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Phil Robertson on Isis and the Gospel
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K
KingJimmy
If you stop and think about what Phil Robertson has articulated, his stance is fundamentally no different than the terrorists perspective. They would have us all converted to Islam, but since we are viewed as "the great Satan," they feel they have no choice but to kill us.
D
dfella
Jeff,
While I always love to hear Gods word and Jesus Christ being preached to the greater masses, and I agree with most of what Phil said. He makes it clear that he is prepared to take up arms if necessary.
As a bible teacher yourself you know full well that there is no place for Christians taking up the sword. I am afraid that many professors in Christ through fear will be lead into taking up arms to defend themselves.
If ISIS happens to be the modern day Assyrian Army which is the rod of Gods anger against those who rebel against Him, the only remedy is repentance, not taking up arms and fighting against God.
With that said, I will say again that I appreciate God getting the airtime via men like Phil,
(Philippians 1:18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
However, many will see what Phil said and they will focus on the part he said about killing and not even hear anything else he said. Hence they will strain at a gnat and swallow the camel.
I look forward and welcome your thoughts as you seem to be one of the few who will engage my posts.
R
Ruach34
dfella, where is the passage you refer to in the bible of the Assyrian army being the rod of God's anger? Thanks in advance...
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Ruach34
I agree, Jimmy
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KingJimmy
A thought from my blog today on this:
http://kingjimmyunauthorized.blogspot.com/2014/09/convert-them-or-kill-them-phil.html
For those of you who may not be aware, in Iraq and Syria there presently exists an armed uprising by an Islamic army/terrorist organization that refers to themselves as "The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria."
The number one goal of ISIS is to create an Islamic theocratic state, first starting in the Middle East, and eventually spreading across the globe. They hope to cause all men and women to live under the teachings and governance of Islamic law as interpreted through their religious leaders.
Ideally, they wish everybody would convert to Islam through their preaching. You may not know it, but Islam has their own missionaries. They actively try to convert people to Islam, much in the way we as Christians have missionaries and evangelists that go around the world sharing the gospel.
However, in regard to the form of Islam that ISIS practices, whoever resists their preaching must ultimately be executed, for such a person would have no place in a nation governed by Islamic law. Even Muslims who don't interpret Islam in the exact same way they do must ultimately convert and submit to their particular views, or face possible execution.
ISIS is terribly pragmatic in the implementation of their faith in the establishing of an Islamic government, and they are pretty straight forward in their approach:
Convert them, or kill them.
ISIS ultimately views America as an enemy in their struggle, and a result, we've landed in their crosshairs. They view us as a threat to their cause, their lives, and they believe we must be dealt with.
Many of our political leaders are presently scrambling for a solution to this problem. They realize that ISIS ultimately can't be negotiated with, because there is nothing to ultimately negotiate over. ISIS wants an Islamic state, not only in the Middle East, but ultimately across all of the world. They will be satisfied with nothing less.
While Washington, DC seeks for a present solution to this great problem, this topic has become a hot point of discussion in the media. Everybody is being asked to weigh in on where they stand, and what they see as a solution.
There is one brief interview recently conducted that sticks out in my mind, and I believe it to be indicative of the attitude that prevails amongst most Christians in America.
A few days ago, the controversial Duck Dynasty reality TV star and "patriarch" Phil Robertson appeared on Fox News, and was interviewed by commentator Sean Hannity. When Hannity asked Robertson about his thoughts on the ISIS crisis, Robertson briefly said the following:
"I'm not giving up on them, but I'm just saying, either convert them or kill them. One or the other."
I find Robertson's solution to the problem of ISIS to be rather revealing, and troubling at the same time. I fear too many follow his line of reasoning, and it goes along the following lines:
We know Jesus Christ has called us to fulfill the Great Commission, that is, to take the Gospel to all the world, and make disciples of all nations. We know all men are in need of our risen Lord and Savior. We know ISIS acts the way they do because like us, they are sinners in need of a Savior. We know they need to be born again, and apart from such, they will continue on in their present spiritual condition.
But in desiring to see all men saved, we recognize an immediate problem with groups like ISIS. They have no interests whatsoever in the Gospel message. Indeed, not only are they uninterested in hearing the Gospel, they are outwardly hostile to Christians, and are engaged in actively persecuting and murdering anybody who follows Christ. They simply will not tolerate the existence of Christians in their Islamic theocratic state. They don't believe in co-existing.
Being that there seems little hope in converting groups like ISIS, we quickly realize there only remains one practical means of stopping them from advancing, and that is to declare war against them, and kill as many of them as we possibly can. Our solution is ultimately this:
Convert them, or kill them.
But if you stop and think about what I just said, you will realize that our philosophy towards ISIS of converting them or killing them is the exact same philosophy that they are using in regard to us.
ISIS sees America as "the Great Satan" and believes we are beyond hope of being converted to Islam, and that we are actively trying to interfere with their mission of establishing an Islamic theocratic state. Likewise, we as Christians in America see ISIS as the embodiment of evil, inhuman, and demonic. And as such, we believe there are few practical steps we could take that could ever result in their conversion. They are beyond being saved it seems. Feeling hopeless and fearful in regard to stopping the jihad they are waging, we feel the only hope we have in stopping them is to declare war on them and kill them before they kill us.
Therefore, both of us agree the only solution to our problem is to kill the other group.
And while such may be the theology of Islam, carefully searching the Scriptures, I have a hard time believing such is also in keeping with the theology of Jesus, and the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.
The teachings of Jesus demand that we pick up our crosses instead of our swords, and follow Him. It demands that we love our enemies, even at the cost of our own lives. And if we literally give our lives over to death for the sake of Christ, we are to consider ourselves blessed. A resurrection awaits us. A kindgom has come and has been established that will know no end, and it conqurers and establishes justice and peace in the world through the weakness and foolishness of the cross, instead of the might of brute military force.
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TMK
So Jimmy what you going to do when ISIS comes knocking on your door trying to "evangelize" you and your family to their point of view?
Just curious. I am not sure what I would do. Hope it doesn't happen.
I still see no where in scripture where Jesus says we must allow evil men to take over the world. Jesus was talking to a small group of disciples about possibly being persecuted by their faith by either Rome or unbelieving Jews. I think there is a distinction between that and what ISIS is doing.
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KingJimmy
I'd probably be scared out of my mind. I would probably put up a struggle. And I'll probably die in the process.
The Scriptures operate under the assumption that evil men do in fact rule this world. Such men were so evil that they crucified the Son of God. I'm not sure if it gets much more evil than that.
And no, there is no distinction between what Rome did and what ISIS is doing.
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Ruach34
TMK - i mean no disrespect in anyway, but your question is hypothetical and can only generate hypothetical answers. What do you want Jimmy to say? That he will pull out two uzis and saw them all in two with a blaze of bullets?
Further, these hypothetical questions are becomming more real or closer to home, that much is true. But we cannot excuse away all that King Jesus said to us. They are as much real now was when he spoke them. In fact, they have become Words to Die on. Amen. What King Jesus asks of us is absolute resignation to Him. If He is sovereign, and He is, and Loves us, then nothing can seperate us from that.
Amen.
D
dfella
Rich,
The story is found in Isaiah 10 and the specific verse is 10:5.
Isaiah 10:5 KJV O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is Mine indignation.
Isaiah 10:5 ESV Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is My fury!
It is God that used the Assyrians to punish guilty Israel yet the Assyrians do not realize they are being used of God because they have their own plan and agenda for destruction just like ISIS, those before her, and those who are sure to come after.
S
sermonindex
What would I do if ISIS came knocking at my door to convert me. God willing, show them the love of Jesus and plead with them to be saved. Of course I probably would be killed. But then we should be dead to ourselves so that Christ may live in us.
Bearnaster
M
murrcolr
Quote: If you stop and think about what Phil Robertson has articulated, his stance is fundamentally no different than the terrorists perspective.
Let the battle of the civilisation's commence...
Naw what our governments will do is seek out the 'moderates' - listen to there cries and help them promote a 'caliphate' for political and economic growth. This be backed if they promise to sign a peace deal with Israel for a two state solution...
President and Prime-ministers will hold up the paper deals and say there will peace in our time.
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rookie
dfella wrote:
"If ISIS happens to be the modern day Assyrian Army which is the rod of Gods anger against those who rebel against Him, the only remedy is repentance, not taking up arms and fighting against God."
Yes, if this is the case concerning the U.S. our efforts to resist what God means for judgement is futile. But in Scripture we find that God, concerning Israel in another time, the time of the Judges, uses war to cleans and test a generation...
Jdg 3:1
Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan
Jdg 3:2
(this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it),
With that said, God has made a covenant with Israel, yet we live in the times of the Gentiles. We know from the book of Daniel that the greatest empire was the Babylonian. And we know that the worst gentile empire is that of Rome.
I believe at one time 200 years ago, this nation of people were blessed by God and that many blessed God. Today, this nation has fallen back under the dominion of the Roman Empire. And I believe that there are still enough faithful Christians in this generation that would cause God to tarry with the final judgement of this land.
dfella wrote:
"As a bible teacher yourself you know full well that there is no place for Christians taking up the sword. I am afraid that many professors in Christ through fear will be lead into taking up arms to defend themselves."
I myself have come to this position for myself and family. I will not fight for this country, but I will fight to protect my family in the place I live. I will give up my life to protect my family. I and my son have trained at Frontsight in Nevada.
There are too many examples in Scripture where God requires man to take up arms. Abraham understood the times in which he lived. And God had already said to him that He would bless those who blessed Abram, and He would curse those who cursed Abram. Yet Abram trained and prepared his household for conflict. And we know that the High Priest Melchizedec confirmed that God gave him the victory over those who threatened Abram's household.
Unless God shows me beforehand this is my position.
In term of everything Phil Robertson said, I posted this video to testify about a man who demonstrates his use of the Scriptures to understand the times in which he lives.
Maybe more would come to that same way of living if times grew hard...only God knows.
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rookie
As I laid in bed at 3:15 this morning, considering the verse in Judges...
Jdg 3:2
(this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it),
If one continues, Israel began to marry with other nations that surrounded them. And God through the use of war cleansed Israel from the influence of the surrounding nations culture.
Then I though of Psalm 2
Psa 2:8
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
Psa 2:12
Kiss the Son,fn lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Then I considered Genesis...
Gen 11:7
"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
Gen 11:8
So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
Gen 11:9
Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
And then I considered Zechariah 14...
Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
From the beginning of time to the 1000 year reign of Christ there will be "nations".
And as for the individual...
Paul states in Acts, that God determines the generation and the place in which each individual finds himself in.
I have never thought of this before,,,but how then should we view our existence within the nation that we have been placed?
S
sermonindex
I been clocking IS for over a year now.
what struck me was, their proficiency in executing MODERN maneuver warfare, which means they were trained by a modern nation state.
also, their total disregard for the Geneva convention in the way they handle prisoners, ie. dispassionate execution, underlines modern techniques of total psychological indoctrination, to a war fighting cause, similar to the way, the Imperial Japanese Army did when they conquered Nanking, in the infamous "rape of Nanking", ie prisoners shot, women raped on a wholesale basis.
I said all that to say this, their number two man is a Chechen, whos' "nom de guerre" is Omar al-Shishani ( birth name-Tarkhan Batirashvili )
here's the wiki link on this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Omar_al-Shishani
right after high school in Georgia, he joined the Georgian army...he's an ethnic Chechen in Georgia, what the wiki link DOES NOT tell you, is that he was trained by US Special Forces, and probably other US intel entities.
that's all I have to say, except that in these dark days, the lies of the world are SO THICK, one can hardly see the haze...don't be fooled, white is black, black is white, but Jesus is Messiah.......and don't bother arguing with me on this, you'd have better luck screaming into a Styrofoam cup ....but I still send my love IN Jesus, n.
T
TMK
Hi Neil --
I certainly have no reason to doubt what you are saying but what are you trying to tell us-- that the US govt is behind and supporting ISIS? Or simply that some members of ISIS were trained by the US military? There is a distinction, at least to me.
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rookie
I had posted this article in News and Current Events...
To go along with Brother Neil's post, the leader of Isis was trained by the Mosad of Israel for over a year.
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sermonindex
with respect, don't put words in my mouth. I wrote what I wrote, and no more.
brother Jeff, though a lot of alt-media accuses m*ss*d of everything, including incubating alien babies, I seriously doubt they would even allow some of these characters into Israel....Arik didn't build the security wall for nothing.
I would look to the GID of Jordan as the likely "contractor", they have skills comparable to the Israeli's.
of all the fiction done on this hellishness, the one film that captures the reality of the haze in the middle east is a film, "Body of Lies" (2008)...it came out during the financial crisis of 08, and was ignored. its available for rental on amazon. I highly recommend it as a glimpse into the all the duplicity in the shadow world.......God love you both, that's all I want to say.
postscript to Jeff:, I read the article, and first, global research has their own agenda, (as does everyone) but usually when a writer refers to Israel as the "Zionist entity", they are usually hostile to Israel, second, its the wrong guy...they're writing about "Baghdadi" he's "number 1", if he's still alive, I was writing about number 2 man, he has a red beard.....and again I say, stuff is pinned on Israel, when its really a GID of Jordan op, the Jordanians NEVER like to see their name mentioned, their services are very good, but militarily they lack Israel's lethality....its a bad neighborhood, brother.
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TMK
I understand you wrote what you wrote but I must be pretty dense because I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It might be a great point; I just don't know what it is.
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rookie
Brother Neil,
Yes it is "hellishness" all this turmoil and speculation. And you have a greater understanding of Israel than I. So I differ to you.
There is a fog that hides what is truly going on in the world.
The first thing Solomon warned his son about was the formation of conspiracies and that much blood is spilt by those who conspire against the poor and helpless in this world...
Pro 1:10
My son, if sinners entice you,
Do not consent.
Pro 1:11
If they say, "Come with us,
Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
Pro 1:12
Let us swallow them alive like Sheol,fn
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;
Pro 1:13
We shall find all kinds of precious possessions,
We shall fill our houses with spoil;
Pro 1:14
Cast in your lot among us,
Let us all have one purse”””
Pro 1:15
My son, do not walk in the way with them,
Keep your foot from their path;
Pro 1:16
For their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed blood.
One thing we can be sure of is that those who are part of these "conspiracies" will seek to hide what they are doing. These people will have the devil as their adviser. And his skill at deception is well practiced.
S
sermonindex
after David, Hezekiah has always been my favorite OT king, and a MODEL of how to walk IN God. He was smart, clever,bold, inventive, yet humbled himself before God's prophet Isaiah, and loved and revered God Himself.
You can still see evidence of Hezekiah's leadership TODAY in Jerusalem....the water tunnels hewed out of solid rock, so when the Assyrians besieged the City of David, the defenders and people would still have water.
"He trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel, so that there was none like him among all the kings of Judah after him, nor among those who were before him. For he held fast to the Lord. He did not depart from following him, but kept the commandments that the Lord commanded Moses. And the Lord was with him; wherever he went out, he prospered. He rebelled against the king of Assyria and would not serve him. He struck down the Philistines as far as Gaza and its territory, from watchtower to fortified city.
2 Kings 18:5-8
but what I REALLY LOVE is the first command he gave:
"3 In the first year of his reign, in the first month, he opened the doors of the house of the Lord and repaired them. 4 He brought in the priests and the Levites and assembled them in the square on the east 5 and said to them, "Hear me, Levites! Now consecrate yourselves, and consecrate the house of the Lord, the God of your fathers, and carry out the filth from the Holy Place."
2 Chronicles 29: 3-5
now THAT is a leader, a Godly king!! of course more follows, and I could write about Hezekiah all day long...of course he had faults, in latter years, he got stupid with the Babylonians, he showed them the treasure, NEVER show the babylonians ANYTHING!, Wisdom cries out.
there is NOTHING good, pure or righteous about babylon, it has been and continues to remain wholly evil and foul.
C
ccchhhrrriiisss
Hello,
I have read comments from pundits and apologists in the media who talk about the need for "moderate" Muslims to speak out against groups like ISIS, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda. However, I just wonder if "moderates" truly exist in Islam.
On the morning that the terrorist acts of 9/11 took place, I was an undergraduate student living in my college dorm. I didn't have a TV or radio, so I received "breaking news" updates online. I was getting dressed for a class when my girlfriend's sister called. She sounded afraid over the phone and said, "Airplanes are falling out of the sky." After praying with her on the phone, I tried to open up Yahoo.com. The internet was very "congested" that day, but I did see a headline about an article about a plane that struck the World Trade Center (but I was unable to open it).
I walked downstairs to try the television in the dorm's student lounge. However, the television was not working. So, I walked down the hall to the dorm office. Inside was just one student worker. He was a student from Bangladesh with whom I had several engineering classes. Although he was very "westernized" and his parents worked for the United Nations. He was always easy to get along with and was very aware of my faith in Christ.
I asked him about this. He was busy with an assignment, so he had not heard anything yet. He tried to open up a page on the internet. He couldn't pull anything up. We chatted for a few minutes (about a lab assignment) and he eventually was able to pull up something online (but only the headline). So, he turned on the radio that was in the office. There was a news report about a second plane hitting the second WTC tower.
This office worker suddenly had a very serious look on his face. "You know why this happened?" He continued, "It's because of all of the Jews in the World Trade Center. They control all of the money."
I was astonished. He probably noticed the look of shock on my face because his own facial expression quickly went from serious to afraid. This was what everyone would call a "moderate" Muslim. He was very westernized. He liked football, baseball, pizza and burgers. He didn't dress in any outward way that would make anyone identify him with his religious persuasion.
That day, I walked to a different dorm building and watch the events unfold on the lobby TV. When I first sat there, no one was in the room (other than the person vacuuming the carpet). Within a couple of hours, there was standing-room only in that lobby and students were glued to the television. There were even students in tears and people who prayed out loud. I will always remember the look of anger when CNN showed Palestinians -- who have always portrayed themselves as "religious moderates" -- who were celebrating the destruction of the events of that day.
I can't condone what Phil Robertson said. "Convert or die" is just as radical as what the radical, militant Muslims believe. Jesus NEVER forced himself upon anyone. The very notion goes against God's plan for this world -- that people would freely choose to know, love and serve God no matter what this world would offer in exchange.
At the same time, I am perplexed by the unity of the Muslim religion. Historically speaking, Muslims have fought with one another since the death of Muhammad. Yet, they have a unifying cause in hatred for Israel (both Jews as a people and the physical nation of Israel) and anyone who might support their right to exist. I suppose that nothing can unite a group like a common "enemy." It may have something to do with that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy.
Unfortunately, Christians often lack the unity for which many groups misuse. We let so many things divide us that truly aren't consequential to the kingdom of God or life itself. I've seen believers "uninvited" from churches because they didn't adhere to a specific set of "we believe" rules at the local congregation (anything from tithing to what was considered outward "proofs" of salvation). Yet, we have a REAL enemy at work in this world.
Lately, it seems like Satan has been on a roll in terms of immorality and worldly enticements. Instead of uniting believers together in an attempt to reach this lost world, it seems that divisions often grow more pronounced and believers are now "grouped" by doctrinal differences that really don't matter (on anything but a personal level) in the scope of eternity.
I've often noted that we hear very little about divisions in the underground and persecuted church. Do they "shun" believers on the basis of apparently minor doctrinal differences? Do they gossip about other believers and pretend that such gossip is the result of being endowed by the "gift of discernment?" Do they gather in groups based upon allegiance to non-essential doctrinal differences?
I don't think so. Instead, I think that they cherish the fellowship of the saints and work to introduce Christ to those around them and allow the Holy Spirit to be the primary teacher through prayerful study of the Word of God. I suppose that persecution will eventually become common worldwide (maybe even while many of us are alive). While I would never want believers to be harmed, I sometimes think that such persecution would only unite real believers and make us focus on those things that are truly important.
The Lord bless you all.
S
sermonindex
I have read comments from pundits and apologists in the media who talk about the need for "moderate" Muslims to speak out against groups like ISIS, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda. However, I just wonder if "moderates" truly exist in Islam.
Every good muslim believes Jesus Christ is coming back to lead Islam in a world-wide conquest so all will become muslim or be killed. So to have some radical groups speaking of a world-wide calphaite does not seem so very far fetched. Currently 1.7 billion of the world is Muslim in name. They do believe its possible to convert and see the majority of the world turn muslim.
on another note, where Blaine commented I wanted to go further with this question:
As Christians we are to love our enemies how do we love ISIS?
K
KingJimmy
We can love ISIS by praying for them, and discouraging our political leaders from declaring war against them. We can tell them we do not want to fight them, and that we would rather bless them instead. We can love ISIS by not demonizing them in our speech with others, and slandering them online and in person. And no matter what they do, we should seek to treat them as they would want to be treated.
E
Elibeth
WHAT,...Did Steven do ?
elizabeth
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TMK
Jimmy-
Slandering is telling untruths about someone. Telling the truth is never slander.
T
TMK
Also--
The way they want to be treated is for every soul on the planet to convert to their demonic religion.
K
KingJimmy
ISIS as deplorable as they are, are still human beings created in the image of God. When we dehumanize them, we make them nothing but animals for slaughter. God would have us treat no man such a way.
S
sermonindex
Elisabeth,
Dear sister if I remember correctly Stephen said Father do not hold this sin against them.
Jesus also said Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Blaine
S
sermonindex
So TMK what do you think we should do regarding ISIS? What is your solution to their ongoing threat?
Blaine
S
sermonindex
Romans 8:36
Just as it is written,
"For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
Brethren,
Dietrich Bonhoeffer said that when Christ bids a man to come to him. He bids him to come and die. Like it or not, as followers of Jesus Christ, we are called to die. Jesus told us this when He sad that we are to take up our crosses and follow Him.
The persecuted already have this mindset in places like North Korea. When one follows Christ there they say I am already dead.
So ISIS wants to kill us. What difference does it make? Should we not be ready to die for the Lord Jesus Christ? If we are martyred for Christ we reign in heaven. And according to Revelation 20 martyrs will certainly be reigning in the Millennial Kingdom.
I think we do better to listen to Jesus then to Phil Robertson.
My thoughts.
Bearnaster.
T
TMK
I don't view ISIS as persecutors of the Church. I view them as an ideology bent on world domination. Like Nazi Germany. So I believe they should be dealt with as such before their movement grows beyond a tipping point. We can't just stand idly by while they either convert others to their demonic religion or slaughter those who refuse.
Don't forget that they are murdering people who are not Christians. Lord have mercy.
K
KingJimmy
Rome did the same
D
dfella
Rookie asked,
I have never thought of this before,,,but how then should we view our existence within the nation that we have been placed?
1 Timothy 2:1-6 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
D
dfella
Rookie wrote,
There are too many examples in Scripture where God requires man to take up arms.
Brother, What scriptures in the NT would you use to support a follower of Christ to take up arms? Are we not told not to war after the flesh, but the spirit?
2 Corinthians 10:3-4 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Our war is not with ISIS and will never be fought and won in the flesh, NOT for Christians that is.
Ephesians 6:10-18 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. (11) Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. (12) For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (13) Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. (14) Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; (15) And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; (16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
You mentioned that you and your family have trained in Nevada. What were you training for? Are you preparing to have to defend yourself and family?
What did Job mean when he made the following statement?
Job 3:25-26 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. (26) I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.
S
sermonindex
TMK,
Brother as I read your post is it possible that you may have to rethink your eschatology. I say this respectfully.
If memory serves I think you embrace a preterist view of scripture. If I am wrong then please correct me. But one holding to a preterist position will have difficulty dealing with the evil of our day. Believing the judgments already occurred around 70 AD.
But if one believes that Christ is yet to return. then ISIS is merely an evil that God is using to bring about his plan for the ultimate redemption of his people.
Bearmaster
T
TMK
Bear - at best I am a partial preterist because I do believe that probably all of the Olivet discourse was about 70 AD.
But I definitely believe in the future 2nd coming of Christ.
Answer me this: was God using the Nazis to bring about His ultimate plan of redemption for his people? How about the Japanese army and the rape of Nanking? Pol Pot? Stalin? Mao?
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sermonindex
TMK God will use whatever He wills to accomplish His redemptive purposes. That includes evil.
Bear.
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rookie
dfella asks:
"What did Job mean when he made the following statement?
Job 3:25-26 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. (26) I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came."
Ecc 12:11
The words of the wise are like goads, and the words of scholars are like well-driven nails, given by one Shepherd.
Ouch!
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sermonindex
Its funny how there are no actual Iraqi christians on this forum discussing the "theology" of whether the ISIS should be stopped with physical force:) Just a bunch of "Monday morning quarterbacks" who know everything:) I think when we have walked through a situation like those in Iraq and Syria are facing, then we would be more qualified to know when and how and what scriptures we should use in a situation like this.
Those of you who take a pacifist position from the comfort of your computer chairs, I ask you this. Would you be able to fly over to Iraq and confront the christians who are taking up arms to defend their wives and children? Would you seriously be able to do that...to tell them that "Jesus said you have to turn the other cheek." If not, then why say it here?
I am pretty sure no one here would have the courage to say these things face to face with people who have lost everything and are fighting to survive. Twisting the scriptures to say more than it says is exactly what false teachers do. Jesus speaks of cheeks being slapped...and if you want to keep twisting this, then you have no right to EVER again denounce any false teacher who twists scriptures about money and prosperity to say what it clearly doesn't say.
Personally I take no position on this. Let each man purpose in his heart what he should do. Some feel they should run and hide, others feel they should stay and fight and protect their people. I highly doubt though, there are any who feel that they should lay their heads on a chopping block and wait for ISIS to ride into town:)
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TMK
Well stated awakened.
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savannah
Someone asked "How do we love isis."
Someone replied,"...We can love ISIS by praying for them, and discouraging our political leaders from declaring war against them."
Praying for them Yes! But 'discouraging our political leaders from declaring war against them' is utter foolishness because it is anti-biblical counsel.
The Word of God counsels us if we'd only have ears to hear!
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Romans 13:1-3
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:4
Jesus was not addressing the above when in the garden with Peter. But it certainly is addressed here by Paul in no uncertain terms.
Paul says in Acts 20, "For I have not shunned to declare unto you the whole counsel of God."
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. Isaiah 28:9,10
You shun to declare the whole counsel of God! And what you wind up with is watching your own women and children being slaughtered and your virgin daughters being raped.
Again I say to you, go and learn what this meaneth...
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Romans 13:4
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Romans 13:1-3
Governments(whether they be good or evil)are ordained of God. Whatever power they have has been given by God.
Hear Jesus,
Then saith Pilate to him, Speakest thou not to me? knowest thou not, that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldst have no power against me; except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me to thee hath the greater sin. John 19:10,11
If men and women would keep to their own calling we'd be done with such idiocy as we observe and read about.
I'm not the president of the U.S. nor are any of you. I am not a woman and so I do not attempt to follow any calling a woman is called to by God. I am not an employer or business owner therefore I leave them to their callings whether I agree with them or no. Do you know what your calling is? Then by all means fulfill the same by God's grace.
Put up thy sword and fight the good fight of faith where you are and with what you've been given.
May God give all of us the grace to hear as well as the grace to heed.
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sermonindex
Savannah respectfully you are taking Romans 13 out of context. Temporal government is given to keep order in its own political borders. To prevent men from reverting to the law of the jungle so to speak.
Our responsibility as regards temporal government is only to submit to it`s laws as long as their laws do not conflict with the gospel. And pray for those who lead in temporal government that they lead wisely and justly. And they come to know Christ.
We as believers in Christ are citizens of another kingdom. It is a spiritual kingdom. The only war that the believer is called to is a spiritual war that is faught with spiritual weapons.
My thoughts.
Bearmaster
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sermonindex
Since Rom. 13 had been brought up Let's also consider Rom. 12:14-21.
.......Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. Never pay back evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengence is mine I will repay," says the Lord. "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink, for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil by good.......
Brethren I did not write these words. But they were given by the Holy Spirit through Paul. I ask, respectfully, if Phil Robertson read this part of scripture in His Bible.
Michael Sattler martyred for his faith said I am bound by scripture. May the same be said of us.
Bearmaster.
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sermonindex
while a lot of saints are having fever dreams about being martyred on Main Street USA at the hands of some concocted jihadi threat to the US....need I remind you what I posted below; it is fact that the "number two man" in ISIS was trained by US forces......and doesn't it seem the slight bit suspicious that on the American main stream media, its "ALL ISIS, all the time"? ....painted as 'supermen muslim killers'?
can't anybody see the SET-UP?...they fill the body politic with fear...in America using the complicit media, and then one bright shiny morning we all wake to see burning towers, and within minutes, the "villain" is named....and the comes the "patriot Act", ripping the constitution into threads, domestic police forces now militarized, AND politician's, and concerned citizens working overtime to strip us of our second amendment RIGHTS...forget about 4th amendment rights, against unlawful search and seizure...they're GONE.....phones tapped, emails read, etc.
don't you see the picture?
the Patriot act was nursery school compared to the POWERS "given" to the President, the NDAA gives him dictatorial powers should there ever be another "national emergency"
I read Israeli newspapers all the time, they are nowhere NEAR this hand wringing fear soaked coverage of "ALL ISIS ALL THE TIME"...and those guys are right next door!....and another tell is that ISIS doesn't threaten Israel , like that whole universe of arab car crazies.
the reality is, these arabs are like children, who sit atop some thing we need REALLY BAD.....oil. so we play them, like marionettes, puppets...use them, and our leadership works overtime fooling US, get us in fear mode, to strip Liberty and Freedom away, shred the Constitution.
now what's that got to do with the Church, the Body of Christ?
Everything...all these machinations and trickery is the spirit of Babylon....you watch, don't be fooled, the devil is a liar, he's a murderer, and he fills men's hearts with visions of power, greed and lust. They are easily seduced.
I speak the truth in Christ......test the Spirit if you think i'm wrong.
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TMK
If it's all about the oil why don't we just take it? I think we could whip 'em if we really wanted to.
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KingJimmy
When Jesus said to love your enemies, he was talking about the Roman Empire. Rome was much more brutal and demonic than ISIS.
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TMK
At least Rome allowed Paul an appeal.
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sermonindex
TMK do you believe that believers are called to suffer for Christ?
Bear.
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sermonindex
TMK, it doesn't matter how well I said it my comments are completely ignored by bearmaster and kingjimmy.
Blaine and Jimmy, would you do us all a favor and either refute or agree with what I have said, because it goes to the heart of this thread and the recent attacks on Phil Robertson. Thank you.
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sermonindex
Mark respectfully my post out of scriptures were addressing your comments. I chose not to engage.in a point for point rebuttal.
In essence my understanding of scriptures is followers of Christ are to love their enemies as commanded by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount. Also followers of Christ are called to one war. A spiritual war. We are ultimately citizens of a heavenly kingdom. Can't explain it any other way.
Brother if you are looking for a debate I am too old for that. Now I must stand down. Bro you have the last word.
Good night now.
Bear.
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sermonindex
I get the last word??? Wish my wife would say that:) My last word is this brother...
...what Phil Robertson, you and me think about these things are in the scheme of things, very inconsequential and...
...I love you very, very much brother Bear!!!
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Sree
Jesus himself said that his kingdom is not of this world otherwise his servants would have faught for him. A Christian should follow Jesus's footsteps and our kingdom should also not belong to the world. Neither should we expect anyone to fight for us. If ISIS wants to take the all the worldy kingdom then what is it to do with me? I am not of this worldy kingdom.
Now can we apply this to US and say US should do nothing against ISIS? All the teachings of Jesus are applicable to individual believers who are his disciples not to nations. No nation in this world can be a Christian nation. So we cannot say apply this to US army and say what they should do.
Regarding the questions asked here like 'what will you do if ISIS breaks into your house?'. I will not worry about that today nor make any preparation. God will give me grace at that hour. I do not want to panic or be anxious about what I will do. God is still in throne, whithout his approval not even a hair in my head will fall.
Regarding all the discussion about Government taking away my fundamental freedom. As a Christian we should be happy as long as we have freedom to worship our God. Anything beyond that is a bonus for us. Here is my take on this, if I am stopped in airport or did a strip search for being a Christian, it will not bother me even a single bit. As long as they let me carry a Bible and worship my God it is fine. In Acts, Aposlte Paul when he was imprisioned in Roam, he was given very minimal freedom to meet the brothers who visit him. He was not given freedom even to go and meet but rather only to meet those who come to him. Do you guys think Apostle will be worried about this lack of freedom and complain?
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KingJimmy
I'm sorry awakened, my participation in this thread has been hit and miss, and mostly from my iPad. I've not been deliberately overlooking anything. I will try to respond more fully soon.
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KingJimmy
Awakened,
I think when we have walked through a situation like those in Iraq and Syria are facing, then we would be more qualified to know when and how and what scriptures we should use in a situation like this.
Perhaps. But I would like to think that we know what the Scriptures say because we have made careful inquiry of them, and know what they say before terrible things happen to us. We should be careful to guard ourselves against reading our experience into the Scriptures.
Then again, looking at the recorded experience of the early Christians who endured greater persecution than those in Iraq do today, I don't recall anything from history recording how they took up the sword and defended themselves against the Romans. And why should they have? Their Master didn't fight back against the Romans, and He taught none of His disciples to do so either.
I am pretty sure no one here would have the courage to say these things face to face with people who have lost everything and are fighting to survive
I'm pretty sure I would. But if you wish to call into question the integrity of my teaching ministry, you can feel free to do so. I won't defend myself.
Those of you who take a pacifist position from the comfort of your computer chairs
One could argue you are calling upon the United States of America to do your killing for you from the comfort of your computer chair. How easy it must be to bask in the freedom individuals like my brother provided you when he fought in Afghanistatn and Iraq. You slept in comfort while he slept in terror, with the Muslim call to prayer often being his evening lullaby and morning alarm. It must be nice. Thanks for voting for President Bush to send him into harms way on your behalf. My family appreciates your bravery.
Twisting the scriptures to say more than it says is exactly what false teachers do.
I'm sorry, but the notion that the Scriptures ever teaches "just war theory" is actually twisted. You will never find such a theology taught anywhere in the entirety of God's word. The Bible never supports the idea of waging war on some sort of imagined ethical grounds. It does, however, say a lot about doing everything you can to avoid fighting somebody else, and lovingly, peacefully, and prayerfully resisting them when they do harm and threaten you.
The only "justified" wars ever recorded in the Bible are the one's that God called the Hebrews to wage in order to take the promised land. It involved wholesale genocide at that. They involved killing women, children, and even animals.
And when they waged war, they were to do so only do so at the direction of prophetic revelation. They weren't just to do it because the situation seemed right or because somebody was in danger, or because they had a moral philosophy about war. Indeed, God regularly scolded the kings for fighting wars He didn't authorize.
It is my contention that the "holy wars" of the Old Testament were authorized by God for a brief dispensation of time. As Solomon said, there is a time for war. But I believe that time has passed because of the New Covenant, and the work of Christ on the cross. Death has been defeated. And we are no longer ministers of the covenant of death given under Moses, but we are ministers of a new covenant, a ministry of life, wherein we are made ambassadors of Christ to act as agents of reconcilation. We are to make ourselves busy spreading the reign of peace that His kingdom knows.
I believe we live in the time spoken of by Isaiah and Micah, wherein we teach the nations to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hoooks, so that they will no longer learn war. Jesus Christ sits on His throne. Death has been defeated by means of the resurrection. And because of the resurrection, we have lost all reasons to go to war, for death is no longer the final answer. For we know now that if we die, yet shall we live again, all because Jesus Christ has overcome the grave.
People only fight in war because they fear death.
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rookie
Sree wrote:
" Anything beyond that is a bonus for us. Here is my take on this, if I am stopped in airport or did a strip search for being a Christian, it will not bother me even a single bit."
I was stopped by airport security when they check my carry on. He said to me something to the effect, " Sorry we are going to have to arrest you. I found a weapon in this bag. He pulled out my bible and said it's against regulations carrying swords around.
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proudpapa
" Take Our Lord Himself, we read that He went into the Temple and cast out them that sold and bought, overthrew the tables of the money-changers, and in a voice of thunder ordered the whole crowd out. Is He the "meek and mild and gentle Jesus” there? Up to the time of the war we had a Christianity that had lost the element of fight, the element of grit and judgment; the war has brought back these elements. There is something appalling about human life, and if we make our own private conscience the standard and remain in the offing on the conscientious line, we shall come under the curse of Meroz who "came not to the help of the Lord . . . against the mighty.” "
Oswald Chambers
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But then Jesus said on the cross. Father forgive them for they know not what they do.
Bear
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proudpapa
"My aim is not to be the saving of my own soul, getting myself put right for heaven, but battling to the death for what the Cross of Christ stands for. The great thing is not the teaching of Jesus, but what He came to do for the human race, viz., to make the way back to God. It cost Him His life to do it, and the writer to the Hebrews says, " Consider Him . . . lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.” Have I got the iron of the Cross of Christ into my conscience, or am I a weak sentimentalist, kind and generous, but with nothing of the nature of the Cross in me? Is there anything in me that would go to the death for Jesus Christ’s sake, or do I easily knuckle under because I base all on the teachings of Jesus instead of on His Cross? Conscientiousness is an ingredient in human nature, but the first and foremost relationship in Christianity is the sovereign preference for Jesus Christ.
Oswald Chambers
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sermonindex
KingJimmy,
For the record I am not a war monger and I disagree with the American invasion of Iraq. I am not an American and I have no dog in this fight, especially not one that puts any hope in voting or in an American president. Ha...thats quite funny actually:)
I would love to see you or some other American christian standing in front of an Iraqi christian defending their family with a weapon and you quoting scriptures and telling them to turn the other cheek. What a sight that would be. In fact why not make that happen??? You could record yourself making an "open letter" video statement to all Iraqi Christians - telling them to turn the other cheek. Be sure to quote chapter and verse and make sure it is King James only to drive home your point:) But whatever you do, don't smile or look too comfortable when you record this...in fact wear shabby, untidy clothes and film yourself in the middle of a violent protest with a frightened look on your face. That way your message will be taken much more seriously:)
Though I am being satirical, this was basically the point of my original post, which I am sorry you seem to have missed. I do thank you for taking the time to respond though, but this discussion has now become pointless:(
Signing off (on this one). Maybe:)
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KingJimmy
Ah, ok :-)
R
rookie
I post this with the only intent to give comentary on "turn the other cheek" and "give your enemy your coat."
This ia an example of "turn the other cheek and give your enemy your coat.
Gen 26:17
Then Isaac departed from there and pitched his tent in the Valley of Gerar, and dwelt there.
Gen 26:18
And Isaac dug again the wells of water which they had dug in the days of Abraham his father, for the Philistines had stopped them up after the death of Abraham. He called them by the names which his father had called them.
Gen 26:19
Also Isaac’s servants dug in the valley, and found a well of running water there.
Gen 26:20
But the herdsmen of Gerar quarreled with Isaac’s herdsmen, saying, "The water is ours.” So he called the name of the well Esek,fn because they quarreled with him.
Gen 26:21
Then they dug another well, and they quarreled over that one also. So he called its name Sitnah.fn
Gen 26:22
And he moved from there and dug another well, and they did not quarrel over it. So he called its name Rehoboth,fn because he said, "For now the LORD has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land.”
Gen 26:23
Then he went up from there to Beersheba.
Gen 26:24
And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, "I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham’s sake.”
Gen 26:25
So he built an altar there and called on the name of the LORD, and he pitched his tent there; and there Isaac’s servants dug a well.
Gen 26:26
Then Abimelech came to him from Gerar with Ahuzzath, one of his friends, and Phichol the commander of his army.
Gen 26:27
And Isaac said to them, "Why have you come to me, since you hate me and have sent me away from you?”
Gen 26:28
But they said, "We have certainly seen that the LORD is with you. So we said, ‘Let there now be an oath between us, between you and us; and let us make a covenant with you,
Gen 26:29
‘that you will do us no harm, since we have not touched you, and since we have done nothing to you but good and have sent you away in peace. You are now the blessed of the LORD.’”‰”
Pro 16:7
When a man's ways please the LORD,
He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
No other questions, only posting of Scripture.
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