What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?

how would it walk itself out?

i'm not setting up some divisive straw man "argument"...no no.

to those who are feeling the Pull of Jesus OUT into Green Pastures..ie Remnant (with NO implication that such are "more thans", but in humble dependence on God)

how would a Remnant gathering "look"?

just two(3!) notes from me, as I am Lead:

1
IF a common space is rented, say a plain humble storefront, instead of painting on the front "New Life Church".....just paint that Beautiful Name "Jesus" on the window?....nothing on the door, no hours of operation, no contact numbers....nothing Except the Name....Jesus, the hungry sheep of God WILL find their way in.

2. since this is NOT a "new denominational" work, might it be good and wise to check one's "-ism's" and "ists" at the door?....and since all we know is Christ and Him Crucified, might it be Good, to humbly implore Jesus to Pastor the work?...and let no man "steady the Ark"?

3. I feel no CLOCK should be inside, to profane the Time with the LORD, meaning a NEW "order of service"....worship sharing, its Scriptural....you have Bible, find it, i'll give you a hint...Paul. one at a time, as Jesus leads, share a song/hymn, a testimony, a Bit of Scripture, a prayer request, or a prayer, or praise report...try this kind of meeting...before you even realize....you been there for 4 hours, to the Glory of God.

these are just a few of my thoughts. In Jesus love, neil

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=25485

and God bless the fingers that typed your post.

the most attribute of your reply is YOU ARE REAL

AUTHENTIC.

no "religiostic" posturing.....if you are "ill-equipped", I am totally disqualified from any human leadership in a such a work, as I am a divorced man.

God willing, these things come to pass, I'm spending my time on my face, in intercessory prayer as covering.

my original post, I was more sealed in the head, so to speak, just wanted to start a conversation, a quiet reasoning...not a religious rumble.

I cant live without Revival...personal....and then Area wide......SW Wis, the Driftless region....so many dry churches....and during football season after 12 noon?....emptied, so folks can worship the Packers, and take their "communion"...beer...or worse.

and may God kindle a Fire for national revival.

i'm going to finally attempt to finish my firewood, as I have three days forecast of clear weather and 70 degree temps....but in the mean, I hoping and praying saints will add to this...I want to see what others feel in the Holy Spirit....hey dolfan, whats your name my brother?

please forgive me for the "Sherman" comment, I was being ungodly mean. in His love, neil

"me thinks" you're just looking for an argument.

as you misread the conversation I long for.

may I humbly ask , in the love of God, could you see your way, to not post on this thread?

I only ask that because within three lines, you accuse me of "missing the mark", that's not a conversation, its an accusation, so if you please.....

TMK...Tim "dolfan" wrote that, so it would be better if he told you what he meant.

as far as I am led, there's this unnatural divide between "clergy and "laity". it is REALLY enforced in the roman institution.....and the model in protestant 501c3 churches, where the "laity" sits passively on sundays and listens to a seminary trained "clergy" deliver a carefully prepared SPEECH, at a precisely pre-timed point..just as the whole "service" bulletin has outlined,

which to me smacks of "rome-lite"...and it endeavours to put God in a carefully timed box.

I believe when we ALL worship share, paying no attention to time, not only do we become one in the Household of God, we're also waiting on God, to move among us.

in this Most holy Faith, I believe we don't need more resource, or bigger buildings, we need more tears, and when one's sharing consists of asking the others to pray for their family, who might be involved with whatever godless endevour, could be drugs or alcohol, and we all listen as if it was our own family and God starts o move among us, we CRY, when we honor that prayer request, because their blood kin, has become our blood kin.

I pray i'm making sense.....WE NEED MORE TEARS, and we really need to get away from making human pastors a sort of "idol"...or "leaders"....do away with that roman divide of clergy and laity.

that's where the Holy Spirit has been leading me.

Frank Bartlemans testimony--1906 (this might SEEM long, but if you're so Led...its a beautiful Read)

"Brother Seymour was recognized as the nominal leader in charge. But we had no pope or hierarchy. We were "brethren.” We had no human program. The Lord Himself was leading. We had no priest class, nor priest craft. These things have come in later, with the apostatizing of the movement. We did not even have a platform or pulpit in the beginning. All were on a level. The ministers were servants, according to the true meaning of the word. We did not honor men for their advantage, in means or education, but rather for their God-given "gifts” He set the members in the "body.” Now” A wonderful and horrible thing is come to pass in the land. The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and My people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof.” ”“Jer. 5:30, 31. Also "AS for my people, children are their oppressors (sometimes grown up ones), and women rule over them.”
- Isa 3:12.

Brother Seymour generally sat behind two empty shoeboxes, one on top of the other. He usually kept his head inside the top one during the meeting, in prayer. There was no pride there. The services ran almost continuously. Seeking souls could be found under the power almost any hour, night and day. The place was never closed nor empty. The people came to meet God. He was always there. Hence a continuous meeting. The meeting did not depend on the human leader. God’s presences become more and more wonderful. In that old building, with its low rafters and bare floors, God took strong men and women to pieces, and put them together again, for His glory. It was a tremendous overhauling process. Pride and self-assertion, self-importance and self-esteem, could not survive there. The religious ego preaches its own funeral sermon quickly.

No subjects or sermons were announced ahead of time, and no special speakers for such an hour. No one knew what might be coming, What God would do. All was spontaneous, ordered of the Spirit. We wanted to hear from God, through whoever he might speak. We had no "respect of persons” The rich and educated were the dame as the poor and ignorant, and found a much harder death to die. We only recognized God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self-only recognized opinionated. Those were Holy Ghost meetings, led of the Lord. It had to start in the poor surroundings, God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self- to keep out the selfish, human element. All came down in humility together, at His feet. They all looked alike, and had all things in common in that sense at least. The rafters were low, the tall must come down. By the time they got to "Azusa” they were humbled, ready for the blessing. The food was thus placed for the lambs, not for giraffes. All could reach it.

We were delivered right there from ecclesiastical hierarchism and abuse. We wanted God. When we first reached the meeting we avoided as much as possible human contact and greeting. We wanted to meet God first. We got our head under some bench in the corner in prayer, and met men only in the Spirit, knowing them "after the flesh” no more. The meetings started themselves, spontaneously, in testimony, praise and worship. The testimonies were never hurried by a call for "popcorn.” We had no prearranged programmed to be jammed through the time. Our time was the Lord’s. We had real testimonies from fresh heart-experience. Otherwise, the shorter the testimonies, the better. A dozen might be on their feet at one time, trembling under the mighty power of god. We did not have to get our cur from some leader. And we were free from lawlessness. We were shut up to God in prayer in the meetings, our minds on Him. All obeyed God, in meekness and humility. In honor we "preferred one another.” The Lord was liable to burst through any one. We prayed for this continually. Some one would finally get up anointed for the message. All seemed to recognize this and gave way. It might be a child, a woman, or a man. It might be from the back seat, or from the front. It made no difference. We rejoiced that God was working. No one wished to show himself. We thought only of obeying God.

In fact there was an atmosphere of God there that forbade any one but a fool attempting to put himself forward without the real anointing. And such did not last long. The Spirit, from the throne controlled the meetings. Those were truly wonderful days. I often said that I would rather live six months at that time than fifty years of ordinary life. But God is just the same today. Only we have changed."

The kind of meetings that Neil is talking about and brother Bartelman, terrifies men. The way we do church is so ingrained into the phyche of men over the centuries that such meetings now seem so radical. Fear is typically the order of the day, fear and often times a need to control. As good as many of the well known good preachers of the day are, I often wonder just how they would do in meetings where they did not have the preeminence...........bro Frank

Since we are using the word remnant, below is an article I wrote to explain what the word meant to . It is a little long, but it may be of some use to some who have pondered what is meant in these days by that term...........bro Frank

I would like to clarify for some just what I believe to be God’s remnant children. To use any word over and over again it can begin to take on a life of its own and that can happen with the word remnant. A remnant child of God is simply someone who genuinely knows Jesus, someone who has been truly converted. Now, why the distinction, why even use any other name rather than simply ” Christian?” Well, I am certainly not stuck on the name, to me it is more of an adjective that a noun. It simply describes what Jesus was talking about when He says ” many are called , but few are chosen.”(Matt 22:14) Now, just as that was true when Jesus spoke it then, it is equally true now. The context of that scripture comes from the previous chapter when Jesus showed , though parable, that men would not give to God what was rightfully His, instead they rejected and killed His son. Now in chapter 22 Jesus uses another illustration , this time a wedding, which people are too busy to come to.

So, Jesus establishes that the invitation is there before men to give to God what is His, to come when invited, but by and large they reject this, and only a relatively small number accept. This same invitation exists today. Now, let us look at the name Christian. In a western world that by and large calls itself Christian by name and by birth, then we have to have a further distinction because we know that simply being born into a ” Christian,’ household does not make one a Christian. Neither does calling one-self a Christian make that person a Christian. There needs of course, to be a genuine conversion, a new creature in Christ, a new birth actually and not merely theologically and of course there are marks of this new birth. Now, C.S.Lewis, more than half a century ago, wrote about the fact that the term ” Christian,’ had lost it’s meaning. He used the word ” Gentleman, to illustrate what he meant.

More than three-hundred years ago, in England, the term ” Gentleman,” meant that one was a landowner. If you did not own land, you were not a Gentleman. Now, over the following decades and centuries, whether men owned land or not, they began to call themselves Gentlemen, thus emptying the actual meaning of the word. Lewis was arguing that this was exactly what has happened to the word ” Christian.” I agree entirely with Lewis and of course, things have not improved in the last 50 or so years. And so the definition of the word remnant is , as a noun, ” a small remaining quantity of something.” As an adjective ” remaining.” Websters defines the word to mean ” a small surviving group.” Now, if 7000 did not bow the knee to Baal and there was roughly a population of seven million in that day, that means that for every one thousand people, only one had not bowed the knee to Baal.

If we extrapolated that number to today, that would mean there were just over three million in the USA who had not bowed their knees to the gods of today. I am not suggesting such a low number, I personally think it is much higher than that, but you get the idea. And so, as we move on down through the centuries from Pentecost, we begin to see a religious kingdom built by men who believed they were doing the work of God, for the most part this kingdom was the kingdom of Catholicism. This is what I would call ‘ Christendom.” The world of Christendom is everything that calls itself Christian. Yet, only a relatively small number stood against the heretical teachings of the Catholic church down through the ages. We now know them as martyrs, but in their day they were known as heretics by Christendom.

You can read about these people in many different publications, Foxes Book of Martyrs is an excellent resource as is ” The Pilgrim Church.” And so, in all of those ages, including the dark ages, God had a witness, God had His Church and the gates of hell could not prevail against it, even although they came at it with all of Hell’s fury. Now, as it always was then so it is today. Christendom is by and large made up of religious people who have not been genuinely born again. And just as there is marks of those who have been born again, obviously those who have not will have their own marks, the marks of the world. And of course we see that in divorce rates and so on that are no different, and in some cases higher than the world. And so, while there are baby Christians and mature Christians and weaker Christians and everything in between in genuine Christianity, there is also to be found the genuine transformation.

Well, if this has always been the case and today is just the same really as it has always been, then why is there any urgency in the genuine Church? Well, I believe it is because of the prophetic calendar. And by that I mean that so many in God’s Body believe that the return of the Lord is coming soon, perhaps even in our own lifetime. Now one may argue that Christians have always thought that. I would argue that without the return of Israel and other prophecies then the prophetic clock could never really have begun to come close to the time we are now approaching. And what time is that? Well, since I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, nor do I believe in dominionism, then I believe that the birth pangs have begun and there is a count-down to the time of severe persecution. A persecution so bad that if the Lord did not shorten those days then there would simply be no genuine Christians left alive prior to the return of Jesus. Now with persecution I will argue that the Lord will pour out His Spirit on His people in order for them to be equipped to handle such worldwide persecution.

And because the persecution will be so severe, then the Spirit will be poured out as has never been seen before, in essence, the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea because persecution will be worldwide. Now, this takes us back to the remnant children, simply the genuinely converted. As the denominations and churches continue their slide into compromise, it will become increasingly difficult for genuine believers to stay where they are. And, when you add to that scenario the removing of God’s presence from these churches, it will simply become intolerable for genuine Christians to stay in these places and they will begin to come out, and have been now for quite some-time. As the light begins to be removed from these churches by the removal of the light-bearers, the genuine Christians, then the denominations and dead churches will more and more identify with the world and with the State. This will set them up to become part of a World church and at the same time set them up to eventually become the deadliest enemies of the genuine Christian who cannot and will not stand by and be part of an every sliding, ever darkening compromising establishment.

Yet, the genuine Christian has always loved his genuine brothers and sisters and loves to fellowship with like-minded passionate Spirit filled believers. And so, they will find each other and as the end of ages come, they will comfort and encourage one another. Brothers and sisters, we are living in these times right now. Now it may be the beginning of the process, but the process , the great falling away is already well under way and is setting the stage for what is to come. Our life time? Very possibly. Our children or grandchildren’s life-time? Almost certainly. Yet saints, even if it were 100 year off ( which I do not believe) God would already be preparing His children for the end of the age. Now, more than ever, we must be able to hear that small still voice and know the Word of God. Now, more than ever, we must cherish the genuine presence of God in the midst of so much counterfeit. Stay close to the Lord and look for His lead and follow His directions. Hold the things of this world loosely ( as we should always do anyway) and trust in Him and lean not on our own understanding.

What would Remnant ecclesiology "look" like?

We would change the question to: What HAS Remnant ecclesiology "looked" like?

There are many examples of groups of saints throughout the 2000 years of the history of Church when in times where Christianity became popular and compromised that they assembled in various ways to preserve the true testimony of what the church is. One book that chronicles many of these groups is the wonderful volume: The Pilgrim Church, it can be read free as a PDF here: http://thejesusway.info/pdf/PilgrimChurch/PilgrimChurchVer-0200-beta.pdf

My suggestion for the re-wording of the question is that we can see how God's people have assembled over the 2000 years of the Church and that this always included strong leadership. Whether you take the Quakers who in their meetings had open sharing yet as the movement it was strongly organized at times. Moravians, Waldensians, Paulicians, and many more had strong leadership in their movements.

What does it look like if God assembled a movement of "remnant" believers in North America right now? The current trend is anti-leadership and anti-structure because of hurts in many lives of believers. This I believe is an over-reaction. God will need to bring a great baptism of His Spirit and love to see many brethren work together for the cause of His Name.

Either way God always has a testimony and some movement of brethren who decide to humble themselves under the mighty hand of God and He lifts them up because they are seeking the glory of God alone. I do have hope and belief that God will allow many more groupings of believers to happen before the coming of the Lord that He can have a great testimony in the earth again of a Church where He is Head.

Lastly, my humble advice to brethren is to not try and re-do church or dismantle everything that has been Church, but look to godly examples of fellowships over the 2000 years of remnant history, look to the book of Acts and follow the wisdom of brethren where we have seen the Spirit of God come upon those wineskins in their day.

God is always doing a New Thing but that does not mean the new wineskin of our day for the remnant will be very different from others. The Church will always be the Church, we must always look to the Scriptures to see what we are to do.

All of Gods people, moving in all of Gods power, reaping all of Gods harvest, in all of God's world..

Amen brother that reminds me of the Moravian movement in that when they cast lots for who was the next missionary to forsake (literally) all, that ALL names where in the basket, there were no elites all (if true believers and part of the assembly) where considered qualified missionaries.

Again this does not negate the need for leadership and strong giftings in the body of Christ, we must not negate this, though the work of the pastor, prophet, preacher is to equip the rest of the body of Christ to DO the work of the ministry.

God moves in the here and the now and in each and every age God's remnant people have reacted to the surroundings that they have found themselves. Sometime they had to seperate themselves. Always they had to speak the Truth in love without fear or favor of men. Always they were rejected by the organised church of the day. You cant " re-do," church because the Church is God's people. It simply is. And it is where two or three are gathered together.

It is of some interest to look back and see how faithful saints down through the ages have gathered as there are principals that have never changed, the greatest one of all is that Jesus is preeminent in meetings and His Holy Spirit leads. ........bro Frank

My heart will ache to see this for the rest of this earthly life.

mine too, that's why I was led to start this thread...the ache was too acute. Jesus DID say, "Whatever you ask for, in My Name...".

Sola, (I wish I knew your name) you have no idea how you bolstered my spirit this very morning. Not because you "agreed" with me, per se, but because I know there is one OTHER soul out there, that has this heart ache, that there HAS TO BE MORE in this Most Holy Faith.

Last night, RIGHT before I went to bed, I read some of the new posts, and while I love unabashedly the saints that wrote them, I felt that what I was trying to say...my burden is either misunderstood, or others have different takes on ecclesiology.

so this morning, I'm up at 4:30, as like you probably, i'm half awake...coffee, listen to NOAA weather, etc...all the while i'm pondering this subject, talking to myself, Talking to Jesus....I found extensive notes I made in 2007, called "The Order of Service"...which was a rough draft of some of the elements, what I posed before...read them.

Now, I've been in Isaiah's prophecy, just passed that mountaintop of Isaiah 58..took my ESV study Bible out, to go BACK into Acts, so that I could reason with my brother Greg and others.

Now what you quoted as you probably know is Frank Bartleman's early accounts of the Azusa Street Revival, said book now called "Azusa Street". Even the CALLING of what went on, in Los Angeles, circa April 1906 a revival, is a huge bone of contention among followers of Jesus.....even to this day....But when I read that section of his account that I posted, my heart soars, I adore dear Frank B.....even he testified that the Azusa Street work went off the rails, when they (later) put a sign up, "Apostolic Faith Mission".....as if we need yet another "denomination"...he later found a former deserted "German Lutheran" church that he prayed for at 8th and Maple in LA.....this Work was referred to by him soley as "8th and Maple".

Forgive me, i'm wandering (probably because it now dawn and I have SO MUCH dry cured firewood, I must bucket up and stack on this porch, and I have AT least 2 to 3 days of unusually clear dry warm weather, and my body aint what it was at 25)

Scripturally, here's the passage that led me in this direction:

"What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up".
1 Cor 14:26

this was in 2003, and at the same time i'm reading Bartleman's account.

the second thing I want to say, ...PLEASE, don't let this thread go, humanly, I'm all alone up here, county the size of Manhattan but with 20,000 people and dozens and dozens of United Methodist, Lutheran ....a "oneness" penteecostal, and AoG Pentecostal, tons of roman churches....been to so many, and most times I leave, i'm crushed....I don't go with PREjudgement, I go to meet with the Lord, and I find the Spirit has been quenched, even so I write a letter to the pastor, a few times, suggesting a weekly prayer meeting, I never got a reply from any of these letters.

in all cases, MOST of the congregants have grey hair, which is fine, but the youth of district? their "church" is called Budweiser, and their "god", the green bay packers....heaven forbid we get in the way of that "worship"!

...and they all have a knowledge of Jesus, they all have a knowledge of God....very much like the Hebrides was in the late 40's...at least that's the way I feel...and now meth is starting to make its way into this county, along with heroin. Don't get me wrong, its like the mythical "Shire" in its physical beauty, and everybodies "Wisconsin Nice", we all greet one another outside this store or that store, passing cars wave to each other. (its an index finger up, as a "hi)

So lets stay together on this, Frank, you too, and any others that feel a burden to GO BACK to Acts, Jesus as Pastor, and every saint a minister AND servant, where I love and esteem you MORE than myself.

May your day be richly blessed in the Peace and Love of Messiah Jesus, neil

I feel terrible about our dialogue yesterday, please forgive me, I have NO excuse, I felt you were judging me, and hence reacted not nice. if we disagree, we disagree, so be it, but i'd rather love you with God's love instead....so if you want to comment, whatever you want to comment, please do so...i'm sorry...truly am Jimmy, in Jesus love, neil

I have much to say in response to your post....but I have to get outside and work....not just winging a post back.

i'm going to foresee this hugepile of dry wood, still outside my window....WET.....and that will make me very sad and grief-stricken....i'm sure a northern tier lad like yourself understands my quandary.

on thing though: "strong leadership" ...only One, Jesus.

much love, neil

God moves in the here and the now and in each and every age God's remnant people have reacted to the surroundings that they have found themselves. Sometime they had to seperate themselves. Always they had to speak the Truth in love without fear or favor of men. Always they were rejected by the organised church of the day. You cant " re-do," church because the Church is God's people. It simply is. And it is where two or three are gathered together.

It is of some interest to look back and see how faithful saints down through the ages have gathered as there are principals that have never changed, the greatest one of all is that Jesus is preeminent in meetings and His Holy Spirit leads. ........bro Frank

Brother Frank, I am not disagreeing with you but wanted to express also that we could see and "have seen" Jesus preeminent and the Holy Spirit leading with strong leadership and also the Holy Spirit greatly leading admist great structure and organization of a remnant group.

Agreed 100% the Church is the people, and we also see something of structure of how the Holy Spirit lead in the book of Acts and history on how these people network, and gather as the Holy Temple unto the Lord. At times in history the remnant were very large groups for instance the Bohemian Brethren (unitas fraturum - united brethren) encompassed 1/3 of the country of Bohemia and were still a very vibrant group.

These groups also (at times) had great organization, structure and from our viewpoint very denominational with strong leadership yet they were still the remnant. So it is not always coming out of something, sometimes its coming into a larger work of God where the Spirit is resting upon.

Brother Neil if Jesus is not first and Head then ultimately the gathering of the remnant will be in it for themselves and their glory. Agreed. (Yes, I fully understand in regards to wet wood and the labor of your hands in this way)!

Also another brother mentioned that a remnant gathering would not be registered with the government, I strongly agree with this and feel in our modern times this is necessary.

Heavenly words on the Lord's day, so anointed, they lift my sagging shoulders.

I been in Acts this morning, I went out of Isaiah, where I was in Chapter 60....I felt it right to go to Acts,based upon my question.

the thing I want to forward, usage of the word "remnant" is right, although the Seventh Day Adventist seem to have appropriated it.

Obviously WORDS or NAMES are important, they contain power, in that they frame, the onus of the idea behind the words.

my hesitation is that this word "remnant" contains an element of "more than", an implicit "superiority" in this Most Holy Faith.

I submit going BACK, before 315 AD, when this Most Holy Faith, be called what it once was, "The Way"....."Christian" was based on the pejorative Latin, "chrestus"......even romanists or greek othrodox call themselves Christian...."crusaders", a bloody bunch are known as Christians....I am NOT saying get rid of this name, but to me, it has so much ill baggage attached.

that's just me though, much love in Christ, neil

you wrote:

Brother Neil if Jesus is not first and Head then ultimately the gathering of the remnant will be in it for themselves and their glory. Agreed. (Yes, I fully understand in regards to wet wood and the labor of your hands in this way)!

Also another brother mentioned that a remnant gathering would not be registered with the government, I strongly agree with this and feel in our modern times this is necessary.

Bless God, lets reason on the elements we agree on, instead of how we MIGHT disagree;

meaning I believe in any The Way-Body of Christ, we should implore Jesus to Pastor the Work, and that we have nothing to do with registering or grabbing ANY tax advantage the state grants.

I am not 'anti'-leadership, nor have I ever been hurt by "leadership"....that said, the words "strong leadership", makes me leery....it seems to me man attempting to by a strong personality, a persuasive personality, to "lord" himself above others.

JUST as an example, lets just say, a group of followers of Jesus does have a storefront...a common area...well, we have a bathroom, right?...with a toilet. I desire to clean that toilet...that make sense to you?

when I look back at the Way, the early Church, before Constantine.....what did they do?, the prayed together, they ate together, searched Scripture together.....and Scripture was Old Testament SCROLLS, very expensive, and hard to get....and probably at the same time the various Gospel accounts were being hand scribed by followers of Jesus....the Epistles of Paul and Peter, etc...were yet to be wrote....at that time, via the teaching and reasoning, elements of the Epistles were the reasoning and prayers of the early saints....

now as time went by, Constantine had his dream, rome said it was "okay" to form the roman institution on the foundations of a fading empire, and they put an idol of Jesus on the Cross, started Mary idolatry, etc..in short, even past Luther, it seems to me, for 1700 years we have failed God, the empires of man have USED "religion" to bind people, into man centered systems.

as you know, a day in the LORD is a thousand years, so 1700 years isn't even two days, the Way I am led to see it

Man seems ALWAYS desiring to take simple faith and turn it into the business of religion...that's what hammers my heart.

But we agree on two things, Jesus as Pastor, and no dealings with any government....yes?

much love in Christ, neil

here's a thin tome, that I love:

"Life Together"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Together

when I look back at the Way, the early Church, before Constantine.....what did they do?, the prayed together, they ate together, searched Scripture together.....and Scripture was Old Testament SCROLLS, very expensive, and hard to get....and probably at the same time the various Gospel accounts were being hand scribed by followers of Jesus....the Epistles of Paul and Peter, etc...were yet to be wrote....at that time, via the teaching and reasoning, elements of the Epistles were the reasoning and prayers of the early saints....

And in those days there were 12+ apostles that the saints submitted to their leadership fully.

Of course these apostles sought the heart of the Lord in all things, they called Jesus the Chief Shepherd and Head of the Body. But they did have a responsibility to make decisions as best as they could and people looked to them for this leadership in the body of Christ.

Bro Greg writes..........

"What does it look like if God assembled a movement of "remnant" believers in North America right now? The current trend is anti-leadership and anti-structure because of hurts in many lives of believers. This I believe is an over-reaction."

It's strange how different people have different perspectives. I have heard the above accusation time and time again. In Pentecostal circles a different hue of it is " touch not the Lord's anointed," and so on.

When Whitfield wrote his circular letter in the 1700s where he stated that almost none of the clergy in the church of England new anything of the new birth, he faced a ferocious barrage of criticism and accusation, in fact he was banned from all of their pulpits. The vast majority of people that I have met in the last several years have not been ant-leadership at all, although they have often been accused of that by their detractors. What I have found is some of the most sold out believers who are willing to follow God no matter what and who could no longer stomoch what passes for church in their land and, being led of the Holy Spirit, " came out of her."

And that last sentence is the key for me. Being led of the Holy Spirit is vital for a walk that is not based on mans wisdom but is based on the direction of the Holy Spirit who has promised to lead us and to guide us into all truth. It is an every present help in time of need. The Lord knows the times in which we live, just as He knew the times in which the saints of the past lived. It s impossible to be sustained by yesterdays manna. We must be fed and directed by God daily. If men are not baptized fully in the Holy Spirit they are , at best, containers of knowledge gathered, but with no Godly wisdom and discernment, only an earthly wisdom which in this day and age and present state of Christendom, often passes for wisdom from above. It is vital that men and woman are baptized in the Holy Spirit so that they can hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church. We need eyes that can see and ears that can hear what God is saying in this present age and to us for this day..........bro Frank

Yet dear brother Whitefield was still an ordained clergy of the church of england and did not leave them I believe as did wesley and in a sense as best to their ability submitted the authorities in the church.

"Like Wesley, Lady Huntingdon, with Whitefield, Howell Harris, and most of her preachers, was strongly attached to the Church of England. They wished not to be classed with Dissenters; but in order to protect her chapels from suppression, or appropriation by the Established Church, she had to avail herself, in 1779, of the 'Toleration Act,' a law by which all religious societies that would not be subject to the established ecclesiastical power, could control their own chapels by an avowal direct or virtual, of dissent. Her 'Connection' thus took its place among the Dissenting churches, and Romaine, Townsend, Venn, and many others of her most influential co-laborers belonging to the establishment, ceased to preach in her chapels."

In England, Calvinistic Methodism, as a distinct organization, made but moderate progress after the death of Whitefield. One wing, the so-called Tabernacle Connection, or Whitefield Methodists, inclined toward the forms of the Congregationalists, and a large proportion of their societies were absorbed by that denomination. Lady Huntingdon's Connection, on the other hand, adhered to the liturgical forms of the Anglican Church. Trevecca, and later Cheshunt College, served as its educational centre. The Connection continued to hold its ground, but was not favored with any marked advancement.
http://history-christian-church.blogspot.ca/2012/03/whitefield-and-calvinistic-methodism.html

So it seems to me that Whitefield desired to be a part of established churches and preached revival messages desiring the reviving of them.

The holy Spirit will not lead us to repudiate all leadership, rather have a life of submission and peace with all men.

Whitfield was ordained by a friend of the family into the Church of England but was never assigned a pulpit. The chapels that Lady Huntington was trying to protect were 60 chapels that she herself founded to further the cause of her friend Whitfield. She was protecting them from the Church of England who despised Whitfield and his " extemporaneous," preaching.

The notion that Whitfield desired to be part of the established church is simply wrong. He did in fact preach to the " lower classes," in fields and this was a major part of the great awakening that took place outside of the established church and despite its great opposition to it.

"The holy Spirit will not lead us to repudiate all leadership, rather have a life of submission and peace with all men."

What are you responding to brother? Did someone " repudiate all leadership?" Can you show where someone repudiated all leadership as that is quite preposterous and inflammatory. ...........bro Frank

beloved,

"sorry..?"...."sorry for the long post"?

banish that thought! Bless you for taking the time to share the beat of your heart, and even though the testimony ended in grief, I will take the grief any day, every stripe, every scar on our hearts just serves to strengthen.

What a wonderful testimony, can I just quote the last parts?

the fourth meeting, i decided not to plan anything and just move as the holy spirit led me.

This is The Way.

this night everyone wanted to pray and the most amazing thing happened as we prayed. as each person said what they wanted pray for i heard the holy spirit say to me, this person needs this and before i could step up and do it, one of the members did exactly what i was suppose to do but they didn't know this. it happened 4 times in a row.

"that night everyone wanted to pray"....because you "allowed" the Holy Spirit to have sway and NOT "plan" everything....blessed son of man.

But wait...there's a price to pay, how dare you do anything outside the "control" of "strong leadership"

over the course of these group meetings i learn't so much about the dangers of control and seen some real growth amongst the members. As the church found out what was happening in our group they decided they didnt want the group in their building. things stopped.

God have mercy on us.....an illustration of "religious leadership" in action, while the "humble leader"...you, who didn't "plan", instead letting the Holy Spirit have sway over this precious and beautiful group.

I wonder, in abject sadness, how many "helpless and harassed" souls were stumbled possibly forever by these ten shekel and a shirt "leaders" who offended God by booting them out of a building....because you weren't in "submission" to their neat and cozy country club labeled a "church".

not meaning to end a bad note, as the Lord leads me, God regards you as a choice servant, and pray, for this ministry will rise again, Be strong, I say that to myself too. in Jesus love, neil

"The holy Spirit will not lead us to repudiate all leadership, rather have a life of submission and peace with all men."

What are you responding to brother? Did someone " repudiate all leadership?" Can you show where someone repudiated all leadership as that is quite preposterous and inflammatory. ...........bro Frank

Brother,

I was alluding to the statement you made:

What I have found is some of the most sold out believers who are willing to follow God no matter what and who could no longer stomoch what passes for church in their land and, being led of the Holy Spirit, " came out of her."

---

My thought was "yes" at times God will call a brother to start something new. But in the end the Spirit leads to revive what is there and not to say ALL is wrong. Whitefield did not consider all "systems" or denominations (churches) wrong, he rather was in support of any good churches and movements. He was again closely connected with the calvinistic methodist movement and did support in measure the Moravian movement and others. He was charitable to John Wesley's churches by-in large and had friends and open doors in MANY different christian churches especially in the "new world."

I do see many of God's men like Whitefield that were used in revival usually worked admidst the existing established churches and sought to revive them.

George Fox is an example of something that went outside ALL of them and did not even care to help or work with the puritans (a revival movement in their day) and rather claimed most if not all apostate. He had strong language but God did use his efforts to establish a church system that helped bring many into the fold, The Society of Friends.

Am I being "Too serious " ?

no. hardly. a beautiful encouragement, which is a gift beyond compare.

could you pray that God sends to me co laborers in the ministry of prayer, and that He gives me eyes to recognize them?

much love in Jesus, neil

that you speak of?....and these religious terms?

I don't see them in the Bible.

I've heard of them...George Fox, he's the Quaker, George Whitefield....he preached open air....but what is Calvinist Methodism?

The Moravian's of course I know, Count zinzendorff, yes! I know. Hernhutt, very similar to the Body in Jerusalem, "all things in common"...the 100 year prayer meeting.

"denomination"....NOWHERE mentioned in the Bible, but John 17 is there, and its seems to me, Jesus is saying we all are one as the Father is one, which flies in DIRECT OPPOSITION to a "denominational spirit".

since I don't know these groups, as I have desired to know only "Jesus Christ and Him crucified"...i'll look up them

"Puritan"-----"the Puritans became a major political force in England and came to power as a result of the First English Civil War (1642”“46). After the Restoration of 1660 and the 1662 Uniformity Act, almost all Puritan clergy left the Church of England, some becoming nonconformist ministers. The nature of the movement in England changed radically, although it retained its character for a much longer period in New England."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan

"Calvinism"---I read thru this...and if you make it through, mazel, but again it seems to fly in the face of the Words of Jesus

"Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Luke 18:17

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

George whitefield-"In the early 18th century, slavery was outlawed in Georgia. In 1749, George Whitefield campaigned for its legalisation, claiming that the territory would never be prosperous unless farms were able to use slave labor.[21][page needed] He began his fourth visit to America in 1751 advocating slavery, viewing its re-legalisation in Georgia as necessary to make his plantation profitable.[22] Partly through his campaigns and written pleas to the Georgia Trustees, it was re-legalised in 1751. Whitefield purchased slaves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Whitefield

oh that's lovely.....a filthy man thief.

no wonder the emphasis on "strong leadership"...pictures becoming clearer now.

George Fox-Fox lived in a time of great social upheaval and war. He rebelled against the religious and political authorities by proposing an unusual and uncompromising approach to the Christian faith. He travelled throughout Britain as a dissenting preacher, for which he was often persecuted by the authorities who disapproved of his beliefs.

(ohhh..."persecuted"...good, must have done something right)

"A constant obsession for Fox was the pursuit of "simplicity" in life, meaning humility and the abandonment of luxury, and the short time he spent as a shepherd was important to the formation of this view."

( I feel that way as well in Christ)

"At times he actively sought the company of clergy but found no comfort from them as they seemed unable to help with the matters troubling him." ( I know the feeling well,George)

"He became fascinated by the Bible, which he studied assiduously.[12] He hoped to find among the "English Dissenters" a spiritual understanding absent from the established church but fell out with one group, for example, because he maintained that women had souls:[13]"

(fascinated by the Bible....me too)

HERE IS THE ANSWER TO MY ORIGINAL POST...I found It!!!

"He thought intensely about the Temptation of Christ, which he compared to his own spiritual condition, but drew strength from his conviction that God would support and preserve him.[16] In prayer and meditation he came to a greater understanding of the nature of his faith and what it required from him; this process he called "opening". He also came to what he deemed a deep inner understanding of standard Christian beliefs. Among his ideas were:

*Rituals can be safely ignored, as long as one experiences a true spiritual conversion.

*The qualification for ministry is given by the Holy Spirit, not by ecclesiastical study. This implies that anyone has the right to minister, assuming the Spirit guides them, including women and children.[3]

*God "dwelleth in the hearts of his obedient people": religious experience is not confined to a church building.
Indeed, Fox refused to apply the word "church" to a building, using instead the name "steeple-house", a usage maintained by many Quakers today. Fox would just as soon worship in fields and orchards, believing that God's presence could be felt anywhere.[17]

*Though Fox used the Bible to support his views, Fox reasoned that, because God was within the faithful, believers could follow their own inner guide rather than rely on a strict reading of Scripture or the word of clerics.[3][18]

*Fox also made no clear distinction between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.[3]

"Fox complained to judges about decisions he considered morally wrong, as in his letter on the case of a woman due to be executed for theft.[24] He campaigned against the paying of tithes, which funded the established church and often went into the pockets of absentee landlords or religious colleges far away from the paying parishioners. In his view, as God was everywhere and anyone could preach, the established church was unnecessary and a university qualification irrelevant for a preacher.[3] Conflict with civil authority was inevitable." (indeed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fox

Greg, you wrote.......

I was alluding to the statement you made:

"What I have found is some of the most sold out believers who are willing to follow God no matter what and who could no longer stomoch what passes for church in their land and, being led of the Holy Spirit, " came out of her."

And from that you got a " repudiation of all leadership?" To be honest brother, and this is just an observation, I think you have somewhat of an obsession with " strong leadership."

My statement simply alludes to the fact that in the last several years, I have met and witnessed so many wonderful sold out believers who have left the established church because God led them out. They could no longer stomoch the worldliness or lack of the presence of God. Maybe their particular denomination was embracing homosexuality, or outright worldliness or whatever.

How many millions flowed out of the Catholic church at the time of the reformation? I am sure there were a thousand voices claiming these people were rejecting the strong leadership of the Catholic church. Strong leadership has absolutely no meaning whatsoever if that leadership is not led by and allows the preeminence of Jesus. Minus that, it is just a bunch of power hungry men seeking to control, wanting the limelight and wanting the adoration of men.

Bro Neil is correct, Jesus will bring to pass, before He returns, the fulfillment of His own prophecy in John 17.
And the strong men will not be able to stop that, in fact, the strong men shall be diss-armed.

Noone writes.......

"I don't believe the religious system of our day will ever be revived because it has never truly lived in Jesus only it has never been built according to God's pattern. I believe it is not God breathed, it is man's creation based on OT priest hood, but in God's mercy there have been mercy drops, but there will never be the flood. God will never pour new wine into an old wineskin because he knows what will happen to it." Amen brother..........bro Frank

brother Frank,

Hello brother just wanted to try and clarify what I was stating and will not drag this on but do appreciate your grace and kindness in discussing what I wrote. Towards "strong leadership" here is the full quote of what I wrote with that wording:

My suggestion for the re-wording of the question is that we can see how God's people have assembled over the 2000 years of the Church and that this always included strong leadership. Whether you take the Quakers who in their meetings had open sharing yet as the movement it was strongly organized at times. Moravians, Waldensians, Paulicians, and many more had strong leadership in their movements.

In context what I am meaning by "strong leadership" is a defined leadership that is over others. Meaning a heiachicial submission and leadership of a movement, churches, etc. I suppose my main point is simply there are very few movements, groupings of believers, remnant saints, etc in the history of the church there were not part of a system, group or some form. As another brother shared in the thread there is in the New Testament various church traditions, practices, and ways for believers to operate, qualifications for leadership, etc.

So I am all for what Neil is writing and it is great to think about these things of what God is doing and will do in new movements, new gatherings of believers. My only reason for commenting is to bring to light the current trend of thinking in North America of no leadership in the way leadership has primarily operated for 2000 years in Church History.

My argument was that Whitefield does not represent the structure of church where all share and are on a common platform but rather he promoted a christianity that has defined leaders. My reason also for commenting is I see it as a bad trend to promote to saints that all systems are corrupt or wrong and that the Holy Spirt wants all believers to come out. I am not saying that you believe this fully or Neil for this matter, but the tenor of the discussion does touch on the realm of this type of thinking.

SermonIndex by-in-large represents godly pastors, preachers, prophets that labored in the denominations, groups, systems they were in.

And to again clarify I am not against any new true movement of God and His Spirit which I do believe will be structured in some way (as all are) and in the end become something God will have to pass by and do the "new thing" again.

The protestant / evangelical / anabaptist / etc witness in the world is not the catholic system by any means and is not something to come out of. Though there are local assemblies and some denominations that are apostate that believers should come out of.

"allows the preeminence of Jesus" I am would be interested to understand what you mean by this term because I believe most for instance speakers on SermonIndex would have not allowed for this type of preeminence in their churches, so are they then therefore wrong?

"Bro Neil is correct, Jesus will bring to pass, before He returns, the fulfillment of His own prophecy in John 17. "

I do believe the Lord will do a wonderful purifying of His bride in the end times as He also has done in many other ways and times in history. I do believe John 17 has been fulfilled many times in church history, may God do even more of a work of true unity amongst true believers before the coming of the Lord. Amen.

Hi Greg,

Here is the full quote I was alluding to......

""The holy Spirit will not lead us to repudiate all leadership, rather have a life of submission and peace with all men."

My question was, and it is a specific one, who is calling for a "repudiation of all leadership?" Remember, we have had this discussion many times in public and in private. No one gets to think something and then have those thoughts presented as fact. If you are of the opinion that I or others want to repudiate all leadership, then you should make the charge and stand by it. I have lost count of the times that I have told you that I am not against leadership.

I hope this clarifies and I await your answer brother as to who is repudiating all leadership. Is it a group of people in your opinion, is it individuals, is it I? Brother, could you also share with us what strong local leadership are you submitted to now or in the recent past? ......bro Frank

" repudiate all leadership"

When I was writing that in the context of speaking towards "coming out of them" ie systems of churches in north america. Therefore I was stating that if we are full of the Holy Spirit usually He will lead us to seek peace with men, submit to authorities etc. Instead of "refuse to accept or be associated with" leadership in current churches. But I do agree also there are current denominations and some churches that are apostate, united church for instance in Canada.

Only in rare cases does one have a prophetic call to stand against everything and come out of all churches, ie George Fox had that call from God I believe in England.

All I am trying to share is a balance view of the remnant of how I see it in church history and that it always has leadership like other larger groups.

Love you brother, not trying to be contentious my friend.

I went to sleep last night, just grieved in heart spirit and soul, slept a mere restless 4 or so, woke up, and went right into Acts, with a copy of the book you wrote, dear brother, right beside the Bible.

Searched diligently, made two pages of notes, NOT of whats in my "head", but asking to be filled with Holy Spirit, so that my words are 'salted'....and loving, and meek.

That said, I am in a peculiar situation, as it was only 12 years ago, that God revealed His Son to me and in me...in the flesh, i'm a Hebrew, even as a child, I was never a secular Jew...in name only as an ethnic thing. Never. I was not orthodox, why would I be?....even so young, I knew that the haredi, were not who I was in God.

for a long while, I did not know WHO I was in God, till He brought to the point of the Long Night, and up on that mountain, it was just God and me....no man preached the Gospel to me, as I cried out, alone, "God be with me, please be with me"...over and over....and then I KNEW I had to find the Church, so I asked the only person I trust with such matters, my sons's mother, "Do you know of a church I could go to", since I knew at that point, she was feeling her way to God.

Blessed be the Name of the Lord, that she led me to the church where pastor Ted labored. Ted became mentor, brother, best friend...and from that time on, I NEVER ceased to be in the Word of God. I thank Him for giving me that Holy Hunger...at night, always in secret prayer, and God put in my heart, a hunger for revival, which is how I found this site, first stopping at "fireonthealtar" dot com.

Now, I've written that testimony many times before, and wish not to belabor that, but I might lense things differently, because I NEVER stopped being a Jew. Its just that now, i'm a Jew who follows Jesus, and the problem I have is that when you speak of "2000 years of Church History"...I don't get the "warm and fuzzies" you might.

I don't know if you've read Michael Brown's book, "Blood on our Hands", but the tribe of my flesh, the Jews suffered unimaginable torture from the roman institution, for centuries, then Martin Luther, who started so strong and sadly finished so full of hate, was used by the hitler demoniacs to give "spiritual covering", whilst they burned millions upon millions of Jews...we all know this.

my point being, in the Old Testament, splayed out in all its soul rending sin, is the history of the Jews in the ancient kingdom of Judah and Israel....and each king gets progressively worse, with the exception of a few Godly Kings in Judah, before God used the Babylonians as an instrument of His Wrath...with the exception of Acts, the Early Church...the Church itself has NO Canonized history in the Bible, and it is my contention, that for almost 1700 years, the institutionalized church has largely failed God.

Of course, there have been bright and Shining Examples of The Kingdom of God, and dear saints who labored in the Love and Mercy of the LORD throughout these 1700 years I speak of, but these are mostly the exception rather than the rule....the history is THAT BAD. If I was a Gentile follower of Jesus, I would be ashamed and griefstricken...and as Jew, who follows Jesus, and KNOWS is history, its only the Indwelling Love of the Holy Spirit in me, that will NOT allow the words, or spirit of "hate and loath" of these supposed "christians" into my heart and soul.

So we come to Today, and I know that within a thirty mile radius, there were dozens of churches, many different denominations doing the same old thing, the same old time driven bulletin, but yesterday driven with particular urgency because the Packer game was at noon! oh oh, we cant miss THAT, heaven forbid!....yesterday, my body was drained of all energy and I slept from 11AM to 6PM..its my "thorn".

I've been to quite a few of these churchs, and I don't really want to recount what I've see, and What I haven't seen.

Now what has me, in such grief, is that , in desperation, I made the original post, trying to see, if ANY other saints shared my burden, or vision, and many dear saints responded, essentially saying "yes"...I outlined a simple ecclesiology, akin to worship sharing, and I feel as if ...you, brother Greg, have been the only opposer, right from the jump, implying my very original question is wrong. (KingJimmy was in there right away in opposition, in my sin, I asked him if he would stay off the thread, but then realized my error and asked his forgiveness.)

Brother Greg, there IS Freedom in Christ, and God knows, you are entitled to your opinion, especially in that this is YOUR website, and Praise God, one day God will reveal ALL the Good and True Things that have been engendered by this website.

and yes, there are thousands of sermons on this site, but I've only listened to two of the human vessels of Christ here, Len Ravenhill and Duncan Campbell...I've listened to others, but after 5-10 minutes, if I don't feel the Holy Spirit singing to my soul....I stop, yes, I also listen to a FEW sermons of Ian Paisely and many of Mike Brown's, but that's it.

the three non canonical books that have shaped me are "The Life of Brainerd" and Frank Bartleman's "Azusa Street", which was the first I read, and as I was reading it the first time in 2002, the Holy Spirit agreed with my soaring spirit...that brother Frank Bartlemans testimony was the desire of my heart as well...I posted some of his testimony earlier on this thread.

i'm not even sure, I feel comfortable with the word, "Remnant".....I love "The Way", like we used to title ourselves so many centuries ago....all i'm personally asking God for is to send me or let me find 2 to 5 other saints that are burdened and desperate for revival in this district, this 100 mile by 100 mile land in SW Wis, and are willing to join in constant prayer for God to come down in Power.

as far as leaders? God chooses them.....now,a true leader?...he never has to say, "i'm leader"...its the other saints, as swept along by God who tell him.

that's the way I am led to believe....so God bless you Greg, and Frank, I wish you didn't live so far away, I love you both, in His love and my love, neil

(please forgive me, I had to post this again, for latecomers who don't want to "wade" thru 44 posts...my heart sings when I read this, what happened at 312 Azusa Street April/June 1906 in a plain old barnlike former Methodist church....this testimony just thrills my spirit)

=====================================================

"Brother Seymour was recognized as the nominal leader in charge. But we had no pope or hierarchy. We were "brethren.” We had no human program. The Lord Himself was leading. We had no priest class, nor priest craft. These things have come in later, with the apostatizing of the movement. We did not even have a platform or pulpit in the beginning. All were on a level. The ministers were servants, according to the true meaning of the word. We did not honor men for their advantage, in means or education, but rather for their God-given "gifts” He set the members in the "body.” Now” A wonderful and horrible thing is come to pass in the land. The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and My people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof.” ”“Jer. 5:30, 31. Also "AS for my people, children are their oppressors (sometimes grown up ones), and women rule over them.”
- Isa 3:12.

Brother Seymour generally sat behind two empty shoeboxes, one on top of the other. He usually kept his head inside the top one during the meeting, in prayer. There was no pride there. The services ran almost continuously. Seeking souls could be found under the power almost any hour, night and day. The place was never closed nor empty. The people came to meet God. He was always there. Hence a continuous meeting. The meeting did not depend on the human leader. God’s presences become more and more wonderful. In that old building, with its low rafters and bare floors, God took strong men and women to pieces, and put them together again, for His glory. It was a tremendous overhauling process. Pride and self-assertion, self-importance and self-esteem, could not survive there. The religious ego preaches its own funeral sermon quickly.

No subjects or sermons were announced ahead of time, and no special speakers for such an hour. No one knew what might be coming, What God would do. All was spontaneous, ordered of the Spirit. We wanted to hear from God, through whoever he might speak. We had no "respect of persons” The rich and educated were the dame as the poor and ignorant, and found a much harder death to die. We only recognized God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self-only recognized opinionated. Those were Holy Ghost meetings, led of the Lord. It had to start in the poor surroundings, God. All were equal. No flesh might glory in His presence. He could not use the self- to keep out the selfish, human element. All came down in humility together, at His feet. They all looked alike, and had all things in common in that sense at least. The rafters were low, the tall must come down. By the time they got to "Azusa” they were humbled, ready for the blessing. The food was thus placed for the lambs, not for giraffes. All could reach it.

We were delivered right there from ecclesiastical hierarchism and abuse. We wanted God. When we first reached the meeting we avoided as much as possible human contact and greeting. We wanted to meet God first. We got our head under some bench in the corner in prayer, and met men only in the Spirit, knowing them "after the flesh” no more. The meetings started themselves, spontaneously, in testimony, praise and worship. The testimonies were never hurried by a call for "popcorn.” We had no prearranged programmed to be jammed through the time. Our time was the Lord’s. We had real testimonies from fresh heart-experience. Otherwise, the shorter the testimonies, the better. A dozen might be on their feet at one time, trembling under the mighty power of god. We did not have to get our cur from some leader. And we were free from lawlessness. We were shut up to God in prayer in the meetings, our minds on Him. All obeyed God, in meekness and humility. In honor we "preferred one another.” The Lord was liable to burst through any one. We prayed for this continually. Some one would finally get up anointed for the message. All seemed to recognize this and gave way. It might be a child, a woman, or a man. It might be from the back seat, or from the front. It made no difference. We rejoiced that God was working. No one wished to show himself. We thought only of obeying God.

In fact there was an atmosphere of God there that forbade any one but a fool attempting to put himself forward without the real anointing. And such did not last long. The Spirit, from the throne controlled the meetings. Those were truly wonderful days. I often said that I would rather live six months at that time than fifty years of ordinary life. But God is just the same today. Only we have changed.

Some one might be speaking. Suddenly the Spirit would fall upon the congregation. God himself would give the altar call. Men would fall all over the house, like the slain in battle, or rush for the altar en masse, to seek God. The scene often resembled a forest of fallen trees. Such a scene cannot be imitated. I never saw an altar call given in those early days. God himself would call them. And the preacher knew when to quit. When He spoke we all obeyed. It seemed a fearful thing to hinder or grieve the Spirit. The whole place was steeped in prayer, God was in His holy temple. It was for man to keep silent. The shekinah glory rested there. In fact some claim to have seen the glory by night over the building. I do not doubt it. I have stopped more than once within two blocks of the place and prayed for strength before I dared to go on. The presence of the Lord was so real.

Presumptuous men would sometimes come among us. Especially preachers who would try to spread themselves, in self-opinionating. But their effort was short lived. The breath would be taken from them. Their minds would wander, their brains reel. Things would turn black before their eyes. They could not go on. I never saw one get by with it in those days. They were up against God. No one cut them off. We simply prayed. The Holy Spirit did the rest. We wanted the Spirit to control. He wound them up in short order. They were carried out dead, spiritually speaking. They generally bit the dust in humility, going through the process we had all gone through. In other words they died out, came to see themselves in all their weakness, then in childlike humility and confession were taken up of God, transformed through the mighty "baptism” in the Spirit. The "old man” died with all his pride, arrogancy and good works. In my own case I came to abhor myself. I begged the Lord to drop a curtain so close behind me on my past that it would hit my heels. He told me to forget every good deed as though it had never occurred, as soon as it was accomplished anything for Him, lest my good works become a snare to me.

We saw some wonderful things in those days. Even very good men came to abhor themselves in the clearer light of God. The preachers died the hardest. But when God got through with them they gladly turned a new page and chapter. That was one reason they fought so hard. Death is not at all a pleasant experience. And strong men die hard."

Brother Neil,

I am not in opposition, I have just been deeply burdened and praying for saints to be connected in fellowship with each other and do see unhealthyness in brethren being encouraged to gather apart from accountability, leadership that is ordained of God. There are measures that God will have saints gather in small 2-3 gatherings but that is just a temporary measure as growth must happen and leadership will be given of God.

Again it is a healthy thing to discuss these things, I feel alot of point you have raised and other brethren are encouraging and inspiring to saints.

God bless you my friend. I am not against you or others in this thread. I love you in Christ Jesus.

Bro Greg you write......

" All I am trying to share is a balance view of the remnant of how I see it in church history and that it always has leadership like other larger groups. Love you brother, not trying to be contentious my friend."

There is no contention bro, at least on my part, I am looking for clarification. Words are important just as accusations are, if voiced, they must be explained. So my question would be, what are you trying to balance? What individual or groups are saying or teaching repudiation of all leadership? We have to be careful not to set up straw men that simply suit our own thoughts. If there is a group or individuals who repudiate all leadership, I for one would certainly like to know that, I personally have never met or even known of any group or individuals who repudiates all leadership............bro Frank

Brother,

We are simply speaking over each other. I asked if you could define for me what you meant by "preemience" and also I would be interested to hear your view of Christ as "Head" in the Church and what that practically means for a gathering of believers as the Church.

The thinking that expresses the idea that Jesus is pastor is right and a blessing, of course He is present in the Church gathering and is helping all to speak, lead, understand etc. Yet it also is an over simplification to say Jesus is Pastor alone, or He is preemient therefore all are equal and we just need to look to Jesus in a meeting.

I see in the New Testament clear defined leaders, qualifications, giftings to be shared in meetings by certain individuals more then others. The 1 pastor model again almost all preachers on the website are in this model, as well as many of the remnant groups in history. I see that not as a problem at all. I am trying to balance and simple speak for the testimony of saints on SermonIndex and an interepretation of Scripture that speaks of brethren being leaders in the body of Christ. That Jesus is Head of the Church does not mean every gathering of saints all share as they feel led of the Lord. You cannot find that in Church History as the standard or way the Church has to operate.

Again "repudiation of all leadership" means not that of course there are giftings in the body but rather it is the mentality that no 1 brother or gifting should rule or rather properly (serve) above others. Repudiation of the idea of any brother to be above the other brethren. But in Church history and the Scriptures we simply find leaders of all types of groups of saints who were above them, looked to, respected and saints would obey them.

Frank Viola for instance rejects most if not all leadership of pastors (shepherds) over God's flock, and see's leadership as more of some individuals that to sometimes help against false doctrine but primarily just allow each meeting to have everyone share. Thus taking accountability, and the office of Deacon, Elder to be greatly minimized.

i am trying to speak generally as possible to ensure we understand each other brother and not get lost in details.

My concern or rather burden is there needs to be an encouragement to saints who are out of churches, having a hard time finding a healthy fellowship not to overact where they will never be able to except authority over them.

Brother,

I am certainly not speaking over you. If you reply to a brothers post and say that you are againtst repudiation of all leadership, at the very best, you are trying to imply, and of course you have already made that charge to me privately, that I am against all leadership. This is simply a false implication on this thread. As you know, I have told you privately when you have charged me with that, that this is simply not correct. You must take me at my word brother or show, by my actions, how my word is not true.

You do not encourage saints who are out of churches by accusing them of repudiating all leadership, this in fact only adds condemnation to those who have struggled mightily with their position. That is why I asked for your own example of who you submit to locally? If you do not or have found it impossible to find such leadership, then this should increase your passion for like-minded brothers and sisters across the globe. Let us truly encourage the saints that God has called out.

This was a simple enough thread with a simple enough question. It was a good question. If there was good Godly leadership in churches across America and the globe, people would not be leaving in droves because of worldliness and false teaching. The article you just put up by brother Steve. Steve writes in that article...........

"Beloved, you and I are witnessing the same events going on around us. I am convinced that we are in the beginning stages of the great falling away right now. The question is whether we have the power of observation to see these end time prophecies unfolding. Considering the "world of distortion” in which we live, perhaps an even greater question we should ask ourselves is if we really do have a "love of the truth so as to be saved.”

Indeed. Lovers of the truth more than lovers of convention or institution. When the world falls away, shall we fall away with it? Or, shall we stand, even if we have to stand alone?...............bro Frank

You do not encourage saints who are out of churches by accusing them of repudiating all leadership, this in fact only adds condemnation to those who have struggled mightily with their position. That is why I asked for your own example of who you submit to locally? If you do not or have found it impossible to find such leadership, then this should increase your passion for like-minded brothers and sisters across the globe. Let us truly encourage the saints that God has called out.

Brother, I was sharing my thoughts on the remnant as others were in this thread. The inference was that Jesus is Pastor and therefore that is sufficient, therefore that is a repudiation of hierarchal leadership of any kind except the Lord Himself. I just do not see that as healthy, it happens in smaller settings but is not the path of the Church how it functions in the New Testament.

Towards standing alone, I will say God by His grace could allow a brother to stand alone but really in the end we need each other and also to submit to others in the body of Christ. Self-deception is something NONE of us are prone to brother myself greatly included.

We have been gladly submitting to Eldership of 2 brethren at a Mennonite fellowship we have been attending.

I have talked with you as a brother and a friend on this issue privately in response to the writings on your blog on this tenor.

I am simply offering my view and balance to the thread.

Dear brother Neil,
What a great thread, thank you so much for starting this!!!

What would it look like? I think that everything you have written so far and especially what you have posted from Frank Bartleman is 100% spot on...my spirit is soaring with yours!!! What you have been writing and intimating is what I also agree it would look like.

What it would probably not look like is openly arguing, that would be done privately...but as Kermit the Frog says, "but that's none of my business" :))

I too long for the truth and I long for a pure expression of the body of Christ. I don't cast the blame on anyone else for this though, but on me. How can I point the finger at leaders or others in the church when I am a part of the church myself? I must not become sick and tired of the church before I am sick and tired of me. A recurring theme on my facebook page for the past several weeks has been that I want, no...NEED a fresh baptism of the Holy Spirit and Fire.

In the past I have been involved in spirited discussions over the meaning and application of the references to the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts. I was really trying hard to get my theology right particularly when it came to the squirly passages where it is vague as to what is really happening to the believers. Were they being born again or were they having a secondary "encounter" or infilling with the Holy Spirit, subsequent to them previously getting born again??? But you know what, by the time it was all over I was no less clear about any of it, but more importantly I was no more filled with the Holy Spirit!!!

So, where I am at right now is that I am done with the debate, the bible study and the back and forth over the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Because the HOLY SPIRIT is not a doctrine but a PERSON!!!

I have no desire to enter the fray about cessationism vs continuationism. I just want the HIM-ism. I just want to be filled with Him...with the Holy Spirit. I don't want to just keep reading about the early church and the experience of others in church history...for the rest of my life...I want Him to fill and take over my own life as well!!!

And I am pretty certain that the fulfillment of this precious promise of God for me is not going to become any more of a reality by me continuing to study and go over and over these truths, ad infinitum. I am done with the searching out of words on paper, I want to search out His heart and fall "heart first" into His glorious fire and be absolutely consumed with Him, not just His words. This is the road that I am on...right now...and I ask that you all pray for me as I will for you!

Thank you for listening to my long ramblings, I am with you brother, all the way and if I was able to I would dog sled out to your place and help you chop that firewood!!!

Why would we want to set it as our example? The first "church" only truly lasted for what...one century maybe.... then it totally took the road of a man made system.

Once again, there were mercy drops within in it, but it has mainly been a dead system.

I am just curious brother how you come to that conclusion? How many churches have you visited? How many have you read in Church History?

It is no question the Catholic system during the dark ages caused little light to shine for the Gospel in the world. Yet the 2000 years of the Church is replete with examples of many movements of God that were healthy.

Is there any christian group that is "right" or are "all" wrong?

Noone writes..........

"Until we take our eyes off of history & man and consider our ways and solely plant them on Jesus we will never see John 14:12 or Haggai 2:9 or John 17.Jesus only"

Amen...........bro Frank

and right back, I amen, and say with a pure loving heart, May God bless you and your growing clan RICHLY, and proclaim my love in Messiah Jesus for you, intensely and with passion. even though its over fiber optic cables, we practically GREW UP together in these last 12 years, all the things we been thru in this Most Holy Faith.

This website is in incredible thing in Jesus....its global, "crusader" who gave me his hand in love is from Australia...this website for all these years NEVER went "off the rails" into apostasy or whatever weirdness there is, springing off the Body. Thank God.

But hear me, O beloved brother...time IS SHORT, a storm is coming, and these babylonians have a "kill switch" for the internet...so if we make the break from the "IC", time is of the essence.

I have already made the break in my heart. Oh yes, I will go to IC churches around here, when the LORD commands, with NO pre-judgement....but its always the same pro forma, by the numbers denominational IC....and when I get the Leading ,,,that ...maybe the pastor is just stuck, I write him a very sweet letter, asking if he could see his way to instituting a ONCE a week intercessory prayer meeting.

to date, I have not received a reply from any of them.

my county has only 20,000 souls, all the surrounding counties, similar size....I pray to God, please send me or let me meet 2 to 5 souls...maybe i'm not praying hard enough. Anyone who reads this , is in SW Wis, the LORD leads you, lets get in touch.

Brother Greg, what i'm trying to say is this, you have labored and NOW, you have an intense Holy Ghost bully pulpit at your disposal....time is short, my dear brother, pray on this....I implore thee....I have much more to say, but I want to read what you and our beloved Frank said.

Saints! I implore all who read this, wait on the LORD, seek Him, and see if He imparts the same urgency I feel, that time is short, and we must come out of the babylon we find ourselves in.

remember, Our Lord Jesus was born in a manger, not in the coffee/"fellowship" room of a megachurch.

in Jesus love, neil

let me say this first, everything I wrote in my prior post stands, I love you, unconditionally. when I love, I love, period.

but heaven help you if you lie to me, and you did. you said you were not in opposition to me, yet you write this to my brother Frank:

Yet it also is an over simplification to say Jesus is Pastor alone, or He is preemient therefore all are equal and we just need to look to Jesus in a meeting.

"over simplification"?...One time God allowed me to witness His Son, our Messiah, Pastor a meeting, I was there, I have testified to this meeting many times and ALL WERE EQUAL.

and all shared as Led by the Holy Spirit, yet you write...to Frank, not to me.

That Jesus is Head of the Church does not mean every gathering of saints all share as they feel led of the Lord. You cannot find that in Church History as the standard or way the Church has to operate.

and you don't oppose the Vision God has laid on my heart?....even to the point where you not so subtly inject FRANK VIOLA in this! ....just terrible Greg.....Frank Viola?

that you even bring his name into this thread....BUT, its YOUR website, but the thing that has grieved me the most is NOT the apparent opposition you show to what the Lord has laid on my heart...but the way you addressed the poster "no one" with spiritual bullying, "no one" wrote"

Why would we want to set it as our example? The first "church" only truly lasted for what...one century maybe.... then it totally took the road of a man made system.

Once again, there were mercy drops within in it, but it has mainly been a dead system.

to which you responded

I am just curious brother how you come to that conclusion? How many churches have you visited? How many have you read in Church History?

to me that underlines, how dark and treacherous the "Leader" can be....basically saying, "you know nothing, I know more than you"....just bully tactics and spiritual tyranny.

Grace dictates you repent and ask forgiveness from that dear man.

I love listening to your "long ramblings"....I'm kinda tuckered out and disillusioned by some of the stuff I been reading and responding to....could I write you tomorrow morning after a cup of coffee, I got a story and testimony you and "noone" might want to hear?

its about the time God allowed me to SEE the Template of the Meeting where Jesus is Pastor. God bless you both, sleep well brothers, neil

Brother,

I am sorry you feel this way Neil. I was just in the beginning trying to write in a way that would share a few concerns over meetings where all share and are equal. I love you unconditionally and I am sorry that me and frank got too much into our discussion. I do feel personally burdened on this topic with the saints and have seen too much of the problem side of some of the things you were alluding to.

So I am not opposing you brother, I just have genuine concerns and feel the gathering of the Church is a Holy thing and something with alot of Biblical directives to help us.

Towards "none" I felt the brother was making "large" statements and I simply wanted to know how deeply he felt about the issue and he answered clearly to me that he sees the entire protestant church and bad as the Catholic system. That type of thinking I have no problem to challenge and ask more questions because I do not want young brethren to be influenced to think that way unless it is valid and right. I have concerns with that type of thinking also.

Again we are writing things that will influence others. I love you brother.

Absolutely brother Neil, but if I may I really think you are misunderstanding my brother Greg and I would go so far as to say that perhaps these kind of tricky conversations are best had face to face around a campfire over a cup of coffee.

The reason I say this is because it is really easy to misunderstand and then misrepresent a brothers heart. Take the reference to Frank Viola for example. He is just as much a brother in Christ as you or I or any number of people. I do not agree with his strange theories of course but I will allow him grace to do what ever he feels the Lord is calling him to, just as I do for you and for brother Greg. The only reason that Greg raised the issue of Frank Viola is because Frank has a very anti-leadership stance of which I am sure you are well aware. Those who have become caught up in his teachings and the movement (as I was) end up becoming very confused and it just gets all weird and awkward in some cases.

If I may, I believe what brother Greg is saying is that there is room, there is grace with the Lord for the cat to be skun a number of ways. The Lord is building His church and winning His people to Himself regardless of the messes we make of our ideas and movements and church structures and models. In the end He is Lord and will accomplish His purposes. I guess what I am saying is that as I have gotten older I have asked for the Lord to teach me His ways, to show me His heart. In the past I just wanted to call down fire on anyone or anything that I didn't agree with, that didn't sit well with me. But if you will recall, when the disciples tried this, the account of Jesus reaction is quite hilarious, "..but Jesus rebuked them..." Wow. I can imagine a scene of Him taking them behind the woodshed. Personally over the last 12 months this is what the Lord has been doing in me...rebuking me for my attitude towards other servants of God.

I personally have been involved in just about every kind of "church" expression except probably the mennonite and hudderite kinds of communities, but I am game if the Lord is game, lol:) Anyway, I guess where I am coming from is that I have a certain ideal in my head that I think is the "perfect" way and everytime I discover a church expression that does not align itself to my way of thinking then I invariably become dissallusioned and move on. In the early days I usually became offended and had an attitude about the group that I was leaving. This was wrong and immature.

Today, I hope and pray that I can be more gracious and Christlike and bless them that are sincere in the way they are serving the Lord. They are serving Christ with what light they have received. It is not my place to criticize and look down my nose at them and pretend that I have something better. Thats what I was trying to say in my earlier post...I have nothing better lol. But thats ok I am not in dispair, in fact I am growing ever and ever more hopeful that the Lord is going to bring about a massive move on my life and that of my family members. We all want the purity and simplicity and Christ led movement of the early church but at the same time we are not prepared to CONSECRATE ourselves as they did in the upper room. We want the fire of Pentecost but without the COST! I am speaking of myself and my family now. This is where we left off last night in our little huddle as we sought the Lord. We ended the night listening to a part of the message from Leonard Ravenhill "The Judgement Seat of Christ". We were all stirred and convicted to consecrate oursleves afresh unto the Lord.

We left off with this scripture that I leave with all of us here on this board..."Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow the Lord will do a wonder in your midst..." Joshua 3:5

Bottom line here and I pray very much that you will not be offended by this but I love you and yet I don't know you at all, I love your hunger and your passion for Christ, it is such a blessing and an inpsiration to all of us...but I would pray that you do not read too deeply into what people are saying about this subject of leadership. It is a distraction of the enemy. There is actually a gift of leadership that Paul speaks of and the "leaders are to lead diligently". What we have seen so very often however is UN-diligent leadership. What brother Greg is suggesting is that there is a place for "Dead Men" to be placed as the Lord desires to help Him build His church. They are meant for a specific purpose as are all other members of the body and once that purpose is done then they must GET OUT OF THE WAY.

That right there is one of the most difficult thing facing the body of Christ today...spirit-filled-dead-men-leaders, who can be used of God but at the same time slip in and out of the shadows as the Spirit leads them. I believe the best explanation of this was your own posting from Bartleman's description:

"Brother Seymour was RECOGNIZED as the nominal LEADER IN CHARGE in charge. But we had no pope or hierarchy. We were "brethren.” We had no human program. The Lord Himself was leading."

This is the apparent oxymoron..."recognized leaders of a leaderless movement"...lol!

Only the Holy Spirit can produce such dead men for such a task as befitting what happened in Los Angeles over 100 years ago and He will again, I believe...very soon. Only the Lord can raise up such men and woman to birth such movements. But that is all they are, just broken vessels who bring the "baby" forth, but they are not the "baby" and they don't even really nurture the "baby". All that is done by the Holy Spirit through the many and various members of the Lords body.

Again my befuddled ramblings may have unravelled any good thoughts that I might have made, and if so please forgive me and lets just agree to one day meet up and figure it all out over a coffee! I do believe however that we can all agree on the spirit of what you have been articulating in your opening post and subsequent comments. And it is so encouraging to read many others adding their points of view as well...yet the basic remains the same, we want to see the Lord move and truly guide and shepherd His people, the reality is though that we are probably not going to figure out EXACTLY what this looks like until one day we find ourselves right in the middle of it and we all say, "aaaahhhh, so this is what it looks like".

in all transparency, I felt no peace after my "hasty" and ill'spoke' letter.

How could I?....even though geographic distance separates us, for 12 years now, the Lord has bound us together in the Love of Messiah, and this Majestic Ministry of reconciliation. God knows I love you!...and together we love Jesus. Therefore we have a unity we simply must embrace in front of the saints. Please forgive how I strident I get at at times.

this statement you made gave me greater understanding:

I do feel personally burdened on this topic with the saints and have seen too much of the problem side of some of the things you were alluding to.

I understand fully, and in Truth. The original post I made, I pray you know in your spirit, I made ONLY after much prayer, pondering, transacting business with the Lord, I didn't just flip it off, in the vain imaginations of the mind, or self ego.

you also wrote:

I just have genuine concerns and feel the gathering of the Church is a Holy thing and something with alot of Biblical directives to help us.

again, I understand and am in agreement, as well as your concluding codicil:

Again we are writing things that will influence others. I love you brother.

I love you too my dear brother, neil

Beloved, that was a wise post you made, and I received that Word. God bless you , saint who publishes peace.

I saw that thread about the tragic story of that dear woman's murder, and the demoniac who did...and I want you to know, I said "amen" in my soul. The primary reason I didn't "chime in", is that these i'm very leery about speaking on any 2nd Amendment issues, as I feel so strongly about this Right, and might say things that aint prudent, get what i'm saying?

in short, you and I would have a pretty good time on this porch, just shooting the breeze, talking, praying, pondering, laughing.

I was going to tell you a testimony, about one meeting in a widows house with thirty saints, in a God forsaken canyon just outside Los Angeles, but my spirit isn't right this morning to speak what I saw, that Wonderful Day....I want my testimony to be RIGHT. God willing, in this thread, I will tell you about that Day, I witnessed the Lord Jesus Pastor a meeting, that even to this day, the saints that were there still talk about as "the best meeting" they ever been to. I will show you a picture now of one of the elements that happened on that day:

http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_e6282c70-bb69-5c53-b667-7920a324d3b0.html

read the article real careful like....a 300 ton boulder, the man who drowned in the creek, after a drunken dare, was a soul that my brother had been ministering to for months, and trying to help with not only resource, but speaking the Words of Life in Jesus Christ to him. His father, a very stormy soul, yet one who professed Jesus, was used many times to disrupt the small intercessory open prayer meeting we used to have on Thursday, before the "church" board, booted us out. They booted us out, because they booted the Godly pastor there out, but that pastor, a dear friend, erred, and took them to "court", against the pleas of many of us, on the basis of 1st Cor 6.

That Sunday Meeting, held in a Godly widow's house, Mother Mimi, who is with the Lord now, was my brothers last meeting there as him and his family, were headed out into the 10/40 window to the mission field.

so that's the backdrop, and i'll fill in the rest of the testimony when my spirit is right.

Now the firewood IS sawed up, and yesterday I got 8/10ths of the dead red elm bucketed up on the porch. You see, I take the tractor, its got a bucket,the wood is on my "up" pasture, and I load the bucket, bring it to the porch, where I removed some railing, and very careful "lay" on the deck...cant dump it, I'll just tear up the porch and we don't want THAT.

now my body's kinda broken, but the Lord gives me the strength....what might take a 25 year old, 15 minutes to do, takes me an hour...so I gotten out there and finish up.

I want to leave you with a song, its not a worship song, but its not ungodly...at all. I think you'll appreciate it, I PRAY Greg doesn't get cross with me...I hope HE likes it!

God bless you all, neil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0sYnro_3Rc

Thanks for the reply brother Neil...will respond fully tonight after work!

Neil writes to Mark,

"in short, you and I would have a pretty good time on this porch, just shooting the breeze, talking, praying, pondering, laughing."

The breeze would probably not the only thing that was getting shot :) I want to pick up on bro Neil talking about such meetings where Jesus was Pastoring through His Holy Spirit. Just this year, back in March, we had a gathering of the saints, brother Mark was there. One of the saints, a seasoned Pastor and a Biblical scholar from South Africa but pastoring in Los Angeles , later reported that is was one of the highlights of his Christian walk.

In those meetings, which were lengthy, typically 9am to 7pm, there was no agenda and no " recognised leader. I think that word recognized is important. It did not mean there was no leaders or leadership, it meant there was no recognized leader. We prayed, we studied Scripture, we discussed and we gathered round and prayed for individuals. I might add that most were fasting so there was no real need to break or organize food and so on. If the saints could do that for 8-10 hours a day, over three days, then meetings that last a mere hour or so would be a breeze. Have we seen anything like it before? Yes, you could find examples of it in history. Has the need ever been greater? I would argue no.

Greg just posted a piece by Steve Gallagher, a good post, where he talks about his belief that we are witnessing the beginning of the great falling away. I agree but I might add that I believe that we are further down that road than many imagine. Point being, we are in a time and place in history that no men have witnessed for the last 2000 years. Knowledge and travel being greatly increased, an ever smaller world in terms of awareness and knowledge of each other. The systems are coming together, they are coalessing. The tolerance of the world for genuine Christianity is running out.

Jesus is coming and the enemy knows it and his time is short and woe to the world because of it. Right has become wrong in a way that it has never been before, denominations and institutions are being swept up into this great darkness. In short, there is a desperate need for saints meeting with Jesus as pastor. It should always have been that way, but now the time is short. I want to encourage the remnant saints, since that s the title of the thread. Find at least two or three others who are lovers of the truth and meet together. This is church and this is part of the Church. It is this love for the truth and this willingness to stand against error that will cause you to be " endure to the end," to be an " overcomer." .................bro Frank

My beloved Mark,

I told you I wanted to testify about one meeting in a house, where my brother Rob and I were given leave by God, to worship Him, with Jesus as Pastor:

I thought it good to be precise, I pray this edifies you, as well as other saints here at SI:

when I came to Walk with Jesus, I was led to an AoG church 30 miles from my house trailer in a hell bound canyon outside Los Angeles called Topanga.

Topanga was ground zero in the "summer of love" 1967, and very hippy, very 'new age'...and never really what I am, but the allure for me in 1989, was that you drove 7 miles up the coast, turned north into Topanga, and it was rural!

I've always preferred to live rural, like I do now, Blessed be the Name! serious, cities are not for me.

Now fast forward 13 years, God was pleased to crush me, and reveal His Son to me and in me in a house trailer on a lonely horse ranch, and as I said I "sat under the feet" of my mentor Pastor Ted, at the AoG church 30 miles away.

in Topanga there was ONE "church", and it was right down the mountain from the horse ranch, a mile down the road, and early in my walk on a Wednesday, before I drove to the Wednesday meeting 30 miles away, I stopped at the Topanga church to visit with the pastor , a dear sweet Godly pastor by the name of Bob. we had a wonderful chat, he like Ted was a few years older than me, i'm easy to talk to I guess, he described the vision he had for the church, and I know he desired that I join the Work. I asked him if I could tarry at the Altar for a bit. "of course"

so I went to the altar, got down on my knees to talk to God, asked him, "why don't I go to this Wednesday night meeting HERE...in Topanga?..this church is so close, I could practically fall out of bed....and go to Church"

The LORD said to me, CLEAR AS A BELL, "You've been doing that your whole life, just falling out of bed and into things...GO TO HOPE!"

Hope was the name of the church 30 miles away, and I meekly obeyed the Master. I was afraid NOT to obey, there was Something in the LORD'S Tone.

(this part of the testimony I want to make short, because its the bad part, of what happened to that church in Topanga, and I want to get to the testimony of that ONE Meeting, where God gave me a glimpse of the template of Worship Sharing with Jesus Pastoring)

The Topanga church was very unhealthy, it was run by a board of mostly horsey set women, wealthy, and I believe it was very slickly set up as a tax dodge....because Pastor Bob wanted a full gospel church...long story short, he lasted MAYBE a year and a half there.

during that year and a half, I met a DEAR brother in the LORD, Rob, my age, his parents were YWAM honcho's, he was an architect, and we bonded in the Holy Spirit. (Today Rob is in the 10/40 window as a "tentmaker"...i'm being vague for security concerns...I miss him)

Rob and I were burdened of prayer, to pray, intercessory. The whole canyon was going to hell, there was all sorts of pagan new agery, there were actual satanic "covens" in the canyon.......a terrible environment for any follower of Jesus, but its the Power of the Lord within us, so it was easy to be a witness, and to Love Jesus without demonic oppression.

So we asked pastor Bob if he was "up" for having a Thursday night intercessory prayer at that building called a church.

No problem, he was one with us...and we had usually five to six saints, the pastor, Rob and me, dear Mother Mimi, a Godly widow, who is now with Lord, and a dear man named Greg.

and we started to pray. (of course no one on the board showed up, but that was okay with me, because the devil was up in their clothing)

However, as I anointed that carpet with hot tears, and we prayed for individual souls, or where ever the Spirit led....you should have witnessed what the devil did to disrupt the Work...slewfoot would actually send in, two or unstable individuals to try and derail the train of Holy Ghost prayer, and I don't even want to recount these sad antics. except to say we prayed thru this nonsense.

so then Pastor Bob got bounced, and I love Pastor Bob, but he did an unadvised and counseled against thing...he sued the church board...the suit lasted for years, and cost him MUCH.

15 to 30 saints left with him to worship at Mother Mimi's house. As I was placed by God 30 miles away, sitting under Ted's mentorship, that is where I stayed, but the Thursday evening prayer night continued at Mother Mimi's.

This work was Precious, if I could write of all the good and pure Things that happened on those Thursday evenings, this post would be too long. Oh my brother, we truly were caught up in high places with God, I soaked that carpet also with my tears. In my humble experience there is no more precious and anointed meeting, then the prayer meeting,when the saints are transacting serious Business with the Lord.

Time goes by, Rob the architect and I would pray privately, and during one of these day long prayer meetings (and fasting) I was attacked by unholy forces....we had started at 8 AM, intending to pray until dark, but at 11AM, suddenly it felt as thru something had threw a spear thru my stomach. At first I thought it was just hunger pangs and praised God that I could "suffer" for the Name, but as time went by, the pain ramped up seriously, and I HAD to lay in my bed...it was so bad, I was groaning in pain, this was 1 PM, after a while Rob left, I was alone...from 2 to 6PM, just groaning as the pain got greater, suddenly I heard the Lord tell me, "neil, go to the hospital NOW"...I was dying.

I called my son's mother to pick me up, I could barely walk to the car, and in the car, I couldn't stop groaning in pain. It felt I had a spear in my belly, but I felt an odd sense of ease, This is the Lord at work...death of body is not bad. my son and his mother were very frightened, i'm sad to say. Pastor Ted met us at the ER, they had to pump, morphine, Demerol, and then finally dilaudid before the pain receded. Pastor stayed with me in that ER from 8PM to 4AM ,when they admitted me,as they didn't "know" what was wrong, finally deciding it was a herniated umbilical area. I was in hospital for six days.

forgive this diversion, but I wrote about it, because it was that day, that discouraged my brother Rob's hope for the evangelization of this hellish canyon, as I was always stout and ready for anything...suddenly laid low by a foul spirit during a prayer session. He announced to me, that he and the family were called to the 10/40 window, and his last meeting at Mother Mimi's house church was 9 Jan 2005, sunday.

of course I was more than sad, but the Spirit of Jesus rules our lives, and I would never nay say that, God forbid.

I had been given visions of this meeting and visions of a different meeting from the Lord, and He put it in my heart to wash my brothers feet, so I called Rob and told him what the Lord laid on my heart, and his heart was filled with joy. I told Rob I was being LED in that direction, but only if God the Holy Ghost gave me leave to do so, would I wash his feet during that meeting.

in the event God said yes, I bought the "implements", one of those large black plastic paint trays, 4 feet long, 3 feet wide, and a foot deep, I bought a dozen cotton hand towels, a dozen cotton larger towels, two half gallon pitchers, and different bottles of sweet smelling liquid soap, lavender,lilac, etc....GOOD soap.

then out of submission, I called Pastor Bob where God was leading me, in regards to possibly washing Rob's feet, should the Holy Spirit give me leave.

Bob's response was to say that he would do a "teaching" on foot washing first. My heart dropped, as I didn't even KNOW if I was to be given release to wash my brothers feet. but I said nothing. When I told Rob what Pastor Bob said, Rob was equally grieved, as he knew what my burden was. You have to remember that at this time, Pastor Bob was involved in a very public lawsuit against the "church" that had fired him....for nothing...they even had hired private security guards. It was a terrible witness, and the ungodly were snickering in their sleeves.

Now we loved Bob as a brother, but more than a few, myself included, begged him previously on the basis of 1st Cor 6, NOT to sue, but to bear the slap, walk away. He didn't listen and to date, has never pastored another church. Bob is the sweetest, most loving saint, you'd ever want to meet, but was lured into this folly.

Now, on the night of Saturday 8 Jan 2005, Topanga was hit by a deluge of rain and wind...what was a dry creek bed, turned into a raging torrent. One luckless soul, a thirty something alcoholic that Rob had been ministered to, drowned in an alcohol fueled dare behind one of the two hell hole bars that night.

as I sat in my house trailer that night, my heart was falling as I thought we would be blessed to get even five souls to show up at Mother Mimi's,as the very hills were collapsing in waves of mud.

I woke up Sunday morning, got the foot washing implements, my Bible, and walked to my car, the rain was a torrent, the wind whipping at 30 mph. it took me 30 minutes to drive the two miles to Mother Mimi's as I had to navigate past the mud slides on my right, and the raging waters of a once dry creekbed.

when I drove into Mimi's driveway, my heart leapt as over 15 cars crowded around her house...I went inside, to be greeted by 30 of my brothers and sisters...and told Pastor Bob wasn't here yet and they were worried. there is only one way into the canyon,and ten minutes before he made his way into the canyon, something happened....here it is, what happened:

http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_e6282c70-bb69-5c53-b667-7920a324d3b0.html

a 300 ton boulder fell on this road ten minutes before Pastor Bob drove up.

the saints were waiting, and waiting...we did not know this boulder had fell. God was all over me, I stood, and asked the saints if I may speak?....yes.

I said that we were going in a new direction as led by the Lord, I would prayfully ask Jesus to Pastor this meeting, and described the meeting to take place: worship sharing, where all may speak unto the others and the Lord. If you have a song, a Bit of Scripture, a praise report, a testimony, a burden of prayer...speak it, but only two light handed "rules"...only one person speaks at a time, and you may speak twice, only after all have had a chance to speak, if you didn't speak, you would give leave to your brother and sister.

then there was silence, I was standing, the living room was full, saints on couches, chairs, the floor.

then God filled my mouth, as I humbly asked Messiah Jesus to Pastor this humble meeting of hungry saints, I cant remember WHAT i prayed, but i could barely keep from breaking into tears of Love and Gratitude to our Savior.

i went to the edge of the living room, into a foyer, it was the only room left. When i had been praying a hush suddenly came over the room, Jesus was THERE ...with us...that's why when i went into the foyer, i got on my face, and started silently weeping. (my eyes are filling now, as i remember that Day) Jesus was ravishing my soul. there was total silence in the room until one precious sister started to sing, out of hearts memory, "Let My Words be Few"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqIA_l2ypkE

the song started out quietly until everyone joined in, and many saints were weeping as we sung....as this meeting began.

it was almost heaven, there was no disorder, it was supernatural, the saints gave heart testimonies, prayers, wet prayers, bits of Scripture were offered, more songs, sung out of heart memory. i spent most of the time on my face, out of view, worshiping, being one with those praying, accepting Scriptures read aloud as FOOD for my soul.....no disorder, no rancor, perfect Love as Jesus led this meeting.

Then God the Holy Spirit spoke to me, and said "Now"....i looked up at my brother Rob, and said, "brother, may i wash your feet?"....he nodded, smiled and said "yes".

Time had been standing still, it was irrelevant, what happened next was just......of the LORD.....a group of men and me washed Rob's feet, wordlessly, the whole house was silent, then the women took over and washed his wife's feet....and the mysterious thing was nobody told anybody, "men wash mens feet, women wash womens feet"...the LORD put that into our hearts, so that the carnal element would not have any foothold in what had become Holy Ground....and this was all done wordlessly, the only sounds you could hear were the saints weeping, or the occasional "Thank You Jesus"..."i love you Jesus"

and i cannot tell you how "long" this all took, but the last brother who's feet we washed was a precious latino saint who had REALLY been a leader servant during the footwashing....and when it came time to wash his feet?....he start weeping with such force and passion, dying out to self....human words feel inadequate to describe that Day.

Then the Lord gave us release....all the saints had brought dishes of food, and we ate together with glad and merry hearts, marveling at what just happened, which is "God with us".

i THINK i might have left Mother Mimi's at 8 that night, we had been there over 10 hours....nobody WANTED to leave.

i testify that all i have wrote is true in Christ.

i'm sitting here stunned at the 4 in the morning...i pray that some of those who oppose such meetings, can see why my burden is so ardent, as i want more of the Lord Jesus, as i was allowed to see How Jesus Pastors a meeting....to see how all IN Christ are equal, and how desperately there are saints that wish to be included in the service before the Altar of Christ.

May the Grace and the Peace and the Love of Messiah Jesus be with you all, neil