Hal Lindsey's on wife #4

Hal Lindsey is currently married to his fourth wife, having divorced his previous three. On the back cover of the sixth printing of his 1974 book, There's a New World Coming, is a picture of Lindsey with his second wife, Jan. (Jan is the mother of Hal's three grown daughters.) He also dedicates the book to "my best pal, my wife Jan ..." However, "best pal" Jan is gone from the back cover of the book's 1984 "updated" edition, as is the dedication to her. A later Lindsey' book, Planet Earth--2000 A.D. (18 million in circulation as of 1/95), carries a picture of Hal and his third wife, Kim, who is approximately 25 years his junior. (Kim is the sister of author Johanna Michaelsen, and the sister-in-law of Tetelestai Center's Associate Pastor, Randy Michaelsen.) After dumping Kim, Hal is now married to wife #4, JoLyn, a member of Tetelestai and in a Bible class taught by Lindsey when she was evidently "discovered" by Hal.

His personal life and details about his marriages are all kept hidden behind the curtain, except for the names of his wives, which can be gauged from his book cover. He is now in the course of his fourth marriage with Jolyn Lindsey. The reason for the separation, the separation settlement, the custody of the kids and the relationship between him and his wives after separation are unknown. Even the year of marriages and the time of separation are not indicated. One can only assume the time based on the book covers of his recent works.

He never spoke about his separation or marital life in his books too. His book cover usually will have his current partner’s picture and a phrase that dedicates the book to her. Though his prediction, his lifestyle and also his preaching method are criticized by many, he has a lot of fans around the world who never see his three failed marital life or his failed predictions as a problem. His followers consider that the separation is not a very big sin and God would forgive men for it. However, his critics lament that he has no value for the sanctity of the marital life and there are also comments that he would soon be separated from Jolyn, for another woman.

Usually, the personal life of the personalities who meant to keep it private is usually filled with rumors and fake stories but there are no reports of such rumors or stories that revolve around Hal. His fans are his net worth is about 42 million dollars. There are no reports about the amount of alimony he owes to his three wives and the separation settlement.

Hi
i hope this isnt another pre trib rant!,
Yours staff

"Christians don’t steal or lie, they don’t get divorced or have abortions.” ”“ John Hagee

John Hagee had an adulterous affair and divorced his wife to unbiblically remarry a much younger woman from his own former congregation.

John Hagee has a $2.1 million dollar 7,969 acre ranch with not one, but FIVE lodges, a managers house, a gun locker, a smoke house, a skeet range and three barns. They also have a 5,275 foot, 6 bedroom mansion in one of San Antonio’s most exclusive gated communities (The Dominion).

John Hagee was the leader of the charismatic Trinity Church in 1975 and was the father of two children. John Hagee had an adulterous affair with a woman and admitted to immorality in front of his church. Pastor John Hagee then divorced the mother of his two children and married a younger woman (Diana Castro, now Diana Hagee) from that same congregation. Pastor John Hagee willfully abused his position of trust and power to take advantage of a younger gullible woman and cheat on his wife.

Did he repent and pursue living a life based on Biblical principles?

John Hagee married the woman he cheated on his wife with and immediately became the pastor of another congregation- the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio Texas.

John Hagee has his congregation members raise their money towards the sky and repeat after him "Give and it shall be given.” He then instructs his audience that "When you give, it qualifies you to receive God’s abundance. If God gives to you before you give to him, God himself will becom a liar… If you’re not prospering it’s because you’re not GIVING!”

Lord, have mercy!

It can only happen when so-called Christians tolerate it. And they do - they will even finance it! Can I say it? Ok, I will: STUPID.

Seems to me the popular church is more wicked then the world because while they profess to follow God they also follow the devil. Worldlings do not profess to follow God.

Mr. Bill looked at a woman in Kroger's this morning with lust in his heart, God forgive me! I'm a sinner, put me in the corner with Hal and Hagee.

Yes Sandra, your comments are right.

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
(Titus 1:16)

Staff, I don't think this is about a particular doctrinal position. False teachers can hold to a form of truth, but their lives reveal them to be false and probably only in it for filthy lucre (considering how much he is reportedly worth). He is making a fortune from selling books that appeal to the sensational appetite.

Hi Heydave,
I think reading the original post it is,Maybe Savannah can put it straight
Yours Staff

This is an issue that is deeper then simple lust, if you want to call it that. This is an issue of people working to deceive, who are using the spectacular to rope in people.It is a plan, premeditated act - not something that happened in a moment of weakness - opps! I sinned.

I am utterly shocked to read that Johanna Michaelsen was Hal Lindsey's sister-in-law. She wrote the book, "The Beautiful Side of Evil". Ever read it? I did. She writes how demon possessed folks can perform miracles. Lindsey authored the book, "Satan is Alive and Well on Planet Earth", similar to Johanna's book, if I recall. And all the while he was an adulterer...

No sir, brethren...if a skilled writer proclaims to be speaking for God but is living a carnal, unrepentant life of immorality, I will not give him the time of day. Scripture plainly tells us we should have no fellowship with people who claim to be Believers but are living in open sin:

I Cor.5:9:NASB

9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler””not even to eat with such a one.

12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

(Since I learned Lindsey was living in open sin I trashed all his books.)

EDIT: I should add that because Lindsey and Johanna were connected by marriage does not automatically make Johanna bad...I suspect many of us have prodigals hanging from our family tree that vex us. But if I read correctly it appears they were collaborators.

Are we not all literally living in sin, no matter who we are or what we’re doing? (Romans 3:23) James 2:10 (my translation) says:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

"If you’ve committed one sin, it’s like you’ve committed them all.”

I think a lot of people and pastors fail, is because the days of accountability are gone. The folks that don't have someone to be accountable to, will all fail eventually.

When we set in the Churches clapping at everything a pastor says, rather it's truth or not, it's gives them an open door to the next level of lies.

Because "WE" as the church don't go find the Pastor after church and say, pastor you said something that I believe is not truth, can you please provide me some scripture to go home and study on what you said. I understand pride has entered the church, and I believe it's here to stay, and "WE" as the church are somewhat responsible.

When we fail to set boundaries and hold people accountable, we feel used and mistreated. This is why we sometimes attack who they are, which is far more hurtful than addressing a behavior or a choice.

Amen Ginnyrose!

Preachers like Hagee and Lindsey are a complete disgrace to Christ. Those who close their eyes to their sins and defend them are themselves clearly carnal Christians. Sins like adultery are not of the same category as an occasional angry outburst which is lapse of weakness inherent in human nature that afflicts even sanctified Christians. Adultery is a deliberate sin. It can only come about by allowing lust to germinate in the heart for substantial period of time . There is no forgiveness for deliberate sins in the Bible that are not fully repented of with complete restitution. Those who indulge in such sins run the risks of becoming totally impervious to the grace of God if they are not yet already beyond redemption. Frankly I will never want to be in the position of these reprobates when I face Christ.

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” That’s true. He is telling you that there’s no more sacrifice for sins; now, he is not saying that you will not be forgiven, but he’s telling you that’s there’s no more sacrifice for sins.

There is fine line between being judgmental and to have wisdom (discernment) to not associate with false brothern.
No one wants to judge these false preachers as hell goers. But their sins cannot be compared with a true believers falling for lust. There is a difference between cat falling into dirty water and a pig taking bath in dirty water. Cat quickly cleans up and purifies itself. But pigs love dirt. A person who shows no sign of repentance is a pig not cat. So they are toally unconverted. Jesus clearly said a man who divorces a women and lives with another is living a life of adultery. This is like pig living in gutter.

God has to give up on someone to be able to commit adultery with his fellow Church women. I believe before these things happened to such men there would have been cases of lustful eyes which were never fixed through repentance. I am assuming these men were once saved. If not they never had any conviction of sin.

We need wisdom or discernment to stay away from such false teacher. Apostle John says he touched and felt life in Jesus. If we choose someone as a teacher make sure they have a transperent life like Jesus had ("Come and see"). Preachers or pastors who have this ministry that says only come and listen but not see are false. It is better to not hear them.

... but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?” John 21.23b

...But we urge you, brothers (and sisters), to do this more and more, and to aspire TO LIVE QUIETLY, AND TO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, That you may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that you may have lack of nothing. 1 Thess 4:10-12

Micah 6:8 says that "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but TO DO JUSTICE, and TO LOVE KINDNESS, and TO WALK HUMBLY WITH YOUR GOD?”

/////

I have deferred to Greg's wisdom on the matter and removed everything but the Scripture references.

The pride in this thread absolutely stinks.

Just curious, have you not judged some people here proud, when they actually show discernment based on YOUR UNDERSTANDING of Bible?
By judging certain posters here you have contradicted your own argument against judgmentalism.

So what these people aren't living according to your understanding of the Bible??

What if certain people are posting things that are judgmental according to your understanding of Bible? Why do you care to judge them as proud?

Again, I know you will quick to start a fight (based on historical posting habits), but just finding your post very much contradicting. Thats all. It is good to have a polite language here rather than using a street fight language.

Forgive me if I have hurt your logics.

1 Cor 5- It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

Apostle Paul did not answer the person who reported that there is Immorality in the Church saying "why dont you mind your business?". Instead he is rebuking those who kept quiet by saying they are arrogant. May be Apostle's Paul's is proud here?

Paul further says, "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler””not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?"

There is a difference between Christain judging an unbeliever and a Christian discerning a brother as false because his life is filled with Adultery. Paul knew the difference. Jesus did not judge the women who was unconverted and lived with 5 husbands. She was of the world. Jesus showed her the way to life. But what about those who proclaim to know the way to life by standing in Pulpit but still live like the uncoverted Samaritan women?

Divorce is a very sensitive topic. I have an understanding which is very biblical, if I express my understanding using clear scripture there will be many who will get offended here. It is good to deal each case of Divorce separately, case by case with mature thinking. We cannot generalize all.

But someone falling in Adultery continuosly while being a professing Christian Preacher, still willing to divorce his spouse to marry the other women is different. Do you think Apostle Paul will be happy to sit and eat with such a person? Will he tell mind your business to other fellow brothers who have discernment?

Dear Lisa,

This issue of not judging or judging righteously is often a point of contention in itself. Some thinking we should not make any sort of judgment at all and others who see there is a place for calling sin, sin and judging those who claim to profess Christ, but continue in a lifestyle of sin as false.

Can I point out to you that you have just passed judgement on those you think are in pride for making a judgement! Seems a bit of a contradiction.:) Why is it OK to pass judgement on motives that cannot be known, but wrong to make judgement on sin in the body of Christ that we are commanded to do?

Is it none of our business? I would suggest it is our business if a professed Christian minister of the gospel is in clear open sin to call it for what it is. Is this distortion of 'do not judge' the reason that sin is so common and accepted in the church today.

What does Jesus actually say about how to judge a false prophet coming in sheep's clothing?

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

"Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

"Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Matt 7:15-20).

So we are to make a judgement based on fruit, so we can beware them. Interestingly it is not what they say, but what they do!

Why is it such an important issue? Well if someone cannot remain faithful or trustworthy to their wives (or husband), how can they be considered faithful to Christ and trustworthy in anything they say? Even more so in a high profile public position when speaking on behalf of Christ and receiving funds to support a ministry do they need to have integrity. Is there a place of repentance and forgiveness? Yes, but it has to be true repentance and turning from the sin. At the very least they have forfeited their right to be a minister of Christ in any shape or form.

Intercession is the business of Jesus
Accusation is the business of the 'Accuser of the brethren'

Which one is being displayed in this thread?

Russell

Jesus has spoken on the matter and He has said that to enter into a marriage after divorce is to commit adultery. Did He understand human loneliness? Of course He did, yet He also led Paul to reaffirm His teachings on the matter, If a woman does depart, she is to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled to her husband and a husband is NOT to put his wife away (I Corinthians 7:10-11).

Why must we honor this in spite of loneliness, because we say we love the Lord and because when we marry our first marriage partner, we are joined for life. Only death will free one to marry again (Romans 7:2-3, I Corinthians 7:39). I am so very glad that God is more merciful and forgiving than people. I am truly thankful that I will be judged by Him and not some Pharisaical Christians.

"What God has joined together, let man not separate.” Also, anyone who remarries after divorce””unless the divorce was prompted by marital unfaithfulness by the other person””commits adultery.

Personally speaking I am a widower, I could remarry, I just have no desire to, I still feel as though I am still married to my wife, that even death has not separated us, it just helps me move forward with this attitude.

Just a thought here, do any of you know for sure that Hal Lindsey's or Hagee's x wife/wives did not commit adultery? As for as I am concerned, if you don't, you have no right to judge.

The truth is that things aren’t always what they seem. Sometimes, what you see is not what you think you see. Falsely accusing, or judging, one another is a serious matter. It’s not that we intentionally make false judgments.

Most likely, we believe that our assumptions are correct. We trust our instincts. We trust what we see and know. Unfortunately, sometimes our instincts are wrong. Sometimes, we jump to conclusions before we get all the facts. John 7:24 warns us "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

I would prefer to take Jesus' warning seriously and BEWARE of them. The word "cannot" means "cannot" in verse 18. Whether or not they are forgiven is between them and God. We hope that they are granted forgiveness before leaving earth... But as "prophets" or "proclaimers" ... they have already shown their fruit ... not good. BEWARE! (take Jesus' advice ... don't pay any attention to anyone else').

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

All,

It is not my intention to get involved in discussions that may lead to strife, contention, and debates. When I do, I truly do so prayerfully. My heart and desire is that we extend the same courtesy to one another as God has extended to each and every one of us as He bids us to "come and reason together", Isaiah 1:18.

First of all a short testimony about myself. This topic of judging and adultery are two topics that affected me and my wife personally. We married when we both were lost, I got saved and poured myself into church and God. She attended the ride for a few years but eventually felt rejected by me and lonely.

She began having an affair. I was encouraged to divorce her and find a Christian wife as my wife did not get saved. For 3 years I was confused as to what Gods will was. Do I, 1) Love my wife. 2) Find another wife. 3) Remain single and serve God.

After 9 years of being saved I got filled with the Holy Spirit because I was truly thirsty and hungry for everything God wanted for me and the confusion was eating me alive.

Shortly thereafter God speaks to me in a way I had never felt or heard before. One day while sitting in church where a woman I was attracted to also attended, I looked at a couple who were sitting together holding hands and kissing one another. The problem was they both had recently divorced their mates who also attended the same church and they now were planning on getting married.

As I looked at them God said, "David, come out from amongst these people, for this (divorcing my wife and remarrying another)is not My will for you. As He said these words, I felt like a ton of weight left me. He then said, "David, love your wife as I love the church and gave Myself for her". I now felt free, the confusion was gone and He said a third thing, "If you will trust Me and obey My word, I will restore your home and your marriage".

My wife divorced me 2 years later, but I knew God had spoken a promise to me and 7 years later my wife and I remarried (2006). Our lives have never been the same.

During this time of great trial and testing God faithfully ministered to Me His will for my life, home, and marriage by the Holy Spirit. He then provided men who came and confirmed all that God had said with the scriptures.

My first question is regarding some statements brother Greg has stated. He said,

"Is it possible for God to have mercy on remarriage, yes. Is remarriage a sin, it does appear our Lord clearly shows it as transgression".

If remarriage while one has a living mate still living is sin as you state and the word confirms how can God also have mercy?

If a remarriage starts out as adultery as it appears in the case of Hal Lindsey, at what point does God have mercy?

The church has fallen into deception or has been turned over to deception when it comes to covenant marriage. For anyone to obtain mercy, repentance is a prerequisite.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

The word says there are 2 conditions that must be met in order to obtain mercy. Confessing the sin AND forsaking the sin.

So my question is, Why is the sin of adultery the exception to the rule of repentance? In order for a thief to be forgiven he must quit stealing, a liar must quit lying, a drunkard must put away the bottle, etc. Yet with the adulterer why can he still continue on with his adultery?

There is no answer in the affirmative. Repentance means to turn from and to turn to. Turn from the sin, idolatry, blasphemy, stealing, murder (anger), coveteousness, fornication, AND adultery, and turn to God.

Ignorance is no longer an excuse for sin as God NOW commands repentance.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

In addition, ignorance is not an excuse because we already know in our own conscience when we are sinning against God. If the lost and unregenerate know, how much more do we that have the Spirit of God know when we or others are sinning against Him?

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature (because of their conscience) the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

On judgement day, God will be clear when He speaks and righteous when He judges and He does not even need the bible or written scriptures to condemn every human being that has ever been born. He can simply show every man where he has sinned against his own conscience.

Greg also said, "It goes beyond scripture to state that every remarriage is in perpetual adultery".

Brother, I so prefer to have these kinds of discussions face to face so we can reason together and for the other side to see that the goal is not contention, division, or strife but contending for the faith of Gods Holy Words.

When sin begins and it is not stopped, confessed, and repented of, it is perpetual, IT IS a state of being. If this is true for the thief and the liar, it is also true for the adulterer, there is no exception unless one's previous mate die's.

Romans 7:2-3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. (3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be CALLED an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Paul says that if anyone, man or woman, marries another while their covenant spouse is still alive they shall be CALLED an adulterer(ess). That word "called" means they will "bear as a title" their sin. Whether one is a thief, adulterer, liar, until they repent they will be called a thief, adulterer, liar.

The bible says we are to speak the truth, everyone to his neighbor. The motivation for speaking the truth is love and I agree we must believe that God would have mercy but mercy requires confession and forsaking of the sin. We judge first the sin in ourselves and we judge the sin in others not to CONDEMN but RESTORE.

I have heard so many people who have confessed that their second and many times subsequent marriages started out as adultery but that they had repented while still remaining in the marriage. I have heard Pastors say the very same thing from the pulpit, can you imagine what the fornicator or drunkard sitting in that same church or hearing that same logic? He would say to himself, OK, if that guy can hang on to his adulterous marriage and still make it into heaven, I guess I can keep sleeping with my girlfriend and getting drunk every night.

The very reason the divorce rate is so high within the church and Pastors leading the pack in divorce and extramarital affairs is because we as the church have failed to stand and fight for the truth and call sin, sin.

Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword (judgement) come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

God have mercy on us if we cannot see the importance of what God instituted in the garden in the very beginning when He said He would make two one flesh. When God says that judgement will begin at the house of God, it's not that it is coming in the future, it's here.

God has even turned up the degree of judgement because we not only excuse adultery in the house of God we are now beginning to excuse same sex marriage!!!!!!!!!

Professing Christians, Joel Osteen, and many others are saying, "Who are we to judge?"

Jesus clearly says, when we judge, judge righteously and not hypocritically, get the beam out of your eye FIRST, so that you can clearly see to HELP your BROTHER get the splinter out of his eye. We judge because God has SET judgement in the church and we judge because we love God and the brethren, the two great commandments.

Which one of us would walk by a burning home with children inside and not do everything in our power to rescue the children? Would we walk around debating the issue? Do we mind our own business? God forbid.

Covenant marriage between one man and one woman until death is a type and a picture of Christ's relationship with His bride. If we distort the first we will certainly distort the latter. Many professing Christians will embrace ecumenicalism and allow for other gods (husbands)saying Jesus is NOT the only way.

When the antichrist comes all the worlds religions will come together as one and this has already begun. This deception is being allowed due to the rejection of the true, a spirit of delusion has been released by God.

I want to jump back to a thought/question brother Bill has raised whether we know of Lindsey or Hagee's wives had committed adultery.

My own experience does not trump Gods will or scripture so please do not take what I am saying as thus sayeth the Lord.

Only in the book of Matthew do we have two verses that contain the exception clauses and I am not going into the usual arguments for and against these clauses at the moment. Just remember there are also two other Gospels that do NOT contain these exceptions.

In my own experience my wife left me after 10 years of marriage and began committing adultery. Because her sin was in the open for all to see EVERYONE jumped to the conclusion that I was innocent. Jesus says that ANYONE who looks upon the opposite sex and desires them sexually has committed adultery ALREADY in their heart.

Me, Lindsey, Hagee, and every single person here has committed adultery in their heart, period. There is not anyone of us innocent, and even if there were, we are doomed because we have certainly broken all of the other commandments.

Getting into bed with someone other than your spouse does not constitute adultery because it begins in the heart. Putting a knife in someone and killing them does not constitute murder because murder begins in the heart.

The answer to the question regarding these men and their wives is that THEY both have committed adultery in their hearts at some point. In my situation when you have your church, your Christian brothers and sisters, your family, and the DEVIL coming to you and telling you that you are innocent, there is a strong tendency to buy into that lie from the pit of hell.

As for me, my crying out to God for 3 years was, what was Gods will for me? God clearly spoke the WAY of love, forgiveness, restoration, and reconciliation, NOT divorce, unforgiveness, and justifying myself because I TOO was guilty.

God hates divorce, period. God showed me my own sin and what He did for me on the cross, He bid me to come a freely drink and receive of that forgiveness and He asked me how could I come and partake of that forgiveness and not do likewise to my own flesh?

My wife has returned, she was once lost, but now she is found, my wife until this very day speaks and testifies of the forgiveness that was shown her. Very often she tells someone that if I did not forgive her, she would be dead.

One thought that haunted me during the time she was in adultery and I was getting my eyes and heart on another woman in my church was, What would I do if I divorced my wife and remarried and then one day my wife came back and repented? Would I turn her away? that thought put such a FEAR in me by the grace of God and God used it to save me from making the mistake.

So the question is, what if these mens wives committed adultery like my wife?, is not forgiveness the path God would prefer? These men are leading the flock of God and setting the example.

Ezekiel 34:2-4 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? (3) Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. (4) The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

What does God say regarding the bill of divorcement He gave to Israel? Did that bill dissolve their union or covenant? No. Read Jeremiah 3 very carefully and see how many times God uses the Hebrew word shub H7725, which means to turn, return, bring back, restore, withdraw.... This word means in essence to repent.

While many think God put Israel away and has denied the covenant He made with them read very carefully.

Jeremiah 3:12-14 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. (13) Only ACKNOWLEDGE thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed (committed adultery) against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. (14) TURN, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I AM MARRIED unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

God say He, in spite of the bill of divorcement, is STILL married to Israel and wants her to acknowledge (confess) and turn (repent) back to Him.

For me, God used this portion with so many other lessons over our long trial, that He has not forsaken His wife as so many believe. I believe God wants us to follow the example of Himself and Hosea.

I realize that this may possibly anger some and I do not take that lightly, not for my sake, but for yours.

When it comes to divorce, two missing elements are repentance and forgiveness. For two Christians to not have these working in their marriage is beyond my comprehension and there is no excuse.

I am open to reasoning from the word of God but I refuse to fight His battles. If one has a sincere question I will answer from the scriptures, as I said, my own opinion and even my own experience are a far second to the authority of scripture.

My marriage is only one of tens of thousands God has restored and many say, "well that is for you, and not me?"

My answer to that is, If God is willing to do it for one, is He not willing to do it for another? If so, He then is a respecter of persons and we know that contradicts scripture.

Final judgement rests with God and while it grieves me to the core when I here people teach and lead people astray, my heart is to see these souls come to repentance, not judgement.

May the Lord help us.

I haven't seen this verse addressed in this thread:

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

Seems clear to me from that verse that God allows divorce in the case of adultery.

I think this verse is also pertinent here:

"But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace."-1Corinthians 7:15

The view that one must stay married to an adulterous spouse and cannot remarry even in a case of adultery or abandonment by their spouse is extreme and goes way beyond Scripture imo.

Oracio, Was Jesus being "extreme" when He clearly stated:

Luc 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Right after that statement, he tells the grizzly account of a man who died in his sins:

Luc 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: ...

Only one verse supports some sort of remote possibility of allowance for divorce (in the case of fornication ... Matt. 19:9), but not even that verse supports the idea that remarriage after divorce is permitted.

If you do a search on the word adultery in the New Testament, and with a sincere open mind and heart want to know how God feels about divorce and remarriage, you cannot come to the conclusion that you have stated:

"and cannot remarry even in a case of adultery or abandonment by their spouse is extreme and goes way beyond Scripture imo"

When you read all of the verses involving adultery in the New Testament you come to the realization that it would be extreme to permit remarriage.

Human feelings permit it in a heartbeat, but the heart is deceitful!

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

So this is what I gather it's saying. If I divorce my wife because she was unfaithful,and marry another it's ok. If someone has not been married, they can marry her without committing adultery.

Only one verse supports some sort of remote possibility of allowance for divorce (in the case of fornication ... Matt. 19:9), but not even that verse supports the idea that remarriage after divorce is permitted.

If Christ allows for a divorce in the case of adultery, by definition that implies remarriage is also allowed because a "divinely permissible" divorce dissolves the marriage covenant. Once the marriage covenant is broken there is no more binding to it, you are free from it.

1Cor.7:15 tells us that a brother or sister is no longer in bondage to a marriage if their spouse abandons them. They are free from the marriage.

Let's heed all of Scripture brothers and sisters, not just parts of it we may prefer above others.

Oracio, Was Jesus being "extreme" when He clearly stated:

Luc 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

defella,

Your testimony is inspiring. Appreciate you sharing it.

I did volunteer counseling at a Crises Pregnancy Center for many years. In the course of counseling women we had many who were divorced, fornicating, cheating...and we had a few godly ladies who simply wanted a pregnancy test - no crises for them.

For those who were divorced - or in varying stages of it - I asked them about their being divorced. "How do you feel about that?" I asked. With only one exception, they told me, "I know it is wrong." I asked, "what makes you say that?" They said, "You know what the Bible says.." I asked, "what does it say?" And they proceeded to tell me that it is wrong, it is sin.

Ladies and gentlemen, these ladies instinctively knew it was wrong. They did not come to my church and hear any sermons on this issue and I did not share my conviction with them on this issue. They attended churches where it was approved. How did they know? Why did they know? I did not tell them it was sin: they knew.

This was the work of the Holy Spirit. This experience reaffirmed to me the truthfulness of the WORD. From my observation the only people who give you any grief on this issue are those who have fought this conviction and have convinced themselves otherwise.

Ah, what a tangled web we weave when we decide to deceive. My heart does go out to these people. There is eternity ahead - how can a body impress another the awfulness of time away from God for ever and ever? Ya want a bit of pleasure now but at what cost? Lord, have mercy!

"And again, if a divorce is permitted by God, that implies remarriage is also permitted."

To say that remarriage is permitted because divorce is permitted is a big leap of faith on one's own opinion. It is in no way implied nor supported by scripture.

David Fella has quite a thorough study on it in this thread! When Jesus was asked about it from the religious of his day, he clearly stated that it is NOT God's plan at all from the beginning, and that God had only permitted it (under Old Testament law) because of stubborn hard hearts! That was before the perfect sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

In Jr. High school choir, we were taught a (worldly) song "You Light Up My Life"

"You light up my life,
You give me hope
To carry on
You light up my days
And fill my nights with song...."

The last line of the song characterizes the mentality of most adulterers: "It can't be wrong when it feels SO right ... cause you, you light up, you light up, you light up my life".

In the book of Proverbs, God points out that characteristic heart deception clearly:

Pro 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

The fact that one feels perfectly right about it does not mean that it will pass the judgment of God. He Word leans totally in a different direction!

To those who hold the view that divorce and remarriage are not allowed under any circumstances, I offer my sincere apologies for stating that that view is extreme and way beyond Scripture. I understand that this topic is debatable among solid believers. I realize I would not want certain of my views on non-essentials to be characterized as extreme and way beyond Scripture.

Regarding Hal Lindsey, personally I think it would have been better if more information was available. For all we know his previous wives could have committed adultery and he may have kept quiet about it and simply divorced them and remarried.

But with John Hagee it seems very clear that he committed adultery and should not have any platform in ministry.

Edit added: Regardless, I'm not fond of either one of their ministries and would not recommend them.

I wanted to ask this again because some come here with a determined opinion and never even read some of the other posts.

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

My question seems pretty plain and simple and to the point. If I divorce my wife because she was unfaithful,and marry another it's ok? and if someone has not been married, they can marry her without committing adultery?.

This is the way I am reading the scripture above, if someone wants to explain to me this is not what it's saying, please do.

It is amazing to me how some on hear can be so legalistic!

They would have David in hell for his adultery! We know that Jesus is the son of David according to the scriptures!

We also know that Solomon built a house for the Lord under the guidance of the Lord himself. Solomon is also the son of Bathsheba (the wife of David in whom he committed adultery with and also had her husband killed before he married her).

We all know that what David did displeased the Lord and also brought a sword against his house, for God punished him.

We also know that David was under the Law (where the crime for adultery was being stoned to death) but God had mercy upon him. God even blessed the union of him and his wife of adultery with a child named Solomon.

We also know that David was a man after God's own heart and was completely restored back to God. For God had said that he would never take his mercy away from David.

We are blessed by God's grace and mercy today under the new covenant. Thank God there is no sin that the blood of Christ cannot cover and cleanse us of completely.

The accuser of the brethren is Satan and those who he uses. We must not be guilty of bringing up sins of the past that the blood has covered. We will all be judged according to how we have judged others.

James 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Great Post Brother Banks. I only know of one Jesus, the "perfect one". I know as Christians we are to be like Jesus, but God knows being like Jesus he did not mean literally. Just like folks could try and be like Bill, but they could never be Bill. Being exactly like Jesus, you would have to become perfect, and look like him, that's being like Jesus. Some kids say I want to be like my Dad or Mom, it's impossible to be like them, you can own the exact house or car or have the same job, but your still not like them, you never will be and never can be. There are no two people alike, God made us all different, even Jesus.

Brothers, this is not a thread to discuss about whether divorce is scriptural. The person in question here was in relationship with a younger women in his congregation for years before marrying her.

Like i said before Divorce is a very sensitive term. We cannot just prove someone is wrong by using one interpretation; we need to look case by case.

Now I want to answer this question about Luke 16;9 in which Jesus has clearly said Divorcee and remarriage is sin.

Now let us see how he contradicts himself in MATT19;9. We all know scripture cannot contradict itself. Neither did Jesus miss a particular condition in Luke 16 as some here think. Let me give you a clear logical explanation. I am sure though my logic is right no one who supports divorce will change their opinion. I am giving the right interpretation to prove that scripture cannot contradict.

Jesus clearly said in starting of Matthew 19 that he does not permit divorce.
3 Some Pharisees came to [b]Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to [c]divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

So till here it is new covenant. That Jesus gave. He does not permit divorce. It is inline with Luke 16. SO no contradiction. Now the pharisees understood what Jesus meant here much clearly than we Christians and asked him.

"Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?'

Now Jesus's answer is very clear. He is only answering to the question. Why did MOSES permit but YOU did not permit in new covenant.

8 He *said to them, "Because of your HARDNESS of HEART Moses permitted you to [d]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever [e]divorces his wife, except for [f]immorality, and marries another woman [g]commits adultery[h].”

Moses permitted Divorce because in Old Covenant men had a hard heart that had no compassion. So he gave them permission to divorce. But even in that case of heard heart, it should be coupled with adultery to divorce legally. NOW it is clear that Matthew 19;8 is only an explanation given for why Moses permitted divorce. We cannot separate a piece of scripture and make a rule. IT IS WORK OF DEVIL TO READ OR TAKE SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT. LIKE HOW HE DID TO TEMPT JESUS;

Now the question, why did Jesus not permit Divorce in NEW covenant? Answer is in New Covenant we have a heart of flesh. There is no unforgiving heart like Old Covenant where a person had no mercy. Now we have tasted the mercy of Jesus to show mercy to our partner.

Now you may question me like what in the case of physical abuse, the answer is we need to see everything case by case.

If a minister commits adultery there must be church discipline applied. If the person is repentant they can go through a process of restoration. If they are unrepentant they must be excommunicated and handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh and salvation of the soul per 1Cor.5.

Regarding the issue of divorce and remarriage, I can see how it can get touchy among believers. Like I said, there are solid believers and Bible teachers/preachers on both sides and both sides point to certain scriptures to support their view.

A sad thing to see would be for this difference to become cause for strife and division among believers. By the tone of some who have posted in this thread and other threads in the past concerning this issue, it seems that some may feel so strongly about it that they would divide from other believers over this difference. I hope I am wrong about that impression I got.

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."-Matthew 19:9

My question seems pretty plain and simple and to the point. If I divorce my wife because she was unfaithful,and marry another it's ok? and if someone has not been married, they can marry her without committing adultery?.

I believe I have given an answer to all your questions clearly both scriptural and logical in my previous post. You can either skip my clear explanation and continue in your understanding of taking a scripture out of context. If you do so you are only proving that you are one of the following people who you rightly called with determined mind,

some come here with a determined opinion and never even read some of the other posts.

I would like to address all the questions that have been raised and remind everyone we are on the same side if we truly desire to follow Him and His will for our lives.

So I am going to work backwards from the most recent post.

rbanks has made a statement about being legalistic. Obedience to God and His word is in no way being legalistic and Gods grace was never meant to cover one's sin. All that you stated regarding David is absolutely true however if David's response to Nathan was not one of brokenness and contriteness God would not have pardoned him. David clearly repented.

As a result, David penned Psalm 51 a Psalm of repentance. If David would have tried to excuse and justify his sin or if we try to excuse and justify our own sin, or the sin of others, there simply is no mercy or grace.

Brother Bill, I was told once by a beloved brother when studying scripture to make the plain verses the main verses. Once that is prayerfully done and we look to God for true understanding with no preconceived notion and ask God for wisdom concerning the unclear verses God will not withhold.

When I was going through my trial in my own marriage I mentioned it took 3 years before God spoke very clearly His will. What I did not share was that during that time especially in the beginning I was DEEPLY wounded and hurt. I have never in all my life felt pain like that. This pain was also coupled with tremendous anger.

In the beginning I poured over the scriptures, not looking for a way of restoration, but for a way OUT of my marriage. The very verse you mentioned was one I labored over nearly to the end, before the Lord spoke His will to me. My confusion and misery was due to the fact that when I would think this verse and a couple others were my ticket out of my marriage, God would say that, these particular verses were not saying what I thought. This made me miserable.

But by the grace of God the fear of the Lord kept me from taking one step forward, backward, left or right. In my heart I knew there was something wrong with my approach as sister Sandra stated earlier, the Holy Spirit had convicted me, yet I did not know why. I wanted scripture to provide me with a way out of my marriage, when I could not reconcile the few remaining verses that appeared the way out, my prayer changed from, God get me out of this marriage so I can be with this Christian woman. My prayer had now become, Lord please show me YOUR will, not my own.

Many people think God wants us to be happy, no, God wants us to be holy. You ask about Matthew 19:9 and the exception clause. Let's look at a couple other verses first that do not contain the exception clause.

Mark 10:11-12 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. (12) And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: (11) But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

In these 3 portions of scripture they clearly stand in contradiction to Matthew 19:9. One could say the majority rules, but more importantly, why would God allow such a contradiction? I was hung up on this verse for so long, I cried over this verse for a very long time but God kept saying, No, this is not what this verse is saying.

In my situation I was being told my wife was fornicating and that was my way out. It made sense to me because my flesh wanted to have the other woman. The problem is in this very verse God uses two words to denote fornication and adultery. Fornication in the Greek is porneia, and the Greek word for adultery is moichao. Most teach that the word fornication also includes adultery but I could not get past the fact if this were true why would not Jesus use just the one word for fornication if it also includes adultery?

Why don't Mark and Luke have the exception clause? Once God finally revealed His will for my marriage I was set free from the confusion and misery and I was so happy because loving my wife was what I really wanted deep down inside and knowing THAT was Gods will was like being set free from prison. However once I was set free it seemed like nothing else should matter as I knew, that I knew, that I knew God had finally spoken.

But my curiosity got the better of me and I asked God about this exception clause and God took me to the beginning of the same Gospel and I read the story of the birth of Jesus.

Matthew 1:18-25 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was ESPOUSED to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (19) Then Joseph her HUSBAND, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example (stoning), was minded to put her away (divorce) privily. (20) But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy WIFE: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (21) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (22) Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, (23) Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (24) Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his WIFE: (25) And knew her not (did not consummate) till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

When Mary was espoused to Joseph this portion of scripture calls them husband and wife even though they had not had the marriage ceremony yet nor had they consummated their relationship until AFTER the birth of Jesus.

So basically they were just engaged and then Joseph finds out Mary was pregnant and it says in verse 19, then Joseph her husband sought to divorce her secretly because he did not want Mary to be stoned to death. Why?

What was Joseph thinking Mary had done? He knows he did not lay with her. So what was the only conclusion Joseph could have come to prior to the Angel of the Lord speaking to him?

That Mary had committed fornication, sex outside of marriage, not adultery but fornication. At the time the Lord was sharing these things I was confused until he later sent men to me to better understand this portion of scripture.

Matthew is a Gospel written to the Jewish people and in Jewish custom once a man and woman are espoused/engaged, at that very moment they are called husband and wife. Typically their engagement would last about a year in order for the man to set up their home and for the woman's family to get her dowry together.

During this time and even on the night of the marriage if the husband were to find out the woman was not a virgin he could give her a bill of divorcement because she had committed fornication.

This I believe is the reason the exception clauses are in Matthew and not in Mark or Luke. If this is the case, all the Gospels are in harmony. Apart from this explanation to conclude that Matthew 19:9 somehow trumps or negates the clear statements of Jesus in Mark and Luke is a grand leap of faith.

Oracio brings up the same question concerning Matthew 19:9 saying that God would allow divorce in the case of sexual immorality. I do not believe that Jesus meant sexual immorality when He uses the word porneia which could include all modes of sexual sin including adultery, if so, he would have only used moichao to describe both fornication and adultery.

No where else will you find the Greek word porneia as a stand alone word describing all sexual sin.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,...

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

If we look solely at Mark and Lukes accounts on the subject of remarriage after a divorce it is clearly forbidden.

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

First question regarding this verse is where in scripture does the word of God refer to a marriage as bondage? Marriage is not bondage.

In my own case, when my wife wanted to leave, I had to let her leave and I was not under bondage of trying to keep my wife against her own will because God had called me to peace. For one to try and keep their mate when they want to leave is the bondage Paul is speaking of, not bondage to the marriage God instituted in the Garden. No where in scripture will you find covenant marriage being equated to bondage.

Oracio also said,

If Christ allows for a divorce in the case of adultery, by definition that implies remarriage is also allowed because a "divinely permissible" divorce dissolves the marriage covenant. Once the marriage covenant is broken there is no more binding to it, you are free from it.

I have not found one verse that says a covenant can be broken. A covenant can be violated but not broken. Jesus NEVER allows for remarriage after a divorce He actually says the opposite. God never intended for a covenant marriage to end in divorce nor did God ever give an allowance for divorce. Moses did, but not God.

Matthew 19:4-8 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? (8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Jesus says Moses, NOT God, allowed for divorcement because of their hard hearts, He said from the beginning divorce was never intended.

Like Oracio and Sree have both said this is a touchy subject, nevertheless, it is a reality in the body of Christ. To not be able to discuss the issue is not the answer. If we turn a blind eye to this won't make it go away. My heart is also not to see strife and division but that would God speak to each and every person His will.

I know many dear friends and family that are in adulterous situations. I am not their judge, thank God. I pray that God would open their heart to the truth.

Yes I will admit I am dogmatic on the subject, just like I am dogmatic on many other things in scripture. But as I stated earlier those who oppose the truth of scripture their battle is not with me, but the word of God.

May God bless and help us all, to know and do of His good pleasure.

Brethren, I could come on SI and get pretty dogmatic about certain other doctrines such as pertaining to end times, Calvinism vs Arminianism, spiritual gifts, etc. I think we should try to discuss such issues with respect toward one another and not in a condescending way, like I did in stating that a certain view was extreme and way beyond Scripture, for which I sincerely apologized.

But come to think of it, I guess there may not be an easy way around the fact that some believe a remarriage is adultery no matter the circumstance. When one believer says that another believer is living in adultery simply because they remarried, things can get, well, more than just touchy. It can be taken as quite an offense by the remarried believer.

So I guess we may just have to live with the reality of this strong disagreement among believers after all. Tough issue.

No where in scripture will you find covenant marriage being equated to bondage.

A marriage is binding on both persons as long as there is no adultery or abandonment or if one person dies. If there is adultery, the person cheated on has scriptural permission to file for divorce, but they don't have to. But if they do no one can judge them because it is permitted by God. That's what I get from considering the whole of the New Testament teaching on marriage and divorce. I too have tried to dig deep into the pertinent scriptures and that's what I came up with along with many other Christians and respected Bible teachers/preachers.

Firstly I would like to say to Dave Fella that your testimony is an excellent encouragement and that your obedience to what God spoke to you shows God's most perfect will. I don't agree with all the conclusions that you have subsequently come on this subject, but I do commend your faithfulness to your marriage.

I think there is a danger in discussing the issue of remarriage being permissible or not in some situations as missing the real issue here. The issue in view is the discarding of a wife or husband to replace them with another.

Because some have come to the conclusion from scripture that in certain circumstances a person may be free to marry again does not mean they encourage divorce or that they think that marriage is anything but a life long covenant. They can still hold to a very high view of marriage as binding on their part. However there can be circumstances out of their control that leave them abandoned.

I know folk on either side of this argument that have given very serious study, prayer and consideration to these matters and yet have to different conclusions. However they would all agree that marriage is a lifelong covenant, not to be defiled, but treated with honour.

The issue in view here is the forsaking or putting away of wives to then immediately take another wife and in one example multiple times. This just shows a contempt for the institution of marriage, which God said is a reflection of Christ and His church! This is what makes the whole thing such an abomination. It just throws contempt on God's covenant keeping character with His people. How can anyone respect someone who claims to speak for God who shows such little respect for His covenants.

Even if (and I doubt it) that person had three consecutive wives who committed adultery, it still would be wrong (even if technically permissible) for them to move onto another marriage and not to try and find out why this was happening to them and do all they could to seek for reconciliation, putting God's honour and a good testimony above personal desires.

For those who sincerely desire to know what Jesus meant by what he said in Matthew chapter 19, it is interesting to note the reaction of the disciples when they later discussed privately with Jesus what He had discussed with the Pharasees:

Matthew 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

They saw CLEARLY what He meant. Then the next words from the mouth of Our Lord cement the issue (of meaning) even MORE solidly:

Matthew 19:11-12 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake ... Hmmmm ... Think about that ... Ponder it ...

In Mark chapter 9 Jesus CLEARLY states that you would be better off without a hand, a foot, or an eye, than having those body parts to end up in the eternal flames.

If I were in a "situation" as some have come into .... I would much rather become a eunuch and remain in the kingdom of heaven than to become an adulterer.

Heydave ...Because some have come to the conclusion from scripture that in certain circumstances a person may be free to marry again does not mean they encourage divorce or that they think that marriage is anything but a life long covenant. They can still hold to a very high view of marriage as binding on their part. However there can be circumstances out of their control that leave them abandoned.

Thank you brother! you discerned exactly what was on my mind. For the record, I never would condone divorce, why? because I have been in those shoes, not of my own choosing. My X, that has passed now, allowed the devil to defeat her by taking multiple prescription drugs, issued by careless doctors, and listened to her worldly friends while under the influence, and filed for divorce. As some have mentioned, there are multiple reasons divorce occurs, mine, I had no choice she filed, so what does that make me in the eyes of the self righteous?

I too say amen to Heydave's last post!

Michael wrote:

"In Mark chapter 9 Jesus CLEARLY states that you would be better off without a hand, a foot, or an eye, than having those body parts to end up in the eternal flames.

If I were in a "situation" as some have come into .... I would much rather become a eunuch and remain in the kingdom of heaven than to become an adulterer."

Query: Did God forgive David for stealing Bathsheba from Uriah and getting him killed?

If so, on what basis do you hold that God would not forgive similar crimes today? How could a just God forgive David but not forgive someone today for the same sins? Assuming there is repentance? (And remember David repented but he did not divorce his wrongly acquired wife).

TMK...How could a just God forgive David but not forgive someone today for the same sins?

Did David keep on committing adultery? Was Bathsheba's husband Uriah still alive when David was forgiven?

Repeating the reminders posted by others in this thread ... forgiveness only comes when we confess and forsake our sin.

I think we need to be careful not to downplay the need for church discipline when adultery is committed in a church. Sadly many churches these days do downplay that need and allow ministers to keep ministering shortly after they commit adultery. It shows they have a low view of sin. We must remember that while God is patient with us He also hates sin and deals with it in keeping with His holiness. He has prescribed certain steps of dealing with blatant or scandalous sin in the camp. We must heed that requirement because we don't want to be found among those who approve of or condone sin.

Oracio....I think we need to be careful not to downplay the need for church discipline when adultery is committed in a church. Sadly many churches these days do downplay that need and allow ministers to keep ministering shortly after they commit adultery.

The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so ... Romans 8:7

Some brethren have stated that in Matt.19 Christ says it was MOSES that permitted divorce, not Christ. But our Lord says there in verse 9,

"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery."

He says "I" say, not Moses. I'm reminded of the sermon on the mount where Christ says multiple times, "But I say to you..." making it clear that His words are binding, and making a distinction between the peoples' misunderstanding of God's Word and what God's truth actually was.

Also, I don't think it is correct to say that the exception clause only applied in the Old Covenant under the Mosaic law. Some try to apply that kind of reasoning to many of Christ's other teachings like in the sermon on the mount. I'm sure we would agree that we cannot say the sermon on the mount is not applicable to us today.

Michael wrote:

"Did David keep on committing adultery? Was Bathsheba's husband Uriah still alive when David was forgiven?

No-- but david is the one who had him killed! You seem to be suggesting that if an adulterer wants to be forgiven he would be better off if he kills the spouse of the person he is committing adultery with. That way he can keep on living with the woman. Whoa.

He says "I" say, not Moses. I'm reminded of the sermon on the mount where Christ says multiple times, "But I say to you..." making it clear that His words are binding, and making a distinction between the peoples' misunderstanding of God's Word and what God's truth actually was.

In SERMON ON THE MOUNT whereever Jesus used 'but I', he increased the standard than what Moses laid. Example if murder was considered sin then Jesus raised the standard to even anger. But here JESUS was only telling what Moses has already said, we cannot even compare the two.

In Matthew 19, starting from verse 7 to 9, is an answer to why Jesus is not allowing Divorce but Moses permitted it. How on earth will Jesus answer such a question permitting divorce? The answer then will negate the purpose of question.

I also gave a clear explanation in my previous post on why in new covenant we do not have divorce. It is because our heart is not hard. We have a heart of flesh. My explanation is in line with Luke 16 -18.

I have edited this post as I have not written it in write spirit. I have removed certain lines that was used for challenging rather than edifying. Forgive me.

[Edited to remove certain sentences which were not written in right spirit]

I strongly believe that there is no divorce and remarriage in New Covenant based on what Jesus said in Matthew 19 and Luke 16:18. But that does not mean that I am one of those who is asking remarried couples to separate and be united with their X or live alone. We have to see each and every thing case by case. But as far as I see people here who support remarriage are twisting God's word to allow Divorce in New Covenant. Which is unscriptural.

For example there are many people who come to Christ after they are divorced and remarried. We cannot ask them to separate because God overlooks the time of Ignorance.

But what if a believer who claims to follow Jesus and live a new covenant life, marries a women and the women leaves him, how do we handle this? See let us look into the root of all this Divorce between born again believers.

First they do not seek God's will in Marriage. If they really regard marriage as highly as they believe then they should have seeked God's will in it. When I stood in my marriage, I was praying that Lord if it is not your will for me to marry this girl, then stop the wedding even at the very last minute, I am fine with it. How many can honestly say that they were seeking God's will in their marriage with such a radical stand?

The second reason is, giving space for God in marriage. I believe if even Husband or wife was continuously seeking Lord in their marriage then their marriage will be saved (1 Cor 7:14). Many broken marriages are due to not letting God repair the marriage. I know many here will disagree with what I said here but it is based on what Paul said in 1 Cor 7:14.

Please do not consider my post offensive, the purpose of my post is, we all miss to include God in our marriage and then blame his command for being to hard to follow. I am not here to say I am better than someone here or have a better wife. It is all about letting God in our marriage do his work everyday.

Again it is a very sensitive subject, please forgive me if I have hurt anyone. We cannot correct the past but we can agree God's word. God's word is always true, it is men who fall short by not seeking his Grace. We cannot reduce the standard of his word because we fall. Let us accept our shortcomings and keep the Lord's standard the same.

Now I know a man of God whose son missed to seek God's will in his marriage. He had a failed marriage and now he has divorced her because she is interested in another man. Now the man of God is looking for a bride for his divorced son. To me you have to choose the better of 2 evils, you know your son is young (30), there is no way he is going to live a pious life all his remaining days without falling in Adultery. So it is better to remarry him to a girl so that he may at least not commit adultery with many women. Or God may have mercy on him to overlook his time of Ignorance when he married without seeking God's will. Though I know this Man of God is strong in God's word, I believe he will take a realistic stand. That is why we need to see case by case. But we cannot reduce God's standard in General.

Sree wrote:

"But as far as I see people here who support remarriage are twisting God's word to allow Divorce in New Covenant."

I don't think anyone here supports remarriage or believes that God allows divorce. I think scripture is pretty clear that this is not allowed (except for the exceptions).

However, there are many things that scripture does not allow that Christians do on an almost daily basis.

There are some who seem to believe that a divorced Christian who remarries will burn in hell.

The question is whether God will forgive such a person, like He forgave David.

There are some who seem to believe that a divorced Christian who remarries will burn in hell.

The question is whether God will forgive such a person, like He forgave David.

Jesus said the least saint in New Covenant is greater than the greatest man in Old Covenant (John the Baptist). New Covenant life is not just being Forgiven and going to heaven. It is to live a life of Jesus on this earth by his Grace. So having or taking a old Covenant man as an example for certain sins is not at all wise. Because his life is not at all a standard for us. We can look at certain aspects of his life and be encouraged from it. But we need to overlook at their sins, because they are not prevleged like us. They do not have God's spirit dwelling in them like a New Covenant believer.

All the Pastors or Christians in general who after committing Adultery take the name of David as an example are still living an Old Covenant life. They have neither understood nor tasted the New Covenant life.

In SERMON ON THE MOUNT whereever Jesus used 'but I', he increased the standard than what Moses laid. Example if murder was considered sin then Jesus raised the standard to even anger. But here JESUS was only telling what Moses has already said, we cannot even compare the two.

"Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."

So Jesus then increased the standard and enforced the "exception".

Someone else who posted also forgot about this passage and said only Matt.19:9 hints at permitting divorce in case of fornication.

I was looking into this topic last night a bit in-depth and may soon post a lengthier response on interpreting certain passages.

I have some thoughts that I have pondered over the years that I would like us to consider.

What or Who makes two people one flesh? The act of marriage, marrying, or getting married? A priest, pastor, justice of the peace?

What is the prerequisite for a man and woman coming together in the bond of matrimony?

What makes a one flesh union no longer one but two? A man, a woman, a husband, a wife, a priest, a judge, a piece of paper?

There are only TWO places in the New Testament that speak of what a marriage covenant is, consists of, and the requirements. Taken from Genesis 2:22-24

Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath JOINED together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; (8) And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. (9) What therefore God hath JOINED together, let not man put asunder.

Look at the word JOINED. It is the Greek word "Suzeugnumi"
G4801 and it is only used in these two verses of scripture Matthew 19:6 and Mark 10:9.

It means to yoke together, conjoin, join together.

God is the ONLY One who makes two people one flesh THROUGH Suzeugnumi JOINING. Marriage, marrying, or to marry does not join two people. A priest, Pastor, Justice of the Peace, or a Marriage License does not make two people one flesh.

A person can marry 50 times, but how many times will God actually JOIN them to whom they are marrying?

When God made me and my wife one flesh He no longer sees two people but one. When He sees me, He sees her, when He looks at her, He sees me.

Who does the two above scriptures say that a man is leaving in order to be joined to a wife? Another wife? No, it says he leaves his mother and father, not his first, second, third, or fiftieth wife.

The scriptures are clear that what God has JOINED, no man, husband, wife, clergy, or a divorce judgement can separate.

What does the bible actually say that will make the one flesh covenant no longer one? Only death.

1 Corinthians 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

When it comes to divorce many like to hang their hat on the exception clause in Matthew 19 which states fornication as the exception.

The number one reason people abandon their marriage is because they say, "I do not love him/her anymore" or, "We've grown apart", "We fell out of love" and they use Matthew 19:9 to support their decision.

As a result of what has happened in our marriage we have been exposed to numerous ministries, people, testimonies, of thousands of people all over the world who have shared their experiences.

These experiences are from both sides, meaning the one who left, cheated, committed adultery... AND those who were abandoned. In many of the cases and testimonies I have personally heard MYSELF, those who applied Matthew 19:9 saying that they left was because their mate had been unfaithful were ZERO. They left for ONE reason and that was to fulfill the lust of their flesh.

Please note I said many of the cases and not all. There are people whom I have come to know very well who HAD to leave for their own safety and the safety of their children.

The amazing thing about these dear souls is that they are not looking to find another mate but have committed themselves to stand in faith for their spouse praying, supplicating, interceding, and making up the hedge for their flesh.

I have not heard a few testimonies of marriages that have been restored from the most awful of circumstances. Why? Because people have decided to honor the VOW they made before God and stand in the gap for their mate.

While there are those who have a tendency to look at people who take God and His word at face value as being extreme, a word of caution.

Before you give people a pass and strike hands with them in their decision to divorce and remarry you better be certain that they are meeting the conditions YOU have set forth in their doing so.

And if you have such an assurance that YOUR conditions are right, you will take them before God and give an account one day.

For those who are putting all their chips on Matthew 19:9, do not forget about Mark 10:10-12 and Luke 16:18. The only difference between these 3 accounts is the loophole and I say this from experience because I searched high and low for a way out of my marriage.

I do not say this lightly or carelessly, this is of the utmost seriousness.

For those who are putting all their chips on Matthew 19:9, do not forget about Mark 10:10-12 and Luke 16:18. The only difference between these 3 accounts is the loophole and I say this from experience because I searched high and low for a way out of my marriage.

I do not say this lightly or carelessly, this is of the utmost seriousness.

And if you have such an assurance that YOUR conditions are right, you will take them before God and give an account one day.

At the end of the day I think there are good arguments on both sides.

Romans 4:6-8 (KJV)
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Acts 2:29-31 (KJV)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Both Paul and Peter mentions David in very high regards concerning the new covenant. Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says that David was a prophet.

I also very much agree that under the new covenant we should experience the grace of God that causes us to live a higher standard of righteousness than under the old covenant. Sin is not to have dominion over us because we our not under the Law but under Grace.

What I was saying in my earlier post, is that, we must not condemn others for their past sins because the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to cover and to cleanse us from all sin never to be remembered again, so we should not bring up peoples past sins to condemn them.

We all have past sins even the Apostle Paul whom said that he was the chief of sinners in magnifying also the mercy and grace of God.

I do believe as the Apostles brought out in Timothy and Titus that their is a higher standard for those who proclaim the gospel. We also must realize that we are also to magnify God's mercy and grace in his forgiveness to others in reconciling them to himself. We must also proclaim that their sins and iniquities he will remember them no more.

Hebrews 10:16-19 (KJV)
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

I have come to an understanding that God hates all sin and wants so much to forgive us and to cleanse us completely to where we sin no more.

I also know that the bible does not teach that adultery is a higher sin than murder. Some are very legalistic over "adultery" than they are "murder" not understanding what they are even doing. Jesus even took murder to the level of hating someone in your heart.

Let me give you an example, we all should know that bible teaches that Jesus shed his blood to forgive all sin to the point that God does not hold it against us nor remember it anymore when we repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

We all know that when someone is killed that we can't bring that person back neither can we undo what we have done but God's mercy and grace is sufficient when we confess and repent. We are no longer to walk around in guilt for the rest of our days. Not so to some over adultery, they want the adultery to feel guilty the rest of their life unless they get another divorce and remain single, even when there is no chance of reconciling their former marriage.

They want to go on accusing them of continually living in adultery. I realize that restitution and reconciliation should be made where it is possible to do so, but when it isn't or didn't happen why can't some believe that God can forgive this also and bless the person to live for him. When we can't forgive others of adultery we show no mercy and are self righteous in heart. We must show mercy to others if we want mercy shown to us!

We all need his mercy!

Moses permitted Divorce because in Old Covenant men had a hard heart that had no compassion. So he gave them permission to divorce. But even in that case of heard heart, it should be coupled with adultery to divorce legally.

Sometimes I feel to totally understand God, we would have to be God.

Wife #1 - Ivy Sandra Bodiford Copeland.

Kenneth was 20 years old at the time of their daughter Terri Lin's birth.

Ivy Sandra Copeland was the one of the two who filed for divorce; which is revealed by the fact that she is shown as the "plaintiff” of record in the court document. She was granted the divorce (to include child support) on March 18, 1958.

The civil docket records within a handwritten note,:

Both parties were present at trial. Divorce granted ”“ custody of child to her ”“ he has right to visit. He is ordered to pay $15 each Friday beginning this Friday. Defendant…” referring to Kenneth, "… gave notice of appeal. She is awarded ½ interest in income from contract on all recordings she has made to date under Leonard Contract.

Three years later, court documents show that Kenneth was found in contempt of court on March 31, 1961 for failing to consistently pay his required $15 per week child support to Ivy for Terri. He was in arrears for $1,090.00 (just over 72 weeks worth of support).

Wife #2 - Cynthia Ann Copeland

November 2, 1961, Kenneth and his second wife, Cynthia Ann Copeland, were granted a divorce.

This court document indicates that Kenneth was the "plaintiff” which means that he was the one who filed for divorce this time. However, it also calls Cynthia Ann the "cross-plaintiff” therein, which indicates that she was also wanting to end the marriage for some reason. Thus, it seems that their divorce was a mutual decision, though Kenneth is the party who originally filed. There were no children.

Wife #3 - Gloria Jean Copeland

Only five months after his second divorce was finalized, Kenneth and Gloria were married on April 13, 1962.
He was 25 years old at the time, and she had just turned 20 that February before.

In the light of Kenneth having been married and divorced twice already, his sudden marriage proposal on his very first date with Gloria seems impulsive.

Kellie Dee Copeland - Ward - Kutz - Swisher was born February 9, 1964 to Kenneth and Gloria.

Kellie’s first marriage was to Doyle Blaine Ward on September 18 1982, according to Texas state records. The two had two daughters, Rachel and Lindsey. They were divorced, but the date and conditions thereof are not clear.

Kellie’s second marriage was to Alan Win Kutz, Jr. on November 7, 1985. They had two children together, Jenny and Max.

Win and Kellie were divorced February 10, 2005.

Kellie was remarried for the third time to Stephen Lowell Swisher on July 18, 2008.

In 2011 the title of a week-long series of programs taught by Kellie was The Love of God and His Good Plan for You. The product offering for that series of broadcasts was KCM’s "Power of Love Package,” which includes the teaching series, "Building Relationships that Last.”

Why would she or anyone think she'd be remotely qualified to teach on that subject.

This second-generation televangelist daughter of Kenneth Copeland (by his third wife, Gloria) seems to be following in her dad's footsteps in more ways than one. Now on her third marriage herself, Kellie Copeland (Ward, Kutz) Swisher is continuing in her ministry with third husband Stephen Lowell Swisher.

WHY THIS THREAD - CONSIDER...

1 Tim 3:1,2,7 from two translations;

Faithful is the saying, "If any one is eager to have the oversight of a Church, he desires a noble work." A minister then must be a man of irreproachable character, true to his one wife, temperate, sober-minded, well-behaved, hospitable to strangers, and with a gift for teaching; It is needful also that he bear a good character with people outside the Church, lest he fall into reproach or a snare of the Devil.

It is a faithful saying, that if a man desireth the eldership, he desireth a good work.And an elder ought to be such, that no blame can be found in him; and he should be the husband of one wife, with a vigilant mind, and sober and regular [in his habits], and affectionate to strangers, and instructive;And there ought to be good testimony of him from those without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of Satan.

You know a big issue I see is the fact that all of these ministers mentioned have to " live up" to this unstoppable, got it all together persona that is required from congregations now in days. What if one of these men got up a Sunday morning and said " I have struggled this week with lustful thoughts and God has shown me that a lot of flesh still remains in me. I would rejoice if ONE big name minister was just honest the way Paul was when he confessed all the fear and depression he experienced during his journeys- 1 Cor 2 , 2 Cor 7:5-6 . But you know why they can't? Because the show must go on!! No delays in the presentation , no flaws , no intense brokenness. Our little consumer sheep need their entertainment. They need something to consume and they only consume pretty put together pastors. I'm not talking about being explicit about our struggles, but how shocked we would all be if a pastor got up and was just real! We say it's all about love! Let me ask you this then, how much love would have for your pastor who looks at your wife would lust? It's a total cop out to say I love you, when you don't even know that person. You may love them for being a human being, but get to know them and then test you capacity to love. Should pastors be struggling with lust or any type of sin? NO! But nether should any of us! We are to be holy the way God is holy. And my God doesn't struggle with lust. But there are steps men need to take at times and having to put on show all the time to keep there position and there salary coming in is not going to help. I believe in public confession of struggles , not explicit , but nothing hidden. For the sake of my sanctification and for the sake of testimony to others who need to hear or who are in the same situation. Will that get me to a place of some big name church on stage? Nope! But will it make me more and more like Jesus? I believe so.

Travis

God's Word clearly lays out certain qualifications for being a pastor as well as a deacon in a church (see 1Tim.3:1-13; Titus 1:5-9).

Oracio, I completely agree and I'm not making excuses for sin in pastors. Those are qualifications for a mature Christian as well. I guarantee you if you took away pastors salaries , you would see more honesty in the pulpit and a lot less " falling" that takes place in the pastorate like discussed with these men being mentioned. On a side note, those qualifications are not the totality of qualifications for children of God or pastors. Perfection and holiness is. Now if there is complete sin that continues to happen like pornography , even if it's confessed those men need to step away for a while to get stuff figured out. It doesn't nullify there calling , but if a pastor has a continual issue going on that he may even confess , he has no business leading sheep at that moment. But honestly and truth has fallen in the pulpits that's for sure.

back-to-acts, I agree with you that there should be more honesty in the pulpits than there usually is.

When God laid out the do's and don'ts for Adam and Eve, they were informed that when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would die.

Satan was so helpful to them, telling them that they weren't actually going to die- and at this point they were unfamiliar with death anyway, so they ate the forbidden fruit- and noticed that they had not died!

Or so they thought.

They died the worst death of all, dead to all the gifts of their creator, dead to the authority they had over the whole earth, dead to the intimacy with the creator not shared by any of the rest of creation. Dead in the eyes and broken heart of God.

From the great preachers to the least of us, tasting forbidden fruit is the kiss of death. It may at first appear that nothing really happened, but as sure as He lives, that death will appear and cast its destruction far and wide.

He will not be mocked, and no one's ministry is so valuable to the King that He will let the little fruit tastings slide under the radar.

C.I. Scofield - born August 19,1843

Wife #1 - Leontine LeBeau Cerrè - married on September 21,1866

Their first daughter,Abigail Leontine Teresa Scofield
born July 13,1867

Their second daughter,Marie Helene,born October 4,1869

Leontine Scofield files for divorce on December 9,1881 charging that her husband had 'absented himself from his said wife and children, and had not been with them but abandoned them with the intention of not returning to them again'. The petition stated further that he 'has been guilty of gross neglect of duty, and has failed to support this plaintiff or her said children, or to contribute thereto, and has made no provision for them for food, clothing or a home, or in any manner performed his duty in the support of said family although he was able to do so'.

The court decree for Scofield's divorce which was finalized December 8, 1883 states:

"Now comes the plaintiff by her attorneys Tomlinson and Griffin and the defendant enters for appearance and files answer and makes no further appearance.

"And thereupon this cause came on for hearing upon the pleadings and testimony and was argued by counsel upon consideration whereof the Court does find that the defendant has been guilty of wilful abandonment of the plaintiff for more than one year prior to the commencement of this action.

"It is therefore adjudged and decreed that the custody nurture education and care of the said minor children Abigal and Helen be and the same is hereby given to the said plaintiff and the said defendant is hereby forever enjoined from interfering with or disturbing the said plaintiff in the custody care nurture and education of the said above name children until further order of this Court."

Wife #2 - Hettie Hall Van Wartz on March 11,1884

They had a son in 1888 - Noel Paul Scofield - died 1962
He consistently refused to give interviews about his father.

C.I. Scofield died July 24, 1921 leaving all he had to Hettie and Noel.

Joyce Meyer -

Facts -

She is one of the world's most recognized Bible teachers.

She is a #1 New York Times bestselling author.

She has authored nearly 100 books which have been translated into 100 languages.

More than 30 million copies of her books have been sold.

She owns several homes worth millions of dollars.

She travels in her own corporate private jet(a Gulfstream G-IV) worth over $10 million dollars.

Her husband drives a $107,000 silver-gray Mercedes sedan

Her $20 million dollar headquarters is furnished with $5.7 million worth of furniture, artwork, glassware, and the latest equipment and machinery which includes:

1) a $30,000 malachite round table
2) a $23,000 marble-topped antique commode
3) a $14,000 custom office bookcase
4) a $7,000 Stations of the Cross in Dresden porcelain
5) a $6,300 eagle sculpture on a pedestal
6) numerous paintings purchased for $1,000 to $4,000

And many other expensive items ”“ all paid for by the ministry.

In 2004 she took a salary reduction from the $900,000 per year she had been receiving from Joyce Meyer Ministries.

At that time her husband's salary was a mere $450,000

June 4, 1943 - Joyce Meyer is born

1961 - At age 18 she marries for the first time

Dec. 18, 1965 - At age 22 she gives birth to a son and names him David

September 1966 - Meyer divorces her first husband

Jan. 7, 1967 - she marries Dave Meyer(current husband)

April 5, 1968 - Daughter Laura Marie Meyer (now Laura Holtzmann) is born.

Oct. 8, 1969 - Daughter Sandra Ellen Meyer (now Sandra McCollom) is born.

Dec. 23, 1979 - Son Daniel B. Meyer is born.

"If you stay in your faith, you are going to get paid, I'm living now in my reward." - Joyce Meyer

This is very sad and near impossible to comment on. Obviously many are sowing into her kingdom.

by Notdarkyet

Got to admit, this is quality dirt digging by savannah.

Reading this thread seems to prove that what Christ himself spoke no longer applies to humanity, "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men." Matt 12.31

Unrepented sins can never be forgiven. The sin against the Holy Spirit in the context of that verse is precisely that type of sin . Sin that's so deeply embedded that its impossible to be repented of. I dont know if Joyce sinned deliberately when she divorced her husband to remarry. But the proximity of her 2nd marriage to her divorce indicated there was already an ongoing relationship with the present spouse prior to the divorce. If that's so that's a very a deliberate and willful sin. Willful sins cant be forgiven unless its confessed and fully repented with restitution.

Got to admit, this is quality dirt digging by savannah

Ha-hahahaha , This comment made me laugh...

Savannah: How many tears have you shed for these people?

The problem with all of these people is the complete absence of eternity and the Judgement Seat. Not saying that our motivation for living a radical sold out life comes out of fear. But if all of us had eternity on our eye balls consistently , would any of us be doing what we are doing right now? But we have to remember that God judges the heart not us.

It seems to me what the OP has in mind is to demonstrate how ministry has evolved into a business, totally apart from exhibiting the holiness of God in their own lives.

Many years ago "Christianity Today's" lead article featured Bill Hyles from "Willow Creek" Church or ministry - not sure what they called themselves. He was emphatic in that how one is justified in using business strategies in winning people. It appears to me Hyles took marketing to a level where many are using ministry to feather their own nest. As such these people's lives reflect the carnal world around them. All in the name of forgiveness the church is expected to look the other way. When caught it is "Opps! I need to go into counseling and after a spell I can resume my 'ministry'", or more appropriately, head of my business.

Moderns have been so charmed by affluence, relativism that we have lost the ability to discern - or maybe they never had the ability - who is God's and who is not. Most modern Christians embrace a moral code thinking they reflect the will of God but have no clue of holiness, walking with the LORD.

One of the tools the devil has used to lull people to sleep is music. Lucifer has done a fine job at this...
Very few 'Christian' musicians are Christians. They sing 'Christian' lyrics to deflect criticism but in the background they are just as wicked as their secular/carnal counterparts.

How much do we care? Why will we buy their merchandise? Why even listen to them? Consider what the Apostle Peter says: 2Peter 2:3: "And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

Yup, this problem troubled Believers ever since Pentecost.

My understanding...

Sandra Miller

Sandra,

Your understanding is spot on. You said,

"Moderns have been so charmed by affluence, relativism that we have lost the ability to discern - or maybe they never had the ability - who is God's and who is not".

When it comes to discernment as you mentioned, one of the dangers in turning a blind eye to sin in the camp is that the church runs the risk of being turned over to a spirit of delusion and a reprobate mind.

I truly believe the reason many professing Christians embrace the ability to not only divorce but remarry as well, whether one believes there are scriptural grounds or not, is due in part to the wide acceptance amongst the modern church. I have witnessed and heard people apply the exception clauses in cases where the real reason they were divorcing was because they did not love their mate any longer. They have also used excuses of saying they have grown apart, did not have anything in common. A current friend of my wife who has left her husband and children and carrying on with an old boyfriend has come up with every excuse under the sun to justify her infidelity and yet applies the exception clause as to a reason to divorce???

As a result of not holding up the biblical view of covenant marriage, divorce has been widely accepted and excused for really any reason. To compound this sin, the delusion is the distorted view and acceptance of same sex marriage now being embraced by active professing Christians.

Aside from the covenant marriage issue, what about looking at the excuses the modern church has when it comes to not honoring all the commandments of God?

1)The church allows for other gods apart from the One true God via Interfaith/Ecumenicalism. We are told not to judge. Even unregenerates are getting fed up with Islam being shoved down the worlds throat at every turn.

2)Many have created/fashioned a god in their own mind that fits their own lifestyle and beliefs. Many say, " I believe..." with no scriptural backing.

3)As for taking the Name of the Lord in vain. Many use Gods name carelessly or words that resemble Gods name. It has been discussed here before. Some things that come to mind are things like (Lord please forgive me) gosh darn it, oh my gosh, jeepers creepers, etc. We had a longer list on SI some time ago.

4)While I realize there are not a lot of churches I do not feel comfortable stepping in to. Many excuse any fellowship whatsoever with other believers. Many work jobs on Sunday.

5)What about honoring parents? I am amazed at those who go to church, are involved in ministry, will bend over backwards to help strangers, yet neglect honoring their parents.

These are just 5 of the commandments and only some of the things Christians excuse, so I trust you get the point.

You also mentioned why would we listen to the moderns? This is a great point and the bible says that If they speak not according to the word of God there is NO light in them. Paul talks about not withholding the WHOLE counsel of God but warned the people day and night with tears.

If we refuse to call sin, sin, and think we can turn the other way thinking that it is none of our business do we really love the brethren? What is the difference walking by a burning home with people sleeping inside and not doing everything in our power to wake them up and telling them to flee for their lives?

Did the sin of Achan affect only Achan or ALL of Israel? How did Joshua realize their was sin in the camp? because 36 men lost their lives and the other 2,964 were put to flight by the men of Ai and Joshua rent his clothes and fell to the ground and inquired of the Lord because he DISCERNED something was amiss.

Like you said sister, we are not renting our clothes and falling to the ground and we have been overrun by a spirit of delusion because we have refused to be faithful in the little that has been entrusted to us.

Again your statement about music could not be more correct and you also speak the truth about the musicians because I also know for a fact that the musicians that play in many of the big mega churches are hired professional musicians and not Christians at all. If that is not the blind leading the blind.

The conservative church I have been attending has of late introduced electronic drums in two recent services. Since being delivered from a demonic spirit of rock & roll I am very sensitive to it's presence and I believe that the spirit's foundation and influence is that of percussion. I know this makes drummers (I used to play them) furious, but in most cases within any church or worship service the drum is the predominate instrument.

If you look at the platform in a church, what is the one colorful instrument elevated in the center of the stage? I will go out on a limb, as this subject is a HOT one, and say I also believe that Lucifer is the god of percussion and the drum is his instrument of choice.

As a result, I cannot worship God when drums are present no more than I could stand naked on a busy street corner.

I agree that the church is going with the flow of the world and run no different than a business void of the Spirit of God.

Many of us are accused of being narrow minded, but in all honesty, I like narrow, as long as it is based on the word of God and not ourselves.

Can I close with this? When I was lost and was continually being exposed to the word of God in print, in deed, and in my conscience, it made me furious. I thought and said, How dare you judge me! Who do you think you are?!

On the outside, if one looked at me, they would conclude, He's not getting it, he cannot see the truth. However this could not be farther from the truth.

Inside, in my spirit, I KNEW, what I was reading, what I was seeing, and what I was sensing was TRUE. Unfortunately, I continued to kick against the pricks for many years, fighting, arguing, and excusing my beliefs, my ways. Yet I knew that I knew, that I knew, if I would have died in that state, I was going to hell. I hate gambling and like a fool I continued to gamble with my soul knowing full well if I stood before Him, I would be without excuse.

I know there are some who are having the same struggles I had, there is a battle going on within. While I would say God is patient, long suffering, gracious, and merciful I regret that I took Him for granted and tomorrow was not a guarantee.

As it was done unto me, I look to do unto others and that is this:

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So for those who may take many of the admonishments, corrections, and warnings posted here on SI as judging or condemning, I know for me, this is not the case at all and I know I am not alone.

God Bless,

Savannah: How many tears have you shed for these people?

The problem with all of these people is the complete absence of eternity and the Judgement Seat. Not saying that our motivation for living a radical sold out life comes out of fear. But if all of us had eternity on our eye balls consistently , would any of us be doing what we are doing right now? But we have to remember that God judges the heart not us.

I agree with lack of eternity samped in the eyes. It is something that I want to be stamped all the time in my eyes and look into things with different perception.

But regarding shedding tears I am not in agreement. These are not just people who are just a normal church goers but they act as spiritual leaders who leads many unsuspecting weaker brothers and sisters. Suppose you know a pedophile leading some children, would you not immediately try warning those children? Or will you keep shedding tears for the Pedo that he should repent?

There is nothing wrong in pointing out the mistakes of so called Christian leaders so that we can warn those unsuspecting believers who are deceived by their teachings.

Brother, you know you will be called legalistic and worse? Glad you do not care....

QUOTE:
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Inside, in my spirit, I KNEW, what I was reading, what I was seeing, and what I was sensing was TRUE. Unfortunately, I continued to kick against the pricks for many years, fighting, arguing, and excusing my beliefs, my ways. Yet I knew that I knew, that I knew,
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For a long time I have suspected this is why there is so much opposition to TRUTH. My experience at the Crises Pregnancy Center confirmed this as well. I did not tell my clients anything they did not know. This reality brings up another troubling question: why evangelize when people already know but refuse to yield? My conclusion to this question is that God want us to be a observer of his work in the lives of people.

Would love to hear your testimony of how God reached you and the subsequent yielding...You said a LOT in this post. Your testimony is gratifying - you are not alone.

Sandra Miller

How many others would be willing to openly admit their past sins? So many can recognize the sins of others, but not see their own or think their sins are not as bad as another, a very dangerous placed to be. I am not condoning divorce, I am not condoning marriage, and yes, many go on sinning because they are drawn into the world and the lust for worldly possessions. Most pastors I know, have stepped down from their Ministries after divorce. I wonder if Jesus approached Hal, if he would tell him the same thing he told the woman at the well, or would he condemn him on the internet in front of the world? It's amazing how sinners can condemn sinners, personally I want a non sinner condemning me, that would be Jesus Christ.

by MrBillPro
How many others would be willing to openly admit their past sins?

Also, I have heard, "they are making divorce the 2nd unforgivable sin." And totally believe it.

RE: ///.... If we cannot have mercy on those have remarried and use the law to measure then it will be measured back to us in other areas just the same. It is not about legal obeying of the law but a relationship with Jesus Christ through His precious blood that will preserve us.

God will call some remarried couples to separate. But what God has made clean let no man call unclean.///

Very Well said.

I find it interesting that those whom refuse to give any mercy, no matter the situation when it comes to remarriage always speak of covenant and vow , but Jesus defined marriage as 'twain becoming one flesh.' and He does not stop there but aludes to a Spirtual reality that with in the realm of the heart any one that you have lusted about you have to some extent become one flesh with them.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

I am deeply convinced of the Word that God hates divorce' and that remarriage outside of divorce due to adulltery is sin. I am also convinced by His Word that God forgives that sin in true repentance.

Experience shows us that the church in America has destroyed its witness because it embraces divorce and remarriage. It loves, in fact, what God hates. In our churches, divorce occurs with no restoration or forgiveness and remarriage occurs with no correction as to when it is improper. We cry "mercy" and rub across our lips to keep from saying "truth". We smile, support and endorse what God has condemned.

It is not that mercy and forgiveness are unavailable to the divorced and remarried. It is that no one thinks repentance is necessary.