What is the rapture and what happens before the rapture

A biblical study

For those that study Doctrine with scripture

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What happens before the rapture

Jesus descends from heaven with a shout
There is the voice of an Archangel declaring
There is the Trumpet of God
There is the Resurrection of the dead in Christ
There is the immortal change of those alive in Christ
THEN there is the Rapture

The Rapture is the action of being seized; the rapture word is only used 13 times in the NT as shown below
Matt 11:12 the violent rapture the kingdom of heaven
Mat_13:19 The wicked One raptures the word that was sown in a mans
Joh_6:15 The people decided to rapture Jesus to make him king
Joh_10:12 The wolf raptures the sheep
Joh_10:28 No one shall rapture us out of gods hand
Joh_10:29 No one shall rapture us out of gods hand
Act_8:39 Philip was raptured away from the eunuch to another place
Act_23:10 soldiers tried to rapture Paul to take him to the castle
2Co_12:2 Paul speaking of a man raptured to the third heaven
2Co_12:4 Paul speaking of a man raptured to the third heaven
1Th_4:17 believers raptured after Ressurection
Jud_1:23 saving others by rapturing them out of the fire
Rev_12:5 Jesus raptured to the throne of God to rule
Biblically speaking Remember what comes before the rapture, it is a worthwhile study to look at all of the verses relating to all of the events before the rapture.

The biggest event is Jesus coming and the Resurrection.

There is a mystery.

Once you understand what "Christ in you, the hope of glory" means, your questions about the meaning of rapture will melt like spring snow.

But nobody wants that. They want a Hollywood show with a multi-course dinner to follow up on a cloud.

Tom,

What is your understanding on "Christ in you the hope of glory"?

In Christ: Phillip

Two simple answers to two simple questions:

Ques. #1)What is the rapture? Answer - A Myth

Ques. #2)What happens before the rapture?

Answer - It is Myth-o-Logically Relativistic

John 6:37-47

In short, "Christ in you" means that my destiny is to be conformed completely into the image of Christ. I believe that in a way God has only one son, the anointed carrier of all the righteous character of the Father. So far, we see Jesus as the only demonstration of this. But through His atoning death and resurrection, all men are now welcome to become sons of the Father, stamped with the image of the "firstborn among many brethren."

"To as many as received Him, to them He gives the authority to become His sons."

I do like the picture Jesus painted regarding the kernal of wheat, abiding alone. The kernal remains unchanged until it enters the earth. Then it is buried and no one ever sees that kernal again... until the plant comes up and produces a myriad of kernals that are exactly like the one that was buried. "But if it dies, it brings forth much fruit!" Each kernal now bears the exact image of the original kernal, and so it shall be with us. When Christians are resurrected, they will bear the image of Christ, becoming His body, ruling with a rod of iron, being the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Most of Christendom and mainstream theology have a hard time with this. In a way, they so idolize Jesus that He must always remain is a special class without peers. I understand this, but the word of God seems to be very clear that we who overcome and are resurrected into glory will be just like Him.

Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am ye may be also." For most, it just means they get to live in a mansion in Jesus' fancy gated community. I see this as His invitation to the disciples, and by extension to me as well, that we will be in the same place of intimacy and authority as Jesus is. The head and the body flow together to comprise that one son beloved of the Father.

I hope that is clear, that "Christ in you" is a glorious hope imbedded by the Holy Spirit into those who seek Him with a whole heart.

This also is, in my opinion, The Rapture. But my eager anticipation is not a trip into the sky, rather a completing of what I have already received with my baptism in the Holy Spirit. I have a Passover experience in my new birth, a "first fruits" experience in the Holy Spirit baptism, and I await a Tabernacles experience where I will receive incorruptible eternal life in the image of Jesus Christ.

It is my belief, and I am certainly open to correction on this, that once I am "raptured" into His image I will be a part of the army of Psalm 149 driving Satan and his minions completely off the earth. In Romans 8 Paul lays out the plan for delivering the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- another reference to this great deliverence.

My third reference comes from the Lord's prayer which I believe has a prophetic element- Jesus commanding the disciples to pray that the will of God be done in the earth as it is in heaven. Apparently, this is something the Father earnestly desires. Funny how through years of monotonous repetition we don't take it very seriously. I believe Jesus is no less serious today as He was the day He commanded it.

Nothing new or strange here really, the course of a man taken from condemnation under sin to full salvation has long been threaded into the things God has done and placed in His word.

I believe He is even more anxious than we ever could be to see His Son standing in fullness before Him. And His Spirit within me desperately wants to be a part of it all!

I suggest reading and meditating on the Psalm (149) and the latter half of Romans 8. See if God speaks to you in it in a fresh way? Further, Paul in Ephesians and Colossians makes many references to both the mystery of our coming new identity and the consummation of our lives into the Body of Christ. Well worth time and meditation, asking God to open it up in your heart.

The baptism in the Spirit is called the Pentecostal experience because it first appeared on Pentecost following Jesus' resurrection. The disciples were instructed to wait for it, and when the day of Pentecost arrived, the fire was lit and the body of Christ came alive.

Pentecost, 50 days after the Passover, was the feast of "first fruits," when the people could have a little taste of the produce coming at the full harvest and the feast of Tabernacles. If the first fruits were good, they became excited at the prospect of the full harvest- they already had a little taste of it.

You can see how God was working in this, how He gives a measure of His goodness to us that we might have substance to our hope for the treasure awaiting us when we all come into final maturity.

Paul said, "not that I have already attained, but I press on to the mark of the high calling..." He knew there was so much more, because he had tasted some really good stuff.

This is the one verse in the bible that suggests the traditional rapture popularized by Darby and Schofield after Margaret McDonald's prophetic utterance in 1830.

It has no corroborating verses and theology, but is being given to the Thessalonians as part of the comfort of the gospel to believers who were grieving over the deaths of their believing loved ones. In those days, there was no perception of the gospel going forth over the succeeding 2000 years- they were of a mind that the return of Christ was very imminent. They thought they were missing something.

The verse is intended to comfort these fairly new converts with simple assurance that at the last trump they would be joined both to their Savior and their loved ones. It is not intended to countermand the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25, or even the restoration scenario Paul presents in Romans 8.

My original point is that Jesus is calling and preparing us to be transformed completely away from our current bondage to disease, sin, and death into His perfect likeness- living eternally, spiritually whole, without blemish or any curse. "Be ye perfect as My Father is perfect!"

Once this is a reality, it makes no difference where you are physically- whether the air is chemical or spiritual, whether you are standing on Terra Firma or flying around in the sky. Rather, the best place to be is in the perfect will of the Father, doing whatever He has given you to do. He has promised a new heaven and a new earth. I have no idea how that will work out!

Which brings me back to Psalm 149. That's what I want to see, and truth be told- what I want to do! But I will be most content just being loved as He sees best.

I go believe in a rapture, but not TWO raptures. One rapture at the second coming of Christ. The creation of the new heavens and new earth happens at this point- at least that's how I view it.

Elijah too was "raptured" similarly to Enoch. In neither of these cases was a pattern for humanity devised, or a theological paradigm created for humans to leave earth without death. I do not consider these to be raptures, in that my understanding of rapture is based on other things.

To begin with, Jesus' transfiguation on the mountain in the presence of His three disciples seems a better illustration of what rapture is all about. Several of His parables spoke of finding a special treasure- a lost coin, a pearl of great price, a treasure hidden in a field- and also of selling all He had to buy the field. We take these as illustrations of His great work of redeeming mankind, and rightly so. But just what was that pearl, that treasure He found?

I would suggest it is the rapture He experienced on the mountain, the glorification that for a brief time He wore in somewhat public view. We must not forget that Jesus was a man, and had "not counted equality with God to be grasped, but emptied Himself and became obedient unto death."

From His conversation with Satan in the wilderness where He was challenged to prove He was the Son of God, Jesus knowingly rebuffed the great liar and said this: "MAN shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from God." In other words, He told Satan that He was going to defeat him not as God, but as a man!"

This is critical, because if He had not become fully man He would not have qualified to die as a man for our sin.

And so this "man" walks up onto the mountain and receives the reward of His righteousness, a glorification hitherto unknown by any mortal man!

It is at this point He could have returned to heaven, the bosom of the Father, and the joys of that presence. He would have completed a sinless walk on earth and received the glory that a righteous man should have. It was His to hold for all eternity. But He would not have us.

As we know, He took it off and laid it aside. Driven by a love for those disciples and us by extension, He went down the mountain and onto the cross. There He purchased for us the right to have exactly what He had on the mountain. Complete rapture!

Let me boldly say, I have been raptured in a measure, with a little taste of the glory. Weeping, blubbering out praises in English and other tongues, filled to almost pain with adorations and gushings of love and adoring of Jesus my savior! It was a baptism in His Spirit, a rushing of energy and emotion that words fail to adequately describe. It changed my life, and it changed the bible, too! Suddenly I had an inkling of what John was talking about in chapters 14, 15, 16, 17. He comes to abide within, making His home there! Oh! So that's what that means! It is indeed rapture!

Now, typing on the keys of this device is an old man with crochety joints and diminished physical strength. I cannot fly, have a hard enough time jumping! But I burst inside for the consummation of what I have tasted, longing to be clothed with the Lord Himself who loved me and gave Himself for me. I shudder to think of how He loves me even more than I love Him!

Parsing verses to prove theological points is usually fruitless, people don't change their views very easily. The desire to win arguments is just old flesh in me, I flee from it in the Spirit. But I would encourage my brethren who have never had a Holy Spirit baptism, or are not sure, to ask The Father for it.

It may change your perception of rapture, it did for me. But just hearing from God is enough. The Spirit, The Helper, will guide you into all truth.

Thank you, Krautfrau! Good words and a great testimony! I have known people whose baptisms in the Spirit lasted multiple days, so glad you had that experience.

You are indeed right about prowling spirits, but we have a direct promise from God that those who seek Him will find Him. Those who are motivated by a lust for power or a drug-like experience are more than likely to find their way into Satan's cold bony fingers. It will be nothing like the genuineness of falling in love with Jesus.

The true baptism will be filled with the truth of scripture, and be marked by a hunger for His word. Still- the Liar never sleeps, never loses his contempt for God or His precious creation. Those who are filled with the Holy Spirit are well advised to join themselves to other mature believers so that the love of Jesus can flow back and forth.

Attacks will come, cling to the Overcomer.

Iv experenced much the same when i was baptised with the spirit ,,unspeakable joy extasy ,fear and trembling . tears and more tears of gratatude. my hands and face felt unbelievable pleasure ,,this was ten times more powerfull then my new birth ....

But that is not what the bible is talking about when it says we will be raptured and caught up together to meet the lord in the air when he comes to slay the man of sin ,and our bodys ar changed in the twingling of the eye ,and we are glorafied .... We are still waiting for that ,and even more fillings of the holy spirit

So now your saying there is no literal bodily second coming of Christ and a rapture at that time ,,so all the great men of god lake raven hill tozer Wilkinson Wesley Whitfield ,washer ,,are all wrong and you are right ,,that is great pride . I even would bet if i was a gambler ,,that side walk believes in a literal second coming of Jesus and a rapture that occurs around that time
So he would not be supporting your fasle teaching , please correct me sidewalk if im wrong ..

You've been deceived you you believe that Christ wont come back ,that is obviously another false teaching of the quakers

the man of sin who is the literal Antichrist , is not the old man who was me , but the son of perdition .

Paul called it the blessed hope ,we hope for what we dont see ,it is an event that we are to concentrate on ,to hope and wait for . Paul doesnt seem to agree with what your saying ..

The bible is clear that it is not as you say, speculative theology and never has been in the Christian tradition ,though it varies. Paul wrote is letter to the Thessalonians ,so there was no speculation amongst the brethern ....

With respect to you and the title of the thread ,this is about what happens around the time Jesus comes back , not baptism in the spirit .....

Gary do you think there are two raptures(I.e. one to take Christians out before the tribulation and a second at the 2nd coming?

krautfrau... I dont think it is wise to interpret the scripture through you experience you nullify the word of god by doing that , Paul clearly said to every Christian in the Thessaloníki that the day of Christ had not come yet .

Neither he or they had experienced it , the meeting the lord in the air or have his body changed in the twik ling of the eye when the dead are raised,so how could you think you have met the lord in the air ,see you nullify the word of god with traditions ...

tmk ... no i lean to wards just one rapture at the end of the tribulation

The subject line of this thread presumes a physical catching away rapture, as is taught widely in Western Christian churches. I brought up the baptism in the Holy Spirit because I believe it is intimately connected to the yet to be revealed rapture phenomenon, and quite frankly alters the definition of rapture.

Good theology is revealed in the words of Jesus, the prophets who came before Him, and the types and shadows woven into the historical bible narrative. The events surrounding the Exodus from Egypt are classic, the deliverance from bondage, the sacrifice of the lambs, the sprinkling of the blood- all pointing forward in a sign to the true Lamb of God, the true sacrifice on the cross, the beginning of the New Covenant.

The great protection we have in these foreshadowings is that men have great difficulty introducing heresy. These foundations are from long ago, built line on line, precept on precept, not the musings of just one man with a great idea. And exactly why I am so skeptical of the post 1830 rapture doctrine. I cannot see it in the character of God or the words of the prophets. Nor in the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 25.

You do see how the teachings of Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Mohammad and a host of others have created religious systems held dear by many. But they all begin with a powerful personality claiming to have his own special revelation from God, and lacking the credibility of the prophetic stream. To me, the book of Mormon and the Koran are rantings of nonsense.

Jesus Himself made powerful assertions, even claiming to be God. But the difference was the prophetic stream that preceeded Him. He was able to fulfill ancient prophecy and every qualification of the prediced Messiah. No one else has done anything like it, and He stands alone in all human history as the true Son of God.

To address the other matters in this conversation, I would refer you to 1 Peter 1:13b "...and set your hope fully upon the grace coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

This is wide open to be interpreted both in the near term and the long term. Whenever the grace of Christ comes to you it is a fulfillment of hope, both in a modern day baptism in the Spirit and at the time of the full consummation where we are conformed fully unto Him. Hope is always a virtue, sustaining us as we move from glory to glory, from any small revelation of Christ to larger ones, to the full harvest final revelation.

Well done, Peter!

From what I have read and understood with Krautfrau's previous postings, she believes in sinless perfection, attainable in this life. She has been excoriated for her views on this forum, sometimes without much Christian kindness. She has borne it well and continues to be a valuable witness to the grace of Christ living within her.

I agree to the point that I believe Christians should live above sin, should be a genuine witness to the sinning world that we do not live like that, do not buckle to every temptation, do not comfort ourselves with the Augustinian notion that sin is a natural part of our human makeup. The bible never teaches that sin is anything normal, from the beginning where God tells Cain, "sin is crouching by the door and wants to have you, but you must master it!"

I believe Jesus has the right to expect righteous behavior from His followers, and they should stand in stark contrast to the sinning people of the world. We should not be carried away by our lusts, and when we find that we are- all should stop for a season of repentance. Sin needs to be dealt with quickly and completely, continuing in it is just defiance and in accord with the working of Satan.

So then I strive not so much for "sinless perfection" which has to it the ring of "doctrine," but rather for the daily righteousness that pleases the Father- my heart's desire overall. I pack a full load of repentance in my humility pocket, and use it when necessary. Without humility, repentance doesn't work and it's a real mess if I lose the humility. I depend on the grace of Jesus Christ to restore me, and I set my hope on that.

So we have now made a complete circle, still eagerly hoping for the grace coming to me at the revelation of Jesus Christ!

1 Thess. 4:15-17:
" For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep."

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (Raptured) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

1 Cor 15:51-52
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Now whether you believe it is pre- trib, mid trib or post tib, one thing is absolutely clear in scripture, that there is a physical Rapture (catching up) of the Saints unto Jesus at the time of His 2nd coming.

To try and say it refers to a spiritual experience is to deny the clear words of scripture and I would ask those who claim they have experienced this rapture fulfilled spiritually this. Did you go up to the clouds, in the air? Did you hear the last trumpet blown? Was your body changed to become immortal?

If not then you did not experience this rapture according to the word of God.

Quoting Tozer: ' We are suffering to day from a rash of amateurism.'

It amazes me, when I started this post I revealed what Paul stated in 1Thess 4 and that is that the Resurrection takes place before the seizing, if we are not in the resurrection then we will certainly not be seized.
Paul said this in 1 Cor 15

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus is the First and afterward at His coming all in Christ shall be Resurrected.

Resurrection was the doctrine of Jesus, John and Paul.

In 1 Thess 4 the focus is on the Resurrection.

Paul states very clearly the following

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

and

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I ask all this one profound question If Jesus is bringing with Him all that have died in Christ how can He also at the same time raise all the dead in Christ, are these not the same people?

The only way that this is possible is that those that have died and rest in Christ have not yet been clothed in their immortal bodies, when Jesus comes He will raise their dead bodies incorruptible and our spirits will be clothed immortal.

Is this not the same as what happened to Jesus, when He died He left His body, but three days later He returned to that same body that was raised Incorruptible and Immortal, there was no body left laying on the slab of rock, His scars were visible in His Resurrected body.

Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Joh 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Jesus was raised from the dead and we also will be raised from the dead.

THE RESURRECTION IS SO IMPORTANT AS THE DOCTRINE to be focused on

Hi Savannah! You are actually a member of this site and you believe the rapture is a myth? That's more mysterious that the rapture itself. I would suggest for you to begin reading the Bible. Jn 14:1-3 and 1Thess 4:16-18 is a good place to start. :)

I think savannah does not believe in a pretrib rapture. No big deal there.

I don't either-- I believe there is one rapture when Jesus returns.

docseth1,

I have been a member of this site for years myself and guess what, I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture either. :)

Like TMK, "I don't either-- I believe there is one rapture when Jesus returns." Amen!

Hi All,
I have come at this subject a few times on the forum not because I am an expert but only because God in his wisdom has given me some scriptural insights.
You cannot understand the end times without understanding Elijah and all that relates to Elijah.The subject includes the typology of Elisha,3 1/2yrs-1260days etc,John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus.If you you study this you will get insight to the timing and purpose of the rapture.
Also people wrongly think that Christians will be instantaneously removed and in so doing believe that the rapture is not visible.
It is because of this lack of understanding that many people have a negative expectation of what is going to happen.They ignore what the bible clearly says that before the rapture life will be going on as normal.
I too didnt understand until God pointed it out.So I encourage you to study the complete typology of the rapture through the lens of the Elijah story,
Yours Staff
p.s
The answer to your question is "Life goes on as normal" before the rapture for those that dwell on the earth.

The theology of the pre-tribulational rapture is built ENTIRELY on the idea that there are "two peoples of God" with "two different sets of promises" and "two different destinies."

The "scholars and theologians" who have historically held this view have long taught that the doctrine of the pre-tribulational rapture, as quoted from Thesselonians, is more "inferred" than the direct result of extensive exegesis on relevant passages centered around the Second Coming. They believe it is "inferred" because their theology of the "two peoples of God" literally demands a pre-tribulational rapture.

They believe that God has to bring an end to the present church age so He can again deal with the Jewish people. And that God cannot do this unless the church is somehow removed. Thus, every single passage about the Second Coming of Christ is expanded to include a double interpretation that includes the pre-tribulational rapture. It's not that anything in the passages about the return of Christ actually teaches these things. But they see it as a theological necessity, as God has different dealings with humanity, and these dealings cannot happen at the same time, but must be held at different times.

Unfortunatley, a lot of well meaning saints have received such instruction from so-called "prophecy experts," who have taught them that certain passages about the Second Coming are actually describing the pre-tribulational rapture, when in fact, those passages don't. It was only viewed that way from the eyes of such experts because they already had a system in place that demanded it to begin with. But most teaching on the "two peoples of God" theory that Dispensationalists hold to simply flys over the heads of many.

In my opinion, most people who believe the pre-tribulational rapture theology as taught today do so devoid of any historical and theological context. Even though many don't believe in any notion of a "two peoples of God" theory, we still are left with the "theological leftovers" of a Dispensational framework, which has been forgotten by many. But that still hasn't kept this strange doctrine from being taught anyway. The result is that that this doctrine is taught by many, without any connection to the theological system that gave it birth.

Frankly, I think as Christians become increasingly theologically illiteratre, and with sermons becoming increasingly liberal and self-helpish, I think we'll eventually see this doctrine disappear from the American landscape in the next 100 years or so. It'll eventually be relegated as something of a myth. And while there is much that is bad with that in and of itself, as I hate to see one bad doctrine replaced by other bad doctrines, I somewhat welcome the vanishing of this theology.

Apart from 'apostasy' another related big event is the 'end of time of the gentiles'. Whether this will happen before or during rapture has been proposed.

Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Hi KJ
i think as i said before if you look at the rapture through the lens of
elijah you would have more understanding than just the standard for or against arguements presented about the rspture
urs staff

Hi Staff,

There is nothing in the story of Elijah that connects me with the idea of the Second Coming of the Lord, and the ascending of the saints to meet the Lord as He descends. Nor is there any verse in the Bible that makes a connection to that story and the return of Christ.

As a reuslt, I can't make the connection you've made. There is nothing in the Bible to cause me to do so. Using vague typologies to create primary theological themes is something to do with extreme caution.

Hi
look again the tpyologies are not vague
urs staff

Staff,

Kindly show us. I see zero correlation.

Quote;"""They believe that God has to bring an end to the present church age so He can again deal with the Jewish people. """

The AC is given power from heaven to kill all the saints.
This is problematic for midtribbers,postribbers and historicist/catholics.

Dispensation would be a bracket of time (adam in the garden)
(time of judges) (time of captivity in egypt) etc. No boogey man there.
However the historicists would have major scriptural roadblocks with the mark of the beast/vs beheading,the tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will see again,the fiery hail from the sky and the stinging locusts etc,etc.

The rapture is simply the groom fetching the bride. Amazing that the only group teaching this Groom/bride event is pretrib. The rest of the theories center and major on the "GT"
The only group that can honestly say they are waiting for Jesus the GROOM to fetch the bride is, again,us pretribbers.
We are commanded to watch and wait.Those that malighn the pretrib doctrine are essentially saying "He is not coming back anytime soon" This is dangerous ground.

"""The theology of the pre-tribulational rapture is built ENTIRELY on the idea that there are "two peoples of God" with "two different sets of promises" and "two different destinies." """

Anytime I see something like this it reminds me of the many times believers will take small cross sections and try to use them to define other believers.
The pretrib doctrine is scriptural.
Brethren taking the word of God,systematically applying the facts and recording what is, and what can not be.
postrib is impossible. The Ac kills all the saints,and the bride returns to heaven,not earth.(10 virgin parable)
IOW,show me this uturn somewhere in scripture. Show me where,after the judgement,the family of God IMMEDIATELY returns to the destroyed location. ...so postrib is eliminated as a candidate.
Same holds true for historicist. the impossibilities turn those theories into rabbit trails.
Ask yourself"why is that all theories other than pretrib try to use vague accusations against "origins" or "theologians" instead of biblical exegesis?
Just my opinion.

Hi King Jimmy,
Firstly I was trying to show a different way of studying the subject a way that I believe is from God.
Typology in the bible is very important if you throw out typology then you have to throw out verses with "Lamb of God" and typology of the temple for example.God uses typology all the time.
In the verse below we see that although John the Baptist has died we see that Jesus says "Elijah is coming and he will restore all things"So although he goes on to say that John was indeed Elijah we Know that Elijah comes again and restores all things in the future.We see that the Elijah to come to restore all thing is not John The Baptist.
Then we ask what does this Elijah restore that is to come?
To find out what this restoration will look like in the future we have to study carefully what the past Elijah's restored(namely John the Baptist and Elijah the thisbite)
When we look carefully at Elijah unique role we find that this Elijah is linked to the rapture;
.......................................................
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.” and His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
.......................................................

The problem is that you are asking me what happens at the end of the movie without looking at the movie yourself,
I think if you take the time to corralate what the work of Elijah the thisbite and John the Baptist was you will see the ending of the movie yourself
Yours Staff

Hi Psalm1,
I think that thats a fair comment whether you are a post or pre trib believer that the Post tribulation view does not preach the Bride coming back for his Bride or at the best not with the same enthuasism or passion.
Yours Staff

Quite frankly I think the subject of the rapture is a massive distraction from the clear teachings of scriptures. I can not put my finger on the power button fast enough when I hear famous preachers on the radio begin to speculate on "end times". It has become a division among His church. It has become a podium of pride for those who have some secret understanding of what is in no way clearly taught.
He is coming back! Be ready. That is what is clearly taught.

Quote;"There is nothing in the story of Elijah that connects me with the idea of the Second Coming of the Lord, and the ascending of the saints to meet the Lord as He descends. Nor is there any verse in the Bible that makes a connection to that story and the return of Christ."

It think the confusion is in trying to force the rapture into the same event as Jesus' return with the saints on white horses.
You need to study this concept first,Then the bride and groom, and you will see the groom does not go to war with his bride in tow.(ask yourself why she is called the wife immediately before they mount the horses of war)

But as for the very scriptural rapture/elijah thinggy,just off the top of my head we see both rising alive to heaven without Jesus and a army on white horses. We also see Elijah continuing on to heaven as in the pretrib model.
Several things are absent a) a destroyed earth b) destroyed marine life c)no beheading for not wearing a mark d) a mark in order to buy... and so on.

Kinda messes up postrib if they wanted to draw a type/antitype picture,but that is how it is,once you test the pretrib model against the word.....it all falls in place.
Shalom my friend

Hello timg,
I know what you are saying,but for me it is just the opposite.
I find the mysteries of the bible riveting,and "intriguing"

I love hearing others concepts of what they are understanding as well as my own opinions of those parts of scripture.

I will also say that ministers, in my opinion, should teach the rapture,as that was the setting of the 10 virgin story.IOW someone told them to go wait for Jesus and they all obeyed.
Now a days nobody is giving that command.(enter other theories against his imminent return)

Quote"The problem is that you are asking me what happens at the end of the movie without looking at the movie yourself,
I think if you take the time to corralate what the work of Elijah the thisbite and John the Baptist was you will see the ending of the movie yourself
Yours Staff"

Exactly!
We pretribs hear all the time how we got this or that through some corrupted devil writing or some silly mess.
Isn't it interesting that those same folks have a mysterious force field preventing them from exploring the pretrib verses?

Staffs verse:"......Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished......"

I kinda got a chuckle out of this when i realised that after over 20 years of debate and study I realised I have never once ,that i can remember,noticed anyone other than a pretribber that had a "revelation" on a hidden truth.

Not trying to be haughty or ugly but we own this dimension big time. LOL!

Staff,

I think you are a little confused about how typology in the Bible works. Bibles "types" are only apparent after a revelation has been clearly made known, of which when we look back, we see patterns that emerge that mirror what happened when Christ came.

It's like a story in any book or movie, where there are things that foreshadow the climax of the book, but they are not clearly seen until after the climax happens. Prior to the climax, you may see hints of things to come, but it is only after the grand reveal that you "see" what was always "hidden in plain sight,"

The problem with arguing whatever it is you are from Elijah, which I still don't get, and I used to be a pre-tribber myself, is that you are trying to prove the doctrine of the rapture from a "type." In actuality, types work the other way around. Doctrines prove types and make types clear... not the other way around.

For example, Paul teaches Adam is a type of Christ, or that Abraham and Isaacs relationship was a type of death/resurrection. These types wouldn't have been clear had Christ not come. The revelation of Jesus was necessary to make the types of the past known.

So, as I see every reference in the New Testament to the "coming" of the Lord as a reference to his literal return to the Earth to rule and to reign for a thousand years, forgive me if I find your appeal to types to be unconvincing. But if you could show me explicit teaching regarding a pre tribulational rapture, then perhaps I might see the types you reference more clearly.

Any doctrine whose primary appeal is to the flesh of man is to me highly suspect. The pre-trib rapture has that written all over it. Paul declares that the Hope of Glory is a revealed mystery, and the mystery is "Christ in you!"

Apparently that continues to be a mystery to much of the church even though he let the cat out of the bag nearly 2000 years ago!

And Jesus actually demonstrated "rapture" in the presence of Peter, James, and John when He was transfigured before them on the mountain. For a few minutes there He wore the resurrected body. At that point He was the only human qualified to wear it, and knowing this He took it off so that He could purchase one for me... and you!

What He had was life, eternal, not corrupt or subject to death, and not needing to fly away in the sky for any reason. "I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, ye may be also." And that was what the "place" looked like!

Nope. We want dinner in the clouds and a mansion in a gated community. Flesh dies so, so hard!

Hi KingJimmy,
I am not confused at all about how typology works.Jesus made clearly known that John the Baptist was Elijah and John the Baptist made clearly known that he himself was "a friend of the Bridegroom".So when you look at anything to do with the Bridegroom coming for his Bride you have to take Johns words into account.The mistake John made was that he thought Jesus's First and Second coming were the same and he squashed all the prophesys into the first coming and wondered why they werent all being fullfilled.
I am not trying to prove merely from Type but Jesus himself said that John was Elijah if you care to accept it.In effect he was saying John was a type of Elijah the thisbite.He did the exact same work over the same timescale.
The work of Elijah is always to restore.
Few people know that Pentecost for instance could not have happened without Elijah.Ironically the problem with Pentecostal types(of which i am one)is that they havent got a clue about Pentecost!!
Trying to understand the endtimes without understanding Elijah is folly.
Dont let the reason be - you dont want to study it just in case it changes how you look at it.
Yours Staff

Hi Psalm,
I guess what I am saying that Jesus said Elijah will be sent before his Second Coming and ask the questions
what will his work be?What will the end product be?
The work will be restoration and the end product consummation.
I want people to study Elijah seriously so that they will have a real understanding about what is going to happen and that understanding will help them be more positive about the future.For isntance as i said few people know that without Elijah that Pentecost would not have happened,
Yours Staff

Hi Sidewalk,
This statement is just glorified name calling
Yours staff

Any doctrine whose primary appeal is to the flesh of man is to me highly suspect. The pre-trib rapture has that written all over it. Paul declares that the Hope of Glory is a revealed mystery, and the mystery is "Christ in you!"

The Return of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead
------------------------------------------------------

1 Thes 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

-------------------------

I picked this passage about the Second Coming of Christ because it is perhaps the most straight forward passage of Scripture on the topic, and because it is also one of the most popular.

Whether or not you carefully or superficially look at this passage of Scripture, you will notice that it says nothing whatsoever about any notion of a pre-tribulational rapture.

First, you'll notice the entire absence of the idea of a tribulation. Therefore, somehow reading this passage as speaking to a pre-tribulational rapture is entirely missing from the text. You may have other texts you believe speak to a pre-tribulational rapture... which is fine. But this passage of Scripture mentions nothing about a tribulation, so please don't appeal to it as such.

Rather, it's a word of comfort written to believers who are grieving over deceased loved one's in the Lord. Paul tells these group of believers that they need not grieve and worry themselves to death, they have a fantastic and blessed hope.

What we experience when we die is likened unto a "sleep." While sleeping, we wait to be awakened from our slumber. And this, Paul tells us, will be done when the world's greatest alarm clock goes off.

One day, we are told that "the Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God" (v. 16) and Jesus Christ Himself is going to awaken the dead even as "He died and rose again." (v. 14).

When Jesus Christ "descends from heaven" (v. 16) at "the coming of our Lord" (v. 15), then "the dead in Christ will rise first" (v. 16) And those who are alive at this grand and glorious event, will be caught up to "meet" the Lord in the air, and God will "bring with Him" those who were sleeping (v. 14), and "so we shall always be with the Lord." (v. 17)

I'm sorry, but if you are reading into this passage a mysterious whisking away of the saints to some place over yonder, and taking them back to heaven, prior to the tribulation, you are reading something into the text that the text never says. To be frank... you are making something up.

Rather, the text says that the Lord is "coming," and as He "descends" He will bodily "raise" the dead first, even as He was raised, and then the rest of us who are alive will be "caught up" to "meet" the Lord in the air, as He is coming.

This, by the way, corresponds to the ancient practice of when kings came to a city, their citizens would go outside the city to greet and welcome their king.

I am not trying to prove merely from Type but Jesus himself said that John was Elijah if you care to accept it.In effect he was saying John was a type of Elijah the thisbite.He did the exact same work over the same timescale.

John is indeed a type of Elijah, this is well established. But this is not the same as saying that Elijah's life and ministry is somehow a type of the Second Coming and a pre-tribulational rapture. That, the Bible does not say.

I would kindly ask you to point out how and show how the scheme of Elijah's life and ministry corresponds to the death, resurrection, and second coming of Christ, and a pre-tribulational rapture. So far all you have done is made vague and confusing illusions and references, that seem to have nothing to do with eachother whatseover.

I'm fairly well versed in the teachings of the Bible, and I have a fairly solid grasp of Elijah's life and ministry. You keep telling me to study these things out, but frankly, with what you have said, I have no clue as to where to begin. Please show me how x corresponds to y.

So far, the more we talk about it, the more I get confused with what you are saying, and frankly, the more I become suspect that you, while being a perfectly nice individual, I am starting to believe that you don't have something more concrete to say. It's like you've cherry picked a few scattered references and concepts, and are attempting to mix oil and vinegar together. It just doesn't seem to be working.

Perhaps you might want to move onto something more "clear" and straight forward and simple to understand, instead of trying to peg a doctrine to a fuzzy typological reference that I'm just not getting. Show me some direct verses, and show me how the wording of those verses support the direct idea of a pre-tribulational rapture.

That's all I'd really like to ask at the end of the day. Especially since I used to hold to such a view.

Isn't it interesting that those same folks have a mysterious force field preventing them from exploring the pretrib verses?

I've read the Bible from cover to cover 10 or more times in my short life time since I've become a Christian (I've stopped counting/lost count). I've read some individual books and parts of the Bible, like Paul's letters, perhaps hundreds of times. I've read, re-read, and then read again all the verses. I am pretty familiar with a lot of the major stories without even needing to pickup a copy of the Scriptures.

I've even been to Bible college and seminary, and I've read numerous commentaries, hundreds of monographs, and academic journal articles. I've read people whose theologies I disagreed with, and I've read others who convinced me what I thought was wrong and what they said was true. I've even sat through hundreds if not thousands of hours of lectures, going verse by verse through many parts of the Bible. I've written hundreds (if not thousands) of pages of essays after conducting extensive research on numerous Biblical topics, and historical church figures.

I've also taught and preached hundreds of sermons, in the church and outside of the church, in homes, in homeless shelters, on street corners, in coffee shops, and in fast food restaurants. I've been threatened while preaching, harrased by police, harrased by muslims, harrased by homosexuals, and have even had people blow smoke in my face. Once at a church, I finished preaching and somebody in the congregation stood up and shouted, "I'm angry!!!" with what I had said. I've also seen a number of people wonderfully saved, and filled with the Spirit.

So... I think it is fair to say that my force field is down, and nothing is preventing me from exploring a few verses in the Bible. Really, I'm not afraid.

If you wish to make a point, please make a point, and show me what you have to say. I promise, I'll read it, but you may have to hold my hand throught the process so I can clearly see what it is you have to say. A flippant "just go read it yourself and see" attitude simply will not suffice. I've already read these things, and have opinions and beliefs on a lot of things. If you wish to change my thought process, show a brother some love, and help me see it as you see it.

I agree that the Elijah connection to the idea of a pre trib (or any) rapture seems tenuous if not non-existent. I have never heard this argument before, like KJ I was a pretribber at one time. I know that Elijah was whisked up to heaven in a chariot but beyond that I see no connection.

I agree with KJ that if you are more specific it would be helpful.

I agree that the Elijah connection to the idea of a pre trib (or any) rapture seems tenuous if not non-existent

In theory, if I were to try and go out on a limb and make a connection, I would appeal to how Elijah was taken care by ravens alongside a creek, or how Elijah was hiding for safety in a cave, while God protected a remnant of the prophets elsewhere.

Of course, in order to do such I would have to ignore other parts of the story line behind Elijah's life... like why he was running away in the first place, why the creek dried up, or why it was that in fact, Jezebel actually killed some of the prophets, and not all were spared.

Or if I were to connect it to Elijah's ascension, of how the Spirit was poured out on Elisah, who went on to do "greater things" than his master (which I would be ok with making such a "type" of the ascension of Christ and the Pentecostal outpouring). But as we all know, Elisah died. He was never whisked away to be with his master. He awaits the Second Coming of Jesus like the rest of us (assuming he wasn't among the few random saints that came back to life when Christ rose from the grave).

I'm sorry... I just don't see any idea of a pre-tribulational rapture "type" embeded in the story of Elijah.

Hi King Jimmy'
I have given you enough scripture for you to go and like the Berean search the scripture and see that it is true.Also it is you that presumed I was talking about a pretrib rapture I didnt say it one way or the other.
I do agree with pre trib christians treatment at the hands of others who call them fleshly and worldly etc which is unacceptable as both groups are brothers and sisters in Christ.
Yours Staff

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matthew 24:44

Did Jesus say this or didn't He?

You don't have to argue about eschatology, just be ready.

Hi TMK,
Jesus said that Elijah was coming again after John the Baptist was dead.He said that he would restore all things.
When we study John and Elijah we find that they did the exact same work.So we then can understand what work they did in the past we can also then understand what Elijah is going to do in the future.
By reading Acts 1 properly added to gospel scriptures regarding how the apostles came to Jesus we understand that Pentecost comes from John the Baptist a type of Elijah.
The pattern will repeat itself for a third time in the future and will end with the Rapture,
That is the outline but I think if you study it yourselves you will see the parrellels better rather than me spelling it out dont you think,
Yours Staff

Hi Drifter,
No we cant just be ready,
Yours Staff

Jesus so clearly tells us when He is coming but cannot tell us the day or hour, Jesus even tells us what will happen before He comes.
Is it not true that there are the many doctrines of men that cause division, but Jesus tells us the Truth, I will trust in the words that came out of the mouth of my Lord and saviour.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus is true with His words.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Jesus is clearly talking about the Day of His Coming after the signs in the Heavens.

Paul also states the Truth

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul also clearly states that there is an order to the Resurrection, First Jesus and Jesus only and afterward all of those in Christ at His Coming

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

God even said when this First Resurrection of men takes place

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I will believe the words of Jesus and God not the ear tickling theories of man

Is it the First Resurrection or isn't it the First Resurrection????

One thing that is very true is this
It is the theories and doctrines of men that causes destruction and division.

You only need to look at the doctrines of the Sadducees and Pharisees.

Gods Word is Truth and always Glorifies Himself, there is no deception in His Word, sadly it is the theories and doctrines of men that bring division and destruction.

All we have to do is simply believe every Word that comes from the mouth of God because it is true, who are we to think that we have the authority to make or twist Gods Word to fit our theories, who is being Glorified, God or man.

Let us base our lives and beliefs on the Clear Words of God, Jesus and His servants.

God said that the First Resurrection takes place at the Coming of Jesus.

Hi Budgie,
Jesus said these things below out of his own mouth among which he said Elijah is coming again and will restore all things
-------------------------------------------------------------
I will trust in the words that came out of the mouth of my Lord and saviour
-------------------------------------------------------------
17:11 Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

I realise these verses are from Paul not Jesus but are still relavent because we are not of the darkness it wont overtake us like a thief in the night

1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief

Yours Staff

Staff,

Being deliberately vague and simply saying "be a good Berean" and study what I tell you, and arrive at my conclusions... when it's not even clear what your conclusions are to begin with, is frankly...absurd. Why even post?

I think I'll back out of talking with you on this matter for now.

Grace and peace.

Hi KingJimmy'
I think that its only fair that if you are going to comment on the subject that you should be prepared to do a little leg work to see if it is scriptural thats what I am saying.
In The Past this is what Elijah did and it will happen in the same Pattern in the future.This is how God restores the Church to be ready when he comes whether pre or post trib.
Here is the meat on the bones sort to speak

Elijah Appears Mysteriously
John the Baptist appears Mysteriously
All Israel goes out to see Elijah
All Judea and Surrounds go out to see John
Elijah introduces 3:5 yrs of Drought
John introduces 3: 5 yrs of Jesus
Elijah deals with an antichrist figure in Ahab
John deals with an antichrist figure in Herod
Elijah deals with an evil woman called Jezebel that wants his head
John deals with an evil woman that wants his head
Elijah Confronts false Prophets
John Confronts the Pharisee and Sadducee
Elijah Prepares the Sacrifice
Their is wood- where the sacrifice is laid -
12 portions of Water-The water is poured over the sacrifice and the stones
12 Stones(tribes) are put in order
John Prepares the Sacrifice Jesus who he called the lamb of God by baptising
Their is Wood the Cross where the sacrifice is laid
Their are 12 stones the apostles who John makes ready or puts in order
The water is poured over the apostles and Jesus
Elijah's Sacrifice a bullock(representing burden) is at evening time
John the Baptist's sacrifice Jesus who burdened our sins at evening time
Elijah's Sacrifice was totally acceptable to the Father and is consumed by licking representing a tongue
John's Sacrifice Jesus is totally acceptable to God and Tongues appear at Pentecost.

So we can see that Elijah restored the altar of the Lord putting everything in order and in its rightful place and then Fire Fell from heaven
We can see John the Baptist restored the Altar of Lord putting everything in order except that Judas one of the stones was missing and Peter had to rectify that on the day of Pentecost. The qualification to become one of the twelve was that that person had to be baptised by John the Baptist then Fire Fell from heaven
Essentially Mount Carmel is a prophesy of Jesus Sacrifice for sin ending with Pentecost
Glory be to God for his word
Yours Staff

Staff,

In all due respect, if you are going to assert there are parallels, the burden of proof is upon you to show the parallels, not upon me to find them... especially since I claimed I'm already exceptionally familiar with the stories and claim not to see what you say is there.

Thank you for finally showing some of what you are talking about, and some of the parallels you see. I still don't see how you get a pre trib rapture out of the entire deal. If you wish to show that, feel free, I will read it.

But so far I see the list you have made to involve a far bit of stretching. The first half is actually not too bad. At best though, it shows that the Bible is fond of certain themes and patterns and numbers. These aren't exactly true types. Rather, they are more like common themes.

There is always people coming out of nowhere to confront false prophets, idols, or enemies, make sacrifices, with hints of death and resurrection, and doing things in 3, 6, 7, 12, 40, or some other multiplier.

Blessings.

Thank you for your analogies
insightful
I would like to discuss with you what is in 1 Thess 4:13 to 18 as to what Paul states, I think that every person who would study these verses would come to the conclusion that the Rapture (caught up)takes place after the resurrection of the dead, that being the case the main event that must happen is the resurrection.
Paul states that all those that have died in Christ are sleeping with Him.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Paul also states
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
I ask you this one question

If the dead in Christ are with Jesus and Jesus is bringing them with Him then who are the Dead in Christ that He is raising from the dead.

My answer is this, when Jesus died and left His body He was very active and speaking to many, He had a mouth, He was away from His body for three days yet he fulfilled all of the functions outside of that body.
After three days He came back to that body, it states that He was raised from the dead, His earthly body had been changed to immortal, His body was not on the slab and it was not in the tomb, it was His old mortal body raised immortal.
It would have made no difference whether His body was dead for 3 days or 3 years or 100 years, God would have raised that body immortal.
So was the immortal Body of Jesus from Heaven or was it made on earth?, I would suggest it is both it was the reward in Heaven to be given to Him on earth, His body had the scars.
I suggest it will be the same for us, the dead are alive and resting in Christ and will come with Him to enter into their immortal bodies that will be raised from the dead at His coming, finally we will be clothed in Immortality.
Jesus did it that way so why not the same for us.

Hi KingJimmy
The pattern of Elijah is a very clear and percise one.It always involves 3 1/2 years or 42 months or 1260 days or times time and half a time,It always makes way for Christ and it always comes before the Lord.The scriptures I have pointed out are clear not some vague numerology stuff.The parrellels are just as clear as the parrellels of the Temeple in the old compares to the temple in the new.
The main question that has to be asked is ?do you believe that Elijah will be sent again?If so then Elijah comes just before the lord not after.If not then you will have to explain away some scripture like Malachi,Matt 17,the baptism of Jesus,Peter and Acts 1-2 and the two witness's passages.
Peter at pentecost understood this pattern clearly because he stood up to make sure that the pattern was complete with the 12th stone.Peter understood that Pentecost originated with John the Baptist.The last thing done in Acts before Pentecost was the 12th stone was put in place then the fire fell.
John the Baptist didnt fully understand though because he sent a messenger to Jesus asking whats up?He made the correct prophesy about Jesus but didnt understand that the conquering King comes the second time.Jesus understood Elijah clearly.We know this because he taught the disciples about it coming down the mountain and Jesus understood that John was fullfilling prophesy when he allowed him to be baptised.Thats why its hard to understand the baptism of Jesus.John was fullfilling prophesy of Mount Carmel that the water would be poured over the sacrifice.Jesus said so that" all would be fullfilled".
Could you show where it is a "far bit of Stretching"?
The burden is on us to show what Elijah is meant to do when he came as John?and when he comes in the future?
I think the parrellels are simple and straight forward and there are more than that in the Elijah story.
If we want the fire to fall again then their will have to be a restoration of the Altar of the Lord.Only Elijah can do this.He can only do this when he is sent.
We have preachers today asking "where are the Elijahs?"
Only understanding Elijah as the confrontational,heroic and powerful Prophet but without really understanding his role in making everything ready for the Lord to Come.Not understanding that you cant make up Elijah he has to be sent.
Elijah in the future will make way again for the Lord to come we may not know the exact date or time but we will know the approximity the same as John the Baptist did.
Their is no point in the Harbinger or Forerunner coming after Christ is their?
Again we have to ask does Elijah come again?If so what will his Job be?
The Elijah in the future will make way for the coming of the Lord by again restoring the 12 stones and baptising with repentance.Once more "All" will go out to see Elijah in the wilderness leaving behind anything that is not of God in the city there power or positions to stand united in the one place with all other Christians.The barrier of denomination gone and the people of God restored to one complete body before the Lord comes made ready by the foreruner,
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
Give me a bit of time to consider what you are saying and I will respond if I can,Thanks Staff

Staff-

It sounds like you are saying that some day a literal fiery prophet with the spirit of elijah will come that people will be drawn to resulting in a revival and that we should start counting 3.5 years from when he appears to figure out when the rapture is going to happen. Is this correct?

If so, in your view will this new "elijah" be obvious? I.e., he couldn't be preaching today because if so we would know it?

Or might he be an obscure Elijah preaching somewhere where most people wont even know he exists?

Thanks staff for posting those things about elijah and jesus and the shadowing effect ,verry interesting

Hi TMK
that is more or less correct .
U have to understand that Gods view of someone who is " a voice in the wilderness"like john or elijah is about total success whereas the secular view is about a person who is correct but is not listened to only in hindsight.Elijah will b totally sucessful
yours staff

Please take the time to read the following, I have tried to keep it as brief as possible

The timing of the two witnesses
I personally do believe that Elijah is still to come and that he will come before the Day of Christs Coming.
Some say he is one of the two witnesses, I do not know but if he is then the timing of the two witnesses is critical.

Some say that the two witnesses come in the first half of the 7 year Tribulation period, I will prove scripturally that this is not true and that they are in fact in the last 3 ½ years.

Fact 1 There is no 7 Year Tribulation, look at what Jesus said
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus said that this precise period of Tribulation commences at the time of abomination spoken of in Daniel, and this is in the middle of the 7 year Treaty that was made.

Truth 1 is that the Tribulation Jesus spoke of is 3 ½ years long no longer no shorter

Fact 2 The two witnesses are present during the time that the holy city is being trampled by the Gentiles
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
The two witnesses only prophesy for 3 ½ years, the Gentiles only trample the Holy City for 3 ½ years, both spoken of at the same time.

Truth 2 The city is only trampled for 3 ½ years

Fact 3 The two witnesses are killed and raised from the dead just prior to the 7th Trumpet being blown.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Scripture is very clear as to the timing of their death and Resurrection, it is at the time between the 6th and 7th trumpet, it is at the same hour when a great earthquake splits the city of Jerusalem, 1/10 of the city falls and 7000 are killed, the Kingdoms become Christ and He shall reign forever, Jesus Wrath is Come and it is the time when Jesus is deciding who of the dead shall rise and He is rewarding His servants, the prophets, the saints.
Truth 3 The two witnesses are raised between the 6th and 7th Trumpet just prior to the Reign of Christ and His rewarding the saints and judging the earth

Fact 4 If the two witnesses are in the first 3 ½ years then all of the 6-7 seals and all six of the trumpets must take place before Abomination takes place, the two witnesses are raised in between the 6th and 7th Trumpet, that also means that Jesus is reigning and rewarding His saints, in the middle of the 7 years, some would call that mid trib.

Fact 5 You will not find anywhere in Revelations of it speaking of a 7 year period, nowhere is it mentioned, but what you will find is the constant mention of a 3 ½ year period, you will find that the focus is very strong on this very precise 3 ½ year period, the same as Jesus when He focused on a very specific period called the Tribulation which He said commences at the middle of a 7 year Treaty.

If one also does a study of the events spoken of that happen between 6th and 7th seals, 6thy and 7th trumpets and 6th and 7th bowls and overlaps them one will discover an amazing picture and how they blend so perfectly.

Hi Budgie
My thinking has been that its in the first half but I will look at what ur saying closely.
One other thing I think that this world in God's Eyes deserve a credible witness that the end is about to come.
I think that at the moment both pre and post trib believers would say that we do not have that today,
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
Just on 1 thess 4.13 I am looking at what ur saying and to be honest I need to think about what ur saying its complicated,
Yours Staff

Staff, thanks for taking the time to explain. I think for now we will just have to disagree. I'm still confused how Elijah serves as a type of the rapture. But that's ok :-)

Hi Budgie
On the first half of the post I agree that the Great Tribulation is clearly in fact only 3 1/2 yrs long.
I think that both Witnesses have the Spirit of Elijah;
I dont think that the commonly held view that the witnesses are Elijah and Enoch or that they are Elijah and Moses are correct.This incorrect view is based on two things.
One the body of Moses was hidden and Enoch was translated and it is appointed man to die once scripture.Also the powers of the two witnesses seems to point to Moses and Moses and Elijah were on the Mount Of Tranfiguration.

The scripture when Jesus says as in the"days of Lot and Noah"
represent a problem for your view that is if you view the Lot and Noah scripture as the rapture.
Remember one was taken and one left but when they were taken everything in the world was going on as normal,eating drinking marrying and crucially buying and selling which is one of the things the AntiChrist controlled with the mark of the beast.Two were at the mill and one was taken.Both these persons would have had to have the mark of the beast to be working for instance.Also there is no sign of disruption to normal life at all.The time Jesus is talking about here is definitely not a time at the end of a worst time on earth ever namely the 3 1/2 yrs of the great tribulation.
As tho the second half of the post is more complicated Yours Staff

Hi KingJimmy
A quick explanation is that Elijah is translated by Chariots.
Remember the Hymn Swing low sweet Chariot based on Elijah they understood that Angels were coming to take them to heaven even back in the 1860s they connected to the rapture.

Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home,
Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see
Coming for to carry me home?
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

But thats not scripture I know but it does show that it is a long held belief
John the baptist is a transitional figure between the old and the new.The Church begins with John not Jesus because what I said about John and Pentecost before.Elijah started the age and Elijah will end the age.The age will end with the rapture.
Mount Carmel is also the a type of the rapture in the sense that everything was consummed and brought up to heaven.Elijah will preach that Jesus is coming again soon and this time he is coming to judge,time is running out.......you better watch out.
You can then see why the people that dwell on the earth were so happy they sent presents when the two witnesses were killed.They died and nothing happened Yippee lets party sort of thing....It is at this time the rapture happens and not alone do the two witnesses rise but everyone else as well.Thats why dread falls on everyone because they are after witnessing the rapture and the witnesses were correct.Wrongly people think the rapture is in the twinkling of an eye.No people are changed in the twinkling but the rapture takes a few seconds or minutes.
The Holy Spirit delebrately leaves Elijah John and The witnesses as mysterious figures because he is sending a signpost saying study me their is a scriptural masterpiece here find it look it out I want to show you something great,
Yours Staff

Thanks Staff member, many get caught up with the 3 1/2 years of Tribulation and do not study the days still on earth that follow the 3 1/2 years.
It is important to remember these following vital points.
1. One is that the Treaty between peoples is only for a period of 7 years then it is over and life goes on.
2. The Beast only has power from God to wreak havoc against believers for 3 1/2 years then life goes on
3. The two witnesses only have power for 3 1/2 years to torment unbelievers then after that they lay dead in the streets for 3 1/2 days and are then raised, people are celebrating their death during the three 1/2 days, after this their is no witnesses to torment the unbelievers
4. The gentiles are only given power for 3 1/2 years to trample the Holy City and then life goes on
5. The believers that fled into the wilderness are only protected for 3 1/2 years and then the remnant return to Jerusalem
6. Jesus states that there are days that go on after the end of the Tribulation and that is the time when the signs are seen in the heavens, life is still going on
7. People are thinking that there is a time of peace because there are no witnesses inflicting judgement, no longer gentiles trampling the city, the beast has lost his power, there is a type of peace but it is not true
8. Joel talks very clearly about this period of time when the signs are seen in the heavens and there are many things happening, the armies are starting to gather against Jerusalem.
9. God puts it into the hearts of the 10 kings to destroy the whore city that has ridden on the back of the beast on the way to Jerusalem, this is clearly told in Revelations

If one were to look at this as an Islamic view then the armies would destroy Mecca and Medina and saudia Arabia on the way to Jerusalem because of the wealth that they have accrued while all other Islamic countries have been smashed.

We are seeing this happening right now, Saudia Arabia, mecca and Medina are full of wealth and prospering while Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan are being literally smashed.

Isaiah and Zecharia also have much to say about what is happening in the middle east after the Tribulation and during the time when the signs are seen in the Heavens

One must always remember that the Bible is a very strong middle eastern focused book.

I do believe by what scripture says that there is a time of false peace after the Tribulation ends. Jesus stated very clearly that if that Tribulation did not end there would be no believers alive on this earth, but the truth is that there will still be believers alive at His Coming.
Jesus stated that He would be Coming after these signs in Heaven, we do not know the day or hour but we do know the signs before hand

To Staff Member,
In short what I am saying is this
Jesus said very clearly that after the 3 1/2 year Tribulation ends there will be signs in the heavens, this happens after the 3 1/2 years is completed, no more Great tribulation the Beast no longer has his power to torment as his 3 1/2 years of power is ended, he is involved in the armies that are gathering at Jerusalem, and Joel clearly states that this gathering of armies takes place during the signs in the heavens, which Jesus very clearly described as happening after the end of the Tribulation,the believers in the wilderness are no longer protected because the 3 1/2 years of protection is also over, they were protected from Satan for only 3 1/2 years they don't just sit in the desert waiting after this time, it states that a remnant return to Jerusalem,the holy city of Jerusalem is no longer trampled by the gentiles, their 3 1/2 years is over.
Jesus very clearly stated that He will be coming to gather His Elect from the 4 points of Heaven and the 4 points of Earth to Himself when He comes, this certainly sounds like the Resurrection and being seized that takes place in 1 Thess 4 at the Time of the Resurrection of the dead and bodies on earth being changed.
Jesus brings with Him those who have died in Christ and Jesus raises the bodies of those that are dead in Christ incorruptible.
Sounds like the First Resurrection where all those dead in Christ from Heaven and all the dead in Christ on Earth and the living in Christ on earth are United with Him forever those in the Resurrection are Blessed and will reign with Christ forever.

All,

I was reading today in Matt 24 where Jesus said in verse 21-22: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

That has never stood out to me before, it seems straight forward that there will be "the elect" going (from beginning to end) through the great tribulation.

So according to the Word, the return of Christ will be afterwards.

Hi Lysa
Dont think its as simple as that.Who are the elect?
Is the Noah and Lot scriptures about the Rapture?
If so ...... it doesnt marry up with the times mentioned in Matt 24.In one its the worst time ever that needs to be shortened in the other they were living freely buying,selling etc
Yours Staff

Hi Lysa it is as simple as you read, when the Greek New Testament was written it was written to everyday Greek people who understood the language, they did not have to get a degree to understand, Jesus simply spoke the simple and clear truth, He told us when He is Coming.
You hit the nail on the head, yes it is a Tribulation that cuts off at the 3 1/2 years, it is finished, when you study the shortened word in greek it means to literally be cut off.
The Tribulation ends when the Beast loses his 3 1/2 yr power, the gentiles no longer have power to trample the city, the people in the wilderness are only protected for 3 1/2 years from satan then they return to Jerusalem, the 2 witnesses that persecuted the nonbelievers are gone.
If Tribulataion ends then peace again comes, the same as the peace before the Tribulation.
Jesus states that He is Coming after the signs are seen in the Heavens which happen some time after the End of the Tribulation.
It will be like the days of Noah after the Tribulation Ends but it is only a very short period.
There will be a Peace but it will be a false peace.
As for the Rapture it is a word that means to seize and it happens after the resurrection of the dead and after the bodies are changed.
Jesus and Paul used the gather word more than Paul used the seize word once, Paul used the gather word in 2 Thessalonians referring to us being gathered to Jesus.
Paul said that there is an order to the Resurrection
Jesus first and afterward all of those in Christ at His Coming when He will appear a second time.
This is the First Immortal Resurrection as spoken of in Revelations.
I will trust the words of Jesus.
Also there are scriptures that call us the Elect in Christ, I know I am Chosen by Jesus.
Keep it simple Lysa

Praise God I am of the Elect
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Jesus is Coming Just as He said
Praise God

The total destruction and massacre of Jerusalem and its people in 70 AD was great tribulation, worse than the world had ever seen.

Why is it so hard to understand that Jesus was talking about that event which would occur within the lifetime of his hearers?

I read where the false Christ is cast down to earth and appears to the world as the Messiah. Most people will believe he is the real deal and go visit him. The churches have not prepared the congregation for this deception. The oil in their lamps is mostly snake oil and as Carter Conlon said, it probably won't light. Jesus warns us that when we hear that He is in the desert to stay inside, don't go out. The two witnesses witness against this false christ in Jerusalem.

Many will wonder why they weren't raptured or carried off to heaven. It's a time of apostasy on the weak in the church. The internet sermon sites have done a disservice to the church. Ministers get sermons there. Most all hear the same sermon every Sunday. What a shame! This false messiah will perform miracles to deceive. Prepare yourselves. Take the lesson from Amos. Stay away from the Bethels.. (House of God)... Come to me says Jesus. We are near that time. Satan will only have a short reign, 5 months to be exact and it will be a spiritual battle. Deception deception deception.

After all he is the master. It looks as though he must have been the High Priest of the world before the age of flesh. He was covered with the same stones as the Levitical priests.

Be very aware of deception. Crack open the book. Start with the minor prophets.

Hi Budgie
If you are the elect who are the people in the "two at the mill passage where one is taken and the other left?
Who are the people in the "times of Noah and Lot passages"?
who clearly aren't living during or after a time like the "great tribulation"
Yours Staff

There is so much to your question so I will answer it in sections, first Noah.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Most people focus on the verses as if it is speaking of the wicked people being taken away, but this verse is speaking of Noah and his family being taken away.
Jesus is saying that these people were so busy with life up until the day that Noah entered the Ark and these people did not know until the flood came and they saw Noah and his family taken away in the Ark.
I will prove this to you using scripture.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;G142 G537 so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This G142 ( took them all away) in the Greek is made up of the Greek word G142
First G142 αἴρω airō pronounced ah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up,

DID YOU JUST SEE THAT
It literally means to lift anchor so as to sail away, to keep suspended.

It does not mean to drown or to be destroyed, it is quite the opposite.

The wicked people who drowned literally saw Noah and all of His family sail away to safety while they themselves were killed.
It will be the same when Jesus Comes, people will be so busy with their own lives until the Day that Jesus Comes, the Dead will be raised, those alive in Christ will have their bodies changed and the people will see us ascending to meet Jesus into the clouds, they will be left on earth for Judgement, there is no escape or deliverance just like the people that saw Noah and his family sail away to safety.

THE SAME GREEK WORD G 142 IS USED IN ACTS IN TWO VERSE REGARDING PAUL SAILING IN THE BOAT.

Act 27:13 And when the south wind blew softly, supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing thence, they sailed close by Crete.
Act 27:13 And when the south wind blew softly,supposing that they had obtained their purpose, loosing G142 G788 thence, they sailed close by Crete.

Act 27:17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
Act 27:17 Which when they had taken up,G142 they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands strake sail, and so were driven.

IT MEANS TO FLOAT AND SAIL

The verses could be written as follows for the most truthful translation

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood the wicked people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah and all of his family entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And the wicked people did not know until the flood came, and then they saw Noah and all of His family lift anchor and sail away, it was too late, they could not enter the boat; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

LET US STUDY AND SEE THE TRUTH
Jesus is coming and we will lift anchor and sail to meet Him in the clouds after the Resurrection.

Hi Budgie
I think you are missing my point yes they were so busy with life Marrying buying selling etc but the point is that they could buy sell eat drink and get on with everyday life.But during the great tribulation normal life is not going on at all and after the tribulation the earth will not be able to go on as normal.Again during the tribulation we wont be able to carry on as normal so the if you look at the two at the mill verse
One of the women will be taken whether the saved or not saved it doesnt matter because during the tribulation you wont be able to any of these activities or if you can you will need to take the mark.
40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
Just a post script is that Jesus said as it was in the days of lot and noah.how was it in the days of lot and noah?To add to the previous post where their was normal sinful and non sinful living Judgement didnt happen til Righteous Lot and Noah were take out;Thats the same I think that the world will be given a credible warning that Christ is coming to Judge and Judgement will happen after the righteous are taken out.
So these passages higlight 3 things or as Jesus says "as"
1.Normal living
2.Judgement after the righteous are gone
3.This Judgement is immediate
Yours Staff

From Luke 17:

"34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36]

37 "Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”
_______________

The persons taken are killed. In other words, the wicked are taken, not the righteous. No rapture here.

Hello Staff Member
I dont think that Jesus was missing the point when He said that He is Coming after the End of the Tribulation and that it will be as the days of Noah and that life will have some normality.
One must remember that Jesus said that the Tribulation was finished, History has always revealed that after wars, life continues and usually there is peace and celebration.
After World War 1 and after World war 2 people celebrated and married, the war was ended.
After floods and cyclones end there is a returning back to life and people do get married and work, the floods have ended.
As to the Tribulation life still exists, there has to be work for people to survive for 3 ½ years, are you saying that there is no electricity, no fuel, no shops, no work, no food produced, no clothing made, no rubbish picked up, no police or fire or ambulances, no hospitals, no doctors.
For war much is needed.
As to celebrations after the Tribulation look what happens after the 2 witnesses die at the end of the 3 ½ years of Tribulation.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Sounds like a party.
As to the period during the Tribulation there are many that are wealthy and doing well, much business and prosperity, look at the following verses that speak of the time of Tribulation regarding the great wealthy city and those who traded with her.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
I dont believe Jesus was wrong
Jesus said He will Come after the Tribulation has ended and that this time will be as the days of Noah
I will Trust Jesus is declaring the Truth
I believe.

Many guess the verses of being taken as being the wicked that are taken but do not study the Greek to see what Jesus really said.
I will show you this Truth using scripture

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

These verses are clearly talking about the Day of Jesus Coming.
There is a very special word that I want to look at in verses 40 and 41
The word TAKEN and the word LEFT.
First I want to look at this taken word as it is really misunderstood, it is the Greek Word G3880 paralambanō pronounced par-al-am-ban'-o
From G3844 and G2983; to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).

It is used in many verses (but the focus is not on removing) but on taking so as to receive to one’s self, in an intimate act or relation here are some verses that show what I mean
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to (take unto thee Mary thy wife:) for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and (took unto him his wife):
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own( received )him not.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and (receive you unto myself); that where I am, there ye may be also.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you (the gospel) which I preached unto you, which also (ye have received), and wherein ye stand;
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore (received Christ Jesus the Lord), so walk ye in him:
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye (received the word of God) which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we (receiving a kingdom) which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
The strong focus is on taking or receiving to oneself as in Marriage, So it is when Jesus Comes, He will take us or Receive us to Himself as the Bride and Groom.

The word LEFT is another Greek word that means to leave behind or to forsake.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath (forsaken) houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Mat 22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, (left his wife) unto his brother:
Mat 26:44 And he (left them), and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mar 1:18 And straightway they (forsook their nets), and followed him.
Mar 1:20 And straightway he called them: and (they left their father Zebedee in the ship) with the hired servants, and went after him.
Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath (left house), or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
Mar 14:50 And (they all forsook him, and fled.)
Luk 5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, (they forsook all), and followed him.
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, (and departed, leaving him half dead).

The verses in Matthew can be read as follows.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be received intimately to Christ, and the other forsaken and left behind.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received intimately to Christ, and the other forsaken and left behind.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So it is true, when Jesus Comes in the Clouds He will take us and receive us to himself, we will be appointed an office, but those that are forsaken or left behind will be judged, the same as the story of Noah, the same as when Jesus comes to earth in Revelations 20.
All the Prophetic books speak of the same, God delivers on the Day of Judgement.
Jesus Comes and receives us to Himself in the Resurrection, those left behind on earth who followed the Beast will face Judgement, with the beast.
Jesus really did give perfect Harmonious examples as to his Coming.
When did Jesus say that He would Come, after the Tribulation not during.
Jesus will gather us all to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and the earth.

Hi Budgie
its amazing that Jesus gave two examples where the righteous are taken out before judgement comes and you choose to skip over that fact as it isnt there!
Urs staff
p.s Jesus was asked about the Timing of his coming and he answer that question

Hi Budgie
on the other points not as important the two witness'can b celebrated because its at the end of the first half of the seventh week.
This is not a small war like ww1 or 2 it isnt even a war but judgements on the earth of all sorts.the earth clearly could.nt rcover
I promised myself i would stick to talking about Elijah because its something new when talking about the rapture .Elijah always the forerunner before the day of the Lord.
Even if we take Elijah coming during the great tribulation like u say
then ur timeline looks like this .3/12 yrs where Elijah preaches then the rapture where iscthe time for the earth to recover ?? Urs staff

Thanks Staff member for your reply

I have never yet once skipped over the facts that twice Jesus speaks of deliverance before Judgement, if you read them all you will see that I have actually totally agreed with it because Jesus said He would deliver us at the Day of His Coming after the Tribulation, after the signs in the Heavens, I even stated that this is the Resurrection of the dead.
Jesus said very clearly that He Comes after the Tribulation.

You said that the 2 witnesses die at the end of the first half of the week and the Tribulation has not yet come, they clearly die between the 6th and 7th Trumpet and that means by your statement that all of the 3 1/2 year Tribulation takes place right between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.

Do you agree with that statement of yours?

Also can you please give me a verse where Jesus is speaking where He said He is Coming before the Tribulation as I cannot find one?

Budgie-

You didn't address the verses I quoted in Luke which is a parallel passage to the Matthew verses. The disciples ask Jesus where those who are taken are taken to- Jesus says they will be dead, with vultures circling overhead. Likely in Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom) a place of perpetual burning where rotting corpses were tossed outside of Jerusalem during the Roman siege.

Hi Budgie
I use the name Staff after the walking stick "staff".!
I see the great tribulation the last 3.5 yrs as the "day of the Lord" which is a Judgemnt from God.The trouble in the tribulation is punishment from God not man.
So Elijah comes before the day of the Lord always.
Behold I am sending Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord.I guess the distinction is whether you believe the Great Tribulation is Judgemnt from God.If it is Judgemnt then the Noah and Lot passages would mean we are taken before that Judgemnt.
I saw one person say that 75% of all life will die during the 3.5yrs.How could they be living normally immediately after that period.It would take a generation.
I never studied the trumpets as much as other parts and I took the 7th trumpet to be the end of the first 3.5yrs period but I will look again .
As to giving a verse no matter what view you hold you wont get a clear one of verse for any view.
The nearest I see is "Behold I will send my Prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord"
Again I say without understanding Elijah and his role in the church and what he does you cant understand the Tribulation.Anything to do with 3.5 is to do with Elijah
Yours Staff

One thing that I have noticed is that you say "I see" as in (I see the great tribulation the last 3.5 yrs as the "day of the Lord")but you don't say what the Bible says.
Joel clearly describes the Day of the Lord as the event that takes place literally when the signs of the sun, moon and stars are seen and the Battle in the valley of Jehoshafat takes place, this is a very specific period and a time that happens after the Tribulation as Jesus stated.
You are saying that the Day of the Lord is 3 1/2 years long, if that is the case then the signs in the heavens are for 3 1/2 years and actually come at the beginning of the Tribulation, this is not what Jesus says not just that but you are also stating that the battle is also 3 1/2 years long because this only happens when the signs are seen, not just that but you are also stating that the following events are also 3 1/2 years long.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Is the above verses really a 3 1/2 year period, I doubt very much, all scriptures speak of this Day of the Lord as a Particular Day that starts with the signs in the Heavens and also when the Battle at Jerusalem takes place.
Jesus Himself told us in scripture that when we see these signs in the Heavens to look up for our Redemption draweth near.

Staff Member You ask me a lot of questions and I try to answer them all with the Word of God not my own thoughts or ideas, I answered your question regarding the day of the lord with the Book of Joel but there are also many other prophecies that speak of that same period and the signs in the skies.
I will now try and answer your next question.
I Budgie see the Tribulation as exactly what Jesus says and that is as follows, it is the Greek word G2347 thlipsis

From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

This word is used so many times in scripture and applies to us as believers as well as to the whole world, yes it will be a time of being all of the above, but Jesus does not say anywhere that it is a Judgement, it is a thlipsis.

I do believe that Elijah will come before the Day of the Lord that happens after the Thlipsis and when the signs are in the heavens as Joel states clearly, the Antichrist only has power for 3 1/2 years until the last day of the Tribulation and then after the Tribulation he has to use demons and people to assemble the army at Jerusalem.

Daniel speaks very clearly of a period after the Tribulation
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

We still do not know what exact day or hour that Jesus is Coming after the Tribulation ends but we do know that there are days that exist.

You said that you saw one person say that 75% of all life die during the 3 1/2 years, but what does the Bible say.

The book of Daniel and all the visions and prophecies is very middle east focused, the book of Revelation is very focused around the middle east, as are all prophetic books,the battle is at the land of God.
Maybe you should study the Book of Revelation and especially all of the Trumpets etc and then have a theory that is based on scripture not on mans thoughts and ideas and I say this in a very loving and concerned brother in Christ, and I apply these same words to myself, I have studied the scriptures and allowed the scriptures to be the Doctrine or Theory not mans words.
How can you say that the first 3 1/2 year period is in the 6th to 7th Trumpet area if you have never studied it, this would also place the Antichrist as being in that same 3 1/2 year period all between the last two trumpets.

I ask you again where in scripture does Jesus Himself say that He is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus own words that came from His Lips are that He is Coming after the Tribulation and at the times of the signs in heavens.

Hi Budgie
Here is what wiki says about it the bastion of correct intrepretation!
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The Day of the Lord is a biblical term and theme used in both the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and the New Testament. A related expression is the Great Day as in "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." which appears in both Old and New Testaments.[1] In the Hebrew bible, the meaning of the phrases refers to temporal events such as the invasion of a foreign army, the capture of a city and the suffering that befalls the inhabitants. In the New Testament, the "day of the Lord" may also refer to the writer's own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth's history including the final judgment[2] and World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ. This appears much in the first chapter of Isaiah.
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The day of the lord can mean when God comes,when God Judges,
and before the 1st and 2nd coming.It has a few meanings not as Narrow as you are saying.
Obviously when Jesus came 2000 yrs ago that was "the day of the lord".That day lasted from when he was born until he died and ascended.More specifically it lasted from the time John (elijah) baptised him until he was crucified.(3.5)
We see another Day of the Lord in the 3.5 yr tribulation when God makes a judgement on the world.If Elijah comes which you said he would then it will just before when Jesus comes.Interestingly the Jews are very specific about Elijah.
What they believe is he can only come before thursday of the week of passover as Friday is Passover.An early Jewish Rabbi in debate with Justin Martyr laughed that the Christ had come because their was no visible Elijah.
So when does Elijah come in your time line?
So the Tribulation is the Day of the lord but is not the only time described as the day of the lord.
Yours Staff

What you said is very true that Matthew and Luke are Parallel, they are speaking of exactly the same event and are in fact saying the exact same thing.
I looked in all translations and could not find in any that the people are in fact dead with vultures circling overhead.
But what is true is that the same word taken is used in Luke and in Matthew and that is the Greek word G3880
to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with). used in the following verse Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and (receive you unto myself); that where I am, there ye may be also.
So if you are saying that the taken word means to be destroyed and to be dead then you have missed the intimate words that Jesus is saying.
Also the body word in the Greek is referring to the body and is used for living and dead as follows
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
So are we a dead carcass rotting or are we the body of Christ
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Jesus offered His body but he also arose in that same body but it was now immortal.
The vultures or eagles word in the Greek makes reference to the ability of flight
G105 ah-et-os'
From the same as G109; an eagle (from its wind like flight): - eagle.
We will literally fly when we are raptured to Jesus after our bodies are Resurrected Immortal
and lastly the last word used is gathered together which in the greek means G4863 sunagō
From G4862 and G71; to lead together, that is, collect or convene; specifically to entertain (hospitably): - + accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

So what I read is that Jesus Himself will take us in an intimate way to Himself to His body and we will be flying there as eagles for the purpose of being bestowed, being entertained in an intimate way as in a Resort.

I will believe what the Greek so clearly states and not the destructive words of men, there is no mention of dead bodies that are rotting and no mention of bodies being taken for burning.
Only the so intimate words of Jesus speaking to us of His Great Desire for Intimacy and of Deliverance before Judgement as in the days of Noah.

It saddens me when you say what wikki says rather than what the word of God says, we must read and study what scriptures say to understand what God says rather than outside sources to tell us what God is saying, to many read all of the theories of men rather that the Word of God itself.
You are again asking me a question for me to answer and I will answer them in the words of Jesus Himself, Elijah has come and will also come before Christ comes again and appears the second time.
The Timeline of Jesus is this, He said to read the Book of Daniel so as to see when the Tribulation begins at the Abomination, Jesus said that the Tribulation begins when the Abomination of Desolation begins, this is of course in the middle of the 7 year Treaty, there remains only 1260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years in this Treaty period, many have fled into the wilderness of Judea and are protected for 3 1/2 years, the Holy city is being trampled for only 3 1/2 years, the Beast only has power for 3 1/2 years, the two witnesses only witness for 3 1/2 years
This 3 1/2 year period is a very strongly prophesied period and will be just that, 3 1/2 years, Jesus then states clearly that this period of Tribulation stops and there is more time after this, Jesus says that there will be signs in the heavens which are the exact same signs that are spoken of in Isaiah and Joel, and in Revelations, this period of time when the signs are seen is when the AntiChrist gathers the armies to Jerusalem the same as Joel, Isaiah and Revelations.
Where in scripture does it say that the 3 1/2 year Tribulation is the day of the Lord, I put it to you that you will not find it any where, but you will see that the day of the Lord takes place during those signs that Jesus spoke after the Tribulation
I will believe the Timeline of Jesus.

Hi Budgie
What does the bible say about the "the great tribulation"a time not ever seen before or since so that 75% may be very near the mark but world war 1 and 11 are a picnic compares to this time either way.
The trumpets seals and bowls are opened,blew and poured out by God that is a Judgement in any language.
When does the 3.5yr ministry of Elijah begin?Because immediately after that Jesus comes. we know that because thats whats prophesised.Also why would God pour out Judgement on an a people that Elijah has restored to their father!
Their is no gap for the earth to come back to normal.After the trib it would be devastation and in ruins.
If the sun is darkened and the moon doesnt give off its light how are the people of Noah and Lot passages marrying eating drinking buying and selling?How are the women milling and the men working in the field?Do they need light to grow to work to party!
Jesus said" Immediately after the distress of those days"
the sun would be darkend etc.Where is the chance for the earth to return to normal without the sun nothing grows and if its immediately after the trib.
In the Noah and Lot passages it is highlighted twice "until"indicating how sudden Judgement would come.Straightaway! but in the Joel passage it isnt straigthaway or sudden their are signs in the sky etc.It is obviously two different times.
In the examples Jesus gave after the "until" time has come their is no hope of stopping the judgement but in the Joel scripture their is hope for salvation.
Also did the previous tribulation not have any effect on them?In your timeline they have learned nothing from the tribulation?
Yours Staff

I do so much enjoy our discussions and find them serving a great purpose as it challenges us in what we believe and to also see if what we believe is actually true and based on scripture not just the ear tickling words of men.
I have always answered your questions with a biblical answer not just my own ideas.
I was gladdened when you were honest and said that you had not studied the trumpets and in that case probably a larger amount of what is in the Book of revelation, you in a sense stated that you had a theory but had never studied scripture in Revelation to see if that theory aligned with scripture, I do hope now that you will study the scriptures so that you will have a theory that the word of God says rather than what many teach.
Please do me this one favour and answer my questions with a yes or no and give scriptural support

Did Jesus say that He was coming after the Tribulation
Did Jesus say that He was Coming before the Tribulation
Is the rapture the resurrection or is it after the resurrection, what verse has the Harpazo word.
Does the rapture take place in the twinkling of an eye or does the Resurrection and bodies being changed happen in the twinkling of an eye
Did Paul say that the Harpazo (rapture) takes place last after the Resurrection of the dead
Did Paul say that there is an order to the Resurrection, Jesus first and afterward at His Coming all of those in Christ are raised.
Is Jesus the First Fruit or is He not the First Fruit
How many times does Jesus come as a thief to those on the earth
When God says in Rev 20 that this is the first Resurrection is this the First resurrection of Immortal or not
Did Jesus say that when we see the signs in the heavens we are to look up as our redemption draws near and is at the door
Is there the Resurrection of the Just and the resurrection of the unjust
Does the bride finally make herself ready at the time that Jesus comes to earth and does she finally get clothed at this time and the wedding finally take place at this time when the First Resurrection takes place
Is Jesus Coming or is He appearing when He comes

Please answer the above as I have at all times answered your questions with scripture and have clearly aligned myself with the words of Jesus.

Hi Budgie
This is the point
Where after the trib and the Joel Prophesy(which Jesus said is immediate) does the world have a chance to get back to partying ;working at a mill etc?
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This 3 1/2 year period is a very strongly prophesied period and will be just that, 3 1/2 years, Jesus then states clearly that this period of Tribulation stops and there is more time after this, Jesus says that there will be signs in the heavens which are th
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Wiki is correct in it explaination of "day of the Lord" as having a general meaning and a specific meaning and this view is commonly accepted.It comes from references from ff bruce and other reference books written by Christians
The day of the lord has many fulfillments not just the Joel passage.
We know that the first time Jesus came that that was "the day of the lord" and we know that Elijah comes before the "day of the lord" in the future.We know that it could have meaning like the sabbath day or it could also mean the day God Judges or gives blessing or both.In that since the tribulation can be viewed as the day of the lord or the rapture could be the day of he lord.
Elijah comes before Gods Judgement is what I am saying "the terrible day".
Yours Staff

It becomes very clear to me that you have not studied the Book of Revelations especially 4 to 20 and seen how they fit together.
Once again it is a middle east focused Book as is Daniel and Joel, they speak very specifically of the middle east area and not of America or Australia etc.
Cant find 75% anywhere in scripture
Jesus even says Himself that He is Coming as a Thief between the 6th and 7th bowl and He is speaking to His servants who God Himself gave the Book of Revelations to.
What Jesus states between the 6th and 7th seals, trumpets and bowls is profound.
Why cant Elijah come in the last 3 1/2 years while many who had obeyed Jesus fled to the Wilderness and those that didn't are still in Jerusalem, why cant he be one of the two witnesses.
Daniel himself stated that there are 75 days after the Tribulation ends
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

One most important thing that you are missing is this, in the day of Noah and of Lot Judgement came at the same time that Deliverance is taking place, so if you align with these pictures you have no choice but to agree that while the deliverance was happening God was judging as Joel and Isiah and Revelations states, the day God Delivers is the day that God begins to judge.
Rev 20, Joel 2-3
One picture is deliverance that happens quickly then judgement, Joel clarly shows the judgement as happening when the Lord Comes.
Lastly it is not my timeline it is Jesus
It says that it is the Kingdom of the Beast that is full of darkness and that they would still not repent
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Look at what Jesus says between the 6th and 7th bowl
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

All of Daniel is focused on the Middle east area and started with the Kingdom of Babylon, Revelations again focuses on Middle east and the City of Jerusalem and River Euphrates etc
How long would you live with no food fuel etc?
The truth is this that life cannot physically go on for 3 1/2 years unless people are working, if no one works there will be no food, no water, no fuel, no shops, no doctors, no police, no hospitals, no ambulance, no fire brigades etc, there has to be a normality of life otherwise we would not exist more than a month.
The Bible even speaks clearly that there is trade at that time and many are made wealthy.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
So there is normality of some sort at this time for trade to be happening and for there to be wealthy and for ships to be at sea.
Without no one working there is no refineries to produce fuel etc.
Bible is very middle eastern focused.
When Moses was in Egypt the plagues etc were against the Pharoah and his people, Revelations Joel Isaiah etc speak very clearly of the middle east.
How will armies gather together unless they have people to work to produce food, water, fuel ammo etc
Yes there is some normality.
Is the Daniel Kingdoms the Islamic Kingdom that is arising now I don't know but it sure looks that way, remember the spirit of the Antichrist is the one that denies the Father and the Son, Islam does just that, it is Blasphemy to say that God is a Father and has a Son, certainly looks antichrist spirit and is certainly happening in the Kingdom area where Daniel speaks.

Hi Budgie
Where is the time between the trib and the immediate sun darkening and signs in the sky for middle east to come back to the time where they are eating and drinking and making merry?What effect does the trib have on these people.(they can be only from the middle east)
You could equally say that if the Church is raptured and then the trib you have deliverance and judgement taking place.
The Joel Judgement is not immediate "until" nor is directly after Elijah has left the scene.
Also if Elijah comes in the great tribulation How does his powers have any effect with the whole Middle East(in your opinion not mine I think its world wide) is in turmoil.?
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
You cant have it both ways either the Tribulation is the worst time the world has ever seen or it isnt.
Jesus Highligted the normality not me.It was normal until Judgement.When the righteous were taken then Judgement came.
Great if the tribulaton was a holiday camp where their was food and marrying and party but its a time of starvation,scavaging for food war pestilence and desease.
Armies steal to feed themselves as always leaving nothing for the populations.The time of Noah and Lot is a happy prosperous time clearly not a time during or after the GREAT tribulaton.During the tribulation their is no buying and selling after all.
It depends on when you think armegeddon is.
The world rejoices when the the witnesses are killed.The ministry effects the whole world it isnt a local thing.
Then in your logic if its localized then when the sun is darkened etc thats local as well and his coming back is local as well.You cant have it both ways can you?
Also the preaching of Noah comes before Judgement when does the world get its final warning?
yours Staff

I am not sure staff member why you struggle with the words of Jesus, if Jesus states that the Tribulation has ended why cant the Tribulation be ended, that certainly means that there is no longer any Tribulation.
Daniel states very clearly that there is another 75 days after the Tribulation ends, that is 2 1/2 months.
If people are still trading at the end of the Tribulation and making money and all of the produce is still being made and sold then there has to be some normality in a sense to be able to do these things, remember that this is all taking place during the Tribulation, Jesus is very specific that the Tribulation is in Jerusalem and surrounding towns.
I did not say that there would not be suffering in the rest of the world, I was merely pointing out the fact that the Prophecies are very middle eastern focused, where is the Antichrist based at, the Middle East, where is the battle , the middle east.
Many say Rapture but have never studied the truth of this doctrine, if you are not in the Resurrection you will not be raptured, the rapture means to be seized it does not mean to be resurrected.
You have clearly not done a scriptural biblical study on the word rapture and its timing in 1 Thess 4, otherwise you would know that it is after the Resurrection and after Jesus Comes with a shout.
Why not study scripture where Jesus Comes and where He comes with a shout and the resurrection and the order of the Resurrection and the Trumpet and especially the last Trumpet.
As Paul so clearly states the rapture takes place after the Resurrection and Paul states that there is an order to this Resurrection, it happens when Jesus Comes.
Again no where do you find Jesus saying that He is Coming before the Tribulation.

Why cant you just believe the words of Jesus, His own words were He is Coming after the Tribulation.
Jesus does not gather His Chosen to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and earth until He Comes after the signs in the Heavens.
Paul himself even stated that Jesus will not be coming and we will not be gathered to Him until the Apostasy and until the Son of Perdition is revealed and even says that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist when He Comes to gather us to Himself
Tell me where in the Gospels is Jesus Coming?
Where in Revelations does Jesus come and where does the First Resurrection take place.
You seem to be so caught up with Elijah that you ignore the words of Jesus, if you say now that you have never studied the timing of the 2 witnesses in Revelations but you have your mind made up how can you be focused on Elijah but not know scripturally in Revelations where He comes.
Jesus fulfilled the first 4 feasts perfectly in the one same year when He came and appeared the First Time so the chances are He will do exactly the same when He appears the second time.
It is not coincidence that the start of the Feast of Trumpets is also known as the day or the hour no man knows as it is the only feast that begins on the first day of the Hebrew month, they wait for the first slither of light then blow the last trumpet and give a great shout.
Why cant Elijah be in the Last 3 1/2 years before Christ Comes to deliver and bring judgement as Joel and Revelations so clearly shows.
I believe God when He says that this is the First Immortal resurrection, it is when Jesus Comes and it is when His Bride has finally made herself ready and has finally been clothed and the wedding is come.

Once again I am not having it both ways, I am presenting exactly what the Word of God says, most of the prophecies are middle eastern focused, look in Revelation and see the Trade that is happening between countries especially the Middle East, it even says that many are made wealthy during this time, it is not being stolen it is being sold,it even details exactly what is being produced, transported and sold, very expensive items, I certainly did not say that it was a holiday camp, that is your words, I stated exactly what Revelations says, I even gave the verses.
How can armies steal if you say the people don't have these things.
If you study for yourself in Revelations and Joel you will see exactly where the battle of Armageddon takes place and who is in charge, it certainly names the area of Jerusalem
Again if Jesus states that the Tribulation is over then the Tribulation is over.
Again I did not say that it was all local I merely presented scripture that shows that it is the Kingdom of the Beast that is darkened and Daniel so clearly shows that this Kingdom area is in the middle east. Joel also describes the exact location.
I never said once that the Tribulation is not the worst time that has existed, I merely presented scripture that speaks of where these certain events are happening especially the middle east.
It does not say any where in scripture that there is no buying or selling during the Tribulation, what it does say is that many are made rich selling to the middle east and it states that the kingdom where the Beats reigns can only buy and sell if they have the mark of the beast.
This Beats reigns in the Middle east not in Australia.
The two witnesses give the final warning in the last 3 1/2 years just before the Coming of Christ.
I certainly did not say that all events are local, I merely presented all scriptural evidence that shows the location of the events taking place, especially the middle east.
The two witnesses are dead in the streets of Jerusalem, the battle is at Jerusalem, the beast kingdom in Daniel is certainly in the middle east, pure scripture

Please Please answer some of my questions that I have specifically asked you earlier, I have constantly answered yours with scripture.

Hello staff member, I have most certainly enjoyed our discussion and am learning as we progress, it has become clear to me that you are strongly focused on the whole Elijah issue to which you cannot provide any clear scriptural verses for but can provide analogies, it has also become clear to me that you have not yet studied in depth the book of Revelations and the seals trumpets and bowls, this is probably mainly due to you being taught PreTribulation, this is something that I have noticed is quite common, strong theory but lacking in scriptural study and support, one can go on forever about Elijah but the main point is that his name is not mentioned once in the book of Revelations.
All we have in the NT is what is written in the other books

Mat_17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat_17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat_17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat_17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Luk_4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

I do believe Elijah will come again and I do believe that He will come again at the time in Israel when great famine is throughout the land, the same as the first time and I do believe that He will herald the Coming of Christ and the First Immortal Resurrection when He comes to trample the winepress of the wrath of God the same as in Joel where it says that He tramples the winepress at the battle against the Antichrist.

The Truth is this John physically came on earth in the spirit of Elijah to herald the coming of Jesus the first time and Elijah will again come and herald the Coming of Jesus where He will appear the second time.

Jesus only appeared once on earth where he was physically visible to all men, this was after John came in the spirit of Elijah.

If Jesus is to appear a second time then would it not be the same again, Elijah physically on earth heralding the second appearance of Christ the Messiah physically to earth where he again appears to all mankind.

If you say that this happens in the first 3 1/2 years that means that Christ will appear physically on earth at the middle of the 7 years which is the beginning of the Tribulation, literally you are saying that Christ will physically come and will physically appear to all men on earth as He did the first time He appeared on earth.

Jesus stated very clearly that He will not be Coming until after the Tribulation and after the signs in the heavens.

Please answer me this one question with scripture only.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is what God is saying the Truth?
Is it the First Immortal Resurrection as God says or is it not?
As we have already discussed the rapture is the action of being seized that takes place after the Resurrection.

Hi Budgie
I have enjoyed talking to you as well and blessings to you brother.
When it comes to Prophesy in the mind of an old testament Jew it is very different than the way we would understand things.Jesus used analogy when he talked about Noah and Lot!
They see prophesy sometimes having multiple fulfillments and an ultimate fulfillment.If you dont look at the Elijah cycle the way the Jewish mind does then you cannot find what his role is.I have provided scripture to show that Elijah is coming clearly.To show what he is going to do then we have to look at what he did as John and how John was fulfilling prophesy(not just analogies but hard scripture)
After all the two witnesses are just an analogy.You only know that they have something to do with Elijah because of an analogy! between what Elijah did and what they will do.
It is scriptural though.
I have tried to bring a missing angle that is a mystery to many to the debate which cant be done looking at Revelation.
Many good scholars have so many varying ideas to the timing of happenings in Revelation but the Elijah Cycle is very easy to understand and easily timed.It makes sense that if the only person that is mentioned in regards to 1260 etc is Elijah that their is a mystery below the surface that the Holy Spirit wants to reveal.
I consider the timing as such
First 3.5YRS Jezebel/Elijah do battle with AntiChrist in attendance.Elijah Preaches that Jesus is coming again to take the righteous and in doing so causes world wide revival turning hearts back to God and importantly giving the world a last chance.
Middle of 7yrs
Elijah is killed,The world rejoices that Christ isnt coming but then in the midst of the celebration Jesus comes and seizes his people.At this time another analogy happens in the form of the Noah and Lot analogies and the woman at the mill analogy.
Last 3.5 begin immediately with the AntiChrist takes control
God pours out his Judgement on the world as a series of Judgements with the righteous out of harms way.
The disciples asked
when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
It looks to me that these two things are different with a gap between them.
----------------------------------------------------------
This Scripture fits in with Elijah coming and Preaching in the first half of the 7yrs.The end of the age being the Rapture.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Yours Staff

Thanks staff for your explanation, it sounds good but the timing of the 2 witnesses just does not fit in the first 3 1/2 years in scripture
As I said before you have already made up there timing but have not taken into account of their placement in Revelations, they are clearly in the last half as they are between the 6th and 7th Trumpet , you are stating that the timeframe between the 6th and 7th Trumpet has to be 3 1/2 years and that all of the Tribulation and all of the Antichrist period fits into this 6th and 7th timing.
It just does not fit
The battle of Armageddon clearly takes place at the 7th trumpet and Jesus tramples His wrath at this time.
Scripture clearly shows that the Holy City is being trampled by the Gentiles at the same time the 2 witnesses are causing plagues etc, the same time as the Beast and False Prophet
The two witnesses are standing before the god of earth not before the God Of Heaven
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the god of the earth.
Satan and the Beast think and convince others that they are the god of the earth
this is the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Paul stated clearly that this person must be revealed before Jesus comes and gathers us to himself and Jesus destroys this beast when He comes to gather us.

Look at your timing and make sure it fits scripturally

Hi Budgie
What happens(bad things) after the two witnesses are taken to heaven?In your timeline I am unclear of this
Thanks Staff

not sure what you mean by bad things, the 2 witnesses certainly bring much torment to those around Jerusalem and surrounding areas on the earth,I believe in the timeline that Revelations shows in regards to the 2 witnesses which is as follows

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The above certainly looks like the events that are spoken of throughout Revelations

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

It is amazing how quickly people can start celebrating after 3 1/2 years of torment, they even buy gifts and send them to others

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is very clear that the 7th Trumpet is next after the 2 witnesses arise

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The above certainly looks like other areas in Revelations where Christ comes for the battle of Armageddon and tramples His wrath, it is interesting that God is rewarding His servants, saints and prophets just before His wrath on earth is about to come
Looks just like Noah and Lot, Noah and Lot literally saw the Judgement of God at the time of their deliverance

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Hi Budgie
Sorry what I mean is after the two witnesses rise but before the sun is darkened.
What happens bowls trumpets etc?
Thanks Staff

now I know what you are saying.
I can only answer this with what is shown in scripture
Firstly I must say that every prophetic books follow the similar pattern by God, they tend to overlap and be expanded upon as God describes the same event in a deeper way and from a different angle and He appears to expand a lot more on the final events.
A good example of this is all of the visions and interpretations in Daniel they show a different picture but speaking about the similar events.
You can overlap or overlay Daniel and get an amazing picture of that last period of time of the Antichrist and the Coming of Christ to earth to establish His Kingdom.
From the studies I have done in Revelations it follows the same pattern you will find some profound things that God is doing and is happening between the 6th and 7th seals trumpets and bowls, Jesus even states he is coming as a thief between the 6th and 7th bowl and He wants us to be clothed in Him

Hi Budgie
I think that doesnt answer my question in a way I understand,Does anything happen after the 2 witnesses rise?
Yours Staff

As to your question of what happens between the 2 witnesses rising and the sun being darkened scripture is not clear as to specifically days or months, all we know is that the Tribulation has ended, the Beast has no longer any power granted by God, he uses demons to gather the armies.
Daniel is very specific about a 75 day period.

We know in Joel that the signs are in the Heavens when they gather at Jehoshafat,
We also read the same image in Revelations at the 6th seal also near the time where the armies are gathering to Jerusalem
we also see the link with the Euphrates river and the armies in the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl

Rev_9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Rev_16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

But as to how many days exactly between the end of the Tribulation and the signs in the skies we are not told, we are only told the order of the events.

Joel and Isaiah are certainly an interesting read and certainly presents some period of days between the end of the Trib and the armies gathering around Jerusalem

It takes time for armies to gather, to march and to assemble, certainly more than a few days

We know that there is at least 3 1/2 days after the Tribulation and after the 2 witnesses are killed because people are celebrating and sending gifts to one another and this is just before the 7th Trumpet and just before the armies gather around Jerusalem.

I hope this answers your question in a scriptural manner, not my thoughts but scripture speaking

All I can suggest to do is to do as I am at present, I have a large A1 page and am compiling all of the events in Joel, Isaiah and Revelations that are around that period of time where the armies are starting to cross the Euphrates and are heading to Jerusalem for the battle and valley of decision where God judges

I am surprised at how much there is but again no exact amount of days

What we are told is that God puts into the hearts of the 10 kings to destroy the city that has ridden on the back of the beast and has profited in a massive way, this happens at the time when they are heading to Jerusalem and just before the Wrath of God.

It is very much like Mecca and Meddina today profiting on the back of Islam IS, all other countries are in a Mess but Mecca and Medina are prospering and have a peace, even the Koran has a prophecy that the Mahdi destroys Mecca on the way to Jerusalem for the battle very much like the 10 kings that destroy the great city in the desert by the seas

Hi Budgie
Jesus says when you see the abomination of desolation flee to the hills.The abomination is in the middle of the 70th week.Why do the two witnesses not obey Jesus as they stay in Jerusalem?
The antichrist had complete dominion in the 2nd part of the week but how could this be if the two witnesses are on earth for they had powers that would compromise the antichrist rule.
If the people who dwell on the earth mourn the colapse of Babylon at the end of the 2nd half how do they celebrate the death of the witnesses if thats also at the end of the 2nd 1260 days?Are they mourning or celebrating?
Elijah called down fire from heaven and laughed at the prophets of Baal.How can he succeed if the False Prophet is calling down fire at the same time?
It makes sense to me that the witnesses preach during peace time and have the full playing field to themselves.It also marrys up well with Noah and Lot both were times of peace with normal life going on.
your staff

Jesus was speaking to people as individuals as well as a whole in Jerusalem, yes they do flee in the middle of the 7 years as Jesus said, we are not told who these 2 witnesses are, are they literally Elijah or Moses or someone else we do not know, but whoever they are they both know the mission that God has for them and it has been prophecied that they will be there and be killed between the 6th and 7th Trumpet just prior to the 7th trumpet and the gathering of armies to Jerusalem.
If God commanded you to do something would you do it
No they don't compromise the rule of the Antichrist, they are doing the exact same thing that Moses and Aaron did with Pharoah and the magicians.
The 2 witnesses torment the unbelievers while the Beast and the unbelievers torment the believers, this is why the unbelievers hate the 2 witnesses so much
Again the death of the 2 witnesses takes place just prior to the destruction of the whore city
Look at what it says in Revelations

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They were rejoicing at the time of death for 3 1/2 days only then the 2 witnesses arose then there was a small amount of judgement in Jerusalem

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

There are a remnant in Jerusalem that gave Glory to God

sometime after this is when the nations get angry for the wrath of God is come

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The battle is between the God of heaven and the God of earth, this battle can go on the same as moses and Pharoah

look at what the 2 witnesses do

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

sounds powerful to me, the beast cannot overcome them until Gods appointed time.

You are still trying to make sense but ignoring the fact of where scripture has so clearly placed the 2 witnesses between 6th and 7th Trumpet.

Stop trying to fit things into your theory and allow yourself to align with Gods prophecy.

Lot and Noah both saw the Judgement of God come on the earth when they were delivered.
Noah and lot were not delivered and then 7 years later came the judgement

They were delivered and judgement came all around the same time, lots wife looked back as they were delivered and she was judged

First Deliverance then Judgement all at the same period of time

How can you say that there is a peace time if the 2 witnesses are doing the following

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

does not sound peaceful

Remember that they are ministrying at the same time that the gentiles are trampling the Holy City and it is clearly between the 6th and 7th trumpet when they die

Hi Budgie
Firstly they are using the powers in a time of relative peace like we have today.The witnesses powers are highlighted because they are using them in a time of relative peace.
Also more importantly we know by the scripture itself that the powers are not actual but could be if needed.
These Powers are how Elijah brings the people of God back in line or "make ready the way of the Lord"
For instance Fire doesnt literally come out of their mouth but fire comes out of their mouth in the sense that the word of God comes out of their mouth.It isnt actual Rain it is the out poured Spirit.It isnt actual blood it is just highlighting one of the powers of Elijah had.
So it has to be a time of Peace for these powers to stand out
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
Noah and Lot were not saved and then the Judgement came at the same time.The Judgement came immediately after they were saved "until" thats important.
You are ignoring that Noah and Lot were in peace time (not tribulation) and they were the examples given by Jesus
You are ignoring the other point that the Judgement was immediate not 75 days later.
Also in both Noah and Lot Noah rose up when on the Ark and Lot went up out of the Valley then the Judgement immdediately came.Their was a going up and then Judgement,
You are stuck on the 6th and 7th Trumpet timing I believe.
Yours Staff

Hello staff
The scripture clearly states that the gentiles are trampling the holy city at the same time the 2 witnesses are given power, not peaceful at all, in Jerusalem today there is certainly not peace like in the rest of the world, the battle is on for Gods land and Gods city, so what you are saying is that Elijah never really stopped the rain.
I am happy to accept what God said, if He said Elijah stopped the rain then I am also happy to believe the 2 witnesses stop the rain.
If God said if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
If God said These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Did Moses do all that the Bible said against Egypt or was it all just dreams.

If God Himself said that there will be plagues and waters turned to blood then who am I to argue, I did not write the Book God declared it, I must not argue with God, all I know is this, whatever comes out of the mouths of the 2 witnesses it has power to destroy and kill.

I will believe what God says and not try and take away what He says.

I probably used the wrong word at the same time, what I mean by this is as follows.
Noah and family went into the Ark, the door was closed, they were still on the earth and still in the ark, at that time while they were in the ark and on the earth Judgement began to come, the rains came down and the waters arose, the Boat never lifted until the waters arose and even then they were on the waters while the Judgement was made, for this reason I said the same time, yes there is a very small gap of time between entering the ark and the rain coming.
It was the same for Lot, they left the town and while they were leaving they saw the judgement come.
I did not ignore the point that the Judgement was immediate, I even stated that it was at that same time.
I am not stuck on the 6th and 7th Trumpet, as I totally agree with the timing of the 2 witnesses as being in that exact place at that exact time Just prior to Jesus Coming and trampling His Wrath.
You have not yet replied that all of the Tribulation period and Antichrist period fit only between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
It just does not fit.
How can you make all of the 3 1/2 years of trib and antichrist only fit into the 6th and 7th Trumpet.

I did not say that Judgement was 75 days later, I firmly believe that when Jesus Comes He will deliver us and then bring Judgement The WinePress of the Wrath of God at that time, not 3 1/2 years later, not 7 years later, not 75 days later but as Noah and Lot.

Hi Budgie,
Hope you are well.
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.
God's word(fire)Rain(outpouring)Blood(Ending false prophets in the church)Plagues(afflictions)
The two witnesses will destroy and kill with the word of God,they need nothing else
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie

Scenario :two witnesses ministry and the Antichrist are given power for the same 1260days(the last half of the tribulation)

Antichrist
"There was given him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.” (Revelation 13:5
Two witnesses
"When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.” (Revelation 11:7

The two witnesses are killed after 1260 days lets say for instance on day 1261, the Antichrist authority to act is gone at that point and the tribulation is over.
Also for argument lets say that the world is celebrating from day 1261 to 1264 the death of the witnesses why are they not worried about the sun darkening etc

Immediately after the distress of those days‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie'
I'm not signing off yet on the subject but i want to thank you for your thoughtful and detailed responses .It is good to breakdown the word in these last days.I understand that their are good scholars godly christians on all sides of the debate.
Sermonindex is and excellent forum for such discussions and for edification.I believe the closer the day the more scripture will be revealed to edify the church.
Many say what a useless discussion it doesnt save anyone but they wont be saying that when times get tough and are looking for answers.What they dont realize is the message that gets most people into the kingdom is "Jesus is coming again and he is coming very soon"
Have a good day and chat soon
Yours Staff

I have not seen you use scripture to interpret your theory, you have not answered any of my questions and continue with your view without aligning yourself with scripture, you continue to place the 2 witnesses in the first half of the 7 years, which scripturally is impossible.
You said that they arise from the dead before the Tribulation period and this is in between the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
That means by what you are saying that all of the 3 1/2 year tribulation must fit into the period of the 6th and 7th Trumpet.
If what you are saying is true then everything from the seals 1 to 6 and also Trumpets 1 to 6 is before the Tribulation as you said Clearly that they die before the Tribulation period.
LOOK at what happens in the Trumpets alone before the 6th Trumpet
And Remember you said that this was a time of peace
First trumpet and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Second Trumpet and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Third Trumpet, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Fourth Trumpet and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Fifth Trumpet and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Remember you said that the Tribulation comes after their death.
Your Theory is not supported by theory
Just tickles the ear.

Staff member you said
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.

I can only reply with this, did Moses really do all of the plagues in Egypt was it literal or was it all just spiritual, God Himself stated the words in revelation and if He said what the 2 witnesses did I will believe and I will not dare take away from what He said, I don't understand all that is spoken but I certainly will not try and belittle or twist what God has said, the use of the greek words is very literal,and used in that context in many other places to mean what it says
As to the Fire that comes out of their mouths God has not yet revealed, but it does reveal that these 2 have power by God to kill.

Revelations is full of literal and symbolic .

Staff You said
The Powers are not literal have you ever seen fire coming out of a mans mouth?The powers are to bring the church back in line.
God's word(fire)Rain(outpouring)Blood(Ending false prophets in the church)Plagues(afflictions)
The two witnesses will destroy and kill with the word of God,they need nothing else

So if we use your interpretation then all of these other events in Revelations are not literal either

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and (fire) came down from God out of heaven, and (devoured) them.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be (killed).
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the (sea became blood);
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these (plagues): and they repented not to give him glory.

Interpret Scripture with scripture not ideas

Hi Budgie
My intrepretation is very scriptural and I am intrepreting scripture with Scripture.Except you are intrepreting with a western mind and I am intrepreting along Jewish lines of Prophetic pattern and multiple fullfilment.
What I am saying is that the powers of the two witnesses are clearly not literal.Has any man ever had fire coming out of their mouth? other than the word of God.Thats why that was first on the list to show that very fact.
These are not literal because it is a mystery put in and can be only understood correctly by a jewish intrepretation.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie,
Sometimes its literal and sometimes its not thats the simple answer.
For instance the two witnesses are not literal "lampstands" but that term describes them perfectly.
I am understanding their powers in respect to what their ministry is.
Of course the plagues are real in the time of Moses as this was just History writing tell it as it was but the future is sometimes allegorical.For instance we know from Daniel that when he describes the powers that were to come werent literal a goat etc but was descriptive allegory.
Your Staff

Hi Budgie'
By trying to time with the trumpets,seals and bowls is very difficult and all three or four trib views line them up differently with very convincing arguements that have been laid out by some godly people on all sides.
If the two witnesses and the antichrist both start at the beginning of the 2nd 3.5yrs of the tribulation and end the same day then the authority of the Antichrist has elapsed by the time the two witnesses are over come.
Also immediately the sun and moon will be darkened,the people are amazingly optimistic considering these things are happening.
If you havent seen my scripture to intrepret not a theory but an obvious theme in the bible then you have blanked them out.I have shown by scripture that Elijah came,hes coming again,his role when he comes again.The reason again I have shown by scripture that I go for a rapture before the second half is that in the Noah and Lot analogy it is in relative peace,judgement is immediate and think its scripturally impossible that the two witnesses minister in the second period for earlier reasons mentioned.

Another thing to think about is this.If the second half of the tribulation is 3.5 yrs exactly and the two witnesses minister exactly 1260 days the second part of the week then why is their still judgement just after their ressurection when the tribulation is over "and that very hour a severe earthquake etc"?
Yours Staff

All have an answer. Live right and wait and see....

I'm sure those believers in Mosul and in Egypt are pretty sure they are seeing great tribulation. No need to grasp over straws. Have Faith. We're called to be sheep for the slaughter.

Hi Rogerb
If the believers in Mosul and Eygpt have a basic knowledge of the end times which im sure they have the would understand the difference between tribulation and the great tribulaion.My faith is in our blessed hope
Yours Staff

I have to disagree with you at this present time, you have only used theory at this present time and have not once used scripture to support your theories.
You stated that the Tribulation takes place after the 2 witnesses arise but you have no scriptural proof, I say to you using scripture that the first 5 trumpets take place before they die as scripture so clearly states, 5 trumpets certainly do not speak of peace yet you say that it is a time of peace before they die.
You say that Jesus comes before the Tribulation but Jesus Himself states that He is Coming after the Tribulation, show me a verse.
You say that the First Resurrection is not the First Resurrection, show me a scripture
You say that the Rapture is this wonderful secret resurrection that takes place prior to the First Resurrection.
Show me scripture where the rapture takes place before the Resurrection
Do a study in 1 Thess 4 and study what must happen before the seizing that takes place.
the rapture does not take place prior to the resurrection, it is the other way around Resurrection is first.
It is clear that you have not done a scriptural study on each of the events in 1 Thess 4 that must happen before the seizing.
You say you are using a Jewish mindset yet you ignore scripture, I have aligned myself with the scripture certainly not with Western tickle the ears teaching .
The whole rapture teaching started in the west not in scripture.
You wont find anywhere in scripture a doctrine that states that the rapture takes place before the resurrection.
I believe I have been grafted into the commonwealth of Israel as Romans says and I must not boast as I am merely a branch, I will receive the blessings and promises and will believe that Jesus is Coming back for the Commonwealth of Israel that I have been grafted into.
No where does it say that He is coming back for only the Gentiles.
We are one body in Christ.

Here is an example
I believe totally that the First Resurrection in Rev 20 is the First resurrection, not part of, not phases, God is true it is the First Resurrection and it takes place at the Coming Of Christ.
I do believe that when Jesus said that He was the First to arise in the Immortal body and that He is the First of Fruits and that when He comes all of the Fruit (crop) will arise then this is true.
God is the planter of one crop and Jesus was the First to arise of that crop and when Jesus come that whole one crop will arise, this is the First Resurrection in History of all in Christ being raised immortal.
It happens in Rev 20 not in Rev 4 as some try and say.
Jesus states that He is coming after the Tribulation.

Hi Budgie
You can get out of answering the difficult questions by calling it theory if you want.I have shown you scripture that the two witnesses could not be part of the 2nd 3'5yrs and if they are not part of the 2nd part they then are part of the first.Its one or the other!
Again if the 42 months of the antichrist is the same as the 42 months of the two witnesses the antichrists authority is gone by the time they are killed and also if the 42 months of the 2nd part of the week end the same time the two witnesses are finished their ministry why is this happening

"The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon."

just after the rapture of the two witnesses when in fact the Great tribulation is over!

Again on the trumpet issue I think its very hard to use that as an accurate timing mechanism on its own and has been debated for ever by theologians on all sides.
As you know their is no verse to say that the rapture is
after the tribulation either.
As to the first resurection debate: The two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12) which in your theory could not happen.
I never said he is coming back only for gentiles,we are one body in Christ.
Yours Staff

Hello staff member thanks for your reply
I looked back at all the posts that you have done on the timing of the 2 witnesses and I cannot see any that you have provided that states that they are before the Tribulation, no scriptural evidence only theories.
Revelations clearly shows the Trumpets to be in succession.

This is what is written in Timothy

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That being the case if scripture clearly shows the first 5 Trumpets as happening before the 2 witnesses are killed and then raised again then that is the Truth, I will not argue with scripture.

Doctrine is to come from scriptures not from fleshly thoughts and ideas.
You can think against what God has said in the Trumpets but I will believe in the sequence of the Trumpets as God has said.
Paul stated very clearly that the rapture is the last in the sequence of events in 1 Thess 4:15 -18, I will believe what Paul has stated and that is that the rapture or seizing happens after the Resurrection of the dead.
God said that the First resurrection is at the Coming of Christ in Rev 20, I will not argue with God and say that it is not.
God is true to His word.
1 Cor 15 states clearly that Jesus was the first and only man to be raised in the Immortal body and that the whole crop in Christ will be raised at His Coming.
is Paul a liar, I say no Paul was saying the Truth, Jesus is the First of the Crop and we will be raised Immortal at His Coming.
1 Thess 4 states 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The above verses align with 1 Cor 15 and also Rev 20.
All those that have died are resting in Jesus and when He comes He will bring them with Him and raise their bodies immortal.

There have been thousands of dead people raised from the dead before Jesus died and after the day of Pentecost, yet scripture does not say that any of them were raised in their immortal bodies, if they did then Paul and God would have not been telling the Truth.

Did Lazarus arise in an Immortal body when Jesus raised his rotting dead stinking body from the dead? no he did not.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This whole Resurrection focus is on the Immortal body, not just being raised from the dead to die again.

There is an Order, Jesus and only Jesus first and then all in Christ at His Coming.

Let scripture be your Doctrine not the imaginations of men that nullify the word of God.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they (the armies that came from Heaven)sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

It includes the Armies of heaven and those that were in the Tribulation as being in that First Resurrection.

Remember the resurrection happens in the twinkling of an eye not over many years or phases as some would dare say.

Remember Jesus brings with Him those that rest in Him and their bodies are raised Immortal on that day.

God said it is the First Resurrection, it is an important Resurrection like no other, it is a Resurrection of Immortality never to die again, a body like Jesus.

He is Coming back for one body made up of Jew and Gentile, one pure Olive Tree.

You stated the following
As you know their is no verse to say that the rapture is
after the tribulation either.
That quote by you is not true as we know clearly that the Rapture is the last thing that takes place after the resurrection of the Dead as spoken in 1 Thess and we know in scripture precisely where the First resurrection takes place and that is in rev 20 at the Coming of Christ.
We also know in scripture that the resurrection takes place after the Trumpet of God sounds and we know in scripture where that happens.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And we know that the Resurrection takes place after the Coming of Christ and we know in scripture where Jesus states He is Coming
Immediately after the tribulation shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And we know that it is the last trumpet sounds, not the first, not the second but the last
1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Could not be any clearer in scripture.

Why don't you have a realistic and truthful study in scripture especially what the scripture states clearly must happen before the rapture.
Study all of the events in 1 Thess 4;13 to 18
The rapture is the last event after all.
Is Jesus the only man that has been raised in the Immortal body as scripture clearly states?
Or is Paul a liar?
Paul states that all in Christ will be raised immortal at His Coming, one singular event in the History of mankind as Rev 20 states by God Himself.

Hi Budgie
If you dont want to answer these questions that your choice and I respect that but perhaps other posters might know the answer...
A .If the two witnesses minister in the 42 months of the 2nd half of the 7yrs and the Antichrist has Authority for the same 42months.How does he kill them when his Authority is lapsed.?
B.If the two witnesses and the 2nd half of the tribulation are the same time why do we have Judgements happening after the tribulation is supposedly over ?
c.How can the world be rejoicing and partying when immediately after the tribulation the sun is not shining and the moon darkened?
As you know in regard the resurrection arguement is a well trodden arguement that pre tribbers and post tribbers have discussed endlessly.The only thing I can add is the When the two witnesses are raptured what resurrection are they part off?
I look at this rapture subject from this approach.What does Elijah do when he comes?What is his role and how do we find this out?Why is he associated with the time of 42months?
The subjects of timing of trumpets etc and the ressurection debate usually bring nothing new to the table in understanding the rapture.Im not saying they are not important but they have been debated to a standstill.
The important thing about the timing of the rapture in my view is the effect it has on our views on other things "extreme persecution gospel"for the post tribulation and "easy time Gospel" for the pre tribulation view.
Yours Staff

Budgie, my brother
I think that you are approaching your "doctrine of the resurection" from the wrong view. You are a little like Martha, who when told by Jesus
"Your brother shall rise again" John 11 v23
Reply with all your knowlege of scripture
" Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. v24

But Jesus wanted her to know and believe the truth:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

For us, who beleive, the Resurrection is not a doctrine to be wrested from scripture; but is a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus' reply in the above two verses, firstly prevent our understanding of resurection without this faith that He is the Resurection, and secondly, it details the final rising of the saints who sleep in Him, and the rapture of those who remain ( as 1 Thess details).
Verse 5 is also the key to it all, as these are people whom Jesus loved

Just my thoughts

David

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.
I would love to answer your questions.
A .If the two witnesses minister in the 42 months of the 2nd half of the 7yrs and the Antichrist has Authority for the same 42months.How does he kill them when his Authority is lapsed.?

My answer.
First I must remind you Staff that the first 6 trumpets have taken place before they are killed and raised from the dead. You staff member yourself stated that the Tribulation starts after they are raised, so by your own words the first 6 trumpets are all events that happen before the Tribulation, You are stating very clearly that the first six trumpets happen before the Tribulation and that certainly does not fit very well.
The answer to your question is really very simple, the Beast has the authority to kill the 2 witnesses at the end of his reign of power and at the same time as the 2 witnesses have finished their ministry, at that very moment that God himself has prophesied, the 2 witnesses are killed and God himself has prophesied that it happens just before the 7th and last Trumpet when Jesus Comes to trample the winepress of God.

The 2 witnesses are killed and arise just before the next verses.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

No mention of a 3 1/2 year period between the 6th and 7th trumpet.

God is very specific as to what happens after the 2 witnesses are raised.

Jesus comes to reward His servants and Trample the winepress of the wrath of God, this is so clearly described in Rev 19 and 20.

The Bride is not made ready and not clothed and the wedding does not take place until after the Whore city is destroyed by the 10 kings just before Christ Comes and the First Resurrection takes place.

Now I will answer your second question.
B.If the two witnesses and the 2nd half of the tribulation are the same time why do we have Judgements happening after the tribulation is supposedly over ?

Not sure what Judgements you are referring to as God Himself stated very clearly that the 7th Trumpet sounds soon after the 2 witnesses are raised and what happens after the 2 witnesses arise is that the Kingdoms become Christs and He comes to Reward His servants, Jesus Himself tramples the winepress of the Wrath of God which again is so clearly described in rev 19 and 20 when Jesus Comes and defeats the Antichrist and seizes satan for 1000 years.
This is at the Time of the first resurrection, those in the resurrection are the army of heaven and included with them are those from the Tribulation.

Again when one does a deep study on the seal, trumpet and bowl, one can see that the 6th and 7th seal, trumpet and bowl overlap and speak of the time of Christ coming.

It is completely impossible for them to be Chronological.

Now I will answer your 3rd question.
c.How can the world be rejoicing and partying when immediately after the tribulation the sun is not shining and the moon darkened?

It is very clear that you have not studied all that Jesus says regarding the time after the Tribulation, you are only looking at Matthew 24.
Jesus stated clearly in Matthew the following.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus was referring to this as a sequential event that would happen next after the Tribulation has been finished, but Jesus stated more on this in Mark.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus very clearly stated that there are days that exist after the Tribulation has finished, BUT Jesus said clearly in those days, this is Plural, we don't know how many days, BUT Jesus said in those days the Signs will appear in the Heavens.

Is it 5 days? Is it 10 Days? is it 25 Days?

We are not told BUT Jesus said that it will happen and when it does we are to look up for our Redemption draws near and is at the door.

Jesus also said
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Jesus Himself even stated this about that Day of His Coming after these signs.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

It is important to keep scripture in harmony, it is very clear in Mark the sequence of events and this all aligns with Matthew and Luke and Revelations.

Now I will answer your remaining questions
STAFF you said this
The only thing I can add is the When the two witnesses are raptured what resurrection are they part off?
God is very clear as to when the First Resurrection takes place and who is in that First Resurrection in rev19 and 20.

Paul also is very clear that no man but Christ has ever been raised in the history of mankind in an immortal body that Jesus was raised in, Jesus was the First and Paul states that all in Christ will be raised in that same immortal body when Jesus Comes.

The Bible does not say that the 2 witnesses are raised in the immortal body, it just states that they were raised from the dead.

Thousands of people have been raised from the dead, BUT to say that any of them were raised in the immortal body would make Paul a liar and the Word of God to not be true.

I will believe what Paul and Jesus and God stated, that Jesus was the First and Afterward at His Coming all will be raised in that same Immortal body and be like Jesus, You must remember that the Word of God states that this Resurrection takes place only at the Last Trumpet and it happens at the one same twinkling of an eye, NOT over many years.

Again Paul states very clearly in 1 Thess 4 that the seizing(rapture) is the last thing to take place in the sequence of all the events and it happens after the Resurrection of the Dead.

It is so important to have a healthy and true biblical doctrine of what the rapture physically is and when it physically happens.

Biblically speaking the rapture is NOT the Resurrection, it is the seizing that takes place after the Resurrection.

God stated himself when the First Resurrection of Immortality takes place and who is in that Resurrection.

I will not dare argue with God, my theory must depend on what God said.
God id Truth, and if He said this is the First Resurrection then I will believe Him.

Again staff member you are so focused on your Elijah theory that you deny the words of Christ, Paul and God.

The sad Truth is that this rapture theory presented by man has caused so much division in the Body of Christ and many have never even studied what the rapture is and when it happens.
many think that the rapture is the resurrection but Paul clearly states in scripture that it happens after the Resurrection.

I challenge every believer today to study 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 and study every thing that happens before the Resurrection takes place and see that the rapture is last.
If one is not Resurrected and given the immortal body then that same person will not be raptured.

Pauls desire was to be in that Resurrection.

It is time for all to truly study the Book of Revelations and to see that it was a whole book of Prophecy given to us His servants, not jus a few chapters but the whole book.

Remember that the Bride is not made ready, is not clothed, no marriage takes place until after the whore city is destroyed and does not take place until Rev 19 and 20.

Thanks for your reply Davidc.
I do not deny that Jesus is the Resurrection of Life, and my faith in Him is because He himself did rise from the dead and not just that but he arose immortal, which was more than the body that Lazarus arose in.

I can only say this and that is that my view is completely scriptural and the words of Paul, Jesus, John and God Himself.

This is what Hebrews states.
Heb_6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
There is a Doctrine of the Resurrection.
Paul says
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

If Christ did not rise immortal then we are the most miserable of men.

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Jesus is Coming and when He comes the Resurrection will take place and all in Christ will be raised immortal like Him.

Scripture is to be used for Doctrine.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Biblical truth is that the Doctrine of Resurrection is to be wrested from scripture and all scripture is from God for correct Doctrine and correction.

My heart burns for those that are being led astray by the theories of men that tickle the ears of flesh.

Many today want a quick fix and an escape from trials and persecution.

The wild olive branch that was grafted into the pure Olive tree is today boasting about itself and has forgotten that we are supported by the Roots of that Olive Tree and that we were grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel because of Gods Love.

Are we in the Olive Tree or do we stand alone from the Olive Tree.

The one thing we miss is the sixth trump. Satan is cast down and he becomes the false messiah. People will flock to see him wondering why they aren't raptured or saved. There will be so much spiritual deception then that unless you have the full armor of God you will be deceived. No rapture away from that. It's finally when Jesus has to come less there be no flesh left alive that we will be gathered. The false messiah is used to separate the believers from the false. God is raising his army to be a witness like those gone before.

Hi Budgie
On the ressurection of the witnesses
Can you prove that the two witnesses werent raised with Immortal bodies?
Surely you know that the coming of Elijah isnt a theory?

Again the trumpets etc it is very hard to time anything conclusively.
Yours Staff

Hi Budgie
Just because your answer is long doesnt mean it answers anything.
We know that after 1263 and one half days minimum that people of the world will be partying.How can that be when according to everyone but you the world is after coming out of the worst period ever recorded.
If the bride is not ready after the 2nd part of the 7yrs after the ministry of the two witnesses then they have failed in what is their primary work.
If the two witnesses ministry last the same 42months as the Antichrist what authority has he?Its over.
Thank you for your answers but I challenge you to study more deeply and not to rely on the same old answers given over the years
Yours Staff

About the two witnesses... I was listening to Zac Poonen's Revelation series the last few days back and forth to work.

(revelation) Revelation 10:7-11:15 by Zac Poonen
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=9004&commentView=itemComments

He offers some good and relevant points on these two witnesses! He brings in Elijah and Moses, you BOTH might want to give it a listen and see what you think.

God bless,
Lisa

PS: For those who want to find it all, under Audio Sermons, click on his name and his Revelation series begins on page 15 of all his sermons. The series is approx 16 sermons.

Hi Lysa
I must give it a listen
thanks staff

Sorry about the delay Staff, had a very busy week with prisoners.
Yes I can prove using scripture that the 2 witnesses do not raise in their immortal bodies as I already have previously.

Paul said in Corinthians when he was talking purely about the Resurrection (singular) that there is an Order
Jesus first
Afterward at His Coming all of those in Christ are Resurrected Immortal
That alone proves that this Resurrection is very unique and has an order.
Is Paul speaking the Truth or a Lie?

Jesus is very clear of what happens before His Coming and names all of the events, Jesus even states He is Coming after the Tribulation.

But that is not the only Proof

God Himself stated very clearly what the First Resurrection is and when, it is at the Coming of Christ and found in Rev 20 and it is when the Bride has finally made Herself ready after the Whore is destroyed.
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Is God speaking the Truth or a Lie?

we are told by God who destroys this whore
Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

God himself states that the Bride finally makes herself ready and is finally clothed and the marriage finally takes place after the Whore is destroyed by the 10 kings who serve the beast,
I will believe what God states, He certainly does not state that the Bride makes herself ready before the whore is destroyed
I will believe what God states
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
If God says it is the First Resurrection and the next one does not happen until approx. 1000 years later then I will not dispute, I will believe and align myself with His word.
I leave you with this thought, Is Paul, God and Jesus telling the Truth? or do we change what they say just to fit our own theories?
It is either the First Resurrection or it is not?

As to the Trumpets I just accept them in the exact order that God states.
The 2 witnesses arise just before the 7th Trumpet, very simple.

Staff member you put this question to me.
We know that after 1263 and one half days minimum that people of the world will be partying.How can that be when according to everyone but you the world is after coming out of the worst period ever recorded.

The answer is simple it is what God says
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

God states clearly that this is after the first 6 trumpets and that it is just before the 7th Trumpet.

I may not be many but I am agreeing exactly with what God is saying
Just believe what He says, surely He is speaking the Truth

Hi Budgie
Yes Paul and God are telling the truth but just because you repeat scripture over and over again that have no relevance wont make what you are saying in line with Paul or God,
Yours Staff

Staff member your question to me was
If the bride is not ready after the 2nd part of the 7yrs after the ministry of the two witnesses then they have failed in what is their primary work.
Not sure who you are referring to as who failed??
If God states that the Bride makes herself ready after the whore city is destroyed by the 10 kings who serve the beast then that is true.
The 2 witnesses testify before the beast in Jerusalem during the Tribulation just the same as the Church is being a witness to the world and making the Jews jealous because of their faith even to death.
For us to die for Christ is not a failure, Jesus died on the Cross and many believers have been martyred since His death and resurrection.
11 of the disciples died a cruel death for Jesus, look at the early church and look at the church today in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, China, North Korea, India, Pakistan and many more
Do you say that they have failed.
Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
The answers I give are always the same because it is the Word of God that I am using , exactly as Paul, Jesus and God states, I will trust in what they say.
If God says it is the First Resurrection then it is.
If God states that the Bride makes herself ready after the whore city is destroyed by the 10 kings then it is.
If Paul states that there is an order to the Resurrection then it is.
If Jesus states that He is Coming after the Tribulation then it is.
If the 2 witnesses arise after the 6 trumpets and just before the 7th then it is
Believe brother what God says so clearly not the divisive words of man.

Are we not supposed to believe exactly what scripture states, are we to not meditate on His word so that His word settles and takes root deep in our hearts.
If you agree that Paul and God are telling the Truth then why do you not believe it as the heart of your doctrine and theory.
If God states it is the First Resurrection then believe it and make it the heart of your doctrine, it appears so clear that you are not aligning your theory with the words of God
This is the First Resurrection.
I have stated and believe exactly what God Paul and Jesus stated I am not trying to twist, or deny or discount what they have said so clearly, I just simply believe and base my theory on their exact words.
Is that a Sin?
It is either the First Resurrection which is true or it is not true and Gods word is a lie.

Thanks Lysa, I have downloaded that sermon by Zac and am looking forward to listening, Zac himself used to be a Pretrib until he studied the word deeper and changed his theory to align with Gods word.

Thanks Lysa for the POONEN sermon
I have just listened to that Brilliant message by Zac, I always find him to be truthful and challenging, he has certainly walked a path for God, he brought out some beautiful truths in the sermon, keeps us focused.

Hi Budgie,
I have given to you what God has given to me.
Jesus said John was Elijah if you care to accept it.
You are part of the group of people that didnt care to accept who Elijah is.You are treating scripture like its the law and that you are in a court case.Scripture is their for God to inspire.Also you are taking what is simply true and changing it to suit your arguement but by and large the bible is simple
Yours Staff

It saddens my heart that you feel and say what you have just said
I have expressed only the words of jesus god paul and john
The only theory i have presented are their words and in the sequence they have presented
I have never denied john as being Elijah and have never denied elijah coming again
What i have said are the very words of god
If god states in Rev 20 that this is the first resurrection then i believe him
If paul states that there is an order to the resurrection
Then i believe him
If jesus said he is coming after the tribulation
Then i believe him
If paul states that the rapture happens after Jesus comes and after the resurrection
Then i believe him
If that is being legal and law then at least i am being obedient to him and basing my doctrine on his words not the ear tickling words of lies from man
I will continue to believe and trust in his words
Give me one verse where Jesus states he is coming before the tribulation
Give me one verse where the rapture comes before the resurrection
Give me one verse where god himself is declaring another resurrection Before the first resurrection
Give me a verse where it states that the resurrection comes before the tribulation
There are not any
I will therefore trust in what god paul john and jesus state so clearly stated
I will agree with the truth not on a mans theory that is not based on the word of God

Mike bickle has brilliant and balanced end times teaching
Certainly not ear tickling
Joel Richardson latest end times eye witness news dvd is worth watching and his other teachings

Quote "If God states that the Bride makes herself ready after the whore city is destroyed by the 10 kings then it is."

That is rev 19 and that is NOT what it says.
Here is the accurate rendering;
"7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his WIFE hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

She has become the wife,and there is no reason that she was "made ready" after the babalon destruction.
There is nothing at all there that would indicate she was ready before the destruction. It does not at all say when.

Quote "If God says it is the First Resurrection then it is."

Show me this 1st resurrection.

Quote "This is the one verse in the bible that suggests the traditional rapture popularized by Darby and Schofield after Margaret McDonald's prophetic utterance in 1830. "

She was postrib and believed the GT was needed for "purification"
A familiar ring amoung postribbers.
I suppose under your template the postrib doctrine started with her.

And no,pretrib was "started" by the bible. Is that early enough?

Quote "The verse is intended to comfort these fairly new converts with simple assurance that at the last trump they would be joined both to their Savior and their loved ones"

Nope,there is an indication however of their maturity;
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

BTW, How do postribs explain this away;
1 thes 3;13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

"where the First resurrection takes place and that is in rev 20 at the Coming of Christ."

Rev 20 says no such thing.

"Mike bickle has brilliant and balanced end times teaching
Certainly not ear tickling "

The gride/groom dimension,the saints in heaven DURING THE GT, and the fact that ALL HUMANS are killed by the AC DURING the GT who refuse the mark are way too huge to ignore.

But basically,yes, ignore the pretrib verses and Poof! postrib makes sense........only in you guys' minds.

Scripture has clearly busted postrib.In fact postrib rapture is impossible.

Quote "Also the preaching of Noah comes before Judgement when does the world get its final warning?
yours Staff"

Amazing that they do not have any example of a postrib deliverance.

Another indicator they make it up as they go.

Mat 25 for example clearly has the bride taken in a zero trib environment

Hello Psalm1
Thanks for your question
Rev 19 clearly starts with the whore being judged
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
It is very clear that this is happening
Then after this God says
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
God clearly shows that the wife makes herself ready after verses 1 to 3
Could not be any clearer, I believe what God says
And as to the First Resurrection again God cannot make it any clearer when this happens, it is stated very clearly in Revelations 20 which happens after Rev 19 when Jesus Comes to earth.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
God could not make it any clearer
If God states it is the First Resurrection then I will accept and believe.

To psalm 1
Have you studied the word Harpazo yet and seen exactly where it is used 13 times in the NT?
If so have you also seen that it means to be seized, never anywhere in scripture does it mean to be Resurrected.
Paul clearly showed that it happens after the Resurrection of the dead takes place.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 (Then) we which are alive and remain shall be (caught up) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul was very clear that the Rapture is the last thing that happens after the Resurrection of the dead.
The Resurrection is the most important part to take place.
Jesus showed us the shadow of this, He was Resurrected First and then later Raptured to Heaven.
It is important to align ourselves with scripture
Paul stated the Truth to the order.

Psalm1 you asked this question
BTW, How do postribs explain this away;
1 thes 3;13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
It is very easy to explain
Jesus is Coming.
Paul said this in 1 thess 3
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Paul could not make it any clearer, we should not be moved by affliction and tribulation as it is appointed unto us.
1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Paul wants us to be standing fast in the Lord so that we will be found blameless and Holy when He comes.
It is important to remember that there was no chapters or verses so we must continue reading the rest of the letter
Paul says this
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul states that Jesus will bring with Him all that who have died in Christ and that their dead bodies will be raised first.
Paul clearly shows that those that come with Christ have not yet received their Immortal Bodies.
This is a Resurrection of the Dead and if it is a Resurrection then Rev 20 states when the First Resurrection takes place.

Psalm 1 you stated Rev 20 says no such thing.
"where the First resurrection takes place and that is in rev 20 at the Coming of Christ."

Rev 20 clearly states the words This is the First Resurrection and it clearly happens when Christ comes which is described in Rev 19
This also aligns with Pauls teaching in 2 Thess 2

You said this
The gride/groom dimension,the saints in heaven DURING THE GT, and the fact that ALL HUMANS are killed by the AC DURING the GT who refuse the mark are way too huge to ignore.

Can you give me the verse where it says that all humans who did not receive the mark are killed by the AC during the GT??

If all humans are killed who did not receive the Mark of the Beast then who are the nations that we will rule over with Jesus for the Millenium??

Are you saying that we will be ruling over all of the nations that have received the Mark of the Beast??

Where does it also say that all of the saints are in Heaven during the GT????

Rev_6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Again give me one verse where Jesus states that he is Coming before the Tribulation??
You wont find one.
Give me one verse that states that the Rapture comes before the Resurrection??
You wont find one
Give me one verse that states that the Rapture is the Resurrection?
You wont find one, you will find that the rapture means to be seized and it happens after the Resurrection.
Give me one verse that says pretrib??
You wont find one
I will believe Paul, John, and Jesus
Jesus said He is Coming after the Tribulation not before
Paul said that we will be raptured after the Resurrection not before
John said that the First Resurrection takes place in Rev 20
Paul and Jesus both stated many times DO NOT BE DECIEVED.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

You said this Psalm1
Quote "Also the preaching of Noah comes before Judgement when does the world get its final warning?
yours Staff"
Noah preached before the Judgement and so do the 2 Witnesses before the Judgement
I think that 3 1/2 years is long enough for the 2 witnesses to preach, God is very gracious and is giving man great time to repent. Not only the 2 witnesses but also the believers that are a witness on the earth during that same 3 1/2 year period.
Remember it took Noah quite some time to build the Ark and while building the Ark he would have been telling many around him about the Judgement of God to come, they all had an opportunity to enter the Ark, but refused.

It is important to realise that the GT only lasts for 3 1/2 years then it ends, there is still a short period of time that exists after the end of the Tribulation, how long we do not know, but it cant be to long because it states that Jesus destroys the Antichrist when He Comes.
Look what Mark says
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
We don't know the day or hour but Jesus tells us very clearly that the day will happen in the days after the Tribulation has ended.

Most believers have never and I say never studied the word Harpazo in the New Testament, I have never seen one book, not one preacher speak on this one word Harpazo using all 13 verses in the New Testament.
If one would truly study this one word Harpazo and how it is used in scripture you would soon realise that it is only used once in regards to the Resurrection of the believers in Christ and that was by Paul and that it means to be seized and nothing more.IT DOES NOT MEAN RESURRECTION
It scripturally happens after the Resurrection.
The Rapture word Harpazo is the most scripturally misunderstood word that is being used today to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
It should be scripturally seen for what it is.
It is to be seized by God and it Happens after The Resurrection of the Dead.
I challenge every believer to study this word Harpazo in scripture and truly understand what the rapture really is.
I can guarantee to you this one massive Truth
JESUS was RESURRECTED before HE was raptured to Heaven
And We Will be RESURRECTED or have our bodies changed before we are raptured into the clouds.
There cannot be a rapture unless first Comes the Resurrection.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

LOOK AT PAGE 1 of this POST for the Scriptural study on the word Harpazo and see the Truth.

Quote;"Can you give me the verse where it says that all humans who did not receive the mark are killed by the AC during the GT??"

rev 13;15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

quote"Again give me one verse where Jesus states that he is Coming before the Tribulation??"

Give me one verse that says the church is NOT IN HEAVEN during the gt.

Give me one verse that says we are raptured after the gt.

Show me the word "postrib" in the bible

All rabbit trails

Again give me one verse where Jesus states that he is Coming before the Tribulation??

Jesus said so

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

See that? he said he is coming in the same timing,BEFORE THE FLOOD/GT.

Or maybe you can show me ANYTHING postflood????
What in your mind happened post-flood. Jesus return? a resurrection? A battle with satan??

Quote; "Psalm 1 you stated Rev 20 says no such thing.
"where the First resurrection takes place and that is in rev 20 at the Coming of Christ."

Rev 20 clearly states the words This is the First Resurrection and it clearly happens when Christ comes which is described in Rev 19"

No,rev 20 says nothing of "WHEN" you made that up with no basis at all.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

You are MAKING THAT SAY that those beheaded,the martyrs are resurrected at that time.
It says nothing of the sort.

Those are the same martyrs of rev 7

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

See that? they were martyed DURING THE GT.
You have left so much out. Very bewildering

".......had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign "with him a thousand years."

See that? from rev 20? Those martyrs are from rev 7 DURING THE GT,AND THEY ARE IN HEAVEN with glorified bodies. You have "1st res" as happening after the gt which is IMPOSSIBLE. Completely impossible.

Quote;"Where does it also say that all of the saints are in Heaven during the GT????"

Rev 19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

All in heaven,during the gt.

The bride made the wife,the saints,the marriage supper,,all IN HEAVEN,DURING THE GT

by budgie on 2015/2/13 23:57:30

Psalm1 you asked this question
BTW, How do postribs explain this away;
1 thes 3;13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
It is very easy to explain
Jesus is Coming.
Paul said this in 1 thess 3
1Th 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
Paul could not make it any clearer, we should not be moved by affliction and tribulation as it is appointed unto us.
1Th 3:8 For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Paul wants us to be standing fast in the Lord so that we will be found blameless and Holy when He comes.
It is important to remember that there was no chapters or verses so we must continue reading the rest of the letter
Paul says this
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Paul states that Jesus will bring with Him all that who have died in Christ and that their dead bodies will be raised first.
Paul clearly shows that those that come with Christ have not yet received their Immortal Bodies.
This is a Resurrection of the Dead and if it is a Resurrection then Rev 20 states when the First Resurrection takes place."

Your theory has a major crack.

"17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Those raptured do not die.

Quote;"Why is so much time wasted on this? Yes. It's wasted. Why? Because it's not really fruitful in building other brothers/sisters up to be more patient, kind, gentle, etc."

The rapture of the church is the catching up of the bride by the groom.
It is the "times of the gentiles fulfilled". It is the literal habitation of the saints in their "mansions" Jesus spoke of.

I can image a bride a few weeks before her wedding and all she can think of is that big day in the furure.

There is nothing more fascinating.
SAd that you have such a negative approach to the next biggest event in heaven.

"Does it make us more fervent in prayer, witnessing and living lives set apart to him if we have this all figured out?"

I love the study of the Bride/groom dimension.

My second would be the levitical priesthood.

My third would be the end times in general.

nobody is forcing anyone to look at these type threads.

I think a more "constructive" criticism would be to correct the "calvanism" thread posters

Just my $.02

by psalm1

"Does it make us more fervent in prayer, witnessing and living lives set apart to him if we have this all figured out?"

I love the study of the Bride/groom dimension.

My second would be the levitical priesthood.

My third would be the end times in general.

nobody is forcing anyone to look at these type threads.

I think a more "constructive" criticism would be to correct the "calvanism" thread posters

Just my $.02

These are all good topics to discuss. I used to get a tad bit aggravated with you and budgie, but after being (passively) accused of not maturing in Christ because I felt led to defend the topic of signs and wonders... :) :) :) I now understand, so please forgive me, brothers!!!

Debate on, b/c I've learned a few things by reading both your responses... like I don't know half as much about this topic as I thought I did!! :) :) So I will continue to lurk and pop in when I have a question or two!

God bless you both!!!
Lisa

I believe in the rapture of the church as it is written in the bible. What baffles me more is the restoration of the temple sacrifices in the latter part of Ezekiel. May I ask anybody of our pre-tribulation brothers to give some enlightenment on this subject as well as their views about the 'end of the time for the gentiles' as stated in Rom 11:25 & Luke 21:24. Good day to all.

It is so important to focus on the Truth of End Times Events and knowing what is a truthful doctrine and what is not a truthful doctrine for the simple reason and that is this.

Mat_24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

We are to know the Prophecies that have been declared by Jesus and all of the Prophets.

Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

There are Prophecies that remain regarding the Coming of Jesus again to Rule on this earth and they will be fulfilled.

Jesus said this.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat_24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus told us so beforehand so that we will know what is to happen before He Comes again and so that we will see His Prophecies fulfilled, Fulfilment of Prophecies reveal a Truthful God and builds faith in a Faithful God.

There can only be one Truth regarding the Coming of Jesus, and it does matter a great deal, it meant enough to Jesus and Paul, They both said to us Don't Be Deceived, they both said to us Watch and be Ready.

Paul and others begs this.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

passerby wrote:
I believe in the rapture of the church as it is written in the bible. What baffles me more is the restoration of the temple sacrifices in the latter part of Ezekiel. May I ask anybody of our pre-tribulation brothers to give some enlightenment on this subject as well as their views about the 'end of the time for the gentiles' as stated in Rom 11:25 & Luke 21:24. Good day to all.

God bless,
Lisa

We did have a pretty long discussion here on the latter part of Ezekiel and the temple/sacrificial system. Can't remember what thread but someone might. Some like me believe it is clearly symbolic while others believe it is literal and the sacrifices will be a "memorial."

I found it:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=53217&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

Thanks, TMK!!