Grace Rules by Gary Wilkerson

We have all been blessed in Christ BEFORE we were even born.
This blessing can not be the result of our faith, belief, surrender, repentance or any work at all.

Have I got this wrong? It seems to me that (after listening to Gary's preaching for a couple of month) that the son of David Wilkerson has shifted his focus concerning the preaching towards a message predominantly about grace (with a so to speak Joseph Prince-ish type of message). I hope I am wrong about this. I also felt that the style of worship in Garry's congregation was too contemporary/progressive (a kind of rock n roll/pop worship)..

Sincerely Magnus

Thanks for the answer tuc. Was getting concerned there for a bit and getting ready to put on my heresy hunting hat, just kidding ;) I would have tried to be as respectful as possible though strongly disagreeing.

I would like to know why you disagreed with my statement.

Yes Christ died for ALL sinners! Every single one of them.
This is a Divine Fact that is unchangeable. Even if someone never repents or believes, Christ died for them.

1. Do you believe Christ Died on the Cross?
2. If a person does not believe that, does not mean He did not die on the Cross?
3. Did Christ die for every single person or were some excluded?
4. If some were excluded please explain how and why they were excluded.

Thanks

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=53416&forum=36&19

"When it comes to the atonement, I lean toward both a limited atonement and general atonement.

By limited atonement I mean that Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of His elect, thus eternally saving them from God's ultimate wrath because Christ took that ultimate wrath on Himself.

By general atonement I mean that Christ also paid partially for the sins of the non-elect and therefore they are able to live temporarily in this life without immediately being thrown into hell when they commit a sin. Because of this general atonement God can bestow temporal blessings on the non-elect here on earth. Without this general atonement there would be no forbearance of God toward the non-elect.

Respectfully, the view of a full atonement for the whole world doesn't make sense to me. If it was true that Christ actually paid fully for the sins of the non-elect, to me it would have to follow that they shouldn't perish in hell because their sins have been paid for...."

In that thread brother Greg asked, "Where do we see this view in Scripture brother?" to which I replied,

"Sure. First I'd point out 1Timothy 4:10 which says that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

I'd also point out the clear teaching of the scriptures that the soul that sins will die (Ezek.18:4)and that the wages of sin is death(Rom.6:23), meaning not only physical but also spiritual and eternal damnation. Apart from the mercy of God and benefits of the cross of Christ, every person would be thrown into hell immediately when they sinned.

I'll share a piece from John Piper's ministry website(MacArthur also holds this same two-fold view of the atonement btw):

"We do not deny that all men are the intended beneficiaries of the cross in some sense. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that all men are intended as the beneficiaries of the death of Christ in the same way. All of God’s mercy toward unbelievers ”” from the rising sun (Matthew 5:45) to the worldwide preaching of the gospel (John 3:16) ”” is made possible because of the cross.

This is the implication of Romans 3:25 where the cross is presented as the basis of God’s righteousness in passing over sins. Every breath that an unbeliever takes is an act of God’s mercy withholding judgment (Romans 2:4). Every time the gospel is preached to unbelievers it is the mercy of God that gives this opportunity for salvation.

Whence does this mercy flow to sinners? How is God just to withhold judgment from sinners who deserve to be immediately cast into hell? The answer is that Christ’s death so clearly demonstrates God’s just abhorrence of sin that he is free to treat the world with mercy without compromising his righteousness. In this sense Christ is the savior of all men.

But he is especially the Savior of those who believe. He did not die for all men in the same sense. The intention of the death of Christ for the children of God was that it purchase far more than the rising sun and the opportunity to be saved. The death of Christ actually saves from ALL evil those for whom Christ died "especially.”

There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God’s people, not for every individual. For example:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep.” The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.” Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son."

Source: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-we-believe-about-the-five-points-of-calvinism#Atonement

"Another scripture that came to mind is 2Peter 2:1, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction."

So that scripture says that there were false teachers whom the Lord "bought". I'd take that to mean a partial, temporal purchase, if those false teachers never repented and trusted in Christ while on earth."

Hope that helps explain where I am on this topic. I know this is one of those "non-essential" issues among Christians so there is no need to divide over it. In other words, whether one believes Christ died fully in the same exact way for all sinners both elect and non-elect, or whether one believes in a limited atonement as I explained is not a salvation issue.

But I was glad to hear that you don't believe in universalism (meaning that everyone is going to heaven). Clearly one must repent and trust in Christ in this life for the forgiveness of their sins. That is an essential, salvation issue.

The concept of election does a great disservice to the understanding of the atonement. May I speak of my own early exposure to Christianity?

John Calvin's theology still underpinning much of evangelical Christianity held that God was free to elect from the men and women He'd created some to be saved and some to be lost. Since they were all triple damned in the first place- Adam's sin, their sinful nature, and their own sin- none has a claim to the Grace of God anyway. God alone has the right to choose the ones that will be saved.

When I was taught all this in my Presbyterian church upbringing, I was also instructed to wait for God to call me and only then would I know I was one of the elect. He was "the author and finisher" of my faith, my will had little or nothing to do with it. Who was I to tell God who should be saved, who to be damned. "Shall the clay say to the potter??" And verses like that.

So it made sense that the punishments inflicted on Jesus at the cross were in exact proportion to the volume of sins being paid for, the exact sins for the exact number of souls God would be saving. It was called "retributive justice," just like old testament "an eye for an eye."

Oh what a dilemma this presents. No wonder a strong movement of universalism developed, men who saw this as so unjust- many refused to serve a God with such an arbitrary attitude toward men! They concluded that if Christ paid the price of one sinner, He paid the price of all. Nothing less could qualify as justice.

The error in all this goes back to Calvin's foundational presupposition that all men are so constitutionally depraved that God has no obligation to save any of them. A God of love would not put Himself in that position, and His character never gets to a place where some men are meaningless to Him.

Powerful words of Scripture, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance." That is His eternal attitude, and comports easily with the true explanation of Christ's atoning work.

Jesus did not die under the weight of a certain number of individual sins. He died for just one man's sins without respect to numbers. He took the sins of one man, of many men, of all men- who repent! His sacrifice is sufficient to save any and all men who ever existed and sinned, but- and this is important- it does not obligate Him to save anyone!

If all men repented and believed, all would be saved. But if no man repented and believed, Christ's death would still stand before God as the Holy provision for man's redemption, preserving His eternal love and honor.

Of course, we live in the midst of this. We know people who are repentant members of the body and unrepentant sinners for whom the blood avails nothing. And this is the beacon light of our evangelistic mission, to convince men at home and abroad to acknowledge their sin, to repent, and to receive that mighty forgiveness in the blood of the savior. Nowhere in the scripture are we advised to determine whether anyone is elect before declaring the gospel, rather we have a field ripe for harvest and way too few laborers!

This view of atonement is called public justice, and it destroys both the evangelistic hesitation of election, and the anarchy of lawless universalism.

By whatever happened in your life you came to Christ with a humbled heart and asked for forgiveness- He did not hesitate to give it to you. Nor will He hesitate to give forgiveness to anyone else who asks for it, there is nothing in the gospel that excludes any man from His Grace.

Would that all men see Him for what He is, and bow before Him while they still have breath!

I have had great reluctance to post some of the devotionals written by Gary Wilkerson on their email list of David Wilkerson's devotions. Many things I agree with but overall there was a sense of the modern grace gospel message that has no fear of God, holiness of God, repentance of sin, etc.

Essentially the modern grace teachers are saying that 1950 years of Church history was wrong, legalistic and command keeping and not grace living, etc.

Initially I had similar reservations too about Gary Wilkerson's devotionals. Later I realized that it was my understanding of the New Covenant that was defective. And once I began to see the truth of the gospel and experience its reality, my life changed and I am determined to never go back.

Gary Wilkerson's preaching on grace and sanctification by faith are not new doctrines. Many speakers on this website have expounded on them, including Hudson Taylor, Andrew Murray, Watchman Nee... It's part of the
Reformed tradition, and goes all the way back to Luther and Calvin. Of course, you can trace this further back to the Bible, and that's the only thing which matters.

This excerpt from the Belgic Confession (1561) captures the truth beautifully:

"We believe that this true faith, being wrought in man by the hearing of the Word of God and the operation of the Holy Spirit, regenerates him and makes him a new man, causing him to live a new life, and freeing him from the bondage of sin. Therefore it is so far from being true that his justifying faith makes men remiss in a pious and holy life, that on the contrary without it they would never do anything out of love to God, but only out of self-love or fear of damnation. Therefore, it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man; for we do not speak of a vain faith, but of such a faith which is called in Scripture a 'faith working through love', which excites man to the practice of those works which God has commanded in His Word... We would always be in doubt, tossed to and fro without any certainty, and our poor consciences would be continually vexed if they relied not on the merits of the suffering and death of our Saviour."

In Gary Wilkerson's carefully polished article he references Luke and tells of the many thousands of people who had come to Jesus to be healed of their diseases and to be set free from demons. He emphasizes how each and every one was healed because Jesus brought grace instead of law.

The reality of the event was probably not quite so rosy. Not to argue with Luke, and I was not there- but other passages indicate that not all were healed everywhere Jesus went. The edge of the pool at Bethesda was teeming with sick people, but apparently only one came into Jesus' grace there, the man with the miserable 38 years.

In Mark 6:5 it is noted that the unbelief among his local countrymen prevented Him from doing great works, He was only able to lay a healing hand on very few. Jesus depended on finding faith to work with the grace He had to offer! He often concluded a work of healing with these words, "Your faith has made you well."

I was considering a snide remark that maybe Gary Wilkerson is listening to too much Joel Osteen, but I am not going to go there.

Initially I had similar reservations too about Gary Wilkerson's devotionals. Later I realized that it was my understanding of the New Covenant that was defective. And once I began to see the truth of the gospel and experience its reality, my life changed and I am determined to never go back.

Amen, the truth of the New Covenant is the most liberating and sin-destroying truth of the Bible. Yes, some have run with it in the wrong direction, into licentiousness, but a true understanding of this truth sets men free.

The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
(Psalms 25:14)

In Christ,

Ron

Amen, the truth of the New Covenant is the most liberating and sin-destroying truth of the Bible. Yes, some have run with it in the wrong direction, into licentiousness, but a true understanding of this truth sets men free.

However, the truth is that - "Antinomianism and Legalism are not opposites of one another; they are both opposites of the grace of God in the gospel." (Sinclair Ferguson)

So the truth of God is not between both ends, but it transcends the entire spectrum! That's not something which human minds can conceive, and thus requires revelation from God.

Indeed, it is only through revelation that the gospel of God can ever be known - "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:26-27)

I do have a real problem with your belief on this subject and even disagree with it completely and even vehemently disagree that this is "non-essential" issue among Christians.

So if I get this the meaning of this teaching here is what I would have to say if asked to talk in front of a church to proclaim the Good news of the gospel.

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"I am here to tell you the good news of the gospel and that Christ died for you, opps ”“ wait, I forgot that Christ only died for some of you and if you are not one of God’s elect you are doomed forever to hell. You have been excluded and there is absolutely nothing that you can ever do anything about it.”

"None of the promises of God apply to you and since Christ did not die for you, you can not believe or repent. You will continue to sin daily without any hope whatsoever and then spend eternity in hell.”
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This is NOT the gospel and if you teach this, someone could get the idea that they are not one of the "elect” and as a result do nothing because they feel rejected by God Himself.

It is impossible to be saved if you if you do believe that Christ died for you. If you are excluded then there is no hope at all!

It also seems that there is a misunderstanding on the gospel message that has been and is still preached by Calvinistic preachers. We do not preach that sinners must passively wait for God to save them. That is "Hyper-Calvinism" and is heretical. Rather, we preach that God calls all men everywhere to repent now, today, for tomorrow is promised to no man. We preach that man is responsible for his sinfulness and continual rebellion against God. We preach Christ crucified and risen to save sinners; whoever will call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Whosoever will may come; Christ bids all to come to Him and promises He will by no means cast out anyone who comes to Him in humble repentance and faith. The gospel call and invitation is given to all without respect of persons.

We understand that God chooses to save His elect through the preaching of the biblical gospel. Our duty as witnesses of Christ is to preach the gospel and plead with sinners to repent and trust Christ now. God takes that preached message and uses it with the unction of His Spirit to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment, and to bring sinners to saving repentance and faith and regeneration.

Even if one believes in man's free will when it comes to salvation, you still must believe in predestination because that is clearly taught in the Word. You still must accept the fact that God already knows who will and will not be saved in the end, because He is omniscient. So even if you are Arminian in your theology there is still this element of God's sovereignty (His omniscience) which you must acknowledge.

So we don't know who is or isn't predestined for salvation as we preach the gospel. That's not for us to know when preaching the gospel. Again, our duty us to faithfully scatter the seed and leave the results with God. This knowledge frees us from trying to be manipulative or watering down the gospel, and from being too discouraged. We can go out spreading the gospel with full assurance that God's Word will not return to Him void but will accomplish everything He designs for it to accomplish, whether it is a savor of life unto life for some, or of death unto death for others. In both cases God will be glorified.

Oracio! You express yourself well, and I find it interesting that your sense of the urgent call to sinners to repent is unhindered by the Calvinist lean of your theology! Your love for the kingdom and those who will fill it is evident in the grace with which you write.

Better to be a Calvinist with a passion for the lost than an Arminian sitting in hopeless gloom!

We know that some men hear the gospel and respond, and many hear it and do not. Jesus' parable of the sower and the seeds lays that out very well. But whether Calvinist or Arminian, we are to sow good seed! We do not have any part of the final accounting this side of the fulness of the kingdom.

I have never read any of the works of Gary Wilkerson. David Wilkerson was one of my heros. But never attracted to read any of this man's work. Read this article and found that it is deception carefully wrapped up with some truth. So from outword it looks like great truth but inside it is deception.

And so Christ urges us, "Why don’t you take that scale of your own making and lay it down at the foot of the cross? I NEVER CALLED you to APPEASE me. I have called you to do one thing: receive my blessing of grace.

Probably he has to tell this saying of Jesus to Paul who writes in 2 Cor 5:9 & 10 that we (saved Church going people) should have an attitude to PLEASE God because we have to appear before his judgment seat.
Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we all should appear before the judgment seat of Christ,...

You have nothing to bring to him because he has already spoken his blessing over you. Receive it ”” and enter every good work he has prepared for you by grace

If I have nothing to bring or offer to God then why did Jesus say give to God what God deserved, which is our Body that is created in the image of him. Why did Paul is asking us to submit our body as a pure sacrifice which is worship (Romans 12:2).

He is taking the people who were healed when they touched Jesus in Luke 6:19 as an example of Grace. Momentary Healing is different from Salvation. I believe most of them who touched Jesus that day would have ended up in Hell though they were physically healed. Only those who repented and endured till the end, on hearing the apostles would be saved. The physical healing is different from spiritual healing. Take the case of 10 Leppers only the Samaritan turned to follow Jesus and thank him. Others went on their way. It is clear that the base of this article it self is ERROR in understanding the scripture.

It is true that we should not press on to perfection ourselves by our strength to appease God, but we should let God work in us by submitting our Body to him, else we would be resisting his grace. Workout what God's grace is working inside us.

And so Christ urges us, "Why don’t you take that scale of your own making and lay it down at the foot of the cross? I NEVER CALLED you to APPEASE me. I have called you to do one thing: receive my blessing of grace.

Probably he has to tell this saying of Jesus to Paul who writes in 2 Cor 5:9 & 10 that we (saved Church going people) should have an attitude to PLEASE God because we have to appear before his judgment seat.

There is a difference between APPEASE and PLEASE, one seeks to pacify, the other to satisfy.

It is true that we should not press on to perfection ourselves by our strength to appease God, but we should let God work in us by submitting our Body to him, else we would be resisting his grace. Workout what God's grace is working inside us.

Isn't that the gist of the article?

Also, you mentioned the physical healings as being only momentary, and that is true, physical healing is temporary, ephemeral, like a shadow of something else that is more real than it. Physical healing is like a sign-post pointing the way towards spiritual healing. The healings were a physical sermon that would hopefully teach the lesson that "Jesus saves" in an eternal sense.

In Christ,

Dear Greg,

Check this out - an American missionary's testimony on how the grace of God freed him from lust and pornogrpahy:

Part 1: http://bit.ly/2fD8AmH

Part 2: http://bit.ly/2kgFOxg

He provides a great exposition on Romans too, and perhaps captures the truth of Gary Wilkerson's message in a more cogent way.

Let us diligently enter into His rest!!

edit: testimony belongs to Dustin Horstmann

There is a difference between APPEASE and PLEASE, one seeks to pacify, the other to satisfy.

yes i know there is a difference. appease also includes pleasing. to certain degree appease is expected by God, which includes both pleasing and repentance. no sinner is automatically reconciled. it is deceptive to say that nothing is needed. The line I quoted from this article says even pleasing God is not needed.

Isn't that the gist of the article?

see I am not a Calvinist. I hold the entire Bible, not just few selected verses. That is why I am able to see the deception in the midst of the gist of this article. A guy like you whom I assume a Calvinist will be blinded by the gist alone and not see the false teachings placed inside it. I am not saying Calvinism is the deception, but the other extreme of Grace placed in this article is the deception. You will see it only if you stop seeing things out of your theological box. No matter how much I explain, it will only be like explaining color to a blind.

Also, you mentioned the physical healings as being only momentary, and that is true, physical healing is temporary, ephemeral, like a shadow of something else that is more real than it. Physical healing is like a sign-post pointing the way towards spiritual healing. The healings were a physical sermon that would hopefully teach the lesson that "Jesus saves" in an eternal sense.

I disagree. Jesus did not come giving physical healing alone. He gave real spiritual healing. He did not come to give shadow of spiritual healing alone. He came to give real spiritual healing. See Zacchaeus who received the real spiritual healing, freedom from love of money. To Zacchaeus Jesus said salvation has come to your home, but to those whom he healed he never said that. Instead to them he warned them not to sin else much worse will happen. The point is we cannot create a theology out of healing and applying it to salvation. That is why I find this article fundamentally wrong.

A guy like you whom I assume a Calvinist will be blinded by the gist alone and not see the false teachings placed inside it.

You assume incorrectly.

Jesus did not come giving physical healing alone. He gave real spiritual healing. He did not come to give shadow of spiritual healing alone. He came to give real spiritual healing.

Isn't that what I said?

In Christ,

Tuc,

That testimony belongs to Dustin Horstmann, who's currently based in Taiwan. You can look for him on Twitter and Facebook - he regularly shares short devotionals, they are great stuff.

From the article brother Greg posted

Let’s say a young man with a pornography addiction wants to be set free. He also tends to have a "works” mentality. One night he reads the following passage: "How can a young man keep his way pure? By guarding it according to your word” (Psalm 119:9, ESV). The young man thinks if he reads his Bible more, he’ll find freedom. Next he reads a passage that says, "Pray for one another.” So he joins a men’s accountability group and asks them to pray for him.

All the actions he has taken are good but in his heart, he is depending on doing things””on works””to provide the freedom he seeks. Yet this mentality only drives him farther down into bondage and despair. Following after Christ is not dependent on works””working to receive what only God can supply by faith.

Another young man in the same church is also struggling with pornography. He prays, "Lord, I’m helpless without You and I know that all too well. Yet, I also know that You are my hope. I come to You now, leaving behind my despair and trusting You to do a work in me. I know I need just one thing to overcome this sin: Your empowering grace. Let it roll over me now. Otherwise, I’m hopeless.”

This man will be met by God’s empowering grace. Why? Because he has knocked down every barrier that is preventing him from that grace””all with one simple prayer.

"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."-Matthew 5:29-30

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Brother Greg, I acknowledge I posted too much on this thread on the issue of limited atonement or Calvinism in general after tuc asked me about my views on that, and for that I apologize. I agree that this issue addressed in this thread is not really about that.

After reading a recent post here I just want to say here that I and probably most every other Christian who has theological leanings as myself don't believe in any form of cheap grace, sloppy agape, or easy-believism. I believe in what is sometimes called Lordship Salvation, meaning you can't have Christ as Savior without also having Him as Lord of your life and submitting to His lordship.

Hi Oracio - have you read Dustin's testimony which I posted above on God's grace setting him free from lust and pornography?

Hi Oracio - have you read Dustin's testimony which I posted above on God's grace setting him free from lust and pornography?

I briefly glanced at them and saw they were quite lengthy, especially the second one. Unfortunately, I'm a slow reader and don't think I'd have time to read through them and participate in this thread simultaneously. Could you give a synopsis?

Paul writes: "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." (Romans 6:14)

Brief excerpts:

1. "Then I saw it: The purpose of Christ’s death was to die to sin. I was freely joined to His death. And God had already shown me Romans 7, that I am helpless apart from Him. I was to look to Him!

Childlike trust in the midst of temptation: Up to this point, I was still being very tempted by lust. But when I saw the above, though it sounds childlike, the weight of my trust went from Dustin Horstmann to Jesus Christ, and in that moment, I felt power, like I had never felt before, and the temptation broke off of me like it was nothing."

2. "I felt great temptations to lust that in the past easily would defeat me. I said to myself, "No man could say no to this temptation. It is so alluring."

God wanted me to hear myself say that because Christianity isn’t about what man can give to God, but what God gives to man through Christ.

I remembered Christ, and said something like, "Even though this temptation is too great for me, Christ freed me from it, 2000 years ago." I looked to Him in trust and immediately this temptation broke off like it was nothing."

yuehan, I managed to read the testimony and thought it was interesting. I can see much truth in it but I do have some reservations because I am convinced from Scripture that we play a part in our sanctification; it's not all God and none of us. For example, if one is struggling with pornography they are commanded to pluck out their eye, meaning do whatever it takes to get rid of it. That can mean getting rid of a computer or having someone put a filter on it, or moving away from a family member's home that is filled with filthy pictures on the wall, etc. Of course we must do all this while praying fervently for deliverance from the Lord, but the Lord will require we do our part if we are serious about gaining victory in those areas. That is how I was delivered from that particular sin myself. I had to cry out to God for His strength but at the same time I had to do my part in getting rid of certain hindrances or obstacles that placed me in temptation.

Like brother Greg pointed out, there is a middle ground between legalism and hyper-grace when it comes to our sanctification.

As I was reading through the Gary Wilkerson article shared in the OP I had serious concerns about it. Unfortunately, based on the copyright notice at the bottom it seems one can't post from the article onto any website. Otherwise I would have liked to post some of it and give feedback. But basically my concern is that it smacks of the modern hyper-grace message. I had serious issues concerning interpretation of certain passages of Scripture. I got the sense that Gary Wilkerson may be opposed to the kind of hard repentance messages which his father preached and if that is indeed the case it is unfortunate.

Like brother Greg pointed out, there is a middle ground between legalism and hyper-grace when it comes to our sanctification.

If there's something which we should be doing, it is to *trust* Christ (John 6:28-29) - to trust His character, His work on the cross, and our identity in Him. God has given us every spiritual blessing (Ephesians 1:3), but it is through faith that we lay hold of them - then we will begin to experience the reality of these spiritual facts (Romans 12:2).

The best way to express our love to God is to trust Him. This is the primary "work" which we are called to do (John 6:28-29), and the obedience which God requires (Romans 6:17).

My experience:

God set me free from a very long struggle with lust. Details are different from Dustin's testimony... essentially I just took hold of God's truth about my identity, and I began to renew my mind with the truth. After a few days, I found to my surprise that my struggle with lust had largely dissipated.

Formerly, I was in bondage to sin. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how many rules I imposed on myself (and I went about it very legalistically, with very conservative rules), it availed nothing. What I was doing was trying to suppress the power of sin, but that did not liberate me from it. However, Christ came precisely to set us free - free from the power of sin, and free to live unto God.

I thought I wasn't trying hard enough - I needed to try even harder. This was in spite of having done that for many years - it was a fruitless strategy, and brought further guilt and condemnation. However, up till then it was the only means that I knew.

When I started to understand the truth of my identity and renewed my mind accordingly, I began to experience its reality and my life was forever transformed. All I did was to grab hold of God's truth, and receive my identity from Jesus Christ by faith. My life soon changed dramatically, and I began to experience freedom in a very real way.

Dustin Horstmann gave a very good exposition of Romans - which highlights the biblical basis of trusting in Christ and sanctification by faith. He also refutes "try-harder" theology - which is extremely toxic, because it diverts attention away from Christ to our efforts. That is contrary to the message of the gospel, and diminishes the work of Christ.

I know the above truths are indeed true, because I have experienced these realities. No one can take that away from me. I would encourage reading Romans prayerfully, and I hope that many others will come to experience the reality of the truth - that's Jesus Christ Himself (John 14:6).

yeuhan, you mentioned that if there is something we must do it is to trust Christ when it comes to our sanctification. I agree, but what about repentance(Luke 13:5)? When we are shown any particular shin we've committed and are convicted, would you agree one must also repent(confess and forsake that sin) as well as trust in Christ?

What about for salvation, would you agree that is necessary?

Quote from Martyn Lloyd-Jones:

"If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ."

yuehan, you mentioned that if there is something we must do it is to trust Christ when it comes to our sanctification. I agree, but what about repentance(Luke 13:5)? When we are shown any particular shin we've committed and are convicted, would you agree one must also repent(confess and forsake that sin) as well as trust in Christ?

What about for salvation, would you agree that is necessary?

And real trust in Christ is made evident in works...

And Christ did not save us just so that we will "try better", or even "try our best". He came to live in us... we are a new creation in Him, a new man with a new nature. That's the only way humans can be free from the power of sin.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good Works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-26 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:3-7 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:15-16 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Believing is the work in the Christians life.

What you believe about Jesus Christ and who is and what he has done and what he is now is the most important thing about you.

Jesus Christ is not a theological concept, he is 'I am' he is God. He is everything!

He is the lamb, he is the vine, and we are in him now, continually hid with him.

It is generally accepted that if anyone had to see God we would be vaporized in an instant, did we have to do anything for that to happen. No, we just had to come and stand there and let it happen. He is God. Our flesh cannot help but respond this way, not based upon what I am but on what he is!! In the presence of heat flesh will burn

Its the same with us now, we are in Christ, he is righteousness, sanctification and redemption. He is God!! In Christ we are seated with him in heavenly places, united to God himself by himself. He is Jehovah Mkaddesh, he is jehovah tsidkenu. He is this! What do I have to do for this to be my life? Stand there and believe? In the presence of immaculate holiness mortal flesh will become Holy.

Do I have to do anything for the sun to burn me, yes, I have to go outside, not take an umbrella, not put on any clothes. Thats the work! How many sincere believers live under cloudy skies, covered from head to foot in garments of failure, hiding under an umbrella of condemenation because they know they should be doing better.

But thats what grace does, it enables you to stand in his presence free from accusation and when you've done all, to stand!! Grace enables you to stand accepted in the beloved, from from shame living in the light as he is in the light. this allows the light of Glory of God in the face of Christ to shine into our hearts. And we with with unveiled faces all reflect the image of the glory of the Lord. Is this something that we did. No. But we did, we believed and came! Do you see the difference?

The work is this, set your mind on Christ jesus, set your affections on Christ, set your thoughts to the obedience of Christ, set you mind to the lamb. Believe in the robe of righteousness (Christ jesus).And if anyone thinks that this is a walk in the park, try do that in the midst of failure and disappointment when everything in you and around you is condemning you. Thats work!!!!

Might it be said that grace is "effectuated" by things like faith, obedience and repentance?

Consider a home that is wired for electricity. This is available to everyone in the house. However, there is a choice. One person can think about the wires and even know they are there, but does nothing so therefore sits in the dark. Another person takes a plug and sticks it in an outlet and voila-- power. Did the person who used the plug or flipped a switch "earn" the electricity? I say absolutely not- he just tapped into it by the prescribed methods.

TMK,

In my journey on this road the term 'disciplines of grace' has become one of the things that I mull on.

very much what you are saying here. Must run now, if the thread stays on the present course I will elaborate further.

Quote from Martyn Lloyd-Jones:

"If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ."

Repentance is not just about feeling sorry for sinful acts (you get that in other religions too, even among agnostics and atheists), it is turning to Christ - that is real repentance.

And real trust in Christ is made evident in works...

And Christ did not save us just so that we will "try better", or even "try our best". He came to live in us... we are a new creation in Him, a new man with a new nature. That's the only way humans can be free from the power of sin.

I think many if not all of us who have posted on this thread agree on this issue when it comes down to it. I think our differences lie in what part of the process of sanctification process we are emphasizing. Some of us are emphasizing the part about trusting in Christ alone, and others of us are emphasizing the part about how that is worked out practically in our daily walk. I agree that first there must be a deeply rooted trust in Christ and His finished work on the cross. That is where everything starts and apart from that there is absolutely nothing we can do to be sanctified or please the Lord. But once we have that genuine faith in Christ the question becomes, how does that faith produce good works in and through us? Or how is that faith worked out practically in our lives? And this is where more faith, repentance and obedience come into play in our practical walk.

Another thing that I think this issue also boils down to is in how we view God in our daily walk with Him. Some of us seem to emphasize more the side of His grace, His love and mercy toward us. Others of us may emphasize more His holiness and displeasure toward sin. And yet others of us (and this is where I think I find myself) see a balance in those attributes. We see that God is indeed full of grace and mercy toward us and is very patient with His children and that there is now no condemnation to us who are in Christ Jesus. But at the same time we understand that He is also infinitely holy and absolutely abhors all sin and is grieved and provoked to anger when we sin against Him and that He disciplines those He loves. And that understanding of His holiness causes us to fear and tremble at His Word even though we have full assurance of our salvation.

I came across this quote by A.W. Pink yesterday and thought it was relevant to this discussion:

"Alas, alas, God’s ‘way of salvation’ is almost entirely unknown today, the nature of Christ’s salvation is almost universally misunderstood, and the terms of His salvation misrepresented on every hand. The ‘Gospel’ which is now being proclaimed is, in nine cases out of every ten, but a perversion of the Truth, and tens of thousands, assured they are bound for heaven, are now hastening to hell as fast as time can take them…

"Unless God is pleased to grant a real revival, it will not be long ere ‘the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people’ (Isa. 60:2), for the light of the true Gospel is rapidly disappearing…Those preachers who tell sinners that they may be saved without forsaking their idols, without repenting, without surrendering to the Lordship of Christ, are as erroneous and dangerous as others who insist that salvation is by works, and that heaven must be earned by our own efforts!”

Source: http://dailyevidence.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/real-revival/

I agree with Mr Pink to about 95%. This is because I believe a sinner can come to Christ without first giving up his idols and without first surrendering to His Lordship. Think of the publican praying "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner" and the thief on the cross.

But that is where the grace of God is "activated"-- it can empower a man to give up his idols and surrender to His lordship.

Must a man surrender to the lordship of Christ? Yes- to stay saved, but not to be saved. (Ducking for cover).

Those who come to Christ before giving up their idols are simply customers at the insurance counter. They do not know the deadly character of their sin or the Son of God whom they might as well be addressing as, "Hey, bud. Come here a sec!"

I am reminded of an old high school friend, Candy Hanes. Bored to death in our Presbyterian religious instructions class, eyes glazing over terms like "imputed righteousness" and the nuances of propitiation versus expiation, she sighed her question.

"So, what is the least I can do and still go to heaven?"

People are savvy. They will buy a good deal, and insure against losses if the price is right.

All of which rests in another sphere from the man or woman beating their breast and crying out for mercy with the eternal guilt of their sin pushing them to the punishment they know they deserve. Those are the ones who will recognize a true Savior, and whose gratitude will drive them to both righteousness in their daily living and works of benevolence wherever they go.

I am not sure what you mean by "giving up their idols."

Must a drug user get clean BEFORE coming to Christ? I thought the drug user can get clean BECAUSE he comes to Christ. The same can be said of any sin which entraps people.

Besides, we all have our idols even AFTER coming to Christ, if we are 100% honest.

I agree with Mr Pink to about 95%. This is because I believe a sinner can come to Christ without first giving up his idols and without first surrendering to His Lordship. Think of the publican praying "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner" and the thief on the cross.

But that is where the grace of God is "activated"-- it can empower a man to give up his idols and surrender to His lordship.

Must a man surrender to the lordship of Christ? Yes- to stay saved, but not to be saved. (Ducking for cover).

The whole package is included in the new birth or salvation; repentance, faith, and a surrender to the Lordship of Christ.

I am not sure what you mean by "giving up their idols."

Must a drug user get clean BEFORE coming to Christ? I thought the drug user can get clean BECAUSE he comes to Christ. The same can be said of any sin which entraps people.

Besides, we all have our idols even AFTER coming to Christ, if we are 100% honest.

Since repentance is necessary for salvation the question then is, what is biblical repentance unto salvation? God’s Word reveals repentance as a brokenness of heart over one’s sinful condition before the holiness of God; it includes a confession and renouncement of our sins as we turn to Christ as our only hope. In repentance one is determined to forsake every "known sin”. But there are certain "unknown sins” of which we are not aware when we are first saved. But as far as our known sins are concerned, we are determined to completely forsake them. So for example, a meth addict, crack cocaine addict, or heroin addict will know he/she must turn from that wicked vice if they are to make peace with God. It’s in their conscience. Same thing goes for a murderer, a habitual bank robber, a gang member, etc.

I’ll give a quick example from my conversion experience. When I first came to Christ I knew I had to forsake my criminal lifestyle and gang buddies and that I had to stop trying to be a womanizer and be a one woman man. But I found out after I was saved that pre-marital sex was a sin (I’d never even heard the word fornication; I grew up in the ghetto and had very poor grammar; still have poor grammar but I think it’s improved by God’s grace :). Anyhow, I had no clue that even lust was a sin and I was convicted of that sin and realized I desperately needed God’s strength to overcome that addiction. I could probably name many other sins that I became aware of after I was saved. But initially I was determined to forsake every known sin in my life. I was broken over my sins as I realized that I had basically been spitting in God's face all those years. I realized that God had been so patient, loving and merciful toward me despite my utter rebellion against Him.

But the process of sanctification is definitely not a process whereby we can attain sinless perfection in this life. Rather it is a process whereby we are conformed to the image of Christ more and more as God continues to refine us by the power of His Spirit being at work in our hearts and lives.

I think there needs to be some line of demarcation between coming to grips with sin and believing in Jesus for salvation.

If Christ is presented too early, before the sinner is truly aware of his condition, he will see the Christian life something like a job description now that he has been hired on. A perfect set up for a works based religious experience, the dos and the don'ts, and the grind of regular moral failure.

He just thinks he is a Christian, but he has yet to meet the Savior. And that because he is yet to see his desperate sinful condition- he got the solution before he knew the problem.

He still has the problem, but there is now a pretty blanket over his head.

There are millions like this! They flock to Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, and a host of others like them looking for relief from this Christian life that just doesn't work very well!

Repent! Real, down and dirty, heart wrenching, weeping after midnight repentance that demonstrates to God that you mean business this time. Let the Savior who really saves, really save! The glory to follow is going to blow you away, but you cannot get it any other way.

Whew! Have we hijacked this thread, or what!!?

Do you clean up before you come to Christ, or do you come to Christ and He cleans you up?

I believe Luke 15:20-22 is a concrete illustration of the answer.

Since repentance is necessary for salvation the question then is, what is biblical repentance unto salvation?

1. http://bit.ly/1zHgD7V (though this definition needs to be tightened up a bit)

"Repentance is not (merely) for sinful acts as such and committing to keeping the law. This is not repentance.

Repentace is from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil to the Tree of Life which is Christ.

Repentance is from independance from God and unbelief to God to recieve from Him the abundance of Grace and the gift of rightousness."

2. http://on.fb.me/1vdKoFE

"Some preachers make it sound like we can stop desiring evil enough to be worthy to turn to Christ, not realizing that it is our *inability* to overcome controlling evil passions that creates the occasion for turning to Christ.

Let's turn to the Lord as those who need salvation from what is too great for us--and realize that *that* is repentance. Here we discover the depth of His love for us."

3. http://on.fb.me/1tgkCDU

"Looking is believing. Jesus said that He would be lifted up like Moses lifted up the brazen serpent and that all who looked would live.

Do you want to live? Then look. Do you want to be saved? Then believe.

Did Moses say this to the children of Israel who had been bit by poisonous serpents?: "Hey, do you really understand how bad this poison is? Do you really believe it will lead to your death? Make sure you feel bad enough pain before you look to this brazen serpent I’m lifting up.”

What strange advice and yet I wonder how many have come upon such advice related to their souls.

That’s sad.

When we are talking about sin, we are talking about something much more serious than a poisonous snake bite...

So look and live. The Life you experience from freely looking, this will assure your heart."

Do you clean up before you come to Christ, or do you come to Christ and He cleans you up?

I believe Luke 15:20-22 is a concrete illustration of the answer.

Interesting how the story of Prodigal son in Luke 15 clearly disagrees with you.

Repentance is not cleaning. It is turning away from sin and turning towards Jesus. There are 2 steps in it. Preachers who preach about severity of Sin do not do it so that people may cleanse themselves, they do it so that people may come to their senses regarding how Sin has ruined their lives. Just like how Prodigal Son realized that even the servants in his house had better life and food than him, only then he turned towards his father.

Imaging if someone told the father that his son is longing for Pigs food, he would not have sent even food packets nor gone to cleanse him. But only when his son hated that condition of eating pigs food and turned back towards his father's house, he came running to cleanse him.

But this article says that you do not need to turn or even walk away, you cannot do that, Jesus will come to your place and clease you. This is a lie. It may appear like great truth, but it is a pure lie and deception.

Imagine a person who visits the Doctor for frequent headache, the Doctor finds out that he has a tumor in his brain. Now the Doctor did not want to tell him the truth of his condition, but told him to keep visiting him everyday until he is completly cured. The patient will come one or two days but not everyday, because he does not understand the severity of his condition. Once a painkiller reduces his headache he will consider himself normal and stop visiting the Doctor. This is how all the Grace alone preacher who do not speak about severity of Sin and not emphasis repentance are. They are only creating people who will never turely need Jesus, because they are not told the severity of their condition.

Apostle Paul cries out in Romans 7 how much he hates doing evil, still he is not able to completely stop doing it. But when he cries out to God, he sees Grace to overcome. Only those who hate what they do will be delivered, not those who are told they are incapable of hating.

But this article says that you do not need to turn or even walk away, you cannot do that, Jesus will come to your place and cleanse you. This is a lie. It may appear like great truth, but it is a pure lie and deception.

And I agree with you that "repentance is not cleaning. It is turning away from sin and turning towards Jesus", as well as the necessity for non-believers to be "told the severity of their condition" for the gospel message to make sense.

Back to Luke's parable - the prodigal son decided to return home (turned to his father, looked to him - so speak). His father saw him from afar and raced to embrace him, cleaned him up and put on him his best robe (clothed him with the new man, with a new nature and a new heart). That's a great illustration from God of repentance and sanctification.

I'm not sure which article you're referring to - I trust that it is not the book of Luke! As for the other articles which I shared, none of them make those claims either.

I was refering to the article by Gary Wilkerson.

Grace is only grace to a believer when he knows he doesn't deserve it. Otherwise it does just remain an theological concept, a insurance policy against accident.

RE: ///I had no clue that even lust was a sin and I was convicted of that sin and realized I desperately needed God’s strength to overcome that addiction. ///

Yes, That is it.
It took the Grace of God for you to overcome that addiction.
It was not your will power that overcame but Grace that empowered you to overcome. (So God gets all the Glory)
That is the point that Brother yuehan was making.

Repentance is a gift from God not an offering that we give to God.

The area of concern with the artical might not be so much with the content in and of its self. But rather with an unbalanced propagation of the message.
The artical that I only read over quickly and did not study deeply seemed on the surface atleast, to be consistant with what many (If not most) Preachers on SI including what David Wilkerson taught as is "the key to understanding righteousness."
But D. Wilkerson, Spurgeon, Cymbala etc. properly balance the message with messages that properly plow up the fallow ground, so that the seeds are more likely to fall on proper soil.

"the key to understanding righteousness." by David Wilkerson https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4531&commentView=itemComments

Spurgeon on the preaching of repentance:

"Let every man understand that he will never have remission of sin while he is in love with sin; and that if he abides in sin he cannot obtain the pardon of sin. There must be a hatred of sin, a loathing of it, and a turning from it, or it is not blotted out. We are to preach repentance as a duty . "The times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commands all men everywhere to repent." "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." He that has sinned is bound to repent of having sinned: it is the least that he can do. How can any man ask God for mercy while he abides in his sin?

We are to preach the acceptableness of repentance. In itself considered there is nothing in repentance deserving of the favor of God; but, the Lord Jesus Christ having come, we read, "He that confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall find mercy." God accepts repentance for the sake of His dear Son. He smiles upon the penitent sinner, and puts away his iniquities. This we are to make known on all sides.

We are also to preach the motives of repentance ”” that men may not repent from mere fear of Hell, but they must repent of sin itself. Every thief is sorry when he has to go to prison: every murderer is sorry when the noose is about his neck: the sinner must repent, not because of the punishment of sin, but because his sin is sin against a pardoning God, sin against a bleeding Savior, sin against a holy Law, sin against a tender gospel. The true penitent repents of sin against God, and he would do so even if there were no punishment. When he is forgiven, he repents of sin more than ever; for he sees more clearly than ever the wickedness of offending so gracious a God.

We are to preach repentance in its perpetuity.
Repentance is not a grace which is only to be exercised by us for a week or so at the beginning of our Christian career: it is to attend us all the way to Heaven. Faith and repentance are to be inseparable companions throughout our pilgrimage to glory. Repenting of our sin, and trusting in the great Sinbearer, is to be the tenor of our lives; and we are to preach to men that it must be so.

We are to tell them of the source of repentance, namely, that the Lord Jesus Christ is exalted on high to give repentance and remission of sins. Repentance is a plant that never grows on nature’s dunghill: the nature must be changed, and repentance must be implanted by the Holy Spirit, or it will never flourish in our hearts. We preach repentance as a fruit of the Spirit, or else we greatly err."

--------------------------------------- quote. -------------------
We are to preach repentance in its perpetuity.
Repentance is not a grace which is only to be exercised by us for a week or so at the beginning of our Christian career: it is to attend us all the way to Heaven. Faith and repentance are to be inseparable companions throughout our pilgrimage to glory. Repenting of our sin, and trusting in the great Sinbearer, is to be the tenor of our lives; and we are to preach to men that it must be so.
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Amen, and thank you Oracio!

Repentance is a character quality, I like that phrase that "faith and repentance are to be inseparable companions..."

Men of faith are repentant, aware of the lingering chains on their bodies of flesh, holding the promise of glory not yet apprehended. In short, they are willing to be confronted by both man and God, and to react with a humble spirit to trade in the marketplace of forgiveness and honor.

They are lovers of truth, and eager to root out from within themselves any traces of a wicked way.

I will try to show you how God brings sinners to repentance, for that will help you who are now seeking it. How, then, does the Lord lead men to repentance? According to this chapter, the first thing He does is, to change their nature””"I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.” This is regeneration””the change of nature. The heart of unimpressionable stone, naturally hard, is removed and a sensitive, impressionable heart is given””a fleshy heart, so that the man can feel. If you really want to repent, this is the message I have to deliver to you, "You must be born-again.” If I wish to grow olives, I must have an olive tree. "Can the fig tree bear olives?” "Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?” The thorn must be turned into a grapevine, and the thistle into a fig tree, if we are to get from them grapes and figs.