A Question about "God granting repentance"

As I have listened to the way this phrase has been applied in discussions here on the forum and with other believers in my own circles, I have questions and concerns as to how this concept of "granting repentance" should be accurately understood.

Several passages are quoted when discussing the idea of "God granting repentance", one of the primary being
Acts 11:18 - "And having heard these things, they were still, and glorified God, saying indeed it is so that also to the Gentiles God has given repentance unto life."

As I read this verse, it appears to me that these Jews are simply coming to the realization that not only is God seeking to redeem Israel to Himself, but He is also now actively seeking to redeem ALL of the nations to Himself as well. It does not appear to me that the statement should be taken to mean "God granted these certain men repentance."

How should we accurately understand the idea of "God granting repentance?" Is the cross of Christ God seeking to grant repentance to the entire world (whosever believeth) rather than destroying the world? "For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that THE WORLD through Him might be saved." Does this verse mean that God is granting repentance to the world rather than destroying it? Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Does God desire for all men to be saved?

Is this what Paul understood when he wrote Romans 3:23-24 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY as a gift.." The grammar of the passage clearly indicates that this justification is directly intended for the all who sinned.

Is it possible that "being granted repentance" should be understood as God's desire that no one perish but for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth?

It seems that many take the idea of God granting repentance to some men to be that He does not give all men this opportunity. Is God's design to raise up witnesses, and send them forth to preach the good news, God granting repentance to the world?

How did God grant repentance to Nineveh? Was He granting them repentance through the preaching of Jonah?

And was God saying through Ezekiel, that He never delights in the punishment of the wicked, but that His desire would be that all men "repent" and live? Would this not indicate that God in His heart is willing to grant repentance to all men?

The other passage often interpreted and applied in a way that causes me to have questions is Paul's instruction to Timothy. In this passage, Paul is instructing Timothy how to deal with those who are opposing him. The statement often quoted to indicate that God must grant repentance to an individual is this - "peradventure that God will grant them repentance unto the full knowledge of the truth..."

Should we necessarily deduct from this statement that we can not assume God desires for all men to come to repentance? Is Paul really telling Timothy, that we can't really know whether God will grant repentance to someone? Or, are we to understand that we as believers should always "leave room for repentance" like Peter wrote? Are we to always hope that men will come to repentance?

I realize that for anyone to experience repentance is a gift from God according to His wonderful grace. But if God has chosen the way that this gift of repentance is to be experienced is through the hearing of the gospel, then He does in fact desire for all men to come to repentance. The gospel and its good news is genuinely for all men, and God genuinely desires all men to experience salvation through repentance and faith.

I would be interested in reading the thoughts of others about this.

makrothumia

Thank you for bringing this up, it is thought provoking. It really does bring to bear the responsibility and privilege that we have of sharing the gospel to all the world.

God is willing to pardon ALL who repent and believe, but how shall they repent and believe if they don't hear the gospel like Cornelius and his family did?

It seems strange when you think of how reluctant the Jews were to accept that God would include Gentiles in His kingdom when that was what Jesus had commissioned them to do, "go ye into all the world."

In Christ,

I think one of the main things to get from that verse or verses like that is repentance is a gift and not some thing that man can produce in his sin full flesh when he wills an wants ,but rather when god will ,it not of him who will nor him who runs but of god who shows mercy ,,when i say sin full flesh i mean in the context spoken of ,where it says that Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh . This is speaking of the in carnation of the eturnal son in to a human body ,the human body is refured to as the sinful flesh.

1 So it is impossible for the sinful flesh to repent with out god granting repentance New International Version
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

New Living Translation
Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth.

English Standard Version
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

New American Standard Bible
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

King James Bible
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth.

International Standard Version
and gentle when refuting opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,

NET Bible
correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth

2 scriptures in Romans and Hebrews and Timothy 2;25 above
show that it is gods choice to width hold repentance with certain adversary's ,perhaps he will or perhaps he wont grant repentance ,in Hebrews it says that once some has fallen away it is impossible to repent god closes the gate ,,Romans suggests that even with tears esaw found no repentance tho the bible shows he wanted and sought for repentance with even a broken heart ,

If we couple these letters together and look at romans closely regarding election and predestination , the conclusion is that god does with hold is gospel call to some ,we don't no exactly why ,but god never does anything with a reason ,posable it is due to that fact that some have already denied greatly the light that is given to every man through concince and creation and so god is not oblgated to reveal more

Well I certainly disagree with Gary on this point but he already knows that so no biggie.

I think too much is read into those verses.

To me, it is simple. God grants repentance to those who repent.

In other words, in the verse originally quoted:"instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth" simply means that if these men are gently instructed they may see the error of their ways and repent, which God would certainly honor.

God doesn't somehow "put repentance" into someone who then regurgitates it back to Him. God granting repentance simply means that God is faithful to those who repent.

2Peter 3:9 has the phrase "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

In Luke 13 Jesus remarks about the accidents in the local news where certain men had died. He assures the disciples and other hearers that these men were no worse sinners than anyone else, but that if they (His hearers) did not repent they would likewise perish.

These passages in context strongly suggest that repenting is a wise choice of a sinful man who is seeking a right relationship with God. I agree with Todd, that the "granting of repentance" is simply a way of expressing that God is pleased with the action, sees it as proper humility, and accepts it in accord with the way He grants salvation.

I still see salvation as a covenant, with actions required on both sides to make it complete. Through the death and resurrection of Christ and the revelation of His desire to save us, His part was ready. We enter into the covenant with a choice to turn from selfish sinful ways and let Jesus' death count as our death. Behold, a covenant is established, sonship and eternal life are granted... through the repentance!

Obviously, many reject that even believing there must be some other way to be saved. I don't believe there is another way, and I don't make the rules.

ha what tod you disagree ,how dare you ....

i dont know tod sounds like a contradiction ,god gives repentance to those who have repentance already ,

Obviously god would not need to grant something that someone already has .

or where did they get repentance from unless it is through god granting repentance

GOd indeed puts repentance as a seed in man in the sinful flesh ,,the very beginnings of repentance means changing ones thoughts that then leads to changing ones actions ,..

HOW can the natural man ,that carnal mind which is at enmity toward god and not subject to the law of god ,{as paul puts it } change his mind about sin and god ,,only through the power and the workings of gods spirit can the carnal mind change and be put to death ,and renewed in the spirit of the mind to begin to think right thoughts about sin and god ..

how does one then continue to walk in the spirit and turn from sin and do the opposite of sin in the flesh ,,,,,...

Jesus said it ,he said he said he who commits sins is a slave of sin ,,,,,a slave is a slave held in chains a slave to his master sin ,not able to break the chains ,,but Jesus said if the son sets you free you will be free indeed ,,

the sinful flesh that Christ came in the likeness of has no power but is weak and sinfully subject only do the desires of the flesh ,,,,salvation is by grace ,and grace alone paul and the apostals made it verry clear that it is impossible to please god in the flesh ,and that in the flesh nothing good dwells ,,just weakness and evil desires corruption and contradiction .

god desires all to come to repentance ,,,yes all the elect that were chosen by him before the foundation of the world .. and he will get what he desires , because it is an election according to his good pleasure ,and becasue it is not of them that wills or those that run But of god who shows mercy

Remember Paul said he has created vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction ,and other are prepared for glory ...

I mean ,just look at the facts in romans shows that god did not grant esaw repentance and this choice to not grant him repentence was nothing to do with a for knowledge of his works but for others reasons even tho esaw seeked for repentence with tears he did not find repentance , never chose esaw before he was born ,,but instead he chose Jacob who was a deceiver and a lier ,he chose the more unlikely one ,,,,,romans shows a relatively clear picture of election that is not based upon they that will nor they that run but is based upon gods good pleasure and his purposes and mercy

this election that paul teaches in romans ,is compared to us who are being saved and those who are being lost ,if one has the courage to go ever and over these verses in romans with a prayfull heart ,the shocking truth quite clear tho one may derive extra reasons for how salvation occurs ...

It is strange also that when we look to just the crusafiction of christ ,we see 2 things that seem to opose and contradict yet as the fundamental catilist ,gods determint pour pus and foreknowledge and ultimit power and choice .was what nailed the son of god to the cross ,Jesus the high priest offers him self and the blood was released as the high priest under the power o the holy spirit spills the innocent blood ,the bible says it pleased the lord to crush ,,,,,,,yet yet

according the scripture evil men performed this my there own will and were gulity of murdering the son of god as peter said mmmm......but haw can that be

Well this i know for my bible tells me so ,so it reveals the over arching power and dermined power and plans of or creator the father the son and the holy spirit ,

Who sutains and unhold all things by the word of his power

AMEN

Hard to argue with all that.........

The Word clearly says that it is the will of God that
none should perish, but that all would come to
repentance.

We must ask the question why is it that if it is the
will of God that all would be saved, then why are
so many perishing?

Men cannot repent unless the Holy Spirit convicts
them that they have sinned, and then the man
can either accept or reject this conviction.

Repentance involves both godly sorry and a
turning away from sin in response to the dealings
of the Holy Spirit. The lost is convicted that he is
a sinner, and the Christian is convicted of specific
sins that must be confessed.

hi there brothers ,,im not trying to carry this on beoned reasonable discussion but this verse 2 peter 3.9

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.y,

the one above that is most often quoted is actual talking about the elect, peter is refuring to those who have been called out god this is not talking about every sinner in the whole wide world ,,this is why peter clearly says with you god is painent ,

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (NKJV)

Gary, I cannot see from this or the verses around it where you would get that 'all' is an 'elect'. There is nothing there that I can see to suggest that.
In fact if some are 'elected' to salvation (and therefore repentance), why would Peter say that God desires that they come to repentance when He has already pre-determined that they will??

hey Dav ,,,,,,,,,i get that idea from peter when he begins one of his letters by says to the elect according to the foreknowledge of god the father through the sanctification of the spirit unto the obedience of the sprinkling of the blood of Christ and then ,the according to peter were to the elect and the verse in question he says that why god is patient with YOU NOT willing THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH ,the context is clearly any of you who are the elect should perish ..

god desires them to come to repentance because it is through repentance and faith that god desires to save them ,,which ones ,,,quote Jesus ,,all those whom the father has given me will come

blessings to ya

While Peter does address his letter to Christians (the elect), all Christians still belong to the larger group of humanity. So I believe that the "us" being referenced in that verse means all of us as human beings and not just the elect. The word "any" means each and every one (all). If he meant to reference only the elect he would NOT have just used the single word "any". He would have said "the elect" or "any of the elect". I think that what is being communicated is that God is patient with you (Christians) and if someone doubts that fact he goes on to explain that God is patient with all of humanity and doesn't want anyone to fall short of arriving at repentance. If you interpret the word "any" as only referring to the elect, then the word "all" would also be referring to all of the elect only. Now why do we need to be told that God's will is that the elect should come to repentance when He knows full well that they in fact will all come to repentance? That line of reasoning is faulty.

Gary-

Do you believe God predestines some (actually most) people to hell?

Just thought I would cut to the chase.

i dont think it is faulty at all the bible clearly teaches election and predestination and that god will draw all those sheep who are his to him self and that he desires them all to come to repentance the faulty line of reason is when some trys to gloss over the teaching of predestination and election ..

well Tod when i read roman and god says through paul that he has prepared vessels of wrath before hand to make is wrath known and vica versea vessels of glory ,,,yes my belief is that god has prepared like he said vessels or humans of wrath with whom he has endured with much long-suffering ,

i dont think i can do scriptural gymnastics and make that say some thing else ,the same with the 2 peter verses my fiend is doing cartwheels with, i dont think it being honest with the scripture ,,,,,but by view is that we dont really know why god elects some and predestines to heaven and hell ,i dont feel god shuts his all seeing eyes and randomly chooses some no , i dont think scripture teaches that

Thanks Gary, but from a practical standpoint it doesn't seem to matter if is random or not. Either way, it stinks for the person who is not predestined to be saved.

Of course this is assuming your paradigm is correct, which I most adamantly do not believe.

We know that Jesus said that no man can come to Him except the Father first draw them. We know that the conviction of the Holy Spirit must be present for repentance and salvation. In my opinion, this is a close as we can get to saying that God only grants certain men repentance. Here, partially, is why.

Remember Paul said he has created vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction ,and other are prepared for glory ...

Actually, scripture does not say that God created vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction. The context of Romans 9 is in answer to question about the election of Israel. Paul is making the point that God chose whom He chose (the literal people of Israel) as His chosen people in order to bring forth the Messiah, and if anyone has objections they need to take it up with God. So, when Paul says in verse 16 that it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy, he is not speaking of salvation or of repentance, but of God's choice of Israel as His people. Again in verse 22, the same topic is being dealt with. Paul never said that God created vessels of wrath, but rather this. What if God, willing to show His wrath, ENDURED with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fit for destruction. In other words, what business is it of yours if God showed mercy to Israel over and over and over again when all their actions ever warranted was His wrath? What business do you have of questioning God about showing this mercy to Israel when He destroyed other nations for far less? What right do you have to question his election of ISRAEL. The context is critical. Paul is not teaching us anything about election where new covenant salvation is concerned. He is giving a lesson on election where old covenant Israel is concerned.

In Acts 11:18 and in Acts 5:31 we see the phrase, "granted repentance". In both cases, the phrase is in a general sense meaning that God has given the ability to repent and receive salvation by grace through faith, the gospel, to Israel and to the Gentiles.

So this leaves 2 Tim. 2:25 as the only verse where God granting repentance appears. I have found that we need to let scripture be a commentary on itself. One verse cannot stand all alone, but needs to be witnessed by and commented on by other scriptures. We have many scriptures that speak to repentance being given to all men who will decide to turn to Christ. So it would appear to me that we are reading too much into this verse if we try to use it to forward the idea that God only grants repentance to certain elect individuals.

actaualy brother he did say that he created vesels prepared for destruction '''romans 9'22 International Standard Version
Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction...

He makes his case by comparing gods dealing with israle ,rather then doing some randam bible study of the old testamant ,, he makes it a personal thing by teaching the princaple as a new covenent truth ,and obviously is expecting to offend some people in the process so he says ;;;; rom,9

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?…

Now it has become very personal with paul antisapating some christians will blame god and say well its not right god to judge us if it is a predestend election thing going on and he goes on with his rebuke futher to say does not the potter have the power over the clay to make a vessel of honor and one for dishoner and so on ,,clearly showing gods power to creat and predestdinate is own people accoring to his own good pleasure ,as a potter does to his potery,,

then to be even more personal he said

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.…

and paul teaches new covent electing grace showing its not some randam bible study about israle as my brother lightly aserted but a present reality in the life of the apostal paul and the gentile converts in rome ..

brothers i dont want to derail the thread any more then it is

BUT the reality of god granting repentence to some and not to others ,,has its roots in what christ said ,,

A question , did jesus allways do the will of the father ????

i hope we can all says yes to that amen ,,now if he did the will of the father then evey pray offered to the father was jesus praying in the will of god by the holy spirit ,

New International Version john 17,9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Here we see jesus praying only for the elect and not for the world , and he also mentions those who are predestined to believe through the word of the apostals ,,

No desire to pray to save the rest of the world only those who the father had picked out , so the conlusuion is that if jesus prayed in the will of god ,then it must not be the will of god to save the whole world other wise jesus would have prayed for the world ..

So after medetating on or lords prayer and see the context to peters letter , it seems peter was talking about the saints coming to repentence ,and looking at pauls leter to timothey and seeing the context, is that gods wills all types of men to be saved ,slave and well as free men kings and queens and those of all rankings ,,,the biblical teaching is clearly that god doees not grant every one saving repentence ,but only those who our lord prayed for and whom the lord had in his mind who he calls the elect or chosen

ill grant you that bro ,that in some verse granted is used ina general way for sure ,but we shold not mince it

blessings

Is the gift of grace given to ALL men?

In Romans chapter 5, Paul compares the extent of sin's reach to the extent of the gift of grace. Just how extensive is the gift of grace? To whom was this "gift of grace" given?

vs 15 - "But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

vs 18 - "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

There are passages where some will read into the words "all" or "world" the idea of "election" and thus limit the actual word used in a way contrary to its grammatical intent. In these two verse it is very difficult to do this because no one denies that sin has reached "ALL" men.

Did Paul believe that the "gift of grace" was limited to "some" rather than all? We know that he believed sin "abounded to all men" but did he believe that grace "abounded to ALL men" as well?

The answer is NO! Paul did not believe that grace abounded to all men.

He clearly believed that it SUPERABOUNDED!

On Mars Hill, Paul made the following statement:

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent..." Acts 17:30 nkjv.

Again I ask: why would God command **all** men **everywhere** to repent, if He is only going to "grant" repentance to some?

If the "wrong," non-elect man repents, is God going to say "just kidding?"

"and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:16).

This really is not that complicated like some are trying to make it.

Christ died for the sins of the whole world, that includes every man's sins. Whosoever believes in Him has eternal life.

Salvation is God's free gift that is given to whosoever believes in Christ. "For as many as received Him, He gave the power to become the sons of God." (John 1:12) Salvation is given to "whosever". Man is without excuse. Salvation is given unto all, and it is by the grace of God that we are saved. All that receive the free gift of God will repent of their sins.

"When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." (Acts 11:18).

actaualy brother he did say that he created vesels prepared for destruction '''romans 9'22 International Standard Version
Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction...

I would encourage you to study that wording in the original greek and compare multiple translation. Again, the fact that the ISV translators used the word "made" does not mean that they were saying anyone was created for destruction. If we follow that line of reasoning, then Paul was saying that God created the nation of Israel for the specific purpose of destroying the nation of Israel. Remember that context is critical.

We must be careful that we do not read a presupposition into scripture. It is easy to do. When we presuppose a doctrine, then all scriptures seem to, in one way or another, support that doctrine. Israel, due to her continual backsliding and rebellion, were made fit for nothing other than destruction, but that destruction did not come because of God's great grace and faithfulness to the people whom He chose to bear His name in the earth. Look at Jer. 3:14. God will still extend grace to His backsliding children, Israel. The election that is described here has nothing to do with the new covenant and the gospel.

"Christ died for the sins of the whole world, that includes every man's sins. Whosoever believes in Him has eternal life."

Since the above is true in a sense, it is important to understand that it is also true "the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are on it."

Jesus' death is for one man- any man, all men, or no man. His death and resurrection are valuable to bring life to those who repent and come into covenant with Him, but are of no use to those who refuse to repent.

The death of Jesus enables God to save all men, but does not obligate Him to save any one.

Repent and live! It appears from scripture that when the bridegroom comes, no one rouses the sleeping virgins who brought no oil!

hey twayeb ,,brother if you would like to give us all a lesson on the greek text regarding a chapter go for it ill definitely be in that ,,but every time iv read one that iv found most of the greek scholars who translated the different versions have done a fine job . I randomly picked the isv,but was quoting a different version that said these vessels were prepared or fitted for destruction, either way the context was god was the potter an we are the vessels made or prepared by him you cant get around that but go to greek and show us that it doesn't men that ,but ill bet by bible that it means what it says . Im not getting hung up on a word , it is the principal that is being taught in romans and else where that im seeing ,,

I dont know what your reading when you said god was creating Israel to destroy Israel ,,is that in the greek text ,im not seeing that in any of the translations iv got

brother you should take your advice about presuppositions i fell that is what your doing ,,

theses verse and others is why i came to the conclusion i have ,rather then me thinking that god predestined in the first place predestination came after i had presumptions that it is all free will of man that controlled destiny.

A no brother i think you dead wrong i dont think that all scripture at first glance seems to support presuppositions

i think it takes time to blend scriptural context in tho one big context that does not contradict ,,and that's all im trying to do is weed out what seems like a contradiction

i realist the direct context of Israel election from among the nation has nothing to do with the new covenant ,but paul has used it among personal elections like that of jacob and pharo to teach a new testament truth ,,the spiritual mean so to speak ,and he applied it to our salvation ,there is no geting around that by degrading that part of the letter to the romans to an erelevent old covenant bible study that paul was having with the saints at rome ......

eveyond seems to get hung up on the word world or all men ,forgeting the jews use hypabole all the time

for instance when john the jew says in his letter that Jesus is the propitiation not for our sins only but the whole world ,,,he is saying this is not just for the jews but for the gentiles .when god so loved the word he gave him only son ,,it is just a general way of saying it hes not saying hes giving the whole world repentance and faith look at the context Jesus was only preaching to jews at the time only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ,,Jesus wold have wanted them to understand that god loved them so much he sent his son to them ,we know that bible also says says that god hates all those who do iniquity .

"Behold, the world is gone after him.” John 12:19 (The whole world at that time did NOT follow after him, but very large crowds in Israel did.

more hypa bole

luke 8…9His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. 10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

We see in the above verse that with held these vital truths from certaint jew not granted to them

he also said

25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;…
Cross References
John 8:47
Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Jesus did not say well ,you are not my sheep due to you your not believing

this is teaching that there are the elect of god who were Jesus sheep and he know who they were an they will hear and will repent and believe because there are predestined and god will work in them bother to will and to do he will open up there hearts to heed the words of god like god did to lyder when Paul preached

Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us.
She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira,
who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to
heed the things spoken by Paul.

and the others are not jesus sheep the elect the ones whom the father for knew before the foundation of the world ,and these are not granted saving faith and repentance but are the vesels of wrath prepared for destruction

2 peter 2,17
17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

phil#'19
For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;…

the us and them the elect and the reprobate ,not repentance granted whose end is destruction blackness is reserved for them ,,the vessel of wrath prepared for destruction

a fuller context

Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; 15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'…

in the end it was not granted to them and the result was no healing

The nature and character of God is perfectly expressed and demonstrated in His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 3:16,17
For God SO loved the WORLD that he sent His Son so that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. FOR GOD DID NOT SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD, BUT THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.

God is Love and He is fair towards all. Men are damned because they do not believe and trust in Jesus and because they do not repent of their evil ways. Any teaching that suggests that God calls all to repentance but only "grants" repentance to the elect and goes out of His way to make sure that the unelect don't come to faith and repentance and then condemns them to an eternity in Hell because they didn't believe and repent makes God out to be a diabolical monster. If this is true then that would mean that Satan wants all to go to Hell and God wants most people to go to Hell and this somehow "glorifies" God.

As I understand it, God granting repentance simply means that God enables a person to repent by giving them a revelation of their sin and their need for the Savior. God does not repent for them, that is something they must decide to do. They must count the cost. But God does prick their hearts to nudge but not force them to repent and believe.

As for the interpretation of Romans 9, there is much to say about what Paul is intending to communicate. The deterministic interpretation has been around for a long time and seems to fit the text if you aren't careful in your exegesis. The link below goes into an exposition of Romans 9 far better than I am able:

http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-do-you-respond-to-romans-9/

-Daniel

In Romans, Paul uses the word "ALL" and no one disputes how extensive this "ALL" is. Romans 3:23 - " For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I have never heard a Calvanist or Arminian ever suggest that this "ALL" was any less than every man who has ever lived except the Lord Jesus Christ.

With this understood, the following statement of verse 24 has its extent determined by the previous "ALL" of verse 23.
The statement is .... "And are justified freely by His grace."

The only people being refered to are the "ALL" who have sinned. Everyone who sinned has been justified is what Paul wrote. There is no other grammatical possibility.

Paul agreed with John. Christ's death was for "ALL" who sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They both understood that Christ tasted death for every man."

The only ones confused about who Christ died for are those with a systematic theology that find it difficult to simply state it as the first time reader would have understood it.

Very well stated Daniel. I certainly agree.

Unfortunately you might take some heat for linking to a Greg Boyd article, but I certainly am glad you did.

The point of what God is saying in Acts 11:18 is not a focus on if repentance is a gift, but rather the point being made here when read in context is that God is granting the gift of Salvation(Eph 2:8) to the gentiles not just the jews. It would be a good idea to start in chapter 10 or earlier for we read in chapter 10: 44-45

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Continue reading in chapter 11:1-18 and you will see the context carry over: Salvation not just for the Jewish nation, but also the gentiles. And from here on out the number of gentile believers begins to grow exponentially.
God chose to give us the ability to repent through the power of His Holy Spirit in the work of prevenient grace.

John 16:8
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

hey makro i think that verse you speak of definitely doesn't mean all are justified ,regardless ,where we know as a fact all have sinned ,only those who have been given the measure of faith are justified {paul used the term measure}

so the all in that verse is not speaking of the whole world but ALL the faithful ,,so that line of reasoning doesn't cut it ...

i think that artificial boyde wrote is way of the mark .
Pauls reason for writing the letter was not to convince the jews that god wants to save the gentiles ,but rather as paul wrote him self ,to convince the doubters of gods election and sovereignty . Thats way he address the issue of the doubtful ones who say ,who can resists gods will ,and why does god still find fault ,,if god elects in that way as he did with Jacob and esaw ,,we should let scripture interpret it self in many cases rather then inject a hypothetical reason like he has done ,which is obviously not being taught in the text its self
Also so he doesn't deal with any of the other scripture that literal teach that god grants faith and repentance to some and not others like this one for instance ;;;;;

john 6;64

;;;;But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

faith was not granted to some acording to Jesus .

we know the bible says jesus is the other and finisher of our faith ,and that god deals to each man a measure of faith.

but just look to history

> how many pagans died during the ministery of Jesus and the three years he preached repentance only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel .

its obvious many pagans died and went to hell wile Jesus refused to offer repentance to the majority of romans he called them dogs and said it wasn't right for the dogs to get the children s bread

and after that how long did it take before the gentiles started to get saved in the apostals ministry's ,after peter received the vision ,,god never granted repentance or faith before that time to but only a few who were more then like Jewish converts .....

It is very clear that god doesn't grant every one repentance

and then we hear about how god grants repentance to a muslim who is jail who has a vision of Christ and is converted ,with out really hearing the gospel ,as paul did his conversion ,,,he know god could do that to millions and millions of people but he doesn't grant that ..

I think people just get all sentimental with there pet doctrines and forget about the facts and gloss over scripture ..

but praise god we can all still love each other i know i would much rather be praising god with you all then on my own or in some liberal church ..

thank for your commendable attitudes and peaceful discussion

Dear brother,

I believe faith comes "from the thing heard" and "the thing heard from the word of Christ." I believe that Jesus Christ and the word of the gospel He proclaimed is the gift of God that enables all men to believe.

Paul's word to the Ephesians explains how he himself understood their being included in this wonderful grace of God in Christ. "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation””having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

The "hearing of faith" was foundational to Paul's preaching. The word of Christ, the hearing of the gospel is the power of God that enables men to believe. Those who mix with faith the good news that they hear will be saved.

The sin of unbelief is not a passive inability but an active, willful refusal to be persuaded by all the gracious evidence that God has provided to make Himself known.

The writer of Hebrews underscores "the sin of unbelief" as the reason those who died in the wilderness were condemned.
"For we have had the gospel preached to us just as they did, but the message they heard did not profit them because they did not mix it with the faith of those who believed."

I believe Jesus Christ is the grace of God given to all men and that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.

This is how I understand John 3:16 - that God loved the world in the very same way that Moses provided a means for those bitten in the wilderness to be saved from death by venom. Jesus Christ lifted up has been set forth as a propitiation for all who will look to His shed blood in faith.

We gain access into this grace through faith, we stand by faith, and this faith wherein we have access and stand is enabled by the very word of the gospel of Christ - the good news to every man.

All who by faith become partakers of Christ are sealed by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of faith. This is how they become "the elect."

makrothumia

isay amen to that even tho i dont agree on all the fine details

Yes brother Tuc, I do know brother Don and his family. They are wonderful saints.

Also, I understand the difference in how we understand "what God has done from the very beginning." Please know that although I see it differently, I recognize and respect the sincerety of those who understand it as you do.

If God had not chosen to save and to provide every facet necessary in the grace given in Christ Jesus, no one could believe. We do differ some, but I hope it is far less than some would make it.

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in Christ Jesus and may even in this we presere the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

"the elect became the elect by what GOD has already done - not anyone's response to it."

Not if God is electing a class of persons vs individual persons.

This is worth highlighting as I think it is a key fact....

Alan wrote:" The sin of unbelief is not a passive inability but an active, wilful refusal to be persuaded by all the gracious evidence that God has provided to make Himself known."

Another Key truth is...." Faith comes by hearing the word of Christ."

Faith is provided and 'gifted' in the word of the gospel. Those who CHOOSE to HEAR that word HAVE the faith that it contains to respond. Jesus said many times "Let those who have ears HEAR"! You can hear, but not really HEAR. To HEAR is to pay attention to the word of the gospel. Think about the parable of the sower. Those on the hard ground had the seed snatched away. They 'heard' it, but did not understand it.

Well said TMK.

Here's some great resources on the theology of corporate election.

Russ

http://evangelicalarminians.org/?s=corporate+election

i think it takes time to blend scriptural context in tho one big context that does not contradict ,,and that's all im trying to do is weed out what seems like a contradiction

i realist the direct context of Israel election from among the nation has nothing to do with the new covenant ,but paul has used it among personal elections like that of jacob and pharo to teach a new testament truth ,,the spiritual mean so to speak ,and he applied it to our salvation ,there is no geting around that by degrading that part of the letter to the romans to an erelevent old covenant bible study that paul was having with the saints at rome ......

eveyond seems to get hung up on the word world or all men ,forgeting the jews use hypabole all the time

Bro. Gary
We have to be careful in trying to eliminate what we perceive to be contradictions. Perhaps there is no contradiction to eliminate. I don't think we can attempt to blend context into one overall context. When we attempt either of these things we often stretch scripture to a place it was not intended to go.

You spoke of hyperbole in the context of scriptures that seem to indicate that grace and repentance is extended to all rather than to a group of those who are elect. If that be the case, how do we determine which scriptures are examples of Jewish hyperbole and which are not. Perhaps Romans 9-11 is hyperbole.

Do you see the point I am trying to make? I believe when you look at the phrase you quoted from the ISV in other translations, you can get a very different idea from the text. When you research the meaning of the words thus translated, you can see that the idea that certain people were created for wrath is a forced translation rather than a natural outflow of the scripture. It is just not plain enough to be dogmatic and is one of those verses that presupposition can greatly influence. This is especially true in light of the multitude of other verses which very plainly state that grace and repentance is offered to all who will come to Christ.

I stated that your proposition taken in the true context of Romans 9-11 would lead us to the conclusion that God created Israel for the express purpose of pouring out His wrath on Israel, I was trying to apply what you were saying to the literal context. I did not mean that this is what scripture teaches. If we are free to say that Romans 9-11 serves a broader context and can be applied to the gospel and salvation of all men, including Gentiles, then we must also say that it can serve the specific context in which it is written, and my statement is the logical conclusion of applying that interpretation to the literal context.

Hope that clears up what I was trying to say.

The point of what God is saying in Acts 11:18 is not a focus on if repentance is a gift, but rather the point being made here when read in context is that God is granting the gift of Salvation(Eph 2:8) to the gentiles not just the jews. It would be a good idea to start in chapter 10 or earlier for we read in chapter 10: 44-45

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Continue reading in chapter 11:1-18 and you will see the context carry over: Salvation not just for the Jewish nation, but also the gentiles. And from here on out the number of gentile believers begins to grow exponentially.
God chose to give us the ability to repent through the power of His Holy Spirit in the work of prevenient grace.

John 16:8
8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

rneiman: It is such a blessing that repentance unto salvation has been offered to me as well as to Israel. It seems like this has been pressed upon my mind and heart more and more as time goes by. I deserved only hell and damnation. I was offered a gift of grace that I did not earn or deserve. What an amazing thing that God used Israel to bring forth Christ through Whom all nations of the earth, including me, are blessed with right relationship with God through faith.

Who is it that Paul knows is the only one to pray to that can give righteousness, understanding and wisdom of Christ,to sanctify us and make us know the Christ born again in us, by the redemption power of His own Son, by His resurrection from the dead to the eternal life Seed of God birthed in every believer?

Abraham' seeds unto the flesh, Gods' Seed in Abraham as to the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus our Lord the only Seed we have unto salvation.

Ephesians 1:16-23 Cease not to give thanks for you , making mention of you in my prayers ; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ , the Father of glory , may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him : The eyes of your understanding being enlightened ; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling , and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints , And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working of his mighty power , Which he wrought in Christ , when he raised him from the dead , and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality , and power , and might , and dominion , and every name that is named , not only in this world , but also in that which is to come : And hath put all things under his feet , and gave him to be the head over all things to the church , Which is his body , the fulness of him that filleth all in all .

Study this and the seventy seven other direct implications of our in Christ position in scripture that God has placed us in Christ by He that is birthed in us, making us a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord and Life in God. There are a total of 227 verses which pertain to us in Christ and He is us. That surely should give birth to only one repentance, one redemption and One Grace granted to each of us in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

When were we crucified with Christ now revealed for His elected and chosen saints in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world as scripture clearly speaks to,
"chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world".

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Joh 17:24; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:20 In Him before the foundation of the World.

What work of redemption-repentance, sanctification-Grace is the only work that is valid in Christ Jesus?

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Who' ears do we have to hear and eyes to see?

In Christ 77+150=227: Phillip