Should Persecuted Christians Defend Themselves? By Michael Brown

Laying out both sides of the issue:

http://mobile.wnd.com/2014/08/should-persecuted-christians-defend-themselves/

In luke the greek for "sword" is a small knife used to cut animals for meat. Definitely not a sword to help defeat an human enemy.

If this definition is correct, wouldn't we have to translate the other 18 uses of this term in the New Testament as a small butcher knife as well? This is only on of several literal definitions of the term sword, the others being non-literal representative of wars and of armed violence in general.

I think this is one place where believers must be convinced in their spirit what they will do. I think at its core this debate is the same as the debate over military service with the exception that we are now speaking specifically of defending ourselves against religions persecution. I know of many churches where there are men with concealed carry permits who are prepared to protect the members of their congregations against violence. I don't disagree with this. If someone were to enter my home and attack my family, I would do all I could to defend them. If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back. Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally.

Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally.

This is exactly how I think about this issue, Travis.

If it’s OK for a distant country like America to bomb them, so why isn’t it OK for local Christians to fight them?

This is a thought provoking question, found in the link. I see a couple of ways to respond:

1) We ask: What makes it okay for any nation to bomb?

2) Of course it's wrong for "local Christians" to fight the enemy! It's stupid: You're going to lose! Persecuted people do not have power advantages: That's why they get persecuted. They are easy targets/scapegoats. (apart from the God-factor)

The moral of the story is this: Fight only if you're bigger than your enemy, or you imagine yourself to be! It's an issue of power!

I'd like to see a nation fight the enemy with Gideon's army of 300, or Jehosephat's singing army.

Describe the weapons these people deployed?

Diane

travis wrote:

"If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back. Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back. It may sound inconsistent, but it is the conclusion I have come to personally."

I agree 100%. There is no inconsistency, at least not IMO.

quote: "I'd like to see a nation fight the enemy with Gideon's army of 300, or Jehosephat's singing army."

That would indeed be awesome- but in both those cases God told Jehoshaphat and Gideon exactly what to do and promised them victory.

For some reason I don't think God will tell Obama exactly what to do.

Will He tell us as individual believers exactly what to do? He might, and He might not. So we are left with what our best understanding of scripture is in these matters, and the leading of the HS.

"When you have a right-standing relationship with God, you have a life of freedom, liberty, and delight; you are God’s will. And all of your commonsense decisions are actually His will for you, unless you sense a feeling of restraint brought on by a check in your spirit. You are free to make decisions in the light of a perfect and delightful friendship with God, knowing that if your decisions are wrong He will lovingly produce that sense of restraint. Once he does, you must stop immediately." ~Oswald Chambers

Gen 14:14
Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Gen 14:15
He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.

Abram knew the times in which he lived. He prepared beforehand, in the event that he had to protect his family.

And what does Scripture say....

Gen 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

Gen 14:19
And he blessed him and said:

"Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 14:20
And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

According to Scripture God was with Abram, both the Father and the Son.

Jesus is the same always there is no such division between the God of the OT and the NT.

Bear like Travis said there is a distinction between personal affronts and being overrun by madmen.

Thanks for posting that rookie

Bear you are right on this. We are only called to forgive.It does not come natural to flee and forgive and keep on forgiving.Let us choose to go with the high calling now so when the fighting starts God has those with a pure testimony. Jesus loves his enemies for such were we before we believed.

Right persecution for the faith should not be met with retaliation.

Which is what Travis and I were saying.

If I understand the question here it is should a person defend himself, his family using violent means that could easily result in death of someone?

One can appeal to logic, another to history, another to Scripture all wrapped up in emotion and or conviction.

Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?

During the time of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia and later, Mennonites were victims of bandits led by Nestor Makhno that rode through their villages raping and killing as they went. Some decided the use of the sword was called for and justified. They did use it but they came to a tragic end.

In hindsight the people who survived the atrocities visited upon them, who returned good for evil are considered the heroes.

I am beginning to understand more deeply the truth of the statement made by Richard Wurmbrand: "If God wants you alive, no persecution can kill you." I would understand this to mean life, everyday living - if God wants me alive no cancer, no accident will kill me. Once my time here is finished God will allow anything to come my way to snuff out my life.

The Apostle Peter is an excellent example of this principle. He was imprisoned but delivered by an angel. Later he was crucified head down. God was not through with him at the time of his imprisonment; He had more work for him to do and once that was done, He stepped aside and allowed him to be ruthlessly killed.

My understanding...

Sandra

This IS a perplexing issue... especially in light of what we are seeing in Iraq, but one thing comes to mind:

When the jews first declared genocide on Christians.... If Stephen had been armed and had murdered his asailants, amongst them was Saul who later became Paul... he would have aborted one of Christianity's greatest apostles. Likewise, when Saul was going from house to house pulling out Christians for genocide... if one of the "brothers" had defended his home and murdered Saul ... 14 books of the new testament would have been written by another chosen vessel... and the "hero" who obstructed God's plan in order to save his family? Where would he be?

I’m baffled:
1. Why is "defending ourselves/loved ones” equated with doing violence to the other (the perceived threat)? Does that not impose an even greater risk of harm? People have a tendency to retaliate!

2. Why would the spiritual armour of God (Eph. 6:10ff) not be considered practical in real life? Is this not talking about POWER! (Note the word POWER in Eph 1:18-21)

If America was attacked by Muslims who were conducting what they deem to be a holy war, I would fight back.

Could it be that God is using our "enemies” to humble our "side - as in the Old Testament Israel? It seems dangerous to assume that we are on God’s side in these matters, for in fact, we may be under his hand of judgment. What is the solution then ”“ the best means of "defending” our own?

Yet, if someone approached me on the street and struck me specifically because I was a believer, I would not strike back."

For some reason I don't think God will tell Obama exactly what to do.

Diane

Sister wrote:

"Does it not seem odd that given the diversity of opinions on this issue that one reads little how Christians succeeded in subduing their enemies while defending themselves with carnal weapons?"

Jos 2:10
For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.

Jos 2:11
And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

From Scripture we find that it all depends on what God is doing. We often compare ourselves to the Apostles yet the vast majority of saints are called to a different ministry.

Is it right to judge another's calling based on your interpretation of the Scriptures.

What of the men like David and Job, what was their calling, what did God require of them?

Job 29:7
"When I went out to the gate by the city,
When I took my seat in the open square,

Job 29:8
The young men saw me and hid,
And the aged arose and stood;

Job 29:9
The princes refrained from talking,
And put their hand on their mouth;

Job 29:10
The voice of nobles was hushed,
And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.

Job 29:11
When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

Job 29:12
Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
The fatherless and the one who had no helper.

Job 29:13
The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
And I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.

Job 29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.

Job 29:15
I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.

Job 29:16
I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.

Job 29:17
I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.

The calling of men differs from that of women, the calling of men differs between men, some are called to protect and break the fangs of the wicked.

I watched a video on Krav Maga (Israeli Self Defense System) and really wanted to take it up. I was praying for the Lord's heart on this issue, but thought that the Lord would not want be to take this up as I should be turning the other cheek!

Days later, I was reading my Bible in a park not far from my home and the presence of the Lord was real-Far stronger than an average Bible reading time.

As I was heading home and could see 4 young men in the distance, as they got nearer 3 of them engaged in me in conversation, and the other one wandered off to my side. (a common tactic) He then charged at me with a flying punch, which missed, and I tried to run, but didn't get too far.

As punches and kicks rained down on me, I vowed that if I got out alive I would be taking up self defense classes.

The Lord preserved me, and though badly bruised and face swollen at the time, no lasting damage was done.

As I say, meeting so sweetly with the Lord, was I'm sure His way of saying this is in my will.

I remember being in the hospital and thanking the Lord for what had happened to me.

I did take up self defense lessons and truly think this has helped me in my growth into manhood. As a protector.

Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight. (Psalm 144:1)

And should a similar attack occur, like the above that had nothing to do with my Christian faith, then I would definitely defend myself and others without any pangs of conscience. (even striking pre-eminently if I was convinced I was going to be attacked.)

If it was however connected with my faith (E.g. somebody slapped me whilst I was distributing gospel tracts) I would turn the other cheek.

It definitely is not a one sided issue. Ever more so with our persecuted brethren. I would be praying for the Lord to reveal His will for any given moment.

That's my two cents.
God Bless

My better judgment suggests I stay out of this one, but I do have a couple thoughts.

First off, there is the supreme example of our Savior willingly submitting to the violence that took his life. There is a call to follow in those steps, and history is full of inspiring accounts of those who also willingly allowed themselves to be sacrificed in some way that won blessing and good things for others. God has a unique ability to use the suffering of His servants for greater good.

But much of the interaction among sinful men is based on force. If somebody wants me to do something, to think and act a certain way, they can use either reason or force. Interesting that in the formation of the American governance, it was always expected that reason prevail through free elections, public meetings, careful deliberation and open votes on legislation.

But reason is time-consuming and expensive. Sometimes force is introduced to speed things up- such as the passing of the Affordable Care Act where we were told by a particular government leader that "We have to pass it to see what's in it." It was legislation forced through, and it is reaping a whirlwind of trouble- because it suspended reason.

Force has a way of overpowering reason, and making insistence on it's own way. It is for that "reason" that the means of force need to be balanced. Reason is great, but balanced force helps make sure reason still works for the good of those involved.

When Johnny thug comes into my home at night and wishes to force himself on my family and property, my .38 pointed at his head means we are back to reason from force. I have no wish to kill him, but he is now in a position where he must convince me with reason that he is more entitled to my stuff than I am. This conversation will be very, very short.

I have been in the interesting position of holding an M-16 set to full auto in a Vietnam firefight. I was protecting my friend Doug as he crawled out into an open space to retrieve a fallen fellow soldier. While I never pulled the trigger, I would have- without hesitation. It was what I would have had to do right then.

Another friend was on a patrol in the jungle and happened upon a North Vietnamese soldier who had paused to rest and eat. As John came up with his rifle, he and the man exchanged a stare. The man's AK-47 was just a hand's length away, but he could not get it into position to shoot John before he would have been blasted. Yet while looking at John he began to reach for the rifle.

"No no," John warned him, with a smile and a gentle nod. The man's war was now over, he was alive and a prisoner, and when the rest of John's men came on the scene John had a few minutes to just wait with the man.

Out came the pictures of loved ones, some sharing of food and water, a strange communication of lovingkindness. John is a Christian, but what had happened here was that force was safely laid aside so reason could work good things. As I recall, this was Christmas Day 1969.

John's Vietnam story was not over. In the following February, John was in another firefight, his last. During the battle, an enemy soldier threw a grenade into the protected pit where John and several others were firing. John saw it, grabbed his helmet, and dove on the bomb with his body pressing down on the helmet over the grenade. The explosion vaulted his eviscerated body high in the air and left him in a bloody heap right there in the pit. None of the other men were hurt, but none of them expected John to survive his sudden act of bravery. They loaded as much of him as they could onto a stretcher, and sent him off to medical- painfully grateful for how he had sacrificed his life to save theirs.

Been a lot of years now, but John is alive and fairly well. He is a Medal of Honor recipient, still has a sweet love for Jesus and a profound gentleness that wouldn't hurt a soul. We share an inner knowledge that understands how Jesus fulfills Isaiah's "A bruised reed He will not break and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish" and the gospel accounts of a raging bull with a whip overturning money changer tables.

My experiences in combat burned a passage of scripture into me,
"There is a time to heal, and a time to kill."

I trust the Holy Spirit to guard my heart that I may never fail to hear and know when those times come.

"Come let us reason together..." Good words from God through Isaiah.

May the day quickly come when swords will be beaten to plowshares, but until then as Thomas Jefferson succinctly observed, "Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who do not."

Amen Sidewalk. Thanks for sharing that.

Thank you, TMK! If you are interested, you can watch John tell the story- (a bit differently than how he has told me) in a 9 minute video. Just Google "John Baca video" and it should come up.

He doesn't press his relationship with Christ in this one, he is somewhat non-confrontational... but you can hear between the lines.

Thank you for sharing Sidewalk!

Concerning the question of whether or not
a Christian should serve in the military and
be involved in combat, there is a great movie
that deals with this subject. The movie is
the true story about the World War 1 hero,
Sargent York. Before being drafted for
military service Alvin York was a rough
country boy that spent most of his nights
drinking and fighting. While stopping into
a church one night, he was gloriously
saved, and there was a dramatic
transformation that took place in his
character and behavior.

When Alvin York was drafted into the Army,
he went in as a conscientious objector. One
of his commanding officers was also a
devoted Christian and gave him a leave of
absence so that he could pray about his
situation. After seeking God's will in prayer
, Alvin York relinquished his status of
conscientious objector, was made a
Sargent and sent oversees into combat.
In a fierce battle where his unit was pinned
down by German machine gunners,
Sargent York along with several other men
captured a large number of German
soldiers and snuck up behind the machine
gun nest. When they were spotted and
were under heavy fire , Sargent York
began picking them off one at a time.
The result was that 7 American soldiers
ended up with around 120 German
prisoners.

Every man must follow his own conscious
in these matters. We know that in the
American Revolution, many pastors and
clergy preached from their pulpits support
for the reveloution.

Mike

And Thank you, Abide!

Sergeant York's story is one of the best, and it serves to illustrate the most important point of our discussion. Hearing and responding to God.

We could hit the whole range of particularly Old Testament accounts of the battles, the captures, the rebellion and the submission that resulted in the killing of thousands of people, the saving of more thousands, and in the midst of it all God is speaking to men. Some of the time He is telling them to kill, no doubt about that. Yet we know His love is always to the good of the men He created and loves, who can comprehend it all?

I was being accosted by a couple of thugs one night on a dark street in St. Paul Minnesota in 2010. I was with my Christian friend Mark, we were by his truck waiting for my sister to bring the car around where she was to pick me up for a ride to her home. My mother lay dying in the inner city hospital less than a block away and we had been there together.

As the men moved in on us, way too close for appropriate conversation, one of them began asking Mark about the truck. Mark responded as if it were normal conversation, but he was as uncomfortable as I was. The tension was thick.

I am old, way too old to scrap it out with a young thug. As I raced through my options, I calculated a way to kill or seriously damage the guy quickly so that I could help Mark with the other one. But as Mark tells this story, his thug suddenly looked beyond Mark and his eyes popped.

"Come on, Aubrey!" He said. "Let's get out of here!"

And they hurried off. We were greatly relieved. Mark believes the man saw an angel behind Mark and it freaked him out! That works for me, it was all over in a flash.

Maybe I should have been praying more, and planning my attack less?

Anyway, Mark is a great servant of Christ and I am glad to have been with him that night to see the power of God in action.

Sidewalk,

I watched the video and it was a blessing, no need to cover for John's perceived lack of the "repent message." The love of God in John's testimony is self evident.

God according to Scripture uses many way to cause men to cry out to him. My father testified that he was surrounded by North Korean infantry, he was in command of a machine gun crew. He cried out to God to save him. He and his fellow platoon surrendered that day. He spent six days in captivity before he successfully escaped.

My dad never talked much about being in the two wars, but his heart was surely soft.