Please, no more Catholic bashing

brothers and sisters,I am appealing to you all that we stop this. Though we may not agree with all of their beliefs, still a hungry soul is a hungry soul. I have some dear friends who are catholic whom i have sent here to listen to a sermon. I feel terrible that they have come here and seen the title of sooo many of the posts.I have had a few catholics who, on their own, have subscribed to my xanga journal as well as my website because they search for the truth, and they love Jesus. I suggest sermons on SI and different articles. That is my understanding of how to be a light to them or anyone else.Why would they even stay long enough to listen to a sermon if they see these posts? I don't want my witness to be lost or the witness of SI.There are hungry people in every denomination- Catholic, methodist, baptist, whatever. In ever church and every denomination there are lost and decieved people- as well as hungry ones whom the Lord is calling softly to Himself. Let us not be a hindrence to that. Let us be waiting with love and open arms, with "food" and living water for those who are searching for truth.I can't imagine how many might have hardened their hearts already by coming by SI and reading just the title of the posts lately.In His love, Chanin

Chanin,The Roman Catholic Church is NOT a denomination of true Christianity. It is a cult. The reason we expose the RCC is because we LOVE precious Roman Catholics and want to lead them to Christ. You cannot agree with a lie and expose it at the same time.We must speak the truth in love. Only the knowledge of the Truth will set people free. If you really love Roman Catholics, you will tell them the truth. You will be honest with them about their pagan institution and gently lead them to the Saviour.This is our goal. You can't pretend they are Christians. It would be deceptive to do so. It would be against my conscience in the Holy Ghost. The love of God constrains us to preach the truth.I would rather a Roman Catholic be mad at me now, than have them scream at me from Hell for not telling them. I hope you would too.Blessings,TR

You accused us of bashing the Catholic church, but it seems that you don't even believe what they believe. I do disagree with them on salvation. They say it is by works and we say it is through faith alone. But you know what, we both agree that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world and that makes Him the Savior. So it seems you don't even believe what your own church is teaching. I have many problems with the Catholic churches beliefs, but I don't go around bashing them. We will all stand before God one day and have to account for what we did with the knowledge we had of His Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only door leading to heaven and the Father. All other doors lead straight to hell. That might sound blunt or uncaring but it isn't. It is just the truth and I will continue to proclaim it so that maybe a few more people will come through the right door.

Neilgin1,Who's Catholic bashing? I haven't seen ANY Catholic bashing (i.e. bashing Roman Catholics). All I have seen is a love for them. As per the RCC institution, it IS all over the news ALL of the time now. The only reason I think it is receiving so much attention here is because it is timely.Folks want to know the truth. I hope you wouldn't deny them that.As per your fear of calling the NIV "corrupted," lets get a definition of corruption: Corrupt: "changed in meaning or form, or deviating from the standard (of language usage or of manuscript reading). Ex. "Sparrowgrass" is a corrupt spelling of "asparagus." The corrupt manuscript was full of errors made in copying from the original."In this definition of the word "corrupt", the NIV is corrupt. Jesus thought it NOT robbery to be equal with God. (Phil. 2:6) The NIV denies this. Definition: Corruption.If you want to settle for a little corruption in your Bible, that is your business. I'm not bashing, blaming, or accusing you. I am just stating fact and discussing the issue. Jesus loves you and so do I.Blessings,TR

There is a place for correcting an error in love, I think we will all agree. There is also such a thing as an obsession. Lets look very quickly at the example of Paul the apostle. Did he preach truth? Certainly. He preached the truth of the gospel. Did he show people error? Yes, read Acts 17 he told the idol worshipers that God was not worshiped with men's hands. Was he obsessed? Obsessed with the gospl and with it's Author, but no with tearing down falsehood. He courteoulsy and quickly showed the error to those practicing it, and went on to decalre the truth. Read Acts 17 again.Here is the testimony of the town clerk of epheses about Paul:Ac 19:37 For ye have brought these men, who are neither temple-plunderers, nor speak injuriously of your goddess.Paul certainly did not promote the worship of anyone or anything other than the God of Israel, nor was he secretive about his belief - but neither was he unmannerly. If one truly has a desire to reach the lost he will have compassion for them, this will be evident in their speech.

If you want to settle for a little corruption in your Bible, that is your business. I'm not bashing, blaming, or accusing you. I am just stating fact and discussing the issue. Jesus loves you and so do I.There are two words here that need never be in the same sentence in my estimation: corruption and Bible. Certainly there are translations that I would refrain from using when studying or teaching; but 'corrupt' is a strong word and it casts doubt on all versions as people simply don't know what to trust. Not only that, not all God fearing scholars agree on all the particulars of these things. It is topics like this that the enemy uses to 'sift' the faith of new converts or those who are unstable when the posts are strong and come off like this. We must not allow our strong convictions to become a weapon in the enemies hand.

RobertW,What do you think of this sentence?:Jehovah's Witnesses have translated a corrupt Bible version called the New World Translation.Was that sentence blasphemy? Or was it the truth?Try not to let your emotions rule your posting. Blessings,TR

Jehovah's Witnesses have translated a corrupt Bible version called the New World Translation.I am quite familiar with the JW's and their teachings. I am also familiar with their version of the scriptures. When debating with them always establish YOUR sources before you begin discussions. For me, I lay aside my KJV and pull out my Interlinear Bible. Was that sentence blasphemy? Or was it the truth?Was it Truth as in "inspired by the Holy Ghost" or truth as in "accurate based upon the known facts" in the case? Your words are not to be juxtaposed as Truth over against blasphemy as the canon of scripture is closed and the revelation of eternal Truth is complete.Try not to let your emotions rule your posting.I do. I try to employ wisdom.

Thanks Karl,Whew... you guys are taxing this poor moderator dude (poor guy) ;-) Of course I am trying to lighten things up here a bit.In the other recent rant of want of expression was just trying to get some balance brought in here. It's not an either/or construct and not that it matters all that much in opinion, but some of the same things Karl is stating here were attempted there. Our newest member here, RecievedText and a warm welcome to you again brother, is not out of line in what he brought forth originally, this is a topic ready on our lips because of recent developments. Had spoken with him a bit earlier and he was very cordial, being somewhat unfamiliar with the site and very appreciative of his understanding in what the attempts around here are.So to allude back to the 'plea' shall we not be so quick to make presumptions and also not so quick to be 'offended' all these things are not to sidestep anyone or accuse anyone, goodness it is toward the whole.Agree with both Chanin and even with Krispy and RT. There must be a better way of going about these things and maybe it is just in reading into to much that is said or misunderstanding the context or motives behind it all. Surely some of it could be couched in different language at times but shouldn't it all be taken into consideration?I know I am just as guilty of offering up a problem without a proposed solution and the sentiment is not towards doing away with anything because it is uncomfortable nor is it necessary to be blasting caps towards those that may be caught up in it. This particular issue is one where I cannot think of one disagreement that the 'system' is corrupt and frankly in many ways with more things being brought to consider even worse than we might have come to know. These things need not be dismissed or relegated to some kind of 'off limits' approach. There are terrible things being done in the name of our Lord and they are not limited to just the RCC, again the danger is in going to extremes, 'either/or', as soon as one brings this up the sense is to stop talking about it, an imaginary line is drawn in the sand and it feeds into the idea of taking 'sides', totally unnecessary. Same goes for the opposite, that by keeping it 'alive', it is open season to just beat the thing into the ground. Surely that in itself is a bit over the top as an example.Some of the pronouncements we could certainly do without, don't think that is an area we have any business meddling in and there is a need for some tact here, as Chanin well brought up, what of those who are caught up in these things?There are many other issues we have had strong discussions about here, the PDL, WOF, BH and it can get the best of us, while we lose sight of the people being affected.I don't have a perfect answer here for any of this, just caution and being aware of others, a bit to chew on and pray about.

ReceivedText wrote:Chanin,The Roman Catholic Church is NOT a denomination of true Christianity. It is a cult. The reason we expose the RCC is because we LOVE precious Roman Catholics and want to lead them to Christ. You cannot agree with a lie and expose it at the same time.In that case, neither is protestantism. Consider Luther's reaction to the Anabaptist, and not to mention his antisemitism. What about Calvinist persecution of the Arminians. Now, the whole faith movement, prosperity, third wave, holiness, grace... When are we going to figure out, that every banner is corrupt, and that every banner is flown over a remnant minority within. I believe that this is Channin's point.

There must be a better way of going about these things and maybe it is just in reading into to much that is said or misunderstanding the context or motives behind it all. Surely some of it could be couched in different language at times but shouldn't it all be taken into consideration?I don't have a perfect answer here for any of this, just caution and being aware of others, a bit to chew on and pray about.Good Word Mike. I've been posting very little lately, but reading much. Personally, I like exposure. I like things upfront and honest so I can weigh things out and take it to the Word of God........or just put it on a shelf for later use/ponderings. The problem as you said is that some people do this in such a way that some become offended (rightly or wrongly). I am offended with much in the RC Church (was myself baptized as an infant and partook of first communion in the RC Church), but in the same breath, personally know and love people in this organization. I'm not shy about my views on their practices and the Lord has been good to provide plenty of opportunities to share the Word of God with a Catholic neighbor who struggles much in her understanding of the Lord. As much as I am grieved with RC doctine and practice, I was a bit taken aback by David Ravenhill's words on the Pope. I think what some may see (rightly or wrongly) is that there "seems" to be an element of glee in knowing the Pope is burning in hell........or that he is now living a nightmare. That bothers me. That is the type of stuff which should not be occurring, if that was the intent/heart of that writing. Did the Pope lead many, many astray? Absolutely. However, he was a human being and it is grieving to think he may be spending an eternity in torment. I say "may" because I personally will not be so presumptuous to believe and teach that anyone is unredeemable who believes that Christ is the Saviour of mankind, but teaches false doctrine. Truth be told, the Catholic Church does not hold the market on false doctrine. There is plenty of false doctrine going around these days in the protestant churches. It is even believed by some in the election/predestination camp (of which I belong), that freewill proponents are lost in their sins because they believe in a "works salvation"----they have to "do" something to be saved----they have to say "yes", which to some Calvinists is a work. I do not believe this. Sigh......I'm just not that smart. I will leave that final decision of destination up to God. What I think we should do is preach the truth IN LOVE and let the chips fall where they may. The Word of God doesn't say we are only to preach the Word when it's convenient, when it "seems" like the right time----it says to preach the Word IN SEASON and OUT of season. Unless I misunderstand that, it means to preach the truth at ALL times. So, in a VERY long-winded way I am agreeing with Mike. Doctrine/practices DO need to be discussed, but IMHO determining as fact someone's lack of salvation who professes Christ, that we should not do.I think as believers we need to remember this important truth: believers (yes, even mature ones) get wounded too by other believers. I think we are seeing this with some of the posters who have voiced they are leaving or "standing back" for awhile. Sometimes those who are more evangelistically minded/gifted lose focus on the importance of the portion of the Body of Christ that is "Body focused"----because their main focus is on the lost. We should respect and value ALL our brothers and sisters and realize that God has not called us to be cookie cutter believers. We are all unique and gifted sometimes very differently. Sometimes it seems so differently that we seem to be on opposite planes, but in reality that is not so. Each of us was formed and is being formed as God sees fit----for the benefit of HIS purposes. I think we lose sight of that sometimes. At least I know I do when I get frustrated or irritated at another's walk. The understanding of the value of each and every member of the Body is important. We may not like someone's demeanor/personality or their ministry "bent", but that's where we need to "get over ourselves" and we need to quit looking into heart motives of someone and just address their words, if those words are sinful/unbiblical. It's much more productive and much less destructive to the Body. I think it was either Oswald Chambers or Tozer (can't remember cause I've read so much lately).......that certain types of people who rub us the wrong way are placed in our lives for a reason-----the reason is GROWTH and GRACE. It's easy to like someone who is nice and pleasant. It is a real struggle to get along with others and have grace towards those who are brash, abupt, no holes barred, etc. I am living this right now and it's NOT fun, but I do know that the Lord is using this to purge stuff from me that is not pretty, stuff that would lay hidden if it were not brought to the surface. We each should thank the Lord for every person, believer or unbeliever who rubs us the wrong way and look at it as an occasion to grow in Grace and God's love. He loves us, doesn't He and there's a whole bunch of yuk in most of us? The reason I even bring up the rubbing the wrong way is due to the many offenses I've seen here lately. I dont' really think it is doctrinal discussions as much as personality/ministry bent differences. At least it appears that way to me. Anyways, I love you all and am thankful for each and every one of you----even those who may rub me the wrong way. I have grown here. The one thing that led me and kept me reading the forums is the manner in which things were discussed (upfront AND respectful). The fact that "hard things" were even allowed to be discussed here in depth was refreshing. That is VERY different from most Christian boards. I hope the openness and respectful nature of discussion continues............Blessings in Jesus, Cindy :-)

In that case, neither is protestantism.So do to wrongs make a right? I am not a Lutheran nor a Calvinist. I am a Bible Believing Christian. What you write does not have anything to do with Rome being the whore of Rev. 17 and an antichrist church.You are right. We should not desire meaningless labels. But when we recognize an organized institution such as this that embodies blasphemy, the truth must be said. If everyone agreed that Rome was a cult, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Unfortunately the opposite is true today.You have Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson singing the pope's praises calling him a man of God. You can't be pope and be a man of God. You can't preside over blatantly damning heresy (i.e. doctrine that if you believe it disqualifies you for heaven) and be a man of God. Or can you? Was Joseph Smith a man of God? Help me here. Was Brigham Young a man of God?

:-) :-D To Be United in the name of Jesus Christ who bring peace to us through the Holy Spirit that gives understading to our dim minds.Be of good cheers my brothers and sister concern yourself in your own salvation that you may be welcome by our savior as a good and faithful servant of Christ.

by Heavenlyman on 2005/4/24 3:12:50To Be United in the name of Jesus Christ who bring peace to us through the Holy Spirit that gives understading to our dim minds.Be of good cheers my brothers and sister concern yourself in your own salvation that you may be welcome by our savior as a good and faithful servant of Christ.Amen.

Be of good cheers my brothers and sister concern yourself in your own salvation that you may be welcome by our savior as a good and faithful servant of Christ. AMEN as well.as we have said that it is good to expose things and state the truth (which we have done numerous, numerous times) i stil believe that we have got to say "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."in Christ, Chanin

You have Billy Graham, Benny Hinn, and Pat Robertson singing the pope's praises calling him a man of God. You can't be pope and be a man of God. You can't preside over blatantly damning heresyThats a pretty bold claim man. I'm sure one of your problems with the pope is the fact that catholics think he is God's man main hear on earth, but it seems to me with a claim like that you are now putting yourself in that spot. Lets leave the convicting up to God and do what we are supposed to do in sharing the Gospel. Let me put it this way. Maybe I have a homosexual non-christian friend. Do I a) say to him, "hey your gay and because your gay you are going to hell."or b) share Christ with him and pray for him and let God be the convictor of his sins. My wife's whole family is catholic. I'll be the first to say that alot of these people have a misunderstanding of salvation. But they are good people who have a hunger for God. How about a little love and truth about Christ instead of condemnation?

Maybe I have a homosexual non-christian friend. Do I a) say to him, "hey your gay and because your gay you are going to hell."or b) share Christ with him and pray for him and let God be the convictor of his sins. I do understand your example, but it's really not that good of an example, your friend may be effecting only a few lives that are close to him and they are willing to be in his life, Pastors and people like Benny Hinn, Billy Graham and the Pope what they say and do are effecting millions.

There are two seperate points. One being how do we evangelize to people who need to hear the Gospel and two are we in a position to convict other people and state whether they are godly men or not? That 'friend' example was to emphasize the first point. My second point I had no support other than it is biblically unfounded.

Quote:Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."Exactly :-D Amen Chanin.It's the word of God who convict through the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Spirit do His job and we do our own work as children of the Living God.

I have a few friends who are catholics my housemate and he has checked out this site? He listened to billy graham and liked it? Hopefully I will get him on stronger stuff. Dont talk about this subject in Ireland you may get shot.

deltadom wrote:Dont talk about this subject in Ireland you may get shot. Many have probably been shot all over the world for telling the "TRUTH" :-P

Many have probably been shot all over the world for telling the "TRUTH" Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus...

Brother (or sister) Received Text...Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

DeltadomYou can talk about any subject in Ireland in fact there are more catholics questioing the whole pope thing than you could imagine.Now talking about it in an English accent? (joke)Paul

Gen 35:2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:

If we but speak the truth in Love, that is the truth of what the bible teaches, then the Holy Spirit has good seed for a harvest. But if the seed is sewn with sharp stones, it probably won't surviveLove will reach deeper into a heart than cold hard facts and statistics. We may be correct in our so called "facts", but the right way is charity. Why? Because it's God's way.Laury, You say so much that speaks to my heart. These were good and edifying words. Blessings to you. In Him, Cindy :-)

Sister Chanin,When i first came to this site it could have been misconstrued that you were pretty rough on organized Protestant denoms in the vein of the "Christian City" site you sent me and the fact that you'd dis-associated yourself from the organized church, but now you seem to be for a kinder gentler stance on Catholicism ... In light of my thinking that your stance on the Protestant (for lack of better delineation) Church was due to Holy Spirit's touch on you in pointing to repentance out from error my questions now are ...- What has changed in you, and why? ...- Has Christ, or you, altered a change of heart/mind within regarding how error should be addressed?- Have you now come to the conclusion that you, your motives, or delivery were wrong in what you've said about "Christian City"?i ask solely because i want to know, and especiallt so since most of the anti-RCC posts have clearly stated that they were against the false doctrines of the RCC and not practising Catholics themselves ...It's been my experience that even when the primary motive is love as in Christ case, folk have a tendency to take offence if they're more interested in holding onto their error (in any religion) than seeking the true "truth" ... i hear Holy Spirit directing me towards operating in the love of Christ in pointing out error, but i never hear Him telling me to be PC ...

Well put.As for protestants, the right wing types sure like the new Pope's stance on life, homosex, abortion and other such facets...How convenient...At least the Catholic Church has the guts to oppose capital punishment.

Where do I even begin to explain this. Maturity. experience, maybe.Yes, I am against any system whether it be christian city (the church system), the RC, whatever (even church goers on here will disagree on here what is "ok" and what is not- as far as that all goes)I have read so many books and read so many opinions about who is right and who is not - even among christians- that i have been worn completely out.No I don't agree with Purpose Driven Life tactics and Joel Osteen tactics - just as I don't agree with the catholic churches ways-- but you know what? you get know where dwelling on it and pointing it out to people all the time. (not that there won't be opportunities to say things- because there will be- but it should not be an "agenda")All it does it bring me down, confuse me more and hurt the people i love.I have found for me that it is better to live the truth, to live what I believe as a living testimony- than to continue and judge. Yes, there will be opportunities to say things here and there- but going around and spouting out what I think I believe is the only truth -is just not doing anyone any good.I really don't have the time or the energy to explain all that i'd like to say.I mean some of these people who I have been saying are "wrong"- have turned out to the be the ones who have treated me with more love and kindness than anyone that i might know to be "right" in all of their beliefs. Just because someone professes to know "truth" and they can say all the right language- does not mean anything is "right" about their hearts. It's just an outward expresion. it's just head knowledge.How do you know if someone is living like they should? They are Christ-like. They are humble. They come to serve and offer themselves.I recently picked up the book Fool's Gold by John MacArthur because i heard that it exposed alot of the "Purpose Driven life", "Wild At Heart", watered down gospel. As I am reading and I am agreeing with some- though, some is pretty nit-picky, if you ask me- I get to some other pages where he denies the process of surrender (what he says if the "deeper life".) There are things like that that I have experienced in my own life and know to be true and here he is saying that it is not right. (our recent church was also against this "deeper life").All I can say is I am just tired of everyone thinking they have all the answers as to who is right and who is not. You just can't sort it all out.It drove me to say, "ok Lord. I'll just follow YOU. I'm not looking at everybody else and what they're doing. I am looking at YOU and following YOU.As I get older and the longer I walk my walk with the Lord- the more He decreases me and He increases in me. I can't operate in my own zeal anymore. I can only operate in what He gives me to do. If that is only to be a servant to those who need it, then so be it.I am nothing. He is everything. When i get to the judgement seat, I will not be judged on how well I judged. I will judged on how I obeyed the Lord in my own life. I will be judged on how I loved Him and surrendered my all for Him. I will be judged on how I gave my life, my desires and my wants and my will up for others.Maybe i have changed a bit from my more zealous, flesh operating self -to wanting to be spirit led and operating with humility.I honestly can't say that coming on SI and seeing about 5 or 6 threads on catholicism and how they are the antichrist is going to bring anyone to Christ.I am sure that everyone on here already knows the false beliefs of Catholicism- AS WELL AS MANY OTHER CHURCHES (I HOPE). if we are going to pick on people and examine them out- why not our own hearts. Why not our own selves? Why not our own churches? Why not examine the idolatry and adultery in your normal everyday Baptist church. Your everyday pentecostal church? Idolatry is not just in Catholic churches or in Buddist temples. It's among us.This is my point. WE ALL NEED WORK. WE ALL NEED EXAMINING. WE ALL NEED TO REPENT. As for me, I will start with me. Do i have idolatry in my heart? Am I committing adultery against my heavenly Husband? Do I have other loves in my life that i am unwilling to let go of? My own opinions, man's teaching, my rights- even to be right. my time and how it is spent? My hobbies?None of us is wwhere we should be. Why are we presenting ourselves as if we are so good and pure, while the rest of everybody else is just "all wrong".Does this ring a bell?The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. Oh, i've gone on a rant now. help me Jesus.I am probably not making myself too clear here. I am just so aware of hypocrites. Hypocrites in the church, in the body of Christ, in me. Whitewashed tombs. Clean on the outside for everyone's eyes- yet so unclean inside.may it not be so.In His love, Chanin

This is my point. WE ALL NEED WORK. WE ALL NEED EXAMINING. WE ALL NEED TO REPENT. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Because of the great emphasis on Sacred Tradition within the Catholic Church and because so many Roman Catholics appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, the Word of God is often placed after the Catholic Church itself in relation to authority. Because of this, many Catholics appeal to their works, in combination with the sacrifice of Christ as a means of being justified before God. The Council of Trent expresses this plainly:"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14). Justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner where God declares the sinner righteous in His sight. This justification is based completely and solely on the work of Christ on the cross. We cannot earn justification or merit justification in any way. If we could, then Christ died needlessly. "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). Because righteousness cannot come through the Law (through our efforts of merit), the Bible declares that we are justified before God by faith:•\t"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28). •\t"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3). •\t"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5). •\t"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). •\t"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8). However, in Roman Catholicism, justification by faith is denied."If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent). Which are we to believe? The Roman Catholic Church or God's word? Furthermore, the RCC states that justification is received not by faith, but by baptism. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph, 1992, that "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." This means that faith is not the instrument of obtaining justification; instead, it is an ordinance performed by a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. Furthermore, baptism is only the initial grace along the road of justification. The Roman Catholic is to then maintain his position before God by his efforts. "No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027). The problem here is that the RCC is teaching us to "merit for ourselves and for others all the graces need to attain eternal life." You cannot merit grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Merit is according to the CCC, par. 2006, "...the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment..." CCC 2006. This means that merit is something owed. By contrast, grace is something not owed. Therefore, the RCC is teaching contrary to God's word regarding grace and justification. The sad result is that in Roman Catholicism, justification before God is a process that is maintained by the effort and works of the Roman Catholic. This is a very unfortunate teaching since it puts the unbearable burden of works righteousness upon the shoulders of the sinner. By contrast, the Bible teaches that justification/salvation is by faith.•\t"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5). •\t"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). •\t"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8). The Gospel for Roman Catholics The Gospel for Roman Catholics is the same as for anyone else and it is obtained by grace through faith in believing and trusting in Jesus alone, who is God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not found in a true church. Salvation is not found in being good. Salvation is not found in good works. Salvation is not found in a sincere heart. Salvation is not found in making up for past sins by efforts of restoration, or penance, or indulgences. You can never do enough to please God. Because God is so infinitely holy and righteous, and because we are sinners, we are incapable of pleasing God by anything that we do. In fact, our righteous deeds are considered filthy rags before God (Isa. 64:6). You can do nothing to earn forgiveness or keep forgiveness. Salvation before God is not administered to us through an earthly priest in the Catholic by the sprinkling of water, or giving of penance, or recitation of formula prayers. Salvation for the Christian is not kept through the effort of the person who hopes and tries and worries about being good enough to stay saved. Such error can only lead to despair and hopelessness and a desperate and unwarranted dependence on the Roman Catholic Church as the only means by which salvation can be distributed and maintained. In this error, people far too often seek to work their way to heaven by being good, by doing what the Catholic church teaches them to do, by prayers to Mary, by indulgences, by the Rosary, and by a host of other man-made works. Remember, in the RCC, salvation is through the Church and its sacraments, not through Jesus alone, by faith alone. This is exactly how the cults of Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses work who both teach that true salvation is found only in their church membership and in following the revelation and authority of their church teachers and traditions.Are you tired of the works requirement? In great contrast to the position of the Roman Catholic Church, if you want to be forgiven of your sins, once and for all, then you need to come to Christ (Matt. 11:28). You need to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior (John 1:12; Rom. 10:13). You need to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins (John 14:14), and trust in Him alone and in nothing that you can do. Remember, your good deeds have no merit before God (Isa. 64:6). Furthermore, if you have faith, it is because that faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29). If you believe, it is because God has granted that you believe (Phil. 1:29). It is not because you were baptized, or have been good, or have been sincere. It is all of God. The Lord must receive all the glory for salvation because it completely and totally rests in Him. Salvation rests in Christ alone and it is received by faith apart from works. Please read the following scriptures carefully.1.\t"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Rom. 3:23). 2.\t"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord," (Rom. 6:23). 3.\t"and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24). 4.\t"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him," (2 Cor. 5:21). 5.\t"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it," (John 14:14). 6.\t"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls," (Matt. 11:28-29). 7.\t"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12). 8.\t"I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). 9.\t"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28). 10.\t"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3). 11.\t"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5). 12.\t"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life," (1 John 5:13). So I say tell them the truth.The bible is a two edeged sword.Live by it and proclaim its truth for when we start agreeing with a false religon we walk on dangerous grounds.

I GIVE UP! Blessings. May you all be rewarded for picking and picking at it. You have made my day. Off to the Dr.s now for my 3 month check up - if anyone would like to remember to pray. :)In Christ, Chanin

Judgement65,Good word! Surely you have beautiful feet!Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Maybe we should change the name of this thread to: Please, no more bashing. :-P

Thanks sister Chanin,You wrote;"I am probably not making myself too clear here"No to the contrary, you've answered my questions ... You're tired ... i know what that's like ...Quotes;"i have been worn completely out"."All it does it bring me down, confuse me more and hurt the people i love"."I really don't have the time or the energy to explain all that i'd like to say"."All I can say is I am just tired of everyone thinking they have all the answers as to who is right and who is not. You just can't sort it all out"."I can't operate in my own zeal anymore. I can only operate in what He gives me to do. If that is only to be a servant to those who need it, then so be it"."Maybe i have changed a bit from my more zealous, flesh operating self-to wanting to be spirit led and operating with humility".The "Jabbok" is a rough time, it takes all the energy of our natural man then cripples us, but it prepares us for "Peniel" and a greater purity to God's clearer purpose of us ...Quote;"None of us is where we should be. Why are we presenting ourselves as if we are so good and pure, while the rest of everybody else is just "all wrong".Does this ring a bell?The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector" ...Amen ... anyone operating from the above scripture is a hypocrite ... But do you think that the calling out of sin is really as simple as individual self examination to repentance? ... i for one really don't think so because even back in a day where folk actually believed in "prophets" (those sent by God to point out error) oft capable of signs and wonders, folk didn't heed, and now we live in a time where God seems to solely use men (sans the miraculous) toward the outreach to other men with even less results ... God's always gonna call men to an office of pointing out error, right on up to the very end with the "two witnesses" of the Revelation ... We may not like it, we may get tired of it, and we may even get tired of doing it if we happen to be called of God to do so, in fact we might even quit if we can overcome the unction, but rest assured God's always gonna have someone doing it! ...i noticed you stated you've changed "a bit from my more zealous, flesh operating self" ... If in fact "flesh" was your motivator then praise God for your change, as i hope we all would be open to such change if we are capable to hear/see what Holy Spirit shows us about our motives for pointing out error ... But if the persons pointing out error are from God that's their job and i hope they'll always obey God as ruler rather than men ...

God's always gonna call men to an office of pointing out error, right on up to the very end with the "two witnesses" of the Revelation ... We may not like it, we may get tired of it, and we may even get tired of doing it if we happen to be called of God to do so, in fact we might even quit if we can overcome the unction, but rest assured God's always gonna have someone doing it! ...But if the persons pointing out error are from God that's their job and i hope they'll always obey God as ruler rather than men ...Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. andEze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

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solabible wrote:andI have to admit, I was quite surprized to see this 'extra-biblical' linking conjunction in your post. ;-) Dan/\\/\\/\\

I have to admit, I was quite surprized to see this 'extra-biblical' linking conjunction in your post. Call it a "chain reference".

Well I went to Catholic school and when I was in Computer class on a 1st generation Apple I logged myself off on mistake...I was about 8 or 9 and the Library Sister came over and needed to type in a password, she typed666! I looked at it and froze and looked straight at her she then turned red and walked away.I did in fact end up getting kicked out of that school.Also on day in class they asked who we wanted to be like, at first I looked at the Cross and thought Jesus, but I knew if I said that I would get in trouble so I said the POPE....Well I was Yelled at and told that a bad boy like me could never be like the Pope.Then there was the time I wanted to be a alter boy however I was told to get out of line because I was not good enough to serve.I could go on and on but I don't want to bash any Catholics.I am a catholic my parents are Charismatic Catholics, However that’s just a Title in Truth I’m no more catholic than a Jew is Islamic.Catholics have many doctrinal flaws the problem is the main one goes against the 1st commandment.Thou shalt not have any other Gods but ME.They Worship Mary and pray to Her and give her a Divine Part in the Trinity. I was taught to Pray to Mary, I was forced to Pray to the Saints.I was made to Take the Name of saint for my Confermation... Francis. There Churches are dead how can a Christian not bash what is against God?Hear this, in the Coming months The new Pope will make real nice with other Christian sects and they will form a bond. This bond will lead to other more sinister things.Peace Peace but there will be no room for those who Truly Love Christ.Catholics are not all Christians and those who say Lord Lord are not all Christians.However when you see a man dressed like a Emperor with crowds clamoring to kiss his hand then we gots a problem.You might say well everyone has sin but The Bible says that Jesus was a man of Meekness.The Pope looks like a King with many subjects.If I taught a man to pray to Buddha would I be a Christian.If I took your child and made him Pray to Athena would you mind.Lets get one thing straight don't mess with God's People... unfortunately the Catholic doctrine does just that. You say don't bash I say make the way straight for the coming of the Lord.

Hear this, in the Coming months The new Pope will make real nice with other Christian sects and they will form a bond. This bond will lead to other more sinister things.Pope Wants Religious 'Bridges of Friendship'Foxnews.comVATICAN CITY — A day after reaching out to other Christians and to Jews in his installation Mass, Pope Benedict XVI (search) met Monday with members of the Muslim community, assuring them the church wanted to continue building "bridges of friendship" that he said could foster peace in the world. The Vatican did not say which Muslim leaders attended the meeting, which was closed to the press.But it did release a list of those who attended Sunday's Mass, including Saeed Taghavi, head of the office of religious minorities in Iran's culture ministry, and the head of Rome's central mosque.Two dozen Buddhist representatives also were on the list, which included the Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams; Metropolitan Chrisostomos, a top envoy for Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, the spiritual leader of the world's Christian Orthodox Church; and a senior representative of the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Kirill.Most Jewish leaders could not attend the Mass because it coincided with Passover."I assure you that the church wants to continue building bridges of friendship with the followers of all religions, in order to seek the true good of every person and of society as a whole," Benedict said.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Chanin, I just read your post. I hope all went well at the Doctor's office. Will continue to pray for good health and peace of mind. Blessings sister. In Him, Cindy :-)

You say don't bash I say make the way straight for the coming of the Lord.I agree. Hopefully, none of us want to bash anybody. I freely admit that I honestly don't know if it is the catholic church that is specifically mentioned in the bible as the "whore". I do know I still have so much to learn about the gospel that has been offered freely to me. However, Lately I have been wondering about evangelicals. Have the walls of the gospel fallen into such disrepair that everyone who claims Jesus can climb on into the church? Maybe so. I see that the president of Fuller seminary has reached out to establish common ground with the mormons. He apologized to them at some Joepsh Smith celebration on behalf of evangelical Christianity and sought accord moving forward. In light of our warmth towards the Roman Church, maybe we could overlook the fatal flaws of many psuedo-christian belief systems and concentrate on their strengths. (I'm not kidding.) Mormons, JW's, Christian Science, and even scientology all have their portion of good doctrine. I have Mormon friends who listen to the same Vineyard praise music I do and teach their children the same bible stories I do.Isn't that enough? Does Jesus count these souls as part of his church? I wonder if the real problem is that we have become uncomfortable believing in propositional truths at all. We live in a post-modern day when dogmatic certainty over "religion" seems unenlightened and unloving. Yet if the church is built on the foundation of sound propositional truth then we can't leave that foundation just because our post-modern age tells us that no one has the truth so let's all get along. Luther, Zuingle, Calvin, Knox, and Tyndale all had good reason to oppose Catholicism. We may pity catholics now and want to come to their defense because they are weak compared to the magisterium they used to be, but Rome has remained Romish. She might have reformed some of her corruptions but she has never repented from the doctrinal heresies articulated so courageously by the reformers. So their protestant charge still stands. I wish this was not the case. This is not catholic bashing per se. Afterall, many evangelicals on TV offer a cheap counterfiet as well. Whether we have a Roman tradition or a protestor tradition, we have to believe there is one gospel or we have no gospel at all. This subject is going to be a difficult one from now untill the end of the age. We should be sensible how we represent our convictions. I pray two things for my own testimony towards those who believe in a false religion, regardless of their banner:1) Let me be zealous for the pure gospel of Jesus that is able to wash mens' heart from sin.2) Let me be zealous for the pure love of God that is able to wash the feet of men that they might hear His gospel. BlessingsMC

Thank you Cindy. It went pretty well. I have to get another CT scan in a few days for something they saw in the right lung. He says it might be nothing but want to rule it out. I pray it is nothing! :0In Christ, chanin

Ok, I really think it was enough of all this. Honestly, before this thread to be posted I was already get tired of these subjects. Yes,it is good to post a warning and to tell that catholic church has a false teachings and we done that,isnt we? Most of us participatied in those threads (like this) and we all agreed. I cannot see someone to oppose on this, so I think it was enough. I don't say to stop telling that false is false but on the right place and right time.But I think now and here we should take time and focus more on Jesus, on our relation with Christ, I want to hear about our God, I want to be encouraged reading about changed brothers and sisters, changes in their lifes toward Christ. Changes in our prayer life and getting out of the communion with God someone to shout "Isn't Jesus wonderful - I just spend one hour with Him". I want to hear testemonies about God. I want to hear how God's word became honey on their lips. We have heard many testemonies, how this site has changed many lifes, isn't we? If you haven't read, read this please Email encouragements Email encouragements IIOn this forum has been discussed about false teachings and I believe it it will continue so, BUT let us not forget what is the main purpose of this forum! I will now quote one brother who posted other thread, I think all should read this as reminder: Lets not make SI like The National Enquirer. This supposed to be all about revival, repentance and growing in Christ.Community Rules: It is very important to note that you are joining a vibrant community of believers across the entire world. The main reason for the discussion forums being on this site in the first place is for discussions revolving around the audio sermon speakers and the themes and topics they bring up. Of course it has expanded to more but the whole underlying principle needs to be EDIFICATION. Please review and understand what the rules are of this website as a member you are expected to obey them. By registering you are agreeing to these rules and stipulations for proper use of this website.The content of SI should be centered on the need for revival and spiritual awakening.I believe sister Chanin was willing to tell us that this forum is suppose to be meat and when some catholic will come to make him to leave the bone and take the meat!Lahry gave us good example:I read myself out of the catholic church. I finally came to a point where I could no longer harmonize the Word of God with the tradition of the church and I chose the Word of God and dropped the other.So you see, it was not "bashers" or well meaning evangelicals that set me free. It was the Word of God. If we but speak the truth in Love, that is the truth of what the bible teaches, then the Holy Spirit has good seed for a harvest.-God bless Kire

I don't say to stop telling that false is false but on the right place and right time...But I think now and here we should take time and focus more on Jesus, on our relation with Christ,...let us not forget what is the main purpose of this forum! This sounds good to me!MC

Sometimes in our quest to be scripturally sound and accurate, we all ommitt the weightier matters , as it were, of the law (bible-doctrine) , matters like mercy and love and justice. Honoring Chanin as one of Jesus' own and our fellow laborer should be the highest priority in this community, and as there is a time and season for all things under the sun, when it comes to offense we need to have a wisdom from above which is first of all peaceable. I judge alot of things I hear against the wisdom that cries from..... Prov8 Let's be biblical in our handleing of one another here as well as our endevour to be sound doctrinely. God Bless Bro. Daryl

I cannot keep up with all the traffic on this senistive subject, in fact there are three threads at least all running concurrently. I know we all want most of all to stand for truth so it can be difficult t just let a thing drop.I am reminded of Judes description of "ungodly men" who railed against satan rather the taking the more humble approach of the archangel Michael who simply said " the Lord rebuke thee".So may I suggest two things.1. Lets move these discussions into a seperate area away from the Lounge. That way it is contained.2. Lets start posting stuff about what we believe and what we would die to uphold and why so that those of a different persuasion are challenged to think rather than defend thier corner.Just a few thoughts.Paul

However, Lately I have been wondering about evangelicals. Have the walls of the gospel fallen into such disrepair that everyone who claims Jesus can climb on into the church? Maybe so. I see that the president of Fuller seminary has reached out to establish common ground with the mormons. He apologized to them at some Joepsh Smith celebration on behalf of evangelical Christianity and sought accord moving forward. In light of our warmth towards the Roman Church, maybe we could overlook the fatal flaws of many psuedo-christian belief systems and concentrate on their strengths. (I'm not kidding.) Mormons, JW's, Christian Science, and even scientology all have their portion of good doctrine. I have Mormon friends who listen to the same Vineyard praise music I do and teach their children the same bible stories I do.The Bible says: Romans 10:9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (NLT)This is all it takes to be saved. Catholics confess with their mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in their hearts that God raised him from the dead. Therefore, they are saved.Who else believes this? Baptists. Methodist. Jehovah Witnesses. Church of God. Assemblies of God. Mormons. Episcopalians. Virtually every Christian denomination! They are all saved.Ricky

rickyy38,Wow!! Do you really think that's all it takes? If that's the case, then almost every wino and dopehead in town is saved. If you ask them, is Jesus Christ Lord, a lot of them will say, "of course." Man, thanks a lot for this revelation. Maybe I should stop looking at sinners as lost. If all it takes is saying with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord." Let's all run around going, "Hey, man, you don't have to live holy or follow Christ. Just say 'Jesus is Lord' with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead and you're good. We're brothers in Christ." Is that the kind of Christianity you have?? If that's all you think it takes, then you an I have different brands of Christianity.First of all, your NLT paraphrase of the Bible got it wrong. The Bible does NOT say, "For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord." It doesn't say that saying the words, "Jesus is Lord" gets you in. Listen to the Bible:"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10The Bible says "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus." Confessing Christ is more than a one time deal. It is not just saying Jesus is Lord. It is confessing Him as your Lord (owner, ruler, master). It is a claiming Christ as your Lord backed up by your intention to SUBMIT to Him as Lord. ("And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" - Luke 6;46) Confessing the Lord Jesus is an act of submission followed by action. Look at what the Scriptures have to say about this:"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."[2 Timothy 2:19]Did you hear that? Everyone that names or confesses the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity. Another witness? Easy:"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."[Matthew 7:21]Did you hear that? This is Jesus talking. Just CALLING Him Lord can't save you. You have to SUBMIT to Him as Lord. "but he that doeth the will of my Father."So we see that there are TRUE confessions and FALSE confessions. The difference? Fruit. Are we supposed to notice who belongs to Christ and who does not? If we aren't then how in the world did we get the book of 2 Peter and Jude? Were the apostles wrong with Simon the Sorcerer? He confessed Christ. So did the incestual Christians in 1 Cor. 5 that Paul said he passed judgement upon. Who was Paul to judge, you may ask. I hope you don't ask. I could go on and on. We are warned of "false brethren" (Gal. 2:4), "false prophets" (1 John 4:1), "false teachers" (2 Peter 2:1), etc. And these all will confess Christ as Lord. The JW's do, the Mormons do, the Catholics do, on and on. Confessing Christ as Lord doesn't get you in. SUBMITTING to Christ as Lord does.I hope you see the error of this kind of statement.Blessings,RT

Received Text,My brother, perhaps the Message Bible translates that verse the best when it says in Romans 10:9 "Say the welcoming word to God - "Jesus is my Master" - embracing, body and soul, God's work of doing in us what he did in raising Jesus from the dead. That's it. You're not "doing" anything; you're simply calling out to God, trusting him to do it for you. That's salvation."You say the difference is fruit, and I would agree. I know many Mormons who are good people. Catholics as well. I confess to not knowing many Jehovah Witnesses because they tend to keep to themselves, but what I know of them they do tend to be very moral people. Who am I to judge? There is fruit.Matthew 7:1 "Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults - unless, of course, you want the same treatment." (The Message Bible)Ricky

I think you need to go and read my last post again as I don't think I could have put it much better. It was some good preachin'. :-D FYI: The Message is NOT a Bible translation. It is a Bible paraphrase. Actually it fits more in the category of Bible commentary. It is not inspired Bible. I hope you don't use this for your daily Bible reading. I hesitate to even recopy the passage you took from it because it does violence to Rom. 10:9,10. So much so that the passage is unrecognizable. I do want to copy just one dangerously poisonous phrase that is found in this paraphrase: "You're not 'doing' anything." Now where does Romans 10:9,10 say that?? This is a gross twisting of the text at best. It is a replacement of the text at worst.Maybe you missed the point of my last post: Submission and Obedience to Christ. I gave some powerful Scriptures.Please read it again if you will.Blessings,RT

Something to consider though is that Jesus and the NT or New Covanants claims are much higher in thier demands on our lives than that of the old. Not all that followed Jesus were considered saved by the early church. Just thoughs who were disciples. We do a disservice to God and the Gospel of Grace when we neglect to tell people that they must take up the cross and follow Jesus,i.e. become his disciple. I have ministered to many on the streets ---in the high ways and by ways--- who wanted relief but were unwilling to follow Jesus, but at the same time confessed Jesus as God and Lord. Thier confession was in vain. There's a difference between being in error (while still loving Jesus and trying to follow him) and easy believism which makes no requirement on the hearer. I know of JW's who love Jesus and as a result have come out from among them as it were, and the list goes on, however they are the exception and not the rule. Our brother did a fine job in his defense of the gospel claims. The little bit of sarcasm he showed was just his personality showing through, I'm sure, but if we could have been together in person I'm sure we all would have sounded much more civil in a discussion like this. I have the uttmost respect for you, my brother, as of one who s posts I review with some degree of authority, so plaese don't take this wrong, I reply in love. God Bless Bro. Daryl

Right on the money. I didn't think I was THAT unclear. I enjoy a bit of wittiness (sarcasm if you will, although that includes negativity as well as positive wit). I guess I discuss things how I would want it put to me. I try to leave no mistake about what I am saying. Easy believism is another gospel that cannot be tolerated by the church. So I totally agree with you.As far as "being in error", I don't have the same theology today that I had even five years ago. So I evidently had "error" in my life. I think what you said is well put. Let me further clarify my position on the Word. The Word and the Holy Spirit are as needful to us as bread and water. You can't have one without the other. If you just have bread and no water, you will die. Vice versa. This is what I believe. This is what I teach and preach. Jesus IS the Word. The Lord IS that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.I still maintain that my senses are frail in this body and I cannot perfectly trust them. When my heart condemns me, God is greater than my heart. I have only to turn to 1 Jn. 5:24 or some other blessed passage and read. Praise the Lord.Gotta go.Blessings,RT

Hmmm,Truth. Yes, of course.Nastiness, totally unnecessary, try a different tact it's wearing very thin around here. No sooner does this thing start to die down than the verbosity picks up again.then almost every wino and dopehead in town is saved.Would that make you then superior?1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. And such were some of us.I'm curious, when was the last time you stopped your car, got out of it, held the dirty fonky hand of a 'wino' or 'dopehead', and ask them, "Is Jesus Lord?" or given them a bottle of fresh water, or a can of food, or some soap, or a clean pair of socks? These things need to be pointed out.Right on the money. I didn't think I was THAT unclear. I enjoy a bit of wittiness (sarcasm if you will, although that includes negativity as well as positive wit). I guess I discuss things how I would want it put to me. I try to leave no mistake about what I am saying. This is what I believe. This is what I teach and preach.There is lot of "I"'s in there.It has been said enough times if one cares to hear it, this is not someplace to come and pound one's agenda. Join in by all means, but keep in mind what this ministry is about, it's members and that everyone is at varying levels of faith and tenure in this walk.The tendency is to just lock this whole topic because some are abusing it and beating it to death. Much has been established and other than a few comments, this thought towards 'ecumenicism' as to it creeping in here or otherwise being intimated at seems off base. The reason to throw that in here and why the hesitancy to ask Greg to just lock this off is that maybe there is still something to be discussed, if there can be some level headedness about it.Somehow we have to get the reigns pulled in around the emotions and maybe even ask the more searching questions as to why we value our opinions so highly, and especially at the expense of others. It's just plain pride.Joh 7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? It's back to assumptions again and more so just some plain old common courtesy. Do 'we' not expose the error, of course. But where do we find the sarcasm in scripture amongst believers? There is a flippancy and tendency to rush ones point across.In the last couple of threads here it does seem to be some misunderstanding and granted even some error in thinking. Taking MC's comment's out of context by themselves were made to look like a supportive call towards a simple inclusiveness.Here RT is right;"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9,10And as he went on to say, it is much more than that, what does believeth unto righteousness mean? It is a question, not a statement. Without a doubt we need a proper understanding of scripture and a hermeneutic to help us get there with the Holy Spirit. None of that is above reproach and just as certainly there is much to be concerned over a lot of modern translations and paraphrases, many of these things have been dealt with (and that's not to say to a 'conclusion') by many fine brothers here. A little digging would bear this out.The attempt here is in trying to divide out the 'divisiveness' in the argumentation and carelessness with one another, it is just of the wrong mentality.Sorry, if I am bouncing around here, trying to say two different things at the same time. One is conduct, the other is 'content'.Going back to earlier comments;Who else believes this? Baptists. Methodist. Jehovah Witnesses. Church of God. Assemblies of God. Mormons. Episcopalians. Virtually every Christian denomination! They are all saved.This can't be true in all cases. To finish the point MC was making;I wonder if the real problem is that we have become uncomfortable believing in propositional truths at all. We live in a post-modern day when dogmatic certainty over "religion" seems unenlightened and unloving. Yet if the church is built on the foundation of sound propositional truth then we can't leave that foundation just because our post-modern age tells us that no one has the truth so let's all get along. Luther, Zuingle, Calvin, Knox, and Tyndale all had good reason to oppose Catholicism. We may pity catholics now and want to come to their defense because they are weak compared to the magisterium they used to be, but Rome has remained Romish. She might have reformed some of her corruptions but she has never repented from the doctrinal heresies articulated so courageously by the reformers. So their protestant charge still stands. I wish this was not the case. This is not catholic bashing per se. Afterall, many evangelicals on TV offer a cheap counterfiet as well. Whether we have a Roman tradition or a protestor tradition, we have to believe there is one gospel or we have no gospel at all. This can't be missed. However it may 'sound' to it's hearers, many of us came out of very bad teachings, doctrines, cult's and other aberrations of core central teachings of scripture. Absolutely they contain elements of the truth and maybe even some more than the others, but it is still besides the point. Even if what we hold today at this moment is proven to be in error, would hope we would drop it like a viper and not turn the truth we find into it's own venom to use against those same ones either caught up in or leading others astray.It is also what seems dangerous about the ideal's at least as far as I have been able to ascertain them with ecumenicism. For the most part it hasthe preposition going into it of some kind of compromise, perhaps I am wrong. If that is what ultimately becomes of it, it will be a failure. If it becomes an angry demonstration of "We are right/you are wrong" it would be a failure. Is it wrong to reach out to all these groups? I don't think so, but it can't be on the lines of a willingness to compromise sound blood bought truths (martyrs, not...). You see it's not the 'badge's' we wear or even if 'we' 'think 'we' are 'right', none of that makes any difference whatsoever, it shouldn't even be a part of our thinking. It must be on the basis and willingness to let go of all these traditions beyond scripture, all the man made 'doctrines' and a complete and total surrender to the Lord and His thought's, and cannot see any other way around it then to go backwords, leaving all this where it is and getting back to sound pure doctrine. It is what is the primary goal of all of us or it should be. It cannot be prosperity or the pope or strange ideas about Jesus, nor praying to the saints or humanitarian good will, or Mary. Not Calvin or Arminius or Benny Hinn. Not 'speaking words of faith' or good moral people. It's not in deed's done, denominations or penance for sin nor purgatory. Moral relativism, the moral majority, the religious right or the liberal left. Creationism, evolution-ism, eschatological constructs, in the church out of the church, Mohamed, Buddha, New Age Spiritualism, universalism, Brother Andrew or Brother Lawrence, Mother Theresa or Leonard Ravenhill.It is at the core only one thing:"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1Co 1:23,24The best of this attempt I believe was Ravi Zacharia preaching in the Mormon Church recently. He reached out and yet without compromise, what the results of that will be is anyone's guess. If that was the effort behind this whole 'movement' from those who hold to all that scripture says, means and does ... maybe then we would have something to rejoice about.

Hmmm...I think folks are getting a little too sensitive. I wonder if anyone would have withstood the preaching of Jesus? See what I mean:"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"[Matthew 23:33]I wonder if someone were to come on this forum and say THAT, if they would be crucified just like Jesus was. Please, brethren, check your hearts. I know we are far from the days of John Wesley who said, "put fire in your sermon, or put your sermon in the fire." On one occasion a young man was sleeping under the preaching of Mr. Wesley and Wesley interrupted his message and cried, "Fire, Fire" and the man woke up and said, "Where, Where?" To which Mr. Wesley replied, "In hell for those who sleep under the gospel." But I guess Mr. Wesley was too judgemental and mean spirited. Was Jesus too mean spirited when he called the Pharisees "serpents" and "vipers?" Didn't He know that Pharisees such as the apostle Paul would one day follow Him? Why did he call the apostle Peter, "Satan?" I haven't even come close to this. The word, "dopehead" is a street term for a drug addict. But today, we don't want to call sin for what it is, do we? Nowhere did I say that I don't believe in the power of God to sober people up and clean them up instantly. No where did I despise caring for the needy. You don't read that, but you would sure think that you do given the attack on what I have written.Come on, let's be honest here. I was responding to the claims of an ecumenical, easy-believism statement. I'm SHOCKED that you all aren't shouting AMEN to what I have written. As for the perception of the word "I", there can be no assumption about the beliefs of others as we are in this instance all so well aware. To come from one's own point of view, the word "I" is essential. It is not prideful, simply honest and accurate. To say it is such is highly presumptive.I hope the administrator doesn't think he can't be disagreed with here. This is not an attack upon him, personally. I respect what he does here. But I think he is seeing something that isn't here as far as "nastiness" is concerned. As per his views of what I or the other persons have posted here, that is none of my concern. I respect his opinion highly. I want to make clear that I am only writing this pertaining to the perceived mood of what I have written.There is no verbal violence here, no cussing/swearing, no sacrelige, NO NASTINESS.They have a word in Spanish that I think comes into play for all of us. The word is "tranquilo." (Keep it cool, calm, collected - try not to get worked up over nothing)I think we would do well to fight the real enemy here. If someone came on here cussing up a storm or talking about sinful subjects and dishonorable things, I would jump on the bandwagon against it. This is clearly not what we have here.It is OK to be colorful and clean. It is not OK to be immoral.You all know who I am via this thread (or can know if you read the first post). You know where it is coming from and that I'm not a flake. I'd appreciate the benefit of the doubt.Thanks,RT

Is it wrong to reach out to all these groups? I don't think so, but it can't be on the lines of a willingness to compromise sound blood bought truths...It is at the core only one thing:"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." 1Co 1:23,24 Amen Mike. You are doing some fine moderating there brother!I think you have a well polished lens through which we can properly see this highly charged issue. In any case I think we hear Chanin's heart of concern and respect for those who call themselves catholic. We might betray our "truth" if we act unchristlike in our rhetoric. For what it's worth, I tend to be much more sensitive when facing people...my speech is much more slow and gentle then my writing! I bet that's the case with many of us. Our prophetic bark is much worse then our bite! Blessings allMC

I don't know that it is wise to put down any Bible translation as you have done, Received Text. They all contain the very Word of God, and have all been used to show people of many persuasions the way to eternal life. I would hope that you are not so narrow-minded as to suppose that only people of your persuasion, theological bent and read the KJV-only are the true children of God. God loves everyone.I respect fundamentalists, but it will be interesting to see the looks on some of their faces when they get to heaven and see the different people there that are not fundamentalists. I think the fundamentalists will be out numbered, personally.I agree with Channin's original post. There is room a-plenty on the road to heaven. Everyone is welcome! Just be careful when you merge, and watch out for road-rage.Ricky

I do want to get one thing clear. The point of my post was not that the road is wide. Actually the road is narrow and few find it.It was just my attmept to try to steer the subject of all the posts away from badgering the same subject- and onto more Christ-centered topics.I would be happy if this whole thread would just completely die. But like "self"- it is hard to kill.May the Lord be glorified in our speech and in our motives. Let's focus on Christ. :)Surrendered to Him, Chanin

Channin wrote: May the Lord be glorified in our speech and in our motives. Let's focus on Christ. :)Amen! We need more love and acceptance, and much less bickering over minor issues. The road isnt as narrow as everyone tries to make it. :-)Peace,Ricky

Christ Did say the road to heaven is narrow didn't He? Perhaps I am wrong...didn't He also say that the road to destruction is wide? We should not accept anything short of the excellence that God demands of us in ALL things. We must speak out against anything contrary to Christ and His teaching and follow the lead of the Holy spirit in correcting those things.

Check out this article in the link below for a well balanced and scripturaly correct overview of the differences between the Gospel of the Bible and the gospel of the Roman Catholic Church.Faith vs Works http://www.ariseandwalk.com/articles.php?id=80

Quote by ironman:We must speak out against anything contrary to Christ and His teaching and follow the lead of the Holy spirit in correcting those things. True we are to speak out only if you know fully you are being led by the Holy Spirit so it will bare a good fruit not strife... If we are to correct the others wrong belief must bare good fruit and unity to the Spirit of God that people will be coming in reconcilation with God and accept Jesus as the Lord and Savior, make sure we have our own eyes clearly sees the things that God sees... other wise we become full of our ownself not knowing pride are creeping in. May the Love of Christ and His mercy be know to the mankind.

Thanks JTB,A great article from someone who has been through it, had picked up a mention of this site from something elswhere you had posted. His site looks like it was born out of the side from here, or the other way around 8-) Good stuff brother...

indeed heavenlyman, indeed.

I do not post this to stir up but to maybe think about this item that I found in the business section of Cnn. The entire post can be read in the thread, "These days are evil.""Evangelicals' eager embrace of corporate-style growth strategies is giving them a tremendous advantage in the battle for religious market share, says Roger Finke, a Pennsylvania State University sociology professor and co-author of a new book, The Churching of America, 1776-2005: Winners and Losers in Our Religious Economy. A new Pope has given Catholicism a burst of global publicity, but its nominal membership growth in the U.S. stems largely from the influx of Mexican immigrants. Overall, the Catholic Church's long-term decline in U.S. attendance accelerated after the recent sex-abuse scandals, there's a severe priest shortage, and parish churches and schools are closing in the wake of a financial crisis.Similarly, the so-called mainline Protestants who dominated 20th century America have become the religious equivalent of General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM - News) The large denominations -- including the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church -- have been shrinking for decades and have lost more than 1 million members in the past 10 years alone. Today, mainline Protestants account for just 16% of the U.S. population, says University of Akron political scientist John C. Green.In contrast, evangelicalism's theological flexibility gives it the freedom to adapt to contemporary culture. With no overarching authority like the Vatican, leaders don't need to wrestle with a bureaucratic hierarchy that dictates acceptable behavior. "If you have a vision for ministry, you just do it, which makes it far easier to respond to market demand," says University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sociology professor Christian Smith."Now this particular observation includes much more of what I expect to see happen according Scripture. The great harlot, babylon, mechants, traders, and a lot of people buying and selling with the mark of the beast. In ChristJeff