1) he did not go to public places and preach to uninterested parties
2) he did not threaten with hell
3) he did not recite the 10 commandments
4) he did not insult sinners or confront them publically about their sin (other than the self-righteous Pharisees)
G'day Todd,
I have to disagree with a few of them.
1. When He (Jesus) went into Galilee, He was openly proclaiming to the people weather they were interested or not "The time has come,” he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”Mark 1:15
2. I'll just give a few off the top of my head - Mark 9:43-48 says, If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
"‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
Matthew 5:22, But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 8:12, But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 10:28, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
3. Mark 10:18-19, Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good””except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.
4.He said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go now and leave your life of sin." John 8:11. And He said to the man healed at the pool "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." John 5:14. Both were in public and people heard what He said, if only His disciples.
Blessings Steve
In regards to #1, the parallel in Mt 4:23, he was proclaiming this in the synagogues.
In regards to #2, in those cases the people came to hear him (this was in the sermon on the mount). On other occasions he mentioned hell privately to his disciples.
in regards to #3, it clearly states that the rich young ruler came running to Jesus, not vice versa.
In regard to #4, this was not evangelizing. he told her this privately.
The "Foolishness of Preaching" is a way to itemize sin, proclaim the Godly alternative, and warn of consequences. Doing this publically is a way for the Holy Spirit to reach those with an ear to hear, and assure those who reject the message that they have been condemned- all without personally embarrassing any individual. Seems to me that Jesus did this very publically both in the streets and the houses of worship.
Jesus was not a street preacher as we understand that term. He either taught in the synagogue where people expected to hear teaching or the masses came to him with the intent to hear what he had to say. He obviously also spoke privately with his disciples and other persons (the Samaritan woman; the woman caught in adultery).
Then you have the example of Peter after Pentecost who challenged one and all...
Sandra
But the crowd was seeking an explanation of what they were seeing and hearing.
TMK are you simply saying that just setting up a place in the public byways and loudly proclaiming the gospel or quietly handing out tracts is not a NT practice?
Pretty much!!
Some people might bring up John the B but he actually was out in the wilderness and people went to him.
Todd, regarding public preaching of Jesus, just from remembrance I can think of quite a lot of examples where he did this. The temple cout was the place of general meeting and comerce for multitudes of people, the field preaching on the hills around Galilee, on boats on the shore of the lake so many could hear. In houses open to the general public, etc, etc. You cannot equate exactly streets as there were not really streets where folk would congregate like today, but He certainly did the equivalent in that He went where the people were. Social life was different then to today, so you have to take that into account. The priciple was He went out to where the people were.
I think all your 4 points have already been countered and shown to be incorrect. Respectfully, you should go back and re-look at the scriptures again that have been given.
1. When He (Jesus) went into Galilee, He was openly proclaiming to the people weather they were interested or not "The time has come,” he said. "The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”Mark 1:152. I'll just give a few off the top of my head - Mark 9:43-48 says, If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
"‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’Matthew 5:22, But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 8:12, But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 10:28, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
3. Mark 10:18-19, Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good””except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.
4.He said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go now and leave your life of sin." John 8:11. And He said to the man healed at the pool "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." John 5:14. Both were in public and people heard what He said, if only His disciples.
Blessings Steve
It would also take me a while to compile all the testimonies I've either personally seen or heard of people getting either saved or heavily convicted by the Holy Spirit through militant, frontline, street evangelism.
Heydave-- in every case the people flocked to Jesus. I am not saying he taught in private. I am saying that the people went to him, meaning they wanted to listen.
The same is true for the apostles.
I think you need to take a closer look at the scriptures.
Neither Jesus nor the apostles were "militant evangelists."
We are to be militant about many things in our Christian walk, including evangelism. Are you not aware of the scriptures that speak of us being soldiers in a war?
This vid came to mind on the kind of timid "jesus" many are preaching today:
Todd, what do you mean by 'militant evangelism'? It's not a term I am familiar with. If you mean forcing people to listen against their will, like in preaching at them in an enclosed situation where they can't get away, then I agree (I have heard of some of that) it is wrong.
I may be wrong, but I think you may have a specifc issue in mind that concerns you, but you are generalising by making statements about Jesus and the scriptures in a way that is causing folk like me to disagree with your stance, because it is not correct. It may be better for you to say exactly what your beef really is. You may then find that we may agree in some with you.
I did not mean to offend you by saying you need to go back and read the scriptures. It's just sometimes we get an idea in our heads and it is not what is actually recorded.
John makes mention more than once that he was the disciple that Jesus loved. I believe he came to that conclusion because the love that shone forth from Jesus was absolutely compelling. John, and obviously others, could feel the radiation of His love whenever they were near, and His voice made the love explode in the room. When He was there, they came to listen like thirsty sheep come to clear cool water.
I believe the secret of His evangelism was that love, the love of the Father emanating from the Son. While we quibble about methods, He just rested in the essence of love and the Spirit drew them in. The Pharisees, at least most of them, loved other things and scorned the genuine love standing before them. People like that still do, but like some of the Pharisees a few make that 180 turn and fall at His feet.
Our most essential need, by the Father's design, is to be loved. Humble common people get that, and hear Him gladly.
Maybe our evangelism would work better if we actually loved the people we're preaching at? Just a thought...
Oracio wrote:
We are to be militant about many things in our Christian walk, including evangelism. Are you not aware of the scriptures that speak of us being soldiers in a war?
///
Militant definition:
combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause, and typically favoring extreme, violent, or confrontational methods.
"a militant nationalist"
synonyms:\taggressive, violent, belligerent, bellicose, vigorous, forceful, active, fierce, combative, pugnacious;
///
I don't see anything in the scripture that supports a militant gospel.
Lisa
TMK wrote:
1) he did not go to public places and preach to uninterested parties2) he did not threaten with hell
3) he did not recite the 10 commandments
4) he did not insult sinners or confront them publically about their sin (other than the self-righteous Pharisees)
God bless,
Lisa
Hi Dave-- I don't really have a beef per se and I am certainly not against evangelism.
Time may be short and I think we need to figure out how to reach the most people in the quickest and most effective way.
You know the old adage of you can't do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
I don't have a a great answer as to what to do other than what Jesus did. So what Lisa mentions is a great place to start.
If street preachers started healing people they would get better results, for sure. Maybe it's time to start believing for such things. After all that is how Jesus started revivals.
What I mean by militant evangelism is being proactive in sharing our faith; being on the offensive mode as opposed to being apathetic and passive, cowering at the thought of actively evangelizing the lost; and coming up with a million and one excuses for not caring about sharing our faith with the lost. What I mean by frontline street evangelism is going to where the lost congregate and reaching out to them with the life-saving message of the gospel, as opposed to simply waiting for them to come to us or waiting to build a relationship over a long period of time before feeling we have earned the right to share the gospel, which is completely unbiblical.
The famous missionary C.T. Studd said, "Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell; I want to run a rescue shop, within a yard of hell.”
A few scriptures on being a soldier of Jesus Christ in the army of God:
2 Timothy - 2:3-4
"You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier."
2 Corinthians 10:3-6
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled."
Ephesians 6:10-20
"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints-- 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak."
Luke 10:17-20
"Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." 18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."
3) he did not recite the 10 commandments
Matthew 19:16-26
Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
TMK, will you not at least recant that point after being shown clearly that it's not true?
The Apostle Paul followed Jesus example of bold, frontline gospel outreach to the lost. His face was set like flint as he sought to spread the gospel everywhere he went. We read of him many times going to public places such as the market places where crowds were found in order to preach the gospel to complete strangers. He did not wait long to build relationships with people before preaching the gospel to them. That's why he got into so much trouble in so many places and riots were started. Even while imprisoned he did not hesitate to share the good news with everyone there and many got converted through his bold witness. May we follow his example which was patterned after our Lord Jesus.
During the time of the First Great Awakening there was much open air preaching going on and many were being converted and discipled. John Wesley trained many preachers who rode on horseback preaching the gospel in the open air from town to town. They were called circuit riders. These anointed preachers did not go around performing healing miracles everywhere they went preaching. Their emphasis was the gospel and souls being saved.
William Booth and the origins of the Salvation Army also comes to mind. They preached on the streets and many were converted and discipled and trained to be frontline gospel soldiers through their ministry.
Would to God that there would be another movement in which God's people are revived and on fire to get the gospel out while there is opportunity.
Okay, one more post here and I'm out for the night :)
Several years ago I listened to this message and I remember it made a positive impact on me, so I thought I'd share it here in case anyone might be interested:
Militant Evangelism by Ray Comfort
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11500&commentView=itemComments
A word of caution regarding the thinking that Jesus had a message that was warmly received and that His evangelism won the multitudes over to Him. Not so!
Consider that it was not just the Pharisees that were offended at what He taught, but most people were, even those who claimed to be His disciples, see John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." This was because they found His preaching too hard.
At the very end Jesus was only left with the 12 (well 11 actually) and even they dispersed for a season! Jesus actually made it hard for folk, not easy. Yes they were attracted at first by miracles and being fed, but He rebuked them for this shallowness. When he laid the word on the line most did not want it.
Let us not think we have to be 'successful' in our evangelism. We have to Faithful to the truth. Trying to be successful leads into all sorts of error and compromise.
Would you rebuke Wesley and Whitfield for preaching in the streets! They won multitudes into the kingdom, but they also faced much opposition and upset a great many people. The gospel of the cross is an offense and stumbling block to many. Don't try and make it easy and thereby strip away the power of the gospel, which produces true salvation.
quote:
"TMK, will you not at least recant that point after being shown clearly that it's not true?"
Like I said in my first response on this thread, the rich young ruler came running to Jesus (Mark 10:17) and not vice versa. And Jesus was using the 10 commandments he quoted as a rhetorical device (he was making the point that if you keep all the commandments you can inherit eternal life, which of course is not possible for a lifetime). He was not using them to shame or embarrass the guy. and again this was a one on one interaction.
The apostles generally went into the synagogues or where they were invited or they were defending themselves in front of the authorities.
Again I certainly don't have anything against evangelism. But I think if we strictly look at the numbers, the best way to get someone to hear the gospel in an effective manner may be to get them into a loving church where they will hear the gospel. I think a welcoming environment amidst good Christian folks softens the heart. Many people in the world are never around this environment.
The reason the early church grew so fast was because the lost were seeing how all these new converts were acting and got drawn in.
Heydave wrote:
Yes they were attracted at first by miracles and being fed, but He rebuked them for this shallowness.
I know he rebuked them for fishes and loaves mentality (seems to me that was because of back in the desert when God provided the food everyday for them, but I might be wrong); but I digress.
Would you please provide the verse(s) where he rebuked them for following Him for the miracles, not the fishes and loaves but the miracles (being shallow)?
I’m on my way to work right now and it escapes my mind where this verse is. I'm not saying it's not in there, but I think I need a reminder.
Thank you,
Lisa
Matthew 12:38-39
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
When Jesus healed people he generally did it in private and cautioned the recipient to not advertise it. It was out of compassion and not used to draw crowds. Yes we know they came because they heard about the miracles, but it seems to me He did not put on a show to advertise Himself like we see many healing crusades do. The apostles never put on a healing meeting. They preached the gospel and as God moved them they healed the sick.
Jesus' main emphasis in His ministry was the bold and compassionate preaching of the gospel, whether at the temple or in synagogues, in homes, on a one to one basis, or in the open air from town to town. From the start His was a message of repentance and faith-Mark 1:15.
Regarding His many miracles, we must keep in mind that by His miracles He was fulfilling OT prophecy and proving He was indeed the long-awaited Messiah. When the disciples of John the Baptist asked Him on John's behalf whether or not He was truly the Messiah this was His reply to them:
"Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."-Matthew 11:4-6(cf. Luke 4:18)
But I can hear the objection, "What about the Apostles and disciples in Acts performing many miracles?"
Considering the following few factors, I'd say it was also for a special reason that there were so many such miracles on such a large scale during that time period:
1. Nowhere in the Word of God are we told that miracles are a must for preaching the gospel. However, we are told that miracles were a distinguishing mark of apostles. Paul told the Corinthians, "Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds."-2 Cor. 12:2
2. The fact that we have not seen the same types of miracles on such a large scale since then.
That is not to say that miracles are not for today. But simply to say I don't believe they are for today on such a large scale as during that time period; and simply to say that miracles do not prove or disprove one's evangelistic ministry or the anointing of the Holy Ghost.
Part of the problem with the scribes and Pharisees is that they were ignoring the signs Jesus already performed. They were dishonest in their rejection. You really can't compare Jesus' treatment of these men with his treatment of the masses.
The miracles performed by Jesus and the apostles obviously gave extra oomph to their message.
Why should it be any different today?
It is argued that Jesus only rebuked the Pharisees. I don't believe there is any clear proof of that in the Word. We know for sure that John the Baptist did not limit his hard rebukes to the scribes and Pharisees, and Jesus' message was essentially the same as John's. Notice what the Word says about John's preaching to the multitudes, not just the scribes and Pharisees:
"Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." 10 So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" 11 He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." 12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." 14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."-Luke 3:7-14
When sharing the gospel on the streets I've found that many times those who are the angriest at the preaching of the gospel are "religious" people who claim to be Christians but hate any mention of repentance. These are not people who dress like "religious" people or carry Bibles, they dress normally or casually. They go to church on a regular basis. But they have bought into a "gospel" that has told them they can take on a profession of faith without repentance. There are multitudes out there who fit that description. They start cursing you out for preaching the truth.
Like I said in my first response on this thread, the rich young ruler came running to Jesus (Mark 10:17) and not vice versa. And Jesus was using the 10 commandments he quoted as a rhetorical device (he was making the point that if you keep all the commandments you can inherit eternal life, which of course is not possible for a lifetime). He was not using them to shame or embarrass the guy. and again this was a one on one interaction.The apostles generally went into the synagogues or where they were invited or they were defending themselves in front of the authorities.
TMK, in your 3rd point you only stated that Jesus did not "recite" the 10 Commandments when evangelizing. Taken at face value that seems to imply He did not quote them period. You did not explain anything there.
But even with that explanation I would still disagree. In the Sermon on the Mount and other places Christ did in fact recite the 10 Commandments and expounded on them bringing out the spiritual meaning of them in order to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.
Regarding using God's moral law to embarrass people, why should preaching on God's law to bring conviction of sin be seen or understood that way? I know there are examples of bad preachers out there but there are also many good examples? Why paint such a broad brush?
I guess I do not consider Jesus' interaction with the rich young ruler to be evangelizing but I could see how some might consider it so.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with using the 10 commandments if done in a Christ-like spirit.
Regarding John the Baptist, the parallel passage in Mt 3 makes it clear that he was calling the scribes and pharisees a brood of vipers.
Regarding John the Baptist, the parallel passage in Mt 3 makes it clear that he was calling the scribes and pharisees a brood of vipers.
The account in Matthew is much shorter than the one in Luke. In Luke we are told that right after John gave that rebuke and warning,
"the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" 11 He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."
That indicates that the people in general got the sense that he was also addressing them. Concerning the passage in Luke this is what Matthew Henry writes, which I agree with:
"In Matthew he is said to have preached these same things to many of the Pharisees and Sadducees, that came to his baptism (Mt. 3:7-10); but here he is said to have spoken them to the multitude, that came forth to be baptized of him, v. 7. This was the purport of his preaching to all that came to him, and he did not alter it in compliment to the Pharisees and Sadducees, when they came, but dealt as plainly with them as with any other of his hearers. And as he did not flatter the great, so neither did he compliment the many, or make his court to them, but gave the same reproofs of sin and warnings of wrath to the multitude that he did to the Sadducees and Pharisees; for, if they had not the same faults, they had others as bad. Now observe here,
1. That the guilty corrupted race of mankind is become a generation of vipers; not only poisoned, but poisonous; hateful to God, hating one another. This magnifies the patience of God, in continuing the race of mankind upon the earth, and not destroying that nest of vipers. He did it once by water, and will again by fire.
2. This generation of vipers is fairly warned to flee from the wrath to come, which is certainly before them if they continue such; and their being a multitude will not be at all their security, for it will be neither reproach nor loss to God to cut them off. We are not only warned of this wrath, but are put into a way to escape it, if we look about us in time.
3. There is no way of fleeing from the wrath to come, but by repentance. They that submitted to the baptism of repentance thereby evidenced that they were warned to flee from the wrath to come and took the warning; and we by our baptism profess to have fled out of Sodom, for fear of what is coming upon it.
4. Those that profess repentance are highly concerned to live like penitents (v. 8): "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance, else, notwithstanding your professions of repentance, you cannot escape the wrath to come." By the fruits of repentance it will be known whether it be sincere or no. By the change of our way must be evidenced the change of our mind.
5. If we be not really holy, both in heart and life, our profession of religion and relation to God and his church will stand us in no stead at all: Begin not now to frame excuses from this great duty of repentance, by saying within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father. What will it avail us to be the children of godly parents if we be not godly, to be within the pale of the Church if we be not brought into the bond of the covenant?
6. We have therefore no reason to depend upon our external privileges and professions of religion, because God has no need of us or of our services, but can effectually secure by his own honour and interest without us. If we were cut off and ruined, he could raise up to himself a church out of the most unlikely,””children to Abraham even out of stones.
7. The greater professions we make of repentance, and the greater assistances and encouragements are given us to repentance, the nearer and the sorer will our destruction be if we do not bring forth fruits meet for repentance. Now that the gospel begins to be preached, now that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, now that the axe is laid to the root of the tree, threatenings to the wicked and impenitent are now more terrible than before, as encouragements to the penitent are now more comfortable. "Now that you are upon your behaviour, look to yourselves."
8. Barren trees will be cast into the fire at length; it is the fittest place for them: Every tree that doth not bring forth fruit, good fruit, is hewn down, and cast into the fire. If it serve not for fruit, to the honour of God's grace, let it serve for fuel, to the honour of his justice."
by Heydave
Matthew 12:38-39Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
The reason I believe it's out of context is that your scripture reference is the pharisees seeking signs when they had the Scriptures and had studied them for literally decades and should have seen Him in them.
Heydave wrote:
When Jesus healed people he generally did it in private and cautioned the recipient to not advertise it. It was out of compassion and not used to draw crowds. Yes we know they came because they heard about the miracles, but it seems to me He did not put on a show to advertise Himself like we see many healing crusades do. The apostles never put on a healing meeting. They preached the gospel and as God moved them they healed the sick.
God bless,
Lisa
PS: We may just have to agree to disagree, brother! :)
Lisa said: PS: We may just have to agree to disagree, brother! :)
Yes maybe sister. I'm ok with that.
The context of the scripture is the Pharisees asked for a sign. Jesus' response was as I undertsand it to state a general rule. "A evil and sinful generation seeks after a sign". The fact He said generation seems to make it much wider than just the Pharisees. Just to go after signs and not the Lord Himself is shallow imo.
Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?
quote: "Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?"
In the case of Jesus, it seems to be because people needed to be healed, or exorcised, or fed, or rescussitated, or storms needed to be calmed.
I don't think we can blame the masses for wanting to follow Jesus after seeing some of the miracles he performed (or even hearing about them). Who wouldn't?
I am asking the question why Jesus and the apostles didn't do things always in the same way.
Jesus healed some people with 'mud', some with laying of hands, some with a word, some on distance, etc.
Jesus drove out demons with one sentence, sometimes asking there name (one time), etc.
I see the same things with the proclamation of the gospel. He shares the 'good news' in different ways, different 'methods' I don't like the word), etc.
The same did the apostles. If you look at the gospel the apostles preach in the book of Acts, you say everything is different every time.
I believe we can learn from this that we shouldn't do a "copy" of anyone, even ourselves. Do what the Lords ask you to do, say what He wants you to speak, and be free.
For me, I always was scared and depressed because I couldn't do what some other brothers did concerning evangelism. That was until God showed me that I am not those brothers, but I the Lord created me like I am. So now I try to just do His will. One of those things is streetpreaching in our town. I am not special, but I just share what the Lords gives me. Sometimes it is the law in which I am preaching Christ. Another time it's judgement. The other time it is Christ' love. Another time it is the need of the people. Mostly it is a mix. But I do it because I believe the Lord called me for this.
Just do what the Lord calls you to do and read scripture with a prayer to get understanding.
amen wijnand.
Heydave wrote:
The context of the scripture is the Pharisees asked for a sign. Jesus' response was as I undertsand it to state a general rule. "A evil and sinful generation seeks after a sign". The fact He said generation seems to make it much wider than just the Pharisees. Just to go after signs and not the Lord Himself is shallow imo.
Just because people who have misused miracles and healing does not negate the fact that we are still to have signs following us (Christians). Signs following us, our ministry, and our words, etc.
Mark 16:17-18 states that "these signs shall follow them that believe;
1) In my name shall they cast out devils;
2) they shall speak with new tongues;
3) They shall take up serpents;
4) and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
5) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Verse 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, THE LORD WORKING WITH THEM, AND CONFIRMING THE WORD WITH SIGNS FOLLOWING. Amen.
Again, it’s usually the non-signs crowd that tries to disavow these verses aren’t in a certain text. So what? It’s in the other texts and the preceding verses are just like what Christ did during His life. And He did state that He has given us (you and me) all power OVER the power of THE ENEMY.
Why isn’t the Church daring to do what Jesus did?
Heydave wrote:
Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?
Read what Jesus did here...
Matthew 4: 19-21 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
23 And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they BROUGHT TO HIM all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
Matthew 10.1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Where in the Bible does it state that what He gave His disciples then stopped and not one of His disciples today are supposed to walk in that?
God bless,
Lisa
Lysa,
Your too quick to jump to conclusions. Just because I questioned the over emphasis on miracles for evangelism does not mean I am a cessationist or as you put it and unbeliever in signs. I do believe ALl the gifts are still available today when God decides to move in this way.
However if we are honest (and most aren't) much of what we see today in the western church are not the genuine gifts. You are very bold to declare you have the same power and authority to operate in the same gifts as the Apostles, so can you confirm when you last raised the dead, gave sight to the blind or raised up a lifelong cripple. Or have you even seen these type of instant miracles. I have been around Charismatic churches and so called healing meetings for much of the last 30 years and I can honestly say I have never seen this type of miracle. Yes I have seen and know of folk that were healed of minor ailments, but nothing on this level of miracle. I know folk who have recovered from major diseases over time after being prayed for, but we are talking here of a miracle sign where healing is instant like the Apostles and Christ.
I am not in unbelief that God can and does move in these gifts, but I don't see this and folk who think they should be doing these signs end up trying to produce something in their own strength (even if they are good intentioned) and the result is a bad testimony because they claim to give something they don't have or produce.
Where does that leave the gospel message when you claim the God who will save you from sin will also deliver you from sickness and then they are not healed? If you were wrong about that then maybe you are wrong about salvation would be the logical thought process. Of course the healing evangelist always has an answer such as 'you need to hold on in faith' or the 'manifestation will come later' or 'if the symptoms come back it's just the devil trying to steal your healing'. Funny we don't read any of those excuses in the bible.
Heydave,
I apologize brother, by the way you were writing, I thought you didn’t believe in the gifts for today.
And I can see that we have been talking about entirely two different things throughout this thread. Never once have I had in mind ‘healing evangelists’ while I’ve been talking to you in this thread but I can see that they have been in the forefront of your mind. Not that that's bad but we've just not been on the same wavelength.
I can’t help what others have done to taint the gift of healing, I am speaking purely of what the Scripture says that is available to us as the disciples of Christ. I would rather believe that than keep my eyes on men and their failures.
Brother, nowhere in my posts have I declared "I” got it but I can assure you that "I" definitely believe it’s there to be had for those who are willing to pay the price of a devoted life.
And yes, I have seen miracles, signs and wonders and none of them have been on TV. I've seen here a little, there a little and it has encouraged me to keep pressing on and keep my eyes on Him.
God bless, Dave
Lisa
I am asking the question why Jesus and the apostles didn't do things always in the same way.Jesus healed some people with 'mud', some with laying of hands, some with a word, some on distance, etc.
Jesus drove out demons with one sentence, sometimes asking there name (one time), etc.I see the same things with the proclamation of the gospel. He shares the 'good news' in different ways, different 'methods' I don't like the word), etc.
The same did the apostles. If you look at the gospel the apostles preach in the book of Acts, you say everything is different every time.
I believe we can learn from this that we shouldn't do a "copy" of anyone, even ourselves. Do what the Lords ask you to do, say what He wants you to speak, and be free.
For me, I always was scared and depressed because I couldn't do what some other brothers did concerning evangelism. That was until God showed me that I am not those brothers, but I the Lord created me like I am. So now I try to just do His will. One of those things is streetpreaching in our town. I am not special, but I just share what the Lords gives me. Sometimes it is the law in which I am preaching Christ. Another time it's judgement. The other time it is Christ' love. Another time it is the need of the people. Mostly it is a mix. But I do it because I believe the Lord called me for this.
Just do what the Lord calls you to do and read scripture with a prayer to get understanding.
Thank you wijnand for that post, I agree with probably most if not all of it(depending on whether or not I understood it all correctly :).
My concern recently is with a certain sentiment I've perceived here; a sentiment which says something along the lines of, "Street evangelism as we've come to know it (e.g. handing out tracts, intentionally sharing the gospel with strangers on the streets, street preaching) has not been working. Maybe we need to rethink it and do something much different." It's a sentiment that seems to downplay the types of street evangelism that many of us seek to continue to do faithfully unto the Lord.
My understanding from God's Word and from history is that upfront, bold evangelism has always been the way God has mostly gotten His message out. There are tons of scriptures and examples of this both in the Word and history.
I do not see any examples of God's servants waiting to build relationships over a long period of time in order to feel they have earned the right to share the gospel with them, or just letting our lives speak to unbelievers without verbal proclamation. That to me seems like a highly unbiblical method.
I think the street preacher has to balance the harm vs potential good. How many have been hopelessly turned off to Christianity by militant street preaching?
I guess that is a major concern I have because it seems harm may outweigh the good. Of course I have no way of knowing this for certain.
And to clarify--- I do not think a clear exposition of the word will ever do harm, but the method might.
I also forgot to mention in my last post the concern with the idea that miracles are needful for effective evangelism. That is simply not taught in God's Word. We see many examples of the pure preaching of the Word being used to bring about the necessary conviction of sin and repentance and faith.
I think the street preacher has to balance the harm vs potential good. How many have been hopelessly turned off to Christianity by militant street preaching?I guess that is a major concern I have because it seems harm may outweigh the good. Of course I have no way of knowing this for certain.
And to clarify--- I do not think a clear exposition of the word will ever do harm, but the method might.
What is definitely patterned and interwoven throughout the Word is the public proclamation of God's Word. Today there are many faithful, solidly biblical, compassionate street preachers out there and we cannot paint a broad brush over all street preaching. It is unfair.
The thought came to mind that the reason you don't hear much about the good examples of street preachers out there is because the media likes to highlight the bad examples. The media is not concerned with the good examples. The bad street preachers relish in and thrive on getting the attention of the media. They think they are being effective if they make the news. But again, we cannot allow that to cause us to downplay true biblical street preaching.
Agreed, which is why I said method matters.
Oraico wrote:
I also forgot to mention in my last post the concern with the idea that miracles are needful for effective evangelism. That is simply not taught in God's Word. We see many examples of the pure preaching of the Word being used to bring about the necessary conviction of sin and repentance and faith.
Here are two examples:
Read what Jesus did here...
Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about ALL GALILEE, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they BROUGHT TO HIM all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
//////////////
And this as well....
Matthew 10.1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
/////////////
There are more but I am work. I ask kindly, do you overlook these Scriptures when you read the God's Word?
1 Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
From Matthew Henry's commentary on this verse: "He laid down the doctrine as the Spirit delivered it; and left the Spirit, by his external operation in signs and miracles, and his internal influences on the hearts of men, to demonstrate the truth of it...."
For the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 1 Cor. 4:20
TMK, if Matthew Henry is saying that miracles are a litmus test of Spirit-anointed gospel preaching then Henry himself was a great failure, so were Whitefield, Wesley, Spurgeon, Finney, and many others who won sinners to Christ without miracles.
Lysa, I think you misunderstood my point. By no means have I denied the miracles wrought by our Lord and the Apostles and disciples and prophets as seen in God's Word.
My point was that God's Word does not teach that miracles are a must for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching. Just as there are examples of miracles, there are also examples of preaching without miracles. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to compile a list of such references. Both the Word and history tell us that miracles are not necessary for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching.
I agree with you that miracles do not need to accompany gospel preaching (but it would help). But SOMETHING must accompany it other than boldness or correct theology.
A bible teacher I like said that when he was in high school in the late 60s he would preach billy graham sermons he had on LPs in speech class (you could do that then). But he never saw his classmates get saved even though he had the sermons memorized.
Then the Jesus movement started in CA and he started attending Chuck Smiths church. Although he had been a Christian for years he never rec'd the baptism of the HS but he did at one of the services.
When he got back to school and preached the billy graham sermons in speech class all of a sudden he was seeing results. His only explanation is that he was now filled with the spirit.
The same was true with the worship band he was a part of. They would play gatherings at churches etc but never saw results until after he and his band mates received the baptism of the HS. then they started seeing results from their playing and speaking.
Matthew Henry does say in the commentary of those verses that if a preacher is not seeing results in his preaching then there is a lack of power at work.
TMK, I agree that there is a need for the filling of the Spirit in order for us to be anointed in our witness for Christ. That said, God sometimes chooses to bypass that need and still save some through the mere foolishness of preaching. The reason for that is because it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. He has set His seal on that message and makes it effective despite the lack of commitment sometimes on the part of those who preach it. But that's not an excuse for us not to be Spirit-filled. The more Spirit-filled we are, the more anointing there is and the more results there are.
Todd: I understand where you are coming from, (reference the original post) I think. In our town we block off main street one night a month in the summer and have a community festival / art walk of sorts. I have seen people come into town who shake their Bibles at people and scream that they are all going to hell. They sometimes have signs with messages that condemn people for all sorts of actions.
The thing that is notably absent from their message is that fact that God loves sinners and longs for them to come to repentance. It is as if they do not desire for any of the people to actually come to repentance, but would rather just condemn them. It is almost like they are happy that the people are lost.
I think Jesus did preach, everywhere He went. Paul was certainly a street preacher. Yet their preaching was not simply condemnation. Sure, they were very honest with people about their lost condition. That is necessary. But their endgame was to tell those people that there was a way out of their lost condition if they would repent, surrender their lives to Christ, and receive forgiveness.
Amen twayneb.
Do the signs (miracles) follow the word to confirm it or are they publicity that acts as an attraction to the flesh?
I think both in a way. What we do know is that signs and miracles followed to confirm the word, and that they were much publicized. Many came to hear both Christ and the apostles because they had heard of the miracles being performed.
What I have noticed is that some believers seem to be overly focused on the manifestations, seemingly for their own sake. There is a signs and wonders movement afoot that has, in my opinion, gone off the deep end where manifestations of the power of God are concerned.
I guess I see things pretty simply sometimes, and to me it should look like this. If I am full of the Holy Spirit, then God should be able to use me to minister to others in supernatural ways. But the purpose of this ministry is not so that we can all focus on manifestations. It is just a natural part of being filled with the Holy Spirit of God. It is really nothing special, although to our fleshly mind it seems out of the ordinary. But the end result of all of it should be to point to Christ. If people are not maturing in the things of God, if they are not growing into the full measure of the stature of a full grown man in Christ, then what was the point anyway? If I am preaching truth, then the Holy Spirit of God should manifestly be supportive of that truth. He will confirm that what I have said is of Him. But again, the purpose of the manifestation is the edification of the body.
I am always a little bit concerned when someone spends much time talking about signs, miracles, and manifestations, but does not spend much time or energy trying to grow and mature the body of Christ.
Oracio wrote:
Lysa, I think you misunderstood my point. By no means have I denied the miracles wrought by our Lord and the Apostles and disciples and prophets as seen in God's Word.My point was that God's Word does not teach that miracles are a must for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching. Just as there are examples of miracles, there are also examples of preaching without miracles. Unfortunately I do not have time right now to compile a list of such references. Both the Word and history tell us that miracles are not necessary for anointed, God-honoring gospel preaching.
Oracio, you are right, the Bible does not explicitly say, "Miracles "MUST” follow your preaching,” but I do believe that the Word and history does in fact teach "by example” that it should be always be included and/or expected! I would rather lay hands on the sick EXPECTING them to recover than not lay hands on them. And just because no one gets healed doesn't mean I stop praying for them either. :)
God bless you,
Lisa
twayneb wrote:
I am always a little bit concerned when someone spends much time talking about signs, miracles, and manifestations, but does not spend much time or energy trying to grow and mature the body of Christ.
I only talk about miracles, signs and wonders on sermonindex butI think it’s a shame that I feel that I have to defend the working of God’s miracles, of all places, on a Christian website. But I’m not discouraged, someone has to do it! :) :)
But I have some questions I’d like to ask in respect to you. Why can’t Christians talk about believing in miracles without you or others becoming "a bit concerned” about it? What is the cut off time for them to discuss it before you deem them not spending time or energy growing or maturing in Christ? Five minutes, 20 minutes, one page of a thread or six pages? I ask in all kindness, what are your stipulations? :)
Being born again is in the Bible, do people in your church talk too much about that? (Again, I’m asking in kindness...), Or is it just miracles, signs and wonders that get lumped together with not growing or maturing in Christ when people talk about it?
I was just wondering brother and thought I would do my best to ask as kindly as the type written word would allow.
God bless you,
Lisa
Hi TMK
your statement here is so so important
When he got back to school and preached the billy graham sermons in speech class all of a sudden he was seeing results. His only explanation is that he was now filled with the spirit.
i cringe when i hear people preaching without the holy spirit as it normally is not fresh mana and cuases offence. when words are directed by the holy spirit it cuts straight to the soul of man and is always fresh and personal. My life changed because a Godly man filled with the holy spirit said some things to me that rocked the core of my foundations and as a result my zeal and thirst for the Lord continues to this day.
When the word is powered by the holy spirit it brings tears of joy. people who havent experienced this can not understand it as it is personal touch. on the other side of the coin their is another spirit being used in the same manner and the outcome is devistating to the people recieving it.
the holy spirit can only and will only bring truth where as the flesh will bring what it percieves to be the truth through a currupted mindset.
I cringe when people focus so much attention on strategy in evangelizing, ministry. It sounds so fleshy to me - sounds like you are running a business.
One time the disciples complained to Jesus how they saw and heard people preach who were not a 'part of them' and they forbade them. What did Jesus say? "Forbid them not." I suspect Jesus will use anyone, lots of people, incidents to bring about conviction. All we have to do is to be faithful when the Holy Spirit convicts us to speak and act. He will be the one to bring conviction to fruition.
My understanding.
Sandra
hi Ginnyrose
in some cases i agree but in other cases i do not agree. my fault for being so general in my response. for example the westborough church they do speak out from the bible but they lack compassion and love and cause anger. when jesus was grabed by the soldier, one of the apostles drew his sword and cut of the soldiers ear, jesus put the ear back on the soldier and healed him. why did he do this? the sword represents the word of God and if it is used in the wrong manner then it cuts of the ear of the listener by causing offence this stops the word finding good ground in peoples hearts. the apostiles response was an emotional one due to his love for jesus but it wasnt the right response.
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