Whatever happened to the Power of GOD?

With this topic I am referencing the outward manifestations that Jesus talked about.

John 14
12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Mark 16
17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Jesus raised the dead. He healed people and he cast demons out. Paul was even bitten by a snake and it didn't kill him. If someone claims to be a soldout hardcore Christian should they not be doing these same things? What happened to this power?

Obviously those powers were for a limited time period only.
It was meant to authenticate the new revelation that was then in the process of being transcribed. But its also true in a sense we are doing greater work than our Lord ever did . In that we are bringing thru His grace many more people to God than He ever did in His time on earth.

The power of God is among us to save just as always. We are endued with power from on high to be witnesses unto Christ, Jesus said that all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."; then He said, "Lo, I am with you always."

May I suggest that the "greater works" are demonstrated in the multitude of souls that have been saved from every tongue, tribe, and nation since the times of the apostles. This is the power of Christ in us and it is far greater than outward works.

That's not to say that there are no more miracles, there are many accounts of God's miraculous intervention, abroad and at home. As an example, I would encourage you to join the TSC Tuesday night prayer meeting online and see for yourself the testimonies of miraculous answers to prayer.

In Christ,

I can personally testify to two healings that occurred in our local church. Both of cancerous tumors, instantly gone. A sister was prayed for, healed, after MRI revealed a large tumor in her stomach. Within days, a second MRI revealed no tumor, no symptoms were experoenced again. The doctor said, "Are you a praying woman?" "Yes," she said. He told her she was healed.

A young 19 year old man had a brain tumor. Prayed for in a prayer service, healed, testified to healing. Next dr appt was examined, new scan done, tumor gone.

God still does miracles.

John, I've been asking the same question.

It's a very valid question - one I'm still looking for the answer to.

KPYee, there's nothing obvious in the Bible saying these things were for a limited time. Jesus had compassion on the sick and healed them. Does God/Jesus not have compassion anymore, or very rarely? Jesus when walking the earth was the express image of God, He was showing us the Father. Did God cease to be God?

Ron, your explanation of the "greater works" is a pretty typical response to this verse. To be honest it seems more like a dismissal and explaining away Jesus' words than really dealing with the enormity of what He said. Jesus never said we would do a different kind of works. So we have to look at the kind of works He did and expect to see them "greater."

To everyone that has posted so far I know it's hard to convey tone in writing so I don't mean to offend anyone or come off as harsh! I just think this is a very important topic that is almost ignored by the majority of the church. On the other hand there is a segment of the church that I think abuses and makes a mockery of these things. I think what is needed is a real demonstration of the power of God - without all the craziness.

Truly, truly, I can say that Jesus is still in the healing and the greater works business and that these signs do follow those who are His!

I used to complain because Christians and churches wasn't doing this (none that I knew of) and the Lord made it known unto me that He endued "me" with power from on high (the same as He has done for "every believer") if only we would walk in it. But too many today feel that miracles were only to establish the church.

This isn't the "only" reason (there are more) but let me share what I believe has happened to these gifts... where there is compassion, there is healings and greater works. Almost every time Christ healed someone, it states that He had "compassion" on them. Look it up for yourself.

Healing, deliverance and compassion go hand-in-hand.

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?””unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Brothers and sisters, step out in faith and only believe, lay your hands on the sick, even your own family!! God is good!

God bless,
Lisa

PS: Please don't just lay lay hands on believers, but lay hands on and pray for the lost. It's the goodness of God that leads them to repentance!!! Be obedient and allow God to be good to them! :)

Andrew .. You are not in any way being offensive or harsh.
Let me make clear . The powers manifested by the Apostles and Christ are no longer bestowed on mankind .The very fact that you are asking the same question is proof that such great powers no longer prevail. If its prevalent will we be asking about this ? But healing continue through prayers today . But they are clearly not of the same certitude, quality and magnitude as that performed by the Apostles and Jesus Christ. The compassion of God isnt impugned by his refusal to give us healing each time we request . As He said to Paul in response to Paul's request for the thorns in his flesh to be removed . "My grace is sufficient for thee . My strength is made perfect in weakness.".. In a world of sins God's compassion is demonstrated most clearly by allowing sufferings to take hold on men. Our afflictions will then lead us to God and to say with Paul" Most gladly will I glory in my infirmities that the power Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities in reproaches in necessities in persecutions in distresses for Christ sake. For when I am weak then am I strong "

Its a good question really.
i think it comes down to perspective aswel, if you dont believe that the gifts are for today in some measure, then why expect to see them?
I do believe God still Moves in Power & wants to do more but we need to be hungry & thirsty for HIM for His Presence For Him to have ALL the Glory.
there is a guy in Australia John Mellor he moves in a healing Gift. the pastor where i got to had cancer & was on his deathbed 7 years ago & God totally healed him.

ive seen people delivered from demonic spirits.

"One of these days some simple soul will pick up the Book of God, read it, and believe it. Then the rest of us will be embarrassed" --Leonard Ravenhill

Jesus raised the dead. He healed people and he cast demons out. Paul was even bitten by a snake and it didn't kill him. If someone claims to be a soldout hardcore Christian should they not be doing these same things? What happened to this power?

When Jesus was on earth he was doing all miracles himself but today it is the Church which is the Body of Christ. Hence all these ministries of healing, casting out demons etc will be part of a true Church which is building our Lord's body. All these gifts will not be in one person but they will be dispersed among different members of Church. I myself have 2 such gifts, so to say that I do not have one will make me a liar.

A true Church will not advertise these miracles just like how Jesus did not want those who got healed not to tell anyone. Hence most of these self advertising miracles that you see in TV are fake. It will not be one person who will have all gifts and will travel around the world milking money as demostrated by modern day teleevangelists. These gifts will be given to those whom God wants to be committed to a body of Christ and to play that particular role in that body. All the gifts are for building Church not for self glorification.

In my own Church we have witnessed all the gifts but only thing is we do not advertise just like how Jesus did them in secret.

The powers manifested by the Apostles and Christ are no longer bestowed on mankind .The very fact that you are asking the same question is proof that such great powers no longer prevail. If its prevalent will we be asking about this ?

See this is the problem. If we start creating or believing in theology based on personal experience then we will endup with useless faith.
Matthew 13:58 says- And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

If the people of Nazareth were asking the same question, 'where is the power of Jesus that we heard?', if a guy like you who believes in personal experience, will answer,'The power of Jesus is no longer bestowed on mankind .The very fact that you are asking the same question is proof that such great powers no longer prevail.' Do you atleast now see the stupidity in your argument?

Many in Nazareth would have believed in you as it sounds very logical. But the turth is there was lack of faith which resulted in lack of demostration of Power.

I give great importance to personal experience, but it should never be against scripture. If scripture says in a Church God has appointed, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues (1 Cor 12:28). We better believe and seek these things in Lord's body which is Church. All these gifts are still valid and will be visible where God is building his Church and people are committed to work with the Lord.

KP Yuhanan ministry involves building Churches in remote villages in North India where all are uneducated. There is noway one can logically defend Gospel and convert them. It is only via Signs and wonders these people will believe that Jesus is true. Many such wonders have been performed to build Churches in these remote villages.

The claim that the miraculous powers of the magnitude and quality as performed by Christ and the apostles no longer subsist is based on scriptures not on experience. My statement that "The very fact that you are asking the same question is proof that such great powers no longer prevail. If its prevalent will we be asking about this ?" was mainly to point out that even on an experiential level there is simply no corroboration for the claim that the miraculous feats of the magnitude and quality of the apostles subsist.
The miraculous healing we see today are more of the category of James 5:13-16.

I dont want to get into a tedious theological debate over here . However if any of you are keen to pursue this matter further I would suggest you go to this site and listen to this issue debated a few times there :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

Jesus raised the dead. He healed people and he cast demons out. Paul was even bitten by a snake and it didn't kill him. If someone claims to be a soldout hardcore Christian should they not be doing these same things? What happened to this power?

You might want to check out John Sung - an influential Chinese evangelist (1901-1944), with signs and wonders following his ministry.

1. http://amzn.to/1EkUgnN - a biography written by Leslie Lyall, which gives an overview of his life

2. http://amzn.to/1GsDsgH - a compilation of excerpts from John Sung's diaries

I found his diaries valuable in illuminating certain truths of the New Testament, including the role of faith (Matt 13:58). I would recommend reading the biography first before embarking on his diaries.

The claim that the miraculous powers of the magnitude and quality as performed by Christ and the apostles no longer subsist is based on scriptures not on experience.

even raise dead , david hogan seems to up there with wiggels worth john g lake,...

dr michael brown had david hogan preach a serious of message call raised from the dead ,phenominal testamony of apastolic power brown obviously recieved hogan as agreat man of god tho some reject hogan as a hoax

watch here hope i dont get in trouble here by greg ,being that dr brown excepts hogan ,it might be worth watching this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dUFAikPXLg

Andrew wrote:

"I just think this is a very important topic that is almost ignored by the majority of the church. On the other hand there is a segment of the church that I think abuses and makes a mockery of these things. I think what is needed is a real demonstration of the power of God - without all the craziness."

Very true on both points. How many of us actually EXPECT something miraculous to happen, even if we believe that miracles still happen? I think we are very lazy when it comes to expecting great things from God, either because we are in a church that does not believe God still does great things, or because we ourselves simply don't really believe.

The other thing we sometimes overlook and though it may seem like it, the Bible is not chock full of miracles. The are scattered over hundreds of years, and centered on the ministry of certain individuals (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, some of the apostles). Jesus ministered for around 3 years but the Bible documents only 30 days or so. Onlyh a few of the apostles worked a wonder.

I am not saying this to downplay the miraculous because I do believe that God still works in a BIG way. But sometimes we think there is a miracle around every corner in scripture and there really isn't.

Maybe that's because there weren't as many believers then as there are now, so let's get cracking :)

Hi Yuehan ..Please go to the website I pointed out and listen to the debates on this issue . Here is the link again :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

2) John Sung healing cant be equated with of Christ and the Apostles . His healing was contingent on confession and full repentance of sins . It falls more in the category of James 5:13-18

3) I am not a strict cessationist.I believe healing under the protocol of James 5: 13-18 continue to subsist . But they are not equivalent to that of the Apostles & Christ

One thing I think that may need to happen in this post as well is something I have been trying to practice more and more and that is using the scripture to answer my points when I can in order to stay parallel to scripture. I would think scripture would answer this question yet even that interpretation can vary. Sometimes I wonder if scripture in combination of 'authentic' experience should prove each other to be true.

I really do think this is an important thing because nowadays people don't even see Christians as they should be and I often wonder if that is a reason why the Power of God seems to be muted in America in a general sense. Outside of preaching and the religious scam artists is society seeing any genuiness of God amongst Christians?

one other thought........... I have always wondered if the power of God has ever done something in any praise and worship concert to any soul other then simply instilling joy in the soul. I have often wondered why more revivals would not break out in hearts with those who go to praise and worship concert. After all, it is designed to be solely focused on God. This could also be added this conversation. I also realize we need to be aware that false signs and wonders exist and an evil generation wants to seek after those things as well. A natural earthly trap of the sinful soul.

Ron, your explanation of the "greater works" is a pretty typical response to this verse. To be honest it seems more like a dismissal and explaining away Jesus' words than really dealing with the enormity of what He said. Jesus never said we would do a different kind of works. So we have to look at the kind of works He did and expect to see them "greater."

Hello amranger, it is the typical response for a good reason, it is not an explaining away but rather an acknowledgement of the great power of God to draw men to Christ through weak earthen vessels and to transform them into His image.

How could "greater works" possibly refer to miracles, how could a greater miracle than raising a man from 4 days in the grave be performed? Did the Apostles do greater miraculous works than that? No. So we either have to call Christ a liar or understand His words here to mean something more than just miraculous outward works.

In Christ,

KPYee: Hi Yuehan ..Please go to the website I pointed out and listen to the debates on this issue . Here is the link again :http://www.bibledebates.info/DebatesAudio/indexAudioDebates.htm

2) John Sung healing cant be equated with of Christ and the Apostles . His healing was contingent on confession and full repentance of sins . It falls more in the category of James 5:13-18

3) I am not a strict cessationist.I believe healing under the protocol of James 5: 13-18 continue to subsist . But they are not equivalent to that of the Apostles & Christ

It's a mischaracterization to claim that God's workings today "cannot be equated with that of Christ and the Apostles". The Bible never draws such a dichotomy, for:

(i) we share the same Holy Spirit as Christ and the apostles, and God gives His Spirit without measure (John 3:34)

(ii) it is ultimately Jesus Christ who lives in us and works through us!

Jesus raised the dead. He healed people and he cast demons out. Paul was even bitten by a snake and it didn't kill him. If someone claims to be a soldout hardcore Christian should they not be doing these same things? What happened to this power?

I won't get into the whole cessation debate again here. God bless us each and every one on that is all I can say.

"Should" and "what happened" are the questions asked. I don't know how to answer "should". Seems to me that, if nothing else, Christians do not live truly apostolic lives. If we do not live in the NT Way of Jesus, "should" we expect NT fruits and gifts?

"What happened". The power of God is still present. He is still at work in the world. He is still doing all things well. I think "what happened" ought to be re-asked this way: "how shall we now live". And, I think that's largely what SI is devoted to setting before us, and I'm thankful for it.

Pursue God and pursue those He wants to save with all earnestness. I think your question will be answered over and again to your pleasant and awe-inspired surprise.

Loved your answer, Sree...
_____________________________________________________________
A true Church will not advertise these miracles just like how Jesus did not want those who got healed not to tell anyone. Hence most of these self advertising miracles that you see in TV are fake. It will not be one person who will have all gifts and will travel around the world milking money as demostrated by modern day teleevangelists. These gifts will be given to those whom God wants to be committed to a body of Christ and to play that particular role in that body. All the gifts are for building Church not for self glorification.
______________________________________________________________

Back to the OP question, "what happened to the power of God"? I have asked this question many times, as well.

My conclusion is that too many folks are caught in the a self-sufficient mode - check out Judges 7:2: "The LORD said to Gideon, "The people who are with you are too many for Me to give Midian into their hands, for Israel would become boastful, saying, ‘My own power has delivered me." People have become too wealthy which breeds independence,self-sufficiency and pride. Medical help was affordable and so whenever you feel under the weather off to the doctor you go. He will prescribe you some pills and maybe give you an injection on your rear and you are good to go - in a few days. Don't need God's intervention to heal.

Without going into any detail, I have learned that God has created the body to heal itself and the injection of meds either orally or by shot has limited value. By casting the care of your health upon Him he will care for you, heal you. Some will call for anointing with oil, but not all. And I suspect that it is the failure of man's obedience to this directive is why the church languishes in lukewarmness, apathy and apostasy. If the elders in the church gain a reputation of being men whom God will use to heal, imagine what impact this will have on a brotherhood and community!

(I have also seen where God will not heal a person, but will use this illness to prepare the family for his removal of this person from earthly life. I do not see in the WORD any support for the doctrine that believing on the LORD will immunize one against sickness and death.)

I also suspect that if modern medicine, health care continues to deteriorate at the pace it has in the recent past, people will shun it and turn to the LORD for help. If this is the case we may yet see a revival...

My understanding...

I love what Leonard Ravenhill said,

"The greatest miracle that God can do today is to take an unholy man out of an unholy world and make him holy, then put him back into that unholy world and keep him holy in it.”

I am in agreement with InTheLight(brother Ron) and KPYee on this.

Over the years I've been on different sides of this issue of miracles, from cessationist, to Pentecostal, to Calvary Chapel. One good thing I learned from being part of a Calvary Chapel for several years is that we are not to follow after miracles but allow miracles to follow us as the Lord sees fit in His sovereign will. I have seen this played out from time to time in my walk, so I do not deny the possibility of miracles for today.

But too many are taken up and obsessed with the miraculous and it is unhealthy.

Many Christians believe that miracles are not seen regularly today because of a lack of faith or prayer or a lack of consecration. But my question is, why don't those same believers see miracles on a regular basis in their own walk? If it is true that faith, prayer, and a consecrated life are the key here, there should be a whole lot of Christians seeing such miracles regularly in their own walk with the Lord, because there are so many good brethren of the Pentecostal viewpoint who are consecrated, pray, and have faith. So by that line of reasoning, if said brethren are not experiencing the miraculous daily in their own walk, there needs to be a whole lot of repenting going on on their part. Again, if you believe such miracles are to be seen on a daily basis as with Christ and the apostles, then there's no reason why you yourself shouldn't be walking in them unless you are backslidden or something, right?

Again, the greatest miracle is the new birth. That's what was focused on in all the true revivals of the past and God was in it. Why? Because He came to seek and to save the lost. The main thing has to be the preaching of Christ crucified and risen to save sinners. We should be on fire to desire to see souls saved from eternal damnation, because that's what God's heart beats after the most. There is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

I think there really is a problem in our thinking when we downplay what God is currently doing around the world in seeking and saving sinners by the power of His Spirit through the preaching of the gospel. Yes, we desperately need revival today. But let's not despise the day of "small things", and let's focus on the main thing.

Oracio: Again, the greatest miracle is the new birth

But this greatest miracle - the new birth - is fully wrought by God, and thus cannot be the "greater works" which Jesus speaks that His disciples will do in John 14:12. So DEADn's question is a legitimate one.

Good word O.

There is a lesson in Jesus temptation that's relevant to the issue here. In his temptation of Jesus Satan tried to lure Him to prove His divinity by a feat of marvel. Jesus rebuffed him . His rebuff sent a clear message to us. That he will prove He was divine not by executing a marvelous feat but by resisting the devil's temptation. And that's exactly how He did it . And how we should do it as well. Its by resisting the temptation of the devil that we establish our Lord's legitimacy to Lordship over all heavens and earth.
Its by daily living an upright holy righteous live in a spirit of meekness and graciousness in the midst of a world abounding with sins that we truly glorify Him. No act of marvelous healing can come close to rival that .

Amen brother Oracio! As I grow in my walk with the Lord, I come to realize more and more the difference between a spiritual faith and a carnal faith, the former trusting and being assured in a God who is unseen and the latter trusting in what can be understood and discerned by our natural faculties (miracles included), the former making much of Christ Himself, the latter focused merely on what Christ can do for them. I recently wrote a journal entry about this on my personal blog after the Lord showed me something as I as reading through the Pentateuch which I thought might be helpful in adding to this discussion :)

-----

I am Blessed

It has been a long time since I took up reading the bible from cover to cover, but I finally got myself to start the wonderful journey all over again about a month ago and it has been such an awesome experience. I just finished the Pentateuch and there were so many new things I saw/learned that I didn’t see/realize before. And as I was reflecting this morning (in the shower, while also singing "Lord, Let Your Glory Fall” by Matt Redman; the song just popped into my head, haha), I began to be reminded of all the great and awesome supernatural things that God did for the people of Israel; parting of the Red Sea, Manna from heaven, the mountain covered with fire as the Lord audibly spoke out to the people at Sinai, and when the tabernacle was literally filled with the glory of the Lord so much so that the priests could not even go in.

These indeed were tremendous, supernatural demonstrations of God’s holiness and power, things that would command fear and trembling and awe and wonder in the hearts of all those who would behold it. And then I thought about the song that popped into my head "Lord, let Your glory fall, as on that ancient day…our hearts will sing that song, God let Your glory come” which then led me to think about the times we are living in today. I found myself wondering, "wow it would be so cool to see things like that today, God how wonderful it would be if we could see all that.” And right as I was thinking this, another thought/realization stopped it right in its tracks, "God…became…a man.” It literally blew my mind and I had to pause…the God who created the universe, the heavens and the earth, CHOSE to be born as a peasant in a filthy manger, lived a relatively unremarkable 30 years leading up to just 3 years of ministry, suffered at the hands of His own people and was utterly humiliated, beaten, mocked, spit on, scourged, and ultimately crucified (HE CHOSE THIS!!!), who then rose again on the third day, not only conquering sin and death, but also RECONCILING THE SEEMINGLY IRRECONCILABLE, THE JUSTICE AND MERCY OF A HOLY AND GOOD GOD, and then even gave us His own Holy Spirit to actually dwell in us, that GOD WOULD DWELL IN US, and that God would forever bear the marks of His love and that day as a man with scars on His hands and feet for all eternity…

And then I realized, it became so clear…HIS GLORY HAD ALREADY COME. What God did on that day 2000 years ago through His Son Jesus Christ, FAR EXCEEDS anything else that can be deemed supernatural and miraculous: creation, the parting of the Red Sea, Manna, God speaking from the fiery mountain, the filling of the tabernacle with His glory all pale in comparison, are not even close or on the same playing field as what was done on that day! Sure the miracles and supernatural works in the Pentateuch were awesome and even fearsome, but even these at the end of the day were not able to prevent the people from rebelling against the Lord or to enlighten their eyes of faith so that they would really trust in the Lord with all their hearts and cling to Him, whereas through Christ and through the Holy Spirit, though we do not see Him or hear Him as they (Israelites) did, THE EYES OF OUR FAITH HAVE BEEN ILLUMINED, OUR SPIRIT REGENERATED, AND WE HAVE BEEN MADE TO TRUST HIM AND CLING TO HIM ALONE. By this time, I realized how small Christ and the cross had been in my own thinking. I wasn’t overcome and enamored with Christ and the cross. I was more struck with awe and wonder with miracles that had no power to change hearts or produce saving faith. And it was here that I was reminded of what Jesus said, "blessed are those who have not seen and yet still believe.”

God and His ways are so opposite to ours and the world. We value what we see and hear and touch (even miracles at the end of the day are discerned through our natural faculties). But the Lord values that which is done through faith, where although not seeing and hearing and feeling (many times seemingly boring and unremarkable and unmiraculous), we take Him at His Word and trust in Him and seek Him rather than a sign or wonder or a person or a ministry. It’s easy to love miracles and get excited over them because you don’t necessarily need a regenerated heart to do so, but to actually be excited and enamored by Christ and the cross comes through faith and faith alone. This is the difference between a carnal faith and a spiritual faith, where the former requires constant stimulation of the flesh while the latter says though my flesh fall to the ground, I will still follow, though I be poured out as a drink offering and everything be taken from me, I can still rejoice and declare with all certainty, "I am blessed.”

Art shares an interesting demonstration of the power of God during a period on ministry near Ben Israel late in his ministry. Starting with about 16 minutes from the end. I think this adds an important dimension to the understanding of demonstrations of God's power.

JAP-02 The Confronting Word by Art Katz

Topic: Japanese\t
Description: nil

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=13963&commentView=itemComments

This file is titled "Confronting Pagan Cultures" in your music player.