Death by Denomination

” The histories of the monks and the friars shows that if a spiritual movement can be kept within the confines of the Roman Catholic Church or any similar system, it is doomed and must be dragged down to the level of that which it sought originally to reform.It purchases exemption from persecution at the cost of its life. Francis of Assisi and Peter Waldo were both laid hold of by the same teaching of the Lord and yielded themselves to Him with uttermost devotion. In each case the example set and the teaching given gained the hearts of large numbers and affected their whole manner of life. The likeness turned to contrast when the one was accepted and the other rejected by the organized religion of Rome. The inward relation to the Lord may have remained the same, but the working out of the two lives differed widely. The Franciscans being absorbed into the Roman system, helped to blind men to it, while Waldo and his band of preachers directed multitudes of souls to the Scriptures, where they learned to draw for themselves fresh )and inexhaustible supplies from the ” wells of salvation.” (The Pilgrim Church, pg 117)

Can you see what Broadbent is saying? Those who bow to an institution,any denomination, are doomed to die a slow death and that which began as fire is doused by the waters of compromise and idolatry. God is a jealous God. He shares His glory with no one and no institution. You cannot serve two masters, you will ultimately love the one and hate the other. The burning fire of God takes place outside the walls, outside the bounds of organized religion. This fire ultimately becomes the enemy of all religion. That is why Frank Bartleman was so upset when the Azusa street revival morphed into a denomination. This would guarantee the demise of the movement itself. Whether a movement begins within the confines of organised religion or becomes an organised religion, the end result is the same. Better to stay within the confines of God and God alone and be persecuted and killed, than to die the slow death of compromise and idolatry. The Waldenses that Broadbent makes reference to when speaking of Waldo, was ruthlessly hunted down and eventually wiped out by religion. Yet, the gates of hell did not prevail against the genuine Church nor can it. God always maintains a witness in the land, a remnant.

Gods end-time Church will burn with the fire of God outside the camp of religion. They will be no less hated by all men. They will fulfill the high priestly prophecy of John 17 and they shall be one for a witness to the world, without compromise and idolatry. The only authority that they shall bow to will be the authority of God. The authority of man ultimately corrupts the moving of God. Self preservation and a desire to avoid persecution in all its many forms is the death of any movement of God. The last great movement of God shall embrace persecution and count it an honor to suffer humiliation and rejection and persecution for His sake, for in this they follow closely in the footsteps of Jesus. And the greatest persecution will come from those who seek to control and organize the people of God. When Gods people reject the authority of religion, they become its greatest enemy and this leads to their persecution. Only lovers of truth will stand in the coming days of darkness. One must be willing to forsake all in order to gain eternal glory.......bro Frank

I believe Broadbent is speaking of primarily the Catholic system and other truly religious systems. He is not speaking of evangelical denominations by-in-large for he himself was involved in the brethren denomination which was a highly organized group.

I believe what he is saying is true movements and denominations (sects, groups or whatever name we call them) will free people to serve the Lord and recieve revelation from the Scriptures. While the system will make people serve it and its traditions and not Christ Himself.

Organisation is not the evil but rather those who teach brethren to serve traditions instead of following the Scriptures and God-ordained men.

The only authority that they shall bow to will be the authority of God

I would think that it is important for true brethren to be submissive to authority in the Church itself and also to the civil authorities as much as lies in them according to the scriptures. Of course if men in the church are leading people from the Scriptures in error they do not have to be submitted to in the end. God's people actually are marked by a spirit of "bowing" (that of humility and preferring others before themselves). The last shall be first.

Then we shall disagree brother. Here is what Broadbent actually said ...........

" The histories of the monks and the friars shows that if a spiritual movement can be kept within the confines of the Roman Catholic Church or any similar system, it is doomed and must be dragged down to the level of that which it sought originally to reform."

Note the words " or any similar system." It is the systems of men that kills and it is the Spirit that gives life to men who follow Him no matter the systems of men. No one said any of these systems were in and of themselves evil, they are inherrently flawed is what Broadbent is saying and they are not Biblical. Let Scripture be our guide and not the traditions of men..........bro Frank

amen, brother Frank.

or 'leaders'?...or "authorities?...in the "Church"?

that's the Body of Christ...yet how many denominations are there?

and I don't understand what you mean by "true brethren"?
whats the definition, in your mind, of "true brethren"?

and I don't understand why you bring "civil authorities" into the mix, as they have shown themselves to be the biggest enemy of Jesus, with their lies, and their greed, and lust for power, worshiping power and gold as an idol.

its pure evil....

like brother Frank, then I have to disagree with what you wrote.

Then we shall agree to disagree Gary :) As for Broadbent, he was a missionary who travelled to countless countries to share the gospel. He was associated with " The Plymouth Brethren." That was simply a designation given to them by others, they actually just called themselves brothers or brethren. Most within that early movement, especially those not so closely associated with Darby, simply called themselves Christian.

You will be glad to know that Broadbent was not a hypocrite but was in fact a very brave missionary who went into countries considered to be " closed," to share the Gospel.........bro Frank

Bro Alan writes......

"Not in its beginnings it wasn't. It wasn't highly organized, and in fact it wasn't a denomination. In its beginnings it was one of the strongest movements of the Spirit the world has ever seen."

Indeed brother. And to answer your question in my opinion, if you were part of a group of two or three, or ten or twelve or fifty or sixty, the leadership would become apparent by the power of the Holy Spirit. I think about how the first deacons were called by the people, they were men deemed to be and apparent to all, to be " full of the Holy Spirit." I have seen this create jealousies in other men who deem themselves to be leaders. It's the old Saul/David spirit. Spirit and flesh do not mix very well.......bro Frank

Here is the quote in context from the Broadbent book (which I love and have read a few times and refer to many).

---

Within the Roman Catholic Church there were many souls suffering under the prevailing worldliness, who desired a revival of spiritual life yet did not come out of that system and join themselves to these churches of believers which, outside of it, were endeavouring to act on the principles of Scripture. In the same year (1209) in which Pope Innocent III inaugurated the crusade against the South of France, Francis of Assisi, then 25 years old, hearing at mass one winter morning the words of Jesus from the tenth chapter of Matthew, in which He gave commands to the twelve apostles as He sent them out to preach, saw in this the way of the reformation he had desired and felt himself called to preach in utmost poverty and humility. From this sprang the order of Franciscan Friars which so quickly spread over the world. Francis was a wonderful preacher, and his sincerity and devotion and joyous nature drew multitudes to hear him. In 1210 he went to Rome with the little company of his earliest followers, and obtained from the Pope a somewhat reluctant verbal approval of their 'Rule', with permission to preach. The numbers wishing to join were soon so great that to meet the needs of those who desired to keep the Rule, and yet continue in their usual vocations the "Third Order" was formed, the Tertiaries, who continued their secular occupations while submitting themselves to a prescribed rule of life, the pattern of which is chiefly found in the instructions of the Lord Jesus to the Apostles.[Page 95: The Friars]They vowed to restore ill-gotten gains, be reconciled to enemies, live in peace with all, live a life of prayer and works of charity, keep fasts and vigils, pay tithes to the church, take no oaths, nor bear arms, use no bad language, practise piety to the dead. The spirit of Francis burned for the conversion of heathen and Mohammedans, as well as for that of his own Italians, and twice he suffered almost to death in endeavouring to reach and preach to the infidels in Palestine and Morocco. In 1219 the second Chapter General of the Order was held and numerous friars were sent out to all countries, from Germany to North Africa, and later to England also. Five who went to Morocco suffered martyrdom. The Order soon grew beyond the power of Francis to control it, came under the organizing authority of men of different ideals, and, to his great grief, the Rule of Poverty was modified. After his death (1226) the division, which had begun earlier, between the strict and the lax friars, became more acute; the stricter ones, or Spirituali, were persecuted, four of them being burnt in Marseilles (1318), and in the same year the Pope formally declared to be heresy the teaching that Christ and His Apostles possessed nothing.

These new orders of Friars, the Dominicans and Franciscans, like the older orders of monks, arose from a sincere desire for deliverance from intolerable evils prevailing in the Church and the world, and from the soul's quest after God. While the older monastic orders were chiefly occupied with personal salvation and sanctification, the later orders of friars devoted themselves more to helping in their needs and miseries the men and women around them. Both institutions, the Monastic and the Preaching Orders, for a time exercised a widespread influence for good, yet both, being founded on the ideas of men, quickly degenerated, and became instruments of evil””active agents in opposing those who sought revival by carrying out and making known the Scriptures.

The histories of the monks and of the friars show that if a spiritual movement can be kept within the confines of the Roman Catholic Church or any similar system it is doomed, and must inevitably be dragged down to the level of that which it sought originally to reform. It purchases exemption from persecution at the cost of its life.

Francis of Assisi and Peter Waldo were both laid hold of by the same teaching of the lord, and yielded themselves to Him with uttermost devotion. In each case the example set and the teaching given gained the hearts of large numbers and affected their whole manner of life. The likeness turned to contrast when the one was accepted and the other rejected by the organised religion of Rome. The inward relation to the Lord may have remained the same, but the working out of the two lives differed widely. The Franciscans being absorbed into the Roman system, helped to bind men to it, while Waldo and his band of preachers directed multitudes of souls to the Scriptures, where they learned to draw for themselves fresh and inexhaustible supplies from the "wells of salvation."

from: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks10/1000351h.html

HI Greg,

Do you believe that changes anything or that the quote I gave somehow took the true meaning out of context? It only affirms my point about what Broadbent was saying about systems and what happens to those who compromise and stay within them. I appreciate you shedding more light on what Broadbent was getting at..........bro Frank

Thank you Maryjane,

And Noone, I am sorry " sister," :) ........bro Frank

I just wanted to state that this thread is not about leadership. This thread is about death by denomination. Now I understand that some people are very taken up with the issues of leadership. God always raises up leaders, that is just a simple fact. He is a God who gives gifts and one of them is leadership. Those who are baptized in the Holy Spirit and empowered for ministry and called by God shall certainly lead. That is why I mentioned the first deacons, their qualifications were that they were men who were full of the Holy Spirit and it was very recognizable to the saints. I am very sure that " strong leadership," came down from Jerusalem to spy out the saints liberty and not for one hour did Paul stand for it, even rebuking Peter publicly for playing the hypocrite when these strong leaders came down. Paul never paid them that much attention, these men or reputation did little for him.

No, the thread is about the confines and constructs of men and how it inevitably quenches the Spirit of God. Denominationalism is a construction of men and not of God. It stands in opposition to the Word of God, whether in John 17 or countless other Scriptures that talk about the oneness of the Body. Walls of partition are demolished by God, not constructed. The end results, as Broadbent was arguing,was death, whether it takes a few decades or a few hundred years. Again, we must be led by Scriptures and not the vain traditions of men...........bro Frank

Gary writes.........

"So am i hearing this right" Well, by your response Gary, I am gonna go with " no." I am not sure why you are trying to personalize the subject, it never bodes well for any thread, this has nothing to do with my " little group."

Now, you can agree or disagree with the OP or the points that Broadbent was making about systems which is fine, but lets play the ball and not the man. So, let me repeat for clarification and you may agree or disagree with this which if fine and maybe you will tell us why you disagree with it without mentioning me or personalizing it .......

Denominationalism is a construction of men and not of God. It stands in opposition to the Word of God, whether in John 17 or countless other Scriptures that talk about the oneness of the Body. Walls of partition are demolished by God, not constructed. The end results, as Broadbent was arguing,was death, whether it takes a few decades or a few hundred years. Again, we must be led by Scriptures and not the vain traditions of men...........bro Frank

Hi Paul,

You make many good points to which I agree in regard to men whom God was with. Yet, sectarianism in all its many forms is no where to be found in the Scriptures. If, for instance, I call myself a Baptist and identify myself as such, then I have created a division between myself and those who are not Baptists. If I call myself a Calvinist and identify myself as such, then I have created division between myself and those who do not identify themselves as such. If I call myself a pentecostal and Identify myself as such, then I have created division with those who do not identify themselves as such. One does not need to know much about the history of denominationalism to know the horrors that have unfolded because men take up camp in man made structures.

None of this falls into line with Scripture. The simple reading of Scripture identifies the Body of Christ as one. One Body, one Spirit , one family. Those who are saved are simply members of one family. Now I fully understand that men have complicated this over the centuries, but it is Scripture that is a lamp unto our feet not the traditions of men...............bro Frank

" Luther by his mighty strokes hewed a way through long consecrated privileges and abuses, so the reform became possible. He revealed Christ to countless sinners as the Saviour to whom each one was invited to come, without intervention of priest or saint or church or sacrament, not on account of any goodness in himself , but as a sinner in all his needs, to find in Christ, through faith in Him, perfect salvation, founded in the perfect work of the Son of God. Instead, however, of continuing in the way of the Word, Luther then built up a church in which some abuses were reformed, but in many aspects was a reproduction of the old system..................and the hopes awakened among the brethren gradually faded away as they saw themselves placed between two ecclesiastical systems, each of which was ready to enforce conformity in matters of conscience-by the sword" (The Pilgrim Church)

You see the point that Broadbent makes? He says that the great mistake of Luther was that he did not continue in the way of the Word but built an ecclesiastical system to rival Rome. And in this system, conformity in matters of conscience were enforced by the sword, and might I add, fire. Now in our modern times we, in the West in our denominations do not enforce conformity by the edge of the sword or by fire, but we do enforce conformity in the ecclesiastical systems by " strong leadership." And those, who refuse to conform to that which is not written but is merely the traditions and theologies of men, will soon find themselves outside of these camps, which I would argue is a good thing. Following the Word of God in all its simplicity and profoundness is the way and the truth and th life and it is a lamp unto our feet in an ever darkening world.........bro Frank

Hi Paul,

This division is not what I have decided in my mind brother, it the reality borne out over centuries. You write....

"An interesting point is that it was the original twelve who tried to stop them, who tried to bring disunity to the outsiders."

They tried to bring disunity to the outsiders Paul? That just really makes no sense and stretches a thin point beyond the conversation that we are having. We are talking about denominationalism and systems of men and whether that is biblical.

You say that your tongue speaking was no biggie to your Baptist brothers. Really Paul? You could go to their fellowship on a Sunday morning and if the Holy Spirit led, you could stand up and give a word in tongues or a word of knowledge and so on? I think an anecdotal story of how you were friendly with some Baptists on the street is nothing more than that, an anecdote and it does not change the history of animosity between the denominations and division or the fact that it is a construct of men and not of God.............bro Frank

Scriptural basis for one Body and unity.............

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Ephesians 4:11-13
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Colossians 3:13-14
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

John 17:23
I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Matthew 23:8
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

Ephesians 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Galatians 3:26-28
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Ephesians 4:1-6
I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit””just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call”” one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Romans 6:5
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Colossians 3:14
And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony

Romans 15:6
That together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

Acts 4:32
Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
(Joh 17:20-26)

Bro Alan writes...

"That is not to say that there are not many wonderful saints scattered throughout the denominations, as well as many in leadership positions who love the Lord with all their heart and are leading their flocks with integrity." I would certainly agree to that and say amen.

"But God is not content to leave thing this way. He will yet have things His own way-- all His people one, and this with the same unity enjoyed between Father and Son. To what intent?
"...That the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them as Thou hast love Me."
When the world sees this kind of unity they are going to get down on their knees. As it is now, they mock us for our divisions."

Amen brother. The world will see that kind of unity before the Lord returns and it will probably be persecution that brings the Body of Christ together in a visable unity.....bro Frank

Hi brother Paul,

My sincere advice is to play the ball and not the man. I may disagree with you and think you are wrong, which I do, but it does not lead me to believe you are elitist in your views, or that you are sowing discord because you disagree with me or others. That is why I gave multiple scriptures in defense of my assertions that denominationalism is not God's will nor are the systems created by man. Perhaps we could refrain from pesonalizing this and stick to what Scriptures say about denominationalism? It would probably be more helpful and save the thread going sour in factionism, dont you agree? .............bro Frank

Paul, you write........

"But this "unification" should never become all-comprehensive to the point of exclusivity."

Unity should never be so good that it excludes? Now brother, you have certainly lost me. Unity is the whole, the one Body. One would have to remove themselves, exclude themselves from it and form a faction and call themselves by some other name than Christ and then exclude the whole. This is the genesis of denominationalism brother, factionism. We all, who know Jesus, are brothers and sisters, no more no less. When we come together in unity, as many who read this could testify, there is a wonderful Spirit that comes down from above as you yourself testified of. This is our calling from our high priest in John 17...........bro Frank

God bless you too Gary, playing the man would be something like this I think.........

"The elitist flesh, on the other hand, revels in sewing discord, disunity and factionism in those who are not a carbon copy of its own image."

"I dont think it is a good idea to esteem a mans writings as you have done ,as if it carries some special authority .."

I have not done that brother. I used a quote from Broadbent and then eloborated in my own words. It's the word of God that carries authority which is why I gave multiple Scripture references for unity in the Body and have yet to hear one Scripture reference from anyone to support factionalism and denoniminationalism and systems of men. Those who know Jesus are merely brothers and sisters in one Body through one Spirit although men down through the ages have sought to identify themselves in a myriad of ways other than Christ...........bro Frank

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(1Co 12:12-31)

God gives gifts to men to edify the Body. God has set these in the church according to the Word above. This is how God deemed it to be right from the beginning in gatherings even if men deem it not to be in their own wisdom. Yet listening to some posts on this thread who claim that to exercise such gifts as led by the Holy Spirit would be to make the weak stumble simply makes me scratch my head. Is it possible that men would claim to be more wise than God? Is it any wonder that Christendom is in such a state of dissaray around the world when we, in our arrogance, have deemed that we no longer need what God said we needed. There has been no greater enemy to the working of God's gifts for edification amongst the gatherings than denominationalism and the systems of men, or as Broadbent put it " ecclesiastical systems." .......bro Frank

What is it with this playing the man sports analogy?
In hockey you always play the man, never the puck (ball).
(Except for the goalie of course)

....now back to our regularly scheduled argument

my brother Frank,

you distilled EVERYTHING into these few sentences:

Denominationalism is a construction of men and not of God. It stands in opposition to the Word of God, whether in John 17 or countless other Scriptures that talk about the oneness of the Body.

I don't understand how anyone after reading John 17, and then read it again, and again.....get an audio bible, and hit replay....on John 17

Ponder on this ugly historical FACT, what was the first 'denomination' of ...what was first called "The Way"?

it was the "church" of Rome......if THAT, in itself does not give any saint pause for prayerful thought, leading to Godly grief...I don't know what to tell you...

...and Paul, I was just scanning the later posts, but I think I read a phrase you hurled out there..."elitist flesh"?

what do you mean, and whom is such directed at?

know what, brethren?....this is a nice luxury, a robust cyber rumble (I stand by my brother Frank).....but watch out, a tsunami is headed our way....a teensy tiny organism, a virus, Judgment is coming.

Oracio writes that the problem may be a deep one of the heart. I believe that is true, there is, deep in the heart of men, a stubborn rebellion to ignore the Word of God and His clearly laid down means of edifying the Body. So many countless systems and gatherings have deemed that they can operate outside of the clear instructions of the Spirit of God, and are then surprised that the presence of God fails to manifest itself and their gatherings have become mere social clubs.

We live in a generation that is almost wholly unreached by the Gospel. Does the problem lie with the unsaved world? The world is wicked, for sure, but it has always been that way, but what of the light? What of the salt? Is our light hidden, has our salt lost its saltiness and if it has, what is its use? Is anyone bold enough to say that Christendom is in good shape? And if it is not, then why not? It cannot be the wicked worlds fault for the world has always been wicked. It cannot be Gods fault for in our God there lies no fault. If the world has grown darker, and we have been charged as being bearers of the light, then where is the light? Is their an increase of darkness or a decrease in light? If their be a decrease in light then what cause? Yes indeed , judgement begins at the house of the Lord......bro Frank

I believe that its a good thing that we have 'structures' and denominationalism is what men fall into when they are not walking in the light.

When God grants revival, it only takes one generation for it to subside, and then later, if men separate, we are left with yet another denomination that has died a death and will struggle to survive and witness divisions instead of unity. At least the structures of traditional church buildings and systems allow the church to continue until God brings another revival. Things will just tick over till then and men will argue over doctrine and judge each other. The outer courts are necessary when the inner ones are empty, to hold it together until the presence falls again.

When men are revived there are no barriers, and they love one another, but it is no good trying to recreate the conditions of revival without the Spirit being there.

I used to believe in 'coming out' but not any more. You can meet with like minded people within the structures and a good one will allow for this. I don't believe in working to reform a church from within either. If we are revived and walking in the light, then men around us can be as dead as door-nails, and we will love and not be discouraged. The Holy Spirit within us will convict them and bring to them the light we have and if it is not happening then the HS is not there within us although we will insist that He is. We so quickly look to others and blame them when the fault is within us.

The reality is that most men are walking in darkness and nearly always have done.

judgement begins at the house of the Lord......bro Frank

Indeed, Amen.

It is the spiritual state which counts. The outer parts come second.

My sister writes.......

"At least the structures of traditional church buildings and systems allow the church to continue until God brings another revival. Things will just tick over till then and men will argue over doctrine and judge each other."

Jesus is at the door sister. The Bridegroom is coming for His Bride. There is a prophetic calendar. The prevailing attitude of those who worshiped in the temple was that God would never allow anything to happen to the temple which had been around for over 1000 years. Yet God no longer resided in the temple and not one stone was left unturned in that day of judgement.

God has always had his witnesses in the last 2000 years that have stood outside of the prevailing systems. One last point sister, my post does not compel people to leave anything, it merely points out the division between religion and the people of God. It speaks to the fact that divisions and denominations and identifications of anything other than being brothers and sisters in Christ is not Biblical. God has called His Body to unity, to be one body, one spirit , one mind. Jesus prophesied in John 17 that the body would be one as He and the Father were one so that the world would know that He had been sent from His Father, so that we, the Body, by our unity, would be a witness to a world that shall soon be judged. This is our high calling from our High Priest. Everything else, I would argue, is a rationalization of our present state.........bro Frank

God has always had his witnesses in the last 2000 years that have stood outside of the prevailing systems

Who are these people brother? By your standard you are disclosing all groups that are organized with official leaders and structure or any sort of ecclesiastical order or order of service. In all my reading of Church history I simply do not find men such as yourself as God's standard of those who are truly doing what He wants outside all systems.

SermonIndex itself has order, has community rules, and moderator leadership. Roads have order (2 lanes), the Lord has order in the Churches. I do agree God has always had a witness in the earth but it has not been outside structure or denominations as such. God's remnant groups have been seperate at times but in spirit they exhibited John 17, men have always called every group that was seperate unto the Lord by a Name and even in the book of Acts the assemblies in their day were called many names.

What I have seen is "anger, bitterness and unforgivenness" in many who are "out of church" because of past hurts and wrong leadership. Agreed brother Oracio thank you for being honest and sharing your testimony in this regard.

I have counselled and talked with brethren who it was very obvious they were deceived in a measure in this direction and could not accept anyone except a few saints from the past and a few assemblies the rest were declared to have no lampstands or testimony of the Lord. Such thinking makes the way more narrow then our Lord did and has no mercy on existing assemblies where our Lord's testimony to the Laoadicean church itself was one of love and mercy, desiring them to be in the better place of relationship with Him and not trusting in their own strength.

My thought was I could be just like these individuals I was speaking to and be hurting others in IC settings speaking against their churches harshly if it were not the grace of God in my life. I have been in enough situations of abusive leadership that I could carry bitterness, hurts, etc, but by God's grace I have been able to give them to the Lord and not hold onto them.

Yielding in one's spirit and not always desiring to be right is a mark of the Spirit of God, unyielding, standing for one's rights, standing alone against all of christendom usually is a place of great spiritual peril and pride and not a healthy standing for truth. The Lord alone can keep God's Church and saints in balance and a place of allowing Him to divide the wheat from the chaff, and submitting to leaders that He puts in place in the body of Christ.

Hi bro Greg,

I do not believe you have ever really been able to grasp what I have been saying about organization and leadership and it may be that you simply will not get where I am coming from and that is fine, I can certainly leave it at that.

For three hundred years brothers and sisters gathered in fellowships in their homes. There was leadership and discipline according to the word of God and to the Spirit. Then, truly the first ecclesiastical system was built whose foundation was Constantine and Rome. This dominated almost the entire " Christian," world. There were groups who stood against them, starting with the " Donatists." " Ah ha," you say, they had a name and met together and had leaders, they had organization therefore they are what you argue against. You might say that brother, but if you did , you would be wrong. They had no name other than Christian and brothers and sisters. It was their enemies that gave them a name. The Brethren movement that goes back almost 1700 years ( not the Plymouth brethren who are well documented and who themselves did not take on a name) This ancient Brethren group merely called each other brothers and sisters and stood in rebellion and opposition to the Catholic Church.

The Waldenses can also be traced back at least 1700 years, some say right back to the Apostles, but again they had no name other than Christ. This name was given to them by their enemies. They merely referred to each other as brother or sister in Christ. You state that their were named " churches in the book of Acts, there was not. They were merely referred to by their geographical location. For instance the church that is in Rome. Or the church that is in Colosse and so on. There is not a single reference to " churches," plural in the NT in regard to towns or cities, only regions, like Asia and so on.

Now all of those local Christians that gathered in fellowship and down through their rebellion against the ecclesiastical order or system had leadership. They had some apostles, some pastors some prophets and some teachers and so on as chosen by the Holy Spirit who gives out these gifts and callings in the first place. God has never left nor forsaken his children gathered. God calls on us to gather as HIs children and all the more as we see that day approach. In every town and in every city God has His children and I have always encouraged the saints to gather. You will not find any post from me where I have encouraged people to leave wherever they are attending right now. We are Gods servants and He must do the calling. Now, it may be difficult but our walk was never intended to easy and is not for the faint of heart. This is why in the book of Revelation the promises are made to those who overcome, to those who endure till the end. So, follow God, follow His word, follow the Spirit in everything you do and never compromise that. Better to follow God than to follow and rely upon the traditions of men. One will let you down, the other will not................bro Frank

Oracio writes about my tenor and the way that my comments come across. Lets make a deal Oracio, I will not guess what is in your heart and you do me the same favor. Let us stick to what we write.

"Can you see how that can come across as divisive or offensive to many brethren?"

Yes brother, I can see how it may come across. Should I stay silent as to what the Lord has laid on my heart because of how it may come across? Would you brother?

Is you own stance on this subject not divisive to the ones who disagree with you? You see how strange this could become if what we write is based on anything other than speaking the truth in love and not judging what is in a brothers heart. I am not the one who has used such words as " bitterness, elitist flesh, pride, factionist," and so on. These would not be the words I would choose to use against anyone who simply disagreed with my interpretation of Scripture and what the Word of God means when it talks about unity and the Body of Christ.

I could actually argue Oracio, that the people who use those words are the angry divisive ones. But I will not go down that path. Let us study each others words and take us at our words and let the judging of hearts be left to God alone.

On my website, I have almost 650 articles I have written. If any man or woman wants to see where I am coming from, I am an open book, one who speaks what is on his heart clearly. I have never hidden behind passive aggression and I believe in total transperancy. This has not always endeared me to many but even my detractors who know me would acknowledge that I am a plain speaking brother. Now let me bless you brother Oracio as you go about your business today and may the love of God reign in our hearts as we discuss, what I believe to be, the pressing issue of our time and in fact an ancient issue. Your brother in Christ..............bro Frank

Bro Allan writes........

" Please go to the original Template. You simply cannot find denominationalism there."

I am not sure it gets any simpler or profound than that. Scripture must be our guide, not the traditions of men...........bro Frank

Oracio writes......

"In any case brother, I sincerely thank you for wishing me that blessing. May the Lord bless you mightily also. And may we be able to lovingly, graciously, respectfully agree to disagree on this and other non-essentials and proceed in devotion to Him."

Yes, let us agree to disagree brother, but I cannot give you that it is a non-essential, but nice try :) but we can proceed in our devotion to Jesus and His word and be faithful to it as much that lies within us.........bro Frank

Hi brother,

I definately see it as something that is vitally important in these dark and darkening days of the great falling away. We can certainly still fellowship even although we disagree. It is non-essential in regard to salvation itself, but we must encourage brothers and sisters to go to the word of God and see how we are instructed to gather as brother Allan was talking about. I think we have certainly had our opportunity to express our thoughts through the written word and folks who read this thread have certainly seen both sides of the discussion which is a good thing. God bless you again brother...........bro Frank

Bro Allan writes...........

"The early Brethren (Plymouth Brethren) were willing to have fellowship (and have communion) with all believers regardless of what denomination they were in.But they themselves refused to belong to any denomination.
That's how I feel as well."

Amen brother, this seems to have been the spirit down through the ages with the saints. They at all times sought to live peacably among men, but their detractors typically turned on them with accusations first followed by persecution because they refused to yield to the authority of what they saw to be not Scriptural.........bro Frank

for the umpteenth time!

Listen!!

the more posts in opposition to bro Frank's word of Truth, the more impotent this opposition seems to me.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

Brother Len said, he would never join a church if it didny have at least ONE, if not more prayer meeting a week.

The carefully timed Sunday services are MAN directed.

Many of these "demoninations", just seem like so many assemblies of "rome-lite"...amen.....just listen to Ian

Okay brothers, let us not use the term brother when we are really thinking
something other than brother in our posts. Use terms like lukewarm, backsliding, unregenerate, disagreeable with my infallible wisdom, ect.

this will more accurately convey what we are really thinking instead.

Dear brother and fellow disciple in Christ Oracio, we have found something that we can be in complete agreement with, disagreeing with the last notsodark.

" Just because there are strong disagreements over issues like this does not mean we cannot consider one another brothers in Christ."

I feel the warmth of brotherhood in that statement and I heartily agree............bro Frank

Brother Oracio

I agree with your observation, and was just trying to inject some humour.

Bro Colin writes............

"For me it's not about be disgruntled attitude, but a hope that the church can be what it should be, a desire to see God raising up a people who are utterly sold out for the Kingdom of heaven and that people take the Gospel message to the very ends of the earth and that God's Holy name will be vindicated through those people."

I completely agree. That is the kind of brothers and sisters I have been fellow-shipping with in the last several years from all over, including the world, and it is thrilling. Hearing God is the most important thing, I agree, we must be able to hear what the Spirit is saying.........bro Frank

Brother Len said, he would never join a church if it didny have at least ONE, if not more prayer meeting a week.

brother Ravenhill laboured for the reviving of the local church in various denominations, he did not call people out of them but sought to see them revived and changed within, that was also the desire of John Wesley and countless others. A.W. Tozer was an Alliance denominational pastor and was the main editor of their magazine for a time. He sought for revival in the denomination he was a part of as well as the larger body of Christ.

I wonder which speakers on SermonIndex heard the voice of God saying for them to leave denominations and join the "true body of Christ" how it is supposed to gather?

C.H. Spurgeon was a particular baptist and sought for reform in Baptist circles in his day. Were all these men wrong for being in denominations?

Greg asks...........

"I wonder which speakers on SermonIndex heard the voice of God saying for them to leave denominations and join the "true body of Christ" how it is supposed to gather?"

And the answer, in direct contradiction to what Greg just asserted is ...........

PROPHETIC WORD FROM 50 YEARS AGO ”“ A. W. TOZER

"Let me go out on a limb a little bit and prophesy. I see the time coming when all the holy men whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit will desert worldly Evangelicalism, one by one. The house will be left desolate
and there will not be a man of God, a man in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, left among them. I hear Jesus saying…Mat 23:37-38: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate”

As the Church now stands, the man who sees this condition of worldly evangelicalism is written off as somewhat fanatical. But the day is coming when the house will be left desolate and there will not be a man of God among them. I would like to live long enough to watch this develop and see how things turn out. I would like to live to see the time when the men and woman of God-holy, separated and spiritually enlightened-walk out of the
evangelical church and form a group of their own; when they get off the sinking ship and let her go down in the brackish and worldliness and form a new ark to ride out the storm”

Good quotes brother Allan, seems like these men of God knew well the Scriptures..........

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
(1Co 3:1-4)

Indeed, the naming and the following of men and their traditions is the essence of carnality.....bro Frank

Hi Oracio, I wanted to post this again in case you missed it. When Tozer announced himself to prophecy, was he wrong. Remember, this was over 50 years ago. What would Tozer and Ravenhill make of our current condition? Comments please on this prophecy by Tozer? Was he just wrong or is it for a time yet future? ......bro Frank

Greg asks...........

"I wonder which speakers on SermonIndex heard the voice of God saying for them to leave denominations and join the "true body of Christ" how it is supposed to gather?"

And the answer, in direct contradiction to what Greg just asserted is ...........

PROPHETIC WORD FROM 50 YEARS AGO ”“ A. W. TOZER

"Let me go out on a limb a little bit and prophesy. I see the time coming when all the holy men whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit will desert worldly Evangelicalism, one by one. The house will be left desolate
and there will not be a man of God, a man in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, left among them. I hear Jesus saying…Mat 23:37-38: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate”

As the Church now stands, the man who sees this condition of worldly evangelicalism is written off as somewhat fanatical. But the day is coming when the house will be left desolate and there will not be a man of God among them. I would like to live long enough to watch this develop and see how things turn out. I would like to live to see the time when the men and woman of God-holy, separated and spiritually enlightened-walk out of the
evangelical church and form a group of their own; when they get off the sinking ship and let her go down in the brackish and worldliness and form a new ark to ride out the storm”

And the answer, in direct contradiction to what Greg just asserted is ...........

Brethren, it is probably clear to any saint who has been on SermonIndex for any time that I promote and given the truth over and over again that the spiritual body of Christ is not a denomination or name but a unified body of believers. The forums themselves having hundreds of brethren who have been involved in many denominations and groups yet on the forums this distinction in most cases is lost. In the conferences we have had there were just first names on name tags and not denomination names. It always felt like heaven being in a conference where you have brethren from all parts of the body of christ (conservative, penteocostal, etc) yet all were one in the meetings by-in-large.

As frank is also sharing an short excerpt that myself promoted heavily on sermonindex and social media when I found it. The fact is Spurgeon did not leave his denomination, Ravenhill still labored amongst all of them. Tozer died an alliance pastor. It is telling the quote from what Tozer wrote:

"-walk out of the
evangelical church and form a group of their own"

A group! surely Tozer was not promoting the starting of another evangelical movement with a new name? The fact is to call for a united body of Christ and have no practical meeting of these saints, no structure, no group to join is the problem.

My question in that regard would be, is brother Len's conviction the standard of criteria for us to join a church?

Yes.....maybe not YOURS, but brother Len Ravenhill said I will NOT join with a church that does not have a regular prayer meeting....and since I believe that in this modern age, Len Ravenhill was THE closet person we had to a prophet, and there is great emphasis on "strong leadership"..i listen to Len, though, Bless God, he is with Jesus....I look for God fearing human leaders, I cant find any in this 50 mile by 50 mile rural radius, but at least in the human realm, I have Len Ravenhill and Michael Brown.

Where does it say in the Bible that churches must officially have a special "prayer meeting" set aside during the week in order for us to join them?

lets start in the 14th verse of the 1st chapter of Acts

" All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

"devoting themselves to prayer".

of course we have the seminal 42nd verse of the second chapter of Acts:

"And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers."

Now, some of you MIGHT find teaching as the rome-lite method of a single manstanding up in front of a passive audience...expounding, lecturing....but teaching is a two way street, just as "submission to leadership" is really CO-submission, a two street street...but many many "leaders" are wrapped in their own pride and ego, thinking that the "sheep", need to be led by the nose, which leads to ecclesiastical abuse and tyranny...history stands as my amen.

Now these "churches" around my 50 mile by 50 mile area, which I have been to many of....not ONE has a weekly prayer meeting...of course 75% of the them are United Methodist, Lutheran, Evan Lutheran, and United Church of Christ...just consider that sad reality for a second....cause when God the Holy Ghost told me, "Go to them"?...I asked, "Lord really?...everyone of these denominations have ordained homosexual pastors"...."Never mind, GO, and walk in my Love",God told me.

so I went...nice people, of course you can find nice people around here at the Wal Mart, or at a Lions club breakfast, and I was handed the same bulletin, neatly TIMING out the "service"....and I looked in vain on these bulletins for a prayer meeting...NOT ONE!...and that absence of the Powerhouse of the Prayer Meeting in the local assemblies was so evident by one fact, 98% of the congregants were gray hairs....NO YOUTH.

never mind the whole world around this safe protected rural area is going to hell....never mind, the dread demon named "meth" and heroin is creeping into this district via the youth without any succor or direction, those who should be able to hear the Call of the Lord...."If My people...."...don't. They have a cozy little thing going, why upset it, by wetting the carpet of a church by their tears and cries to save our children?....save our nation?

Don't think we can find a verse that says that.

really?

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not knocking prayer meetings, I'm all for them.

oh that's nice to hear....you're not knocking prayer meetings, but you are certainly not hesitating to SQUANDER time and bandwidth by deigning to tell me, how off my burden and leading and desperate hunger for a prayer meeting is a criterion to my joining myself with a local HEALTHY assembly is......

...and please don't lecture me about the prayer closet, if I could collect all the tears in the past four years I've wept up here in this cabin in secret prayer, i'd have BUCKETS.

and since my TOWNSHIP has all of 152 souls, its a bit harder to find saints, who have the burden by soul travail Holy Ghost prayer...but its alright, I trust God...I don't put any trust in man, and that includes you Oracio...I don't mean that as an insult...I really don't, but that is the truth. this is a cyber forum, not face to face...and I don't KNOW you...I know brother Greg and I am shocked, grieved and saddened by his stance on this thread and the other.

but its good that all is being revealed.

I can easily "give up" on a building housing a backslidden lukewarm denomination, as well as I can give up on this forum....but banish the thought, I give up on the Lord.

so you men can keep your denominations, and your church bulletins and your pastors....and pitter patter along doing the same old thing, week after week, while the world slides into hell.

don't any of you feel any urgency?

when you start lecturing me about brother Len....I know in the Holy Spirit, my participation in this sad discourse is at an end.

you agreed, "no more 501c3" churches?...didn't you?

if you go to leadership of ANY of these denominations and propose THAT?....what do think their reaction will be?

and with that question, I shall recede.

I think what Tozer wrote was plain enough. There is no way to parse it away. And Oracio, the quote was in reply to Greg asserting that there was no preacher on SI promoting leaving the whole system behind, the quote shows that the statement was clearly false. He longed for and wished to see the day of just that. And I believe, I could be wrong, that this was the only time Tozer ever presented what he had written as prophecy.

I think the one thing that this thread reveals is , when push comes to shove, we can clearly see where we all stand. I for one think that is a good thing. Words are cheap and trying to agree with everyone all the time is always the broad road. One must find the truth and stand upon it no matter how lonely that position is.

The day is almost upon us where we will have to stand up and be counted. This takes courage, the kind of courage and boldness we see when Peter stands and address a huge angry crowd of religious pilgrims and zealots. He received that courage and boldness from his baptism in the Holy Spirit.

He and the others were baptized in the Holy Spirit because they were obedient to the word of God. They were not to go anywhere or do anything until they were endued with power from on high. So they stayed there until they had such power. Oh for a teaspoon full of that desire, that obedience, that expectation. Every single church program in the land should cease immediately until every one who calls themselves by the name of Jesus is endued with power from on high.

And every single rationlizing voice we have heard so far would cry out in lukewarmness and apathy and say " oh poor brother Frank, he is so naieve." Well, I would rather die in my naievete than live a long life of compromise. Greg says that at the conferences there was a special spirit when there was no names and peoples from all kinds of backgrounds came together. Yes, I agree, of course there was. Obedience to the word of God brings down the Spirit of God. There has also been, as Greg, if he is honest will admit, religious men who hated it so and demanded to have it there way in many issues.

If, in every town and every village and every city, men would give up their factions and come together as the Body of Christ, my mind cannot even conceive what the Holy Spirit would do with such a Body. And here comes the cries again " oh, your so naieve, men are not going to do that." Perhaps, but the truth is the truth and the times and the circumstances that we live in will bring about the saints, by neccessity, coming out from amongst the dead to find life wherever they can find it. Jesus said unto the religious men of His day and to all religious men down through the ages for the religious spirit never changes..........

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
(Mat 23:25-39)

This is the full Scripture Tozer alluded to. Of course or any good man would have that the systems would turn to God, but he knew, as Jesus knew when He said " O Jerusalem O Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Jesus would have had it that Jerusalem, the people called by His name would turn to HIm, but He knew better and He knew that within 40 years, the whole system would be destroyed and the centerpiece of that system, that was worshipped rather than God, would be taken down stone by stone. That is the context of Tozers quote.......bro Frank

I think what Tozer wrote was plain enough. There is no way to parse it away. And Oracio, the quote was in reply to Greg asserting that there was no preacher on SI promoting leaving the whole system behind, the quote shows that the statement was clearly false. He longed for and wished to see the day of just that. And I believe, I could be wrong, that this was the only time Tozer ever presented what he had written as prophecy.

Again brother I think it is healthy to get down to the marrow of the issue and realize where we exactly disagree. That does not stop me to sit down with you, embrace you as a brother have fellowship as we always have and I pray continue to. But we can disagree on what we feel will happen in christianity in the world especially relating to the end times which are upon us.

To be more exact in responding to what you wrote about my response to Tozer is that he did not ask people to leave all "systems" but to leave evangelicalism to be a part of a new group that was more healthy. So there you have it, he did not preach against the evils of anyone who is in a denomination that it is dividing christ though we all and I believe Tozer would agree that to have no denominations would align better with Scriptures. But in the end that was not the situation as it is not now.

There has also been, as Greg, if he is honest will admit, religious men who hated it so and demanded to have it there way in many issues.

To call someone "religious" meaning they do not have Jesus Christ in their hearts is a strong statement, I believe there was no leadership in the conferences that fit that criteria. I believe it was the remnant that was in these events, true brethren and a few that were religious got offended and left the conferences never coming back, we saw some in that category.

If, in every town and every village and every city, men would give up their factions and come together as the Body of Christ, my mind cannot even conceive what the Holy Spirit would do with such a Body.

I want to suggest this has happened a few times in Church history when a new godly group forms such as anabaptist, waldensians, quakers and many other groups, so it is not that this has not happened before. Also to be clear I am also contending for this to happen, praying and believing God for a new movement of His Spirit with true brethren as a testimony especially in North America and around the world. So it is not an question of all that are in existing "systems (denominations)" are wrong and those who leave are right, that was "rarely" the issue. It was in the days of the reformation for the calvinists and anabaptists, it was in the day of the church of england when dissenters, puritans and quakers formed.

Really where in history do we find that one group that says we are the body of Christ and the rest are wrong except in some spurious cult groups currently in the world who believe their baptism is only right and their church is the only one in the earth.

Yes I believe God is going to form possibly many remnant groups in the end times that desire alone to be the body of Christ accepting all true believers. But to have an exclusive, elitist spirit will be something that will be grieving to God. I believe all these remnant groups though they could be called different names especially by their enemies they are still one. That has always been true that all true brethren and more godly spirit filled denominations, groups, sects, movements, etc always had fellowship with others who were like them.

It's a bit frustrating when one posts something on the forum and it gets skipped over-- as my post about the necessity of building according to the template has apparently been. What about that, Greg and Oracio? Do you see denominationalism in the Template? I am positive that if you were able to get in a time machine and go back to the days of the early churches, you would not find any denominations.

Denominations came in later, always the result of man falling short of the full will of God. Nevertheless He has exercised great patience over the centuries, taking care of His people in the many denominations.

But He has something greater in mind, if one has eyes to see it.

And if not, there really should be no tug-of-war about this. I have friends in different denominations, and, since they are happy there, I never pressure them to leave. That's not God's way.

Most good denominations start that way brother, they start desiring to follow the Book of Acts and Scripture and see a working of the Spirit in their midst. If healthy they do not see themselves as the best way or exclusive but rather cannot deny God's Spirit working. They do not intend to be another "way" or "group" in the list of current one's. They are just following the working of God or the need for renewal in their local area.

There is a difference between being involved with a established group that is following in this way and on the opposite being an individual alone just saying all denominations are wrong and for people to leave them. God has always and will continue to form "new wineskins" each new structure if called of God should see itself carrying the apostolic spirit and testimony into the next generation.

To say all denominations are wrong and have been wrong is foolish because many of them have the sense of God and template of the book of Acts in their formation and operation.

Perhaps a needed discussion towards what is a denomination is needed. One will say if there is a heirachy then it is of men, I believe that is something little understood that the original church had apostles in leadership with even one or 2 apostles being looked more highly too. Of course Catholics run with that in early church father writings etc to make their case for popery.

I believe local churches as frank said in an early post are in regions and cities so the churches of Galatia (region) or the church in colosse (city, town). That all of them are autonomous being led by Elder(s). They submit to leadership of Apostles by willingness and not force, respecting them as fathers. There were assemblies (antoich, jerusalem) that were respected and known where many leaders, prophets etc were.

So I believe there was a clear sense of leadership, structure, and order to the original assemblies. What makes a denomination to me if that if they separate for one truth and make that truth an idol, such as "some" baptist churches feeling their "baptism" is the right way and best. Or "some" pentecostal groups considering their "manifestations" of the spirit the best so all others are wrong, etc. Of course in any assembly if leaders go wrong and seek their own then death comes into that church in that area. That would also happen if false apostles are able to exhert their influence to many assemblies in a region.

In modern days in America registering a non-profit status has been the route asked by the government and other governments of the world. That does not make a grouping of churches apostate or wrong to do so but there are alot of bad reasons to have that status.

Greg you write.........

"To be more exact in responding to what you wrote about my response to Tozer is that he did not ask people to leave all "systems" but to leave evangelicalism to be a part of a new group that was more healthy. So there you have it, he did not preach against the evils of anyone who is in a denomination that it is dividing christ though we all and I believe Tozer would agree that to have no denominations would align better with Scriptures. But in the end that was not the situation as it is not now."

So brother, you believe that Tozer only spoke to Evangelicalism but did not mention Denominations because he believed them to be okay? You are just plain wrong on that brother. Here is the opening paragraph from Tozer before he " prophesised."

2Ti 3:5-7 having a form of godliness, but denying the power of it; even turn away from these. (6) For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts, (7) ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

"The Evangelical church in America is facing some serious hazards that threaten to bring it to the brink of apostacy. My prayer is that it is not too late for an awakening that will lead to successful reformation. My use of the term " Evangelical," includes churches that are fundamental, full Gospel, holiness, Anabaptist and Pentecostal-all Evangelical churches that believe the Bible and proclaim Jesus Christ to be the only Savior of the world. I have nothing to say to any other church."(Tozer)

He would not even comment on Denominations because for most it would be abundantly clear that if the above mentioned " movements," were on the brink of apostacy ( that actual name of the piece) then the denominations had already fallen. So there you have it ( to use your own phrase)........bro Frank

That's what makes up the denominational system of Christianity. Certain churches are bound together by a common denominator-- certain points of doctrine to which they agree. Others churches have a different denominator-- some other set of doctrines. Or perhaps it is a person who is their common denominator. John Wesley or William Branham, or Menno Simon, or Chuck Smith... Apparently there are something like around 30,000 registered denominations in the U.S. No wonder "the world" is confused by Christianity.

There is actually one denomination that is right-- the one in which all saints have no other common denominator than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. That's how it was in the beginning.

And no, I am not espousing ecumenicism, the kind of unity that allows you to come together and acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ (at least in word) and keep your other common denominators in tact.

That is my thought brother that there have been many groups that have been a testimony that saw past all divisions in the body of Christ but did not make themselves an elite "only" best group thus becoming a denomination themselves. Therefore there is place for expressions of the body of Christ in different regions such as Paul reaching the Gentiles and the Apostles in Jerusalem reaching the Jews but they are still part of the One Body of Christ.

In the Principles volume we make the case and ask for saints to realize that there is one Church, one Body of Christ, one Kingdom of God and that to be a part of this does require them to join a seperate teacher, group or emphasis; http://gospelfellowshipstn.com/principles/

The chapter on God's People scattered in sects could help see how I see things, I am not anti-denominational:

--

PRINCIPLE 3 31
Principle 3
God’s People Scattered in Sects
WE SEE the beginning of a movement where God is waking up many of His sheep to hear His voice in the midst of the noise and rustle of the denominational confusion. God never intended His Church to be divided,72 confused and led back and forward with every wind of doctrine. "Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.”73
In the current setting of tens of thousands of sects and groups we believe the Lord has His people in almost every one of them. One brother speaking of his personal journey with the Lord felt that the Lord told him to "Leave Mount Ism’s and go to Mount Zion.” With such counsel we agree that the work of God would be much purer and a more brightly shining light in this current world system if saints left the Ism’s they were a part of and joined in unity, under the Headship of Jesus Christ. This does not necessarily mean a physical leaving of a church or denomination, but rather the departing from
72 1 Corinthians 1:10 73 Ephesians 4:14

Principles for the Gathering of Believers 32
these divisions in the hearts of God’s people. Jesus prayed in John 17 that they all may be one.74
There is a Biblical simplicity and truth that the true Church is always unified as one in God’s eyes. The Church today is in many ways unified in purpose spiritually, but unity rarely manifests physically in a locality. Yet it is the will of God for the local gathering of the body of Christ to be unified spiritually in a physical setting. The Chinese underground Church is a great example to us. They have eight major branches but are unified with respect to all major doctrines. God has allowed for different sects and groups to form with unique recoveries of truth in each generation. Yet in the end of the age each group must desire the true unity of the body of Christ.
In the end times God is calling for all believers to have the same mind as Jesus Christ in seeing the Church as one, for in heaven there will be only one Church and it is a called-out Assembly that glorifies God and walks in holiness.75 So we must look past all labels and denominations and see each true believer as God sees them. In 2 Timothy the Scriptures clearly show how God sees those who are His: "Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are His,’ and, ‘everyone who confesses the Name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.’”76 So we also see those in different sects and groups who are departing from sin and the ways of the world and we can have fellowship with them as we are on this similar pilgrim way.77
If we would have spiritual eyes to see the body of Christ as the Lord sees from heaven we would be shocked to see believers shining in white78 from all different denominations and sects. Though there is a precious gem of truth to be admired in each denominational group in that they perhaps have more light on a certain doctrine than others, the burden of the Lord for the end times Church is to have a unified body that shares all these truths in balance. The fullness of Christ is God’s ultimate end for each local body, a Bride without spot
74 John 17: 21
75 1 Peter 1:15-16, 1 Peter 1:22 76 2 Timothy 2:19
77 1 Peter 2:11
78 Revelation 3:5

PRINCIPLE 3 33
or blemish, or wrinkle.79 It should be every believer’s goal to be a part of a maturing gathering of believers80 where all grow up into full maturity. In the same way, it is every believer’s individual aim to become perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect.81 The Lord will have a Bride, His holy people,82 gathered in the end times under one banner: The Lord Jesus Christ.
There are many shining examples in Church history of those brothers and sisters who did not conform to patterns of men and doctrines of men but sought to be under the banner and Headship of Jesus Christ. One brother who was leading many saints into this reality said of his calling from God: "I was to bring people off from all the world’s religions, which are in vain.”83 Few believers today see that such things are vanity, because to promote a denomination in itself is vain; it is promoting the kingdom of man, which is spiritual Babylon. God can free us from all such things and release His body to build His kingdom as one Body.
A longing prayer of a godly saint from the past speaks of the need for a God birthed and God sustained work in gathering His body together: "I want to see something that God builds. I want to find some people so hungry for God that every night they want to pray and make intercession. We’ve tried every scheme and every fancy thing to try and work something up. But what we need is for somebody to come down. Some person! Not a new theology, a Person!”84
May God assemble His children together for His glory alone. So that the Person of Jesus Christ can be magnified and adored.
79 Ephesians 5:27
80 John 17:23
81 Matthew 5:48
82 Revelation 19:8, 2 Corinthians 1:1 83 George Fox (1624-1691)
84 Leonard Ravenhill (1907-1994)

The Evangelical church in America

Frank, firstly he is speaking to Churches in America. Secondly he is not saying that the structure is wrong he is saying they are simply becoming apostate in America. I agree and MANY assemblies in our day are becoming or have become apostate.

Tozer would not agree with you on leadership, structure, and things of that nature. He saw value and requirement in leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ. And you are using His quote to further your idea that saints need to depart from all denominations and join what you are calling the Body of Christ or the One Church that Jesus prayed for in John 17. My answer is that brethren are part of the true Church without having to leave denominations, groups that they are a part of. Secondly there is no "one" Church that Jesus Christ from heaven has said to Join above all others ie saints coming to my home to fellowship, your home or a renting or bought building that another brother has.

Ravenhill believed there needed to be a revival of existing denominational structures because he felt there was not time for new groups to start.

Tozer contended for a reformation of a new group to start. I personally more side with Tozer that there needs to be new group(s) to start in the world that carry the testimony of the Lord in these last days.

"evangelical" and "Denominations" would be the same term, the term evangelicals would category many denominations that fall under that category. And again it is not that the structure of them was wrong but that the life in them was waning and in some cases departed.

That may be the way things are now-- what you said about true-hearted brethren from various denominational backgrounds coming together in a spirit of unity for a gathering of some kind, "without having to leave denomianations."

I did also state that God always has new groups starting outside more apostate groups and these are "new wineskins". God of course is going to do this and is doing it in North America. My clarification to you brother is that that is much different then saying that all denominations are wrong and bad and finally now after 2000 years the Church will finally get it and meet apart from all structure, and leadership as it has been for 2000 years. I do not see that as healthy or right.

As I said earlier many groups have assembled outside larger lukewarm situations in christianity and God was with that new wineskin as well with those who were still apart of the larger group. Almost in every case in Church history I read there are multiple dissenting groups in the amidst of a few larger apostatizing ones. It is no different today.

That is much different then saying point blank that ALL are wrong unless they leave man-made (or so called) denominations and simply declare themselves Jesus Christ's. That is an over simplification, it goes against how true brethren have formed into testimonies of the Lord throughout the 2000 years of church history.

My concern and heart for brethren who have no fellowship, are not able to agree with all existing denominations, that they would check their hearts towards submission to authority in their lives. You simply do not see the call for brethren to be separate and accountable to God alone not paying heed to any man ever.

That will change once the saints begin to grasp the immensity of what God is doing.

There is a dangerous pride and spiritual elitism to think that ALL saints including all the speakers on SermonIndex really did not see God's best and in the end times God is going to really show the Church how to be the Church, such thinking was in the latter-rain movement that caused much hurt to the true body of Christ and some teachers are still infected with some of the wrong thinking and doctrines from this. Of course it is not all wrong and God in every generation has a Bride (not just in the end times) that is pure and looking for His coming. That Bride in every generation does not manifest as ONE body but in many from the eyes of men, but God see's its unity from heaven.

Brother Greg,

You keep making emphatic statements and when I give the quote to disprove your assertions, you never bother to redress the statements that you made that were simply wrong. I am not sure what to do with this.

"Tozer would not agree with you on leadership, structure, and things of that nature. He saw value and requirement in leadership in the Church of Jesus Christ."

Brother, I have lost count the number of times I have told you my opinion on leadership, yet you continue to bear me false witness on this, I really must ask you not to, unless you can quote me saying otherwise( which you cannot)I value Spirit filled and led leadership above all else not the traditions of men. In this thread I have quoted the Scripture about healthy leadership where God gave some apostles, some prophets , some evangelists, some teachers and pastors and so on. This is the word of God.

You write........

""evangelical" and "Denominations" would be the same term, the term evangelicals would category many denominations that fall under that category. And again it is not that the structure of them was wrong but that the life in them was waning and in some cases departed."

Now you have completely lost me. Just two posts ago you wrote this......

"To be more exact in responding to what you wrote about my response to Tozer is that he did not ask people to leave all "systems" but to leave evangelicalism to be a part of a new group that was more healthy. So there you have it, he did not preach against the evils of anyone who is in a denomination"

Perhaps you should more clearly try and explain yourself for the benefit of others reading this. You separated out evangelicals and denominations to try and water down what Tozer was saying and when I gave you the full quote where Tozer was very specific, you now want to say that the terms evangelical and denominations are synonyms. This seems to me pretzel like logic, much tortured twistings and turnings and no consistency in order to hold onto an original premise that denominationalism is healthy and perfectly in line with Scripture, which of course it is not........bro Frank

Greg write to Allan and says........

"That is much different then saying point blank that ALL are wrong unless they leave man-made (or so called) denominations and simply declare themselves Jesus Christ's. That is an over simplification, it goes against how true brethren have formed into testimonies of the Lord throughout the 2000 years of church history."

No one said all are wrong unless they leave anything. These are your words Greg. What has been pointed out is the original template and the question that has been asked is....
"Is denominationalism found in Scriptures. The answer? No.

Do we find sectarianism in the book in the NT? Yes we do and in 1 Cor 3 it is roundly condemned and taught that is is the essence of carnality. Now, this is what Scripture says. How does that translate into what we see today? One must ask themselves that question and then be led by the Word of God not by the traditions of men which is denominationalism............bro Frank

Brother, I have lost count the number of times I have told you my opinion on leadership, yet you continue to bear me false witness on this, I really must ask you not to, unless you can quote me saying otherwise( which you cannot)I value Spirit filled and led leadership above all else not the traditions of men. In this thread I have quoted the Scripture about healthy leadership where God gave some apostles, some prophets , some evangelists, some teachers and pastors and so on. This is the word of God.

Again Tozer was a part of a denomination: Christian Missionary Allance. And all their churches had 1 pastor who was over the church as Tozer was one over his in Chicago and Toronto. Your interpretation strictly on leadership in the church would differ from Tozer's, that is just fact. I could take the middle ground between a view of plural leadership under a 5 fold ministry and the 1 pastor model.

Perhaps you should more clearly try and explain yourself for the benefit of others reading this. You separated out evangelicals and denominations to try and water down what Tozer was saying and when I gave you the full quote where Tozer was very specific, you now want to say that the terms evangelical and denominations are synonyms. This seems to me pretzel like logic

Tozer did not see the system or denomination as unheathly unless it was apostate (meaning) the life of God was not in the group or sect. That is a world of difference between what you are saying brother to leave all systems of men (as you call them). Tozer did not call for that as much as you would like him to, he was calling for a leaving an establishing of a conservative, biblical, structured group that would look possibly in part like a denomination that was already existing but the proper life in it.

Tozer called people to possibly have to leave a dying Western Christianity because of the fact it was dying spiritually, not because it was all wrong in the way leadership or structure worked.

Tozer and others did always see the body of christ universal was spiritual and they accepted that and always sought fellowship along those lines as all true christians have and continue to do, no matter what part of the world, region or group we associate with.

"original premise that denominationalism is healthy and perfectly in line with Scripture"

I would not agree that I said that implicitly, as I posted part of what I wrote from the Principles volume that there is an unhealthiness to division in the body of Christ and that by virtue of being in the world the Lord allows His people to gather in different ways and the mature saint looks for fellowship of true brethren no matter what shirt they wear or context they appear in. I lean more on the side of contending and encouraging saints to look away from that one doctrine that can become an idol in a denomination and seek general unity of the body of Christ. That does not necessitate the leaving of denominations, for as I alluded to many of the denominations started off as MOST do with the goal and desire to be apostolic and they were or still are except for the lessening of the presence of God in their midst and trusting in the Lord and not men. Wineskins become old and crack.

I hope that is clear as anything I wrote. I have no agenda and am simply sharing my heart concern towards saints who would speak against all the work of God (through men) in the 2000 years of the Church. And to rightly share some facts towards any movement that you held up as a model for what you are expousing needs to happen. As I shared earlier Waldensians, Moravians or any "remnant" or brethren group had structured leadership that in many cases had 1 shepherd or pastor over the little flock of God.

the traditions of men which is denominationalism............bro Frank

So every single denomination of the 30,000 currently are all traditions of men? Was this always so when there were hundreds and thousands of specific dissenting groups during the reformation time?

Greg, you have now stated this three times in an effort to shore up a position that cannot be shored up......

"Again Tozer was a part of a denomination: Christian Missionary Allance."

You might want to check your facts again brother. Tozer was not part of a denomination, he had no time for them, would not even deem to mention them in his prophecy against the other groups that he did mention.

Christian Missionary Alliance only became a " denomination" in 1974. It was founded and had always been a missionary gathering and in fact they did not even call there gatherings " churches," but instead used the term " branches." ...............bro Frank

Greg writes..........

"So every single denomination of the 30,000 currently are all traditions of men? Was this always so when there were hundreds and thousands of specific dissenting groups during the reformation time?

When men follow their own designs and deem that they are wiser than the Scriptures in matters of gathering then it indeed qualifies itself to be called " traditions of men." The ancient brethren and so called waldenses only considered themselves brothers and sisters. They did not " denominate." They were simply brothers and sisters and as bro Allan pointed out their common denominator was Jesus and the Word of God and not a specific theology or tradition such as "Calvanism."............bro Frank

talk about beating a dead horse

I am going to stop here in this thread brother after making myself very clear. I disagree with your view of the Alliance church not having "Churches" or considering themselves as such. It was a highly structured organized network of churches planting other churches with the main goal of the great commission as the reason for their aligning together.

I have changed and grown in my view of the Lord's Church and I pray I will continue to follow the Lamb of God and His voice. I trust we can all guard against stubbornness, unyieldingness, having submission to others in our lives.

In this thread I spoke from a small "s" shepherds heart of concern over these things. As a moderator due to the fact that we do not encourage saints to continue to post their own writings or continue to promote any specific one doctrine or idea over and over again. Thus I have felt the necessity to bring a balance to some of the thoughts here.

I appreciate you considering and other brethren anything I shared, I submit it in the name of our Lord and in His love for the body with all my flaws of this clay vessel.

I think this thread was very important and I could tell from the e-mails that many others did too. One thing that can be said is that we all know where we stand that is for sure :) Just the way I prefer it actually. God bless all that participated in and followed this thread and for the encouragements by e-mail............. bro Frank

How to Set a Church on Fire-Ian Paisley

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=10612959587

In restricted nations persecuted believers are not known as the persecuted Baptist, persecuted Methodist, or persecuted Presbyterians. But they are known as the persecuted church. That is those believers who gather around the cross of Christ.

I believe a time of persecution will come up on the faith remnant bride in America. And those doing the persecuting will the established evangelical denominations that value their sacred 501c status.

There is already a compromise taking place in established denominations Many accepting the LBGT agenda. Such denominations obtaining homosexual gay pastors.

I agree with the OP. Denominations are man-made and not Biblical. For the most part denominations are dead. They do not have the life of the Spirit.

The true remnant will be found in house churches or small fellowships doing the work of the kingdom.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster

The last credible move of God in this nation`s history was the Jesus Movement. A movement that occurred outside of denominational churches. Indeed the Jesus Movement was disdained by the organised denominational structures. Yet the Spirit moved and small spontaneous fellowships started that nurtured New believers. Tragically it was organised Christendom used by Satan that killed this movement.

The next movement of God will be outside of the denominational structure. In the eyes of God denominations are irrellevant. What matters is Christ dwelling in the heart of the individual.

Bearmaster.

And brethren that is precisely the problem. Men see the glory if God and they want to build a structure to contain it. Alla denominations.

Christ does not reside in denominations but humble hearts yielded to Him.

Jesus is coming back for a bride composed of people not buildings.

Jesus defined a church as two or three gathered together in Him. Not a church religious structure.

My prayer is for a remnant to emerge who gather around the simplicity of Christ and His Word. This remnant will be a new wine skin who gather in the simplicity and purity devotion to Christ. This remnant will meet in Hones, restaurants, dorm rooms, etc. When persecuted this remnant will meet in the woods, caves, and holes in the grounds.

But this remnant will have the life of Christ. People will be drawn to it. Because of this the established denominational structure will persecute it. Something I see in this forum.

Bearmaster.

Everyone is in agreement about this. The issue at hand is not a defence of the conventional church structure nor a defence of denominational systems.

The issue at hand, is God still at work with certain individuals and fellowships that resemble the conventional church structure ? And I believe the answer is yes!
The beauty of sermon index is that Greg and others have searched across denominational lines picking preachers and sermons of those whom trully Love the Lord.
Sermon index has pentecostal preachers such as Hans Waldvogel, Anabaptist such as Denny Kenaston, Calvinist Baptist such as Spurgeon and Paul Washer, Southern Baptist such as David Platt, and so on and so on. May we also accept those whom trully Love the Lord.

Excellent post brother, this is probably a reasonable middle ground to end this thread. There were some differences of opinion yet to divide and hurt other true brethren over these things as another brother stated is not worth it. All movements of God throughout history were not wrong, may God bring humility to all of us in our thinking and especially shown us the great need to be practically involved with other brethren in local assemblies.

this thread is now locked.