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The Jesus Movement vs. The Emergent Church by Steve Gallagher

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sermonindex

The other day I was contemplating some of the similarities of the Jesus Movement of the late Sixties and the more present day Emergent Church””perhaps in the same way a sports fan would compare a current baseball team with one from the past.

Both of these Christian movements had their respective leaders and proponents. Chuck Smith is considered the father of the Jesus Movement, although David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, Keith Green and others also played a large part in its development. The Emergent Church also has its proponents and organizers: men such as Donald Miller, Rob Bell, Tony Campolo, William Young and Brian McLaren.

Both movements have been enormously successful: spawning denominations, launching contemporary music styles and deeply affecting the corporate mindset of the Evangelical world of its day. The respective influence of the two groups of men mentioned above has been enormous. The Jesus Movement was even featured on the cover of Time magazine!

However, the main resemblance between these movements is that both grew out of the youthful skepticism and disenchantment of their day. While the Jesus Movement reached out to the confused young people caught up in the drug subculture, sexual revolution and anti-war movement of the Sixties, Emergent leaders have attempted to connect with church kids that have become disillusioned with the hypocrisy and lifelessness they have sensed in much of today’s Evangelical world.

Here is where the similarities end, however.

While the leaders of the Jesus Movement attempted to make Christianity relevant to the young people of their day, they never did it at the expense of its foundational truths. In fact, I don’t know of any two ministers of the past century who preached the message of the Cross with such fearlessness and piercing conviction as did David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill. Moreover, I can’t think of any minister of the Twentieth Century who has exhibited such love as Chuck Smith and yet did it without deviating from sound doctrine.

By contrast, Rob Bell and his Post-Modern friends have made careers””wildly successful careers at that””out of challenging orthodoxy. They have correctly pointed out the lack of life and power in much of the modern church but, rather than calling Christians back to the ancient paths where true revival is always birthed, they have appealed to the disenchantment of today’s young people by casting doubt on the very foundational truths of Scripture.

Take the hot topic of homosexuality, for instance. In straightforward fashion, Chuck Smith calls it "a perverted lifestyle.” Although he is the ever gracious "Papa Chuck” who exudes the love of Christ for sinners of any kind, the message he communicates to his audience is that Christianity demands, at the least, a sincere striving toward righteous living.

However, because Western culture has taken up gay rights as its cause, Emergent Church leaders””ever sensitive to the world’s frown””cannot get themselves to denounce it. "If we think that there may actually be a legitimate context for some homosexual relationships,” says Brian McLaren, "we know that the biblical arguments are nuanced and multilayered, and the pastoral ramifications are staggeringly complex. We aren’t sure if or where lines are to be drawn, nor do we know how to enforce with fairness whatever lines are drawn.”

Huh? Why do I feel like I’m listening to a politician when I read this kind of gobbledygook? It very much reminds me of my days working with inmates in the Los Angeles County Jail. There were times that I knew I was being conned””even if I couldn’t necessarily pinpoint any particular lie. I get that exact feeling when reading many of the writings of these Post-Modern preachers.

The common denominator among false teachers of all ages is the desire for acceptance from the world. "Woe to you when all men speak well of you,” Jesus exclaimed; "for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.” (Luke 6:26)

Outright falsehoods are bad enough, but even worse (and more dangerous) are teachings that subtly nudge people toward errant belief systems. The sense I get with these teachers is that they don’t have the courage to face the criticism of godly believers so they camouflage what they really believe behind a lot of doubletalk.

How far different was the sense one got when listening to men like Chuck Smith, David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill. I have read their books and have listened to hundreds of hours of their preaching and I can honestly say that I have never had the feeling that they were being anything other than completely forthright in their beliefs.

I recently gave a message entitled, "The Three Great Woes of Hell.” I opened it by mentioning Rob Bell’s book "Love Wins,” in which he brings into question the clear cut statements of Christ regarding hell. I said something to this effect:

"It is interesting that no one argues the existence of heaven. It is only the existence of hell which is questioned…

My guess is that this man has a long history of deceiving himself.
My guess is that he has never been to Calvary with his own sins; never really faced the blackness of his own heart; never really humbled himself before God.
My guess is that it is his own hardened, unbroken heart that has established the basis of all of his teachings.
My guess is that he has a long history in the ministry of telling people what they want to hear.
My guess is that he has never taught people the whole truth; that his notion that there is no hell is just one more in a long line of deceptions.”
So, what is the real difference between the Jesus Movement and the Emergent Church? From my perspective it is Calvary. The message I heard when I came to the Lord through the Jesus Movement in 1970 was that I was a sinner who must repent of his sins. The message I seem to hear from the Emergent Church is that everything I’ve been taught through Scripture over the years is questionable and must be viewed in light of today’s culture.

I think I can understand why Rob Bell claims that truth is "springy.” Because the truth he adheres to in life is wishy-washy and based in the fluctuating opinions and viewpoints of the current (but passing) culture he wishes to appease. What he doesn’t seem to grasp is that biblical truth is as solid as the Rock on which it stands. "Forever, O Lord, Your word is settled in heaven. Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations…” (Psalm 119:89-90)

read more: http://www.eternalweight.com/the-jesus-movement-vs-the-emergent-church/

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TMK

Just to be completely fair, Rob Bell does not teach that there is not a hell, at least to my knowledge. I don't think it is fair of the author to state this just to make a point.

B
brothagary

Did i miss something tmk did the article say that bell said there is no hell..

the emergent apostasy is a better title for that movement ,thats being fair

S
sermonindex

Brother Gary,

Just wanted to highly recommend to you a spell checking tool to
install on your computer there are many free ones for every platform.
It is hard sometimes to understand what is being written because of
many simple spelling errors.

http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/services/spellcheck/
http://www.iespell.com
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/spell-checker/

https://support.google.com/toolbar/answer/32703?hl=en

Trust that helps.


---

Towards the article it is clearly proven from Rob Bell's writings that he teaches and believes there is no eternal hell. A simple search on the internet will show that to be true.

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TMK

Hi Gary...

From the article: "My guess is that he has never taught people the whole truth; that his notion that there is no hell is just one more in a long line of deceptions.”

I don't disagree with the gist of the article but I do think he misrepresented what Bell teaches. I have read Bells book and he does not say there is not a hell. He does however definitely call into question the traditional view of hell.

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brothagary

I thought i might have missed something

B
brothagary

Greg, I've been using one that you gave me a while ago, can't remember what its called. I think i forgot to use it on that last post.

S
sermonindex

Rob Bell’s denial of eternal punishment goes hand in hand with a warped view of the gospel. No wonder. Each error fuels and exacerbates the other. Eliminate every hint of punishment for sin; ignore the wrath of an offended deity; dismiss the demands of divine justice, and you abolish any need for the gospel.

The only hell that exists in Bell’s theology is a state of mind or an earthly experience of suffering that Bell says God wants eliminated. But it’s up to us to live rightly in order to end whatever hell on earth we might suffer. By living the right way we can exchange our earthly hell for a strikingly earthbound sort of heaven.


Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, 148: "When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter--they are all hell on earth. Jesus' desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth.

In that same paragraph, Bell ridicules the notion that the anguish of eternal hell is a greater and ultimately more serious problem than the afflictions of this present life.

What's disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth."

In Bell’s view, the reason eternal hell is nothing to be concerned about is because full reconciliation is already accomplished for everyone. Again, all people have to do is live accordingly:

Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, 83: This reality, this forgiveness, this reconciliation, is true for everybody. Paul insisted that when Jesus died on the cross he was reconciling ‘all things, in heaven and on earth, to God. This reality then isn’t something we make true about ourselves by doing something. It is already true. Our choice is to live in this new reality or cling to a reality of our own making.”

In other words, the only remedy for Bell’s hell is something like the power of positive thinking. First of all, we must stop thinking of ourselves as sinners:

Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, 130: "I can’t find one place in the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for that matter, where we are to identify ourselves first and foremost as sinners.”


Furthermore, Bell suggests this notion that universal reconciliation is "already true” means Christians should not make any differentiation between believers and unbelievers:

Velvet Elvis, 167: If the gospel isn’t good news for everybody, then it isn’t good news for anybody.

And this is because the most powerful things happen when the church surrenders its desire to convert people and convince them to join. It is when the church gives itself away in radical acts of service and compassion, expecting nothing in return, that the way of Jesus is most vividly put on display.

To do this, the church must stop thinking about everybody primarily in categories of in or out, saved or not, believer or nonbeliever. Besides the fact that these terms are offensive to those who are the "un” and "non”, they work against Jesus’ teachings about how we are to treat each other. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor, and our neighbor can be anybody. We are all created in the image of God, and we are all sacred, valuable creations of God. Everybody matters. To treat people differently based on who believes what is to fail to respect the image of God in everyone. As the book of James says, "God shows no favoritism.” So we don’t either.”

Bell therefore attempts to shift the emphasis from personal salvation for sinners, to an ambiguous emphasis on this vague hope of universal restoration:

Rob Bell and Don Golden, Jesus Wants to Save Christians, 179: "Jesus wants to save us from making the good news about another world and not this one. Jesus wants to save us from preaching a gospel that is only about individuals and not about the systems that enslave them. Jesus wants to save us from shrinking the gospel down to a transaction about the removal of sin and not about every single particle of creation being reconciled to its maker.”

He turns faith on its head:

Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, 124”“25: "Who does Peter lose faith in? Not Jesus; he is doing fine. Peter loses faith in himself. Peter loses faith that he can do what his rabbi is doing. If the rabbi calls you to be his disciple, then he believes that you can actually be like him. As we read the stories of Jesus’ life with his talmidim, his disciples, what do we find frustrates him to no end? When his disciples lose faith in themselves…. God has an amazingly high view of people. God believes that people are capable of amazing things. I’ve been told I need to believe in Jesus. Which is a good thing. But what I’m learning is that Jesus believes in me. I have been told that I need to have faith in God. Which is a good thing. But what I am learning is that God has faith in me.”

All those quotations are from sources that have been in print for years. These are not new opinions being floated by Bell for the first time. So when Love Wins denies the heart of the gospel message, as Kevin DeYoung points out below, why should we be surprised?

Kevin DeYoung, "God Is Still Holy and What You Learned in Sunday School Is Still True: A Review of Love Wins”: Bell categorically rejects any notion of penal substitution. It simply does not work in his system or with his view of God. "Let’s be very clear, then,” Bell states, "we do not need to be rescued from God. God is the one who rescues us from death, sin, and destruction. God is the rescuer” (182). I see no place in Bell’s theology for Christ the curse-bearer (Gal. 3:13), or Christ wounded for our transgressions and crushed by God for our iniquities (Isa. 53:5, 10), no place for the Son of Man who gave his life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45), no place for the Savior who was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), no place for the sorrowful suffering Servant who drank the bitter cup of God’s wrath for our sake (Mark 14:36).

Ultimately, all of this goes back to Bell’s view of the Bible. Having rejected biblical authority, Bell has set himself up as his own authority.

Bell has never affirmed the Protestant principle of sola Scriptura.

Rob Bell, Velvet Elvis, 67”“68: "It wasn’t until the 300s that what we know as the sixty-six books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as the ‘Bible’. This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that "Scripture alone” is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God’s Word, in the same breath I have to affirm that when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I also have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books.”

Thus, he sees the Bible as merely a human book.

Andy Crouch, "Emergent Mystique,” Christianity Today (Nov. 2004): The Bells started questioning their assumptions about the Bible itself”“"discovering the Bible as a human product,” as Rob puts it, rather than the product of divine fiat. "The Bible is still in the center for us,” Rob says, "but it’s a different kind of center. We want to embrace mystery, rather than conquer it.”

"I grew up thinking that we’ve figured out the Bible,” Kristen says, "that we knew what it means. Now I have no idea what most of it means. And yet I feel like life is big again”“like life used to be black and white, and now it’s in color…”

Consequently, he has no problem ignoring certain parts of Scripture and reimagining others.

Charles Honey, "‘Velvet Elvis’ Author Encourages Exploration of Doubts,” Religion News Service (Aug. 2005): The Bible itself, he writes, is a book that constantly must be wrestled with and re-interpreted. He dismisses claims that "Scripture alone" will answer all questions. Bible interpretation is colored by historical context, the reader's bias and current realities, he says. The more you study the Bible, the more questions it raises. "It is not possible to simply do what the Bible says," Bell writes. "We must first make decisions about what it means at this time, in this place, for these people."

As a result, Bell is comfortable distorting clear gospel passages, so as to escape the unmistakable meaning of the passage. For example, when asked about the narrow gate in Matthew 7:13”“14, Bell responded with this novel interpretation:

Rob Bell, Interview with Lisa Miller (March 2011): "I think it’s a great passage because the things in life that matter take incredible intention. And I think it’s a passage ultimately about intention and the power of devoting yourself to something and to somebody. . . . Jesus””I think””is speaking of all the different ways that we lose the plot of what it means to be human. So there was a very real, political climate that He lived in and a number of people said, ‘The thing we are to do as faithful people of God, we are to pick up swords and we are to fight the Romans.’ And He’s like, ‘Okay, the sword thing? We’ve tried that. Let’s reclaim what it means to be a light to the world.’ And He takes them all the way back into their history, which was a narrow way, so I think it works.”

Excerpts like those and many others only reiterate the point that Rob Bell’s gospel is completely antithetical to the true gospel of historic Christianity.


from: http://www.gtycanada.org/Blog/B110418/rob-bells-unbelief-in-his-own-words

T
TMK

"Bell said he was surprised by the controversy around his book. Critics said he was preaching universalism, a theology that suggests everyone goes to heaven and hell is empty.

"I’m not a universalist. So that’s just not true.” He reiterated that again in the event that evening where he expounded on that idea and said that he didn’t believe God reaches down and sweeps everyone to heaven."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/19/rob-bell-punches-back-against-claims-of-heresy/

B
brothagary

bell also said in the above artical ................

What stirred many critics was a promotional video in which Bell asks whether Mohandas Gandhi, India’s non-violent leader, was in heaven. Bell’s answer offers a good insight into his view of salvation.

Bell would not be surprised if he saw Gandhi in heaven. "Jesus was very clear. Heaven is full of surprises. That’s central to Jesus teaching
,,,

More like that was central to satans teachings, worship idols and god will still except you

D
DEADn

I posted this to my blog along with the direct link. I find it to be that important especially as I cross paths with many who seem to share the same ideal of the Emergent church. Love without boundaries is not love at all. It is a motto I used when dealing with these Emerger people.

I
InTheLight

Rob Bell’s denial of eternal punishment goes hand in hand with a warped view of the gospel. No wonder. Each error fuels and exacerbates the other. Eliminate every hint of punishment for sin; ignore the wrath of an offended deity; dismiss the demands of divine justice, and you abolish any need for the gospel.

This is well put and indicative of much preaching today. If they don't believe that God's wrath has been revealed from heaven against man's wickedness and that He wouldn't excercise wrath against the sins of men and women, then ipso facto, you have no gospel to proclaim.

The reason that some sit in church still in their sins is because they've never been brought to face their true condition before God's righteous standard.

In Christ,

Ron

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mattf12486

The man spent an entire book challenging whether hell was an actual place people go after death. His view, from what I remember, was hell was when you lose a loved one or get diagnosed with cancer. He reminds me of the serpent in the garden who challenged the word of God with questions. This Bell character is slippery like a serpent and attempts to camouflage his true position.

Someone brought up the Ghandi video that really tipped off Bell's true position. He's unwilling to believe that a good God would send a "good" man to hell. The problem is no one is good but he doesn't seem to get that...

S
sermonindex

About Gandhi. The thing is people will be judged based on the light revealed to them, correct? Paul talks about spiritual Jews, or inward Jews, in Romans 2. "They have not the law. But do the things in the law, it being written on their hearts." "And they will judge ye, who have the law, are a transgressor of the law"

Doesn't this make sense?

Billy Graham said he went to other countries evangelizing and people who never heard the gospel would say to him, "I KNEW that jesus in my heart. but didn't know who/what he was". to me that's an inward spiritual jew. obeying God's voice with the limited knowledge you have.

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mattf12486

I completely agree that people will be judged based on the light that has been revealed to them, but that will only be enough to condemn them. God requires perfection and 1 sin is enough to separate us from God. The idea that a lost tribesman knows "Jesus" in his heart but has never heard of him is against scripture and opens the door to universalism imo. I've heard what Billy Graham said and while i think that he is a sincere and sound Christian, he is sincerely wrong about this. How will they hear without a preacher? That's why we need missionaries.

T
TMK

Missionaries will not reach every person.

B
brothagary

spot on mati.

Does not the bible say he who has the son has life but he who does not have the son does not have life ,unless one is born again he can not see the kingdom of heaven

That quote from romans about gentiles having the law on there heart ,is speaking about us not the idolater living in the amazon or some tribe of necromancers .

No ware in the bible does it literal teach that the unbelievers and pagans idolaters will be judged by the light given them ,and some will make it to heaven ,,

This is why in the old covenant and the new covenent there is elections ,not of works but of him who calls

That type of devilish teaching undermines the whole Gospel,,and is a works salvation

How does an idol worshiper obey the light of his conscience and get saved ,, what must he do ,,repent of sin ,does he even need to do that ,there is not one single example of that type of liberal Gospel , highway to heaven


Romans 8;28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.…

29
Every single person god wants to be with him in heaven, will be in heaven god will receive them unto him self he foreknew each and every one from the smallest to the greatest .

He has it preplanned it, and his by power, through the blood ,and the spirit will effectively draw all those who he predestined with out exception ,Jesus said you didnt choose me but i chose you .
30
Every single soul the he foreknew and wants ,he sends out the Gospel call to them personally ,and to those it is a completely effective call to there hearts and spirits the love of Christ constrains them as it did to Paul .

Every single one of these souls bar none ,is justfied and declared right with god through the righteousness imputed to him ,the righteousness of god ,he does this through the faith of the son of god ,sanctification is the evidence, for he who is born of god does not continue to practice sin for god seed is in him and he cannot practice sin

God will completely effectively and bring home to glory all these souls that he for knew intamently before the foundation of the world and he will lose none

Jesus said this is the will of the father that all those who the father has given me will come to me ,and i will lose none , but raise them up in the last day ,no one is able to pluck them out of my fathers hand ,glorification will take place according to gods good pleasure and mercy ..

sorry about that just had to get that of my chest

H
Heydave

Yes Gary is right. The Romans 2 verse (law written on their heart) is taken completely out of context when applied to unbelievers.

In context Paul is addressing his letter to Jewish and Gentile believers at the church in Rome. He stating the fact that although the gentile 'believers' were not given the law, the law is written on their hearts. Also there is no benefit to the Jewish believers who have the law, if the law is not an inward reality. He is really explaining the New Covenant, which is the theme of the whole letter.

He is definitely not saying pagans can be saved if they show good works!! THE major sin against a Holy God is worship of anything other than God himself.

BTW, Gandi certainly did hear and know the gospel, but he rejected it as far one can tell from historical accounts.

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mattf12486

Amen, he's referencing gentile believers and explaining the reality of the new covenant being fulfilled in these gentile believers. He's also explaining that the purpose of the law was primarily to point one to the sacrificial work of Christ.

The whole theme of the opening chapters of Romans is summed up in Romans 3:9,10 ... For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
3:10 There is none righteous, no, not one.

Many seem unwilling to face the fact that all are guilty before God and that they are in desperate need of the gospel.

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mattf12486

So since missionaries will not reach every person do you think there will be a special category of people in heaven who have never heard of Christ but believe in a God of their own understanding?

Paul says clearly in Romans 10:12-15 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

S
sermonindex

yes salvation is by faith, and some people who in never hearing the gospel have an unfruitful mind, can't correct themselves much or share it much. Yet have conscience and intuition. well some of them actually have a type of faith in God as best they can and obey His voice, yet with not much a fruitful mind. These would be the "good" people of the nations. I would list Socrates as one.

"For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.” (Romans 5:7, NASB95)

You must ask yourselves what does God have against a person who obeys their conscience, whether of Jews or Gentiles. If you think God is not going to have mercy on such a "good" person with limited knowledge, you haven't understood God. Because "goodness" actually comes FROM God. As does Love.

If you quote Romans 3:10-18, then please look up all those psalms/references for the correct picture of what Paul was quoting. At the same time Paul was saying "no one good" there were 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal.

Jesus said he came into the world to save sinners. It is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. He came not for the righteous, but sinners. Such a person out there who is "good" and "obeys their conscience" in a place not having heard the Gospel, but then having heard the gospel in some future date, they would agree with God's justice because they already know him by faith in their heart, yet without the written Bible. They have a type of faith. Well they would listen to a Spiritually led person, in my estimation. Although the message has power in the words alone also.

""I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” (John 10:16, NASB95)

But Jesus came to save sinners, but is an encourager of the one doing right. He's not psychotic like some of these doctrines make him seem.

my thoughts

edit: John Piper sermon discusses romans 3
http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/all-jews-and-gentiles-are-under-sin

M
mattf12486

NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact that no one is good in the eyes of God. Not Ghandi, not Socrates, not the pope. Until you submit to this truth, you will be fighting against the plain revelation of God's word. If righteousness could come by the law than Christ died in vain.

You quote Romans 5:7 and miss the entire point...

Read the whole thought...For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us...

Paul is demonstrating the amazing love of God by showing that he died for His enemies...there is no such thing as a good person.

Think of the rich young ruler as Jesus gently rebukes his ignorance. Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life. Jesus responds by correcting him and giving him a lesson about mankind. The rich young ruler has no clue that Jesus is God and approached him as a "good" teacher. Jesus says, "why do you call me good, there is none good but God."

S
sermonindex

that just drives me away from certain folke....this quote:

i'm going to break it down into parts, the first part is who talks like this:

NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact

its just 'christianese"....tightly wound at that, you wouldn't speak like that to him face to face....and we wonder why there is nothing to "make the Gentiles envious"?

lets now deal with the whole quote:

NoahJD you refuse to submit to the fact that no one is good in the eyes of God.

really?.....God IS our Father, right.....and the way, you and others parse it, Our Father doesn't view us as "good"?

H0w many times in the Gospel accounts does Jesus refer to the "good man"?...many.


Now you can counter me, by saying "look at the very Scripture I posted"

you posted One of Three "rich young man" accounts from Luke, I believe, but what does it say in Marks Gospel.....Jesus looked at him and loved him, I paraphrase .

my point?....why do I feel like so many "evangelicals" are hard, and brittle and religioustic? instead of LIVING and BREATHING Messiah, inside you....you'd rather fight, and argue "doctrine" or this ism or that ism.

God requires authentic, and real children, with a simple Faith, loving hearts, both vertical and horizontal.....and yes, we ALL do sometimes stumble and fall short of "good".......but when you fail your human father, and if you are REAL and TRANSPARENT, what do say to him?..."oh Daddy, i'm SO sorry, I fell asleep on the couch and missed the meeting we had at the bank...please forgive me". (just an example)....and then you make it right, because you love him......my dad's gone, so.....

I don't understand some of you around here, I read a lot of posts, and ask, where is the sweetness of spirit?...the love? the authenticity....instead I see religious posturing a lot.....read the 15 prophets, they had MUCH to say about religious posturing.

Matt, i'm NOT trying to pick on you, believe me, i'm not....that line just disturbed me in spirit and heart...in the Eyes of God, we all possess great beauty and preciousness, and THAT is good.

Tell me otherwise, and i'll tell you, to search intently into the Attributes of God. softly, neil

S
sermonindex

I never said righteousness comes by the law, buy rather I said it comes by faith. and the presupposed people had faith. A good person is good because of his faithfulness. A bad person is bad because of his departure from his conscience (or departure from Law, departure from Faith). So if you obey God you will increase your goodness. Obeying "Law" is different because it doesn't necessarily point to God in faith, unless you seek the Law out of faith.


"But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (Romans 6:17”“18, NASB95)

"Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and ENSLAVED TO GOD, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.” (Romans 6:21”“22, NASB95)

"For Christ is the goal/outcome of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Romans 10:4 NASB ref. note.

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is out of faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,” (Romans 9:30”“32, NASB95 ref. note.)

"For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”””that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”” (Romans 10:5”“11, NASB95)

"Who will ascend into Heaven" comes from here, Deut.:

""For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”” (Deuteronomy 30:11”“20, NASB95)

Loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and holding fast to Him. that's all faith. not works of Law. which is why the Apostle quotes it.

edit: "loving the Lord Jesus, obeying His voice, and holding fast to him" might be better understood

S
sermonindex

God requires authentic, and real children, with a simple Faith, loving hearts, both vertical and horizontal.....and yes, we ALL do sometimes stumble and fall short of "good".......but when you fail your human father, and if you are REAL and TRANSPARENT, what do say to him?..."oh Daddy, i'm SO sorry, I fell asleep on the couch and missed the meeting we had at the bank...please forgive me". (just an example)....and then you make it right, because you love him......my dad's gone, so.....

excellent point. which is what they are teaching me at counseling. i hate being hard. its wrong.

S
sermonindex

Dear Noah,

i'm not writing back for you commending me...or so that we can be "right" and they're "wrong".....i'm not doing that.

i'm writing in regards to your counseling, and my prayer for that and you...one of the translation of "Shalom" is "wholeness"...may shalom be over your heart soul, body mind and strength, which is the Peace of God IN Christ Jesus IN you...amen.

ps...I had no intention of joining this thread....I loathe these threads, the 'who's a heretic" thread. I just found that one line WRONG hearted, and missing the mark....now I step out, others can "refute and rebuke" me, in their best christianese.

S
sermonindex

yeah i get it. I don't like the them and us either

the counseling is great. Saturday morning i went in, waiting in the waiting area, and a older women comes out of her session healed of a bone chip/swelling she had from stepping on a small rock barefoot. i was blessed because i am weeping for God to pour out on us. second healing in two weeks, a guy was mentioning

T
TMK

matt wrote:

"So since missionaries will not reach every person do you think there will be a special category of people in heaven who have never heard of Christ but believe in a God of their own understanding?"

Abraham asked this rhetorical question:

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

I happen to believe that He will.

Matt- you are perhaps fortunate to have been born into a country and perhaps even a family where the gospel is prevalent and there is a LEGITIMATE chance to respond to the gospel in an affirmative manner.

Do not pass such judgment on those who are born and live in deepest jungles or hovels in New Delhi or terrorist camps in Syria.

M
mattf12486

I'm sorry for my tone but I'm not a very good writer and I will try to communicate in a more gracious manner.

TMK writes, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Of course he will because he is just and that is why people desperately need a savior. God said he wouldn't destroy the city for the sake of 10 righteous, and he destroyed the entire city. There weren't even 10 righteous in an entire city, only Lot and family! Are we to suppose that "good" people exist in foreign lands and will get to heaven without the Lord Jesus Christ? That's against everything in scripture. I think of Lydia in Acts who feared God. What did God do? He sent a preacher, the apostle Paul, to preach the gospel to her.

I'm sorry if my tone isn't as gracious as some like, but by the grace of God I am what I am.

M
mattf12486

Hez Welling, i'm sorry for offending you with my writing tone. I will try my best to not offend anyone.

S
sermonindex

I read somewhere that missionaries are encouraged to learn about the myths of animistic/other cultures to use it in evangelism because many have stories that have concurrent truths with the true history. (since all came from the three sons of Noah and dispersed even more after Babel, there is residual truth) and in using some truth from their own oral traditions it connects them with the God of all our ancestors way back (which worked better in evangelism that striking down everything about their myths completely), both Noah and Adam, whichever their myths refer to.

if anyone is interested in learning about different cultures, check out these short audios:

http://biblefacts.org/index.php?cat=creation

in the Post Flood section.

M
mattf12486

Question: "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether or not they have "heard about Him.” The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle””everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God” (Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a "god” of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.


B
brothagary

Yea your right matti,the letter to the romans is very clear and half the reason Paul wrote it .

He said what the law says is written to those under the law ,that EVERY mouth my be stoped and the whole world become guilty before god ,he said those under law will be judged by the law and those with out law WILL PERISH with out law .Its not about us judging the tribal idolaters as lost and perishing with out law ,Paul clearly says they will perish but the goes on to say even those under the law are guilty condemned by the law in which they thought they would be justfied ,thats why he say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god ,and that only way to escape is through the justification that comes freely by grace through faith through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ ...

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;……

th bible doesnt teach any Whare the a person can be saved by following there conscience,,but as the above Scriptures says it is only by faith through the redemption that we are justfied ,,following our conscience doesnt led to any form of justification,,that teaching is trampling over the blood of the covenant and the righteousness of god imputed through faith ,it completely nullifies the need of the Gospel, if justification come by conscience .It is nullifying the word of god through mens traditions ,,that is, with me being as soft and gentel as i can be, is devilish wisdom that doesnt not come from above but earthly sensual and devilish as James said ,,to teach that a person needs not the blood of redemption or the god of Abraham Isac and Jacob just follow the darkened mind of a pagan race that god has turned over to follow the desires of the flesh and of the mind . All though they new god they did not glorify god so there foolish hearts became darkened professing to be was they became fools ,and changed the glories of an incoruptable god to images made by hands . Paul in his letter to the romans was more then likely trying to combat that type of false Gospel .

Brothers dont take this the wrong way im not angry or being unduly harsh,,but the fundamental Christian teaching is repentance toward the god of Abraham and Issac and Jacob and faith in the Gospel and the name of Christ the name that is above every other name for there is salvations in no other name , there is one way one truth and one life ,it comes only through follow Jesus by faith

T
TMK

Typical "gotquestions" answer. I generally like that website but sometimes it is extremely simplistic.

Why not just say "we do not know how God will deal with those persons who have never heard the gospel?" Isn't that the more honest response? By the way, there is nothing wrong with that position. Some mystery is okay.

The idea that God will send people to hell because He placed them in an area with no realistic access to the gospel is repellant, at least to me. It is so easy for us to make sweeping statements about a vast number of human beings from our advantaged position. There **really are** millions of people who will never have a legitimate chance to respond to the gospel. For us to make a statement that they are damned because they have not believed in a Person they do not even know exists is repugnant. There is no difference between that and God sending mentally disabled persons or babies to hell who have not confessed Christ as saviour.

S
sermonindex

I'm really not disagreeing with most of this and the general stance. its just that I believe sometimes those who take the name of Christ condemn those who God is not condemning, and justify those who God is not justifying

Ravi Zacharias said once to this type of question, "if we believe God is good and right, we should trust God will do rightly for all those who haven't heard the gospel" (paraphrase)

generally people who obey their conscience believe in some sort of higher being, God. faith and obeying conscience pretty much go together. Moses broke faith with God at Meribah. i broke faith with God and got mad at my wife. my conscience said not to.

Ray Comfort interviewed a bunch of people about whether they would murder someone for 1 million dollars. or 1 billion. most of them said they would do it for the right price. but the common denominator for those who said they would never do that, was a belief in God.

I just don't think God would punish a person when they have some type of faith and do what is right

but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
(Act 10:35)

B
brothagary

brother its much better to keep the bible in context act10;35 is actually speaking about proselytes and gentiles that actually had faith in the god of Abraham Issac and Jacob,not demons . Paul said that the gods of the pagans are actually demons ,,thats why he said you cant sit and table of god and table of demons .Under the old covenant gentiles weren't full excepted and treated as the children of Abraham were ,but peter is saying under the new covenant this is now true ,but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
(Act 10:35)

So when you say that god wont punish some one with some type of faith and do what is right ,that is an oxymoron ,,if that is the right word .

One .the pagan gentiles have faith in either idols which Paul said are connected with demons or faith in there own imagination making an idol of that in there mind and heart,so it is not faith in any Deity .The bible says these things are an abomination and not except able to god .

Two .the above people are not doing right in god eyes and the so called good things that they may do are tainted by idolatry,and are filthy rags in the sight of god ,,god also said that about Israel because of idolatry and not have repentance toward him .

Please dont think im condemning them ,the bibles says they are guilty before god.

Greg ,Paul west ,or Robert ,moderators i sincerely ask for you to correct me if the bible doesnt teach this i dont want to cross the line an continue in this thread ,as to seem like i want to argue with our brothers and press an agenda , this is not my intention ,,so i will bow now to avoid that

S
sermonindex

What happens to those who have never heard the gospel? I would add to that group little children who die before they have the mental capacity to understand the gospel. What about those born with downs syndrome? And then you have all the people who died before Jesus died on the cross. A calvinist like James White would probably tell you that they will all go to hell because that was Gods will for them. I would tell you that I simply don't know the answer, but I trust God to do the right thing, and He doesn't care if I know the answer or not. Sorry if my answer is not theological enough:)

H
Heydave

TMK wrote "The idea that God will send people to hell because He placed them in an area with no realistic access to the gospel is repellent, at least to me."

Well God does not care what you think is repellent! I'm not saying this is what God does, but who are we to sit in judgement on God? This sums up all that is wrong in the many statements made on this thread. It is man's reasonings about what is fair and just, but we are not the decider of what is just. We have to stay with what God reveals in His word and bend to that. To do otherwise is to be proud and setting ourselves above God.

In fact if you knew the scriptures you would know that God does place all people where he determines, BUT that they might seek Him and find Him.

Acts 17:26-27 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
"so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us".

I believe what God says, not what I think.

S
sermonindex

pre-dawn here, Tuesday morning, and I simply could not rest until I wrote this publicly to you, fore it is I who am sorry that I might have even grieved you, with the thought that you "offended" me, Even though my letter/post seemingly to YOU, contained language that would indicate "offense" committed, that is not the case, my dear brother.

I been up since 3AM, made coffee, tuned into NOAA for the weather. (I live rural and got chores to do) then I went into the Word, 2nd Peter.....and all the while, you were on my soul, and i'm searching with the Holy Spirit, HOW to explain to what is tearing at me, as well as saying "please forgive me" if I grieved you in my prior letter/post.

as Messiah, who lives IN me, and thru me, let me say this; as I indicated before Jesus references the "good man"...many times in the Gospel accounts...O, Blessed Red Letters!!!....when Messiah speaks, I have to go over His Words so many times....this is Precious Time spent, as He becomes SO REAL to me...and He will NOT ALLOW ME, to look at fellow men and women as being "no good"...or having nothing good in them. To REFLECT Messiah IN me, I cant do that......am I making sense?

I must, I simply must look at them, with compassion, mercy and steadfast love. Does this happen all the time?...no, im a broke clay vessel also, sometimes I get angry, or impatient, but I always have Messiah Jesus and God the Holy Ghost to PERFECT me in this short walk, we call life.....and I can plead the Blood of Christ, I can ask for the Indwelling Holy Spirit to fill me....and I can count on the discipline of God, to set me straight.

at risk of being redundant, as God is my Witness, I cannot look at others as having no good in them, every soul is precious to the Master of the Universe....now at the same time, YES, our "discernment" will tell us, when we are dealing with a "son of the dark".....and I avoid them, ask God to have mercy on them, HOPING for the best. Hope.

My seeming "offense" is more geared to my Godly grief, in that I believe the small c church has failed God miserably since 315 AD....and even Martin Luther, who started so strong, so anointed, finished so shamefully with his letter, "on Jews and their Lies"......for look at ALL the "denominations"!!...basically religious institutions, with divergent doctrines, and headquarters, and 'ordained clergy'...and moneybags......its so much AGAINST what Jesus prayed in the "High Priestly Prayer" of John 17..."as We are One" (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=25485)

Dear brother, I do not know you, face to face, your background, your life, your calling, your struggles in a world that grows darker by the day....so you didn't "offend" me.....I was "stirred" to say what I had to say, because grief consumes me at the some of impotence of those who consider themselves "super-apostles" in these days, all teaching different things or "isms", putting out books...or parking themselves on TV screens pleading for filthy lucre...or heading up mega-churches, either nursing secret sin, and/or keeping the flock in ecclesiastical bondage......when all they should be teaching is "Christ and Him Crucified".

The "helpless and harassed" of this world should be coming to Christ, because HE IS ENOUGH.......not to take hold of some shallow "get out of hell free card" bellowed and taught from dead dry pulpits.

Even Paul wished himself "cursed and cut off from Christ", if he could bring in the tribe of his flesh, the Hebrews. Walking with Jesus, should be MORE than enough NOW, this moment.......if Heaven wasn't dangled as a "sweetener", and Hell threatened like a "drink of Drano"....how many would follow Messiah Jesus NOW?....suffer NOW? .....be sweet NOW? love the impossible Love NOW?

how many?.....

Rob Bell?....who's he? just a man.fleeting.

John MacArthur?.........who's he? just a man.fleeting.

Would to God every preacher and pastor in this land, this Sabbath, get on their faces, abase themselves, and humbly ask the Lord Jesus to Pastor the Church they are called to.

this nation, this land would change overnight.

May the Grace and Peace and Mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, forgive me if I grieved you with my words, in His love, neil

T
TMK

Heydave wrote:

"I'm not saying this is what God does, but who are we to sit in judgement on God?"

What do you think God does to a child born in the slums of New Delhi who is sick from malnutrition his whole life; never hears the name of Jesus and dies from illness at age 16?

We know what is right and wrong because God instills that in us. We are made in His image. So I think we are able to say what would be right and wrong in the above scenario.

H
Heydave

TMK wrote: "We know what is right and wrong because God instills that in us. We are made in His image. So I think we are able to say what would be right and wrong in the above scenario."

TMK, This is so wrong brother. If that were true there would not be so may 'opinions' as to what was right and wrong. This is where deception starts and has led many once great movements into error and apostasy. We think we have inner light to decide what is right and wrong? Isn't this the first Sin committed in the garden? "You will be like God, knowing good and evil"

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding."

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Be careful you don't have a god of your own making and not the God revealed in the bible!

S
sermonindex

"We know what is right and wrong because God instills that in us. We are made in His image. So I think we are able to say what would be right and wrong in the above scenario."

exactly. we can discern things. even devils can judge. the more we know God the better we can judge righteous judgement

judgment will be merciless for him who shows no mercy

S
sermonindex

boy doesn't this scripture pierce us all

"But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.” (1 Timothy 1:5”“7, NASB95)

(by the way you could insert "New Testament" in there because they mostly only had the OT back then)

T
TMK

Heydave--

You said that it is "wrong" that we, especially as Christians, have a sense of what is wrong and what is right.

I am not sure what to make of that statement. People that say this sort of thing usually do so because they are trying to avoid the implications of ascribing horrible things to God.

In other words, the reasoning goes like this: "God is responsible (or sovereign) over everything. God is good. Therefore even seemingly horrible things are really good, because God is behind them.

This is where you and I seem to part ways. If something seems horrible or evil to me, then my position is either 1) God is not behind it or 2) I am mistaken in what I think that God does about it.

In the case of my example of the New Delhi youth, I have two options that preserve God's character 1) believe that God did not purposefully put him there where He knows he will never hear the name of Jesus or 2) believe that if God DID put him there where He knows he will never hear the gospel that God will not toss him into an eternal hell for it.

Your position SEEMS to be (and I may be wrong) is that if God both knowingly places the child there where he will never hear the gospel AND also tosses him into hell for it, then that is right because "God's ways are higher than our ways."

And I say that is daft (kind of like that word) because wrong is wrong.

S
sermonindex

and point

3. God wants to send us to him to share the gospel

edit: I believe he would be punished for doing evil: sinning, being convicted by his conscience, and continuing to do it. seriously God is not mocked

""For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”” (Malachi 4:1, NASB95)

T
TMK

I am certainly not downplaying evangelism. Jesus said he came that we may have abundant life, which certainly includes now.

In other words following Jesus is not just for the next life.

But the sad truth is that not every person will be evangelized.

H
Heydave

TMK,

I absolutely believe that God is sovereign. However I don't believe He puts people like that in a place so they can never find him. I gave you the biblical understanding from Acts 17 that says God puts people where He wants that they might find Him. I believe this is true.

If you want to belive something else that's up to you, but it is your reasonings, not God's word.

Regarding your example, if the youth was seeking for truth, God is plenty able to arrange for a way for the gospel message to get to him. It might not be traditional evangelism (however in India there is plenty of Christian witness), it could be through any multitude of ways. God is not impotent as you suggest.

My big disagreement with your statements is that you exalt your understanding of what is right, fair and just over what God has declared in His word. That is that there is salvation in no other but the name and person of Jesus Christ.

T
TMK

If God saves someone who has never heard the gospel it is because of what Jesus did on the cross so I certainly believe there is no other name by which men must be saved.

All I am really trying to say is that we really don't know what God will do in every situation.

The question I suppose is whether circumstances alter cases.

M
mattf12486

If the Bible is truly the word of God, which I'm assuming we all believe, than to make a case for a person being saved who has never placed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is impossible using the Bible.

Some seem to think God is unjust if He gives man what he deserves. The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God owes none of his creatures anything. Grace is unmerited favor.


TMK, do you think God was unjust in flooding the entire known world and saving only 8? What about choosing Abraham and through him the children of Israel before the coming of Jesus Christ? All the other nations were excluded from the covenant.

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