Christian worldview that treasures the individual lives of humans wherever they live. Of course the world is selfish and corrupt, but true Christianity confronts that and causes even the worst of sinners to participate, some with great reluctance, in generous causes.

In America, the demands of government placed on discretionary income have hindered the amount people give, but they give anyway. They over-pay at bake sales, send annual checks to the Salvation Army and the Red Cross, buy lemonade from the kid on the lawn in front of his house.

When there is a local emergency or tragedy, Americans step up, wallets open. Where do you think that comes from? I believe it comes from a heritage of Christianity. Overwhelmingly Americans "believe in God" while living in all manner of Godless pursuits. The divorce rate among born again believers is about the same as for the general population, many churches never mention the issues of homosexual marriage or abortion. Ask an average "Christian" about their prayer life and you will get either a yawn or a chuckle. Americans on the whole are anything but on fire for God.

The giving is probably in decline as the Christian heritage fades into distant memory. But it is a testimony to the great value Christianity bestows on a people who embrace it, though their children in time discard it.

America is probably very deep into that phase, but I will trumpet old school American values as long as I have breath. Giving to the needy means I see the needy, care about their plight, have enough wisdom to realize that when I give, I receive a blessing on another level.

Love that is real can do no less, and love is His command.

Mary Jane,

I understand your question because as a mom we lament the downward spiral of decency, morality and we have children (or grandchildren) that we are raising in the hope they will be able to withstand the rudeness, the immorality that stalks them. We are at odds with everyone - or so it seems. We are like a baby David that is facing a huge Goliath - a David that is just learning to walk. Our task is threatened even by those who claim to be Christians.

We grew up in an era where the term homosexuality was not even understood by teens! If a couple was fornicating they were frowned upon, not celebrated! A pregnant single girl was hauled off to an unwed mother's home and the child put up for adoption. It was a shame for a single girl to have a child - today it is celebrated with ohs and ahs and baby showers. And homosexuality? I am sure it was done but if it was it was only spoken of in whispers.

Courtesy was taught; thank-yous were expected when an act of kindness was done to us. Older people were deferred to. We were taught responsibility. Yes, the public persona was highly polished and protected.

But.

The Preacher tells us in Ecclesiastes 7:10: "Do not say, "Why is it that the former days were better than these?”
For it is not from wisdom that you ask about this."

May I suggest that back then people were skilled in hiding their sins, polishing their public image to a shine? Then when the 1960s came with the hippie movement where the cry was to let it all hang out and morality be hanged there was a ready made generation that was delighted to do so. Then with the help of skilled entrepreneurs - using musicians - they marketed it as something desirable. Sin has gone to seed and there are too many who work to redeem this sinful seed instead of rooting it out and in the process perpetuate it even more.

Still, as moms we wonder what happened that hastened the downward spiral into depravity where it is celebrated and marketed as being normal and where decency, morality is considered unworkable.

Many posters here gave the overall view of what contributed to this situation and I agree it is greed but what does this look like where we live? Many experts will tell you that during WW2 many females, including moms entered the marketplace - got a job outside the home, leaving the children to fend for themselves. This accelerated in the recent 50 years. Children are left to themselves with the idiot box teaching them morality. Since this is the case why are people surprised when children mimic what they are taught via the tube? Adults are no longer shocked with nudity, murder, violence or strife - it is commonplace: people have become used to the dark.

Methinks that if we moms can identify the things that work against us in our mothering it will help us in how we teach our children and what we allow them to see and who they associate with. And we certainly are hoping dad will be there giving leadership to help mom teach her children what it means to walk with the LORD and help them to identify evil when it rears its head.

My understanding...

God bless, you Mary Jane.

Sandra

Greetings Ginnyrose

Thank you for your response. I agree mom going into the work force during WWII played a huge part I think in the breaking down of the family unit. I also agree that children being left to themselves is another example of where we went wrong. And now we have today's government run day care system that only works to erode away the notion of right and wrong and instead teaches what ever makes you happy is ok. We have an entire generation of people who are living for self and sin.

You mentioned unwed mothers and I was reading this morning about how the advancement of birth control has played a very negative role in the deterioration of the family as well. Women's attitudes about being chaste until marriage changed once contraceptives became common and acceptable. Today the pill is a huge money maker and doctors prescribe it to little girls as young as twelve years of age even though it is so terribly bad for you. The world tells women that the pill offers them freedom over their bodies all the while it is silently putting their health at very serious risk.

Thanks for sharing you wisdom here with us. I agree with what you said about the sixties as well. It was all about rebellion and bringing that rebellion out into the open and making it acceptable.

God bless
maryjane

Mary Jane, reading your response reminds me of another vaccine the gov is promoting and it angers me. It is one that supposedly protects one from four different strains (there are 100) of Human papillomavirus. This is just something else the pharm industry is imposing upon the people that encourages promiscuity while at the same time they are feathering their own nest. All this deception, profiteering at the expense of the young is causing me to lose trust in the pharmaceutical industry. I am about as angry as one can get without sinning!

I wonder how much worse can mankind get before God will say, "IT IS ENOUGH!"

Mary Jane, when I see how wickedness is celebrated, promoted - even in churches - I am glad I am not a young person but am instead a few years from my three score and ten.

May you young parents feel and experience the mercy and grace of God in a new, fresh way as you raise your children for the LORD.

Sandra

Brother Frank wrote:

"Christianity was totally and fully imbedded into Britain. Britain sent missionaries around the world. Britain aided many countries in their day."

May I suggest that Britain used missionaries to attain entrance into spheres of economic interests. Britain did not help countries but conquered countries. The British forced China to accept opium as a means of exchange for tea and other fine goods. They sent steam driven gunboats to enforce their importation of opium upon the people of China.

Babylon was alive and well at the height of British Imperial rule.

I don't know how many missionaries Great Britain sent, or to what imperialist purposes, but the ones God sent were fantastic. Gladys Aylward comes to mind- few would suspect her of being a covert British agent.

Derek Prince is another, certainly not much of an advocate for the Royal Church of England.

I recently had an interesting phone conversation with a delightful man from Africa who was looking to set up meetings here in Southern California. His name was Brother Isaac, and I asked him what he was doing.

Very simple. He is a missionary from Africa to the lost souls of America.

Sobering....

"When in history did the shift begin?"

There is a common theme throughout the Scriptures which speak of the righteousness or the wickedness of the people. In Amos we see these attributes of those who have the power over the people...

Amo 8:4
Hear this, you who swallow up [fn] the needy,
And make the poor of the land fail,

Amo 8:5
Saying:

"When will the New Moon be past,
That we may sell grain?
And the Sabbath,
That we may trade wheat?
Making the ephah small and the shekel large,
Falsifying the scales by deceit,

Amo 8:6
That we may buy the poor for silver,
And the needy for a pair of sandals””
Even sell the bad wheat?”

Look around you in this generation do you see what the Prophet Amos is describing?

"even sell the bad wheat" = today, even sell the derivatives based on a pool of subprime home loans. Just an example

Frank my brother! Whoa, easy big fella!

You need to go see Dinesh D'Sousa's film America, and get some perspective. You have been listening to too much leftist dirt, and have perhaps not noticed some of the sweet flowers that God has grown in the manure!

Greed and Capitalism are not synonymous! From the Proverbs 31 woman to Jesus's parables about the minas, wealth is not inherently evil. Even Solomon who sought wisdom over wealth was given great wealth by the hand of God. What men do with wealth is where the judgment comes to the fore, but wealth is the core of prosperity and God is not afraid of our being prosperous. (Word of faith folks have twisted this, but that is another study.)

As I have mentioned before, prosperity is a three legged stool of opportunity, energy, and morality. All three must be present or wealth will exercise its power to destroy.

Beware the leaven of not only the Pharisees, but also of the gnostics. The world and all its resources are given to man for our wellbeing and joy, it is not inherently evil.

Well, I substantially disagree. Yes I am involved in partisan politics for several reasons, one of which is that I own a business and am affected every day by the winds of politics. I am in the gunsights of the political system, and what they do forces what I do. I pay attention because I have to.

But I still maintain that you misjudge the nature of capitalism. Where greed is a condition of the heart that refuses to trust God, capitalism is just an economic system through which people work and invest together to make their living. It has moral neutrality. Add to that its ability to control greed through the principle of open competition, it is the source of excellence.

Bill Gates has become a multi-billionaire, but because of what he did, people like me have been able to make millions. Thank you, Bill!

By the way, I live in California. The state is run entirely by one political party. They pass laws that are so burdensome, thousands of businesses and corporations have fled the state leaving workers stranded, tax bases gutted, streets pot-holed, police forces bare-boned. Gas is the most expensive in the nation, and set to rise another $.50 a gallon in January when more taxes are added. Illegal immigrants are welcome in every city, plundering the hospitals and social services resources.

Greed? Capitalists? When is the government going to be held accountable for its greed?? At least when "greedy" capitalists are allowed to operate, there are jobs and wealth creation. I certainly prefer that to the destructive enforcement of "wealth redistribution."

In the kingdom of God, all this will be nothing. Christ living in His body will demonstrate what love can really do as lambs and lions rest together. The corruption that is in the world will have collapsed itself, and the Peace of Christ will reign. Therein lies my fervant hope.

But for now we fight corruption in ourselves, our neighborhoods, our cities and our country, we fight it on our knees, we fight it in council meetings, we fight it on FaceBook. We fight it by being Christ to the world, giving them some vision of what truth and love look like- because some will see it, rejoice in it, and join us!

We are not commanded to win, just to fight! Or as a previous generation used to sing, "Onward Christian soldiers..."

I believe this is what Sidewalk is speaking of according to Scripture...

The exchange of money for goods and services is documented in the Scriptures. A godly system according to Scripture does not use deceptive means to conduct exchange between people. In God's system, He blesses those who bless Him. He provides for His people. Look to the Law of Moses for examples. And His system does resemble capitalism. The bible is filled with examples of this type of economic exchange.

On the other hand... Brother Frank also is correct in times where this system of exchange is corrupted...

Eze 28:2
"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:

"Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

Eze 28:3
(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!

Eze 28:4
With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;

Eze 28:5
By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”

Eze 28:6
‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:

"Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,

Eze 28:7
Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.

Eze 28:8
They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

Eze 28:9
"Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.

Eze 28:10
You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’”‰”

Eze 28:11
Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Eze 28:12
"Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:

"You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

Eze 28:14
"You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

Eze 28:15
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

Eze 28:16
"By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

Eze 28:17
"Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

Eze 28:18
"You defiled your sancturaries,
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.

Please note that the nature of the King of Tyre took on the nature of Lucifer his father.

Greetings

I just wanted to come back and say I did not mean for this thread to sow any troubles between posters here on SI. I was just more interested in talking history as I am teaching US history to my boys now. We have had some wonderful discussions about the choices people make and how it has changed things. I always want to find a way to teach things and then use the topic to look to JESUS and what HIS heart might be on any given matter. Our history books like to make some historical figures out to be hero's, perhaps they were but in the end they were all men too. Apart from JESUS there is nothing good. I want my children to understand there home is not here but we belong to the KINGDOM of GOD alone.

Anyway as I said I am sorry if my thread has in anyway cause anyone to stumble or sin. Please forgive me.

God bless
maryjane

Have no fear, MaryJane!

We wrangle here in the love of Jesus Christ, having different opinions molded within us by the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, of lives touched by different blessings and different stabs of pain. One can deduce from our styles of writing that we are not of the same mind, but committed to the same Christ. He will receive us all, will judge us fairly, will gently lead his lambs into all truth.

Back to the fray...

I can see that little can be gained in continuing the argument for capitalism and its role in prosperity. For what it is worth, shooting the torpedoe at Dick Cheney, a Christian gentleman of wealth, wisdom, and a gentle spirit is repugnant to me.

When Vice President Cheney advocates for a strong national defense, he does so in view of his knowledge of just how dangerous the world is and is becoming. He is not advocating the starving of children as the Master of Ridicule insinuates. He does not see feeding children as a function of government at all, that is the responsibility of parents in the pre-socialist American system. He only suggests that the responsibility of the federal government is to ensure the safety of the people against all potential military threats. That is both complicated and expensive!

And without a thriving free market capitalist system, we will not be able to pay for it.

The day you are looking down the barrel of some aggressor's gun and realize everything you have and even your own life now belongs to someone else, you may have a moment to think back and say, gee- Dick Cheney was right!

Here's a little quote from Milton Friedman to think about:

A bit of Milton Friedman in honor of his birthday today ....
"Fundamentally, there are only two ways of co-ordinating the economic activities of millions. One is central direction involving the use of coercion””the technique of the army and of the modern totalitarian state. The other is voluntary co-operation of individuals””the technique of the market place."
"Indeed, a major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it does this task [protects individuals against coercion] so well. It gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."

Your witness, counsellor...

Ya got me there! Is it Detroit??

As I think through European politics, and it would be easy to put those following this into a bleary-eyed coma if we go too deep, I see very little that has much economic attraction. Your phrase, "controlled by unions" is scary enough as those who would be a society's entrepreneurs are already on the bus heading out of town. Why should I build it if you are just going to take it from me? The old standard of Conquest and Plunder has new clothes but its heart is unchanged.

Great Britain is largely socialist, still believing that high taxes will yield prosperity if the right people are in charge. Meanwhile, the Muslim population grows and strains against the limits of the public dole. A while back the queen sent up a trial balloon to see if she could tap into welfare funds to help heat Buckingham Palace. The British public was not amused.

France decided that the rich should pay 75% of their income to the government. Whereupon the rich decided there were other places to live. Many have already left, taking their money with them.

Germany is socialist, with very high taxes to fund their vision. But they are very clever, and don't tax their exports. It makes their high quality products very competitive worldwide, and funds the programs at home.

Italy is still waiting for a stable government to last more than a few days. Hard to generate wealth when you have no idea who is going to steal it from you tomorrow.

Switzerland. Lots of money there, but much of it is being hidden by people who don't live there and the largest currency in Switzerland is... secrecy!

My guess for richest country would be Luxembourg. With an average annual income of about $80,000, it is largely union run with the "Confederation of Christian Trade unions."

Their motto, "Man at the Center of our actions."

They must be Pentecostals.

Back in 1986 I moved from frigid Minnesota to California with my wife and four children in a creaky old motorhome. I had no job waiting, just the belief that with hard work and the blessing of God we would be fine.

I stumbled through some attempts at jobs for a couple years, then decided to strike out on my own to start a garment business. The purpose was never to get rich but to be able to raise the children and squeeze in as much ministry as I could. A large part of my confidence was that in a capitalist society, I could do whatever I wanted without getting some government or union boss's permission. As long as I followed reasonable standards, I was welcome into the marketplace.

For me, the American dream comports easily with my own Christian standards. My work is honest, my ministry all above the table. My competitors control my "greed" as it were, because my customers are free to seek other vendors of the things I sell.

Everybody wins. I know I am wealthy because all my needs are met and I always have some to give away. Don't worry, my account numbers on the computer at the bank don't get anybody very excited...

Brother Frank posted:

"The Richest Presidents Of All Time - Inflation Adjusted:"

These men all were poor in comparison to:

Gen 14:14
Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

What about Job, Joshua, Hezekiah, Solomon, and David?

Well, shame on me! Bad person, Sidewalk! Bad, bad, bad!

Gotta love Sermon Index! Never a shortage of friends to pulverize your testimony and rub it back to you with salt!

I guess to MaryJane's original question, when the shift began- perhaps it was when we Christians forgot to love one another! Not sure when that happened, but we'll just have to deal with the realities that confront us.

It's been a fun thread, MaryJane, thank you. I guess we've all learned things.

This is my personal experience as I have grown older...

I lived in Southern California for most of my early adult life. I have been a union member all of my adult life. I now live in Pennsylvania and still part of the union and am still employed in the skilled trades.

For about 24 of those years I spent in California I constantly saw the economic world through a Fabian Socialists influenced environment knowledge base. Then one day a Conservative Mennonite family moved from Lebanon County Pennsylvania to the mountain where I lived. They started a home construction business in our community. I had been a Christian at that point for about 7 years. But I had never witnessed anyone who actually viewed their economic enterprise through Biblical precepts. I saw a part of life which I had not witnessed prior to the Martin Family setting a thriving business.

The story is long, but this I attest to...their form of conducting business, according to Scripture, more resembled a form of capitalism than the Fabian Socialism I was accustom to. I saw the Lord bless the entire community through the honest hard working enterprise that this family lived by.

So I stand in affirmation in the liberty that Sidewalk has begun to experience in his own life.

Brother Frank...(not trade union brother Frank)

To further explain the Martin family business, they were honest to the point where one of my friends contracted them to build him a house. My friend was not a believer and though he is still not a believer...he testified of his experience of dealing with the Martin family in this way...

"They are painfully honest."

Whenever there was a question to the quality of their work on his house, the Martin's basically gave him the shirt off their back to make things right.

Further, the quality of the homes that they built surpassed anything the local population had ever witnessed. So their business thrived. The Martin family through their business was able to open a kids camp to minister to the disadvantaged children from LA and Bakersfield area. Through the profits of the business the Martin family traveled to Central America and opened up a similar ministry.

And then, the sons of the Martins came of age, and were sent out to establish a business and ministry in the Central San Joachin Valley.

And then, further, some of my brothers in Christ were given jobs locally building houses with them. My brothers were trained in both the skills and business concepts, with the goal of teaching them to go out on their own and establish small businesses for themselves.

These experiences opened my eyes to see God's economy in a new way. God's call comes with provisions to accomplish His work.

Just a thought Brother Frank,

Jeff

Brother Frank asked:

What was/is your trade?

HVACR