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Faith is a FREE GIFT to you totally initiated by God without out any of your doing at all!

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sermonindex

From Of Justification by Faith and Works BY William Law

"[Just-15] Churchman. What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does not scripture say, "it is God who worketh in us, both to will, and to do?" Now if your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God's gift, and power within you; then a Christian's works may be called good and saving, or such as work out his salvation, because they are all wrought in God, and by his power working in him. But now, suppose one man to rely on his own faith, and another to rely upon his own works, they then are both of them carnally minded, and the faith of the one, and the works of the other, are equally the same worthless, filthy rags. On the other hand, do but (as plain scripture requires you) ascribe good works of the same original, and divine power, as a right faith must be ascribed to, and then faith and works are equally one power of God to salvation, because equally the same saving, redeeming, and sanctifying work of God in our souls.”

Most people realize that they can never be justified by the law or by works but then make efforts to obtain faith by their own efforts and right thinking. Now this is still filthy rags. If you are attempting to rely on your faith in Christ then you are as wrong as the person who relies on his works because you have made faith a work of your own efforts and abilities.

You must see that faith is a FREE GIFT and is a GIFT to you totally initiated by God without out any of your doing at all!!!

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TMK

Then why do NT writers (and Jesus) tell people to have faith?

It seems obvious that faith is something we have to exercise.

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Sidewalk

"Free gift" has been a misrepresentation of the gospel for a long time, containing a partial truth.

In the sense that the mercy of God cannot be demanded as payment for work performed- true. But God is not Santa Clause, He is the author of a covenant, and two must comply with the terms.

He offers it freely, but it will cost you your life. My repenting and believing is as nothing compared to the heavy lifting done on His part, but without it He cannot give me the precious gift.

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Sidewalk

Unable to remove repeated post frame...?

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dolfan

I blame Joseph Prince for a lot of confusion mongering on faith.

Why is not James enough. Faith without works is dead. Show me your faith, and I will show you works, he says. Why does he say it? "Faith without works is dead."

James never said "faith by works". He said, essentially, "works as faith". Paul said, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." What we do is an outworking of who we are. In Christ, we are made and being made like Him. So, what do our lives look like? Jesus. Our outworking lives, visible in what we do, prove who we are--Christ's or our own. Our fruit proves the kind of tree we are. We are "Jesus trees" producing His kind of fruit.

That is what faith does.

If faith is not doing this in my life, I do not have faith. If I do not have faith, I am not His. Simply put, faith is known by works. But for what I do, my own faith is an illusion, a construct of my own thinking and not even a work of the Spirit. Faith works.

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sermonindex

True faith is supplied to us in the Gospel message.

Grace gives us the ability to respond to what God has already done.

If we rely on our own ability and efforts to believe or even to will to have faith we remain in our filthy rags of works.

We do not have a part to play in the New Covenant. This Covenant was only made concerning us and we are just participants in it.

The gospel does not demand faith ... it supplies faith.

The gospel does not demand love ... it supplies love.

The gospel does not demand repentance ... it supplies repentance.

The gospel does not demand surrender ... it supplies surrender.

The gospel does not demand obedience ... it supplies obedience.

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dolfan

Grace is, indeed, God's gift to us and it enables us to obey Him. Obedience is what you described as our "respon[se] to what God has already done." I affirm that fully. Even my self willed obedience is self willed. Nothing good dwells in my flesh. I am always 100% tethered, bound to the gospel. The gospel did not, whale like, spit me out on the shores of promise for me to walk on as I see fit; the gospel IS the power of God unto my ongoing salvation and my sanctification. Grace is the gift of God that bears on its wings, to me, those abilities in Christ that now abide in Him in me. Christ in me, the hope of glory. The only hope. One step without Him is a walk into perdition. I need Him every second.

I supply nothing. What do I have that I did not receive? My life is hidden with Christ in God, who lavishes on me His treasures, spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. I testify that if not for God's supply of anything good, true, just, pure, lovely, virtuous, praiseworthy, all of my thoughts would only be corrupt continually.

I do nothing and I am nothing in myself. In Christ, I can do all things. In fact, all I do that is any good at all is in Christ and by Him. To Him be glory and honor forever.

I thank the Lord that He enables, empowers and intends for me to do what pleases Him and to avoid doing what displeases Him. What hope would I have otherwise? Oh, Lord I am nothing, and You are my all in all. Thank You, Father, for foreordaining good works for those whom You adopt to do them. If not for Your kind supply of works to do, we would be darkened concerning You. We would be without hope in the world. We would have no means here by which You would transform us from who we are and into the likeness of Your Son, Jesus.

God is truly, truly good.

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sermonindex

Dolfan,

I agree 100% with you.

I can count on His Love, Faithfulness and Goodness towards me.

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sermonindex

Gal. 2:19-21 message

19 What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. 20 Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not going to go back on that. Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily.

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sermonindex

"Faith doesn't demand, it supplies." Such a beautiful illustration. I'm saving that for future reference.

It seems everyone's perspective is enriching. I love this. We come from different backgrounds and see things differently but it (everyone's perspective) all seems fruitful. Praise Jesus.

Recently, in my study, I learned some of the Jewish perspective of faith. Here is the excerpt from "New light on the difficult words of Jesus" by David Bivin:

"Emunah (faith, belief) is closely related to spiritual weakness. Biblical faith is not so much belief in someone or something as persistence. It is "hanging in there" in spite of the circumstances. But faith is also the recognition of our dependance of God."

He further reaffirms this 'hanging in there' that is faith. By speaking of Jacob at Penial, terrified of what his brothers were going to do but goes to meet God and is weakened further. Yet God is strong.

Again, with the widows, generally a hopeless lifestyle back then. Their weakness, if they depended in God, was His strength.

Finally, elaborates with Jesus. 2 Cor. 13:4. 'He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by God's power'.

Let's 'hang in there' by leaning on God. His strength is perfect in our weakness.

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Oracio

So here's my two cents on this millionth Calvinism vs Arminianism thread :)

I'm leaning toward God being sovereign in bestowing His free grace and saving faith on underserving sinners, while simultaneously holding humanity responsible for their sins and for rejection the gospel call and offer. If you ask me how those two things are reconciled I do not have an answer. It is a mystery beyond my finite comprehension.

God's Word is clear that God COMMANDS all people to repent (Mark 6:12; Luke 13:5; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30) and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15; Acts 16:31).

And God's Word is also clear that salvation (which includes regeneration) is a gift of God's grace and not something we can earn or produce in any way shape or form.

It is also clear that we "receive" Christ when we are saved(John 1:12).

So is our saving faith/belief in Christ something given to us and produced within us by God, completely apart from us, or do we exercise that saving faith on our own, or is it both God and man playing a part? I cannot say for sure between the first and third option but I would not go for the second one. It just seems evident to me from scripture that even if we can exercise saving faith on our own, God must help us to believe because we are too weak in and of ourselves to fully believe unto salvation. I'm reminded of the man who cried out, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief."-Mark 9:24.

I think that when we sincerely endeavor to embrace the whole counsel of God's Word we can't go wrong. Many problems lie in emphasizing to an extreme one truth above another and pitting one truth against another when Scripture teaches both.

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InTheLight

Churchman went on to say...

[Just-56] Again, what difference is there between the old man and his deeds, which we are to put off, and the new man in Christ, that is to be put on, if he has no deeds, but what are maimed, wormeaten things? But hear now what Christ saith of the necessity, the excellency, and efficacy of Christian good works, in the following words, "Whosoever heareth my sayings and DOETH them, is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock. And when the floods arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded upon a rock." Here you see the excellence, the power and efficacy of Christian good works, compared by our Lord to the strength and firmness of a house built upon a rock, which floods and tempests cannot overthrow. How could he more fully show you, that they are the beginning, the continual strength and support of the divine life, than by comparing them to a rock on which a house begins, and from which it hath all its power of standing against all floods and tempests? How could he better show you, that this rock of good works, all proceeding from his power within us, is that very rock, on which he builds a church, against which the gates of hell shall never prevail? On the other hand, call anything salvation but Christian works, and then you have Christ's word for it, that you are "like the man that without a foundation built his house upon the sand, against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and great was the fall of it." Hear again what our Lord saith of Christian works, "A good man," saith he, "out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good"; but how could this possibly be, if Christian works could be no better than maimed, worm-eaten things? And here by the by, let me desire you well to observe, whence it is, that the good man bringeth forth good things. Not as your orator tells you, because Christ's goodness, or righteousness is outwardly imputed to him, and so made his. No, truth itself tells you the direct contrary, that it proceeds from the good treasure of his heart, and therefore is a goodness born within him. Now, whence has he this good treasure of his heart, and what is it? It is that treasure of a divine life, or nature, which Adam had at first, and to which he died, and which by the free grace and mercy of God, was secured to him and all his posterity, as a seed of the woman, a preserved remains, or power of his first divine nature. Christ in Adam, was his first glory and perfection of life; Christ remaining in fallen Adam, as a preserved seed of his first divine nature, is the only ground and foundation, of his being able to be made again in Christ a new creature. This divine seed of the woman, is so much of Christ remaining in him; and thence it is, that Christ alone hath power to be the mediator and redeemer of man, because that which is to be raised from death into life in us, is nothing else but the incorruptible seed of himself in us. This, sir, is that good treasure of the heart, out of which the good man bringeth forth good things, and is in itself nothing more or less, than a seed of Adam's first divine life within us, preserved by God's never-ceasing love towards man, as his covenant of grace and redemption within us, which seed, as it comes through the mediation of Christ to a new power of life in us, causes all those different sensibilities, called humility, penitence, fear, prayer, faith, hope, and earnest seeking after God.

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TMK

"If you ask me how they are reconciled I do not have an answer. It is a mystery beyond my finite comprehension."

But another much more simpler answer is that they cannot be reconciled and therefore it cannot be true. It is far too easy to say it is beyond comprehension.

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Oracio

If we rely on our own ability and efforts to believe or even to will to have faith we remain in our filthy rags of works.

If what is meant is that we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved, I completely agree. But if what is meant is that those who believe in man's free will in salvation are not saved, I completely disagree. There have been and are godly, saved, Spirit-filled men and women on both sides of this debate.

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sermonindex

We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved.

This was not a Calvinism vs Arminianism thread.

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Sidewalk

"We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved."

Nope. Too weak. Churches are filled with these people, once they are out in public they are indistinguishable from the sinners around them. They are insurance policy holders, content with the paperwork they believe will show up on their behalf at the judgement. They couldn't even find the book of James in the bible, much less a reason to read it.

They have done nothing to build within themselves substance that assures their salvation.

Assurance of standing with God is essential for a genuine Christian. In Ephesians 1:13 Paul speaks of being sealed by the Holy Spirit, an anchor that holds him, that gives him the freedom to live and learn, to make mistakes and recover, to recognize the net when he falls, to center on the cross when temptation is overwhelming, to keep him in perfect peace when the questions are too hard.

I'm still stuck on the covenant, an agreement between two parties with performance requirements on both sides. I believe God desperately wants to save the soul of every man, but the grim reality is that so many- most I would venture- are lost.

All because the covenant is offered fully and freely from the One who paid so dearly to make so easy for even the weakest of men to easily receive it- and they won't.

They want it their own way. The never ending product of Adam's original choice in the garden.

God has the right to see in me evidence of the regeneration He has purchased, doe He not?

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Oracio

We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved.

This was not a Calvinism vs Arminianism thread.


Glad we agree! The reason I said this was another Cal vs Arm thread is because Calvinists say faith is solely a gift of God therefore man cannot exercise saving faith in Christ by his own free will, and Arminians say man has a free will and is able to exercise faith in Christ of his own free will.

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Oracio

I understand the concern pertaining to many who are under a false assurance and have a "dead faith without works". That is a valid concern and we must guard against that deception. The book of James does indeed address and warn of that.

On the other hand, there is also a valid concern pertaining to many out there who rely on their own self-effort or self-righteousness and fall into a works-based trap and legalism. We must also guard against adding human effort or works or legalism to the gospel. Paul devotes the letter to the Galatians and many other portions of the NT to warning of that danger.

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Sree

Everything in our life is Gift of God. Paul asks Corinthians 'what do you have that you have not received?'. Even our every breath, health, body are God's gift. We did not deserve it.

Say for example if we take 2 babies born with good health. One of them grows as a smoker and dies at the age of 40 due to lung cancer, while another lives till 80 due to good diet and exercise and clean habits. Now can the first person who lived as smoker say that God only gifted health to live till 40? Is he not responsible for losing what was given to him as a gift? So to say that those who receive something as gift has no responsibility is absolutely stupid argument.

Bible says Jesus is author of our faith. Which means he writes faith into us. But he can write it only depending on the space I give him. If I did not open my heart for him then where is the space to write? Will Jesus forcably snatch my heart and write his faith? If so then why does he call his disciples as men of less faith? The discples should then respond, you have written only little faith in me that is why I have little faith. The man who was father of demon possed boy cried out to Jesus to 'Increase his faith'. It is only God who gives and can increase it. But we need to seek knowing our lack of faith in different circumstances.

All the things in our Christian life starting from faith till baptism of Holy Spirit are given by God. But it can happen only to the measure of how much we open to him. That is why certain believers have faith to move mountains but others lack faith to eat certain food that God himself as cleansed. Both should give credit to God for the faith they have. There is nothing to boast.

That is why it is very important for us to not take the human part out of salvation. There is NO SCRIPTURE in Bible that will support the following assumption.


We do not have a part to play in the New Covenant. This Covenant was only made concerning us and we are just participants in it.

Whenever I question TUC on such theology he will post so many scripture that does not say anything about ZERO INVOLVMENT from MAN. If this is the true Gospel, why is there no clear verse in NT that says you can do nothing to lose your salvation, God just forces you into salvation.

Many posters here look into all the good things in the original post like 'do not trust on your own work' etc and then agree on whole thing. It is like eating a soup ignoring a dead lizard floating on it. If any of the part of the post is unscriptural then it is a poison. Barians would reject Paul straight away if he had preached this as Gospel. Because there is no scriptural proof.

I always compare Salvation to fire fighters saving men caught in a house on fire. Imagine if the fighters are on roof trying to look for those caught in fire. Those who shout for help will be seen and a rope will be dropped to rescue them from fire. Now to be lifted up I need to keep holding the rope. Also the proof of being lifted up is fire will not consume me or will not burn me continuously. In this example Fire is our sin, God is lifting us through Jesus and Holy Spirit. Now if I am being saved then sin will have no dominion on me.

If a person calls for help and gets the rope. But still continues to burn on fire then it means either he has not really called for help or he got the help as he once called for but is no longer holding the rope. So it is equally important to hold the rope to be lifted up. Now when I see someone buring in fire, I ask him to call for help and keep holding the rope as I hold so that you can be lifted up as well. If I do not tell that holding part then I am only preaching half the truth that cannot save him from fire.

It is very important to preach the human side to be saved. That is why Paul who wrote that eternal life is free gift from God, also wrote timothy to take hold of Eternal life. If we talk only about gift but not about taking hold then we are only deceiving people.

Now when I am finally lifted out of the house, will I get any credit for holding the rope? No the firefighter will get all the glory for saving my life. Same way God will receive all the glory for our salvation. There is no glory needed for holding what he has given. But it has to be held to prevent loss!

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wijnand

"True faith"
"Sovereign God"
"Free will"
"Free grace"

Are all terms used much these days, but I can't find them in scripture. I would try to use biblical terms, and attach your 'theology' on those biblical terms.

"What must I do to be saved?" -> Repent, Believe(, Be baptised). No matter if you are more calvinistic or arminian, both should agree with this one.

"Can we save ourselves?" -> No, our sins were seperating us from God. Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected so that He could make peace between us and God, and free us from our sins. This is from God, salvation is from God in Christ Jesus. So now, repent of your sins, believe on Him, cry out to Him and you shall be saved.

Etc.

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TMK

What does the true Gospel require of us? The biblical answer begins with repentance, faith, baptism and continued, loyal obedience to Christ. But identifying what the Gospel requires of us is not the same thing as saying what the true Gospel actually is. This list of duties correctly identifies the proper response to the Gospel””not the Gospel itself.

The Gospel is a particular message of good tidings, heralded through Christ and the apostles (but only rarely by modern evangelists). It is called "the Gospel of the Kingdom" (e.g., Matt.4:23; 9:35; 24:14), because it is the proclamation of the presence of another Kingdom and another King””one Jesus (Luke 2:10-11; Isa.52:7; Acts 17:7; 20:25). This entire proclamation can be summarized by the original Christian confession: "Jesus is Lord [i.e., King]." This is what one must confess, in order to be saved (Rom.10:9). It is because He is the King that we must repent (of our former neglect of His lordship), trust Him, and be baptized into His alternative, royal society. Obedience is the obvious response to Lordship:

"Why do you call me 'Lord,' 'Lord,' and you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience. One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.

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InTheLight

Churchman went on further to say;

[Just-100] The works of man, do no more towards making Christ to be the all-sufficient savior of the world, than towards making him to be God and man; but to have salvation from this free-given, perfect savior, all is requisite, all is to be worked, labored, and done, which he commands us to have, and do, and be. Therefore saith St. Paul of this perfect savior, "that he is the author of salvation (N.B.) to all that obey him." Here you see what an error it is, to speak of savior and salvation, as one and the same thing, equally free and independent on man's works. The perfect, all-sufficient savior, is the free gift of God, that all men might be saved: but salvation is no free gift, but stands in the utmost contrariety to it; it is to be purchased. A savior you cannot, you need not buy, he is already given you without price and without money; but all the salvation that you can have, must be bought of this savior, there is nothing gratis here. But what are you to give for it? All that you have from fallen Adam, all that the world, the flesh, and the devil have treasured up in you; nay, houses, lands, fathers, mothers, brethren, &c., are all to be forsaken, they must all of them lose that place and power, that they had in you, or you have no salvation, though you never wanted a free-given savior.

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Sidewalk

Oh to be troubled by a culture with thousands of people doing good works in hope of winning a place in the Kingdom!

Our conversation here would be as the gibberish of a foreign tongue to this culture, obsessed with wanton pursuits of pleasure and revenge, status and wealth, drugs and death. Those who believe in values like ours are mocked and dismissed, as if we were the deviants of society!

Such a reality is a strong call to us to do the works of the Kingdom, beginning with actually believing in the unmerited grace of God, and on into binding up wounds and calling sin by its real name. ISIS is being praised, race baiting celebrities are using lies to foment anarchy, government officials are bankrupting whole countries- this could be a long list and it all leads to broken lives. We need to be seen as the antidote to all this, and it is by our righteous works that we will represent God's grace to our world.

"Go ye into all the world, teaching men to observe all things which I have commanded."

Hmmmmm. Sounds like work to be done...

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Oracio

I think it's important for us to keep in mind here what separates biblical Christianity from the kingdom of the cults and false religions. For example, JWs, Mormons and Catholics emphasize doing certain works to earn or gain acceptance by God based on those works mixed with their supposed faith. But the biblical gospel says it's not faith plus works that saves us or keeps us saved, but rather faith plus nothing equals salvation. Faith alone is clearly taught as the grounds of our salvation throughout the Bible. That's what the reformation was largely about. Works follow after we are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. And works are an evidence of the genuineness of our faith.

Our faith must work through love-Gal.5:6, that is, through God's love shed abroad in our hearts whereby we cry out Abba Father. We love Him because He first loved us. One important and crucial element must be gratitude as the motive for doing good works, not merely fear of punishment or fear of losing one's salvation. Fear does play a part in our sanctification but it cannot be just fear or else we are in danger of trying to serve a God we do not really love or really have faith in.

We are to rest in the free, unmerited grace of God by faith. Again, we do not rely on our works or performance to save us or keep us in the faith. We rely solely on Jesus Christ and what He has done and accomplished for us through the cross. When we repent and trust Christ we receive a foreign/alien righteousness from God by faith, a righteousness that we could never muster up on our own-Philippians 3:8-9. Our sins are imputed to Christ's account-1Pet.3:18; 2Cor.5:21, and His righteousness is imputed to our account. It's what's considered by many as the great exchange of justification by faith. Like the old hymn says, "My sin””oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!””My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more, Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!"

Yes, we must work while it is still day. But if we rely on our works to save us or keep us saved we will not enter into the rest we are to have in Christ and instead will fall into a trap of the enemy.

Again, I fear that many of us (professing Christians) rely too much on the feeble web of our own performance. I think it's something we all tend to struggle with at times even as born again believers because in our corrupt nature there is a tendency to be Pharisaic or legalistic.

I want to be like Paul who was quick to point out that anything good in him and any good works done by him were the direct result of God's grace at work in and through him-1Cor.15:10.

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sermonindex

"I think it's important for us to keep in mind here what separates biblical Christianity from the kingdom of the cults and false religions... But the biblical gospel says it's not faith plus works that saves us or keeps us saved, but rather faith plus nothing equals salvation."

I'd say the biblical gospel is that 'they will know we are Christians by our love', not by our beliefs. I'm reminded 'even the demons believe'. And let's not stop at belief. Rejoice in your belief but they aren't separate.

Scripture is clear that we will know a tree by it's fruits but it's also starts with a seed.

Seeds get planted all the time but how many grow? Sure the seed has everything it needs to become a tree but the seed is a seed. The tree and it's fruit is the result.

Divorcing the two, isn't what Jesus taught. This discussion was originally about faith and grace being a gift, yet producing something.

Let's not divide the baby. This isn't an 'either/or' discussion. Nor it is a 'us or them' discussion.

If you are focusing on the seed, that is faith/grace, rejoice. If you are focusing on the tree and it's fruit, rejoice. But don't divide the two, as that is destructive. If I remove a seed from the ground and frame it, as I would a picture, there would be no tree and fruit to live off of. Also, if I were to look at a tree and it's fruit but speak less of it's seeds, I destroy the circle of life within tree.

Let's bind together. Not divide.

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Oracio

I'd say the biblical gospel is that 'they will know we are Christians by our love', not by our beliefs. I'm reminded 'even the demons believe'. And let's not stop at belief. Rejoice in your belief but they aren't separate.

We are not saved by our love for one another. The gospel is not "Love one another and you will be saved" but rather believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Love for one another is indeed a fruit of our salvation, but God's grace and our faith in Christ's finished work are the root or foundation. Many put the cart before the horse in this regard and err greatly. This is not just a matter of semantics or non-essentials but is at the heart of the gospel message and therefore so vital.

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Sidewalk

I could not lay this out more clearly than Oracio has.

Those of us who are married know what it is like to do something for our spouse, anticipating that they will experience pleasure, and that will give us pleasure because of our connection- we share the joy.

So it is with the Father when the Spirit lives inside. His pleasure is our desire, His desire is our pleasure, and around again. It is not about earning salvation or anything else at this point, it is about being that for which we were intended in the first place.

It is getting on board with the Father and the Son- "I always do that which pleases the Father," and "This is My beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased!"

Welcome to the best circle there is!

O
Oracio

Amen Sidewalk.

I don't like to give the impression that I promote a cheap grace easy-believism "gospel" message of no repentance and no cost on our part. But in this thread I felt led to emphasize the side of grace and faith as the grounds of our justification.

Yesterday when I was doing a little research on this topic of saving faith I came across this quote from a poster on another forum and thought it was so good that I thought I'd share it here. In reference to the kind of gospel message we are to preach he wrote, "it's not about simply getting them to believe a simple truth and, whew, it's all done, I can breathe and rest in things now. It's not making a decision, then resting on that laurel. It is a life of discipleship, continuing to rest in Christ's righteousness, and that alone. Continuing to mortify sin, eschewing evil, loving that which is righteous. Continuing to realize our great ineptitude of rightly keeping God's Law and, thus, being shut up to faith in Christ all over again. And so goes the cycle, and the life of a disciple, always trusting in Christ, always endeavoring unto new obedience, always knowing that it is Christ's work alone that grants him merit before God, etc."

On another note, respectfully, I would not recommend saying to unsaved people what is stated as the title of this thread. For believers to discuss these things is fine but saying to an unsaved person that man has no part to play in believing will only confuse them all the more. Not only that but the statement is not completely accurate even if it's true that God grants saving faith apart from man's effort. Let me explain. Even if God grants to His elect, freely by His sovereign grace, the ability to believe unto salvation, the elect still are the ones that actually do the believing. God does not believe for us. We believe unto salvation. So we do indeed play a part regardless of what side of this debate we are on.

S
sermonindex

How can people, in this thread, say basically what I'm saying in this thread (which it's both), then to say 'no...'. I simply don't understand how. This is perplexing to me.

O
Oracio

How can people, in this thread, say basically what I'm saying in this thread (which it's both), then to say 'no...'. I simply don't understand how. This is perplexing to me.

In case you had me in mind I'll try to explain. At first I was trying to reason that when it comes to God's sovereignty in salvation and man's responsibility, the Bible seems to teach both and therefore we should be careful not to emphasize one of those above the other.

But then the thread started going into the issue of faith and works and how we are saved or justified in God's sight. That's when I got concerned that some here may be basing their acceptance with God not only on faith in Christ but also on their works or performance or obedience. At that point I tried pointing out that it's not faith plus works that justifies us but rather faith alone in Christ alone, and that works come after faith and justification and are part of our sanctification.

There is a huge difference between one who is doing good works from a right motive and from a right foundation of justification by faith alone in Christ alone, and one who is trying to serve and please God solely out of fear of punishment or losing salvation. One has a blessed assurance of salvation (which God wants for all His children), and the other is in bondage and needs to be set free from trying to keep the law as a means of justification.

T
TMK

"Even if God grants to His elect, freely by His sovereign grace, the ability to believe unto salvation, the elect still are the ones that actually do the believing. God does not believe for us. We believe unto salvation. So we do indeed play a part regardless of what side of this debate we are on."

I just have to point out that statements like this are nonsensical. No offense, of course, because many great Chrsitians throughout history have said similar things.

S
sermonindex

Saints,

As per the community rules: "We have found that discussions pertaining to politics, conspiracy theories, calvinism/arminianism and others just produce strife and not the fruits of the Spirit so we ask saints not to start these discussion threads on SermonIndex."

So we want to encourage brothers and sisters here not to debate this topic. It really is a mystery that we will never be able to figure out God, the fullness of salvation is a glorious thing that we will never fully understand. God's mercy, grace and love are unsearchable.

Many brethren do not see it wrong to exercise faith in the Lord as well as believe Jesus died for all men. There are many scriptures that give this viewpoint. There are many scriptures that give the view that God always first convicts, leads and gives grace before anyone can believe. I fully agree with that also, both are right.

What everyone can agree on and is true is that the Gospel is about a person: Jesus Christ and that He died in our place.

2 Corinthians 5:15 - And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

we are locking this thread and ask saints do not continue to post on this same topic that has been discussed 100's of times in the past on the forums. We ask saints simply research on their own but more importantly follow the Lord in relationship daily, hearing His voice and not simply knowing things about Him.

this thread is locked.

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