Prophetic Credentials.....

Thank you for this Lahry.The message that the Lord has given me from the beginning of 2002 is that of idolatry and adultry among His people.It is one thing to preach repentance to those who are not in the church (the body of Christ), but preaching it among the church is a different story. They will find every way to discredit you. That's ok, it's in the Lord's hands. Trust and obey. :)Surrendered to Him, Chanin

What does a true prophet do? Before they speak to mankind let me ask YOU---what are they doing while they are standing in the presence of God? How long are they standing there in His presence? Answer me will you!! What conditions thier cry for repentance?????Answer me ! In repentance writters and preachers I don't hear a broken heart full of love and mercy, just a pointing finger quick to give blame. Look to Abraham who interceded several times, and in more than one instance for individuals who had caused him great harm or loss. Look at Moses or even Paul who would have gone to an eternal hell if God would just spare Israel. Before one speaks the judgement of God on a church---society----city---or nation, are they ready to accept that judgement on themselves instead? THE MAIN PURPOSE of a prophet is to stand in the presence of God on behalf of mankind and to absorb the love of God for His creation so that even in judgement people will know that God is Love, and its for the highest good of man that He rebukes and chastens , corrects and judges. Brokeness and love pour out with every word. Agape' conditions all that they say and do. Stand in His presence and learn to be still.

Brother Lahry,This is cut from a thread a while back entitled:What Is A Prophet's Reward? (5/19/04" ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1985&forum=35#12751This was my reply ... hope it's relevant to your thread ...In the natural I see it as, persecution, rejection, alienation, doubt, and sometimes fear are primarily a prophet’s reward. These because the majority of folk (both saved and unsaved) treat with apathy, suspicion, disdain or outright animosity those who bear witness to the truth ... In the natural the price of this office is to seem to stand alone, if not of benefit socially with some small remnant of like minded folk ... As with Jesus, if we've really recieved Him as our ultimate Man of God, and really practice His admonitions, we will recieve in the natural, and in short order, persecution and rejection.But now in the supernatural (praise God) you'll sense a mountain top intimacy of prescence with Him that few know ... And also a most wondrous sense of security even in the face of most direst situations, because scripture attest that all needs of God’s true prophet are miraculously met ... Which is why Bro. Ravenhill remarked that a true prophet has no concern for his/her earthly needs, because God has already made them materially self sufficient (which in Elijah's case sustained others), via whatever or whomever means He choses ... This is why I personally have no fear of coming judgements, financial collapses, etc. ... Prophets may appear as men in bondage to the natural (worldly), but are totally free in the supernatural (spiritual) ... A prophet's primary message is to "REPENT", it's the last word Jesus spoke to us (His Church) in the Revelation to John ... A (true) prophet's ultimate reward is that he is already the first fruits of what the Father has put on his lips to proclaim ... A (true) prophet cannot bring the message without becoming the message first ... Recieving a prophet's reward is in the decisive act of accepting the message of repentance itself ... Anyone recieving, accepting and acting on the word of repentance from the true man of God can expect the same divine security (from whatever the word from the Lord is on his lips) as the prophet.This was sent to me, see what you think:BIRTH IS THE PROPHET'S REWARDThe word of the Lord came to me saying:You hear Me, yet you hesitate—what does it matter how you hear Me? You hear Me! What you hear from Me through the pain in your own heart will shake nations! You fight being where I have placed you in the Body. Your strength comes from Me. You receive from the root of prophecy that burns in your bones, and from the longing for what you see and cannot hold in your hand. You cry out for others, yet you struggle with your own spiritual development.Your course is charted, your way is chosen by the Lord. You are suffering the birth of creation in the sons of God in Christ with those who are in the fellowship of the Godhead, walking in the creation of new life, into old things having their roots there that have gotten lost along the way.Dig deeper! That is your calling--the voice of the prophet that speaks out in a dry land! You hate the darkness and suffer as you see the dry leaves fall into oblivion! You cry to be delivered from this place in Me, but deliverance will come to others through your desire and through the desperate cry of the Father in your own heart.You suffer what all prophets have suffered: Isolation, loneliness, and rejection. But it is in and through this that the birthings take place, that the anointings are given to others. It is through your desire that they will birth forth into the kingdom. Can't you see that the desire and desperation in your own heart is birthing forth the children with the life of the Father?You carry the burden of the Lord—remember this! I carried this burden while I walked in the earth, and it was only the Father's voice that could ease My pain and grief. You live in a time of shallow people. You hear Me child, even when you don't want to hear Me. Your gifting cries out in your bones for relief, yet you find none, because the heart of the Father is crying out for His children.You are in the birthing process to do birthings. Does a mother not have pain? And so it is with you. Yes, you follow a road you have not chosen, but it burns in your heart because I have chosen it. You thirst because I thirst, and cry out because I cry out. I cry for the children who do not hear, the children whose hearts have been seared with a hot iron, children who cannot see or know their Lord without the life of the Spirit. My children are in captivity; can't you see this?In your struggle you will reach your goal—know this! You are poured out in Me as a living sacrifice of the Lord of glory. There is only one road to glory, and you're on it. You give up your life for My will and purpose, and then I bless you with seasons of rest in the glory. Remember that when the babies are born, there is great joy and refreshing in My presence! The voice of the Lord speaks to you and you hear!Not all pathways are the same. Enjoy other's ways and seek your own from the face of God. This is the water that satisfies your thirst. Your tears that have been spent in the struggle of life while in the flesh will be remembered by the Father. And your desire for Me is great, even in your confusion and struggle. But at the end of your journey, there is life and joy in the Father's house. )))I find all these words so comforting and especially these, "You are in the birthing process to do birthings" ... What's a prophet's reward? ...Birth pains! :beard:

Lahry This might be a bit off the topic, but I think it is interesting. I am leading a bible study in Revelation, and last week we looked at Chapter 14. Verses 6&7 of chapter 14 have a bit to say on the end time message. Rev.14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindered, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of his judgement is come: and worship him that make heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountain of waters. I find this to be a bit of a diffrent message than we are are hearing from "Christian" circles.. lol Greg

Dohzman,Shouldn't that have been "we've" all missed the mark? ... But bless God for the indwelling power of Holy Spirit to press on anyhow! ..."Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" ... Phil.3:13,14Dohzman you wrote;Quote:"What does a true prophet do? Before they speak to mankind let me ask YOU---what are they doing while they are standing in the presence of God"? Answer: Initially trying their very best to convince God that they're not worthy ... At which point He says, "I know, that's why I'm about to clean you up "first" to My task" ... Then it's a lot of heat and withering to "self" ... Quote:"How long are they standing there in His presence? Answer me will you"!! Answer: For as long as God deems ...Quote:"What conditions thier cry for repentance?????Answer me" ! Answer: Being shown God's love, tolerance and pain of their own individual willful disobedience towards His love, mercy and grace and having the pain of such "error" magnified to the size of an apostate Church, Nation or world inside their own small spirit ...Quote:"Before one speaks the judgement of God on a church---society----city---or nation, are they ready to accept that judgement on themselves instead"? Answer: i can't find anywhere in scripture where this is a pre-requisite to such service by God except in Christ's case (show me if i'm wrong) ... Seems to me that when it comes to us humans God just chooses as He pleases whomever it pleases Him to choose ... Quote:"THE MAIN PURPOSE of a prophet is to stand in the presence of God on behalf of mankind and to absorb the love of God for His creation so that even in judgement people will know that God is Love, and its for the highest good of man that He rebukes and chastens , corrects and judges"Answer: Interesting ... i was more under the impression that the main purpose of a prophet was to go and do exactly what God tells Him to do whether he likes it or not, especially as in the case of Jonah who neither understood God's love and mercy toward Niniveh and certainly didn't agree with God about it ... i dare say it's a much easier task to take on the merciful mind of God in the calling, but as with Jonah God was determined to use him no matter how he felt in the calling ... Quote:"Brokeness and love pour out with every word. Agape' conditions all that they say and do" ...Answer: i'm not to sure about this one either ... God in the OT, thru His prophets sais some pretty harsh things, so much so that it made folk wanna kill the messenger ... God may have broken Ezekiel to Himself, but then He turned right around and used Ezekiel to speak harshly to them, although it is true that God always speaks consolation to His own after condemnation of error ... Quote:"Stand in His presence and learn to be still" ...Summary: Listen to Him via His "true" prophets and learn of what and when to get busy! ... :-P

What can we say about the prophetic man? He is one who get's his word from the only One who can give it. The prophetic utterance has its origin in the heart of God while the false prophetic utterance has its origin in the heart of man. How do we know if a word has been birthed in the heart of God. My guess, as good as any, is what is the end or object of the word spoken. If it spurs you on to anything other than God Himself then it is false. Much of the current prophetic phenomenon spurs you onto prosperity, health, times of refreshing and on and on. The prophetic Word, when issued will be more likely to require of you something...than to give you something. The awesome thing about this requirement is if submitted to will bring greater peace, harmony, ad relationship with the Living God.

Jonah--lets look at what he said in ch 4 the results of God's character note verses1-2. Eze--I'll take him on last since he's a complex character.

Moses Note Ex chapter 32:33 note the word Blot me out---- If you'd like I can go from prophet to prophet and show you thier heart and thier willingness to be damned if the mercy of God would befall His people. But this one example will do. Also note Paul's intercession for Israel.

Your answer here has no foundation. By implication all who have stood in the presence of God have seen thier own need in the face of his holiness. But thats not what compeled them to cryout to thier generation. It was a fear of God, by fear of God I mean they hated sin and every act of disobedience, but with exacting love they spoke to thier generation. Love is and will always be the fulfilling of the Law and the prophets, for them to any less would have meant they brought God's word with unclean hands and lips.

Dohzman you wrote;"Jonah--lets look at what he said in ch 4 the results of God's character note verses1-2. Eze--I'll take him on last since he's a complex character".Hmmmm i thought i did in my answer: Interesting ... i was more under the impression that the main purpose of a prophet was to go and do exactly what God tells Him to do whether he likes it or not, especially as in the case of Jonah who neither understood God's love and mercy toward Niniveh and certainly didn't agree with God about it ... i dare say it's a much easier task to take on the merciful mind of God in the calling, but as with Jonah God was determined to use him no matter how he felt in the calling ...The reason why i answered your post is because of your "generalizions" of ALL (modern) prophets of God by your statement;Quote:"In repentance writters and preachers I don't hear a broken heart full of love and mercy, just a pointing finger quick to give blame" ...... You don't know ALL of God's present day prophets, and therefore should not judge them ALL by the ones you're familiar with ...... and your post title;"You've all missed the mark"! ... which is why i attempted to get across that WE ALL (including yourself) sin and fall short, but strive for the mark of excellence anyhow ... Bottom line is you seem to be harder on a man of God (which is why i brought up Jonah) than God is (thanks be unto Him that some of us even when called to His service have to catch up with His love and mercy) ... So no need to pull your hair out about Ezekiel, i'n not looking for a long drawn out debate, i've said my piece ... But i do praise God that you're not in a position to have to recieve a repentance message from any modern day prophet, that's a real blessing for you right there ... But lets both hope and pray in His divine mercy and long suffering love that those who need to will ...Br. R

Answer---- They never left. They walked with an ever present realization that they lived in the very presence of God. In many cases thier humanity came through much like Peter when he was walking on the water, but God always came through for them----even when Jeremiah accused God of tricking him, btw God blessed him after that statement.

Brother Dohzman ... A question just hit me! ... Are you a prophet?

Matt 10 : 41-42 Most don't really understand what a prophets reward is, its different than a prophets lot in life. Being poor we make many rich. The reward people recieve from thier association with true prophets of God is very diverse, healings deliverences provision---just look at the result of the mircles and results of the prophets of old and the interaction with people who did good toward them or who came seeking from them the Word of the Lord. Note there were 2 types of people who came, thoughs with sincer3e hearts and thoughs without sincere hearts, each got a different response.

No

See brother Dohzman,That's the thing that always puzzles me about God ... The ones like you who already know what "the calling" is supposed to be down to the "T" He bypasses ... But the ones who don't and most often don't even want to be called He chooses ...Man ... who can understand the mysteries of the Most High?God bless!Br. R ... :beard:

I rember while preaching on the streets one night a man took a gun out put it to my head and tried to pull the trigger--- he shook with all his might as he tried to shoot me but couldn't. Was i scared? YES! My wife and children, my concern for them mainly. Afterwards I asked the Lord what would have happened if that man had killed me. I heard this and felt His presence, "well done thou good and faithful SERVANT enter into the joy of thy Lord". I'm not a bible teacher or scholar , I'm not very learned at all, but my hearts desire is to serve God and people any way I can. But most of the time I'm misunderstood. Only thing I want to hear when I leave earth is well done thou good and faithful servant. Bro. Daryl

The only one biblically to claim the office of a prophet was Jezebell and the false prophets. As to harder on the ministry? Yep James 3:1-2 says those who instruct will be more severally judged. It has to do with , "to whom much is given much is required". And while I don't personally know each and every man or woman who has the administrational office of a prophet or prophetess I do know some. As to Jonah ? I think God was pretty tough on Jonah. When's the last time you got ate up by a large fish for disobedience?--------------maybe there's hope for me yet? what ya think?

No matter what giftings I may or may not have, I still think we should just worry about being a "brother" or "sister"- a servant (as Bro. Daryll says). It's not like God isn't going to use you just because you refuse the title of prophet.Oswald Chambers was a prophet. I am sure he never even thought of that when he was alive.hmmmmmm. just thoughts :)In His love, chanin

chaninin being a servant of God one may end up being a prophet of God too.

My basic point in all my posts is this. Drop the title who really cares. Jesus will only say well done thou ----good----and----faithful----Servant, not O mighty prophet or come on in you super apostle or great teacher. I like the word servant, it levels the playing field , keeps us all as equal, humble. When rewards are handed out in heaven it'll be the weak and the insignificant who shine the brightest. That dear sister who seemed to timid to speak but holed up with God in prayer and moved mountains while on her knees. That brother who worked over time because he had a burden to support missionaries or other ministries and working overtime was the only way he could do it. They are the great ones. There are a few who have true spiritual eyes as to what the body of Christ really is, Jesus said we'll be known by the love we have one to another. edit............................................................................................ That's something that never leaves---it's 24/7. It conditions my every thought, all my prayers and all my actions. If we can get beyond a title we might actually do something that has eternal value in the sight of God. Bro. Daryl

in being a servant of God one may end up being a prophet of God too.Exactly!Surrendered to Him, to be used as He pleases, Chanin

chanin :-D thanks!

Bro DohzmanIt is important that each one of us recognize our particular offices in the kingdom of God and govern ourselves accordingly. If God says to you you are a prophet then that's what you are, if it requires you to tell people that or people recognize it and call you as such then that's all good. In servitude to God we are indeed all equal whether one is called to heal, preach, teach etc. It is important also that we be able to distinguish among ourselves which believer does what so that when comes a time for the body to call upon that believer's office then we can say, "oh you need a prophecy, go to brother so and so, need healing, go to sister so and so" etc.When rewards are handed out in heaven the ones who have done the most work for God will shine the brightest, it may turn out that those ones will be the most unlikely. In order to receive those rewards each of us MUST be sure of what our office is (prophet, healer, exhorter, teach etc) so we can work accordingly. I'm not sure what the last part of your post about speaking to the congressman was in reference to though, could you shed some light on that? And yes once we recognize the responsibility and power that comes with the office and let the Holy spirit move us accordingly, THEN we are getting somewhere, then we start depositing wealth into or heavenly acounts.God has said to me that I am a prophet, not sure why He picked me but He did. That wasn't a thing I asked for nor wanted but He laid His hand heavily on me and I realized that I had to do as I was told, after reading about Jonah I figured it would be better to just follow God than run away. Does this make me any better than one who has a different office? no, it means the way God deals with me and the nature of our relationship is tailored to that office and would be different than it would be for someone else in a different office. SO some things God may do with/to/through me He may not do with/to/through you and vice versa. I don't think it a thing to boast about but a fearful thing that GOd has given me a responsibility in the kingdom and it requires a deeper relationship with Him that I may become effective in all this. If you aren't a prophet that's cool, if you're a teacher, teach well as the spirit leads, in fact in whatever office you hold, execute the duties well in accordance to the spirit, that is the thing that matters.

There are differences in the gifting of the Holy Spirit which are open for everyone, and the administration of an office . One is on an as need basis in the local fellowship the Holy Spirit choosing who and when and the other is a 24/7 calling and doesn't nessarily include the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the same sense that they are displayed in the body visiabily. Reguardless either this way or that the body of Christ is matured.>>>>>>>>> you quote: It is important also that we be able to distinguish among ourselves which believer does what so that when comes a time for the body to call upon that believer's office then we can say, "oh you need a prophecy, go to brother so and so, need healing, go to sister so and so" etc.------------>that's dangerous theology and really isn't consistant with NT scripture or NT church historical accounts we have.

The same giftings are to operate with in the body of believers.for the edification of the believers.

Bro DohzmanI'm not entirely sure what you were trying to say in the last post, could you please clarify? How is it dangerous theology to know which brother to go and pray with when one is in need of something? I still maintain that we need to be aware of our offices and execute the duties that come with that in all excellence. is there something you have against prophets?

The same giftings are to operate with in the body of believers.for the edification of the believers. ?

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: In Acts they didn’t seem mind recognizing that Peter and John had a gift upon them. No we should not exalt one brother and say he is "better.” Look at a baseball team. No one that is thinking soundly thinks that the outfield is more important than a pitcher. If there were no outfield then the infield or pitcher would have to run and get the ball every time. If there were no pitcher then it wouldn’t work either. Every person has his or her part. We are one nicely joined body. I see no wrong in recognizing who is a foot, a nose, or a arm. Now I don’t think that one is more important than the other. I hope this all makes sense. Keeping the same analogy, you may think that yeah ok the pitcher could throw a no-hitter and not even need anyone else. Well he wouldn't last more than maybe (that’s a big maybe) more than one game, possibly two, but no more. This could be why so many preachers die out so quick. They try to be the pitcher that is not using his teammates in the field and throw a strike out every time. We must work together.

All the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to all believers. The labeling of one person or even a couple of people that you go to for say---a word of knowledge or prophetic word or healing leads to bondage and idolatry. That's why the jews of old couldn't reconize Jesus---they had Moses. Many of the word-faith movements were based on this mentality,i.e.---William Braham is one example amoung many. If one sits in an office of a prophet(I'll use that as my example since that's where we started) there's nothing that says that individual will speak acurately or with the mind of Christ. In this age of grace all believers have access to Christ Jesus and are encourage to seek Him. In the prophetic (NT) most of what's spoken is confirmation to that which the individuals usually already knew. All in all christians are being matured in the area of Love. That is the growing up into the full knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. A love that conditions everything we do. By this shall all men know you are MY DISCIPLES, by the love you have one to another. I knew a man who used to hear about peoples problems and sicknesses with in his local body of believers. He never told anyone but would go home and while others ate meals after sunday services he would fast and pray. Mircles happened but no one ever connected the dots. He never said a word. He just touched the heart of God. Much of what I hear on the subject of the prophetic is man based , even though people can justify that position with scripture. And its a very dangerous game to play when you get people looking to people for answers that only God should give his children. Enough said. Blessings Bro. Daryl

See brother Dohzman,That's the thing that always puzzles me about God ... The ones like you who already know what "the calling" is supposed to be down to the "T" He bypasses ... But the ones who don't and most often don't even want to be called He chooses ...Man ... who can understand the mysteries of the Most High?God bless!Br. R ... I put his quote here to show something. No love. Out of the same mouth came blessing and cursing, prophets don't speak thus since they know the mysteries of the power of thier words. Prophets that I know seem to have a powerful prayer life and an overwhelming love of the brethren. I enjoy much fellowship with thoughs I would consider prophets.

All the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available to all believers. The labeling of one person or even a couple of people that you go to for say---a word of knowledge or prophetic word or healing leads to bondage and idolatry. That's why the jews of old couldn't reconize Jesus---they had Moses. The gifts are available to all but not given necessarily to one person. I'm not saying that the person one goes and prays with becomes the substitute for the holy spirit. I'm saying that we should be aware of our offices so that if anyone has a need we can be of service to one another. I disagree that this leads to bondage and idolatry unless of course the spirit behind it is one of the enemy. that's my take on it and I guess we shoukld agree to disagree on that.

Hi guys,Forgive me for eavesdropping abit but I wanted weigh in on your interesting discussion...Prophecy, in the higher sense, is such a demonstrative and visible gift that I would think that one of the credentials for it would be clear evidence of the fruit of the spirit. The character and mind of Christ is what makes a man prophetic. I do not think that God will "transmit" a message that passes through the prophet without touching him. In other words, a prophet prophecies according to the the character of Christ within. "...out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water." In a way, spiritual maturity is prophetic. That is to say, a person or even church that is displaying the fruit of the spirit in their walk is invariably going to be doing so in their talk. This could include sober warnings, but more importantly prophecy reveals Christ, even to His church. "O LORD, please open our eyes that we may see."I have seen strong evidences of prophetic inclinations in some(or maybe it was self-confidence...)that was ahead of the character development of the person. Flatter an immature prophet and you've ruined him or her for years. Not to be controversial but the few people I trust that would qualify as "prophets" are wary of the designation precisely because it tends to attract ambition. So that's my two cents. A prophet without visible fruit of the spirit is a prophet without credentials regardless of how "accurate" the gifting seems. God's wanting to see His son transformed in us but often we just want our fortunes told. Perhaps that's why God makes it hard to be a true prophet. Blessings,MC

MC,Think you are getting at the root here."I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."Rev 19:10Without making it an over generalization, there seems to be a distinction in the tone of "I am a 'prophet'". As an example, consider;" 3. Lord Jesus, I come to Thee for spiritual preparation. Lay Thy hand upon me. Anoint me with the oil of the New Testament prophet. Forbid that I should become a religious scribe and thus lose my prophetic calling. Save me from the curse that lies dark across the face of the modern clergy, the curse of compromise, of imitation, of professionalism. Save me from the error of judging a church by its size, its popularity or the amount of its yearly offerings. Help me to remember that I am a prophet—not a promoter, not a religious manager, but a prophet. Let me never become a slave to crowds. Heal my soul of carnal ambitions and deliver me from the itch for publicity. Save me from bondage to things. Let me not waste my days puttering around the house. Lay Thy terror upon me, O God, and drive me to the place of prayer where I may wrestle with principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world. Deliver me from over-eating and late sleeping. Teach me self-discipline that I may be a good soldier of Jesus Christ."A.W. TozerOrdination covenant(Might add that this excerpt doesn't fully give justice to the thought, taken in it's entirety from the link brings out the expression better)

MCindeed you are right, any message that God sends through a prophect has a profound effect on him. It cleanses the prohpet and refines him and gives the prophet and insight into the character of God. This experience is beyond description, it's getting to know God, how cool is that? bearing spiritual fruit is he mark of someone who is getting to know God.

MC quote>>>>>So that's my two cents. A prophet without visible fruit of the spirit is a prophet without credentials regardless of how "accurate" the gifting seems. God's wanting to see His son transformed in us but often we just want our fortunes told. >>>>> I feel like jumping and screaming Amen here. Baalim was a prophet who sold his right of access for money and later showed Balak how to get Israel to move out fron under the Covenant of God with all its provision and protections. Many prophets---so called--- today do the same thing to the children of Jesus' Christ's today by getting them to walk outside of the light or the protections and blessings of God by promising them things to scratch thier itching ears. What's always been of interest to me is how much God is saying to the modern prophet, This is what I mean----The minor and major prophets, or at least what we have here to read, I mean that was the sum of a life time. It wasn't just a few weeks at some retreat but it was the Voice of God in the course of a Life time . Today we have people who hear a "thus saith the Lord" more frequently than did the prophets of old.That's scarey! And let's not forget that a marked sign of that office was healing, it's found throughout scripture both implied and acts done with tangible results. The Lord showed me in a dream?vision?I don't know what it was, but He showed me a well intentioned man take children that were not his own and spank them. In my dream I was highly upset as I realized that stranger had just spanked my children----he had no right, they were my children and as thier father I felt I knew best what they should have in the way of correction. The Lord than said to me thats what is happening all over in the Body of Christ. Well intentioned individuals correcting His children without His heart for His Chlidren. Then He asked me what I thought should be done to such---like Eze all I could say was you know O'Lord! Amen Bro. Daryl

Hey guysThis is a good thread guys. I do have a general observation, although I suppose that the title of the thread answers the question, which is, why all the focus on the prophets? I realize that the point of the thread was specifically to discus prophets but, there is such an apathy in the entire body of Christ, supposing that the fruits and discipline of the Spirit is reserved only for prophets and people in authority. There is no office in the body of Christ that can single handedly bring revival or express the Bride of Christ. That which applies to the prophet applies to all the other priest (ye are a holy priesthood-1 Peter 2:25). It is not only the prophets who are “strange” in their devotion to good but we should all be “ Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:13-14)Again, I believe that the prophet has been exalted beyond measure to the extent that many people who want to be serious about their service and devotion to God believes that they must be a prophet, this is just not so. The pastors, evangelists, teachers, ministers, exhorters etc all must be living the message they deliver, not just the prophets. It is easy to put pressure and requirement on the theoretical prophets but we all have a role to play in the body of Christ. A false exhorter is just as bad as a false prophet for, “whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Corinthians 12:26)James

Brother Daryl you wrote:"Br. R ...I put his quote here to show something. No love. Out of the same mouth came blessing and cursing, prophets don't speak thus since they know the mysteries of the power of thier words".Wow brother Daryl ...Sounds like you've made your "self" both my judge and jury ... Thank God that Jesus is my lawyer lest you also become my executioner ... :-P No brother Daryl you did not quote me to show that i have no "love", you quoted me because the statement was painful to your "self" and "self" always demands satisfaction ... My "self" jumped up the same way when i first read your initial post, and the above quote, but i asked Holy Spirit to help me tarry to the point of where He had preimmenence before i answered ... Actually none of us should have to be a prophet to know the power of words, or the meaning of true love in Christ ... You speak a lot about how someone else should love but didn't show "love" in your initial stinging "You've all missed the Mark" post ... So now in the spirit of agape and philos i'm gonna exhaust this ... If you go back and check my last post before the "are you a prophet" question you will see that i stated "i've said my piece" and had no intention of addressing you any further ... Then the question "hit me" so i restarted my computer and asked it ... i already knew you were gonna answer "No" ... Know why? ... Because anyone wrestling with the awful belief of calling of being a prophet of the Lord would know first hand it's painful anxieties, difficulties, questionings, anticipations and frustrations, and would not come across as harshly in accusation, demanding with all the CAPS and !!! marks of an ("Answer me!!!) as you did ... So when i posted ...Quote:"That's the thing that always puzzles me about God ... The ones like you who already know what "the calling" is supposed to be down to the "T" He bypasses ... But the ones who don't and most often don't even want to be called He chooses" ...That wasn't "curses" on you brother that was scripture in fulfilment to me ... ""For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence" ... 1Cor.1:26-29 ... It wasn't to far a stretch to think He calls the "unsure" to confound the "cocksure" ...Now i know the above scripture is more in comparisson to saved and unsaved, but God does seem to do the same thing within His Body ... Again, you are "cocksure" as to what a "prophet" is and isn't tho you don't have the "calling" ... i on the other hand believe i have the "calling" and am never to sure of anything within the calling ... i do it all on faith ... My whole walk in this calling is a constant "leaning on" and daily "relying on" Him to assure me to go on in this faith of proclaiming repentance and all associated with it because i'm sure of nothing in this "calling" like i am of His written Word, my salvation, and Christ crucified and now sitting at the right hand of the Father with all power, that i'm most "sure" of ... But His personal "words" to me from over 20 years ago which i've stated on other threads, the most important that Revival is coming to my church, i'm not sure of, it certainly hasn't happened yet as have none of the other things i believe He's said to me ... Even the "unction" to go and say "thus saith the Lord" to my pastor i question ... Or His instruction of me just this past Sunday to send a copy of Os Guinneses "Prophetic Untimliness" (with "dictated" notes) to two pastors He's assigned me to i question, but on the "gift of faith" (that's the only explanation i have for continually doing past not being sure) i go and do it anyway ... Any strides that i've made in the past 20 years in this calling have been made in inches as opposed to leaps and bounds all because of my not being sure ... i'm constanly beseeching Him for assurance "Lord can you please just make one thing come to pass"? ... I'm constantly asking Him to not let me be delusional in acting upon what i believe i hear as His instructions, and if it is Him and not satan, or me, then please keep me strong to turn a deaf ear to so many detractors ... To me the real test of this office is to do in faith past my own unsureness, as i've not had any miraculous burning bushes, damp or dry fleeces, or shining heavenly visitors to make me "sure" ... Now you on the other hand brother Daryl are sure, and all i said was that's why He didn't choose you to be a "prophet" because on this i am sure, that whatever it is that He has for us to do if it is to be done effectively, and to His glory, we must be weak in it that He may be strong ... We must be totally dependant on His definition and defining of us ... We must rely soley on Him to do thru us, and not us thru Him lest we get past Him in our own "self" assurance and possibly produce an Ishmael when He wants an Isaac via our total reliance on His assurance ... So it stands to scriptural reasoning that's why he has you in the calling of "street preacher" where as you said over on "NO POINT" you're not so sure of your "self" ... By the way i was moved by your testimony ...Quote:"I rember while preaching on the streets one night a man took a gun out put it to my head and tried to pull the trigger--- he shook with all his might as he tried to shoot me but couldn't. Was i scared? YES! My wife and children, my concern for them mainly. Afterwards I asked the Lord what would have happened if that man had killed me. I heard this and felt His presence, "well done thou good and faithful SERVANT enter into the joy of thy Lord". I'm not a bible teacher or scholar , I'm not very learned at all, but my hearts desire is to serve God and people any way I can. But most of the time I'm misunderstood. Only thing I want to hear when I leave earth is well done thou good and faithful servant". Bro. Daryl i can totally empathize with you on your "hearts desire" and the "misunderstood" part, and do ... i've said on more than one occasion that if our Lord even said to me at my standing before Him, "Well done my good, and not always so faithful servant" i'd be more than willing to accept that because it would be the truth ... i've been unfaithful to Him on a number of occasions, sometimes big time, but He's never, ever been unfaithful to me ... i've got all kinds of quirks, idiocycracies and things that just scream out "unfit for ministry ... unfit for service ... unfit for heavenly use" and on many occasions i've been known to chime into that chorus with my own lips ... "Lord i can't do this" ... "Lord i'm not fit to do this" ... "Lord there's got to be someone more qualified to do this" ... But then i hear God saying, "Stop calling unusable that which I've washed in the Blood of My Son, and empowered by My own Holy Spirit to My Own good purpose" ... You know when i first came on this SI Forum i was just like a fresh tapped oil well full of gush, now i sense in my spirit that i'm just about all tapped out this post feeling most draining ... Not much more to say here ... It dawned on me just the other day that all i believe is recorded as public record on this SI Forum and i thought to our Lord, "How will this fit into your plan"? ... For over 20 years now i believe that i have the prophetic calling ... When i first started out i foolishly thought the calling would bring "acceptance" but when it brought such scathing "rejection" that only escalated with each new "word", like Jonah i ran, and with a very bad attitude toward God and man ... You asked when was the last time i was in the belly of a whale, well not literally, but i can tell you what it's like to be in one spiritually, and like Jonah our Lord would not let me out till i cried "uncle" ... Since then He's brought me a mighty long way ... Of the list of questions you posed in your initial thread i stand by my answers to them tho you deem them incorrect ... So i have nothing to lose in my answers of ponderance over your remaining query ...Quote:"Look to Abraham who interceded several times, and in more than one instance for individuals who had caused him great harm or loss. Look at Moses or even Paul who would have gone to an eternal hell if God would just spare Israel. Before one speaks the judgement of God on a church---society----city---or nation, are they ready to accept that judgement on themselves instead"? To me prior to my calling "that judgment" you speak of (coming to the House of the Lord) was hanging over my head along with everyone elses anyway, i just didn't know it or my degree of contribution to it ... But after the calling is a whole different story, all of a sudden you see God's "pain" with yourself first then it's multiplied toward the greater "church---society----city---or nation" and it burdens you because it is His good pleasure to do so in making you a mouthpiece to His call to "repent" or else ... What i see of the prophets of old is that they not only had to endure the crapola of a stiffnecked rebellious house prior to the falling of God's chastisement, but also had to go thru it with the very hardheads whose disbelief of God's warning message thru them caused ... So bottom line brother Daryl is we're all in this together ... That's something Holy Spirit told me a while back about the Body of Christ, and that even if we are chosen in a "ministry" calling to the Body, and may be walking just a little more pure and holy because of that "calling", never should we point/think outwardly with a condemnatory "you" (or in your case you've) or "they" within His Body, but always "WE" ... i asked Holy Spirit to ever convict me of this, that it's "WE" no matter what in that we're all members of one Body ... That's why i attempted to lightheartedly engage you with the comment ...Quote:"Shouldn't that have been "we've" all missed the mark? ... But bless God for the indwelling power of Holy Spirit to press on anyhow! ... "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" ... Phil.3:13,14 ...But i guess you came loaded for bear, and i got in the way as the bear ...So if in fact by your estimation it's prerequisite that i be willing to take "the judgment" of the Church on myself in place of those offending God then brother Daryl i'm no prophet because i pray exactly otherwise, "Lord if it takes the falling of your terrible grace to turn your Church around then do it yesterday"! ... And if the proof necessary to the calling is that i'd be willing to go to hell for God to spare His Church the judgment we deserve for not heeding His warnings than i miserably fail again for hell is the one place i most desperately seek to stay out of ... Christ already came and paid the price to keep us all out of hell, and if any mans rebellious heart is sending him there then i for one will step aside and let him pay his own eternal price ... Brother Daryl you may in fact have such type of love but i'll tell you straight up ... "i don't" ... You know what's funny is that i've endured all types of negativity in what i believe to be my calling since from around 1984 or so ... i tried to escape it physically once only to be unctioned right back to the same pastor/church into right where i'd left off ... Now again i find myself desiring to escape, this time mentally, by telling God that i just don't have anymore faith past this year of 2005 to go any further in these i call my "personal" beliefs ... i even have a bulletin board in my kitchen with a heading directed at God entitles "2005 - Increase or Release", meaning "Come on God i can't keep this up any longer, i'm not getting any younger ... Either do what i believe i've heard You say You're gonna do or prove me delusional so i can get disconnected from this thing" ... i've been diligently seeking Him lately to PLEASE!!! make things clearer to me, then Holy Spirit in His usual style feeds me something just enough to not make me as totally sure as say His finally providing me a publisher for "The Called", or my pastor and his ministerial staff on their faces praying for Revival and the calling of a solemn assembly of the entire congregation towards the same, the actual Revival itself, my being made His spokesman to His Church first and then to the nations, or a ministry that when it takes off will take a multitude with it, no not anything as assuring as any of these things i believe i've heard Him say to me so long ago, but He directs me to get Os Guinesse's book "Prophetic Untimeliness" where He lays out an entirely different definition of the calling than your own ... In it He says that the three most outstanding cost of the office of a "true" prophet is ...- An awful sense of "maladjustment" within a oblivious status quo ...- An awful sense of "impatience" towards the vision(s) He's given you that screams, "How long O Lord"? ...- And an awful sense of "failure" ... The latter is what i'm dealing with now and have to constantly overcome the most when i slip down from my spirit into my humanity, and it's the latter that makes me dare to attempt my veiled "ultimatum" to God ... But He, thru this book even addressed that ...Quote from the book under the chapter:"The Price of Faithfulness""We cannot define our own achievements or success ... Being human, just as we want to bring forward the vision rather than continue to hope and trust, so we want to know if we have really succeeded rather than wait for God's "Well done".How do we each react when we find that our noblest dreams and most profound strivings are staring in the face failure? Never for one moment must we allow ourselves an excuse to ease up in pursuing God's call. Not for a second can we think of taking the bitter pill of apparent failure and sugarcoating it with rationalizations about the difficult times in which we live.God knew the times in which He called us to live, and He alone knows the outcome of our times as He knows the outcome of our lives and work" ...Hmmmm ... Now is this God answering my feeble ultimatum ... My humanity says, "Well maybe ... could just be coincidence", but my spirit says, "Well it don't get much plainer than that, there you go again concerning yourself with what doesn't concern you mainly because you're tired of waiting, and tired of being a misfit" ... Then that "gift of faith" kicks in and says "Keep pushing ... keep believing" ... Inch worm ... Inch worm ... But as my Dad used to say concerning the avoidance of an accident, "An "inch" is as good as a mile" ... "Precious Lord take my hand, lead me on, make me stand" ...i think arm chair quarter-backing is so easy to do, but to actually be in the game taking invisible play instructions from your Invisible Head Coach against an invisible opponent that appears to be slightly ahead at the two minute warning, well that's the gut tightening real deal ... Brother Guinesse says that we really mess up when we cease our sole focus on the audience of One (meaning God Himself) as to only requiring His assuredness as to who and what we are in and to Him ... i'm certainly guilty of this at times in being rattled by what i percieve as such rampant negativity toward my calling from others, but most guilty in the inclusion of my own "self" negativity toward the same ... Guess that's all part of taking up my cross and walking with it huh? ...Slllllllllllrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuup!!! ... Hmmmm ... what's that sound? ... It's the sound of brother Rahman's well drained totally dry of this subject of the "prophet" ... And of this i'm most glad ... God and time proves or disproves all ... :beard: In the love of Christ ...Br. R

It is important also that we be able to distinguish among ourselves which believer does what so that when comes a time for the body to call upon that believer's office then we can say,We have been led astray by the KJV! there is no such thing as the 'office' of a prophet.

Please explain Philologos. Thank you brother.

May I interupt here? Why not check out this article, "Picture of a Prophet" by L. Ravenhill?http://www.ravenhill.org/prophet.htmI suspect many discount the role of the prophet simply because it doesn't fit into our perception of 'spiritual leader' Also, the prophet's message is not what we want to hear. Wasn't it that way in biblical times - esp when Israel has strayed from God? None of the prophets were popular, highly regarded, or accepted by the religious establishment (unless, of course, they were false prophets - eager to tickle ears. The place of the prophet is on the bottom - not the top of the rung. The prophet suffers for the church, faces a lot of rejection, and is even willing to die for the church. Prophets carry the burden of the Lord - and are divinely called to transmit it to the people - as led by the Spirit. Isn't that what we need today? I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to be a prophet, unless the calling is a burning passion placed upon them by God himself. Diane

. Because anyone wrestling with the awful belief of calling of being a prophet of the Lord would know first hand it's painful anxieties, difficulties, questionings, anticipations and frustrationsBrother Rahman That is so true. No one wants to hear anything you have to say neither do they believe you. It is really difficult and there are messages that I have had to deliver against my own will… When you say that you have a prophetic word, people act as if you have claimed to be Elijah reincarnated…it is a painful isolation. The modern church does not make it easy to be a prophet nor do they sympathize with the anxious young prophet. The doubt and suspicion (external) with which you are compassed about with is phenomenal and saddening. James

We have been led astray by the KJV! there is no such thing as the 'office' of a prophet.are you saying that there are no more prophets or that being a prophet is not called an office but rather a responsibility in the kingdom of God? I'm unsure what exactly you are getting at.

Welcome sis. In acts11:28 and acts 21:10-11 we see at least 2 functions of a prophet in the NT church. Neither of which we would associate with that of individuals we would call prophets in our "today" use of the term. While I believe in the prophetic giftings and even individuals that are prophets within the church of Jesus Christ, I however see a great deal of misuse in this area. On the one hand we have thoughs who are modeled after thier taught preception of what a prophet is and that usually based on the OT models and on the other hand we have thoughs in the NT who seemed to have unusual giftings and we lump them in as a prophet or prophetess. In 1 Cor 14 we have the government of the modern prophet with in the church note verse 37. Basically we have people trying to be OT prophets in a NT environment and that's out of order. There is a sense that in the same way we are all priest unto our God we like wise are all prophets in this world. But within the church of Jesus Christ?....Thats a different matter all together, the approach is completely different. Interested in hear what ya think. God Bless---Bro. Daryl

Ms DianeThank you so much for that. God has told me this serveral times. Mockery and laughter would come first but then when things get to happenning, prophets of judgement (and probably all prophets)shall become hated among men. There was no prophet who ever had a nice prosperity message to give to the people. Most of them died brutally, if the trend holds (and it probably will) then a lot of prophets will die by the hand of the antichrist.

The book of James ch1:5 if any of you lack wisdom let hinm ask of God who gives to all generously..... put that with the fruit of wisdom---James3:17-18 The ulitmate purpose of the prophetic is to bring people to the Lord, in other words cause man to be at peace with thier God ---Jesus Christ. Learn to self judge that word against the fruits of wisdom, however in somethings its still a leap of faith. You don't always have to say "I have a Word from the Lord for you",,,,,"or Thus Saith The Lord".....learn the lesson of the farmer and be a wise sower, a master story teller like Jesus. Learn to give people free will and freedom of choice in thier acceptance of that word without incurring your condemnation upon rejection of that word or you. If you learn to master the bringing forth of God's Word in a wise manner you'll have fruitful results and you'll never have to compromise or be bitter from rejection knowing that you walked on solid scriptural footing and you'll be fully accepted of God and your own conscience your spirit bearing witness with God' Spirit. Blessing to you all. Bro. Daryl

:-D The heading at the top of the thread might have been a bit hasty. The questions came from a sincere heart though. I have no formal education beyond HS. No bible education. I just sit in the Lord's presence in hear his voice and the feel of His hand on my head as He talks to me out of His word.1Cor 14:37 is pretty self evident and the self governing of a prophet in the church is throughout the chapter. As to what a prophet goes through on the inside, I know that full well. I supose that people differ in style and delivery and in methods and sometimes creeds, but all in all they can still have loving fellowship in Christ Jesus. The emptiness you feel?Read Proverbs 1:23 and chew on it for awhile, there's a time of refreshing coming for you. For me? from the time I engage in a conversation I generally cover it in prayer as I also do for thoughs in the thread. Even kept you in prayer. I've learned to take all people by faith.I mean in the sense that one will say to me this or that, even if I don't believe what they say , I recieve them by faith(heb 11:1). It is however so difficult to know ones heart through the print, that's a lesson I'm learning on these forums, that I'm learning to take the time to be more explainative and give more definitions on things as I understand them. James say in many ways we offend many, to that all I can say is Lord have the mercy on me that I have had on others. Anyway enough said. Blessings. Bro. Daryl

I have some questions to throw into the mix. Two different comments Jimm and Philo made caused me to notice a few unspoken assumptions I have aquired over the years regarding Ephesians 4:11.Let me preface by observing that sometimes we discuss the fruit of the spirit as a series of different individual fruits (plural). I believe this defective idea is the result of our having believed that Christ-likeness does not flow from the fullness of His indwelling spirit but from "practicing" or imitating various traits through good intentions. We talk in terms of seeking the virtures of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, ect. instead of looking for the abiding with Jesus that grows ever closer and deeper.Don't we sometimes make the same mistake with the gifts? Are we too preoccupied with labels? For instance, can't a believer with sufficient maturity, abiding in the vine, and under the shaping of the Potters hand, function in more then one gift throughout their lives? If so...why do we need to talk in terms of offices? Why not simply say that we seek to have Christ, His fullness thereof, realized in us? Having reached that single goal, won't all the rest become self-evident?"It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Is Epshesian 4:11-12 talking about offices like boxes that we are organized into? Or should we see the various equipping ministries as different rooms connected by doors that are opened by the Holy Spirit for saints to walk in and out in obedience? (I'm really asking...I'm not being rhetorical.)Consider the following completey hypothetical scenario. A young Christian man, filled with the Spirit, brims with the fire of an evangelist to see people come to know Christ. As he grows in ministry his hunger to know more about the gospel deepens and soon he becomes an avid bible student. After awhile His knowledge and understanding of scripture reaches a level of maturity that He is able to equip other believers with scriptural wisdom---he is recognized as a teacher. Then, over the course of preparing for a sunday school class he teaches he spends much time in prayer and devotion to apprehend the Lord's wisdom on a subject. Eventually He is given a clarity and immediacy to things he never realized before. He feels the need to declare these truths with urgency. Others around him recognize him as a prophet, while others may even be offended by him. So the spirit gave one to be an evangelist, and then we see that the Spirit also gave him to be a teacher, and then gave him to be a prophet.(Note that my example was not meant to imply rank or hierarchy to the gifts...I could've arranged any sequence for my hypothetical scenario.)Can we say, given that we have all of Christ within, that more and more of Christ can come out depending on grace, maturity or season? Not that the individual should vainly hope to be a self-sufficient microcosm of the complete church...but that we may at times alternate between more than one role in order to complete one another. Can 2 or 3 gathered together on an island have the "5-fold" ministry? Can 2 or 3 become a complete church with the whole measure of Christ given to their fellowship?Along these lines of questioning, let me admit that somewhere along the line I picked up the notion that spiritual giftings are simply natural talents and personality amplified by the Spirit. I've never heard it plainly said, but the unspoken contract seems to state that a cognitive person will inevitably be a teacher while the "type A personality" can qualify for the office of a prophet. This reasoning seems unfounded when considering reluctant prophets such as Moses, Jeremiah or Hosea. Furthermore we know Paul as a great apostle, but was there also a more effective teacher or evangelist than him? Perhaps because we tend to rely too much on our natural strengths, I sense a silent agreement in the modern church that personality and natural gifting is the clue to calling and spirtual gifting. (Even musicans are sometimes labled "psalmists"!) Is this simple logic the source of our confidence in accepting someones' "office"?... the composition of the natural man affirms his role to play in the spiritual order of things? Do we unwittingly place people in boxes labeled "such and such office" largely according to their outer man?I could share my opinion on all this but why not cut to the chase and admit my ignorance? We get so much more accomplished that way!:-)

Please explain Philologos. Thank you brotherHe may be beyond explanation! :-? but seriously, the word "office" appears some 46 times in the KJV. In every case it is unjustified. The translators of the KJV were anxious to preserve the status quo of Jacobean England. The Geneva translation was much less respectful to authority which was one of the reasons that James wanted a new translation. The most notorious example of obsession with office and rank is probably “For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (1Tim. 3:13, KJV) where the word is simply 'served'. In Jacobean England every person was to have their station in the grand order of things and nothing was to be changed. Even midwives had 'office'!! (Ex 1:16) It is from the word ''office" that we get the adjective "official" and King James England was insistent that nothing was allowable that was not "official". He was a new king in a new country and determined to control religion as every other aspect of his new realm. It was a control device.This is why I often say that although the KJV is my version of choice, it is a hostile witness when we are trying to understand biblical teaching on church order and authority.

Thank you guys for the loving admonishing. You don't always have to say "I have a Word from the Lord for you",,,,,"or Thus Saith The Lord".....learn the lesson of the farmer and be a wise sower, a master story teller like Jesus. Learn to give people free will and freedom of choice in thier acceptance of that word without incurring your condemnation upon rejection of that word or you. If you learn to master the bringing forth of God's Word in a wise manner you'll have fruitful results and you'll never have to compromise or be bitter from rejection knowing that you walked on solid scriptural footing and you'll be fully accepted of God and your own conscience your spirit bearing witness with God' Spirit.I sure wish it was that simple brother! I can only prophesy when I am in the Spirit, and once I am in the Spirit, there is no way for me to control the message, other than to just stop speaking, and sometimes when the unction is great even that’s not possible. The Lord has expressed great sentiment and great anger and at these times I cannot control the message. Much of the time I only have a general idea what he is going to speak about and even when I know exactly what He wants to say, it is different when “I” say it…do you follow me? My natural man cannot express the range He has in the same way and so sometimes there’s nothing for it but a “the Lord will speak”…. I think people who genuinely have the gift of tongues can relate; on one hand it is you control the speaking but on the other hand you are being given the utterance, but sometimes it just forces itself out with great unction. I could butter up the message with a nice story from my head but I am convinced that is not why He gave me the gift. Admittedly I have not prophesied to very many people simply because I have not been told to do so, however those who are in close fellowship with me (Ironman- Farai included) have experienced and shared the experience with me. Farai also prophesies and on some occasions to give us an added assurance, the Lord will speak the same message through us at the same time.I cannot prophesy about anything that I want to prophesy randomly. Even if I feel that a person needs a message of repentance with great anger the Lord is sometimes exceedingly soft and has broken people to the core with gentle words. Other times I go with a general awareness of the Lords anger and then, even I am taken by surprise when it is manifest. It is rare that I experience this and it usually comes after the same person/people has received repeated words of exhortation. I have even had to prophesy against myself more than a few times and have been broken by my own prophesies. It is a strange sensation but is nothing like being possessed in that, you are still completely coherent and your consciousness is always intact. It is something I cannot describe adequately except to say it is like watching Someone speak through you.I also receive prophetic visions and dreams and often I do not understand them and I have to wait for Him to explain it at His convenience. It is definitely a Spiritual gift because I can tell you for a fact that before the 27th of August 2004 I could not prophesy, and then after that (that is a story for a whole different thread) I could, although I lost the anointing for a few months because of fear and a lack of faith and understanding. One of the first prophetic utterances I received was simply one word- “light” after that when my faith had grown I received another utterance explicitly and plainly appointing me into service. I reluctantly accepted after I tried to get out of it as I gave my reasons for not being able to fulfill the task ( I was too young and too scared). The Lord spoke softly and I could not resist Him and gave in.After that I had to inform my parents that I was dropping out of Chemical Engineering college to be a minister (I did not tell them about the gift of prophesy) back home in Africa! I almost threw up just waiting for them to answer the phone. My Mom (the more spiritual of the two- who had received a vision concerning something like this about me from the Lord) sounded disappointed, but like me, she doesn’t like confrontation and she just told me to speak to my Dad (who’s military history is still in him) and he almost persuaded me that I was being too hasty. None of my old friends reacted badly at first, but I do not speak to any of them anymore, not even the “spiritual” ones.I have changed a lot in the Lord, but, I am still just “James”…still looking for fellowship and a deeper relationship with God, just like all you other saints. I am not selling a prosperity message (that’s not likely to make it in Africa anyway) or anything like that, but I am anxious to share the things the Lord has shown me with other believers. And on that note I will stop before this gets a little too personal…James

How long you been saved?

Thanks brother Daryl for the scripture ... "Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you" ... Prov.1:23Reproof from our Lord is such a good thing ..."As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent " ... Rev. 3:19This statement from Os Guinnesse's book was a real strong "reproof" to repentance for me ... "Never for one moment must we allow ourselves an excuse to ease up in pursuing God's call" ... I'll be meditating on this and Proverbs 1:23 for a while ...And you have no idea how much your following statement means to me ...Quote;"For me? from the time I engage in a conversation I generally cover it in prayer as I also do for thoughs in the thread. Even kept you in prayer. To know that you pray for me brother Daryl warms my spirit, thank you and amen, as i do also pray for you, SI and all it's members ... "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints" ... Eph.6:18A blessed day to ALL my brothers and sisters in Christ ... "We're ALL in this together"! ...“whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor.12:26) ... Amen

How long you been saved?That depends what you mean by “saved”. I was baptized in water when I was 7 years old, I was baptized in the Spirit 7 months ago. I have been actively and earnestly seeking for about two years.There is nothing special about me all (I’m not being modest). I can’t claim to have been at the end of a 40 day fast when the word of the Lord came expressly to me, but while I was yet in my sins the Lord sought me and delivered me in mercy. It is all Him, I can take no credit at all.James

bro Ronso we should use service instead of office?

Oh ok.. Thank you Ron. I see what you are saying. It seems many people see it as an office just as a government offical that is elected. As we all know this is not the way it should be. The Holy Ghost should be the only one voting in that election...

Some really good stuff here, Lahry, Ron, MC...Been riding the coat tails as this progress's and not much to add.(Yeah, right). Somewhere along the line was the idea of cramming the Old Testament prophet into a New Testament molding. But at bottom, the fortune-tellers, the 'offices' and 'ranks' and seeking after such things... or even the compulsion that one may be such... Bluntly, something seems amiss to hear these things stated as "I am a ...", probably redundant but to hear it put by the likes of Tozer and to hear it put as "How come nobody is listening to me?" Seems to have an air of more importance with the 'bearer' than the 'message' often times. In more frank words, IF you are one, seems somebody else would say so, why the penchant to 'proclaim it'? Or to put it even differently than that, my own sense would be of "Wait till I am a good and dead, before you start putting that label on me". Do we really want to be 'know' 'as' something this seriously damaging? What the requirements are, the demands and shear fright that one would think comes bearing out to take seriously something of just this example;Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Jer 23:25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. Jer 23:26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Jer 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Jer 23:30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Jer 23:31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Jer 23:32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD. Jer 23:33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD. Jer 23:34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. Jer 23:35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. Jer 23:37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? Jer 23:38 But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten. None of this meant to be an indictment here, nor to no one in particular. The difference in 'what seems to be so' as it passes through our feeble thoughts and that which is to be turned into 'statements of fact', just wonder sometimes the ease and the lack of caution, the odd clamoring that seems to be that of seeking 'high' things for ones self, wasn't the admonishen, 'seek them not?'. I know what Paul said, but I don't believe this is what he had in mind with...1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. Some commentary towards this...But rather that ye may prophesy - But especially, or particularly desire to be qualified for the office of prophesying. The apostle does not mean to say that prophecy is to be preferred to love or charity; but that, of the spiritual gifts which it was proper for them to desire and seek, prophecy was the most valuable. That is, they were not most earnestly and especially to desire to be able to speak foreign languages or to work miracles; but they were to desire to be qualified to speak in a manner that would be edifying to the church. They would naturally, perhaps, most highly prize the power of working miracles and of speaking foreign languages. The object of this chapter is to show them that the ability to speak in a plain, clear, instructive manner, so as to edify the church and convince sinners, was a more valuable endowment than the power of working miracles, or the power of speaking foreign languages.On the meaning of the word “prophesy,” see the note at Rom_11:6. To what is said there on the nature of this office, it seems necessary only to add an idea suggested by Prof. Robinson (Greek and English Lexicon, under the article, Προφήτης Prophētēs), that the prophets were distinguished from the teachers (διδάσκαλοι didaskaloi), “in that, while the latter spoke in a calm, connected, didactic discourse adapted to instruct and enlighten the hearers, the prophet spoke more from the impulse of sudden inspiration, from the light of a sudden revelation at the moment (1Co_14:30, ἀποκάλυφθη apokalupthē), and his discourse was probably more adapted, by means of powerful exhortation, to awaken the feelings and conscience of the hearers.” The idea of speaking from “revelation,” he adds, seems to be fundamental to the correct idea of the nature of the prophecy here referred to. Yet the communications of the prophets were always in the vernacular tongue, and were always in intelligible language, and in this respect different from the endowments of those who spoke foreign languages.The same truth might be spoken by both; the influence of the Spirit was equally necessary in both; both were inspired; and both answered important ends in the establishment and edification of the church. The gift of tongues, however, as it was the most striking and remarkable, and probably the most rare, was most highly prized and coveted. The object of Paul here is, to show that it was really an endowment of less value, and should be less desired by Christians than the gift of prophetic instruction, or the ability to edify the church in language intelligible and understood by all, under the immediate influences of the Holy Spirit.Barnes' NotesObviously influenced by that same 'office' word, but taking all that is said there, in one sense we all are 'prophesying' when it carries "the ability to edify the church in language intelligible and understood by all, under the immediate influences of the Holy Spirit."But that doesn't make us necessarily 'prophets' by title. Often it's just rambling opinion, a title that's glaringly obvious on this 'office' door :-D Intrigued by Lahrys "I started a thread on "apostolic credentials". Any takers?"Again not the 'title', but the 'make up'...Hope there is some takers there, already thoughts toward spin offs from that, "discipleship credentials" first req. "Take up your cross"...But I digress, one thing at a time.Also liked this, Anointing comes from only once source. It cannot be immitated. It scares the daylights out of the well educated and those in "control". Selah.A threat to the pride, no?

so we should use service instead of office?The Bible in both testaments is much more concerned with function than title. I like the word 'service' but sometimes even that becomes a technical word like 'ministry'. If we relentlessly use verbs rather than nouns we get closer to most of the references. The midwives... midwifed, if there is such a word! The priest did not fulfil their office they simply 'priested'.

I sure wish it was that simple brother! I can only prophesy when I am in the Spirit, and once I am in the Spirit, there is no way for me to control the message, other than to just stop speaking, and sometimes when the unction is great even that’s not possible.JimmHow would this relate to “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” (1Cor. 14:29-32, KJV)

"How come nobody is listening to me?" Seems to have an air of more importance with the 'bearer' than the 'message' often times.It is not so much a concern for myself although I admit rejection does hurt but the fact that believers lack faith is very disconcerting. People say, “where are the prophets” but they really don’t want to know that. I do expect a measure of rejection from the world but from the church it hurts. Not because I feel important but because I know that I am nothing and therefore I suppose that, those who witness this working through me will be encouraged. I know that the Lord can work wonders through anyone, but I am not propagating seeking wonders but rather seeking Him in His fullness. My message is not, “run after the gift of prophesy” but for me, I did not so much as know that the Lord still did that…indeed my Bible commentary spoke directly against these gifts of the Spirit, dismissing them as “a thing which was necessary at the time, so as to set the foundation of the church, but once the foundation was set, they were no longer necessary”. This is one of the reasons I speak so freely about it, (so that those who hear my testimony may know the truth which is being stifled by these lies) by but not, mind you, in public, but here on the forum, where our purpose is to trade information. If we met in person, I probably would never mention it unless the Lord moved me to it. There is so much territory the church is not claiming because we are afraid to acknowledge the workings of the Spirit. The paranoia, which says that, “all gifts are false gifts” is damaging to the church, my ego will get over it (it should be crucified in Christ, but I am still growing).James

JimmHow would this relate to Quote:“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.” (1Cor. 14:29-32, KJV)Do you speak in tongues Brother Ron?James

eople say, “where are the prophets” but they really don’t want to know that. I do expect a measure of rejection from the world but from the church it hurts. Not because I feel important but because I know that I am nothing and therefore I suppose that, those who witness this working through me will be encouraged.I have wrestled with this very much over the last year. I used to think that the 'prophets' should arise and come in guns blazing and set everyone strait. What I have found is a lot of zeal to speak words of correction come off as 'thrashing' and are not well received. Folk can tell when a message is ministered in love and out of real concern. A crowd can take about anything if they are real believers and the message is of the right spirit. What manor of spirit are the words coming out? I think we misunderstand the prophets and tend to clump together a lifetime of workings and in turn loose what the prophet was all about. There are 'snapshots' of their lives recorded for us; but are we to suppose that Elijah ran and overtook the horseman everyday? There is a lot of living going on between the sansational events. Who was it that said when somene has aspirations to be a Prophet we can assume they are NOT one? I also have to agree with Bro. Ron's assertion that the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. If something gets ahold of us that we cannot control it seems to me it would be great cause for alarm (to say the least). This is how order is maintained in a service. If everyone declared they could not control themselves then they could blame God for everyting they say while under this 'power' or 'force'. Yet, we can be certain that we are ultimately going to give an account for every word that we speak- so it behooves us to realize this when we consider 'yielding' our members over without them being 'subject' unto us. God Bless,-Robert

I sure wish it was that simple brother! I can only prophesy when I am in the Spirit, and once I am in the Spirit, there is no way for me to control the message, other than to just stop speaking, and sometimes when the unction is great even that’s not possible.I'm wondering, is this "Spirit", that has been refered to, the same Spirit who's fruit is "self-control"? If not, why is the "S" capitalised? I've noticed that "prophets" of a questionable nature (hey I'm trying to be polite here), speak of the "Spirit" and "unction" as if it's a "spiritual force" and not a Person. "You can't blaspheme a force, you can only blaspheme a Person" - Jacob Prasch (Making reference to Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of the Holy Spirit)Even false prophets like Mike Bickle and Kevin Van Der Westhuisen (sp?) call for order, with the later saying, "If you'll forget the word that God have between leaving the chair and picking up a microphone, then maybe God didn't give it to you."

bro MikeI said I am a prophet because that is what God told me I am. I didn't ask for it, in fact I didn't even want that responsibility, I thought prophets were of no use any more. Now why God chose me for this I have no clue, all I can say is that this is what He willed for my life and so here I am. He did warn me that this responsibility/office will come with mockery, rejection and then becoming hated among men. If you knew the half of drama that comes with this responsibility. I guess working for God in any othe capacity isn't so hard because at least there is a level of acceptance that comes with being an exhorter, teacher etc. For a prophet however, the road is lonely coz God sends one forth and noone wants to hear what God has to say through Him, that sucks. In all honesty I don't care if anyone hears and responds to what God puts on my spirit because my job is simply to say what I am told to say and do what I am told to do. it's funny you should say though that it should be evident that I am prophet. How can that be if noone wants to hear from the prophets of GOd? My saying this is not a proclamation from the mountaintops but rather a statment of my coming to terms with what God has called me to do. People are looking for prophets, well here we are, yet how is it that when the Lord sends us forth with a word for the church noone wants to listen? That grieves my spirit more than anyone could ever know. It's not that I'M not being listened to that bothers me but rather that what God is speaking through me is not being heeded. That is what brings my spirit grief.

IRONMAN wrote: People are looking for prophets, well here we are, yet how is it that when the Lord sends us forth with a word for the church noone wants to listen? That grieves my spirit more than anyone could ever know. It's not that I'M not being listened to that bothers me but rather that what God is speaking through me is not being heeded. That is what brings my spirit grief."Prophets suffer for the people, with the people and by the people. If God's called you to be a prophet, then you better pledge your head to heaven." - Leonard Ravenhill (paraphrase).Check out the message God gave Isaiah, when he finally understood the awesomeness of God, in Isaiah 6. Then You'll understand why know one listens to a true prophet. In fact, when a "prophet" is widely accepted by christendom, I question the validity of his claim. Reality is, few will acknowledge the prophet, but many will despise him.

Okay time out guys…I have not said, that I can never control the prophesies but I have said at times (rarely) there is so much unction I can resist it. Most times I can just ignore the word He has placed on my heart but other times when I am deep in the Spirit the word flows almost involuntarily, not that I’ve really tried my hardest to stop the word (I have never had the desire to do so) but I have to say when the Lord will speak He will speak. Who can resist the Lord? It is difficult to explain except to those who speak in tongues; when you speak in tongues you can almost always control it (stop and start at will) but there are times when the groanings of the Spirit and the tongues have a much firmer lead than usual. Can anyone relate here?James

What manor of spirit are the words coming out? I think we misunderstand the prophets and tend to clump together a lifetime of workings and in turn loose what the prophet was all about. There are 'snapshots' of their lives recorded for us; but are we to suppose that Elijah ran and overtook the horseman everyday? There is a lot of living going on between the sansational events.Thank you Brother Robert. I also add that the only prophets who became acclaimed were the ones who had a special task set for them to accomplish in the Lord. Many of them suffered the fate of those who were eventually killed by Jezebel at the time of Elijah, laboring for the Lord in obscurity…wondering around in sheepskins and goatskins…We’re just average Joes just sent forth in the hope that the average Joe can relate, but ironically the “average Joe” is not looking for the “average Joe”.

Hi Ironman,Now why God chose me for this I have no clue, all I can say is that this is what He willed for my life and so here I am. He did warn me that this responsibility/office will come with mockery, rejection and then becoming hated among men. If you knew the half of drama that comes with this responsibility.I think it is important to place a perspective here. Moses once said; "would to God that all His people were prophets..." If a person is FULL of the Holy Ghost they will live a life that is sure to encounter persecution. Why? Because all that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. This is not an exclusive club; it is the natural outworking of the Holy Spirit in us. I guess working for God in any othe capacity isn't so hard because at least there is a level of acceptance that comes with being an exhorter, teacher etc. For a prophet however, the road is lonely coz God sends one forth and noone wants to hear what God has to say through Him, that sucks. In all honesty I don't care if anyone hears and responds to what God puts on my spirit because my job is simply to say what I am told to say and do what I am told to do. I would say that introducing ones self as a 'prophet' may cause some rejection right off. Also Jeremiah wept bitterly when the people rejected his messages. Prophets did not just carry a surrogate message, but God birthed in them a word to which became part of them. They were often on emotional rollercoasters. Even Jonah was not indifferent to the reception of the message. He seemed to wish they would reject it and be judged. These were men who gave their lives for the word they spoke. It is always in the interest of the prophet that the people hearken to the message. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked- nor should we. ********************************* In all honesty I don't care if anyone hears and responds to what God puts on my spirit because my job is simply to say what I am told to say and do what I am told to do. compare to:People are looking for prophets, well here we are, yet how is it that when the Lord sends us forth with a word for the church noone wants to listen? That grieves my spirit more than anyone could ever know. It's not that I'M not being listened to that bothers me but rather that what God is speaking through me is not being heeded. That is what brings my spirit grief.

bro Robertlet me clarify. it does grieve me in the spirit but me saying I don't care is not saying I don't grieve but rather I don't have any say in whether people will heed the message so I'm not going to worry about that. I know that there seems to be a contradiction there so I wanted to clear that up.concerning the rejection due to being filled with the Holy Spirit, I agree I was just stating that as a prophet there is a lonliness that perhaps amplifies or makes the rejection of being filled with the holy spirit a bit different or harder maybe. when you said emotional rollercoaster I can relate to that.

it's funny you should say though that it should be evident that I am prophet. How can that be if noone wants to hear from the prophets of GOd?IRONMAN, I guess I wasn't saying anything in insistance...I was wondering aloud. I have so many questions. Yes, there does seem to be a sad paradox with the Spirit of Truth in the church. Do we want to hear or do we want to have our ears tickled?However, my questions remain. Philologos, I believe, helped a great deal by using the word "service" instead of "office", just as function is more important then form. Do we prophecy because we are prophets, or are we prophets because we have prophesied? That is what I mean by "self-evident". Who cares what I am called if I do indeed have the words of life?This leads me back to the title of this thread. What is the credentials of a prophet...that I may recognize one? A police officer wears a badge and therefore represents the city government. Imagine if there were vigilantes, fueled by righteous indignation, roaming in and out of jurisdictions arresting and condemning without a warrant from the government? The entire judicial system, city, state, and federal, would be nothing more then the strong ruling the weak.I do not mean to hurt anyone, but a sure conviction that one is a prophet representing God means nothing to me. I must ask to see a badge. If you want in my house where my family lives, I must also see your warrant.In the meantime, I will greatly esteem the desposit and the outworking of the Holy Spirit that is evident in your life. By your example I can be shown what true repentance and a closer walk with Jesus looks like.Thanks guys,MC

IRONMAN, I guess I wasn't saying anything in insistance...I was wondering aloud. I have so many questions. Yes, there does seem to be a sad paradox with the Spirit of Truth in the church. Do we want to hear or do we want to have our ears tickled?I see, I was not adressing you directly with the statement you responded to but rather it's a general assessment of the church. It has always been so, people called for prophets and when they came they rejected them. You are right when you ask do we want our ears tickled or to hear truth. mOst people would rather have their ears tickled and this is nothing new.I guess we prophecy because we are prophets and we are prophets because we prophecy. I don't think you can really separate the 2, it seems to me that would be rather involving, I could be wrong of course.As far as prophetic credentials perhaps we would do well in looking at the prophets of old. What were they all about? what sort of people were they? Mostly just average joes that God used in the hope that average joe might be able to appeal to the other average joes. I mean there wasnt anything special really about these guys. I can't say to you I am a prophet because I have this and that attribute all I can say is that God called me. I am unworthy of Him, even so unworthy as to be unworthy of Him TELLING me that I am unworthy. I have no badge except that God simply told me so. I can do no more than I am told but after having done so, whoever the word is directed toward must then go before God with it and work it out with HIm. I guess it would be easier if lightnings and thunderings came with the words of each prophet, but then again who is to say that that is enough though? I mean that may be enough to convince you MC but maybe not bro Ron or Robert, bro Mike or Rahman etc, see what I mean?

Hi Ironman,I mean that may be enough to convince you MC but maybe not bro Ron or Robert, bro Mike or Rahman etc, see what I mean?None should follow signs and wonders in these last days as evidence of the legitimacy of a prophet because of what are known as "lying signs and wonders." The enemy will exercise great power in these last days and would draw away if possible even the very elect. We have a record already as to the basic parameters of the 'content' of any prophetic message as it pertains to doctrinal things- and that is the Word of God. Other messages of repentance or exhortation can be discerned by those in whom the Spirit of God dwells providing the messengers are where they need to be with God. This is critically important. I believe God speaks to folk today. I also believe God is putting a word of repentance and restoration in the mouths of His messengers. Yet, as those who believe in the moving of the Holy Spirit in our times we have to caution ourselves against getting overly esoterical in our relationship with God. I call this 'excess' "flakesville" for short. I talk a bit about it in the audio message "survival of the revival." Revivals blow apart when people keep seeking deeper spiritual experiences in God when He is trying to lead them in other directions. Another caution is not to get the idea that our office is somehow exclusive. I may 'serve' in a variety of offices over the course of time, but that does not give me some sort of special rank or something. No one paid homage to the prophets that I recall- especially in their lifetime. C.S. Lewis once warned that there are two extremes that people fall into when it comes to the supernatural; 1) Not to believe in it at all2) To have an 'unhealthy interest' in it.I think this can apply here. We need to focus on being balanced Christians as the Holy Spirits leads. If a Prophet arises today he or she will be a Christian right? They will be Christlike and yield the fruit of the Spirit? They will be all of what God calls us to be because they are 'Prophets.' Prophet is a heavy or should I say a 'very tall order.' Daniel had an 'excellent spirit' and was of great integrity. His devotion to God and his devotional life was unique. The problem with many who wish to be a prophet today is that it forces them to devote so much time to seeking God prophetically that they neglect the most basic Christian duties towards family and work, etc. Pretty soon they find themselves in some sort of question while believing they are growing more Spiritual. Can a person in our day really be a prophet and a genuine New Testament Christian at the same time? Would he/she spend as much time examing self as they would others? I think you get my point. God Bless,-Robert

Compton wrote:This leads me back to the title of this thread. What is the credentials of a prophet...that I may recognize one? I think that Elijah and John cannot be the only models that are seen as truely prophetic. Jeremiah wept his eyes sour, Isaiah lived like a nobel. So as far as models go, there is something inside all of us that wants to battle the priests of baal, and call down fire from heaven, but is that what a NT prophet is?Getting back to Ephesians 4, I have heard it said that these are not just gifts as in the gifts of 1 Cor 12, but are men(women?). God himself has raised up people themselves that are the gifts to the church.

Br Mike wrote:Let me preface by observing that sometimes we discuss the fruit of the spirit as a series of different individual fruits (plural). I believe this defective idea is the result of our having believed that Christ-likeness does not flow from the fullness of His indwelling spirit but from "practicing" or imitating various traits through good intentions. We talk in terms of seeking the virtures of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, ect. instead of looking for the abiding with Jesus that grows ever closer and deeper.Many times in Scripture it is difficult to tell whether David is speaking of himself or prophesying of His Lord. Here is one example of David's heart being one with His Lord.Psa. 22:0 To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David. Psa. 22:1 \tMy God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?\tWhy are You so far from helping Me,\tAnd from the words of My groaning? 2 \tO My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;\tAnd in the night season, and am not silent. 3 \tBut You are holy,\tEnthroned in the praises of Israel. 4 \tOur fathers trusted in You;\tThey trusted, and You delivered them. 5 \tThey cried to You, and were delivered;\tThey trusted in You, and were not ashamed. 6 \tBut I am a worm, and no man;\tA reproach of men, and despised by the people. 7 \tAll those who see Me ridicule Me;\tThey shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,8 \t“He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;\tLet Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!” 9 \tBut You are He who took Me out of the womb;\tYou made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts. 10 \tI was cast upon You from birth.\tFrom My mother’s womb\tYou have been My God. 11 \tBe not far from Me,\tFor trouble is near;\tFor there is none to help. 12 \tMany bulls have surrounded Me;\tStrong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. 13 \tThey gape at Me with their mouths,\tLike a raging and roaring lion. 14 \tI am poured out like water,\tAnd all My bones are out of joint;\tMy heart is like wax;\tIt has melted within Me. 15 \tMy strength is dried up like a potsherd,\tAnd My tongue clings to My jaws;\tYou have brought Me to the dust of death. 16 \tFor dogs have surrounded Me;\tThe congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.\tThey pierced My hands and My feet; 17 \tI can count all My bones.\tThey look and stare at Me. 18 \tThey divide My garments among them,\tAnd for My clothing they cast lots. 19 \tBut You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;\tO My Strength, hasten to help Me! 20 \tDeliver Me from the sword,\tMy precious life from the power of the dog. 21 \tSave Me from the lion’s mouth\tAnd from the horns of the wild oxen!\tYou have answered Me. 22 \tI will declare Your name to My brethren;\tIn the midst of the assembly I will praise You. 23 \tYou who fear the LORD, praise Him!\tAll you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,\tAnd fear Him, all you offspring of Israel! 24 \tFor He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;\tNor has He hidden His face from Him;\tBut when He cried to Him, He heard. 25 \tMy praise shall be of You in the great assembly;\tI will pay My vows before those who fear Him. 26 \tThe poor shall eat and be satisfied;\tThose who seek Him will praise the LORD.\tLet your heart live forever! 27 \tAll the ends of the world\tShall remember and turn to the LORD,\tAnd all the families of the nations\tShall worship before You. 28 \tFor the kingdom is the LORD’S,\tAnd He rules over the nations. 29 \tAll the prosperous of the earth\tShall eat and worship;\tAll those who go down to the dust\tShall bow before Him,\tEven he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 \tA posterity shall serve Him.\tIt will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation, 31 \tThey will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,\tThat He has done this.As the other Br Mike stated:Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” All things come from from Him whom the Father has sent. "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." The closer one gets to the Lord the more the testimony of Him abides in the one who draws close. David had this testimony.In ChristJeff

Well this is still a very edifyng discussion if I may say so.The 'subject to the prophets' is pretty telling, especially for the ones trying to just bring some self leveling here, are we indicting ourselves? ;-) But to the Iron brothers, the Lord bless you both. You see at bottom the others here are not really fitting neatly into that catagorie of outright rejection, in effect you are preaching to the choir. Any venture backward's here to old posting's would bring about any number of heated Prophet-like 'pronouncements'. My own personal area of hostility, righteous indignation, what have you and including off the rails to borrow from Bro. Roberts playbook, would be toward the whole of the WOF movement and it's sister cousins. But was it born of bitterness or sheer grief? Well in all honesty early on there was certainly that sense of being 'duped' and by and large it was that same utter frustration that perhaps you may well be trying to articulate here;'That they don't want to hear it!' That they are buying a lie, being misled...And in the same way that could be said of many of those around us in this modern day world, they are just frankly not interested in the Gospel, at least not in what's true of the Gospel, any other version that doesn't ask for much seems to be making pretty good head way.We seem to be in somewhat of a muddy middle here and the original question still holds."Credentials". Couldn't but help remember that our treasuers are in heaven, our crowns, our New Name, all that is of the greatest importance is eternal, we have but a few years in all this triffling, let 'em talk about us after we are dead if the Lord still tarries. The other advantage we have here is a backwards look on things in scripture, after the fact. Even in history. Did you know that the Wesley's were rather despised while they lived? It wasn't till some time erroded away that became the 'great's' they are now considered. The same thing is not likely to come from here, not unless someone begins making times for Jesus' return or stating some 'new revelation' or something of that sort.Just as well there is a speaking to the general here as well. From the claims of the Lord gathering up a mighty army that has been said for so long and so often that you would think they must have ran out of C-rations by now to every other fanciful thing under the sun, every year, practically every month it's another 'new thing' the Lord is doing and none of it comes to pass. That's not disbelief, that's exactely what was said in Jereimiah..."I never sent them."I liked MC's analogy there and a policeman isn't really necessary among the peaceful but where the trouble is. So would imagine you guy's will continue to be challenged on these things from those here, whether they are from the Lord or not, 'test all things', and that includes all our own opinions and thoughts, it's because we care too much to let the cautions and dangers be ignored. Besides it could just be bad pizza 8-)

Well, if I have learnt anything at all, is that Christians find it extremely offensive when one refers to Himself a prophet. I find this very strange because when one refers to themselves as an evangelist or a pastor or teacher or preacher there is no such objection, but guess I can understand it. In future I pray I may be given the grace to stay out of such discussions as it appears most people have already made up their minds about this sensitive issue. I do not mean to sound offensive but I have been quietened and a little baffled, but not offended. Please pray for me dear brothers and sisters…peradventure there is something you have perceived in me that you dare not point out lest a riot breaks out :-)James

there is something inside all of us that wants to battle the priests of baal, and call down fire from heaven, but is that what a NT prophet is?I think this is an important question when we discuss prophecy. Having recieved the mystery of the gospel(Eph. 6:19), do we still measure ourselves against the old testament role of a prophet?For, assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men craved to see the things you see and did not see them, and to hear the things you hear and did not hear them.(Matt. 13:17)Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things (1 Pet. 1:10-12, NIV). Unlike the great prophets who foretold, we have been shown the mystery so that it is no longer shrouded. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the ages to our glory; which none of the rulers of this age knew; for if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But just as it is written: "Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard..." (1 Cor. 2:7-9) What is this mystery? It is the promise Jesus Christ."My purpose is that they may he encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:2-3, NIV).I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness - the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col. 1:25-26, NIV). Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings... (Rom. 16:25-26, NIV).In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus (Eph. 3:3-6, NIV)So my honest conclusion is that a New Testament prophet is not satisfied with merely making straight the way for repentance, in unfulfilled longing and anticipation. Rather a New Testament prophet lifts up the revealed mystery, Jesus Christ, that the church may see Him more clearly. (In some ways, it might be fairly said that a NT prophet actually looks backward, in that no work of grace or holiness is true unless it be at the cross.)While a NT prophet may foretell the future, or cry out for repentance, are these the edifying works that Paul was referring to when he said "but he who prophesies edifies the church... I would rather have you prophesy... so that the church may be edified."? Consider how the New Testament Agabus foretold of a famine and was proven right.(Acts 21:10-12. Yet when this same man prophecied dire events through the Holy Spirit to Paul at Caeseria, Paul seemed to be unmoved. There is no mention that Agabus felt that his prophetic gift was rejected, only that they all agreed "the Lord's will be done."Paul did not despise, or even disagree with the fearful prediction of Agabus. It's just that Paul walked according to a fulfilled New Testament love that cast out fear; He lived for men to see Jesus Christ as he saw Him. I wonder, if I saw Jesus more clearly...would I be considered a prophet?Like Jeff reminded us..."For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." The closer one gets to the Lord the more the testimony of Him abides in the one who draws close.Blessings, MC

I liked MC's analogy there and a policeman isn't really necessary among the peaceful but where the trouble is. So would imagine you guy's will continue to be challenged on these things from those here, whether they are from the Lord or not, 'test all things', and that includes all our own opinions and thoughts, it's because we care too much to let the cautions and dangers be ignored. Besides it could just be bad pizzaHallelujah Brother Mike! It’s actually a little funny how this thread has turned out because you could swear this was not a forum but it was playing out in real life. As for me, there is a glib acknowledgement of what has been said here, and reluctant understanding but I feel we have all missed each other slightly at some point. I guess people suppose when one is referred to as a prophet it means that they are the most perfect Christians on God’s green Earth…I know for a indisputable fact that is not why I was called (is it okay for me to say that? ;-) ). But seriously though, we all need to take to heart what our role and ministry is a member of the body of Christ, first and foremost love and the fruit of the Spirit, but, apart from this there is still a work to be done dear saints. Satan is relentless, are we?James

None of us can ever take credit, so you're in good company brother. The NT says , "the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets". How do you hear that scripture?

That is a pretty profound statement, but it goes without saying that we are not called to be christians we are christians. I Don't know if that makes sense, it sounds different in my head than in print. Is that basically what you're saying? The nameing is more defined by the action than the title?

Brother if you will re-read my post that you quoted me from, I believe you'll understand what I was getting at. All of God's children go through the same thing basically, times when the anointing or the presence of God is so strong you can barely stand, the emotional ups and downs, the felling of rejection and the isolation from even the body of Christ. Ask any teacher of scripture, any exhorter, any preacher or pastor, and any christian worker. You'll find the experiences are all the same, just different circumstances , different settings. Rember Elijah ran thinking "he only", but God had reserved......unto himself...We are a body of believers who work together. God Bless Bro. Daryl

I kept you in prayer day and nite and was wondering if you were going to tell us what all happened on your recent missionary trip? God Bless Bro. Daryl

To me, a prophet is one who understands mysteries, and is able to proclaim them. He is one who can understand the language of angels (what God is saying in heaven. ie, mysteries), and equally the language of men, thereby able to proficiently communicate these mysteries, so that those with ears to hear, can understand. Not only can the prophet understand and proclaim these mysteries effectively, he has faith with which he can move mountains (affect change in seemingly impossible situations). The prophet willing pours out his life for the words sake, not witholding possessions, or even his own blood, if necessary.Mind you, the prophet is who has extraordinary love, without which the words he utters would be as "sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal", and this love, which considers self last, and the receiver to be the most important person apart from the Lord Himself, which leaves him always considering himself to be "nothing, and never profiting", as he understands the total impossibility of his task and necessary character. In a word, the prophet is broken.The prophet is honest beyond the point of incrimination. The prophet understands that truth and love are inseperable. This love makes the prophet willing to offend, when necessary, knowing that he risks having a "millstone tied around his neck" and being "cast into the sea", if he goes too far. This love makes the prophet willing to point out the folly of kings, knowing that it could mean his execution. The prophet understands what Asaph went through to write Psalm 73.As Art Katz put it, "A church that is not prophetic, is ipso-facto, not the church." God's plan is that all the church be prophetic. He calls all to be a prophet. And yet, in His wisdom, he declares that "Many are called, but few are chosen."As a young believer, I desired nothing more than to be a prophet (though I wouldn't admit it). The idea of predicting the future (notice, that I haven't mentioned this...although that would be considered to be a mystery). I "prophecied" over everything that moved. Some things I got right, and somethings I got wrong (and back then, I thought that this was okay), but deep down inside, I knew that that wasn't what God had for me. It was only six months ago when I finally accepted that God hadn't call me prophetically. I wept in my loungeroom, as he showed me my sin, of presumption. Then a weird thing happened. I began to understand mysteries. The Word openned up in a way alien to me, before this. His love started filling my heart, in a way I'd never known before. Not only could I understand the mysteries, but I could relate them to others. God seemed to be qualifying me for the "office" that I desired. Was this a green light? Was this some kind of "cruel joke"? No and no. God has given me a calling, and I've accepted it with honour. That calling is to be a labourer. I don't know if you've heard, but apparently, they are few. But the harvest is ripe. Maybe you guys are called to be prophets, maybe not. God bless you either way. Myself, I've been liberated from the need for any kind of title. My vain boasting presented here offends my own ears, deeply. The one glaring thing lacking, is the ability to avoid the temptation to be creative with the truth, when trouble arises, but I'm getting there. I don't need a title to bear the offences that come my way, that's what the cross is for. I don't know about you, but I'll take it up, and follow Him...splinters and all.

By the way...that qualification comes from 1 Corinthians 13...not 14.Those are the ones who are to "judge the prophets", because anyone else, will miss the point.

Br Mike wrote:So my honest conclusion is that a New Testament prophet is not satisfied with merely making straight the way for repentance, in unfulfilled longing and anticipation. Rather a New Testament prophet lifts up the revealed mystery, Jesus Christ, that the church may see Him more clearlySince Christ was revealed to man in the flesh, this announced the work of God that was foretold by the OT prophets. The mystery existed before Christ incarnate. The Mystery that walked with Israel has now also been revealed to us gentiles. But Christ still remains a mystery to those who are not led by the Spirit. Paul writes,1Cor. 2:6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, .....1Cor. 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. The mystery of Christ is revealed by the Spirit of God. A babe in Christ cannot know the mind of Christ according to Paul's teachings. All prophesy is encompassed in the work of Christ in the believer. The Spirit does not speak on His own authority, but gives to us that which is of Christ. 1 Cor 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. The darkness of the carnal mind did not comprehend the mystery of the "Life,", and the life was the light of men.In ChristJeff

As Art Katz put it, "A church that is not prophetic, is ipso-facto, not the church." God's plan is that all the church be prophetic.Thanks CJaKfOrEsT. I say a hearty "amen!" that all of the church is to be prophetic. Though I am just becoming aquainted with Art Katz through this website, I have been helped by what he has to say on the subject of Prophets. Rookie wroteBut Christ still remains a mystery to those who are not led by the Spirit.This includes too many of us in the church. Sadly this defines for me the mission of the NT prophet...not just a call to repentance from sins, but, perhaps more importantly, a call to a return to Jesus.

Brother James,There are two things that really spoke to my spirit in your post ...Quote:"We’re just average Joes just sent forth in the hope that the average Joe can relate, but ironically the “average Joe” is not looking for the “average Joe” ...Christ, the prophet of all prophets, appeared as an "average joe" ...Quote:"It’s actually a little funny how this thread has turned out because you could swear this was not a forum but it was playing out in real life" ...It is brother James ... It is! ... ;-) Br. R :beard:

Brother Rahman! You still love me?

bro robertI agree, signs and wonders canbe deceptive, we can't count on that but we can test the words of any prophet by bringing them before GOd, that should be the test I think. I have felt God minister to me in the very depths of my spirit but He doesn't stop there, He also minister to me through the common base things, things that we may take for granted. We indeed should be balanced in our walk and when we yield to the Holy spirit this can be attained. Being a prophet doesn't mean neglecting everything else or everyone else, we are not exempt from our daily Christian duties but rather we now have something beyond that to be responsible for.

bro MikeI am IRONMAN and that is, simply Jimm...that's "sons of thunder" we prefer that :-P I didn't quite graps how frustrating this whole work would be. Through it though I've learned to feel what God feels concerning us all and it is an emotional rollercoaster.Some of the things God shows us and says are imminent may not necessarily happen tomorrow, Jeremiah prophecied for how long before the invasion came? At the end of the day some prophecies will take a long while before they are realized while others may be instantaneous almost.at any rate, the only way is for us to take these words before God and have Him decide.

I'll ask another question. Is the gift of prophecy, spoken if in 1 Cor 12-14 the same as that of Ephesians 4?It would seem that in Corinthians it is the gift operating, but in Ephesians it is a Prophet equipping the saints to prophecy or to operate in that gifting. I am thinking along the lines of an impartation of gifting. I am presuming that something was passed onto Timothy when hands were laid on him.

To me, a prophet is one who understands mysteries, and is able to proclaim them. He is one who can understand the language of angels (what God is saying in heaven. ie, mysteries), and equally the language of men, thereby able to proficiently communicate these mysteries, so that those with ears to hear, can understand. Not only can the prophet understand and proclaim these mysteries effectively, he has faith with which he can move mountains (affect change in seemingly impossible situations). The prophet willing pours out his life for the words sake, not witholding possessions, or even his own blood, if necessary.Mind you, the prophet is who has extraordinary love, without which the words he utters would be as "sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal", and this love, which considers self last, and the receiver to be the most important person apart from the Lord Himself, which leaves him always considering himself to be "nothing, and never profiting", as he understands the total impossibility of his task and necessary character. In a word, the prophet is broken.The prophet is honest beyond the point of incrimination. The prophet understands that truth and love are inseperable. This love makes the prophet willing to offend, when necessary, knowing that he risks having a "millstone tied around his neck" and being "cast into the sea", if he goes too far. This love makes the prophet willing to point out the folly of kings, knowing that it could mean his execution. The prophet understands what Asaph went through to write Psalm 73.This is very romantic Brother Aaron… I wonder if such a person has ever walked the face of the Earth save Jesus Christ Himself! In that last statement however is the prophet’s and indeed every Christian’s saving clause. We (every Christians) can do nothing of ourselves and apart from the vine we will never “build up” these virtues until we are “worthy” of Him. The prophet is just a man Brother Aaron, and God chooses whom He will. The Lord did not choose me (sorry it’s unavoidable in this case) to be a prophet because I had “extraordinary love” or because I am “one who understands mysteries”. I cannot even claim that the Lord chose me for humility, for I was full of arrogance and self. The Lord in His sovereignty, did what He wanted to do.Prophets do not always completely understand what they are prophesying, as Peter says, “Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.” (I Peter 1:10-11) They prophesied a message but they still had to search diligently.Even John the Baptist sent to get a further confirmation from Jesus when He was in prison, as if to say, “are you really the fulfillment of my (I use “my” very loosely here)prophesy?” Jeremiah, lamented to His death, Ezekiel was tough as nails, Isaiah was a nobleman, Elijah was a country boy, Jacob was a stubborn trickster, Abraham “believed God”, Moses was the “meekest man in all the earth”, David was “a man after God’s own heart”, Solomon was “the wisest man that ever lived”…. Is there any real correlation here or did God just do what he wanted to do? I tell you in all honesty, God does not chose men based on their virtues but base on His own virtues. People are right to an extent when they say, “if you can be a prophet so can I”, but it is not I who chooses, it is God. I pray that we would stop seeing these things in terms of rank, but as an expression of Christ, it is not an expression of mark mind you. I can take credit for nothing whatsoever. I do not look out and wisely at “the world” and the Church choose the best course of action and what message I should prepare and deliver. I just follow instructions. I cannot chose what to prophesy about. I have to pray and seek just as diligently as everyone else. If stop praying and seeking I will backslide, there is no intrinsic power or virtue in me. I am nothing, in fact, I am less than nothing because I am actually harmful should I choose to act on my own, so not only do I not have positive virtues apart from Christ, I actually have negative and detrimental traits. People are looking for wonderful personalities but in the Church there is only one personality and that is Jesus Christ, and we are all an expression of that Person. There is not member of the body that is so important that we should all be conformed to it, so please guys, ease up on the “we need more ‘true prophets’” deal. What we need is not more prophets but we need everyone include you to start activating there faith and sacrificing themselves for the Lord. What we need is not more prophets but more Christ in everyone. We do not need any heroes coming to save the day with “mountain moving faith” but we need a collective effort from the whole body. The statements you made about a prophet apply to everyone who names the name of Christ openly. We should all be “willing to pour out our lives for the Words sake, not withholding possessions, or even our own blood, if necessary.” Sell all you have, including your personality and follow Him.I received a revelation to the effect that, “those who are not seeking after Truth will certainly not find it”. It is good to be on the look out for false prophets and false Christs but we should be more on the look out for truth, rather than employ a shoot anything that “moves” (whether by the Spirit or not) attitude. I imagine the Pharisees having a conversation and one of them asking aloud if any believed this miracle working Jesus of Nazareth or if they would like to hear Him, and one responds with all sincerity and conviction, “The Christ is to come out of Bethlehem according to the scriptures. Biblically this man does not fit the criteria. I will not so much as hear Him, because he has already failed my test, in that He does not fit the biblical definition.”Of course they could not truly have know where He was born unless they truly and sincerely, without and bias, sought out that information. The Pharisees were sincere in that they were looking for the Christ, but they had defined Him into a box, and unfortunately, Jesus did not fit into that box. Even after they killed Him they felt justified, because had He been the true Christ they could not have killed Him and He would have fulfilled the scripture and “restored Israel”. It is sad, that these people missed Christ because they were not looking for Him they were looking for something to put into their box. I wonder if the Lords servant today are not experiencing something similar. Today we are looking for wonder saint to turn the world upside down, when the Lord may have a different agenda, even as small as your own community or neighborhood (love thy neighbor?). We are not looking for a true expression of the Church, we are looking for a grand expression, that will show the world that we are not crazy for what we believe, this expression may or may not come in our lifetime but while were here right now…Mrs. Thompson down the road is dead inside and desperately needs the Lord…think about it.James

There is a gifting of prophesy thats available to the who so evers in the body and there are those who the Lord for his own purposes sets apart as His prophets for the work of matureing the body of believers. But the giftings of the Holy Spirit are available to all the individual believers.

James,You are reading too much into that;We (every Christians) can do nothing of ourselves and apart from the vine we will never “build up” these virtues until we are “worthy” of Him. The prophet is just a man Brother Aaron, and God chooses whom He will. The Lord did not choose me (sorry it’s unavoidable in this case) to be a prophet because I had “extraordinary love” or because I am “one who understands mysteries”. I cannot even claim that the Lord chose me for humility, for I was full of arrogance and self. The Lord in His sovereignty, did what He wanted to do.Think 'outcome' not 'references'.People are right to an extent when they say, “if you can be a prophet so can I”, but it is not I who chooses, it is God. I pray that we would stop seeing these things in terms of rank, but as an expression of Christ, it is not an expression of mark mind you. I can take credit for nothing whatsoever.Taking 'to an extent' into consideration, perhaps in the light of "God is not a respecter of persons" would agree up to that point, but the danger is that far too many have taken something similar to this and ran with it and now we have the confusion of Babel all over again. That is why by and large some of us find this to be absolute nonsense. Because by and large there has been some kind of kooky idea that has spawned all these 'prophetic' ministries in the last what 20 to 50 years? Where are all the 'prophets' from the 1800's, 1700, so on and so on back?Look at the few who made this claim and what spawned from them, a Joseph Smith or a Charles Taze Russell;""How can an individual write such extreme praise of himself and his writings, attach such enormous, crucial, vital importance to his writings, argue for his being a special, one of a kind, never-before-seen, never-to-be-repeated agent of God and then impute a lack of meekness and humility and teachableness to those who doubt this?" "I view Russell as having a form of mental illness, an infection from the germs of self-centeredness that breed wherever an atmosphere of personal importance and power develops."Raymond Franz - In Search of Christian http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/theslave3.htmlJust an example and again speaking in generalities here, but one thing that keeps cropping up time and time again; This penchant towards always having to defend themselves. And like MC stated, we want to see a badge here, where are your 'credentials'?, not your defense of them.Another aspect to all this is in how closely tied all this is to the WOF, prosperity gospel, health and wealth and so on. What is the catch all phrase when a badge is asked for from these folks?"Touch not the Lords anointed", again, on the defensive.Another commonality to all this is in exalting 'experience' over just solid scripture evidence. Being a Berean is no longer noble but a detriment, 'quenching' the Spirit. A lot of it is clever in how it is manipulated to pit one against the other, this subtle mind game of planting seeds of doubt, that the so called 'prophet' can't be touched or questioned, those that do get the axiomatic label, "Pharisees",'Don't listen to them'.What it has produced is a whole generation of not only easy-believism, seeking after signs and wonders, materialism, 'what's in it for me', self help, self exalting, self centered, surface level faith that hardly resembles anything other than vain imaginations run wild with Christian overtones. It has become less and less of an exchanged life and more and more of just an outward show of things. Biblically this man does not fit the criteria. I will not so much as hear Him, because he has already failed my test, in that He does not fit the biblical definition.”That is somewhat of a reach and perhaps is being spoken in the same 'generalities', but as it applies here, I don't think it applies here at all. This isn't my or our test, but the admonishment of "Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good". For all the post's and threads on this whole area which are many, it still seems the definition remains fuzzy at best, that by and large this whole idea as it is termed and used in our day is blatantly false... it doesn't mean what they think it means and maybe the biggest reason for that is a stubborn refusal to heed...2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.Isn't the 'credentials' contained right within these words? "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Wouldn't that extract out any necessity of having to be on the defensive?We can thank God that there is still some that will refuse the nonsense, turn tail and head back down the path, back through Christian History to learn what our roots are, to get back to the core foundation of set truth's and glean from those men of God who knew their God and proclaimed Jesus as the end of all argument.It's interesting that even amongst a Tozer or a Ravenhill you don't here the sniveling defensiveness of what a 'prophet' must bear, they may talk of being broken of having their spiritual chops busted up, but so have many a saint that has gone down into the depths, at the core of their being and having that exposed to the Light been torn asunder, scorched in the fiery furnace and leveled to the dust of where they came from.Take all this for what it is intended, that there is some latitude given for some of those here that are struggling with what they feel to believe are callings to this....'office' (we have been over that, but lacking a better term) and not being hostile about it the muddy middle of it all is in the 'sides' if it must be causing some reflection. That some have gone to extremes in guarding against the sheep nappers does not make them Pharisaical nor unbelieving nor narrow minded. If it isn't apparent yet that the things that cross our minds need to be filtered and re-filtered and tested by fire and tested by the brethren... I can say by experience that this inbreed distrust of my own thought's, the occasional 'apparent' 'visions', the dreams, the things I think may be what the Lord is communicating to the inward man has a caution written all over it and the reason is a large portion of it can't be trusted. The mind is being renewed day by day, it is still suspect to it's own failings, imaginations and the twisting of the devils lies or that of his minions. We shouldn't expect these type's of things to be overt but subtle, a little twist here and there and we can be off on all kinds of tangents. Did the devil not use scripture itself against our Lord? Wretched it out of context, but the very Truth we hold to is attempted to be used against us."The devil is a better theologian than any of us and is a devil still." A.W.TozerIf there is any prophetic utterance needed today it ought to be "Let My people think".Edit: Speaking of things coming to mind...2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Hey Brother DarylNot to zero in on you dear Brother, but I realize I have not answered some of your questions. there are those who the Lord for his own purposes sets apart as His prophets for the work of matureing the body of believers.You believe the believers need a prophet to mature in Christ? All a servant of the Lord can do is plant and water, maturity comes from the Lord. None of us can ever take credit, so you're in good company brother. The NT says , "the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets". How do you hear that scripture?I have a very high awareness of my own spirit but even that is not sufficient to serve the Lord. Even my spirit, “built in true holiness after the Lord” (as the spirits of all believers) cannot survive and be holy apart from the vine. My spirit is indeed subject to me, but even more subject to the Lord. I said that: I have not said, that I can never control the prophesies but I have said at times (rarely) there is so much unction I can resist it. Most times I can just ignore the word He has placed on my heart but other times when I am deep in the Spirit the word flows almost involuntarily, not that I’ve really tried my hardest to stop the word (I have never had the desire to do so) but I have to say when the Lord will speak He will speak. Who can resist the Lord?I guess it only feels like I cannot stop at these times, because I dare not stop. It is a holy fear of the moving of the Spirit of the Lord. I am not in “danger” of prophesying while I am eating a sandwich or talking to the store clerk or anything like that, it is that after I have made myself available for prophesy and the Lord has consented and given me a word, the longer I stay in the Spirit, the loser my grip on the steering wheel is. Even when there is a heavy word on my heart, if I do not “initiate” it will not proceed. I can “hold my peace” pretty much all day even when there is an unction to speak, I can even ignore it and quench it (the unction) and quench the Spirit until I am completely numb to it but honestly, I would rather not. (I think I have learnt my lesson in that area).James

Brother MikeThank you for your post Brother. It almost seems as if we are talking about two different subjects. You seem to have put me as defending every one who thinks they are a prophet, I am not. Think 'outcome' not 'references'I am sorry… I do not understand that statement. Could you please elaborate? Taking 'to an extent' into consideration, perhaps in the light of "God is not a respecter of persons" would agree up to that point, but the danger is that far too many have taken something similar to this and ran with it and now we have the confusion of Babel all over again. That is why by and large some of us find this to be absolute nonsense. Because by and large there has been some kind of kooky idea that has spawned all these 'prophetic' ministries in the last what 20 to 50 years? Where are all the 'prophets' from the 1800's, 1700, so on and so on back? How can an individual write such extreme praise of himself and his writings, attach such enormous, crucial, vital importance to his writings, argue for his being a special, one of a kind, never-before-seen, never-to-be-repeated agent of God and then impute a lack of meekness and humility and teachableness to those who doubt thisOkay, what does this have to do with me? Have I ever posted anything even remotely resembling what you have pointed out here? Just an example and again speaking in generalities here, but one thing that keeps cropping up time and time again; This penchant towards always having to defend themselves. And like MC stated, we want to see a badge here, where are your 'credentials'?, not your defense of them.I am not defending myself, rather I am defending the administration of prophets. There is much falsehood but let not this blind us from the administration altogether, supposing that every prophet is a false prophet. I am sorry I cannot defend every prophet, I can only speak for myself. Again, I do not carry a badge other than Christ in me….how can I demonstrate this over the forum. Rather, ask yourselves, how have I behaved myself on this forum in all the time you have known me? Is this also another deception? What is have I spoken about? Is this too another deception. Another aspect to all this is in how closely tied all this is to the WOF, prosperity gospel, health and wealth and so on. What is the catch all phrase when a badge is asked for from these folks?"Touch not the Lords anointed", again, on the defensive.I HATE the prosperity gospel! Have I ever said, “follow me, and I will lead you into all mysteries and riches in this world”? Come on man. The generalities are a little frustrating. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I study my Bible diligently and I encourage it but I assert that the Bible is just a means to an end (Christ), it is not and end in itself. What it has produced is a whole generation of not only easy-believism, seeking after signs and wonders, materialism, 'what's in it for me', self help, self exalting, self centered, surface level faith that hardly resembles anything other than vain imaginations run wild with Christian overtones. It has become less and less of an exchanged life and more and more of just an outward show of things.Is this a reference to me or just a general observation? As it so happens I have also seen this in false prophets but, have I given you the impression that this is what I preach? On one hand I am told I am “reading too much into this” on the other hand I must show a badge. I must both defend myself and not defend myself at the same time, again, I say, I defend not only myself but also the true administration. Re-read what I wrote and you will see that I did not accuse anyone of being a Pharisee. I made a general observation of what can hinder the search for truth- bias and assumptions. The Pharisees really did not “test” Jesus, they defined Him away. We must all have some healthy skepticism but we must never forget to also listen for the truth, and view the whole message, rather than quote little snippets out of context. This is not an attack on you dear Brother Mike, but I just felt moved to say that. I hope no one is offended by this. Please take a deep breath and re-read this before you post- the Lord knows I need to do the same! :-)James

Jimm wrote:It almost seems as if we are talking about two different subjects. You seem to have put me as defending every one who thinks they are a prophet, I am not.With what standard do you, personally, distinguish between the two?

Brother Daryl you asked,"Brother Rahman! You still love me"?Well brother D to fracture Rom. 8:35-39 just slightly let me answer ... "Who shall separate us from the love of (one another in) Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, (nor the SI Forum) shall be able to separate us from the love of (one another in) God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" ... :-P Of course i love you man, i never stopped, this is one of the most important things Holy Spirit has taught me on this Forum, disagreements and differences of opinion are momentary in the light of the eternal love we share as joint heir in Christ ... "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" ... John 13:34,35 This kind of love is the "oil" that assures the easy fluidity of all things working toward for our good ... Amen

With what standard do you, personally, distinguish between the two?A false prophet has to many faces to define, I can only speak for my self and say I am not ‘pushing’ anything other than Jesus Christ. I do not even have a program or a plan (not that that is necessarily a virtue) on what we should do next or where God will pour out His Spirit. I cannot promise you riches and good times, because I myself am not looking for that neither do I believe I should or any Christian for that matter. I do not have a mailing list or a church for you to join (again, these are not necessarily bad things). I am not asking you to commit to me and my way of living, but rather to the Lord. I do not have anything of myself to give you nor do I want anything from you, other than to simply believe that God is not watching helplessly as the Devil raises false prophet after false prophets but the Lord has His servants (not all prophets) activated even now. I am so ordinary that I can understand why people do not believe what I say. I have not claimed to have obtained “it” but I am a fellow sojourner learning from others as I go, I press on closer and closer to the mark. I know I have not been gifted to just serve myself and be ‘fruitful’ quiet Christian, but I am eager to serve, in any capacity, even if it is just to one member of the body. Are we still okay so far?James

Brother (Farai) Ironman,This old well may be tapped out on this subject but you young wells (you and James) certainly seem to be full of gush! ... :-P ... i'm enjoying the reading of this thread .... :-D i like this observation ..."we are not exempt from our daily Christian duties but rather we now have something beyond that to be responsible for" ...These two scriptures come to mind in reference to you both ...Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them ... Ecc. 12:1"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity" ... 1Tim. 4:12Follow Jesus as Holy Spirit points the way, for He will never point to anyone else, or lift up anyone else but Jesus ... Amen

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, (nor the SI Forum) shall be able to separate us from the love of (one another in) God, which is in Christ Jesus our LordAmen! :lol:

As it always seems....running short on time here.James, real quick. Give the 'walking in the Spirit' thread a gander, it might lend some perspective... My tendencies is to speak in generalities and that often comes from bouncing off of things mentioned here, not as a lumping together of particulars to anyone... in particular. Hate to leave you hanging, but will come back to this.You guys are still loved here... ask Rahman 8-)

All that you wrote I can attest to as well. I'm in the same predicament as you.I am always encouraged by you Brother Lahry. 1 Peter 5:8-9 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.James

As it always seems....running short on time here.James, real quick. Give the 'walking in the Spirit' thread a gander, it might lend some perspective... My tendencies is to speak in generalities and that often comes from bouncing off of things mentioned here, not as a lumping together of particulars to anyone... in particular. Hate to leave you hanging, but will come back to this.You guys are still loved here... ask RahmanThanks Brother Mike...I am still chewing over that thread...I'll be in touch.JamesPS: you should get MSN messenger!

Brother James wrote;"I am always encouraged by you Brother Lahry". Me too! ... :-D

A true prophet will speak of these things that Christ is doing in this world. He will preach of the glory that is in Christ and lift up those who are seeking Him. He will preach about the rod of Christ for those who reject Him. Listen to the work of Christ in all generations.Is. 63:1 Who is this who comes from Edom,\tWith dyed garments from Bozrah,\tThis One who is glorious in His apparel,\tTraveling in the greatness of His strength?—\t“I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.” 2 \tWhy is Your apparel red,\tAnd Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? 3 \t“I have trodden the winepress alone,\tAnd from the peoples no one was with Me.\tFor I have trodden them in My anger,\tAnd trampled them in My fury;\tTheir blood is sprinkled upon My garments,\tAnd I have stained all My robes. 4 \tFor the day of vengeance is in My heart,\tAnd the year of My redeemed has come. 5 \tI looked, but there was no one to help,\tAnd I wondered\tThat there was no one to uphold;\tTherefore My own arm brought salvation for Me;\tAnd My own fury, it sustained Me. 6 \tI have trodden down the peoples in My anger,\tMade them drunk in My fury,\tAnd brought down their strength to the earth.” 7 \tI will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD\tAnd the praises of the LORD,\tAccording to all that the LORD has bestowed on us,\tAnd the great goodness toward the house of Israel,\tWhich He has bestowed on them according to His mercies,\tAccording to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. 8 \tFor He said, “Surely they are My people,\tChildren who will not lie.”\tSo He became their Savior. 9 \tIn all their affliction He was afflicted,\tAnd the Angel of His Presence saved them;\tIn His love and in His pity He redeemed them;\tAnd He bore them and carried them\tAll the days of old. 10 \tBut they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;\tSo He turned Himself against them as an enemy,\tAnd He fought against them. 11 \tThen he remembered the days of old,\tMoses and his people, saying:\t“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea\tWith the shepherd of His flock?\tWhere is He who put His Holy Spirit within them, 12 \tWho led them by the right hand of Moses,\tWith His glorious arm,\tDividing the water before them\tTo make for Himself an everlasting name, 13 \tWho led them through the deep,\tAs a horse in the wilderness,\tThat they might not stumble?” 14 \tAs a beast goes down into the valley,\tAnd the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,\tSo You lead Your people,\tTo make Yourself a glorious name. He will lead His people and give them rest. He will cause the beast to be thrown into the lake of fire. As one abides in Christ one will also have the mind of Christ.We are all called to be priests. The function of the priest in the OT was to hear the words of God and then minister to the people. But like then so it is now. We have become dull of hearing. Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:\t“You are a priest forever\tAccording to the order of Melchizedek”; 7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become DULL of HEARING. Heb. 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. In ChristJeff

I try hard not to offend my brothers and sisters however I feel that sometimes I do, I'm pretty abrasive at times and don't mean to be. I think its my writing style because my spoken words are very different than that of what I can type. But there were several things you said that I had to take and ask God to help me change because without you knowing it they brought a sense of conviction that I had to deal with. The wounds of a friend(brother) are faithful. God Bless, thank you for your prayers. Bro. Daryl

This thread has moved at the speed of light, I mean wow, when I last checked there weren't as many posts. It seems this topic is a touchy one. At the root of it all I feel that many of us are still trying to figure out what role God has for us in His kingdom. We all do have our regular Christian duties to do but God expects more of us. Those things are good but we also need to think about works which will abide the fire, works born of the spirit. I must say that now that God has revealed to me my purpose in this life, everything I do makes sense. Everything that has been God has used to bring me to this point that He may be glorified. I pray that we all realize our calling and not only that but take hold of it and RUN with it as far as GOd would have us go.

Hi James,Had to detach from all this for awhile to give it more thought, but briefly to answer this question:Think 'outcome' not 'references'Stemmed from what came before it from Aaron:To me, a prophet is one who understands mysteries, and is able to proclaim them. He is one who can understand the language of angels (what God is saying in heaven. ie, mysteries), and equally the language of men, thereby able to proficiently communicate these mysteries, so that those with ears to hear, can understand. Not only can the prophet understand and proclaim these mysteries effectively, he has faith with which he can move mountains (affect change in seemingly impossible situations). The prophet willing pours out his life for the words sake, not witholding possessions, or even his own blood, if necessary.And your reply:We (every Christians) can do nothing of ourselves and apart from the vine we will never “build up” these virtues until we are “worthy” of Him. The prophet is just a man Brother Aaron, and God chooses whom He will. The Lord did not choose me (sorry it’s unavoidable in this case) to be a prophet because I had “extraordinary love” or because I am “one who understands mysteries”. I cannot even claim that the Lord chose me for humility, for I was full of arrogance and self. The Lord in His sovereignty, did what He wanted to do.So the thought was toward 'credentials' being something after the fact not as anything one would bring to the table. Aaron wasn't stating anything of 'qualifications', filthy rags are still filthy rags and you obviously realize that by your response. Pretty well tapped out on all this and likely have gone overboard with the cautions. It stems outward from all that was said before, from observance of what has been going on in our time and personal experience both from contact with this 'style' if you will, but also inwardly, finding that an awful lot of things I think the Lord is or may be communicating to the inner man on later reflection find were generated from somewhere else. Or, perhaps that I just misunderstood and was to hasty to go 'proclaim' it before I even understood it.Have mentioned it before but, "seems" is a safeguard not of unbelief, but as a buttress to the things the flesh can generate, the devil can manipulate and even the world can postulate. (now I am trying to be poetic...). Not to build a doctrine around a section of verses but these come to mind;Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. Jam 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Not attempting to make these say anything not meant, but to again bring in that sense of caution... in general. Think of all the warnings in scripture when it comes to these things. "Beware" "Be sober" "On your guard" "Watch out for" "Test" over and over again. It still keeps coming back to definitions. The 'forth-telling' and the 'telling forth'. Take someone like Art Katz, is he a 'prophet'? Some would say yes, without a doubt, others no and still some might say.... well, it depends. I would be of the later sort. Does he speak 'prophetically'? I think so when it comes to many area's of spiritual truth, that cutting to the core of things, being completely honest with ourselves, this is not a man dealing with mere trifles, he is blessed in bringing out some things that could be construed more like what Mike Tyson did to Evander Holyfield than the tickling that goes on anymore in our day. But as to his eschatology and 'predictions', surely he is convinced that they will play out in that manner and frankly am not studied well enough to give any opinion one way or the other, it is well enough to hold it in abeyance without discounting the former. At the same time being that the question was raised here towards 'credentials' does he not have some in this regard? One that I am not sure got touched on here is character and there is no disputing that with him, it comes through in his messages and as some can attest to having some contact with the man, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! And am fairly sure that if one was to approach him only on the basis of believing that because he does have some character and therefore is a 'prophet' without really delving into all these things, being of a Berean mindset and testing what he says and believes he would see right through you and send you packing with your tail between your legs.Another example would be David Wilkerson. Without rehashing all that has come before, my recollection is muddy but believe that he has in his long fruitful service has both made mistakes and made amends as well as been misunderstood in this whole realm. The times when he has said "I think" this is what the Lord is saying or "I believe the Lord is telling me..." that such an such is on the horizon carries far more weight because it is just being honest about it, it is placing the doubt where it belongs, on ones self, not on the possibilities of God.There is an awful lot more that could be said here. There is much to the thought of whether or not these particular 'gifts' are even in operation today or in just what they are construed to be by many to mean. Frankly I just don't know, nor do I feel compelled to have to come to any conclusion one way or the other. It's almost funny because it works in the same way as the ones that feel they have this particular 'gifting'. This outside force that wants to put you into it's mold of "You must decide, your wishy-washy, your sitting on the fence" and to that I would say. "Yep" What of it? That's not pride (I hope):-D But that it is not necessary to force a conclusion and then let that be the standard to let everything be judged by, a whittling away of something I am holding to. We can be absolutely convinced about many things only to find given enough time, that we are just flat out wrong, if we are honest enough about it.It could be likened to how we approach even scriptures themselves. Believe it was Zac Poonen that made the comment of coming to the Bible everyday with the idea in mind of forgetting everything we think we know about it and letting it speak to us as if for the very first time, and have married into that idea because it takes the wind out of you and forces one to see things from a different perspective every time, leaving our presumptions behind. Certainly it is an imperfect science and there is some sanctified stretching here, the intent not meaning to throw away everything you have learned nor to take ones brain out to the trash can, but a willingness to lay down everything including our sanctified thought, making it subject to Gods Word.Will bow out of this long winded essay with a couple of things. I also realize the true expression that we believers are trying to form into mere words and that struggle within to force them out into intelligent thought. As I told our dear friend and brother Rahman who I love dearly, "I believe you" and just as well the same could be said for the Sons of Thunder here. And by that what I mean is that I do not find anything mischievous, deceitful or that the things that you all believe the Lord is telling you are flat out wrong, false or otherwise and at the same time nor do I believe that a lot of these utterances being couched in the 'prophetic' language are always 'prophetic'. A lot of the times the same things are being said by others and the hunch is that it is just the normative workings of the Holy Spirit amongst believers, that sense of what Paul stated: 1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment. You all have a passion for the Lord that is evident. You all are brethren here, the Holy Spirit dwells within you as in us, none of that is in dispute. What is said often times... well, that's what we are dealing with here and I think that was the whole intention of what is meant by how and what we are to judge when it comes to each other.So the generalities, the cautions, the warnings all of it meant with the intention and keeping in mind to the greater audience here. How many unknowns out there peering in on these things? Some that are caught up in much of this 'prophetic' business as many of us once were? Reading these things, could there be unbelievers out there cruising through here? I certainly hope so and no we need not be concerned with what they think of us, but of God and Jesus Christ, His Son, we are but His witness, that we might always be concerned of that first and foremost.And so the caution.

Brother Ironman you wrote:"At the root of it all I feel that many of us are still trying to figure out what role God has for us in His kingdom" ... Hallelujah ... In the midst of so much complacency i can just see our Lord smilling about us ALL being so pointed in this diligent seeking of Him, His Kingdom, and His righteousness, and His place for us in the workings ... Not a pat on the back for this is but our reasonable service, but just the thought of bringing a smile to our Father and Saviour is such a good thought ... i wish that so many of the recent SI Forum detractors could see (as this thread attests) what Holy Spirit is capable of accomplishing when we allow Him to operate us in His true Spirit of Christian love and brotherhood ... This thread is working in the spirit realm and in each participants spirit in ways that we don't even realize yet ... As i dare say much of SI has and does ... God bless US ALL, and may He continue to bless SI ... Amen

Fellow saints ...You might find this interesting ...#2 - This Is Exactly How i Feel SI! ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5526&forum=35Some excerpts from Os Guinness's book "Prophetic Untimeliness" ... Man what a powerful little book!

crsschk wrote:So the thought was toward 'credentials' being something after the fact not as anything one would bring to the table. Aaron wasn't stating anything of 'qualifications', filthy rags are still filthy rags and you obviously realize that by your response. Thank you Mike, you saved me the trouble of replying. I've always felt that we seem to be on similar pages (especially, when one considers our average amount of pages per post :-P). Having said that, I wish to add one thought.Jim,I'd appreciate that you reread my post that sparked Mikes comments. I'm in no way trying to assert that a prophet is "perfect" in his conduct, more that he is perfect in his acknowledgement of his own inadequacy. The reality is, most theologians place each of the "five fold ministries" (remembering that the passage in Ephesians is about people, not job descriptions) fit under the categorie of eldership in the church. The idea being, not all elders are "five fold ministers", but that all "five fold ministers" are elders.If this is the case, then the qualifications ofor elders/bishops in 1 Timothy and Titus apply. It isn't a matter of God choising any old person to be a prophet, and then allowing any kind of conduct, while still endorsing him, but that he has a higher expectation from him, as one "to whom much is given, much is expected." I say this in brokeness (I wish I were speaking, as it would be more evident), and out of concern. There appears to be a flippant kind of, "Well all I know is, that I'm a prophet, and who am I to argue." The one who God has entrusted with mysteries (not implying that the prophet knows "all mysteries" that there are to know) walks the earth in near terror, at the gravity of the responsability that God has given him. Listen to a man like Katz (who I believe is the clearest example of a prophet, in our time, and a stark contrast to the bulk of 'false prophets' out there), and you'll see what I mean. He'll, at one minute insist that it is possible to be 'perfect', then humbly admit that he isn't. He'll speak of times when he has been in the perfect will of God, then of times of near depravity. All the while not compromising his message, even when it means that the cross hairs will be directed toward his own life.Where talking about "Prophetic Credentials" here, however I would level a claim of being romantic toward my accuser of the same, due to an apparent ignorance to the existance of such a thing. Pleas hear me the right way, I don't mean this in anyway judgmentally, simply to state a fact, which I have been saying all along, with increasing bluntness. I am trying to not be offensive (note, I have already admitted to not having a "prophetic calling"). Please forgive me for not being this plain to begin with, I'm still learning where the line is, and when to cross it. Perhaps this, even, is not the right time.

:-P Thanks Aaron, it is funny sometimes. The amount of words that it can take to try and express things that are of an inward nature, think that is why the tendencies to latch on to certain saints of the past (and even the present) that can articulate that leap in the womb experience so much better, so much more articulately, we mere amateur scribes... Though feeling much exhausted by all the run on sentences and peculiar sense of being on guard dog duty towards all this, it did leave the residue of thought that perhaps not an semi-automatic but a Shepperd's crook might be a better use of 'weapons'.It caused some reflection on application towards many other area's of 'sorting through' matters of faith and trust, the inward promptings from the Holy Spirit and that whole twisted devil inspired concept of 'either/or' thinking.The breakdown is in a fear of planting doubt, when caution is the intent. The tendencies to 'latch' onto a series of comments and make that ipso-facto "oh, then you are saying...then you believe that...or, you don't believe then that..."so on and so on as it applies to 'gifts','prophecies','prophets', 'speaking in tongues' etc. To be honest at the core means to reflect on all of it and it's truly a wonder and a great thing that happens here amongst ourselves. For me the things that I can carry away from here, that reside in my thinking for days on end, all sparked from the sharing of our thoughts, experience and even those clever devils themselves...opinions! 8-) To the point, the questions raised are;Am I back-peddling?And if so, do I now squirm out of it? Did I mean what I said?Did I say what I meant?Listen to a man like Katz (who I believe is the clearest example of a prophet, in our time, and a stark contrast to the bulk of 'false prophets' out there), and you'll see what I mean. He'll, at one minute insist that it is possible to be 'perfect', then humbly admit that he isn't. He'll speak of times when he has been in the perfect will of God, then of times of near depravity. All the while not compromising his message, even when it means that the cross hairs will be directed toward his own life.Inserted that here as it seems to sum up my own sentiments so well. The lines of thought that have been implanted from that dear man, the snippets of comments... "Who is worthy of such things...?" "I stutter and stammer and gasp at my God", a bit of paraphrasing there but in effect it is just more of that paradoxical effect of that which you made analogy to: To carry a sense of uncertainty in the message bearer, but have none towards the God that beckons us onwards.So to make a long story short :-P ... I did get much out of this whole thing, it gave pause to that which is of faith stemming from and in the inward parts and that which has been leavened with the contamination of the fallen head syndrome. Pity the poor scribe just a moment longer. It may seem backward but this reduction business is becoming more and more wonderful everyday. I believe more now than ever before but in such a completely different way. My assurance that God will do just as He well pleases to do is becoming so apparent that the circumstances being leveled of such an insane sort that I would have to be un-born-again to fully apprehend the absurdity of it all. There is enough residue left to see it in a natural way and even ponder for just a sinister moment the thought if the Lord had not changed this crooked disposition I know I would have left all of this 'life' and gone back to my wallowing in the mud in a season of sin. But the blessed hope and ability now to see it for what it is, a lie dressed up in shining clothes... "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:33)A little sideways there but as it applies to all this business of prophets and prophecies, the stickler poking me in the side is; 1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesying. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Well, #3 in order here have beaten into the ground. #2, is the goad, and #1 my 'worry'.For all those here that feel this is there calling, their compulsion or compelling the hope is that all of us might take all three here and hold them in that sense of trinitarian doctrine that we hold to, not three 'separate' but one whole.Forgive my undue grief that may have been caused. I had to look honestly at some of the things I had said here to see where the training wheels had fallen off. I most certainly believe the Lord still speaks to us in an inward way by the Holy Spirit and still think a lot of things get mangled in the broken cisterns of our minds and can come out causing all kinds of bells and whistles and alarms to go off.What the Lord is telling us as individuals and what He may be communicating to the saints 'corporately' through us is where maybe we ought to be more prayerful about, not that we don't share, but that we don't put an explanation point where a question mark goes. The things of the Lord that are mysterious to us, the wonder of a certain scripture verse jumping up and grabbing us with a different 'revelation' as it where, meaning perspective, though we have read it a thousand times... It goes back to the three fold 'test' there in 1Th 5. A little example that came again in my recent reading of Mr. Tozer's life was this phrase; "thinking Gods thoughts after Him" There is an old post around here to this, but the recollection was of very early on in this walk that line 'popped' into my head seemingly out of 'nowhere'. In fact it so gripped me, that I remember getting home from work and just digging through my bible and every version of the scriptures I could find trying to figure out where this came from, it just had to be in there. The way it came to me was in a slight twist "thinking My thoughts after Me" as if the Lord was talking directly to me, but it just wasn't in there and I was puzzled, did I read it somewhere else? Did I hear it on the radio and it got subconsciously absorbed? Or did the Lord sovereignly 'place' it or 'speak it' directly to me? It wasn't until a few years later that the source of it came about, that I have forgotten now, (some blessed dead saint) but for the life of me how it got there, in my head will remain a mystery.But thank God for it, it is all that matters and I am glad it got in there, it is all that I strive after.

Brothers Aaron and MikeFirst of all, please forgive the long absence, I have bee out of town and I have only just returned to reflect once again on this matter. It is obviously an important matter and I am quite impressed with how things have developed so far. Upon reflection we actually agree more than we disagree but tragically I think it is hard for you to really understand what I am saying because you have such powerful minds! I must be exceedingly accurate with you gentlemen because a little generalization on my part can throw off the whole topic. I have read and re-read what you have written and I believe I understand what you are saying.I think where you have thrown me off from the start, is with the word “credentials”, a word that is synonymous to a job application. This is the main thrust off my objection Brothers. Perhaps a more appropriate heading would have been, “attributes of a mature prophet”. As with any calling there is an induction stage before you finally reach your stride in Christ. Sadly some prophets do not make it out of this induction stage, but this does not (according to my judgment) disqualify them from being what they have been called to be. (For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Roman 11:29). Let me illustrate this point with a simplified example. Say you are hired to be a hospital porter. You are not going to be very useful to the hospital until you have learnt your way around the hospital. You are still in training but if someone asks you what you do, you will simply reply, “I am a porter”. You do not state that you are training to be a porter, because you have already been hired and you are in fact a porter, yet you are becoming more and more efficient at your job. Of course at the hospital if you do not improve, they will simply fire you, but this is not the way of the Lord. The Lord has reserved a day in the which all the secretes of men will be revealed and judged and everyone will have to give an account of their stewardship. Indeed, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Mathew 7:22)You may believe that if a prophet does not mature that of necessity makes him a “false prophet”. I see the logic behind your statement but it is only a skin deep assessment, one that judges according to the wisdom of men and not of God. Now, please understand, I do not in any way believe that we should follow after immature prophets, this is not my point at all but I do insist that to refer to them as “false” is an error. Compare King David and King Saul. David recognized that Saul was not functioning as he should have but, who was he to judge another Person’s (God) servant? There is a judgment that recognizes error and fault, to which we are exhorted (Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?-1 Cor3:6) and there is another judgment that, having recognized error and fault, passes sentence (For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again Matt 7:2). We do not have that authority dear saint. David cannot simply declare that Saul is no longer the King, until the hand of the Lord has removed him.To accuse one of being a false prophet is a very serious accusation and should not be made lightly dear saints. A false prophet is not chosen by God, but by Satan, and is actively and consciously leading people away from Jesus Christ. Please note that there are some bad (as in immature) prophets and bad teachers, but this does not necessarily make them ‘false”. These, who teach wrong doctrine not out of deceit and greed but, out of immaturity I believe are refered to in by the Lord when He says, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mathew 5:19). Note that these poor teachers are still in fact “in the kingdom of heaven”. This is perhaps the best “story” of a “false prophet” in the New Testament:“ And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?” (Acts 13:6-10)”Notice the intensity with which Paul speaks against this man…this is not just a case of pastor misunderstanding the significance of the Lord supper (that is a poor/bad teacher), this is outright antagonism to the works of God. You cannot admonish a Brother (one born of the Spirit), no matter how immature they are using these words. This does not mean that you cannot admonish him, but the approach is altogether different. Are we in agreement so far before I proceed t my next point?James

Hey guys, I hope I'm not intruding here. I am interested in this new point. To accuse one of being a false prophet is a very serious accusation and should not be made lightly dear saints. A false prophet is not chosen by God, but by Satan...You may believe that if a prophet is not mature that of necessity makes him a “false prophet”. The flip-side of this discussion: the credentials of a false prophet. I appreciate the clean divsion between immature and false that is being attempted here. I agree with Jimm in wanting to protect well-meaning brothers and sisters with prophetic gifts from witch hunts. However, I have had the awful experience of being influenced by prophets who do not speak truth and it did not matter who sent them. The problem is that they believed their own lies. The force of their conviction can become the power of their pursuasion! From my experience, a prophetic person can be unaware that their ambitions are not Christ-centered and that their doctrines are heretical. This certainly does not make then the spawn of Satan in my mind...just zealous saints with gifts that needed correction and discipline when instead they recieved flattery and reward. Yet, the difference between "false" and "immature" may be of little consequence to the saints who are affected. Jer. 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath My word; let him speak My word faithfully.It is my opinion that a prophet,(like all vessels being shaped by the Master Potter), requires sound scriptural knowledge. True prophectic words are built upon the Word. I believe a prophet should commit themselves to the whole counsel of God, not just their "beef". Like King Jimmy pointed out, "establishing" Christ is the reason for the gifts and nothing does this better then the Holy Spirit inspired biblical prophets and Apostles which are the foundations of the Church. In my personal experience I have known many who are sincerely prophecying "according to the spirit" yet doing so in ignorance, and conflict, of what the Spirit has already given us in writing.So I guess my question is this; who needs false prophets when immature prophets will speak quite zealously without knowledge in the Church? Having said that, I like James' last point.This does not mean that you cannot admonish him, but the approach is altogether different.MC

I think it is hard for you to really understand what I am saying because you have such powerful minds! Oh my!, so that's what's trying to kill me!! Ack! Get it away!, get it away!, get it off of me!!! :-P :-P :-P Whew...Oh that was funny! ..whew..thanks brother I needed that, seriously...Sometimes it seems we need this kind of thing otherwise we might implode or burst into flames...Not to make too much light of it... but still...I have to go outside now, before anybody see's this... :-P Promise I'll come back once I get my bearings again...whew...

Hey guysThank you all for your posts Brothers, I will try and address as many concerns as I can. From my experience, a prophetic person can be unaware that their ambitions are not Christ-centered and that their doctrines are heretical. This certainly does not make then the spawn of Satan in my mind...just zealous saints with gifts that needed correction and discipline when instead they recieved flattery and reward. Yet, the difference between "false" and "immature" may be of little consequence to the saints who are affected. Can you give us a biblical incedent where a prophet had to mature? Lahry said: I mean, don't they speak under divine inspiration?Now we are getting somewhere here. Let us consider the Church of Corinth. What do you suppose the problem was with the church that was so clearly gifted? Consider this account:1 Corinthians 14:26-33 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.Where these saints not inspired by the same Spirit? How is it then that even their “prophets” needed instruction on when and how to speak? All of these saints were immature (babes in Christ) and carnal. They definitely had the Spirit abiding in them but, their very mind set and way of thinking was a hindrance. Their very understanding of spiritual things was still in a child like state.1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?1 Corinthians 14: Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.A prophet is a fellow saint dear brethren, and he must grow in Christ just as everyone else. The prophet is likely to have an easier time maturing because of necessity a prophet my must have a high level of faith (Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Romans 12:6). Even that faith is not of themselves, as if it was a credential by which the where selected. (Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God).The way for a prophet (and indeed all saints) to mature is by revelation, a revelation of Jesus Christ. This is not necessarily a verbal revelation (something you read or hear) it is an inward working of the Spirit of God, an opening of the eyes of the heart. Paul tells us, “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” And, “How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,” (Gal1:12&Eph3:3) Understanding this thoroughly he prays for the Ephesians saying, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:” (Eph1:17). The only prophet that is of any help to the church is not only he who is accurate but he that has matured, so that there are no carnal ideas mixed in with the inspiration from God. The Church today needs to here prophesies that are not only accurate but that from saints whose character we know. The modern Church setting does not allow for such an intimate knowledge, and the average person can be civil for the duration the meeting, but this does not tell us about Hid character. When we are in really close fellowship the nature of a person cannot help but to be manifest. Art Katz once said, “So we need to be the quality of relationship by which we know one another’s character and we are not just strangers lost in the obscurity of services”.There are more points to address, but for the sake of time I will pause here for now. Does this help any?James

No not that Calvin.Was having a little Calvin and Hobbes moment there earlier... every once in awhile something just strikes you as incredibly funny.Didn't mean anything other than I found it quite absurd to hear that and that is not at your expense brother, just that it sounded so odd to these ears, my mind is often such a jumble of things that I have long ago stopped putting much heed in it nor trust in the thoughts it can generate, that's a bit of a stretch, but still the dependence comes from elsewhere. Also, after events that transpired earlier this morning that found me just overwhelmed by a dear saint half way across the world and almost oddly...it was something that could be construed as practically'prophetic'. To be able to spiritually discern so much, too feel the prayers and the grasp of discernment, the reality of it all...It will be many days of pondering these things in the heart, it left me overwhelmed and actually in a profound sense of Godly fear that is hard to express...Maybe someday will be able to articulate it enough to be worthy of repeating. So it has been an very unusual day and was at work when the laughter started welling up, meant nothing by it and was actually truly relieved of just...something that needed to be relieved. I am weird dude, what can I say...With all this, still, something seems off. Think both Lahry and MC touched on the edges of it. May be askance here and realize that the tendencies are that these discussions grow tentacles and branch off to different areas as the give and take changes hands...But the original question here regarding credentials was thought to be something 'after' the fact, 'proof's' of, if you will. It sounds a bit odd to hear of a kind of training school for prophets, but that may be only in the idea that it is something you can acquire or 'gain' by putting yourself through such a thing. It also has the problematic attachment to what is being seen in our day in such odd measure, that this is something you can 'become' by effort. Sure it's usually not couched in those types of words, but it does seem to lend itself to this, however subtle.Maybe the best way to put it is that this seems to be just overstated on the one hand and understated on the other. Overstated in what a prophet is and understated in what might come forth out of that, the definitions still are unclear. A large body of these things seems to be neither prophet nor prophetic, just what used to be normal Christianity. Being that in our day it has flown so far from it's moorings, to find trace elements of it now has that compulsion to catch it and label it and make it something more and different form the original reality and intent. Problem is, I don't know for sure just what that "is",...."is".If there is anything we are tremendously successful at it is in redefining definitions to our present states, cultures and what have you and it makes it that much more difficult to untangle from the web and get back to original intent and true meaning. I don't know if this just waxing eloquent here, but something just doesn't jive.Just random musings here meant to go towards no one in particular and just as much out on different limbs, feeling around for substance.For the area of the false prophet and that in general sense it does seem that a higher view of God a more truer understanding of just who it is we have to do with and He with us. That though we are beckoned to boldly come to the throne of grace at the same time there is still the sense of with trembling and fear and the latter is wanning otherwise it would certainly stop the mouths of the many out there making absurd statements or flippant things casually and without much thought from escaping the lips. To pronounce something as terrifying as a "Thus sayeth the Lord" with such disregard... Think it is more amazing that not only the Lord permits it but that one can do so without a hint of conscious pang...It just doesn't add up and it has been something in my experience that has made me want to vomit to hear flat out untruths spoken as truth, with an audacity and incredible sickening pride for that is what it is. To watch and hear these charlatans make pronouncements of healing, of the Holy Spirit being at their beck and call, of things that will happen and knowing that there is no truth in it from the first syllable. I don't know that it takes a special discernment to see through these things, it is just a byproduct of all that has come before it. Poor teaching, poor, twisted reading into the scriptures things that have no place, being rich, materialism, self help, entertainment, the godliness is gain, all so backwards and not Christian being contorted to be made chummy with the world... What is to be expected of the followers of this to hear some 'prophet' come into their midst and tickle their ears, it is but the desert for the dinners they have been feeding on. So do we pity the maturing 'prophet' when he ought to be silent? Not be concerned for the sheep that are led astray? Some of us were these sheep, I was, caught up in so much of this nonsense.This is not pointed here as this is an area that is somewhat off the side of the intents of someone like James. But the point to drive home is that maybe what a prophet ought to be in our day is someone who will drag the hearts of professing Christians back down the road and teach them what is true of this life of faith in the Son of God... But I am doing the same thing here by making my own definition, good intents or not. Maybe it's just me, so many once sacred words have lost their meanings that to hear them now brings along all the associated baggage, "anointing", "sanctified", "prophets", "prophetic", "prophecy"... I don't want a definition that suits me, or I cook up, but a definition that is, in it's fullest measure.Now if we could just find out what that is.

Jimm wrote:Upon reflection we actually agree more than we disagree but tragically I think it is hard for you to really understand what I am saying because you have such powerful minds! I must be exceedingly accurate with you gentlemen because a little generalization on my part can throw off the whole topic. I have read and re-read what you have written and I believe I understand what you are saying.I could say the same to you brother. You quoted Art Katz in this post, and I know few people with more powerfull minds, than him, in the kingdom of God.As with any calling there is an induction stage before you finally reach your stride in Christ. Sadly some prophets do not make it out of this induction stage, but this does not (according to my judgment) disqualify them from being what they have been called to be.I would beg to differ on this point. Ephesians say, "God gave some to be..." implying that the people (don't forget "five-folds" are people, not jobs) could be Apostles, Prophets, etc if... but they aren't yet, because they are "to be..." You seem to be saying that "they are, but their not perfect". I agre with the latter part of the statment, but not the former.Let me illustrate this point with a simplified example. Say you are hired to be a hospital porter.Let's say that you hire a doctor, who isn't "mature enough" in their calling. If he were to hurt someone in "his ministry", then he'd be sued and so would the hospital. In this case, credentials are required before service, not on the fly. Again, we are not talking of regular lay ministers, we are discussing Prophets. Men like Katz, claim to be "lay people like yourself", although we accept them as prophets. One common theme amongst false prophets, is that they "say they are but are not" (see Jesus' exhortaion to the church of Ephuses, in Revelation.)The Lord has reserved a day in the which all the secretes of men will be revealed and judged and everyone will have to give an account of their stewardship. Indeed, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Mathew 7:22)You may believe that if a prophet does not mature that of necessity makes him a “false prophet”.Ironically, Mat 7:22, is a denunciation of false prophets, by Jesus Himself, who refers to them as "ravenous wolves". To relate this into real terms, consider instead of being a "false prophet" the person coming into the church is a "false lover of children (aka. peadaphile). Would you apply the same kind of logic, in spite of their displaying clear signs of an unhealthy affection toward children? Of course not. Though you would be cautious to wait for "obvious signs", youwould be diligent in investigating the suspect, until you were satisfied. How much more careful should we be about spiritual children?I see the logic behind your statement but it is only a skin deep assessment, one that judges according to the wisdom of men and not of God.Again, Moses, John, Paul, and Jesus Himself gave clear meathods of investigating false prophets. These are the standards used, not "wisdom of men".For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again Matt 7:2).I live by this truth, brother. Will discuss later.Note that these poor teachers are still in fact “in the kingdom of heaven”.The issue isn't one of condemning a person, but that of protecting people from their message.

Hey guys.I think we are getting closer and closer to seeing each other face to face. Christian maturity does not come over night dear saints, but gifts generally do. Please take a moment to understand what I am saying, when I speak of prophesy. Prophesy proceeds forth out of divine inspiration and is not an observation or an exposition, but when the Spirit of the Lord gives you each word that you speak whilst you are in the Spirit this is prophesying. If I prophesy this morning while I am by myself in prayer, then I later go and tell my brother in exact detail the words of the prophesy, even if it is word for word, that is no longer prophesy, simply because my words are no longer divinely inspired. I am now using the function of my memory or, if the Lord is gracious my wisdom and knowledge (spiritual gifts) have been increased and I am now speaking using these gifts not the gift of prophesy. A prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God (whether it be from the flesh or the Devil) this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it doe not proceed from the Spirit of truth. Whether a man can prophesy or not is not necessarily a reflection of His spiritual maturity (note again the prophets at Corinth). I am not saying that immature prophets are the sum of all things and should not be touched, but I am saying that the fact that they have not grown does not change what they are. Paul still referred to the carnal prophets at Corinth as prophets. A prophet is just like any other Christian, he can be carnal or he can be Spirit lead. If he is carnal he needs the support prayer and fellowship from the body of Christ, he is not dismissed altogether however he is monitored more strictly by the mature ones and those with the gift of discernment. And he (after my judgment) should not prophesy as regularly in the whole congregation, but rather more so in the presence of the elders. Do you follow me?James

James,Just curious. Do you believe youself to be one who has been called to be a Prophet (as in "five fold ministry" in Ephesians), or are you one who has the gift of prophecy (As in 1 Cor 12-14)?My reason for this question, is that we seem to be each discussing different themes.Personally, my interpretaion of "Prophetic Credentials....." (in light of discussion of "Apostolic Credentials.....") to be on the "office of the prophet" (as much as that term chokes in my throat) vs the person who as a prophetic inclination. As I have repeatedly mentioned, Ephesians mentions God giving "some to be..prophets..". The "some" are "people", not giftings. 1 Corinthians mentions the "gift of prophecy" meaning an "ability" (for want of a better term).Vines says:Prophecypropheteiasignifies "the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God" (pro, "forth," phemi, "to speak:" see PROPHET); in the NT it is used (a) of the gift, e.g., Rom_12:6; 1Co_12:10; 1Co_13:2; (b) either of the exercise of the gift or of that which is "prophesied," e.g., Mat_13:14; 1Co_13:8; 1Co_14:6, 1Co_14:22; 1Th_5:20, "prophesying (s);" 1Ti_1:18; 1Ti_4:14; 2Pe_1:20-21; Rev_1:3; Rev_11:6; Rev_19:10; Rev_22:7, Rev_22:10, Rev_22:18-19. "Though much of OT prophecy was purely predictive, see Mic_5:2, e.g., and cp. Joh_11:51, prophecy is not necessarily, nor even primarily, fore-telling. It is the declaration of that which cannot be known by natural means, Mat_26:68, it is the forth-telling of the will of God, whether with reference to the past, the present, or the future, see Gen_20:7; Deu_18:18; Rev_10:11; Rev_11:3. Prophetprophetes"one who speaks forth or openly" (see PROPHECY, A), "a proclaimer of a divine message," denoted among the Greeks an interpreter of the oracles of the gods. In the Sept. it is the translation of the word roeh, "a seer;" 1Sa_9:9, indicating that the "prophet" was one who had immediate intercourse with God. It also translates the word nabhi, meaning "either one in whom the message from God springs forth" or "one to whom anything is secretly communicated." Hence, in general, "the prophet" was one upon whom the Spirit of God rested, Num_11:17-29, one, to whom and through whom God speaks, Num_12:2; Amo_3:7-8. In the case of the OT prophets their messages were very largely the proclamation of the Divine purposes of salvation and glory to be accomplished in the future; the "prophesying" of the NT "prophets" was both a preaching of the Divine counsels of grace already accomplished and the foretelling of the purposes of God in the future.

Jimm wrote:The only prophet that is of any help to the church is not only he who is accurate but he that has matured, so that there are no carnal ideas mixed in with the inspiration from God. The Church today needs to here prophesies that are not only accurate but that from saints whose character we know. The modern Church setting does not allow for such an intimate knowledge, and the average person can be civil for the duration the meeting, but this does not tell us about Hid character. When we are in really close fellowship the nature of a person cannot help but to be manifest. Art Katz once said, “So we need to be the quality of relationship by which we know one another’s character and we are not just strangers lost in the obscurity of services”.At his Melbourne School, Katz covered the issue of "divorcing power from character" (based on the translation of the word "dunamis" as "virtue" in the KJV). Although he admited to the possibility of this being an Elizabethian translation error, the term "virtue went out from me" seems to imply a connection between power and character, raising the question "If virtue left Him, how did it go into Him?" The sermon began with, "I'd like disabuse you, and the church, of any romantic notion that Jesus had an advantage over us, by virtue of His diety.", which would explain the previous statement, somewhat.Please also consider, that he made direct statments, regarding Rick Joyner (criticising "The Final Quest" from arrogantly claiming the errors of Apostle Paul) and Paul Cain, being questionable, if not false. Although the names were not directly mentioned (apart from his handlng a recording of his preaching on repentance to Joyner, saying "I hope he receives the revelation from it" - paraphrase).A large section of the church today seems to be trying to lower the standard of integrity in ministry. Perhaps there is a fear that unless they do, their will be no one for the job? Regardless of the rationale, this is COMPROMISE. To quote David Wilkerson, "A man with sin in his life, will not talk about sin in the camp." We seem to have a mentality of, "Ohh...c'mon. Being in ministry isn't that bad. How about if we give you a big paycheck?" (granted, this is extreme, but I recently heard someone come one heartbeat away from saying this, from the pulpit).*Edit*I have recently pondered the event of the Magic (Astrologers) finding Jesus by reading the stars. Could it be, that God allowed this part of the Nativity narrative, to warn us about the issue the deceptiveness of accurate prophecy? I believe that here lies another Divine paradox: Accuracy is a requirement, but not a means of validation.*Edit*At the end of the day, decption that is subtle, is the most dangerous deception of all, as it is the most convincing. I'll repeat again, "By their fruit you will know them".(I hope you don't think I'm targeting you, James. Perhaps part of me is hoping to stretch your sence of orthodoxy, as happend to Asaph in Psalm 73)*Edit* Actually, my last comment isn;t entirely ture. If i'm honest, there have been some comments that you have made that have concerned me, James. Please hear this in love, as there are some things that you have stated that are actually, contrary to scripture. *Edit*

If I prophesy this morning while I am by myself in prayer, then I later go and tell my brother in exact detail the words of the prophesy, even if it is word for word, that is no longer prophesy, simply because my words are no longer divinely inspired. I am now using the function of my memory or, if the Lord is gracious my wisdom and knowledge (spiritual gifts) have been increased and I am now speaking using these gifts not the gift of prophesy. Pretty well have given up on the idea of extracting out of all this because there does seem to be something still to get worked out of it all.Not sure that 'works' there brother. If 'in the morning you are "prophecing"... to whom? If there are no hearers, then what is it that construes it as 'prophecy'? It may be communication in prayer with the Lord...not following here.then I later go and tell my brother in exact detail the words of the prophesyPardon the cutting apart here, but does this not within lie the danger of it all?On the one hand if you are not able to 'ponder these things in the heart' before hand, how can you ascertain whether or not that..1) It should be said in the first place.1) Is truly from the Lord.2) What the ramifications are from what might be said, not so much in a paranoid fashion, but have you considered everything? Are you sure of it?The opposite also being true and what seems to flow so easily from many a lip in our day. The 'first thing that comes to mind' syndrome. In essence "I will speak and because I am a 'prophet', the Lord will straighten out whatever mess I create, it's not really my problem how it sounds, or even what it means, for I am a 'prophet'"...Do you see the problem here with this?This is not an accusing finger here...A 'prophet is...A 'prophet is...Still am stuck with the sounding difference between hearing a Tozer say "I am a prophet" and what flows out of that (further back in this thread) and the way it sounds as it is construed by many in our day and even as it is being defined here. Am asking questions more so than making 'statements'.It's as if we are talking almost in categories or 'kinds'.Unless I am mistaken Paul was not 'called' a 'prophet' was he? And yet he did 'prophecy' not in things to come, perhaps in an ultimate end way, but as to things that were, that are.Or John...Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. But was he known as a 'prophet'?Again the squirmy feeling is in what seems to be an overstating of just what a 'prophet' is.There seems to be a great gulf between;Joh 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? AndJam 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a town, stay there a year, conduct business, and make money." Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. Perhaps now I am overstating it, just trying to draw in the whole from the parts.One more for reflection:1Sa 3:3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of the LORD, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to sleep; 1Sa 3:4 That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I. 1Sa 3:5 And he ran unto Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou calledst me. And he said, I called not; lie down again. And he went and lay down. 1Sa 3:6 And the LORD called yet again, Samuel. And Samuel arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And he answered, I called not, my son; lie down again. 1Sa 3:7 Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him. 1Sa 3:8 And the LORD called Samuel again the third time. And he arose and went to Eli, and said, Here am I; for thou didst call me. And Eli perceived that the LORD had called the child. 1Sa 3:9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place. 1Sa 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth. 1Sa 3:11 And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.

A large section of the church today seems to be trying to lower the standard of integrity in ministry.There's a power packed statement...

Not sure that 'works' there brother. If 'in the morning you are "prophecing"... to whom? If there are no hearers, then what is it that construes it as 'prophecy'? It may be communication in prayer with the Lord...not following here.Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person. Prophecy reveals God's wisdom to all creation so it may be prophecying to various prinicipalities and powers or other players in the spirit realm. 1) It should be said in the first place.Is truly from the Lord.2) What the ramifications are from what might be said, not so much in a paranoid fashion, but have you considered everything? Are you sure of it?If the Lord gives the spirit unction then the spirit will speak. If it is from the Lord or not, well, there have yet to be any thunderings and lightnings to prove that the words are indeed from Him, it is more a matter of faith and excercising that faith that God has indeed placed these things on your spirit. That's kinda like asking, how do yopu know when you are in love.You can't really explain it, you just know. After a while one must trust the Lord completely concerning this gift. There is really no reason to be concerned about the ramifications of what is said, if God put it on you in spirit, the concern should be more about what if I DON'T speak what He puts on my spirit.With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked and therein is the stumbling block for many saints.

IRONMAN wrote:Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person. Can someone be classed as a prophet if knowone hears him? Who bears witness to someones claim that they are a 'prophet' or a whatever? Sure God does, but within the church, how does it happen?

Man this thread is really rolling! ... :-P Brother Aaron wrote:"A large section of the church today seems to be trying to lower the standard of integrity in ministry. Perhaps there is a fear that unless they do, their will be no one for the job? Regardless of the rationale, this is COMPROMISE". Amen ... that's exactly what brother Guinness says in his book "Prophetic Untimeliness" ... You might find this interesting ...How The Church Has Lost It’s Savor …https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5563&forum=35

Prophecy is not necessarily always heard by another person. Prophecy reveals God's wisdom to all creation so it may be prophecying to various prinicipalities and powers or other players in the spirit realm. Where do you find that in scripture?If the Lord gives the spirit unction then the spirit will speak. If it is from the Lord or not, well, there have yet to be any thunderings and lightnings to prove that the words are indeed from Him, None are needed, only that they are true and come to pass.it is more a matter of faith and excercising that faith that God has indeed placed these things on your spirit. That's kinda like asking, how do yopu know when you are in love.You can't really explain it, you just know. After a while one must trust the Lord completely concerning this gift. Fair enough, if you keep it to yourself... There is really no reason to be concerned about the ramifications of what is said, if God put it on you in spirit, the concern should be more about what if I DON'T speak what He puts on my spirit.With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked and therein is the stumbling block for many saints. O contre! You best be concerned, even if the Lord put's something in your spirit at what point did we ever get the idea to relagate our God given brains to the trash pile? Not to supercede the Spirit, that is often our biggest struggle, but no, this is precisely the problem, that it get's turned around by those that want to claim this gift as their own and when questioned on it, it becomes a 'stumbling block'. What do you do with 'the prophets are subject to the prophets' then?With this gift and all the other ones that come from God, he requires us to be like children, to just trust Him, no questions asked I don't recall this being refered to in the area of gift's, thought this had to do with entering the kingdom of heaven....This is dangerous reasoning and what is seen so much in our day, a re-catagorizing and reading into the scriptures what we want it to say.Think Aaron's bringing forth some definitions is helpful here, if we were to give them some attention.

So do you think we should stone and kill every prophet who makes an error in the declarations of God? May that wouldn't be a bad idea :-P :-P :-P just joking, somewhat.

One more thought--- according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error. Maybe that would be better. ;-)

Hey guysWait a minute fellas!:-) Please note, I did not say I did not care what the prophet was. At this point I cannot help wondering if you are really reading what I am saying: Whether a man can prophesy or not is not necessarily a reflection of His spiritual maturity (note again the prophets at Corinth). I am not saying that immature prophets are the sum of all things and should not be touched, but I am saying that the fact that they have not grown does not change what they are. Paul still referred to the carnal prophets at Corinth as prophets. A prophet is just like any other Christian, he can be carnal or he can be Spirit lead. If he is carnal he needs the support prayer and fellowship from the body of Christ, he is not dismissed altogether however he is monitored more strictly by the mature ones and those with the gift of discernment. And he (after my judgment) should not prophesy as regularly in the whole congregation, but rather more so in the presence of the elders. Do you follow me? A prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God (whether it be from the flesh or the Devil) this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it doe not proceed from the Spirit of truth.Before we get into the whole prophesy vs prophet discussion can we first agree on what prophesy is. Again let me say plainly, prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. And while we are at it, prophesy is not necessarily predicting the future, in fact more often prophesy is not that, rather it is a proclamation of part of the counsel of God via His own Spirit. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it does not proceed from the Spirit of truth. In this respect John is very helpful with the following statement:1 John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.That seems pretty plain to me and so an exposition on that would be rather facetious on my part. “Trying the spirits” is not necessarily a mental inquiry (although that is important). I always believed that this was way too simple a test, but as I began to apprehend the extent of evil of these spirits I started to understand that it was actually impossible for them to confess the Lord Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.If I do not have a word form the Lord I cannot simply begin to prophesy on any subject I wish, it must come from His Spirit otherwise it is not prophesy. Just as every word you speak when you speak in tongues is not your own, every word of prophesy is also not your own. As a prophet I may learn many things from prophesy, and acquire wisdom, if I speak based on this wisdom this becomes preaching or teaching and not prophesying. Prophesying is prophesying. If it is not directly Spirit lead and inspired it is simply not prophesy. True prophesy must proceed from the Spirit of truth, this is way beyond the simplicity of accuracy, this is a question of the source. Have I been baptized with the Spirit or haven’t I? Do I have the gift of prophesy or do I not have it? This is an either or question, if you can prophesy and you have received the Spirit, you know about it. (Yes some people are mistaken, but again, I cannot speak for every individual who thinks they are a prophet). It is a simple question of whether I have this administration or not, just as there can be no question, I cannot work miracles, I do not have the gift of “miracle working”. If I suddenly begin to work miracles there is a clear demarcation from when I did and when I did not. I do not just gradually begin to believe I can work miracles, it is either I can or I cannot. In the same sense I (please not I said I, not Benny Hinn and every other person under the sun) do no just one day decide to myself, “I think I will prophesy now”. It is a gift of the Spirit, you can just tell that these words are not your own. I can pray and be lead by the Spirit in prayer, but prophesy is altogether different. Prophesy is just that, prophesy, just as speaking in tongues is speaking in tongues and I am either doing that or I am not. The definition for prophesying is not as broad as some have made it. The definition of a prophet actually should be pretty simple but I believe that at this point there is a myriad of questions and so I will stop here.James

dohzman wrote:One more thought--- according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error. Maybe that would be better. ;-) Beautiful. I was going to state the same thing, only in alot more words (Mike, take note of this;-)). Katz has made references to the idea of every prophet that comes after Moses (bearing in mind that only Jesus is the "prophet like unto Moses"), drew upon the teaching of Moses, or one who came after him, for his declarations. The idea being, one of an interpretation of "cause and effect" of divine prinbciples (which are not there as a list of "do's and don'ts", but to display the potential consequences of disobedience, apart form God's mercy), particularly those found in the book of Deuteronomy. For those who think that I'm being legalistic, don't forget that Paul's wonderfull defintion of the difference between the "righteousness from the Law" and the "righteous of Faith", in Romanas 10, finds every scriptural reference in this book.We cannot, I repeat cannot assume to be of greater authority and inspiration, than Moses, who received his revelation "face to face with God". Yes, we are greater than he (and every other prophet, before John the Baptist), but only as a result of the legacy that they left us. Anything else is to open oneself up to deceiving spirits.I reiterate my earlier statement: Deception that is subtle, in nature, is the most dangeous of all, because it is the most convincing. Don't forget brethren, then serpent use factual statements in the garden, to deceive Eve (ponder on that thought).I'm yet to read on person bring up a scriptural arguement to refute any of my statements, although they are being contradicted by the human experience, of the posters. Brethren, I assure you, that I have human experience to back up my claims, however I don't need to bring them up, because scripture is enough. Moses (and Jesus) said that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses, a thing is established." Whether it's the OT and NT, Law and the Prophets, Jesus and Moses, Paul and Moses, or even Mike and Daryl;-), however you interperate that statement, the physical evidence alone, requires me not to testify (although, I have already done that, in part).Please forgive me, if I have offended (because I have offended myself). I have been fighting the appearance of arrogance, in my posts, however, this is becoming harder and harder as time goes on. Perhaps, it's time to shake the dust of my feet in this thread, before I cross any lines (if I haven't already:cry:).

Jimm wrote:Again let me say plainly, prophesy is either from the Spirit of God or it is not. And while we are at it, prophesy is not necessarily predicting the future, in fact more often prophesy is not that, rather it is a proclamation of part of the counsel of God via His own Spirit. If a prophesy is not from the Spirit of God this is what is known as a ‘false prophesy’ because it does not proceed from the Spirit of truth. In this respect John is very helpful with the following statement:1 John 4:1-3 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.v5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. v6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. True prophesy must proceed from the Spirit of truth, this is way beyond the simplicity of accuracy, this is a question of the source. Have I been baptized with the Spirit or haven’t I? Do I have the gift of prophesy or do I not have it? This is an either or question, if you can prophesy and you have received the Spirit, you know about it. (Yes some people are mistaken, but again, I cannot speak for every individual who thinks they are a prophet). This gets to the crux of what I am trying to say, James. Too many people take it for granted that they are baptised in the Spirit, and many base this on the presence of the gift of tongues (by the way, I speak in tongues). It don't know if you have watched to the Leonard Ravenhill interview, but may I direct your attention to his comments regarding Jimmy Swaggart, and Mormons speaking in tongues (will ned to have seen it, to make sence of this). Please don't think I'm trying to assert that you don't have the Holy Ghost, only that I discovered that I'd been deceived into thinking that I was, was nearly 10 years. As someone once said to me, "Once you've tasted honey, you'll never go back to treacle again." All I ask, is that you prayerfully consider whether you have or not. Jesus assured us that those who ask, receive, but didn't definite the the duration of waiting. Perhaps you are a called to be a prophet (not claiming you are, or aren't), what if God is leading you through deception, so as to give you first hand knowledge of it? After all, Moses had to dwell in Egypt, and Midian before being usefull to God.I understand that their are plenty of valid statements that you have made, but one erroneous statement will defile an entire arguement. this is what makes men like Katz stand apart. The ability to distinguish between his own, and Devine knowledge, and to leave the former out of the pulpit, unless being used to illustrate falibility. And brother, life is a pulpit for those who are truely called of God.May I recommend The Spirit of Truth vs the Spirit of Error by J. Jacob Prasch, for your consideration? I warn you, this is likely to offend you, but I ask if you are truely willing to endure prophetic reproach, in the name of pursuing truth? I believe that you are, otherwise I wouldn't have taken the time to respond to any of your statements.Bless you brother, this will be my last post in this thread. If you have any question, objections, etc that you want to raise with me, please feel free to PM me. :-)

You know of course that Jesus quoted the book Of Deuter-Second-nomous Law more than any other book of the OT.

AaronYou have not offended me Aaron, but may I ask you. Do you know what "prophesying" is? I hope I have not offended you by asking, but I am a little puzzled by some of your statements.By the way...I think I have listened to just about all of Art Katz's sermons, and some new ones from different websites. He is very good. I have also listened to all of Ravenhill's sermons, and many many others from this site, and other sites. What have I said that is not scriptural?There are many thousands of prophets in the old testament of whom we know nothing except that “the prophesied”. I am pressed for time, but tomorrow I will give you more scriptures for your consideration, for I had taken for granted that you already knew this, but from the evidence I am not quite convinced anymore. What is your take on the prophesying (not only of Saul but of the company of prophets) in the following:1 Samuel0:5-10 "After that you will come to the Hill of God where there are Philistine garrisons. When you arrive at the city, you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place prophesying. They will be preceded by harps, tambourines, flutes, and lyres. The Spirit of the Lord will control you, you will prophesy with them, and you will be transformed into a different person. When these signs have happened to you, do whatever your circumstances require because God is with you. Afterwards, go ahead of me to Gilgal. I will come to you to offer burnt offerings and to sacrifice fellowship offerings. Wait seven days until I come to you and show you what to do." When Saul turned around to leave Samuel, God changed his heart, and all the signs came about that day. When Saul and his attendant arrived at Gibeah, a group of prophets met him. Then the Spirit of God took control of him, and he prophesied along with them.1 Samuel 19:18-24 18 So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?Now I am not suggesting that when I am prophesying I am compelled to take of all my clothes and prophesy all day and all night, the point of these passages is to get you to ask yourself, what do you suppose these men were prophesying about? I say this only because the majority of thought on what a prophet is influenced by an elite minority (major and minor prophets) of prophets (I say “minority” because there were literally thousands of other prophets of which we know nothing, I will endeavor to post the accounts of them tomorrow), and no doubt that God can raise up men like that even today but, consider careful for a moment. Are the prophets addressed by Paul in Corinth of like the Elijahs and Jeremiahs or were they men who possessed the gift of prophesy? Okay one last quote on illustrating the range of prophesy, just for your consideration, to get your mind off thinking of prophesy as only predicting the future consider please the prophecies of Mary, Elizabeth and Zechariah.Luke1:39-56 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.Luke1:67-80 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by he remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.James

I don't see this as beating up the 'prophets' as much as testing them and a grand testing it is. Actually it is rather tremendous how well this discussion has been going thus far, have seen far more divisiveness of more topical things and this, though having some battle array to it and some stubbornness to move from fixed positions from the 'prophets' side of things... :-P Just a little levity there lest we think too highly of ourselves, more than we ought...is helpful I hope to all that are in it as well as the more saner that may be observing from a safer distance.So to jump back into the mud and hopefully Aaron won't be to far behind, he is on my side here :-P (Just some carry over Calvin and Hobbes residue)..maybe it is needed here a bit. Not to lessen anything but to bring something else to bear on all this. We are not disembodied spirits roaming the corridors of Heaven just yet and something of a personal trouble that surely we all struggle with in varying degrees is 'the real world'. What I mean is coming away from here and my tendencies especially in the morning is to be in prayer and reading scripture and bouncing in and out of this sanctuary amongst the saints and it is all just odd and strange and beautiful and depressing at times, wouldn't change it for the world. And there is no form or preset structure to it other than an inner compelling that I love, to know Gods thoughts after Him and to share it all here and glean so many, many things and to give it all back in whatever form it takes. It's a lot of prayer and a lot heart searching and a lot of challenges and a whole lot of thinking because that is where we process all the things that are going on within us. Not reason alone but as part and parcel to what we are. Whole being units. Not divisible parts. It is one of the sticking points of our brother Ron (Philologos) that bores out from the adamantly that he would by force press the issue in regards to our so called 'will'. There is just you! It's as if I can hear him just pleading it with us 'get this through your thick heads' (my words).Yes another short diatribe. But what I am trying to get at is that, I must rise from my face and go forth, out into the world of 'reality' and to pry back on that can of worms a bit, it is truly a lie 'real' as it is, meaning that it is made up of so much milling about, all striving after a profit to no end. But it's there and it's a demanding monster that we must, Pilgrims and strangers, peculiar 'other worldly' beings that we are, with an emphasis on peculiar...deal with.Thank God there is such a place as this to let out the spiritual steam that builds up within us.So what does any of this have to do with prophecy?Good question... It just seems that what is in part happening and needs to happen is to bring to bear down on all of this the whole counsel of God and that whole counsel comes forth from His word. And yes, it is precisely why so many of us hold to an inerrant and 'closed' cannon of scripture.We wrestle within it's pages and I dare say that there is by far more than enough there alone to deal with multiplied lifetimes and then we can turn to the book of Exodus after leaving Genesis. Progressing through will only find us back at the starting point somewhere along the line because there is just no end to it.All he could hope to do, Tozer said, was to place the right emphasis at the right time. If in his writings the reader should discover something new, he should reject it, for whatever in religion is new is by the same token false. The unconditioned priority of God in His universe, said Tozer, is a truth so necessary to right thinking about God and ourselves that it cannot be too strongly emphasized. it is a truth known to everyone, a kind of common property of all religious persons, but because so common it now has little meaning for any of us. It has suffered the fate of which Coleridge writes:'Truths, of all others the most awful and interesting, are too often considered as so true, that they lose all the power of truth, and lie bed-ridden in the dormitory of the soul, side by side with the most despised and exploded errors.' Fortunately we have amongst ourselves some here who have been mining the Scriptures for upwards of 20, 30 and 40 some odd years and they have yet to exhaust them. There opinions on matters I will gladly consider to be of more weight than any Johnny come lately 'prophet' that wants to start telling us all what grand revelations they have as a 'prophet' of the Lord. Please here what I am not saying nor accusing. We live our lives right now one breath at a time and we grow and learn and strive hard after the Lord to do His bidding (hopefully) because we love Him, after He first loved us. We must come to some kind of sanctified thought that our 'world' is much changed in appearance and form and function and is largely succeeding at cannibalizing itself. It is a different time and we have by and large lost our moorings, our roots and our history as to just what a Christian is and does and speaks. In it's place has come every doctrine of demons to rush in and fill it's place.To think that such a topic as 'prophecy' has little to do with this slide or has no ramifications is to dismiss out of hand much of the shenanigans going on in this modern day merging and submerging of what truth is in this life.And I am living in it's wake right now. I could not and would not pin it all to just one thing, but make no mistake that it is truly a huge problem. The replacement theology of 'What I think the Lord is telling me' is superseding the word spoken by the holy prophets and apostles. It is wrong thinking about God that is at the root of it, because it depends on what I think against what He said. By way of Jesus coming in the flesh and in effect not only proclaiming but being the Truth incarnate, the era of 'forth-telling' anything of significance is over. "I am the beginning and the end". Period. End of story. Thankfully....What need of 'new revelation' is there? There is only one blessed thing left in the course of human history to be finally accomplished and that is for the nations to be fully under His feet and He to rule and reign on the earth in all His glory forever and ever AMEN!So by virtue of all this it certainly seems to me by way of His first coming that the whole of what prophecy is and was meant by it changed from the days before Him manifested. What we can glean from the prophets of old and that which was prophesied in the New Covenant must be of a different manner, a study in contrasts.Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.Tired, will go away now and come back to see how much of this makes any sense.

Hey Mike, Aaron and DohzmanThanks for the light moment Brother Mike. Your caution is appreciated and your input is necessary for this discussion to continue dear Brothers. Is it safe to say that you do not believe that the gift of prophesy exists anymore? If that is what I am contending against then my whole precepts and approach has been wrong, for I had taken for granted that we all accepted that the gift of prophesy was still operational. Try not to think of prophesy as “new revelation”, as in, something about God that is totally alien to scriptures and has not be hereto foreknown. according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error.Now, I say this in earnest, I do not know whether I found that statement exasperating or amusing. Prophesy is not necessarily recitation of scripture…in fact do you know what guys, why don’t you tell me what you believe prophesying is. It may well be that we have put the label “prophesy” on two different things and thus we are not even talking about the same thing. James

Thank you Jimm, for putting up with this fool and the guttural, primative... upchucking. I do wonder at my own self sometimes.. just who is this dude? :-? Sometimes it just gets thrown out there so I can look at it and maybe someone else can see in it or through it and explain it all back to me, just at bottom trying to 'figure it out' myself. It does come back in a way to something I have learned here from everyone, that a lot of times our 'statements' are questions, or to put it the other way, not every question is a statement, a lot of the times they really are questions. A must needs reading between the lines.Is it safe to say that you do not believe that the gift of prophesy exists anymore? If that is what I am contending against then my whole precepts and approach has been wrong, for I had taken for granted that we all accepted that the gift of prophesy was still operational. Try not to think of prophesy as “new revelation”, as in, something about God that is totally alien to scriptures and has not be hereto foreknown. No, I do believe it exists, just not in the ...kind, the manner it is couched in terminology wise. That is the struggle here and the sense of forewarning. Maybe a twist on the original here, instead of ...'credentials','character'.And think that is what the intent of...according to the old jewish sages a true prophet could sit down and write the first 5 books from memory without error.... was meant, if there could be some reading between the lines.Certainly this is not all about... Try not to think of prophesy as “new revelation”, as in, something about God that is totally alien to scriptures and has not be hereto foreknown. that puts us back to the whole forthtelling and foretelling, but is it not a problem, in many areas of these so called 'prophetic' ministries? With all their imaginations gone unchecked? That having a 'confirmation' between two or three because it sounds good to the ears and may share similar likeness to 'thoughts' in the head doesn't make it prophetic as it presupposes against the idea that there is some kind of shared knowledge that the 'rest of us' don't get. That is more the makings of a cult than a prophetic utterance, especially if it is to be put out for public consumption. To think it is not to be challenged by other grounded and well worn saints, tested and tried to see if these things are so and not to take seriously the cautions, exhortations and even reproaches, casting it behind ones back or to make them all mere 'Pharisees' or 'quenchers of the Holy Spirit', 'touch not the Lords anointed' either expressly or subtley... Is to just not face things as they in fact are. Having said that in a broad kind of sense, take what you will from it. Certainly the opposite error can come into play, where the guard is so .... guarded, that everything gets chucked before it is heard, I realize that. But the innocent before proven guilty...well, not so sure about this in our day, when it comes to these things. Many false... prophets, teachers, dreamers,... the proud, haughty, careless, flippant, lovers of money, disobedient.... 2 Tim 3. It is a muddy generation we live in and from what I can ascertain of what I thought Christianity to be early on and the gut level ... dishonesty, that I knew was being suppressed in a 'going along with it' mentality, finally at some point broke and it was a must needed breaking off from it all. It was just plain bogus, an imitation, a fraud... How was it that Katz put it? "A half-truth is no truth at all"? 99 and 9/10th's pure is still not pure and 1/10th arsenic will kill it all.Haven't yet, but the link Aaron put up as a challenge to our thinking practically makes me salivate, I love it, I desire it... Test ALL things. I do take away from this all that is being said and do the best to test it, not to some cooked up formula or presupposition in my mind, but to what has been said already, in Gods word and that there is much, too much to grasp yet still. So why not lean on those who by long experience and lived out lives in this faith have shown by character, by heart and by love just what or make that WHO we are to deal with, as He deals with us. There is no doubt that a low view of God and a high view of the creature self is causing most if not all of the problems in our day, and surely that has always been our problem, hence the rebellion from the get go. But if it is not more glaringly obvious now than ever before...I think by and large that there is far too much accredited to this whole thing. That it is suspect right from the get go. The purposeful neglect of Christian history alone, the ease with which these things flow from the lips, the disregard and rush to make unfinished, untested musings 'prophetic' utterances ...'fact'. The audacity, where is the fear of God? There is a casualness that is disturbing. It is character and integrity that makes the man and we would be wise to stop up our ears at the first sign of variance from that, rather than let them be tickled by it.In two words:Prove it!P.S. however this sounds it is not 'directed' nor 'angry', it just seems to be of a serious nature, and the lightening up is for us as mere creatures taking ourselves too seriously, many are caught up in it and in the residue it has left behind, spreading to so many different areas ... That we all may be willing to be challenged in this, and test it, whether it be true or not.Edit:in fact do you know what guys, why don’t you tell me what you believe prophesying is. Telling the truth

Needed to finish a thought...I believe that there is without a doubt communication between ourselves and the Holy Spirit. There are things going on even right now in the spiritual realm that are both mysterious and puzzling to me. Attacks. Disruptions, things that would be of no benefit to anyone to start putting out there for public consumption and part of that is what I failed to bring up earlier.That many of these things that go on are of a private nature or at best it seems to be shared and dealt with by those close enough spiritually, that there is a certain trust in intimancy. Some of them ought not to go any further than between ourselves and the Lord and usually if we are quiet enough inwardly, prayerfully, we do indeed know it.

Fortunately we have amongst ourselves some here who have been mining the Scriptures for upwards of 20, 30 and 40 some odd years and they have yet to exhaust them. There opinions on matters I will gladly consider to be of more weight than any Johnny come lately 'prophet' that wants to start telling us all what grand revelations they have as a 'prophet' of the Lord. Please here what I am not saying nor accusing. We live our lives right now one breath at a time and we grow and learn and strive hard after the Lord to do His bidding (hopefully) because we love Him, after He first loved us. We must come to some kind of sanctified thought that our 'world' is much changed in appearance and form and function and is largely succeeding at cannibalizing itself. It is a different time and we have by and large lost our moorings, our roots and our history as to just what a Christian is and does and speaks. In it's place has come every doctrine of demons to rush in and fill it's place.Experience in searching scriptures is all good but it is no substitute for the spirit of GOd. one can search the scriptures for their whole life and gain nothing. I've seen many so called experts on the scriptures on t.v. etc mess things all up big time, spewing forth garbage and yet we persist in holding in high esteem their views? Take for example the gay Episcopalian bishop, how long has he been in the ministry?probably a lot longer than most of us have been alive and yet he thinks being gay is ok. What of some of the questionable televangelists, dare I say benny hinn who have been in the ministry for a long time and have searched the word too? How is it that if someone has been studying the word for many years noone even asks "are you filled with the spirit" or even gives a second thought to what they say but when someone says "ok I have been sent forth to prophecy" all hell breaks loose? Take for example bro Ron, I have only seen 1 discussion in which he has been taken to task for what he has said, propitiation and the red heiffer (by a guy called eric), it seems he doesn't have to justify much of what he says because he is an older saint but for those who are younger in the faith it is so much harder to get in a word edgewise. it's as if God can only speak through the older saints. Seems a little lop-sided, I could be wrong though.I'm not saying that all who say "I'm sent of God are" but certainly not all people who have searched scripture for 50 or even 100 yrs are sent of God either, I don't think anyone in their right mind would believe that. I'm not saying we should stop searching the scriptures but having searched the word for a long time does not necessarily equate to spiritual maturity. Being old does not always equate to being wise nor does being young mean foolishness nor spiritual immaturity. what of stephen who was among the first to me martyrd, he was young was he not? how much time did he has to study scripture before he died?probably not long if at all and yet God did big things with him. I think God uses a mix of old and young saints to do His will, we seem to esteem the older ones more though, sometimes rightly, sometimes not.Mike I know you are speaking of James and myself and perhaps a couple of others out there as "johnny come lately prophets" and that's cool, I would rather that you had just been open about it rather than attempt in vain to be "diplomatic". We're all brethren here and we should be open and honest I think we are all men and women here right?It's funny though but I don't recall mentioning anything specifically that God has revealed to me in the spirit as yet.however just the mention of my being called to be a prophet has caused a bit of a stirr here.This is not to say that all this is about me at all. I wonder how much more of a stirr mention of specific revelations would cause. *sigh*

Amazing! Mike nailed my statement and read my heart. In a sort of humorous way I was making a point, while not neglecting the old jewish ways. It would seem that in America and because of its influence in the world the church has gone to an extreme in the area of prophesy. Sure there are true prophets, sure people can be used in the gift of prophesy who are not nessarily prophets, or prophetesses. Fore telling? Agabus did, so I have to acknowledge the fact of its present reality. Mainly I see prophesy for encouragement and much more. But in these days I see a general departure of godly character amoung thoughs big name prophets especially. I think where the church is concerned we deal with eternal truths and eternal lives. The approach to both needs to be on bended knees with a great deal of humility and wisdom. I see many here on this site who approach the Word of God this way and I believe prophesy is of the same cloth. Acurracy! Sound doctrine ! Proper application. And proper judgeing of such. It takes godly character to have what you speak judged by 2 or 3 and accepted or dismissed, or placed on the shelf in waiting. Blessing In Christ Bro. Daryl

Ironman,What brought this all about in the begining of this post was a neccesity of defining, if the question is to be dealt with. "Credentials".Have mentioned it before but there is a tendencie to write with the general in mind not to dissuade or dodge the issue of specifics or make this a personal issue 'aimed' at anyone in particular. The reason being is that it's easy to forget that there is a whole, who knows how many out there peering in on these things. Not attempting to either dodge nor tar and feather, nor slight anyone or exalt one over another. Nor am I afraid of mere men or attempting to be merely diplomatic.Don't really even think those things, certainly we ought to be gracious with each other here but not to the point where the more troubling things don't get said. Surely we have seen the opposite of this kind of thing in times past. So don't read to much into this, you could just as easily read the "Johnny come lately bit" into the 'whole' of what is going on in our day and that was more of my thinking to begin with...But yes, think some of the definitions being bandied about are off (in my opinion) and that is what is being taken issue with and attempting to be clarified. If we make this a personal attack or a personal discussion then we ought not to be doing it in public view.Experience in searching scriptures is all good but it is no substitute for the spirit of GOd. one can search the scriptures for their whole life and gain nothing. I've seen many so called experts on the scriptures on t.v. etc mess things all up big time, spewing forth garbage and yet we persist in holding in high esteem their views?We do? What of some of the questionable televangelists, dare I say benny hinn who have been in the ministry for a long time and have searched the word too? How is it that if someone has been studying the word for many years noone even asks "are you filled with the spirit" or even gives a second thought to what they say but when someone says "ok I have been sent forth to prophecy" all hell breaks loose? That's rather odd, both. Take this with the intent meant, but are you reading any of the things being said here, seriously? This is much in every way where some of us have serious misgivings about all of this. Perhaps some backtracking here brother.Also think you are jumping the rails on this area of the elder saints in the Lord. We are not talking about age as a formula nor mere scholarship as an advantage in wisdom. Again, backtrack a bit to the issues of character, integrity and yes longevity, meaning they have been around this block brother and if we were wise we would listen to what they have to say to us. And certainly the emphasis was on here meaning this site. The ones that have been so gracious to share their wisdom gained from their lives being studied by the scriptures more than the other way around are not out to lord it over or be exalted, but to help. It is wisdom from the heart. We may not like it or take it the wrong way but if we are to be true to the high calling in Christ Jesus than by that we must be men and women of truth. That is the effort. That is what is seemingly being nit-picked at perhaps and this just as much so:It's funny though but I don't recall mentioning anything specifically that God has revealed to me in the spirit as yet.however just the mention of my being called to be a prophet has caused a bit of a stirr here.This is not to say that all this is about me at all. I wonder how much more of a stirr mention of specific revelations would cause. *sigh*Indeed if just the definitions are questionable.

It's funny though but I don't recall mentioning anything specifically that God has revealed to me in the spirit as yet.however just the mention of my being called to be a prophet has caused a bit of a stirr here.This is not to say that all this is about me at all. I wonder how much more of a stirr mention of specific revelations would cause. *sigh* If you recall there were some of us talking about what the Lord had given us pretaining the future of certain cities and this(america) country. I think where it comes to TV ministries I might have somewhat of an inside track. My neighbor(now 89) was the setup man for the Kulman/Humbard tent revival days and was part of the Humbard Ministries and saw the effects of TV on the men and women involved in that ministry. Our talks are very enlighting. So to use a TV prophet is, in my estimation, a very poor model of a christian anything. Now before you get mad at me, I do believe that God has his properly placed TV ministries, God always has a remnant in place. Also I don't believe any one of us singles out each other to throw stones at, but to keep on topic the bottom line came down to issues of character with in the calling of a prophet(generally speaking). Just think if the church was to operate the way it is suposed to a prophetic utterance might go something like this: "The lord says.................", then the attention turns to several others considered as prophets and after prayer, thought, possibly a searching out of scripture or even discussion on what was just brought forth. A public judgement on it is made. That judgement would be to recieve it---reject it---- or shelve it. Ouch* , now that would really hurt the ole' ego wouldn't it? Sure would take a humble man or woman to walk that road. Blessing Bro. Daryl

If you recall there were some of us talking about what the Lord had given us pretaining the future of certain cities and this(america) country. I think where it comes to TV ministries I might have somewhat of an inside track. My neighbor(now 89) was the setup man for the Kulman/Humbard tent revival days and was part of the Humbard Ministries and saw the effects of TV on the men and women involved in that ministry. Our talks are very enlighting. So to use a TV prophet is, in my estimation, a very poor model of a christian anything. Now before you get mad at me, I do believe that God has his properly placed TV ministries, God always has a remnant in place. Also I don't believe any one of us singles out each other to throw stones at, but to keep on topic the bottom line came down to issues of character with in the calling of a prophet(generally speaking). Just think if the church was to operate the way it is suposed to a prophetic utterance might go something like this: "The lord says.................", then the attention turns to several others considered as prophets and after prayer, thought, possibly a searching out of scripture or even discussion on what was just brought forth. A public judgement on it is made. That judgement would be to recieve it---reject it---- or shelve it. Ouch* , now that would really hurt the ole' ego wouldn't it? Sure would take a humble man or woman to walk that road. Blessing Bro. DarylI don't remember the discussion you are talking about bro dohzman.When I spoke of people who were experts supposedly who i've seen on t.v. it was in refernce to the reverence with which we tend to treat some of the things they say. Now sure why I would be mad at you though :-? I wish it would be so that a prophet would be able to say "thus saith the Lord" in church and people would simply listen *sigh* Whose ego would be hurt the prophets' or the churchs'?

I guess the fellowship I attend and most of the assemblies I go to, I see liberty in the expression of the Holy Spirit's giftings. I agree with much of what I see others, yurself included, write how ever I tend to look at the glasss half full in respects to the church. When I preach I have a hardline message on discipleship and the seperation from the ways of the world. But I stay positive in my outlook on the church , I do have my moments, but I trust the Lord. In my fellowship there's liberty with the vocal gifts just no real judging of them which can sometimes be more dangerous than not allowing the prophetic at all. So I guess I approach this subject a little differently since I watch the conduct of those being exercised in the giftings.

Hey guysI must be candid in my remarks, so please forgive any foolishness and presumptions that are not accurate, but I say this just so you know what I think…for the record. This remains a difficult topic. It may have been too ambitious of me to believe that what was lacking was simply information, but it far deeper than that, and I cannot convey that in writing. I suppose that I have expressed myself s best I could have in writing. It seems clear to me that people are either afraid to acknowledge what prophecy really is, or that they are misinformed. Prophesying is speaking out of divine inspiration from the Spirit of God and this is not necessarily interpretation of scripture. Preaching is a definite administration in the body of Christ, and an important one, but, prophesying is quite different to preaching. There is a distinction between the two, according to scriptures, and we cannot just say prophesying is preaching since we are more comfortable with the idea of preaching. Today God expresses Himself through many ministries and prophecy is just one of them, but it cannot stand independently. The impression that most people have of a prophet is that of a “hero” and it for this reason that they are offended when one says they are a prophet because the believe the claim is synonymous with claiming to be a hero. A prophet is not a separate entity from the church, as if he is come to aid the church as an external force, rather, a prophet is a part of the body, and is no more important than any other part. The nature of the revelation that is from prophecy is somewhat personal and must be simply accepted by faith, after all, which of the men who were used by God was the same as another? Which apostle’s “writing style” was the same as another? Yet they were all inspired by the same Spirit. This is because all members of the body of Christ are a different expression of Christ. Any expression of prophecy that does not lead to Christ, or leads away from Christ is false. Any ‘prophecy’ that does not come from the Spirit of Christ is false- whether it be from the Devil, the flesh or the “natural man”.Prophesying is not an exercise of memory, intelligence or experience (I do not believe that there is anything wrong with those things but they are not prophecy, and there is nothing wrong with that). Prophesying is when God expresses Himself through man vocally. Examine the scriptures and you will find that it is true. It is gift and is not earned or acquired by works and experience. If we truly understand what true prophesying is and we do not just turn it into something that is less because we are more comfortable with that, we would see why it is the highest order of gifts. Its is above miracles, healing and teaching (teaching is not necessarily prophecy). I guess when I say that something is not prophecy some get the impression that I am belittling their ministry but I am not, teaching and preaching are still “of the Spirit” and deeply convicting and useful, and necessary, but they are not prophecy. Prophecy is the epitome of “Thus saith the Lord”, and the one who prophesies has the capacity to allow the Spirit of the Lord to speak through him. When a true prophet (notice I am talking about the true ones here knowing that there are many false ones, but let this not blind us from the truth, and let us not become too preoccupied with them) says “Thus saith the Lord”, he is signifying that it is no longer him that speaks but the Spirit of the Lord in him. It is not necessary to say “thus saith the Lord”, but a distinction must be made between me giving an interpretation (and that has its place, an important place, but that does not make it prophecy) and the Holy Spirit of God addressing people though me.Now whether you believe that I have this gift or not is of no consequence but you must get it right my fellow saints, we cannot just call anything prophecy. It is for this reason that I said that if I prophesy in the morning and then I go and tell my brother about it in the evening, that is not prophesying, precisely because the message now proceeds from my memory and not from the Spirit of God. The Lord my allow me to prophesy the message again, by allowing His Spirit to speak through me and that would be prophesying, but, if it is not from the Spirit and it is from my memory (and there is nothing wrong with that) I am a not prophesying even though the message is prophetic (consider that statement very very carefully). Prophesying must be form the Spirit of God. If a I exercise knowledge acquired through prophecy (even if it is my own prophecy) and revelation that I am not “prophesying”, I am teaching (and that must also be lead by the Spirit but it is quite different from “thus saith the Lord”). Paul referes to himself as “an apostle and a teacher” (2Ti1:11 For this gospel I was appointed a herald, apostle, and teacher,) because there is a distinction between the administration of Apostleship and that of teaching, but they are both from the Spirit and none is more important than the other. In the same sense there is a distinction between the administration of the prophetic and that of teaching, but they are form the same Spirit and none is more important than the other. I am not saying that knowledge, wisdom, revelation and experience are nothing, but that is not prophesying.I used to believe that there was a distinction between one who prophesies and a prophet but, the bible makes no such distinction. If one can show that to me scripturally (in the new testament, because the dynamics of “The Body of Christ” are quite different from that of the nation Israel) I may change my mind. Now whether a prophet has to be able to prophesy I am not sure about, but from what I can see, scriptures refer to people who prophesy as prophets.James

Thanks Lahry Before I really understood this, I tried not to focus on it, because I was not sure of myself. I'm still not sure of myself, may it never be, but I more easily recognize when God is using me to bless or help another. You cannot turn it on or off. It does not come from memory. It's like the newsline at the bottom of network news. It just passes through you. If it is not recorded in some way, it's gone. Oh you may remember bits and pieces, but it's not the same. That it seems is a big part of all of this, where the doubts go and the cautions come from or more so are aimed at. I am not sure of so many things and the effort here to express... reflection on all of this is what my heart is trying to conve albeit in such a sloppy way.Needed to back off and do a little practice what I am 'preaching' here and as sometimes it is put "I am preaching this as much to myself as I am to you", we hear it often times and it can ring shallow as just some more nice "Christian-ese".I think the effort is to scratch and claw and dig deep down into these things until we get as close as possible to the truth. And at times it gets overdone, and a lot of times we can end up talking right past each other without really taking into consideration what each is saying, it's that rush to speak without really having given time to reflect and, here is the biggest and the one the Lord has been challenging me on...Praying.With all that has been said and my uttmost sincerity is that of concern, because many false .... have gone out into the world of primary reality. The other is in the fact that we can be decieved, the mind is a great trickster and the devil is and always will be a liar. A lot of questions came out an about from this whole thing and not a few red flags and probably the biggest of them all was what I percieve to be a rampant problem throughout and it was brought up here: Ramifications. That there is either a wholesale disregard or that it lies somewhere lower in the order of things is very much a concern. And it is just as much to the speaker as to the hearer. Again this a kind of both/and. The ones here as well as the one's 'out there'.As such the ones 'out there' for the most part seem to lack humility, there is a sense of being 'above it all', without reproach, without question and we would be quite foolish not to test them in thought, word and deed. But I digress, have beaten this into plowshares in a failing attempt to convey a real concern and gone to another extreme that sounds and is in some ways to much of an accusation towards a few here.My apologies to you brothers, you know who you are. Fewer words might have expressed it better:Are you sure?Does any of the things brought up here cause you to reflect? Do we both see our propensities to defend more than to clarify? Are we more concerned with what we think the scriptures say or do we let them interpet us? Ought we not to be even more careful especially in our day with what we percieve to be the oracles of God that will get past our lips and out through the finger tips here? That we are here to help one another ultimately and not make wholesale accusations against each other but neither are we to ignore or compromise, nor stop up our ears at the brethren who are sharing their concerns from the heart, to the benefit of all.I know I have gone too far as this has been preoccuping much energy and thought and the prompting that I knew and felt an indicted myself earlier here was in not listening to what the Holy Spirit was driving at...And that was, prayer. Specific, pulled away from everything kind of prayer. Prayer without ceasing, yes always. But there is a difference and came home to me more yesterday just in the normal course of things as I pondered some of the problems around here at home and the carrying around of much of this discussion in thought..."It is because you have not prayed" Came to mind, but not from my mind, it was the Holy Spirit. (I do have some confidence in hearing from the Lord :-( )And just as nicely this morning an article from brother Lars came through from Andrew Murray and go figure..."RESTRAINING PRAYER – IS IT SIN?"(Ah,... ouch...)“Thou restrainest prayer before God.” JOB 15:4. “What profit should we have, if we pray unto Him?” JOB 21:15. “God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you,” 1 SAM. 12:23.“Neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.” JOSH. 7:12. If we are to deal effectually with the lack of prayer we must look at it from this point of view and ask, Restraining prayer, is it sin? And if it be, how is it to be dealt with, to be discovered, and confessed, and cast out by man, and cleansed away by God? Jesus is a Saviour from sin. It is only as we know sin truly that we can truly know the power that saves from sin. The life that can pray effectually is the life of the cleansed branch – the life that knows deliverance from the power of self. To see that our prayer-sins are indeed sins, is the first step to a true and Divine deliverance from them.For all the zeal and concern, the one that convicted me (Oh it is a good thing to be convicted) was: “God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you,” 1 SAM. 12:23.To you Jimm and the Man of Iron for all my heartfelt concern for you, I still failed here. This was my rebuke and I thank God for showing it to me and I repented of it and come to you to express my failure, forgive me.And the beauty of it is that I did indeed do something about it and brought you both up before the Lord and by doing so He in return gave me a different perspective on matters. A more true heartfelt concern for your souls and your hearts and minds. There are some concerns yet still in this whole arena, but you are both brothers here and this is far bigger than a matter of spirtual giftings... What is the Lord after? It's a mighty big question. Hopefully it may cause us all to pause and consider and reflect on that as it applies to the this whole area.For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:9-18

I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't. 'If' that is true, then the credentials of a prophet or an apostle or any other calling can be gauged by the church in which that prophet, apostle etc ministers, or in the case of the apostole from which he is sent. So regarding the sons of thunder, are they recoginised within the local church as operating in that gifting then, I certainly must trust that that local congregations leadership has having recognised what God is already doing in that individual.

ZekeOWe are not recognized in a local church as prophets. The realization of this responisibility has come by God taking us out of that setting and dealing with us more intimately. In this dealing He has shown us that in actuality the saints will be the last people to heed whatever message we have from Him. Now that sounds like an oxymoron but it's beginning to make sense now. I mean look at this whole discussion, i mentioned that I am a prophet and I have yet to say anything that God has revealed to me and yet there has been a general reluctance or resistance to that.I don't have a voice that thunders nor can I call forth columns of fire from heaven to prove I am a prophet, God Himself will see through whatever words He places on my lips. In short people say they want to hear from prophets but the messages that God sends through the prophets are heeded by very few untill it is late. Look at all the prophets who went before, Noah fortold of the coming flood and noone listened, Jeremiah spoke of the impending doom of Israel for many years and noone believed him either. People ask for prophets but don't really want to hear from them.There is a grief in my spirit about this not because it is me being rejected, I can live with that but rather the word of God He is communicating through me is what will be rejected. I didn't wake up one day and say "mmm I think I shall be a prophet" so I didn't class myself as a prophet by pulling that out of the air.I never asked God for this, I didn't even know God still had prophets out there nor did I even want it and yet He said to me "that's your job" I thought God has made some sort of mistake but He assured me He has not. I lament sometimes 'why did I agree to this?" God said to me I chose you for this work and I will see it through and that is my comfort.What things must one have to become a prophet,I don't know really, God just picks and chooses as He pleases. It could just have easily been ZekeO, if we were to go to our congregation or any other and say " ok we are prophet sent of God with a message for you" I don't think we would be well receieved. We might end up being tossed out without even passing on the message. What prophet was ever accepted by the people? They all tended to be outcasts as far as I know, grieving quietly. in solitude. it would be nice if we could do that though, it seems the church structure has no room in it for prophets.If not being accepted as a prophet in a congregation means one is not a prophet then what of the elijahs and jeremiahs who had not congregations (as far as I know so I may be wrong) ?All I know is what God said to me, He said it, I believe it and that settles it for me. Not sure I can make that any plainer. noone needs to believe it nor accept it but whatever I speak that has come from God, God Himself will hold up, that goes for anyone else who comes forth with a word from God.

I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't. I was about to agree with you when Martin Luther King Jr. came to mind! I believe he was a prophet, but he wasn't validated by a large portion of the church.It's a shame that much of the church (divided by racial forces) ostracized him during his lifetime. In fact, even today many in the church remain reluctant to embrace him. I'll have to consider this a little more. Perhaps the church can fail to recognize a true prophet...at least initially. That doesn't mean that the church must not gauge it's prophets because why else would Jesus warn us about false ones? It may however mean that some prophets, during their testing, must walk lonely untraveled roads removed from the comfort of others. If that's true, then I guess it's back to the drawing board for some of my preconceptions. There may be a few lonely prophets out there, alienated by the church, that could use a cup of water...or a cup of kindness."Then Jesus said to them, "Prophets are not without honor, except in their hometown, and among their own kin, and in their own house."MC

IRONMAN wrote:We are not recognized in a local church as prophets. I have been raised to belive in church and the way it operates, Gods plan is the whole church working together as a co-ordinated body. So I believe fully and trust that the leadership of that church would acknolwledge what God has placed within you. A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men. Proverbs 18:16 The church is not your enemy, neither are the people within the church your enemy. In saying that I acknowledge that those who are our fiercest critics come from within the church.The prophetic calling as you understand it is maybe a bit different to the way that I see it. I am part of a church that is hungering for more of God, so I view any gifting through the lenses of the quality if leader in the church and the NT fumctions of the the five-fold. For me I do not see that a prophet has rebukes for the church that is living in sin as a default setting. I may be presuming what your message is, but please bear in mind I am talking about what constitutes prophetic credentials. The prophetic 'office/function' is to help keep the structural integrity of the church...built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets...Eph 2:20 This does not always necesitate a confrontation of sin. It does however keep the church focussed as to its real call and task. It just seems to me from my observations that many would presume that a prophet is of the OT classic type. You know camel skinned, fire calling, silent loner, acting and sounding like Elijah...I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too...1 kings 19:14 I understand what Compton was saying and I agree, a prophet is without honour most times in his own home town, how can I disagree, Jesus experienced the same thing. Within the church however and I would believe within your church there are...seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. 1 kings 19:18 I am not challenging your call and your comments about you being a prophet, I am just clarifying, maybe for my own benfit what makes a prophet? How does he operate? etc. I actually am not really bothered about your claims, It is what makes a prophet that I am interested in? At more to the point of this whole thread, what are his credentials and who bears witness to those credentials. I feel that after so many others have posted I may just be behind the eight ball on this one.If not being accepted as a prophet in a congregation means one is not a prophet then what of the elijahs and jeremiahs who had not congregations. The point is that Gods plan is church, that is his 'A' plan always was and always will be. Apostolic christianity is about making two one, that through the cross God was not only restoring us to himself, but us to each other. I do not believe that there is any room in NT christianity for living in ones cave away from the world or the brethren. The church is people and no function I believe within the church should accomadate men/women living an isolationist lifestyle because knowone would listen to the message.

Lahry...Thank you dear brother... My insides are at a bursting point. The failed expressions. The want or lack of proper words and then the Lord sends blessed help through someone else. You have made the tears wel up brother.Yesterday, interestingly enough... Jer 9 and 12...Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and my eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Jer 9:2 Oh that I had in the desert a travelers' lodging place, that I might leave my people and go away from them! For they are all adulterers, a company of treacherous men. Jer 9:3 They bend their tongue like a bow; falsehood and not truth has grown strong in the land; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not know me, declares the LORD. Jer 9:23 Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, Jer 9:24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD." Jer 12:3 But you, O LORD, know me; you see me, and test my heart toward you. Pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and set them apart for the day of slaughter. Jer 12:4 How long will the land mourn and the grass of every field wither? For the evil of those who dwell in it the beasts and the birds are swept away, because they said, "He will not see our latter end." Jer 12:5 "If you have raced with men on foot, and they have wearied you, how will you compete with horses? And if in a safe land you are so trusting, what will you do in the thicket of the Jordan? Jer 12:6 For even your brothers and the house of your father, even they have dealt treacherously with you; they are in full cry after you; do not believe them, though they speak friendly words to you." Jer 12:10 Many shepherds have destroyed my vineyard; they have trampled down my portion; they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness. Jer 12:11 They have made it a desolation; desolate, it mourns to me. The whole land is made desolate, but no man lays it to heart. Brother, had sworn to my own hurt that I would beg off of this whole topic and yet still...But my sentiments are shared here. It is so dfficult to express and the honest restling with what was said earlier about being 'diplomatic' caused much reflection... Whatever my worthless opinion is. what seems to be bearing own out of all this is to try and get a full orbed view of things before uttering out anything as serious and weighty as to be 'prophetic', whether that be just exegisis of what has already been said in scripture or what is to come in a spirtual sense or be it 'literal'.There is just so much that needs to be seriously considered. It is not to inject paranoia, it is not to place doubts about ones calling, it is not about pleasing 'mere men' as I put it elsewhere, borrowing from Paul...Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? or am I striving to please men? if I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. In that sense, surely we are a different bred of men, not 'better than'... Nor am I concerned about making defense's or backtracking other than if it was done in the wrong spirit or in reliance on the flesh. And will always welcome an open rebuke to error in my thinking. All that is false needs to be exposed for what it is. All that is suspect, questionable... should it not be brought out to the Light and exposed to see if it is pure? Perhaps not 'perfect', but the substance...I do understand about being led by the spirit and certainly most of us here are not of a shallow sort, there is a blessed welcoming of digging down deeper into the core of things here. And praise God for it! It is at bottom just a consideration from the like hearted around here to absorb others considerations, their thoughts, the Holy Spirit is also indwelling them.There is so much to think on from the various topics and discussions and to my particular way of thinking I tend to blurr them somewhat together. I think of what Neil posted in the "Kraft" thread and the despicable things that had gone on and have been exposed recently that he mentioned and I wonder at it all, why didn't they take a stronger more decisive stand at the time? All this back room shifting around of these so called preists and the words of our Lord echoing of milstones... And then the great outpuring for the pope's death and ... And Karl is right there as well. And Greg's thought's before all that. And we can bounce over to all that our brother Rahman brought forth which I have yet to get caught up on, a hunch that there is much that applies here as well to the buisiness of the prophetic. And Aarons bringing forth much food for thought with the areas of eschatology and the overlaping sentiments brought out here. And Lahry you yourself, ah, dear saint your heart cut's like a blessed knife through so much. The things you bring forth cause much reflection and prayer and a different perspective which to gain and apply to these same areas here. What about India and those brethren? What about Ethiopia? How does the 'prophetic' apply there? Is it not a great danger to apply our western minds to these areas only, that which pertains to us here in the 'good ol U.S. of A.?' What about the U.K.? What about the persecution...What about China?The wonderful thing about the internet is that many who are of "the remnant" are here. Many of those are here on SI. Thanks be to God. I need each of you in my life. You all add to me the love and wonderful wonder of Jesus Christ. God bless you and keep you, lead you and guide and you prosper all that you lay hand upon. I wholeheartedly agree. There is something completly different about this ... gathering.. and it's probably about time I quit mincing words about it. There are things going on that have yet to be told and in the Lords timing they will come out. This is a precious gem we behold here, the resources and fellowship of the burning heart for Gods glory and for the Lord Jesus Christ to be all in all... It is truly incredible...I mean Jesses car burst into flames yesterday... mere happenstance? My car Bursted into flames .... Will let that be a matter of our own reflections.So I try not to think about it, I just do it when it comes, as unto the Lord. I give Him so much liberty, that I try not to judge anything myself. I just basically share my heart. It's not that I have a good heart, I just have a good God that lives there. I yield myself to Him and His love. I fall in wonder to Him being mindful of me at all. I can't help but worship Him and give Him all the glory, honor, and praise, in Jesus' Holy and Gracious Name. Amen and amen.Understand that as well brother...Sometimes all this stinking thinking...That we would all just consider and pray for one another.

Brother Mike you wrote:"That we would all just consider and pray for one another" ...And i hear our Lord saying:"That we would all just consider and pray with one another"That's the message of the prophet Joel ...That's the message God has given me to proclaim to my pastor ...Satan has done a real job on "prayer" period in this so called modern church ... But he's worked a whammy on "corporate prayer" ... Why do you think he's done this? ... Because effective, fervent "corporate prayer" is key to getting God's attention to His outpouring of REVIVAL ...REVIVAL! is the single most dreaded word in the kingdom of the dark lord, and he has done, and will continue to do, all in his malignant power to keep the Church of Christ off our faces in pursuit of said REVIVAL ...But he'll not succeed! ... NEVER! ... To the devil's dismay, and to the shock of so many Christian naysayers, we're going on our faces and REVIVAL IS COMING!!! ... And no i can't tell you the day or the hour but my spiritual spider senses are tingling off the hook in the anticipation that it's coming SOON!

Hi Lahry,Appreciate your boldness here. Surely others will disagree and honestly I am unsure one way or the other. Can't, won't, may or may not...All are the secrets of the Lord and this will just as surely delve into the area of who is hearing what. So I hope and ask for patience here right from the get go. Please.The only observation that I might throw out there in the realm of possibilities is this: Perhaps we are in a revival right now and don't even recognize it. The Silent Revival, the Remnant Revival, whatever you want to call it. That a few in a truly 'numbers' way of looking at things are pulling away from the 'system' as it has become and are seeking after what is strictly true, going back down the old paths to try and find what is missing. Searching out church history for completely different reasons than academic. That will stop at nothing till they find what is real reality in all that the Lord came to do in and through us. Beyond the shallows and into what is at the core of our miserable selves. I think it's happening and that what the future holds may only be more of the same, won't even speculate it, just seems that way. No advertising, no big fireworks show, (Sorry, not to be flippant). But just an almost imperceivable quiet under girding and sustaining. This is all but a matter of mere opinion, nothing more. Glad to be equally yoked as another nobody brother.Besides it does seem that this is directed in regards to America anyway if I am getting your drift. What of all the other countries? Perhaps this may apply. I certainly don't really disagree with your premises, that persecution may come here seems only inevitable. The boundaries are already practically meaningless and it seems that the only thing really gaining any steam in our culture is a bent towards more and more evil, with a nice glossed over look to it of course. "Calling good evil and evil good". 2 Tim 3 it is...

The only observation that I might throw out there in the realm of possibilities is this: Perhaps we are in a revival right now and don't even recognize it. The Silent Revival, the Remnant Revival, whatever you want to call it. That a few in a truly 'numbers' way of looking at things are pulling away from the 'system' as it has become and are seeking after what is strictly true, going back down the old paths to try and find what is missing. Searching out church history for completely different reasons than academic. That will stop at nothing till they find what is real reality in all that the Lord came to do in and through us. Beyond the shallows and into what is at the core of our miserable selves.Lahry said,I share your desire for revival brother. But I am telling you, it will not come to pass. Christianity is in under attack like never before. That will get worse, much worse. It will become legal to prosecute and torture christians. True believers. The churches will lable them heritics and scream crucify them right along with the media. There will be no revival. I think you are both right. There are those thinking that "revival" means the masses wallering around in repentance, but I think "revival" means a few going whole hog for God. Many of those few will be ruthlessly persecuted by the religious system. So, Lahry, what you are saying is 'no revival' is 'revival', to me. I believe it, because I see where your heart is, and Mike's, and Rahman's, and Chanin's, and Compton's, and so many more...It gives me courage to press on and lay aside this world for a better prize. I haven't even read through this entire thread, just this one page, but I know this site is rich with True Prophets. My spirit witnesses with the message that prevails here. Love Ya'll. Dian.

Paul had this to say:If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1 Cor 15:19 KJVor the NIV: If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.There must be something about our call in this life which would have prompted him to say such a thing? You wonder how some preachers explain away such versus.

Brother Lahry you wrote;Quote:"I so appreciate your zeal and your love. Thank you for your post. I simply cannot aggree with you". As i do yours brother Lahry, but it's ok that you don't agree with me ... You certainly wouldn't be the first one, hmmmmm, wait a minute, have i even had a first one? ... :-P ... So as i've said in the past (to others who don't see Revival coming) God and time will prove one of us wrong, and this is the one instance where i'm wilfully totally selfish in hoping and praying that it's you!Quote:I dont' think revival is coming. Maybe a small repentence here and there. But no large outpouring. It's not prophecied in the Word.Brother Lahry (or anyone) if i'm wrong then please correct me, but were any of the NT Revivals fortold or recorded in scripture? ... One might want to state Pentecost itself but that wasn't a Revival, that was an Arrival ... What about Martin Luther and the Reformamtion? ... Was that a Revival? ... Was it recorded in Scripture? ... How about the Welsh Revival, was that recorded in scripture? ...According to The History of Revival, if i remember correctly by brother Orr right here on this SI site, there have been a series of Revivals sent approximately every 50 years or so beginning in Europe, most notably in American history from the 1700's on up, and all i might add proceeded by fervent prayer amongst small groups of saints across denominational lines, all crying out to our merciful God for a fresh outpouring ... America had Azusa street around the 1900's, the Revival that was to take place in the 1950's brother Orr said fizzled because it could not compete with America's materialistic boomtime prosperity ... In other words who needs God or Revival, when we're rolling in dough? ... Brother Orr also stated that it was the history of England that if any nation missed two consecutive Revivals in a row then that nation was sure to spiritual decline in freefall ... Now i believe that Revival's coming because i believe that's what i heard our Lord say to me some 20 years ago ... i also believe that Revival's coming because i've found on SI others who refuse in the face of all odd to be defeatist when it comes to much needed Revival ... As i said, i could be the one as wrong as two left shoes when it comes to our attaining Revival, but if i am it won't be for lack of me believing for, praying for, and proclaiming for REVIVAL! ... i totally know that God is not a respecter of persons, and that if we'd but all get on our faces in corporation, preferably preachers first, that He will pour out a blessing on us that we couldn't even contain ... And wouldn't that be such a wondorous testimony for Christ Church to be so filled of the Holy Ghost that He's just gushing forth, and running out of our pores ... The harvest is greater now than it ever has been, and the workers so few ... So how does the work force increase? ... By die hard, refuse to take no for an answer revivalist, PRAYING that the Lord of the harvest send in more workers ... i heard a preacher once say that it's or job to tell men about Christ, but it's Holy Spirit's job to bring them to Christ ... Divinity in partnership with humanity toward the salvation of souls ... There's no way that this self contained, laid back, resting on it's laurels, rich and in need of "everything holy", American Laodicean Church, will be telling anyone in the way that God requires, about Jesus, apart from the Mother of all Revivals ... No way! ... As with Esther of the OT this modern American Church needs a time period with the chamberlain (God the Holy Spirit) to get us "right" before our being presented to our King and Bridegroom ... Also as i've said before, "If America's 1950's Revival was thwarted by rampant abundance, then America's 2000's Revival should be increased by rampant need" ... You may want to take the book pf Joel in it's most literal sense toward the Israelites, but the admonition therein is a perfect formula for any group of saints in earnest diligence to touching heaven ... If what's in the OT wasn't beneficial to we NT folk, then i'm sure God would have just given us the NT ... Quote:I just spent about 30 mins writing what I saw coming in the next few years. Then I was so reluctant to post it, I wiped it out. Sigh. Egads brother Lahry why would you do such a thing? ... i for one would have surely liked to have known what you see ... If i feel led, or am directly told of Holy Spirit to say, write or post it ... i say, write or post it ... All that i believe is posted in these SI forums ...Quote:"As America goes, so goes the world. The leadership and the wealth required to fuel the progress toward and all the technology needed to supply the tribulation need is in the hands of the american dollar. Greed is the number one driving force in America brother, not the Holy Spirit. This economy cannot falter until the final collapse of the economy of the entire world. After all that's been posted about where the American economy is right now i'll not go into this any further ... If you really believe this brother Lahry then you're about to be in for the first shock, America's tumbling economy ... Did you just see what happened to the pensioners of United Airlines? ... This is but a precursor my brother ... Didn't you just take notice that GM and Ford have been relegated to junk bond status? ... No where in the Word do you read where anti-christ is tied to America, but to the revived Roman Empire, the EU ... Have you taken a good look at the Euro's symbol? ... It's such an easy transistion from the dollar sign ... Do you know that OPEC wants to be paid in Eoro's because the value of the dollar is in the toilet, but won't make the jump yet because they fear our military under the control of the Neo-cons? ... Did you know that one of the reasons Saddam is dipposed is due to the fact that he was a staunch advocate for Euros for oil instead of the $, and that much of his under the table UN Oil for Food money was being paid in Euros? ... America's economy is about to tumble way before what you stated, and when this occurs it will lead to your second shock ... REVIVAL! ... Because no one seeks after God like folk in trouble, especially financial trouble ... Brother Lahry can you imagine how many saints are effected by United Airlines pension woes, as well as how many saints were even effected by Enron, World Com and the like? ... Can you imagine the why's being asked of pastors of many of these saints? ... Can you imagine the foul feelings that must be going thru the minds of those who were assured by the false prophets that their seed offerings assured them of every wealth, health and success? ... Quote:"I share your desire for revival brother. But I am telling you, it will not come to pass. Christianity is in under attack like never before. That will get worse, much worse".May our Lord (if it be His will) grant us both the longevity to "see" exactly how it will all go down ... And historically nothing makes the Church strive and grow like "persecution" ...Quote:"Brother, I'm a nobody from nowhere. I cannot find a single virtual pulpit open to me to preach. I am unwanted, an uninvited. I am not even welcome in churches".Ha! ... Ha! ... i'd wonder about you if you could find a pulpit, and if you we're welcome ... You know i know all about this ... A side note though, Holy Spirit told me a while back that i was never to stand in/at any pastors pulpit because i am not his equal in the candlestick that Christ has given him ... i was told to either (if given the opportunity) address the assembly from the floor, or a halfway point between the floor and the pastors raised pulpit ... i was also instructed to tell the congregation why? ...Quote:"Oh God how I hate to post this. But as brother Tozer so well said, I am responsible only to God, and He is responsible for all things. So post it I will, even though I already know many will call me a fool".That's the spirit brother Lahry! ... So please remember this before you trash anything else that took 30 minutes to write ... i like to get the whole picture ... REVIVAL or NO REVIVAL ... that is the question? ... Amen

Lahry,I am blessed by your posts here! I have come such a long way in the last few years. Starting out thinking i was a prophet and hanging onto hope that God would use me as such- to totally giving up any concern or care what God sees me as- just his vessel and servant is all I want to be- and it doesn't mean he won't have me doing things that aren't under the "prophet" label, or any other label for that matter.I am not going to limit Him or limit what He wants to do with me. If we continually see ourselves as prophet or teacher or whatever.... we will limit ourselves to those particular areas and never give the other areas any thought. If we are "gifted" in those areas then how much more can God show His strength through us than to use us where we are not naturally gifted. (same things goes with all those "spiritual gifts" tests.) Believers have gone for centuries and never had spiritual gift tests- and God used them just fine :) Probably better so, because the people were not meddling with what God wanted to do- thinking they know better than He how to be "used".Am I a prophet? Am I prophetic? Who cares! I just do what I see my Father doing.I am coming to the conclusion that the only people who are really prophets are the ones who don't care that they are, don't want to be, and don't know they are. Oswald Chambers is a good example. He didn't know he was a modern day prophet, didn't care to be. Tozer, probably the same. It wasn't until after their lives were over that that their words and messages really came to mean a sigificant amount. Why? so that God got all the glory!Blessings, Chaninp.s. if any of this was already stated please forgive me, I didn't read throught the entire thread, just beginning and end :)

Brother Lahry you wrote;"I love you brother, I really do" ...How do you mean this ... unconditionally in Christ ... or more in the vein of a patronizing "Poor Rahman, he's so sincere but misled"? ... i put the smiley faces in :-P :-P :-P because i want you to know that i'm not angry, but the additional "I really do" struck me as "loaded", like you we're trying to convince me ... You continued;Quote;"I want to also state that anyone who hungers for revival can have it anytime they choose. Repent and die, die to the flesh. Get out of the world and the world out of you. Run to the Holy One, the One Who fills to overflowing, those who obey His voice".Amen, this is something that most of us "revivalist" already know regarding "individual" revival, but of course i'm talking "corporate" revival ... And tho what i'm about to say may be a little hard hitting i find that folk who either don't believe in a coming revival, or those who just can't seem to be bothered with all that collective falling on our faces, and crying out to Him in praying repentance for said revival, are quick to point a person such as myself to "individual" revival ... Bottom line is i concider it the easy cop-out answer ... God has brought me a mighty long way in curbing my acerbic tongue, so know i spend a lot of time repenting for my acerbic thoughts :-( ... Ya'll pray for me please! ...You continued;Quote;"I have always been intrigued by the little book "Like a Mighty Wind". This Indonesian revival began without outside intervention. I tend to believe in its genuiness than some others I've heard about, especially in the USA" .And i've come to be intrigued by the life of a man of God named Leonard Ravenhill who prayed for revival, the kind of revival i'm talking about, for 60 years and never saw it ... i wonder to God how he did that in that i'm about ready to throw in the towel at 20 years ... Makes a brother truly understand why God had to point out the "this is what'll happen to you if you give up" clause to both Jeremiah and Ezekiel ... The brethren can be rough at times ...Brother Lahry have you researched the U.S. Revivals? ... If not then how can you make such a judgement and/or statement as to your percieved genuiness of them? ... i can see why you might be pulled toward believing the Indonesian Revival, for you're tugged of God to "exotic" places such as India to minister in ... Whereas God on the other hand has given me a great burden for the most "neurotic" place in need of Him, the good old U.S. of A. herself, the seat of His stiff necked people and rebellious house ... You continued;Quote;"Oh the pride of having my own righteousness. Wouldn't I be something? How about you? But I must shed any hope in my own works of righteousness and throw myself at the feet of the merciful One Who died for me. I would really be something if I could please God with my works, if I could suffer enough to be justified before Him. But the truth is, I simply cannot do any of this. I must rely fully and entirely upon Jesus Christ and Him crucified in my place. There is no approach to our Holy God without His righteous covering, that being the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Savior and our Lord. Glory be to God. Forgive me Father and deliver me from myself by faith in Your Holy Son Jesus" ...Now you completely threw me with this ... Since your reply started out Rahman, brother Lahry are you suggesting here that i might be just a tad self righteous in some way? ... If so, then please make it plainer (pm me if you like) ... i like things as plain as black and white, i've never been one to much for color and gray areas ... If not, then please excuse my misunderstanding of your post ... But for the record let me state to you, and all of SI what i think about any "righteousness" in Rahman ... There's none whatsoever, period, kaput of myself ... Why God thru Christ chose to "elect" me from before the very foundation of the world i'm sure will always remain an eternal mystery to me ... And why He even choose to call me in any way to His service follows a close second ...You know the scripture that compares all our righteousness as to filthy rags, well i don't even entertain as having even filthy rags to compare to righteousness ... ANY and ALL righteousness that i have is indwealt in me by the power of Holy Spirit and the righteousness that i've been baptised into via Holy Spirit has but one name, Jesus! ... SoHoly Spirit has taught me that the only reason/way the prayer of "a righteous man (can) availeth much", is when that man knows that the righteous power behind his prayers has all to do with coming from the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and not one sub-atomic particle of his own ... "Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart" takes on a whole new meaning when one realizes that His heart desires have repaced your old ones" ... i know that you don't believe this, and it really doesn't matter for as i said God and time will reveal, but i believe Revival for us is God's heart desire, and i believe He's placed His desire for it in my own heart, so poor misguided fool that i may be, i'm believing that Revivals on it's way! ... ;-) Br. R

I have another question, does someone who classes themselves as a prophet have any validity outside of the church? I have a small hunch that no they don't. I'm way behind guys so forgive me for remarking on things starting here. Validity(websters)justness,soundness,legal sufficiency. The whole matter of credentials of being a prophet is thats what they are, in the same way that a dog is a dog or cat a cat, a prophet can be nothing else and his or her validation is from God, however they will function differently in society than they do in the 4 walls of the church.Now that's not to say that what they do shouldn't be judged in the local church, 1Cor tells us to judge all things and also says the prophets should judge what they bring forth. I know a man who was at a festival where thousands of people were and out of the blue he called a little boy(I think he was only 7 yrs.?) out and told him that God had called him to himself for ministry. Only later to find out that the little boy was the son of a visiting minister from Africa, that happened not in a church or church function but out at a worldly event, a 4th of July festival. I believe that the gifts that accompany a prophet will operate continuelly or to the extent the prophet will either allow or exercise those giftings. We have limited the exercise of Jesus Christ through us in society soooo much. I believe that, even on this board , there are thoughs here who God wants so badly to use in society with those special giftings that if they would just yeild to the Holy Spirit amazing things would happen. God Bless, Bro. Daryl

1Jo 4:17 By this love has been perfected [or, completed] with us, so that we shall be having confidence [or, a joyful sense of freedom] in the day of the judgment, because just as that One is, [so] also _we_ are in this world. I've always loved Jesus' own words where he said it would be enough to be as our master. I sometimes think that when we set our sights on being anything other than a true expression of Jesus Christ on earth, we've fallen short of what God had intended for us and for His Glory. God Bless Bro. Daryl

Br. Lahry you wrote:Quote:"This forum is basically blind. I can't see you, nor you me"Amen, that's why i've learned to ask about anything i'm not sure of on this forum ...Quote:"I was not trying to convince as much as I was trying to reassure you. Does that make sense"?Oh ok, but there was no need for reassurance in that even in disagreement i never felt anything from you but your usual mild and loving spirit ... i think the "reassurance" is what came across as so foriegn to me that it made my spider senses tingle ... Thanks brother Lahry for setting things straight for me ...Quote:"I just want to be so overwhelmed with Him again like the very first time He overwhelmed me. Like the folks in Indonesia, I had no knowledge are preconcieved ideas. I just asked Him to reveal Himself to me in a personal way, which He did. Oh the wonderful presence He bestowed on my heart. I could never be the same. Perfect? Hardly. But I don't need a book to tell me God is real and lives in my heart. But I just want an overflow of His wonder and love. I can sense that you do too. (Christian brotherly hugs)Amen i most certainly do, but i have this burden to see your/our experience multiplied exponentially throughout the Body of Christ, repentance and return to our first love on a more corporate level, on our faces crying out as congregations, led anew by pastors who've been on their faces first before calling solemn assemblies ... You know when i talk to saints out of Joel about corporate prayer for revival most look at me like i'm promoting some type of ancient needless ritual ... It's hard to even get folk to pray individually about it, especially those who don't believe it to be possible ... Then i ask them is there a certain desire of their heart that they keep beseeching God for and have not as yet recieved? ... Most say "yes", and i can tell you that it's usually something "material" or "personal" ... Then i ask if they intend to keep on beseeching God about it till they get it, or at least a definite "no" from our Master ... They generally say "yes" ... Then i ask well why can't you just throw in a kingdom seeking petition for Revival along side that "material/personal" thing you're constantly seeking Him for ... That's when i usually get "the dumb look", which lets me know i made my point but doubt very seriously that they'll be praying for revival ... "Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness AND ALL OTHER THINGS shall be added to you ... It took me a long time to "get" this scripture, and i suppose i have to be patient with others in it's regard ... i have one clear vision "Revival of Christ Church" ... i have one clear goal "Revival of Christ Church" ... i have one clear prayer request that superceed any other, that Christ would please "Revive His Church" ... "Revival of Christ Church" has become the A-number one desire of my heart ...Quote:"Brother, you are an endeared man of God to me, and ever shall be. I never ever meant anything derogatory toward you. Love does not do that. I get so frustrated when I don't articulate His love. Would you please love me enough to acept that as being so. Of course brother Lahry, it was the "How about you" that i didn't understand but you've certainly cleared it all up for me and i accept it in that spirit of "love believeth all things" that our beloved Apostle Paul spoke of ...Br. R

bro DohzmanI think that sums up prophetic credentials then, prophets just are because God says so. The prophets can judge what other prophets bring forth because of a unique bond among them, the spirits of propehts bear witness to eachother. it's a weird connection.We indeed have so limited God's ability to work in us and through us by many preconcieved notions which are largely false. Perhaps we should start over and let Him lead and teach us each day. Start from zero and say" ok God I knowo nothing, teach me"

The prophets can judge what other prophets bring forth because of a unique bond among them, the spirits of prophets bear witness to each other. It's a weird connection.In our discussion on prophetic credentials, we have occasionally touched on another controversial subject: Church Government.Paul wrote the somewhat unclear words: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Did he mean that a prophet is subject only to other prophets according to a "unique bond?" or uncanny insight shared by prophets? Or was Paul referring to the ultimate authority of recorded scriptural prophecy and the delgated authority of the pastor or elder to judge all other prophecy accordingly?Or was Paul referring to something else?MC

sister dorcasI'm not saying that there is no bond between prophets and other gifted people but that prophets have an understanding of eachother that is unique to them. hence they can bear witness to eachother and are thus subject to one another. Perhaps it is that way from say evangelist to evangelist for example, I'm not sure. I didn't mean that only prophets had to do away with preconcieved notions in order to serve God properly and if I did seem like that forgive me. I mean that we ALL as believers have much by way of ideas and theologies and other ologies and isms that we need to do away with.

Comptonit has to do with a unique understanding in the Spirit among prophets. It's hard to explain but the closes thing I can think of that would make some kinda sense is I'm black and unless you're also black some things will just be abstract to you if you are white. I could explain some things to you but if you haven't experienced them or seen them from my perspective they don't have the same gravity for you. does that make sense?I guess the understanding oddly enough would make sense most among prophets. maybe it is that way for the other offices? I'm not sure but that has been my experience anyway. If I were to speak with another prophet about how God has been dealing witj me or what He has shown me it would be much easier for the prophet to understand or listen seriously as opposed to anyone else. most people would probably think I've lost my marbles. :-? I'm finding that prophecy is much more involving than speaking of the future though that is probably what is best known about it.

Call it what you will, but the suspicision remains. All this defending seems contrary to whatever a prophet is or was in scripture, just don't find it there. If it must keep being brought forth as such, then by the same token the warnings must as well, there are far too many other brethren being caught up in all this not to.Lifted from this thread with kudos to Ron (InTheLight): I did not send them... yet they prophesied..."The man who calls himself prophet and talks statistically (for example, seventy or eighty percent predictive accuracy) is not in keeping with the timbre, the character and the knit of a truly prophetic man. To determine whether a prophet is true or false should not immediately depend on whether their predictions are accurate. The real issue is not the accuracy of prediction in assessing the validity of prophets. Even to think statistically is to put us on a false basis in determining true and false among prophets. False prophets can bring a biblically correct message, but it is the kind of message that is a routine commonplace, that is to say, which virtually anyone can bring. There is nothing in it that can be faulted in terms of doctrine, but it is not oracular. It is not a message that bears prophetic weight, intensity, seriousness or requirement. Oracular speaking can be distinguished by the way it brings with it a perception of reality and of the purposes of God that were not there before that word came. It opens up things as God Himself sees them, which is altogether not as we see them!If we allow the word ‘prophet’ to be given to anyone who is giving predictive prophecy or even the gift of knowledge or what may be more likely, clairvoyance, and call that oracular prophecy, then we are well on the way to deception! These men speak messages of a predictable kind, but they are usually only a preliminary that one has to wait through in order to get to the ‘action’ for which we have really come, namely, for their predictive and personal prophecies that so excite and titillate us as an audience. The greater issue is not whether these prophets are accurate most of the time so much as whether they are prophets at all! To confirm the church in its present lightness by their own example is analogous to the false prophets of Old Testament time who confirmed Israel in its sin. All in all, one must ask, "What is their revelation? How oracular is it? What is it more or other than the general preaching of others who make no profession of being prophetic? Is their distinctive not much more than the sensationalism or excitement of their gifts or the anticipation derived from the elevated status generated largely by their mutual affirmation of each other?"-from The Spirit of Prophecy: An Examination of the Prophetic Call by Art KatzMore to be brought into consideration:Pillow Prophets (Brought forth from Ed {Gideons} and an article by David Wilkerson)A different take perhaps...Aspects of the Prophetic OfficePerhaps most importantly and of a first issue is some better defining and had taken awhile to find this, wish it could have been brought forth earlier:Men spake from God Brought forth by Philologos.This snippet from this last link, oddly the same expression as at the first here:The Functions of a Prophet. The prophet is not defined or explained in the Old Testa­ment; he is taken for granted. This is because he has existed from the very first (Luke 1:70; Acts 3:21), and has not been confined to Israel, e.g. Balaam (Num. 22:5), the prophets of Baal (IKings 18:19). There are true and false prophets among the nations, as there are in Israel. But Amos makes it clear that the prophets of Israel are a special gift of God (Amos 2:11) without real parallel among the Canaanites.

Dorcas My belief is that the statement you quote from Paul, was made back then simply to point out that a person who is in the midst of prophesying has control of their faculties - their faculties are subect to their will. This is true. My brother (IRONMAN) and I have different administrations. I will rarely prophesy about the subjects he does and he will rarely prophesy about the subjects I do. When we are together in the Spirit of the Lord, he (Farai) will speak forth concerning his area and while I do have a word from the Lord, I do not just cut him off while he is speaking, partly for the sake of order, and partly because I myself need to here what the Lord is saying. Sometimes it will occur that we prophesy at the same time, and that I will say half a sentence and the other half will come from him and some words we say at the same time. On one occasion as we prophesied to one Brother in prayer, I spoke with a very loud voice, and Farai would say the last few words in a calm still voice. There was a severity in that message of repentance but there was also a reassurance that he did not have to rely on his own righteousness but on the peace of God. It was one of the first occasions we prophesied together and what shocked me was, the fact that Farai would speak in immediate succession to me, as if he somehow knew what the last word would be and the exact moment when I would stop, so the sentences continued without interruption or discontinuity. I do not say that this was the consummation and the sum of the statement, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22) but it was indeed an expression of it. One expression of prophesying with one accord was in Acts 4:23-31:And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. I wonder if we recognize this as prophecy. While it is divinely inspired it is not necessarily a “make something happen” prophecy, it is a prophecy of praise, and many times this is the nature of our prophecies. Some prophecies are words of exhortation towards Christ by declaring the Excellency of Christ. Some are words of rebuke and admonishing by declaring the severity of God, and the impending doom judgment upon ungodliness. Some prophecies are indeed a seeing into the future, or a pronouncement of what God has executed in the immediate physical or spiritual realm, such as the one in Acts13:11, “And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.”. This is what I call a “make something happen” prophecy, the prophet prophesies and something happens, in this case blindness falls upon Barjesus. Now please do not zero in on that last statement as if it was all I have said in this post. The entire point here was not to define anything but to illustrate the different kinds of prophecies there are. Has this will cause shed a different light to some? One thing that is marvelous here as SI is that we have all had the same or similar instructors in the Tozers and Ravenhills of this site. Please keep this in remembrance when you view what is written by the Brothers here. Let us not discriminate the eyes or the ears of the body because they do not perceive, as we perceive, or as an exhortation to become an eye or an ear, rather let us let us learn whatever we can form each other that we may use it in our own administrations. This is one thing I have been learning from my fellowship in Christ with Farai. There are some things he can do in the Spirit that I cannot, and there are other things that I can do that he cannot but this not a point of contention but one of edification. There are some prophecies which only he can execute because he has the unique gifting and relationship with Christ for it, and vise versa. I say this only to illustrate not to promote anything, for you guys who I cannot see you and I cannot even so much as receive a “pat on the back”, (I don’t want that, for the record) so please understand I am not after anything. I personally would rather not tell you because I look like an arrogant misguided heretic who promotes seeking after “signs and wonders”, and not after Christ but I am compelled to share for the benefit of those who can receive it. I love Jesus Christ and serve Him with my spirit everyday, and at the end of the day, he is the center of the church, and he is the center of all our (every Christian) ‘credentials’.Sighs and tearsJames

Jimm wrote:Let us not discriminate the eyes or the ears of the body because they do not perceive, as we perceive, or as an exhortation to become an eye or an ear... When we finally all meet one day, I think that we are going to be surprised as to those who were actually seeing correctly.

Brother Jimm, you signed off;"Sighs and tears ... James"By Job, i think you've got it"! ... ;-)

Brother Zeke you wrote;"When we finally all meet one day, I think that we are going to be surprised as to those who were actually seeing correctly"In the presence of God Himself i'd be surprised if anyone even cares ... :-P

Jamesthanks for that last post. Hey i haven't seen you in a couple of days 8-) Dorcasi hope that post helped some, I'm certainly no expert on it all but I do have a testimotny that i can share and will do so.

Hi Dorcas,Not in the least, just wanted to bring some other thought into all this

I like the word servant, it levels the playing field , keeps us all as equal, humble. When rewards are handed out in heaven it'll be the weak and the insignificant who shine the brightest. That dear sister who seemed to timid to speak but holed up with God in prayer and moved mountains while on her knees. That brother who worked over time because he had a burden to support missionaries or other ministries and working overtime was the only way he could do it. They are the great ones. (I posted this early in the thread, figured it was a good place to repost it) Blessings in Christ, where obedience is the only real guage of spirituality.Bro. Daryl

Rahman wrote:Brother Zeke you wrote;"When we finally all meet one day, I think that we are going to be surprised as to those who were actually seeing correctly"In the presence of God Himself i'd be surprised if anyone even cares ... So whose presence are we in now? :-P 8-)

A really good book to read would be "Visions beyond the vail" I'll need to look through my books to find the author though. It's an awesome look at heaven.

Brother Zeke you wrote;"So whose presence are we in now"?Hmmmm ... maybe i misunderstood your initial post ... :-( i thought you were refering to when we're all together in glory is when we might be surprised, in the actual literal "presence" of God, like in Paul's "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" ... We're all in God's presence now, but not how we're gonna be, literally reigning with Him as kings and priests forever ... Man what a time! ... :-D

Call it what you will, but the suspicision remains. All this defending seems contrary to whatever a prophet is or was in scripture, just don't find it there. If it must keep being brought forth as such, then by the same token the warnings must as well, there are far too many other brethren being caught up in all this not to.This is not so much defending as it is clariying some things which have been mistaught or misunderstood for a long time. Prophecy is not always necessarily predictive nor spoken for all men to hear. It's a lot more involving than that. I'm learning that every day.

servant is a good word, we also need to be sure of exactly what our service is, or what our role in serving is. I do have a question though, why is it that if someone says "I'm an evangelist" or exhorter or prayer warrior or teacher noone or few people ask questions but the minute someone says "I'm a prophet"...just curious, if this has been answered please disregard that part of the post.

In a much wearied talking with our Lord last night about so much of which is contained in the civil but contentious contents of this very thread ... eventually i heard Him clearly say to me ... "Just be" ...Main Entry: bePronunciation: 'bEFunction: verb1-a : to equal in meaning : have the same connotation as. b : to have identity with.c : to constitute the same class as. d : to have a specified qualification or characterization.e : to belong to the class of.2-a : to have an objective existence : have reality or actuality : LIVE.b : to have, maintain, or occupy a place, situation, or position.c : to remain unmolested, undisturbed, or uninterrupted.d : to take place : OCCUR.e : to come or go.To all my fellow saints out there who believe themselves "called" by God to the ministry that men will not allow us to even define ourselves by without it being turned upon us as a negative ... Stop discussing ... stop defining ... stop defending ... and "Just be" ... In Jesus blessed name ... Amen ...Br. R ... :beard:

To all my fellow saints out there who believe themselves "called" by God to the ministry that men will not allow us to even define ourselves by without it being turned upon us as a negative ... Stop discussing ... stop defining ... stop defending ... and "Just be" ... In Jesus blessed name ... Amen ...the defense rests.

I think that the church needs true prophets and prophetesses, however in America (I have to use america since as I understand its not as bad in other countries) that position seems to be very much abused or even mishandled? The ones who claim to be one use it often for manipulation and to be seen of men. Now I know there is the geniune in any given church. However, in penecostal or charismatic circles it has been so misused, especially in the major media, that most of the church is gun shy when someone proclaims to be a prophet. I believe that character opens up the way for a prophet on a more local level and if that individual has some acclaim in his or her local fellowship they may even begin to be more widely accepted not only in thier own fellowship and that on larger scales but also in other fellowships, word gets around. In the church however most people I know who have claimed to be prophets refuse to have anything they say judged and that's not scriptural. Now for those on this board who may consider themselves to be prophets---my comments are not directed at you.