Where will the antichrist arise from??

I want to invite you all to read my new article, "Looking to Rome for the Antichrist." Here is the link:http://www.believeonjesus.com/articles/arneson/RomeAntichrist.aspI would love to know what you all think of it. I pray it is timely.Blessings,RT

Quote by Healingwaters:Who Cares!!:-D What is more important is that we are:"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith"AMEN !!!

From RT's article:As for the saints reading this, I encourage you to keep these things in mind so you will not be deceived. I leave you with the words of 1 Thess. 5:4-10:"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." (1 Thess. 5:4-10).Not only are we called to "abide in me", but we are also called by Jesus to "WATCH". Thanks for sharing your article with us. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

The antichrist will have these attributes:Dan. 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done. 37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all. 38 But in their place he shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things. 39 Thus he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and divide the land for gain. He will be a king of a nation that has a great army that causes great destruction. He will control the economic forces of the world. He will for a time appear to support the people of God but it will be for his gain. He will be leading vast armies against the king of the south. And both men will be of a similiar nature. They both seek to exault themselves above all nations. They both seek to rule the world. In ChristJeff

Dear Jeff, I hope people will read your post and let their eyes be open.Surrendered to Him, Chanin

RT I haven't yet check out the link but I will though. Karlyou have THE point, as long as we are focused on what God has for us to do when these things happen not only will we recognize them but we will be unshaken.

I also used to be very into the end times things. It consumed me for awhile. Yet I finally figured out that it is all in God's hands anyway. Why was I wasting my time on these things when I should be focusing on becoming Christ-like. Helping those in need, and preparing myself and my family for ANYTHING- for whatever God saw fit to do.If we are truly growing in Christlikeness, we will be prepared for whatever comes our way. I know the worst that could happen and I know all the in between. But I have found that being prepared spirtually is what matters most.It's amazing when i think about it, how many other subjects that were about "christian" things that have taken up my time and study- when I could have used that time and study for His good and not my own high mindedness. I have repented of this in the past. I believe that as we grow in His likeness, we will know and have a sense of what to expect. But many times cannot tell others of this wisdom until it is revealed to them by Jesus Himself.-----------How much of your focus is directed to the things of God, and not to God Himself? How much of your discussion centers on things about Jesus, and not Jesus Himself? Just look around. This brother is focused on end-time events, and that sister is devoted to inner healing. This brother is primarily concerned with prophetic things, while another sister is keenly interested in spiritual warfare. That brother is deeply involved with theological discussions, while that sister is in love with Christian music. One movement emphasizes this particular thing, and another group stands for another thing. There may be diversities of gifts and callings. There may be various and sundry things to be involved with. There may be many topics to study and discuss. Many things compete for our time, attention, affection, energy, and money. But there is only one Lord Jesus. Just as some people cannot see the forest for the trees, I believe most sinners cannot see Jesus for the Christians. And I believe most Christians cannot see Jesus for the "church". (Is Jesus Enough?-C. Brogden)

Sis wrote:How much of your focus is directed to the things of God, and not to God Himself? How much of your discussion centers on things about Jesus, and not Jesus Himself? As one begins to understand and a fire grows in the heart for one's Savior, the whole world disappears before the glory of God. The sweet aroma of Christ will permeate our entire life as we center on "Jesus Himself." Are we being conformed into His image? That is a penetrating question Chanin. In ChristJeff

Br. Karl wrote:"Even in troublous times" Please read Ezra and Nehemiah and discover that they went thru much trouble with the inhabitants round about them who also opposed the work.I hear what you are saying. I see what you are saying. I myself have not been a student of escatology so I cannot teach much on what is to come. The ideas of pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib are not clear to me. Throughout Scripture I have seen that God delivers His people, but most times it is not how the people thought it would be. Yet, the promises God makes to the natural branch and the wild branch, somehow threads its way throughtout Scripture. And of course, the nation of Israel, is once again real according to the flesh. One thing I know is that the conflicts we see in Scripture are of our own lack of understanding. Psa. 19:1 \tThe heavens declare the glory of God;\tAnd the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 \tDay unto day utters speech,\tAnd night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 \tThere is no speech nor language\tWhere their voice is not heard. 4 \tTheir line has gone out through all the earth,\tAnd their words to the end of the world...The word of God lines up and declare the glory of God. Someday we will see as He sees. In ChristJeff

Wow guys. I invited you to read my new article that I spent a considerable time and care writing and you say:"Who Cares!!" - (Healingwaters and Heavenlyman)Is this what you mean by "try to be more sensitive" or "have a Christ-like attitude"??? You boys might want to check the huge mote in your eye.Is this your attempt at "edification"?? You wrote:What knowledge shall we gain by knowing who or what is the antichrist?Well maybe you should take that question up with Jesus and ask Him why he gave the Olivet discourse recorded in Matt. 24. Maybe you should ask why Paul went to such detail to alert us to who antichrist will be in 2 Thess. 2. Maybe you will want to Ask Daniel why he bothered. Maybe you will want to ask the Lord Jesus why he bothered giving John the Revelation.Do you insist on resisting the Holy Ghost??? Do you really think that these subjects are never to be dealt with? Does a person have to talk about the every aspect of theology all of the time to apease men such as yourselves?? Is it bad to stick to one subject (I just mean one subject at a time, not only one subject ever) and take scripture expositorily?? This is not about "growing in Christ." If you want to talk about that, do it. But don't accuse me for not talking about it here. That is not what this article is about.I suppose if I were to post something about marriage you would say, "Will it cause us to be more intimate in Christ and become a better effective soul winner?" (Quote of Healing?waters) And the answer will be no. Not because we aren't interested in soulwinning, but simply because that is not what we are talking about at the present moment. It will, however, cause my relationship to my wife to be better. Yes, this subject has an INDIRECT affect on my relationship with Christ, but so does my understanding of Bible prophecy. It is evident to all that I am not the one picking a fight. Well, I refuse to fight or attack you guys.Meat is for the mature. Grow up, boys.BTW: Thank you so much, Cindy, for your ever so kind comments on the article. You are a blessing. Praise God for your stand for Biblical marriage and God's word.Blessings,RT

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Br Karl wrote:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."It is with this that when Christ died He set Israel free from being married to God. After Christ died, she was no longer married to God her connection with God was severed. Even God was set free (that is hard to believe) Isaiah 43:24I do not see this Scripture in the same light as you. The Law still condemns all men today. The Law of God has always existed. Paul is teaching in Romans 7 about a believer who still follows the old man. Chapter 7 is devoted to revealing to us that we cannot continue to follow the old man. If we continue in the old ways, we are living in an adulterous relationship with God. There is nothing good in the flesh. Yet what is the solution? We are called to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. If we submit to His leading, the old man dies and we no longer live in an adulterous relationship with our Lord. Paul teaches that one can be a babe in Christ an not understand the leading of the Spirit. See 1 Corinthians 2 and 3. Paul in 3:1, "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it and even now you are still not able, for you are still carnal.God has always sought to free His people from the bondage of sin. Only by grace through faith can anyone enter into a relationship where Jesus sets men free from the bondage of the flesh. In ChristJeff

Br RT,Sorry for my quick response. I will read what you have offered. In Christjeff

Br Karl wrote:Remember what Christ said to the those Jews who believed on Him, He said "you are of your father the devil". Not all Israel is of Israel. The true Israel of God is the new creation in Christ Jesus.This particular scene is Scripture speaks of the Pharisees who did not believe in Jesus. I have many problems with the teachings of dispensational theology as it is taught today. One of the precepts that I do see in Scripture is that God has chosen a nation Israel and has set this particular people apart from the gentiles. I do not understand how things will be in the completion of His work, but I do see that He has made an covenant that cannot be broken with the people Israel. Jer. 33:19 And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 “Thus says the LORD: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ” Jer. 33:23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 “Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the LORD has chosen, He has also cast them off|’? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them. Jer. 33:25 “Thus says the LORD: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’ ” In ChristJeff

Br. RT I read the article. The antichrist may very well come from what we know as the Roman Empire. Yet, in terms of why the kings of the earth commit fornication with the harlot, I have not seen that this man's views align with what we know of the Harlot.The harlot is spiritual. The harlot is a creation of Satan. The wine of the harlot gives the kings of the earth something that they desire. The manifestations of the harlot's spell are much more in line with ruling the world. The manifestations of being able to exalt oneself above all others is the goal of the kings who submit to the harlot. Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, listen for the substance of the temptation.Matt. 4:8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” Satan tempts the kings of this earth with the glory of the brotherhood of men. Listen to Paul teach about how God views this manifestation.1Cor. 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29, that no flesh should glory in His presence."The Harlot sedduces the kings of this earth with the glory of the brotherhood of man. What gives these kings glory? Could it be mamon, the love of which become the roots of all kind of evil? A disciple cannot have two gods. Now how many people do you hear preachin about the love of mamon being the root of all kinds of evil? Could this be the substance of what the harlot represents? How many worship mamon in this world?In ChristJeff

I do not see this Scripture in the same light as you. The Law still condemns all men today. The Law of God has always existed. Paul is teaching in Romans 7 about a believer who still follows the old man. Chapter 7 is devoted to revealing to us that we cannot continue to follow the old man. If we continue in the old ways, we are living in an adulterous relationship with God. There is nothing good in the flesh. Yet what is the solution? We are called to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. If we submit to His leading, the old man dies and we no longer live in an adulterous relationship with our Lord.I think there is something Healingwaters was pointing out that maybe you haven't seen. He didn't quote the application of the Biblical illustration of Rom. 7:2,3. Let's try again. Here's the illustration Paul gives:Rom. 7:2,3 "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."OK, the issue here is the marriage covenant established in the garden of Eden before the law of Moses. This is why it is referred to as "the law of her husband." When a covenant is made, certain laws or commandments govern the covenant. It was the same way with the law of Moses. Remember when the Israelites lined up half on one hill, half on the other and proclaimed blessings and curses? These were the results of violating the covenant and the blessings of keeping it. The covenant was until death do us part. While at least one of the parties was still alive, the covenant was in force. A violation didn't destroy the covenant. It only brought consequence. This is the same with the marriage covenant. The only way to disolve it is through death.Let's look at the application:Rom. 7:4-6 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."So in the same way that a wife is bound to love, honor, submit to, and obey here husband, we were bound to love, honor, submit to, and obey the law of God. But if we are dead, we are free from our bondage to the law just as a wife is free from the law of her husband through death. Notice, we are "dead to the law by the body of Christ." Not just dead to sin, but dead to the law. I didn't say that, the Bible did. If we are not dead to the law, we are seeking to commit adultery with Christ. And Christ will have no part of adultery, though we beg Him. He IS righteousness.Listen to the verse. Why are we dead to the law? "...that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." So take your pick. Die to the law and live with Christ. Or live to the law and be estranged from Christ and live under the curse of the law. Remember that everyone under the law is cursed because we cannot keep it. You cannot have the Spirit of Christ as a pledge of your betrothal to Christ without making yourself "availible" for re-marriage. This can only happen when you die to the law. You must be identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. You must be crucified with Christ. Christ perfectly fulfilled the law and died to it not having broken it.Go read Gal. 4:4. It says that the Son was made of a woman, made under the law. Why? (v.5) "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."Christ was made "under the law" for a reason. He lived under a bondage you could not bear in your flesh. The old law exists today for those who have not died to it in Christ. There is a new covenant that can only be entered into through death and resurrection. This is the gospel. This is why we are told, if Christ did not rise from the dead, we are still in our sins.This is the power of Gal. 2:20. Much more could be said. I want to stop here and give you a chance to respond.Blessings,RT

Br RT wrote:Notice, we are "dead to the law by the body of Christ." Not just dead to sin, but dead to the law. I didn't say that, the Bible did. If we are not dead to the law, we are seeking to commit adultery with Christ. And Christ will have no part of adultery, though we beg Him. He IS righteousness.I was following along until this. You said, "if we are not dead to the law, we are seeking to commit adultery with Christ. And Christ will have no part of adultery..." I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. And what you have stated here clearly states what Paul is teaching throughtout chapter 7. And what solution is there that enables us to overcome the law?Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Do you see that Paul is teaching about the adultery you speak of? What does Jesus say about this situation?John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Do you see that whoever remain a slave of sin does not abide in the house forever, but it is only those who follow Christ through the Holy Spirit that overcome the law and bondage to sin.Yes the Scripture do say that "if" you are Christs then you are dead to the law. Just like Scripture says, "13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.In ChristJeff

Br RT wrote, So take your pick. Die to the law and live with Christ. Or live to the law and be estranged from Christ and live under the curse of the law. Remember that everyone under the law is cursed because we cannot keep it.The Corinthians seemed to have the problem you have spoke of here. Listen to Paul, he first acknowledges:1Cor. 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Corinthians have been given all things in Christ and yet listen to Paul's admonition.1 Corinthian 3: 1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. Now we know what Paul teaches about the carnally minded brethren.Romans 8: 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. So again Scripture teaches as you have said, " So take your pick." Today is the day of Salvation, just as tomorrow is. Do we choose to obey the Spirit or remain in bondage to the carnal mind? The law of the Spirit satisfies the law of God. In ChristJeff

Br RT wrote"This is the gospel. This is why we are told, if Christ did not rise from the dead, we are still in our sins.This is also the gospel.3 \t“Blessed are the poor in spirit,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.4 \tBlessed are those who mourn,\t\tFor they shall be comforted.5 \tBlessed are the meek,\t\tFor they shall inherit the earth.6 \tBlessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,\t\tFor they shall be filled.7 \tBlessed are the merciful,\t\tFor they shall obtain mercy.8 \tBlessed are the pure in heart,\t\tFor they shall see God.9 \tBlessed are the peacemakers,\t\tFor they shall be called sons of God.10 \tBlessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,\t\tFor theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.A disciple of Christ will also die in the ways that Christ taught in the above verses. We are very close in many ways. You mentioned Christ death and resurrected life, this is also the path that you and I must travel. In ChristJeff

Br Karl quoted this Scripture37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.Satan knows who Jesus is, yet he doesn't obey. Jesus convicts these men, "because my word hath no place in you." In ChristJeff

Br Karl,I hear the Scripture you have quoted here. I believe this speaks of the first desolation of Israel. And knowing that you live in the OT also, in the book of Zechariah we find another work of God in a new generation. :Zech. 1:7 On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet: 8 I saw by night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse, and it stood among the myrtle trees in the hollow; and behind him were horses: red, sorrel, and white. 9 Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.” Zech. 1:10 And the man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are the ones whom the LORD has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.” Zech. 1:11 So they answered the Angel of the LORD, who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, “We have walked to and fro throughout the earth, and behold, all the earth is resting quietly.” Zech. 1:12 Then the Angel of the LORD answered and said, “O LORD of hosts, how long will You not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which You were angry these seventy years?” Zech. 1:13 And the LORD answered the angel who talked to me, with good and comforting words. 14 So the angel who spoke with me said to me, “Proclaim, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts:\t‘I am zealous for Jerusalem\tAnd for Zion with great zeal. 15 \tI am exceedingly angry with the nations at ease;\tFor I was a little angry,\tAnd they helped—but with evil intent.” Zech. 1:16 “Therefore thus says the LORD:\t‘I am returning to Jerusalem with mercy;\tMy house shall be built in it,” says the LORD of hosts,\t“And a surveyor’s line shall be stretched out over Jerusalem.” ’ Zech. 1:17 “Again proclaim, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts:\t‘My cities shall again spread out through prosperity;\tThe LORD will again comfort Zion,\tAnd will again choose Jerusalem.” ’ ” Again as you mentioned the second desolation that occured in 70 AD, I believe God will say once again to a new generation, ‘My cities shall again spread out through prosperity;\tThe LORD will again comfort Zion,\tAnd will again choose Jerusalem.” ’ ” In ChristJeff

I was reading in the books of Hosea and Amos this morning. These are some of the Scripture I would like to share concerning the Harlot and her fornication with the kings of the earth.Hosea 2:4 \t“I will not have mercy on her children,\tFor they are the children of harlotry. 5 \tFor their mother has played the harlot;\tShe who conceived them has behaved shamefully.\tFor she said, “I will go after my lovers,\tWho give me my bread and my water,\tMy wool and my linen,\tMy oil and my drink.’ 6 \t“Therefore, behold,\tI will hedge up your way with thorns,\tAnd wall her in,\tSo that she cannot find her paths. 7 \tShe will chase her lovers,\tBut not overtake them;\tYes, she will seek them, but not find them.\tThen she will say,\t“I will go and return to my first husband,\tFor then it was better for me than now.’ 8 \tFor she did not know\tThat I gave her grain, new wine, and oil,\tAnd multiplied her silver and gold—\tWhich they prepared for Baal. Here we see that Ephraim has gone after lovers who have provided her with:Who give me my bread and my water,\tMy wool and my linen,\tMy oil and my drink.’ God then says that He is going to take it all away. And then Ephraim will return to Him. Listen to what He says next:8 \tFor she did not know\tThat I gave her grain, new wine, and oil,\tAnd multiplied her silver and gold—\tWhich they prepared for Baal. You see God has His economy and Satan seeks to destroy by temptation and lies. In the above Scripture God is the one who cares for His people. Yet, His people have commited adultery with Baal. They have attributed their provisions to the gods of other nations. Listen to the Scriptures in the book of Amos about the ways of those who follow Baal. Amos 5:10 \tThey hate the one who rebukes in the gate,\tAnd they abhor the one who speaks uprightly. 11 \tTherefore, because you tread down the poor\tAnd take grain taxes from him,\tThough you have built houses of hewn stone,\tYet you shall not dwell in them;\tYou have planted pleasant vineyards,\tBut you shall not drink wine from them. 12 \tFor I know your manifold transgressions\tAnd your mighty sins:\t Afflicting the just and taking bribes;\tDiverting the poor from justice at the gate. 13 \tTherefore the prudent keep silent at that time,\tFor it is an evil time. Amos 6:3 \tWoe to you who put far off the day of doom,\tWho cause the seat of violence to come near; 4 \tWho lie on beds of ivory,\tStretch out on your couches,\tEat lambs from the flock\tAnd calves from the midst of the stall; 5 \tWho sing idly to the sound of stringed instruments,\tAnd invent for yourselves musical instruments like David; 6 \tWho drink wine from bowls,\tAnd anoint yourselves with the best ointments,\tBut are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. 7 \tTherefore they shall now go captive as the first of the captives,\tAnd those who recline at banquets shall be removed. 8 \tThe Lord GOD has sworn by Himself,\tThe LORD God of hosts says:\t“I abhor the pride of Jacob,\tAnd hate his palaces;\tTherefore I will deliver up the city\tAnd all that is in it.” Amos 8:Amos 8:5 Saying:\t“When will the New Moon be past,\tThat we may sell grain?\tAnd the Sabbath,\tThat we may trade wheat?\tMaking the ephah small and the shekel large,\tFalsifying the scales by deceit, 6 \tThat we may buy the poor for silver,\tAnd the needy for a pair of sandals—\tEven sell the bad wheat?” 7 \tThe LORD has sworn by the pride of Jacob:\t“Surely I will never forget any of their works. All these things that the Lord testifies here speak of the fruits of Satan. You see God provides for the people, yet they did not walk in the ways that the Lord led them. Instead Ephraim walk in the ways of the people around them and exceeded the wickedness of those people. Ephraim walk according to the ways of Satan. Do you see the bloodshed? Do you see whom they worshipped? Do you see the fruits of fornication with the Harlot? In ChristJeff

I don't know where (geographicaly) the Antichrist will (has) arise(en) from.But I know this: I dread my own heart more than the pope and all his cardinals, for within me is the greater pope, even self. --Martin LutherAnd...Worst of all my foes, I fear the enemy within. --John Wesley In the words of the Lord Jesus Christ..."For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man." (Mark 7:21-23)

As I understand the Revelation there must be a one world currency with people receiving the mark on hand or forehead in order to participate. This is only one, very literalistic, understanding of the 13th chapter of Revelation. The verse following (14:1) speaks of those "having his Father's name written in their foreheads". Very few take that verse literaly.I think along these lines:- The mark of the beast is the world's stamp on everthing you do (hand) and how you think (forehead). If you don't think and act according to the world you have no part in it (can't buy and sell) ie you won't fit into the system. Those who refuse the worlds ways are those who have the Father's name wrtitten on thier foreheads, following the Lamb where ever he goes. Wheter this had or will have a more specific aplication, I don't know. But I doubt it has anything to do with microchips inserted into the hand or head.

Wheter this had or will have a more specific aplication, I don't know. But I doubt it has anything to do with microchips inserted into the hand or head.tacoincidentally this technology is currently being perfected and tested as we speak so it may well be that people will get microchips inserted in their hands. I heard a rumour that it is being tried out on babies in Europe, not sure how true that is though.

incidentally this technology is currently being perfected and tested as we speak so it may well be that people will get microchips inserted in their hands. It could indeed happen. But I would still wonder if that is the correct interpretation of Rev 13:16-18. To me it seems unlikley, I have never understood 14:1 to mean that people will have the Father's name literaly written on their foreheads. I can see no reason to interpret 13:16-18 stone cold literaly but not do the same with Rev 14:1 (or the rest of chapter 14 for that matter).We have a tendacy to be self centerd, and to think that all these things must refer to stuff that is going on in the news today.

Bubbaguy,Nevertheless, I still have a serious problem with that first line. As I understand the Revelation there must be a one world currency with people receiving the mark on hand or forehead in order to participate. This is many many years away if it is even ever at all a possibility. There are places in the world with no currency let alone entirely electronic economies. Much of Africa is hundreds of years away from this. People there live on barter economies, largely and have no or little experience with even a cheching account.How is it that we are living in the last days?Well to be honest, we must admit that the book of Revelation doesn't say there will be a one world currency. That is a possiblity. It does say that no man will be able to buy or sell unless he has the mark "in" his right hand or forehead.It was around the year 2001 and I was watching CBN headline news. They feature the world's first "all digital family", the Jacobs family. They were from Florida and all had chip implants in their bodies. I was shocked. Now I know that in the PIM (positive identification microchip) is used for bartabs, the military, and we all know: pets. I hear of this being done elsewhere in the world.This chip is about the size of a grain of rice. It is not expensive to produce and will be easy to distribute to everyone in the world. As per your concerns with "barter" societies, this may remain until the coming of the Lord. Of course I expect to be able to barter for something during this time, but this is dealing with the law or pronouncement of the beast. It does include virtually all of the world.The apostles said that the gospel had reached all of the world in their time, but we assume they meant all of the known world. We don't have any record of the apostle Paul coming to America. (Maybe the Mormons do :-P )We understand this in a general sense. We certainly hope there will be exceptions. At any rate, this will be the worst tribulation the world has ever seen or will see, as Jesus said.Hope this helps

taco,This is only one, very literalistic, understanding of the 13th chapter of Revelation. The verse following (14:1) speaks of those "having his Father's name written in their foreheads". Very few take that verse literaly.A name being written in the forehead and a "mark" in the forehead are two different things. Anyone can see this with an objective view.How do you know the Father's name won't be written in some way in their foreheads? You just don't know do you?But we do know that there will be a mark that will be distinguishable to money changers who will require this for transaction. You really shouldn't dismiss this. We do know there will be some kind of tangible mark. The Scriptures demand it.Blessings,RT

taco,We have a tendacy to be self centerd, and to think that all these things must refer to stuff that is going on in the news today.Jesus said "Watch" for the signs. (Matt. 24) This is not selfish. It is wisdom. I sure wouldn't want to discourage anyone from watching. We are children of the day. We are not a slumbering church. We must be on the alert.Way to go, IRONMAN!Blessings,RT

Nevertheless, I still have a serious problem with that first line. As I understand the Revelation there must be a one world currency with people receiving the mark on hand or forehead in order to participate. This is many many years away if it is even ever at all a possibility. There are places in the world with no currency let alone entirely electronic economies. Much of Africa is hundreds of years away from this. People there live on barter economies, largely and have no or little experience with even a cheching account.People in africa are not as backward as you may think.

It could indeed happen. But I would still wonder if that is the correct interpretation of Rev 13:16-18. To me it seems unlikley, I have never understood 14:1 to mean that people will have the Father's name literaly written on their foreheads. I can see no reason to interpret 13:16-18 stone cold literaly but not do the same with Rev 14:1 (or the rest of chapter 14 for that matter).tacoit may seem unlikely that we would have God's name on our forheads but I see no reason why God wouldn't have it as such. this is not the first time that people have had their forheads marked. I believe it happened during the time of one of the prophets, I think ezekiel (I could be wrong on which prophet) where and angel came down from heaven with an inkhorn and was told to mark the forheads of the people God had chosen. I guess we should agree to dirsagree on this one, I prefer to take that scripture literally, less of a headache in figuring out what it means :-P

So this is the wisdom of God that we all been waiting for, by taking this microchip we damn our souls to hell fire. Wow, it takes technology to damn a soul. So what is the mark of the Christian? Kool-Aid stain?KarlDon't make light of the wisdom of God. God does as He pleases whether i makes sense to us or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not, or even if we don't think it's fair. This is a big reason why the tribulation will catch so many people off guard, because it doesn't make sense, we don't think it's fair, we don't agree with it and we just plain don't like it. Who among us can march up to heaven and counsel God on these matters? If there is one let him speak now. If the mark of the beast is to be a microchip, then so shall it be, if that is the will of God then who of us can make Him change it? if the tribulation is "unfair" then who can convince God of that?think about this John wrote what He saw int he book of revelation. He literally saw 4 horses riding out, he saw the large hailstones falling down to earth, he saw the abyss as it was opened and saw the locusts with the scorpions tails and the horsemen which rode all over the earth whose beasts breathed smoke. In the spirit this is what happens on earth it is the tribulation. Of this we can all be sure, the tribulation is upon us, get oil in your lamp and stay awake the master's return is at hand. be ye ready brethren.

So as you can see my brother, I cannot believe in this peace treaty when there is no peace treaty to be had in this verse. I know this was to Ironman. But I just want to point out that this claim is not in my article, "Looking to Rome for the Antichrist." Reference to the abomination of desolation is. It is used in reference to 2 Thess. 2. What say you of the man of sin sitting in the temple, showing himself to be God? Is that not the abomination of desolation?Do you have a website where you deal with this. I am always open to hear Scripture.Blessings,RT

Karl i'm not trying to convince of you anything. I'm just saying that this is what God has been showing me in the spirit lately. The seals are about to be broken, the trumpets are about to be blown and the vials are about to be poured out onto the earth. We disagree on this and so we'll just leave it at that. I'm doing what God told me to do, warn of the impending tribulation. Be ye ready brethren

Received text there are great sites on this, I encourage you to go to www.preterist.org and also www.lightofthecity.com and http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/index.htmlI plan on visiting these sites. I have some links for you as well since I gather you are a preterist. Here you go:http://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret01.htmlhttp://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret02.htmlhttp://www.pfrs.org/preterism/pret03.htmlI have pasted the Intro section below:"Preterism"Introductionby Tim Warner - 011/2003Preterism is the theory that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled. The second coming, resurrection, and last judgment, have been fulfilled in a mystical sense in AD70 — the destruction of Jerusalem. According to preterists, we are now living in the "New Heaven and New Earth." The resurrection is not of the body. Nothing remains to be fulfilled prophetically.The weight of the preterist interpretation stands almost exclusively on the statements in the New Testament regarding the nearness of Christ's coming. Preterists insist that such statements as, "behold I come quickly," demand that Christ's coming occur in a very short period of time, within the lifetimes of at least some of the Apostles. But in holding this opinion, they are forced to deny the plain sense of the details of Christ's coming. Rather than Christ's appearing in the clouds in power and glory, with all nations of the world witnessing the event, Christ is said to have come invisibly in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Consequently, preterists hold mostly to an allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures. Not only prophecy, but even historical narratives in some cases. The passages alleged to teach a first century second coming can be divided into three kinds. First, there are some verses in the Gospels where Jesus made certain direct statements about His coming. Secondly, the expectancy of the Apostles themselves, that they could live to see Jesus' coming, can be inferred from certain statements they made. Both futurists and preterists agree that Paul and perhaps other Apostles expected to live to see the second coming. And this expectation was passed on to the local churches in the first century. Thirdly, several passages speak of Jesus' coming as "soon" or "near." Preterists claim that these passages require Jesus' coming within a very short period of time.Futurists need to address these passages, and explain how the Apostles could hold such an expectancy without being in error themselves, while maintaining futurism. In this series of articles, we will put forward the biblical scenario that explains all these things without calling into question the credibility of Jesus or the Apostles.The preterism section is divided into three parts. The first part contains articles proving preterism wrong, and proving the biblical view — futurism. The second section deals in greater detail with the arguments of presteists from specific passages of Scripture. These are listed by referrence. The third section is an online debate, preterism vs. futurism, between Samuel Frost and Tim Warner. The debate clearly demonstrates the heretical tendencies of preterism. The most important article is the postscript to the debate, which summarizes why preterism must be rejected as heresy. Enjoy the study. I know I will.Blessings,RT

Healingwaters wrote:The abomination of desolation is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate". The abomination was the Roman army, when the Christians of that day saw Titus standing in the holy place that was the sign to leave Jerusalem and flee to the mountains because great tribualation did come to that city.If anyone would like to know more about the horrific and catastrophic events that took place at that time, read Josephus. In his Annals of Jewish history he will tell you of eye witness accounts of what happened then, and also what was taking place in the clouds and other signs that were taking place before that great and notable Day of the LORD. I believe God had this man Josephus write these accounts. There is one small paragraph that speaks of Jesus when He was alive in that day. Interesting, the reference to the "Annals of Jewish History". May I recomend that this space be watched, till fulfillment:The Future History of the Church, for a Messianic take on these events.

IRONMAN wrote:I'm doing what God told me to do, warn of the impending tribulation. Be ye ready brethrenAmen... :cry:

Thankyou Aaron for your timely inpute. In ChristJeff

Taco, This is interesting. Do you interpret Genesis literally?Well, I think that Genisis is written in a style that suggests a literal reading, whereas revelation is prophetic and , as I see it, full of symbolisim. I don't expect to see beasts literaly rising up out of the sea to devour me. but I have often seen 'beasts' outwardly looking like lambs but speaking words that come from a 'beast like' heart. This type of imagery is easy (IMHO) to see. But, while there is deep meaning in the stories, Genesis is a history that fits in with the rest of the Scripture record. In relation to the first three chapters of Genesis, I am very open. I am open to the fact that each day may have been a long period of time. I am open to the gap theory, although I can't see it. I don't have all the answers but I do know that what is revealed is revealed for us to take heed of. As with revelation and other prophetic scriptures.Somtimes people seek to use the fact that some of the scripture is symbolic to do away with its claims on us. But this won't do. Christ's parables are obvioulsy symbolic. We are not literaly sheep that are lost, nor are we literaly wheat growing up with tares along side us. But these parables must have some meaning for us.

Karlthat's IRONMAN (in caps please) 8-) I'll find you the scripture in time.

Healingwaters,Wow! I'm glad you sent me those links to your preterist sites. I have found:1. The preterist view is unscriptural.2. The preterist view is refuted by early apostolic churches.3. The preterist view brings no culmination of the present evil world that the Bible says will be destroyed with fire and the elements will melt with fervent heat (didn't happen in 70 AD, check 2 Pet. 3). Leaves no "last day" in which God will judge the secrets of men once and finally.It is not of the traditions of the New Testament church (Scriptually or otherwise). It is a new doctrine that was not recognized by the early church founded by the apostles. I hope you have looked at the links I have provided. I am excited to hear what you think. I appreciate your stated willingness to side with the truth.Notice I haven't phrased my opinion here using the language "your view", but have chosen to use "the preterist view." The reason is that we shouldn't make this personal since it doesn't help us come to the truth. So maybe you can use the term "the futurist view" instead of "your view."Let me know when you are ready to discuss this. I can't promise a lot of time, but I will try to make do with the time I have. I trust you will do the same.Blessings,RT

Healingwaters,Here is a quote from Irenaeus who was taught under Polycarp the disciple of John the apostle:Irenaeus:"This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: “Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God.” The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped — that is, above every idol — for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavor in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God. 2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: “But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.”" [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV,1&2]"This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one “who feared not God, neither regarded man,” to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God, — that is, the earthly Jerusalem, — to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that city, and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: “And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.” ... And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation shall be brought into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Now three years and six months constitute the half-week." [Against Heresies, Book V, XXV, 2]"But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”" [Against Heresies, V, XXX, 4]This was written in the early to mid 100's A.D. Doesn't seem to tote the preterist line does it? In fact, it doesn't even deal with preterism. Just thought you would want me to back up my claim that the early church didn't teach preterism.Here's Hippolytus:"For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too, in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. ... The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem. And his seductive arts we shall exhibit in what follows. But for the present let us turn to the question in hand." [Hippolytus, Extant Works, Part II, 6]."Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says, And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease. By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 43, 47]"For he says, I shall make a covenant of one week, and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and libation will be removed. For by one week he indicates the showing forth of the seven years which shall be in the last times. And the half of the week the two prophets, along with John, will take for the purpose of proclaiming to all the world the advent of Antichrist, that is to say, for a thousand two hundred and sixty days clothed in sackcloth." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXI]"Then, when he is elevated to his kingdom, he will marshal war; and in his wrath he will smite three mighty kings, — those, namely, of Egypt, Libya, and Ethiopia. And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem, and will restore it again speedily, and give it over to the Jews. And then he will be lifted up in heart against every man; yea, he will speak blasphemy also against God, thinking in his deceit that he shall be king upon the earth hereafter for ever; not knowing, miserable wretch, that his kingdom is to be quickly brought to nought, and that he will quickly have to meet the fire which is prepared for him, along with all who trust him and serve him. For when Daniel said, “I shall make my covenant for one week,” he indicated seven years; and the one half of the week is for the preaching of the prophets, and for the other half of the week — that is to say, for three years and a half — Antichrist will reign upon the earth. And after this his kingdom and his glory shall be taken away. Behold, ye who love God, what manner of tribulation there shall rise in those days, such as has not been from the foundation of the world, no, nor ever shall be, except in those days alone. Then the lawless one, being lifted up in heart, will gather together his demons in man’s form, and will abominate those who call him to the kingdom, and will pollute many souls." [Appendix to the Works of Hippolytus, XXV].Blessings, RT

Romans 1125 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this secret: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob. 27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers, 29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. 30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

The word Anti- means instead of. Not only against.I will tell ya'll that if you can't recognize today’s false prophets, you will not recognize the Anti-Christ. He will be likeable and many will call him "Christian". Even the Disciples did not know it was Judas(who is a type of anti-christ) who would betray Jesus.

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