The echo chamber of pride.

Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

In many tightly controlled circles there is what is called an " echo chamber.' This is where ideas and teachings are transmitted and amplified and no dissenting view is allowed or accepted. Some may call it strong leadership, others can clearly see it for what it is, but obviously not those within the tightly controlled group. In the best case scenario men and women are simply locked into their own little world where no other view is accepted. The worse case scenario is that a cult is formed whether large or small. Who are susceptible to the echo chamber scenario? Typically it will be those who were raised in very tight conservative circles and who have been taught to fear the " outside." Or on the very opposite scale there is the extreme charismatics who appear very different from the extreme conservatives but their motivations are exactly the same. Those who have very low self esteems, who do not realize that they are children of the living God but have been taught that God is an angry God just waiting to fall upon them at their every failure are very susceptible to these men who honor one another but who do not seek "the honor that cometh only from God."

Now who are these men who seek to control people and set it forth as a virtue? They are men full of pride and vain glory as the old saying goes. Their ambition is worldly honor. They typically do not work and seek to be supported by others. They set their hearts upon receiving glory from other men within the confines of their own circles. They seek to add to their circles by using flattery. They flatter others in an effort to receive flattery back. They make the praises of men their idol. "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren." (Mat 23:4-8)

There is a beautiful freedom in Christ. The enemy of your soul hates this freedom. He wants to see you in the chains of legalism. He wants to hear you cry out " Oh wretched man that I am." He sends out his emissaries to try to rob the children of God of their freedoms. "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
(Gal 2:4-5)

Beware of such men brothers and sisters. Do not give place to them " no not for an hour." As the days grow darker all manner of attacks shall come against the Body of Christ but we know this, that greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world. God loves His children with an everlasting love. His thoughts towards you are more than the sands of the seas. We know that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church, praise God. Heb 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." It is absolutely vital, as we enter the dark days that are upon us, to be able to discern good and evil. This comes through the baptism of the Holy Spirit so that we can be led and guided into all truth. To know the Word of God and be a lover of the truth is vital in discerning the schemes of the wicked one. May the Lord bless the saints in these ever-changing days. Praise God, His word never changes........bro Frank

Thank you Mary Jane, God is indeed sifting and separating..............bro Frank

My brother,
I have pondered, at length, prayed at length, grieved at length, all that you wrote in this post.

Yes! I do grieve, though I am nothing, I know that I know, the deposit of the Holy Spirit resides in me, therefore though I may seem to man of little account, I know Messiah Jesus and I love Him. I know and hold the LORD, God of hosts in reverential awe, which is the long way of saving, I fear God.

I said that to say this; if anyone thinks that I have some spirit of "elitist religious pride", because I don't get the same warm fuzzies, when I consider 2,000 year's of church "history", they adjudge and accuse me wrong, as I believe you, brother, have been adjudged wrong, by unburdening what God the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart to prophesy.

I don't base, what I just wrote, by a mere reading of your writings, but the hours upon hours of Godly fellowship we have spent on the phone...knowing each other NOT of the flesh, but in the Spirit, quiet reasoning, and no arguing.

why is that?...its called "CO-submission. That is what I believe is missed, when the word "submission" is bandied forth among some of the saints.

i'm sure you heard when Duncan Campbell, when he re-counted how little Donald MacPhail, a lad of 16, accompanied him to meeting, where many stood in opposition to Duncan's message. Duncan found nigh to impossible to preach, glanced over and saw this wee lad's head bowed, and the floor wet with his tears, and as Duncan FREELY admitted, he realized that boy was nearer to God he was, and Duncan said, "My dear people, we got to be honest"

I've heard Duncan say this MANY a time, "My dear people, we've got to be honest", and it was usually in conjunction with Duncan yielding the "pulpit", or some disturbance in his own soul, where he would survey his own heart condition to be found wanting, such as when confronted by his daughter Sheena at 5 in the morning, asking Duncan after 17 years in the "pulpit", or as Duncan put it, "wandering for 17 years in a barren landscape, Sheena kneels at his feet, and asked this dear saint, "Daddy, when was the last time you knelt beside a poor sinner and led him to Jesus?"

Now this honest loving question left Duncan completely undone. If he has been a man of religious "pride and ego", he might have cuffed her about, or "rebuked" her for her audacity to DARE question the "great" Duncan Campbell...but no, in his testimony, he said, "my dear people we've got to be honest"....Sheena was right, he had grown cold, and by the numbers, so distraught that he sought that Lord that night face down in his study, weeping, crying out to God with such intensity, Sheena came in to pray with him, because she thought he was "going mental".

Duncan was undergoing the DEATH of "religious pride and ego", and resigned his pastorate within two days to go BACK and serve God as he was called.

lets go back to Duncan and young Donald Mcphail, Duncan saw this boy was nearer to God, than and said this, "I find it difficult to preach, I want you to pray."...and Donald rose to his feet; I heard this YEARS ago, and Jesus had me cut a "comp" about that night in the Hebridean islands....here it is, May it bless you and all the brethren:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=5675

(Lord bless you brother Greg, for putting it in the compilations)

my brother, I could take quotes of what you written to highlight and amen them. I amen the post, and it brought to the point of "who are the men of God, that have helped shape me in Christ?"

there are four, Duncan, David Brainerd, Len Ravenhill and Frank Bartleman.

I praise God, and am eternally Thankful that God the Holy Spirit led me to such human vessels, because they all share an attribute I know is crucial for these times; it is death to flesh,and death to religious pride and ego. humble, sometimes lonely, beset at all times by a Godly burden, steeped in prayer.

that is the mark I aim for...Help me Lord.

in closing, I encourage you my brother, speak in the strength you've been given, and lets pray we both can weep between the porch and altar....time grows short, God love you and all the saints at SI, neil

Thank you brother Neil. Many are the accusations the saints have endured down through the ages by a robust religious spirit, tis an honor for me to be in their ranks.

This religious pride and ego that took Duncan 17 years of desert wandering is found in many places. His brokenness of spirit was a necessary journey if he were to be used and of course he was used mightily. All men of God must be broken otherwise pride shall reign and accusation of the saints shall be the order of the day.

I think of the young men down in the " Church of Wells," as a good example of how pride can turn to cult. They came from a " conservative," background where the emphasis was on strong leadership. Any dissenting voice was always ignored or crushed. About six years ago, before they had their " church," I spent about five hours one evening with one of the two young men who founded that gathering. In his pride and arrogance he withstood any counsel. He claimed he had already been broken at the age of 24. How many young men I have met who have thought they have been broken, and I think in my spirit " you have no idea."

You write........

"I praise God, and am eternally Thankful that God the Holy Spirit led me to such human vessels, because they all share an attribute I know is crucial for these times; it is death to flesh,and death to religious pride and ego. humble, sometimes lonely, beset at all times by a Godly burden, steeped in prayer."

Praise God brother. And Duncan saying " lets be honest." Honesty in our character is above all. The hypocrite pretends to be one thing while he is quite another. He shows a face to the world but has another face which he keeps quite hidden. He speaks in pious tones as to impress others but his spirit is a spirit of accusation. He will try to repress this spirit but it shall always come forth for the enemy of our souls is, at his very core, the accuser of the brethren.

Yes brother, I pray with you that we shall be found weeping before the porch and the altar for the time is indeed short and all those who decide to stand upon the truth, regardless of fear or favor, shall face increasing persecution. Yet, God sustains His own, praise the Lord. The man of God has an inexhaustible well of joy and peace and strength and power by the Holy Spirit. The man or woman of God, at his or her core is an overcomer because they know intimately through baptism in the Spirit, the one who overcame. The religious man has only his own resources and that which he can take from others............bro Frank

Hi Crusader,

You write..........

" I see the "normal Christian sterotype life" and i use to wonder why God kept me from this at first i thought that i was cursed or God didnt love me enough or i wasnt doing enough but now i know that he wanted me to serve him and not man."

Amen brother, God loves His own and He hides them under the shadow of His wings. He loves you too much to allow you to live a religious life but rather wants and desires you to walk in intimate relationship with Him. Unfortunately or fortunately this will bring attacks from the enemy usually from other " believers." Light exposes darkness. Darkness hates the light. Men would rather do their deeds in darkness yet the mere light of Christ, shining through His saints, exposes the dark deeds of the heart in others. That is why it can be so confusing to God's children when they are attacked because they clearly did nothing to warrant an attack.

Yet, this is the unseen battle. We know that the Scriptures teach us that we do not battle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places. These powers detest the freedom that you have found in Christ. You were once a captive but you have been set free by Jesus Himself and He whom the Son sets free is free indeed and no man nor power can bring you into captivity although they will try and keep trying.

You write..........

" I have noticed that other christians that are and have been broken share a unity in their relationship with God."

Amen brother, it is true. This has been my experience over 25 years. It is a wonderful thing to share the intimacy that we have with God with other like-minded brothers and sisters. It is an instant bond, there is a witness in our spirits of the Holy Spirit that unites us in Christ. This has been one of the most thrilling discoveries I have made as I have travelled the world and met Christians from every kind of background. Right along with that there can be instant enemies made because of jealousy.

Jealousy of what one might ask? Of this intimacy with God and with other genuine saints. The religious man detests this. When Saul heard the people speak of David favorably, he despised him in his heart and from that moment sought to kill him. When David entered into genuine worship before Saul, Saul through a spear at him. When David danced unashamedly before the people his wife, with the same spirit as Saul, detested him.

Brother, when you are part of the " fellowship of the burning heart," as Tozer used to put it, you will find enemies enough. When soldiers fight together in a fox hole, their is a bond that takes place that is unique and lasts a lifetime with extreme love and loyalty. They would literally " take a bullet," for each other. It is the same with those who have been broken by God for this life and who have entered into intimacy with Him. They recognize each other and it is a beautiful thing.

You write..........

"i am not for or against current christian structures in church sense but i myself search for truth and submission to christ where all the people are used by God equally and yet in the way that God reveals himself individually in each person. I have seen this a couple of times in my life but not often and it was in these settings that people where broken on their knees weeping before God and God blessed and moved among us. which was oposite to a meeting where pride and religious spirits ruled."

Yes indeed brother, there are meetings where all are in submission to Christ first and foremost and where any saint that God has gifted and chooses to use can be used. Religious men hate this above all things. They fight it tooth and nail because of their own bondage to religion and a controlling spirit. You are right, where pride and a religious spirit dwells, you will not find the Spirit of God and the presence of God. God is either preeminent in gatherings or He is not.

God bless you Crusader. Your walk might be a lonely one, as it can be for many genuine saints, but better to have the company of God first and foremost, like Enoch, than to have the company of men and not know God intimately...........bro Frank

brother Frank and other brethren,

recently on this forum, especially when I asked with a clear heart, "what would "Remnant" ecclesiology look like", I have noticed two words being used as a spear, they are "spiritual elitist", because a saint has a differing call from others who feel comfort within denominational churches.

to ACCUSE another of "spiritual elitism", is not only unloving, bordering on hate, its just plain wrong.

should I link up the MANY "spiritual survivor" blogs I have seen and read the sad testimonies of those so abused by cruel human manipulations?

its just hurts too much to write and try to reason on this forum anymore, because the promise of such is great, and I feel in some instances squandered. there is no greater tragedy than promise squandered.

heavy hearted, neil

Hi RBanks,

I have never called for any person to leave any church at any time. Take the last thread. The post was about denominations not being Scriptural. I will not use this thread or any other to settle past disagreements. If the notion that denominations are not Biblical is too offensive for some and they disagree then I have no problem with that, nor do I have a problem defending my position. I have not resorted to the name calling that Neil highlighted and I will not. Rather than accuse someone or talk about feelings someone has, perhaps a quote would be more in line. I have written over 600 articles on my own site which used to be tagged below, anyone can go there and see anything I have ever written and can quote here for all to see to back up any accusations they may have.

As for having an agenda, this is what Greg has said also and apparantly the moderators agree with him. I have been asked not to post and was told that people with agenda's in the past have had their accounts deleted. So if you do not see any more comments from me you will know why :) I will oblige the moderators and refrain from posting.

I feel sad about it no doubt but this is Gregs site and he gets to say who posts and who does not and the nature of the posts................bro Frank

Brother Robert writes an interesting piece, he may be the first to talk about the actual subject rather than focus on the person who raised the subject and for that I applaud you brother. I disagree with a number of the premises you raise but simply because I disagree that the Church of England was the Body of Christ and those who left her, much like those who left the Roman church, were schism, does not mean I think you are elitist or proud because you hold a position I believe to be error.

It seems to me that the main premise, and correct me if I am wrong since Wesley's quote was used, you seem to be saying that if people have left the Church of England or the Roman Church and so on, that "The pretences for separation may be innumerable, but want of love is always the real cause.” I strongly disagree with that position.

The Donatist's , for instance, separated themselves from the Catholics when the Catholics joined forces with the state under Constantine. Now, were they lacking in love? Indeed, they themselves were hunted down and killed by the Catholics. In three hundred years Christians had not killed Christians, now for the first time " Christians," were killing Christians. If there was a lack of love Robert, it could be seen in the ones doing the killing.

The confessing church is another good example of brothers and sisters coming out of something so corrupt that they could no longer stand it. Yet, using your premise, they were lacking in love for leaving. And they themselves did not consider themselves to be a schism, quite the opposite. The Hussites, the Brethren, the Waldenses, the Anabaptists, the Moravians, none of these groups would have considered themselves to be unloving schisms.

Now while I disagree with my brother Robert and would question the premise of some of his points, this does not mean I do not appreciate his post. In fact, Robert's post is a great example of playing the ball and not the man. Thank you for your post brother and let us agree to disagree................bro Frank

HI brother,

I do not believe this is a courtroom, I was simply responding to the points you made. Should I not do this? As far as sharing the Gospel, why would I disagree with that Robert, this is something that I personally do every time I get the chance as I am sure many others on this forum do.

As for Wesley, he contended time and time again with the church of England, especially on matters of sanctification. So much so that it became a separate denomination in America. So, the notion that Wesley never contended strongly for issues and simply preached the Gospel is not correct brother, you can actually do both..........bro Frank

Bro Allan writes........

"Does it mean that there would be no problems in churches if they were not denominational? Of course not; there were problems in the early churches. But I don't know why all of us (who are Bible believers) cannot at least acknowledge that the present denominational system of Christianity does not have its origin in God."

And bro Robert writes.........

"I would certainly agree with this. I would take a similar position to G.H. Lang's in his book "The Churches of God" as the ideal. "

And there we have it, we agree. Not sure what all the rest was, but it had certainly nothing to do with the agreed above statements...........bro Frank

Paul writes......

" I agree!" Well there you have it, agreement all around. The rest of Pauls post is worthy of a thread itself but has no bearing upon the OP. I am not sure how many " Non-denomintainal," gatherings out there, but there are a lot and they feel the need to call themselves " non-denominational."

Paul himself left the AGand writes.........

"The thing is, I still held my AG brethren dear to me and counted many AG brethren as saved and much more spiritual than myself. We simply agreed to disagree and it was never brought up once I relinquished by credentials."

Do you imagine Paul it would be different with myself or bro Alan or anyone else who agreed with the OP? That is why I believe in sticking to what has actually been said rather than conjecture as to how a brother might feel, if we do that it may surprise us just how much we agree on...........bro Frank

Hi Oracio,

The ancient Brethren church had no name, they did however merely refer to each other as brothers or sisters ( brethren being the old english name for brothers plural) The other examples of gatherings were, like the Hussites or Waldenses and so on were so named by their enemies.

If you were to go to back in a time machine to Ephesus you would find in that city one church, one body. Now they would often meet at multiple houses and so on, but if someone like Paul came or another apostle, then they would gather in a field or a place out of view of the general public. But there was only one church in that city. In every scripture reference there was only ever Church, single. The plural was only used in regard to regions. Some may argue that this was because the populations were so small in these towns and that today, with our large populations that would not be possible even if there was a will to simply meet as a single unit.

In the case of Corinth, some estimates put it as large as 350,000 or larger. In the case of Ephesus it was considerably smaller, around 50,000. In Rome there would have been about 1 million. In Jerusalem there would have been about 600,000 swelling to over a million during passover. In any case, you can see that we are dealing with large numbers and yet, still only one church per town or city at least according to the Scriptures. Imagine your own town with one set of elders and deacons and those given to hospitality and charity and administrations, then add those gifted by the Spirit of God in exhortation and teaching and wisdom and words of knowledge and so on operating in the many house groups, coming together for special occasions and so on. Imagine what a witness that would be to the world. Anyway, I am only musing Scriptural and what the church will look like prior to the return of Jesus in fulfillment to His own prophecy in JOhn 17. And if anyone disagrees, then let us disagree in love. Speaking to words spoken rather than conjecture of the writer is always more fruitful and avoids name calling and so on........bro Frank

HI Paul,

I would disagree with that obviously, but let us leave it alone brother and rather than speak on personal issues of " discernment," we simply agree to disagree...........bro Frank

Why are you heavy hearted Neil!

brother(sister?) do you have a month available?....so I can open my heart, and show you?

i'm not being sarcastic...i'm just weary of body and soul (especially weary of body, if you just stacked a cord of firewood on the porch, with a broken body of flesh...that "weary" I don't mind)

I have seen you post many things over the years to a very emotional extreme whereby you would come back later and apologized!

is that a compliment or a rebuke?

since the Father and since Messiah Jesus are very "emotional extreme", and i am created in their image, with the Jesus living in me, yet by all admission i am but a man, who when convicted of the Holy Spirit of hurting or using ill spake words to any precious soul, i never hesitate a second to abase myself and ask for their forgiveness, because the evolving act of sanctification includes KILLING 'EGO AND PRIDE'...i'll take that as a compliment.

you made several charges:

It seems though as of lately and in a recent thread that unless everyone agrees with everything that you and Frank agree on about coming out of all denominations that those who disagree are in error.

stay in the denominations then...my grievous situation is that in a 50 mile by 50 mile circle, rural, less than 50,000 people in a three county area, the majority of all churches are United Methodist and Evan Lutheran, both of which have decided its okay with God to ordain homosexual ministers....i cant sign up for that...and many times, i have gone into these churches because God ordered me...and made the ride home weeping, or heavy hearted because the Spirit of God has fled from these buildings.

you could say "i'm pre-judging...or just plain judging, but my criteria is may this assembly have AT LEAST one prayer meeting a week.....none of them do. the other non UM or Ev churches...same thing, no prayer meeting, but the most horrific thing is , there are none to little youth in these assemblies.

i'm telling you the truth, and this all, in the rural north "Bible belt".

so, if they are all comfortable in these denominational assemblies, stay there and be comfortable, be at ease in Zion, though the deadly dust of the hordes of babylon
lingers on the horizon.

i personally have great hope for these precious souls in these dry churches, because when God DOES come down in revival here, dry wood burns intense, and may it be so,amen.

It seems to me that Frank has an agenda that you also agree with, that you both have received inspiration to teach others, that in order to be a part of the last day remnant that everyone must come out of all denominations.

It also seems to me that Frank (which I do agree with much of his writings also) considers himself to function as an apostle to the point that people should follow his teachings as he follows the Lord.

i cant speak for Frank, but the use of the word "agenda" has an ugly connotation to it. i have no "agenda"...and i don't believe Frank has. i know that I've "ATE" of John 17, so many times, that i cannot understand how any man could read and hear with the ears of his heart, That High Priestly Prayer and not obey Messiah, but instead cling to the traditions and institutions made by men, which they are free to do.

as far as Frank

considers himself to function as an apostle to the point that people should follow his teachings as he follows the Lord.

You refuse to believe that God can use them maybe even greater than he is using you both in His Kingdom.

you are wrong, and that is a terrible charge to make, the implications inherent are ugly and accusatory....

and after that, to think that Frank was told not to post?

ah yes, the "fruit" of "strong leadership" has been unmasked in a flurry of accusations and commands.

"look how they love one another"...."made envious of so great a salvation"

and you ask me "why heavy hearted?

you accused:

Brother, if anyone disagrees with you, the pattern has been extreme defensiveness on your part.

I've been around this forum, i have SEEN "patterns" of "extreme defensiveness", but never from Frank. His writings always contain even measured Grace, even in disagreement....you know this!

its seems to me, that the word "agenda" is the stone used to stone.....the last line you wrote, just broke my heart, because it smells like religious tyranny: (salted with a threat)

but if there is an agenda to propagate - regardless of how noble or spiritual it may be - it will be discerned and addressed.

its 530 pm, the sun is cresting low-ish in the west, and when I read your words, my heart and my spirit in the Holy Spirit, just started praying for you....I didn't "know" exactly what I was praying, just prayers of love and soothing, comfort and good food for you, joy, much Joy! in Jesus, God willing, He'll take your hand, and just hold it.

Job didn't need his three "friends" blabbing, he just needed his hand held for a spell, maybe a nice long drink of cold water, a hand on the shoulder and just sit.

I think that was my prayer....right before I come on, I cooked two ribeyes (the local meat market had a 1 day meat sale, and I "Josephed" up) I just laughed because I thought, "neil you just ate Bill's ribeye steak."

i'm sorry. (I know you're laughing or at least smiling)

God love you Bill, I do, neil

Hi Oracio,

"But like you said, we may just have to agree to disagree and move on."

Well hallelujah for that :) That was a long time coming brother. It may have come too late for me as Greg is about to shut me down on this forum, but that is okay. I leave Greg in the Lords hands, good hands to be in. I have met a lot of good brothers and sisters on this forum over the last several years and may the Lord be with you all......bro Frank

The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords. Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
(Psa 55:21-22)