Christian Wedding Vendors, Gay Marriage, and 1 Cor 8

Now that gay marriage is well on the way to becoming the law of the land, how do you all feel about Christian wedding vendors participating in these events? For example, a Christian vendor who does cake or photography services?

Do you think Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 8 on meat sacrificed to idols might be applicable here?

The Lord will have to show me specifically if that verse applies to Christian vendors or not b/c I don't think it does.

If we keep separating ourselves from them, how are they supposed to see the love of the Lord in our hearts toward them? I will say this again, I believe the churches treatment of homosexuals has created the gay community but I could be wrong.

I realize my take on this is different, but to take pictures or bake a cake has absolutely nothing to do with eating things sacrificed to idols, imho. BUT I realize I could be wrong yet again but will wait on the Lord to show me I shouldn't love them.

God bless,
Lisa

Greetings

My daughter use to do wedding photography but once she saw the trend and where it was heading she chose out of conviction to leave the business. I will say that she was not only convicted about the sin of homosexuality it was also some of the receptions of unsaved married couples that were troubling. The behavior and dress often made worse by the consumption of large amounts of alcohol made doing the job difficult.

I think each one would have to pray and ask GOD what HE has for them in this situation.

To Lisa, you wrote:BUT I realize I could be wrong yet again but will wait on the Lord to show me I shouldn't love them.
______________

Could I ask you do you feel someone who follows their conscious and chooses not to work for homosexual weddings is some how unloving??? Just trying to understand your last comment.

God bless
maryjane

Personally, I don't think that a requirement like this would ultimately stand up in court. Would society demand that a restaurant owned by African Americans be required to serve racist KKK clan members dressed in their vile robes? There are plenty of establishments that can be "selective" on who they serve.

One way to "solve" this issue might be to have a closed membership in regard to who will be served. During a public policy class that I took during grad school, we learned that for-profit businesses owned by homosexuals (e.g., gay bars, gay clubs, websites, etc...) get by with catering primarily to homosexuals (or anyone with an opinion that embraces homosexuality) in some states by choosing to serve only those who are part of a closed membership.

In fact, certain restaurants and restaurant chains that want to serve alcohol often supersede local and country "dry" laws by setting up "nonprofit" clubs and requiring patrons to become members of those clubs in order to be allowed to order drinks. If restaurants like Chili's can be permitted to go around existing laws in order to serve people who drink alcohol, then I suspect that there must be a way to avoid forcing someone to violate their faith in their own businesses.

Ultimately, an American has a Constitutional right to exercise his/her religious faith. No law can be passed that would diminish that right. A privately owned business is owned by individuals and courts have already stated that "a sole proprietor is the same as the person."

As for the original question: Yes, I think that I Corinthians 8 is applicable here. There is no way that I would want to be complicit to sin. If I owned a small store, there would be no "litmus test" to determine whether someone is a Christian or lives in a way that is in opposition to my faith. A homosexual might walk in and want to buy a cake, and I wouldn't have a problem with it. However, this is not the case in the examples that you mentioned. Baking a cake for a homosexual union or taking photographs for gay couples are tantamount to DIRECT PARTICIPATION in something that is in opposition to the Christian faith. Forcing such participation would be restricting someone from the free exercise of their faith with a clear conscience.

My faith would not allow me to bake a cake to celebrate a union rejected by God. My faith would not allow me to take photographs to honor a union deemed sinful by Scriptures. If a court stated that I am required by law to do so, I would close my business and appeal to a higher court.

WASHINGTON ”” Oregon couple Aaron and Melissa Klein were forced to close their bakery after declining to bake a wedding cake for a lesbian marriage ceremony and are now facing the threat of having to pay $150,000 in damages.

Seated next to his wife at a panel on marriage at the Values Voter Summit on Friday, Aaron talked about their faith and what Melissa's bakery meant to her before they had to shut down their business.

"The boycotting, the harassment. I mean, quite frankly, they didn't just harass us they harassed the other wedding vendors that we did business with," Aaron told the audience without going into too much detail about their case due to pending litigation. "It cut off our referral system, we had to shut the shop down. … We were facing in excess of $150,000 in damages for this, just for simply standing by my First Amendment rights."

"I can't say it more forcefully," Aaron continued, "what it came down to was that [my wife] has a God-given talent to create a work of art to celebrate a union between two people." read more at :
http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-couple-forced-to-close-bakery-due-to-gay-activism-may-face-over-150k-in-damages-127331/

Mary Jane,

Your daughter has the right to do whatever she feels convicted to do, I meant nothing toward her personally. My remarks were to make people think about where else might a Christian be around homosexual people and show them the love of Christ?

Isn't it the goodness of God that leads each one of us to repentance? How can God be good or show forth His goodness to homosexuals without using a Christian to do it? I'm being honest, I'd like to know! Did Jesus not say, "If you only love those who love you, what good are you?"

I wasn't picking on you or your daughter, Mary Jane, you asked a question and I tried my best to answer it. I hope none of my words came across as hateful or mean or smart alec because they were not spoken that way.

God bless you,
Lisa

Proudpapa,

You know what? I realize I'm different than most Christians but I can only hope that if I had that bakery in Oregon, I would have prayed and sung over that cake while making it AND praying over everyone who ate it in the name of Jesus that God would save and deliver them all!! :) :) :)

You don't have to agree with anything about their lifestyle to bake them a cake. :)

God bless,
Lisa

Amen Lisa

I see it like this; would it wrong a for a Christian to work in management for the porn industry? Would it be wrong for a Christian to work at a strip club even if he/she doesn't see the stripper?

Also, would it be wrong for a Christian who does graphic design to do designs promoting all kinds of debauchery such as sexual perversion, drunkenness, illicit drug use, etc., getting paid for doing perverted designs with explicit wording? Or even if they themselves didn't do the designs but worked in management for a company that focused on doing those kinds of designs would it be wrong?

I know that many "Christians" these days would have no problem with the above examples. There are even some "ministries" out there in which "Christian ladies" dress like strippers and go into strip clubs to try to reach strippers. It's a sign of the times of great apostasy in which we live.

Despite the need to work and make ends meet, there are certain boundaries we cannot cross. Otherwise we will be hypocrites and ruin our testimony before a watching world.

Let's not be deceived, we are commanded to be holy as He is holy-1Peter 1:16, because without holiness no one will see the Lord-Hebrews 12:14.

Personally, I don't think that a requirement like this would ultimately stand up in court. Would society demand that a restaurant owned by African Americans be required to serve racist KKK clan members dressed in their vile robes? There are plenty of establishments that can be "selective" on who they serve.

...

Ultimately, an American has a Constitutional right to exercise his/her religious faith. No law can be passed that would diminish that right. A privately owned business is owned by individuals and courts have already stated that "a sole proprietor is the same as the person."

How about a reversal of your proposed scenario - where KKK clan members refuse to serve African Americans due to their beliefs?

In America, there is the Constitution. However, there is also legislation (e.g. Civil Rights Act, Equal Protection Clause) prohibiting racial discrimination in various contexts. It is not far-fetched to imagine these laws could be extended to prohibit 'discrimination' against same-sex couples, which is already taking place as in that news article which Proudpapa shared.

Even the First Amendment and its accompanying Free Exercise of Religion clause have been restricted in the past (c.f. Wikipedia on past judicial cases). Past legal precedents can be extended to suppress the expression of the Christian faith, so it wouldn't be too hard to restrict its practice if there is sufficient support for it in the future.

Generally, the law doesn't always work according to its literal reading, and is allowed to be re-interpreted according to the times (I guess one has to become a lawyer to know the laws he has to obey!). While I do not espouse this, this is sometimes the more pragmatic approach given that the law is replete with holes and contradictions. This applies to the American Constitution too, which was crafted by man according to the flawed ideals of the Enlightenment era.

It should be noted that in other Western countries such as the UK, Christian businesses are already coerced to provide services to same-sex couples. Fundamentally, religious rights are in conflict with a twisted notion of equality, and some courts have decided that the latter should trump the former.

But these days, businesses can have an online presence and participate in various crowdsourcing and freelancing options. So perhaps Christian businesses will find clever ways to go about this! - "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves." (Matt 10:16)

Hi Lysa,

Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth... (1 Cor 13:6)

I think Lysa's point is that if we separate ourselves from all contact with homosexuals, who is going to reach them with the gospel?

Someone below made a comment about strip clubs. I used to attend a church where a group of women would go into a local strip club; they would take in small gifts for the girls, meet with them in their dressing room, get to know them, pray with them and as a result many of these girls got out of the business. Now the women from my church did not dress like strippers.. But one of them (who led this ministry) knew all about what these girls were involved in because she used to be one.

What is better- a church who refuses to allow such a ministry because of the "scandalous" nature of it or because these women were "rejoicing in iniquity" or a church that endorses this ministry because these girls in strip clubs need a Savior?

If Christians totally isolate themselves, how will sinners hear the gospel. Didn't Jesus tell us to "go?"

"To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by **all means** I might save some." 1 Cor. 9:22

Let me put it this way: If a Christian baker bakes a cake for a homosexual couple and as a result a relationship is formed and the couple get saved and comes out of their sin, and later when the christian baker dies, do you really think God will say "Well done, my good and faithful servant (but you really shouldn't have baked that cake)."

We can preach the gospel to the lost without supporting their sins. While Christ hung out with and preached the gospel to tax collectors and prostitutes, He did not participate in their sin for one second. I don't believe He would have done His first recorded miracle at a homosexual wedding, would He? If you say He would have then we have a different understanding of His character, or may even have a different Jesus, just sayin.

Pragmatism(if it works, do it) is one of the biggest plagues within Christendom today. So many Christians and churches will do just about anything to be relevant to the culture, from doing full fledged circus-style church services with dressed up clowns and elephants (I kid you not, look it up on YouTube), to putting on satanic-style death metal concerts, to serving beer after services, etc.

I guess my biggest issue is it just seems sad that some seem to equate standing on conviction over a matter as not being loving. It requires more love to speak truth to a person then it does to say nothing. IT cost more too...

I have love for all who are lost doesn't matter much what their sin is. I love them but I won't ignore or support the sin. I pray for the lost regardless of who they are. Just because I would not attend a gay wedding does not mean there is a lack of love. I wouldn't drive and unwed mother to the abortion clinic either. I wouldn't help unmarried couple move in together, and I wouldn't drive the get a way car for a bank robber....but I will pray for them and extend love to them as GOD gave me leading.

God bless
maryjane

I wouldn't drive and unwed mother to the abortion clinic either. I wouldn't help unmarried couple move in together, and I wouldn't drive the get a way car for a bank robber....but I will pray for them and extend love to them as GOD gave me leading.

Imo this is an example of a biblical way to reach homosexuals or any other groups:

(Warning, at about the 6:25 mark there is profanity spoken for a few seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUKR8kXlhUQ

I know that many Christians and churches today would oppose that type of "outreach".

I know that there are many hateful so-called Christian groups out there that do not preach the gospel but only preach hate. But I don't believe that that brother in that vid would fit in that category. He is simply preaching the gospel and warning them in love and you can tell by his demeanor and attitude as he preaches.

The reason I thought I'd share the link to that vid is to share an example of the need to actually preach the gospel to the lost and not just do nice things for people.

I agree that this kind of preaching is needed. I am not sure how effective it is but nonetheless it is needed.

And it is not just being nice to people. It is showing kindness as a stepping stone to sharing the gospel.

Greetings Frank

I would guess you did whatever you felt the LORD leading you to do. I have no issue with people following the LORD leading in their lives. I have learned there are times when HE has me speak and other times when HE has me remain silent.

As for attending the gay wedding, its interesting. I knew a young man in his late twenties who professed to be a Christian. He had a young wife who was five month pregnant when everyone in the church and his close BIBLE study group found out he had been having an affair and cheating on his wife. Once his sin was known there were those in the fellowship group that wanted to let him know that they still loved him no matter what sin he was in so after he left his wife, got a quickie divorce and promptly announced he was marrying his girlfriend,there were those same Christians who said yes they would attend the wedding.
They wanted to show their love for this person. One sister said its not our place to judge, we have to just love them.

Well not long after his second marriage ended in a shambles the young man was speaking to a brother from his fellowship and asked how could things have gone so wrong. This brother said well you had to know GOD was not in support of your sin with your second wife, leaving your first wife as you did and remarrying? The young man shook his head in confusion and said, but you all came to my wedding you supported what I was doing. You were there for me...as you can imagine the other brother in CHRIST was stunned. He told him his coming to the wedding to the second wife was not meant to support what he was doing but to show that he loved him. The young man was angry and said it would have been more loving to tell him the truth then to let him continue on in his sin. The young man actually left the church after that, called them all liars, the first wife left because she was heart broken that no one cared enough to stand in the gap for her family. Never knew what happened to the second wife.

I think we have to be really careful and walk a fine line. By going along and attempting to show love there are times when we can actually enable a person on their path to destruction. Sometimes its most loving to say "I love you but I can not do this for you. I can not over look the sin you are in because I know the destruction it will lead you too."

Just some thoughts on my heart. I would be glad to hear how the LORD lead you in your situation. What things HE placed upon your heart at the time.

God bless
mj

I agree that this kind of preaching is needed. I am not sure how effective it is but nonetheless it is needed.

And it is not just being nice to people. It is showing kindness as a stepping stone to sharing the gospel.

Regarding the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of such preaching, I believe we need not be too concerned with that as long as it's biblical. The Lord will not say to us at the Judgment, "Well done you good and SUCCESSFUL servant." Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness and only he and his family escaped the flood. Jeremiah was a weeping prophet with hardly any "success" to show for his ministry at the time that he preached and prophesied, and the list of faithful, persecuted saints can go on and on.

The thought came to mind, why isn't there much sensitivity toward sin today among Christians or churches? I'm reminded of the incident in Acts 14 where the people were trying to worship Paul and Barnabas after seeing a healing miracle performed by Paul. We see that Paul and Barnabas responded by tearing their clothes and crying out against that gross idolatry. In Acts 17 we're told that Paul's "spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols."

Where are the weeping saints today who are sensitive to the prevailing sins and perversions of society? May God raise up more in these last days. I know there's been times when the Lord has given me that kind of sensitivity but then I get complacent and desensitized and need to get back to that place of sensitivity.

Hi yuehan,

I suppose that I don't have a problem with ANY business that clearly spells out their views. I would never expect a restaurant owned by African Americans to serve vile KKK members in their robes -- especially if this is meant to be a "statement" or intimidation by the KKK members. The same is true of a Jewish owned business where individuals or groups that are opposed to Jews decide to try and provoke those individuals to violate their beliefs.

As for a reversal: I would have to wonder why an African American would WANT to support a restaurant that publicly proclaims their affiliation with racist ideology. Why would I -- as a believer in Jesus Christ -- want to support a restaurant that literally sacrifices food to idols? Why would I want to support a restaurant that embraces vile things like racism or anti-Christian hatred.

From a "liberty" perspective, I think that businesses and even organizations can have a set of beliefs that are publicized.

Like I said, there is a difference between serving individuals -- regardless of whether or not they are Christians or live contrary to Christian teaching -- and partaking in the sin itself through active participation (through services rendered).

The world tries to claim that there are "exemptions" for religious organizations in regard to certain things. For instance, Obamacare was pushed with the notion that it wouldn't force religious institutions or individuals in general to cover things like abortion. This turned out to be untrue. Remember Sandra Fluke? She was the unmarried 30 year old college student who wanted to force Georgetown University -- a Catholic school -- to pay for her contraceptives. Certain Americans defended her demands and tried to paint the idea of religious institutions or organizations not providing contraceptives or abortions as part of a "war on women."

I believe that the recent Hobby Lobby case will provide an avenue for even privately held corporations to maintain their liberty of conscience when it comes to such matters.

This isn't just applied to Christian organizations. Such laws could protect any groups -- religious or otherwise -- from violating their conscience or the "types" of businesses that they run. Non-christian websites with online forums (especially those that are open to the public and receive ad revenue) often delete the comments ("free speech") of those who don't align to the business's or organization's set of beliefs. This is not a bad thing -- no matter how incorrect or unfair it might seem to be.

The issue is one of how wide the First Amendment's free exercise clause and protections can be extended. I believe that it extends to the clear conscience of the individual business owner(s) and the individuals themselves. Christian publishers (including those that are not non-profits) can have a specific set of beliefs and values that guide their business model. They don't have to accept non-Christian literature. The worst thing that would happen to those who feel "discriminated" against is that they would need to go elsewhere. The same thing is true of Christians who encounter "discrimination" from non-Christians. If they refuse to serve you at a restaurant, then we simply know not to visit and support that restaurant in the future. There are probably many restaurants that would want our business anyway.

Frank, I am eager to hear your experience and thoughts on that situation. Our family has experienced something similar (but not with homosexuals). It is a difficult dilemma and I would like to get your feedback.

Many here have wrong idea about love. To take part in a Gay wedding which is clearly against the word of God is not showing love. It is actually opposite. We are actually encouraging them to perform an act that is against God's word by taking part in that wedding by taking pictures or making cake.

Jesus loved sinners and he was not against meeting them or eating with them. But during all that meeting he would be speaking against their sinful life style. He only accepted sinners who repented.

The clearest picture of Love is what Jesus told in the parable of Prodigal Son. If you see the father who is a picture of God the father, loved his prodigal son so much that he did absolutely NOTHING when his son was longing for pigs food. He would have got news about his son's condition but never really wanted to encourage him by sending him some pigs food. But when the son came to senses and started walking towards his father's house then he came running towards him. True love is not in encouraging a sinful act.

We have an elder in our Church who worked as a Anesthesia specialist. He was asked to attend women who were going through abortion. He told his management, that he will never attend an abortion case because it is against his faith in assisting a killing. When they threatened him, he told them that he is willing to die and leave the world anytime, so their threats meant nothing to him.

A doctor attending an abortion and showing love for a women doing it is nothing different from a photographer encouraging a gay wedding.

Let me tell you something about Gay wedding, it is not just against the word of God but it is also against our society. It is something that devalues marriage in our society. Just like how printing fake currency devalues real currency and is not a healthy practice. A gay marriage is a fake marriage that will bring the value down of marriage. As a community we should be against it. But sadly the Price of this world has blinded the eyes of many. It appears that even Christians here are deceived who believe that by love you can attend such wedding.

Thank you all for your feedback, I do appreciate it. And I think I'm pretty much in agreement here with everybody else. My original post was me more or less "thinking out loud," and I wanted to see how that was working out.

I'm against gay marriage entirely, even though I conceed that it may indeed be something the US Constitution permits. But that's neither here nor there.

My basic thought about it originally in regard to 1 Cor 8 was the idea that if it is ok for a Christian to eat meat sacrificed to idols, "because the idol is nothing," then perhaps it is ok to do things like bake a cake or provide photography services at a gay marriage, using a similar line of reasoning. That is, since God doesn't recognize gay marriages, then perhaps we could say "because the marriage is nothing," therefore, we could in clear conscience as a business vendor provide services to these events, even though we reject it. I know... a bit of a stretch... but, I'm just trying to think of a solution to an issue that will cause many believers much trouble in the legal system.

Personally, I think we might try our best to make use of Christian lawyers who could help us come up with some creative solutions to the issue, to keep us free from as much legal trouble as possible, as some have suggested in recent posts.

Some know here I have been in the a/c and heating business since 1984, I also have a few "homosexual" customers. I don't call the gay or etc. I call them what they are "homosexual". I still go to calls at their homes, do I feel comfortable? no I don't at all. God has not spoken to me personally to stop, all of them speak about God, and also have prayed for me many times during the past 5 years, as I have endured some tragedies in my life. I don't condone that lifestyle at all, but as Lysa mentioned, how do they have a chance to ever come to Christ and change, if we Christians stay inside the loop?

Mary Jane,

I am late in joining the conversation here, but just want to tell you that I deeply appreciate your daughter's willingness to live out her convictions. She is to be complemented and praised for doing the right thing. Please tell her what I said - not that it may mean a whole lot, but I am of the belief we need to encourage each other in these days of extreme wickedness.

You mentioned dress - I concur. I am also shocked at the flagrant immodesty displayed by many brides and not only that, the dancing. I know little about dancing but many of the videos I have seen on the web are vulgar - the twisting of the body...it always reminds me of a worm that has been injured and how it twists and turns.

Anyhow, bless your daughter for me, will you?

God bless.

Sandra Miller

Mary Jane,

I did not read this before I posted. Once again, I want to bless you for sharing this story. I agree 100%.

Attending a wedding shows support for this union, whether it be a homosexual affair or a heterosexual one. If the union is not Biblical one better stay away. To participate in one that is not Biblical is assisting the couple in their sin and it matters not if these people are your friends, children or another relative. God is not partial and neither should we be.

God bless

Sandra