Dont believe the lie

It must break the heart of Jesus to see how the church today regards His Coming, many today have this idea that Jesus said "lets all be nice to each other and it does not matter whether we are pre, mid, post or anything else” lets all just be nice and it will all work out in the end, but how far from the truth is this.
When the Disciples asked Jesus this question as to when He was Coming look at what Jesus first words were.

Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Jesus first words were do not be deceived, it is very easy to understand what Jesus was seeing as we see it happening today.
JESUS SAID DO NOT BE DECIEVED, that means don't believe the lies of men.
Massive deception, Jesus said to not listen to the deception of men.
There are many today that believe in the Lie and Deception that the Rapture is happening this year, oh what a Lie.
Why is it that men will believe a lie instead of the words that came out of the mouth of Jesus?
Jesus told us when He is Coming.
Look at what Jesus states which is the Truth with no deception
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus could not make it any clearer, He is Coming after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs in the sky after the Tribulation.
Dont believe the lies of false prophets and false anointed
Jesus is the Truth
You wont find any verse that says He is Coming before the Tribulation, no not one.
Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour of His Coming after the Tribulation but we will know the signs and when we see those signs then look up as he is at the door then.
Jesus has Prophesied when He will Come and He will Come just as He prophesied, Do not believe all of the lies and deception that are tickling peoples ears
DONT BELIEVE THE LIES BELIEVE THE WORDS OF JESUS
Mat_24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS NOT SOME, NOT ONE, ALL
JESUS WILL NOT BE COMING THIS YEAR, YOU WILL SEE.

I would encourage every believer worldwide to purchase a new book by Joel Richardson called When a Jew Rules the World.
It will both challenge and humble the reader

Every Gentile believer should meditate on Romans 11 and see that we were grafted into the Olive Tree and it supports us
we do not support it.
Jesus is the Root of the Olive Tree, Jesus is the Root of Israel, Jesus is the Root of the Commonwealth of Israel that we have been grafted into. Jesus is the Root of Jew and Gentile.

Oh God please have Mercy on us for our Arrogance and Pride and for what abomination we have done.
Please forgive us so that we may not also be cut off of the tree, please have mercy on us and Israel the apple of your eye.
Jew and Gentile in Christ.

Your thread needs to titled, "When a Jew Rules the World" by Joel Richardson! More people would read it.

I listened to the author on youtube and I will be purchasing the book.

Here is the book on amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Jew-Rules-World-Really/dp/1938067711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427289242&sr=8-1&keywords=Joel+Richardson+When+a+Jew+Rules+the+World

Here is a short take on what he said in one of his interviews:

*******************
Once you articulate that God is done with Israel, in fact that it was the will of God that that nation was permanently dispersed, it’s natural for Christians then begin to attempt to carry out what they believe to be the will of God. So throughout history, you’ve had Christians that were persecuting, killing, running Jews out of Europe.

As I’m sitting there in Iraq, looking at these Muslims and Christian refugees, living in the mud, I’m thinking to myself 400 years ago these refugees were Jews and instead of ISIS, it was the Christian church.

And when we embrace this idea that God has purposely dissolved the people of Israel then it naturally leads to the effort among Christians to participate in dissolving them as a people.

I’m convinced... that every seminary across the nation, across the world, should have a mandatory class where they teach Christians the long, bloody, painful, gruesome history of Christians persecuting, hating, killing and massacring the Jewish people. I believe that if seminarians were taken through that class, replacement theology, super-secessionism would radically be diminished, in fact there’d be very few that would embrace it.

*******************

I have no dog in this fight, because I could really care less one way or the other, but:

1) people who teach a pre-trib rapture are not false prophets or liars solely on that basis. They may be mistaken ( believe they are, but I don't believe in a post-trib or mid-trib rapture either) but that does not make them false prophets or liars.

2) A person who teaches that the Church has "replaced" Israel is not a liar or false prophet on that basis. They may be mistaken (I am on the fence on this issue) but that does not make them false prophets or liars.

False prophets and liars teach something as true THEY KNOW to be false. Big difference.

I have to agree with Todd. This is not a foundational issue. The second coming of Christ is nonnegotiable. It is a foundational doctrine. If you deviate from this teaching you deviate from Christianity. What the second coming looks like or how or when it takes place is up for debate. I have been taught a pre trib rapture my whole life. It is only very recently that I have even heard other point of views. Now I think I may not agree. But just because I do not agree doesn't mean my pastors and everyone who believes pre trib are false teachers. I like the saying in the essentials unity, non essentials liberty, and in all things charity!

What interested me, not so much in budgies response (sorry budgie!), but what the author of 'When a Jew Rules the World' said in one of his interviews. Replacement theology's logical end very well could be a branch of Christianity actively seeking Israel's demise.

I was raised in the church to believe a pre-trib rapture and also a form of replacement theology but not to the place of actively seeking to hate Israel. It wasn’t until I moved away from that particular church, got a computer and began searching and actively studying the different viewpoints of the end times that I began to move away from pre-trib. FYI: I didn't start out to prove pre-trib wrong, I was just excited to find other view points on the subject.

The only thing I’ll say about false prophets and teachers in this area is that the major machine of Christian TV supports pre-trib and actively squashes another other view. I, too, believe the second coming of Christ is non-negotiable but not the pre-trib view!

So are these people who are in control of what the rolls down to the church... are they intentionally liars? Maybe, maybe not; but they ARE intentionally squashing the average Christian being educated in this area and choosing for themselves. But then the scripture comes to mind, "We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers in high places.” Just thinking out loud in the wee hours of the morning!!

God bless you all,
Lisa

Lisa-

I agree with you. I honestly believe that there are mainstream Christian leaders who will not change their view publicly on certain topics (despite possibly an internal honest sense that they may be wrong) because their ministry is so entrenched, etc.

For example (and this is ONLY an example) what if Joel Rosenberg listened to a teaching regarding replacement theology and he began to feel that perhaps he was wrong. It would be exceedingly difficult for him to publicly indicate he was having misgivings about this issue.

The same could be said if John Piper began having misgivings about Calvinism or John MacArthur began having serious misgivings about his cessationism, or David Jeremiah on pre-trib rapture. It would be very difficult for them, at this point to come out publicly about their misgivings because because much of their ministries have been pushing or defending these doctrinal points.

That is why the Bible teachers I like best are those that lay all the views out there for consideration(at least when it comes to non-essentials). They may state why they believe a certain view is correct according to the scriptures, but in non-essentials are not dogmatic.

I also wanted to clarify my point regarding the rapture.

I believe the only rapture will occur at the 2nd coming. I do not believe in two rapture events. So this rapture is relatively short lived.

Hello TMK
It is a sad reality today that there are so many varying theories and doctrines within the Body Of Christ and these only cause divisions rather than Unity, Paul was one that brought correction to the Body so that right doctrine would unify, there can only be one Truth, it is vital for us all to humble ourselves to the Word of God and not to the Theories of man, this includes myself.
If pride or the fear of loss of reputation is stopping one from turning from false teaching to Truth then we are the same as the Pharisees, we are white washed tombs.
There can only be one Truth to the Return of Christ, I do believe the more we listen and believe exactly what Jesus states the more we will be in Truth.
Jesus told us what will happen before He Comes and He even told us to learn the Parable regarding those signs so that we may know when to look up and lift our heads and when our Redemption is drawing near.
Jesus whole focus in Matthew 24 and 25 was on His literal and physical coming to this earth to establish His Kingdom as prophesied.
Jesus spoke of it as a literal and singular event.
May we walk each day in Christ because we do not know when our life will end, and may we walk in Christ as the Day of His Coming draws near so that we may lead and guide others in Truth not deception.
Those that teach are accountable for the sheep.

Budgie...

"WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS NOT SOME, NOT ONE, ALL
JESUS WILL NOT BE COMING THIS YEAR, YOU WILL SEE."

Are you saying Jesus is coming this year? It's at the end of the original post.Just wanted you to clarify.

"WHEN YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS NOT SOME, NOT ONE, ALL
JESUS WILL NOT BE COMING THIS YEAR, YOU WILL SEE."

Are you saying that Jesus is coming back this year?

Hi LoveMeekHope,
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.Although I dont agree with a Post Trib view I dont think at all that they are liars or that they are false Prophets because of their belief.
They are brothers and sisters in Christ.I think where part of the problem is that genuine "FALSE PROPHETS"(for the want of a better term) tend to preach a pre trib doctrine.That doesnt mean that the doctrine is valid or invalid.
It just means it muddies up the water in the sense that if the false prophet preaches pre trib it must be wrong kind of thing.

I do say however that our end time belief whatever it maybe has an effect on our church doctrinal view.If I believe in pre trib I may have a tendency to "once saved always saved" and if I have a post trib believer I may have a tendency towards believing "I can loose my salvation"
If I believe in post trib I may have a tendency towards believing in "presecution presecution doctrine" and if I have a pre trib view I may have a tendency to "no hardships at all God wants us to be millionaires doctrine"
Yours Staff

I agree. I believe in all of them.
I believe the word of God.

1. Rev. "Come up hither" I believe when John is called up at the end of chapter 3, it is the pre-trib rapture, the rapture of the Church.
2. Mid trib when the 144,00 Jewish evangelist are taken. I believe this is the last group rapture.
3. When the two witnesses are taken up in Chapter 11 and the saints of God follow Jesus back to the earth.

These three raptures are well documented in the book of Revelations. They are prophecy, but described.

I am interested to know the origin of the "John, come up hither" equals "rapture of the church" teaching. It is one reason -- of quite a few -- I actually rejected the pre-trib position: no one could adequately expose from Scripture why these two things are equated.

Said in love, but loving skepticism.

Corrie ten Boom on those preaching a pre-tribulation rapture -

"There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution . . . .

Hi StevenHale,
You know everytime their is a conversation on this subject some one brings up Corrie Ten Boom's beliefs on the tribulation.
Although she is a great christian example her belief's are experiential doctrine and based totally on what she was going through not on the bible.Her belief may however be correct although I dont hold to it but her view is based on her experiences not on the bible.
Many followers of God suffered Persecution which led to death in the bible and many did not,so to base our Tribulation view on what is going on around at a particular time in history is not proper exegesis.
For Instance Billy Graham preached successfully for decades, did not die physically for his faith in Christ or was not persecuted in the way Corrie Ten Boom was so can I say on the basis of Billy Grahams experiences that their will be no persecution or that we will not go through the great tribulation.NO I CANT and in the same way I cant base my view of the tribulation on Corrie Ten Booms Experiences and say we will go through the tribulation
The Corrie Ten Boom arguement is a red herring in the debate and sheds no light on the subject in my opinion,
Yours Staff

Hi
Again the arguement that a doctrine is only a few hundred years old
is not proper exegesis.it is t he word that has to be consulted.Pre tribbers will argue that its only a few hundred yrs old is only an old wives tale.Also the closer we get to the end the more will be revealed(in line with scripture)to advise and encourage us.
After all until Peters vision the body was unclear whether the gentiles were unclean or clean.Their will be aspects of Jesus coming that we will know more about than the infant church in judea,
yours staff

markuskiwi wrote:
I would also briefly like to make some comments about the second post: "When a Jew Rules the World".
This troubles me a bit. Yes Jesus the Messiah is the son of David etc. BUT afterwards "God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names " (Phil 2:9, NLT) He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Lamb who was slain, etc. In His Kingdom there is neither Jew nor Greek, ... for we are all one in Christ Jesus. He should not be compared anymore with the old system, He deserves the highest honor!
"No one compares to You, my King
No one compare to You, my Lord
No one compare to You, my Friend"

It could be about more but that is my simplistic take on it, if I'm wrong, someone please correct me!!

And also, I used to be an ardent post-tribber but it does seem that Jesus has already come "for" a few million Christians and they are just lying in wait for the Resurrection!! Only difference is I am alive for the moment awaiting His Resurrection!! thank you Jesus!!

God bless,
Lisa

Hello sonsigns
Your question to me was
Are you saying that Jesus is coming back this year?

My reply to this is No Jesus is not Coming back this year
Jesus has Prophesied all of the events that must take place before He returns.
Jesus prophesied that the beginning of sorrows or the birth pangs will happen before He comes, Jesus prophesied the Tribulation must come and end before He comes, Jesus Prophesied that the signs in the sky after the Tribulation must happen before He Comes.
Jesus said that when we see all these signs and the signs in the sky after the Tribulation then He will be at the door, then we are to look up, then we are to lift our heads as our redemption draws nigh, but of that day and hour of His Coming no one knows, but Jesus said to learn the parable of the tree for these signs, as you see the new growth on a tree as summer draws near So it will be when we see all these signs and we know He is Coming.
Jesus tells us Truth, Jesus said "see I have told you so beforehand"
Jesus will not be Coming this year, trust in the words of Jesus not man.

I am glad you are reading the Book When a Jew Rules the World, I am finding it to be one of the best and most challenging books to read and do believe every believer should be reading this book.
In the same way Daniel wept and cried out in Repentance for what Israel had done against God, every believer should be weeping and repenting for the most selfish and tragic sins done against the broken off branches of the Olive Tree.
Paul was right, us Gentiles should not be arrogant or boast against the Natural branches that were broken off, if God had never been severe against the disobedient unbelieving Israel branches then we disobedient and unbelieving gentiles would have never known His Loving kindness and would have never become the children of God.
We should show the same Mercy to Israel that God showed us so that they may also come back into the family and then the Resurrection of the Dead.

Sadly many today believe doctrines of men with no scriptural verse to support the lies.
Again Jesus tells us exactly when He Comes, in the Book of Revelation which is His Revelation Jesus tells us exactly when He comes and it is found in Revelations 19 and 20, Jesus even tells us that this is the time when the Bride has finally made Herself ready, she is clothed in the Righteousness of the Saints, He cannot Come any earlier because the Bride was not yet ready.
There is no Truth at all in the false doctrine of when John himself is instructed to come up to heaven that it is the rapture of the Church to heaven, Jesus Himself said to not add or take away from what He has said in the Book of Revelations this come up is not even the rapture word. It is a false doctrine not supported in scripture.
The whole Prophecy of Revelations was given to His Servants as Truth not just some of it.
Paul said that the Rapture would not take place until after the Resurrection of the dead which happens when Jesus Comes, when the Angels are declaring,when the Trumpet of God is sounding.
Jesus said that the First Resurrection of immortality takes place in Rev 20, Jesus Himself taught a Doctrine that there is only two Resurrections, a Resurrection of the Just and a Resurrection of the unjust. Paul and John and God teaches the same doctrine of two Resurrections.
Let us Trust the words of Jesus not of ear tickling men.
I will trust in the words of Jesus alone, if He states that it is the First Resurrection and that the Bride has finally made herself ready then it is Truth.
Matthew 24 Jesus tells us clearly when He is Coming and it is after the Tribulation has ended.
He could not make it any clearer.

Jesus could not have made it any clearer, there will be wars, rumours of wars, kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, pestilences, earth quakes in various places, many shall be killed for his sake, many shall be offended, many shall be deceived, the gospel shall be preached to all of the nations, the Tribulation shall come, after the Tribulation has ended then there will be signs in the skies, when we see all of these signs then we know our redemption is drawing near, then lift our heads, then look up, but of that day and hour of His Coming after we see all those signs we do not know, but like Jesus said "learn the parable of the tree and when we see all these signs they are like new leaves growing when summer is near and SO likewise we will also know that His Coming is near.
Jesus is not a liar, He has Prophesied what events will happen before He Comes, we will know when to look up and we will know when He is Coming and we will be ready and watching when the Time is Ripe.
Let us all trust in the clear words of Jesus not a doctrine that has no single scriptural support.
Paul Prophesied what must happen before Jesus comes and gathers us to himself.
The whole Bible is full of Prophesy that is declared by God and these Prophesies will be fulfilled.
The First Resurrection will be the First Resurrection as Prophesied and blessed are those that are in the First Resurrection they will Rule and Reign with Christ.
The rapture happens after the Resurrection takes place as Paul so clearly described.
There is only one harvest of the Just, Jesus Himself was the First of Fruits and later the whole Crop will arise at His Coming.

Hi Budgie'
The problem with the post is not that you believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture wrongly in my opinion but that in essence you are calling other spirit filled christians liars because they dont support your view.This isnt a clear cut issue and has been debated over the centuries.So even though I dont believe that it is a Post Tribulation Rapture I dont think Post Tribbers are telling lies or that the devil is behind the doctrine.So I think saying that people with the alternative view are either "Liars" or are decieved and believing "a lie" is more wrong than actually really believing a lie.
In support of the alternative view Jesus said that "It would be as it was in the days of Noah and Lot"
They will eat drink marry etc UNTIL Noah got into the Ark and Lot got taken out of Sodom.There was no judgement until God's People were safe.Jesus pointed out that everything was totally normal with the world including sin "UNTIL" God's peop;e are safe.Then the judgement came immediately after God's People were taken out no gaps in time immediate.

The most important thing about the tribulation debate is this:WHAT IF YOU ARE PREACHING THE WRONG VIEW YOURSELF?
WHAT DAMAGE HAVE YOU DONE?
Yours Staff

markuskiwi wrote:
Yes i listened to one of his interviews and some of his teachings before i wrote my last post. Because i disagree with him on MANY points, he would therefore obviously also disagree with me.Just one of his comments; "instead of ISIS, it was the Christian church. "
Jesus Himself builds the true "Church " or Ekklesia (Mtth 16:18)! Many true believers suffered for the Gospel and should not be compared with ISIS !
But then we have a false system an false prophets etc.
If it is paramount for him that Jesus gets the highest honor then he would probably have chosen a different title for his book.

For those who have not listened to any of Joel Richardson's interviews, I'm going to put his comment in perspective....

Joel Richardson said in one interview:
And the danger of replacement theology is that once you hold that God himself has permanently dissolved the nation of Israel, that He Himself is punishing them for their disobedience; that it really becomes natural that you as a Christian would work to carry out the will of God. And unfortunately through much of church history Christians have, not all Christians, but a vast number of Christians have done just that.

I was just in Northern Iraq visiting with the refugees in the camps and looking at these people, they’ve left everything behind, they’ve seen their relatives massacred, they are living in the mud, and I’m looking at them and I’m saying 400 years ago these refugees were European Jews and Isis were the Christians that were massacring Jews across the region, they were confiscating their property, they were pushing them from one city to another. And that‘s a strong comparison, but it’s not an over exaggerated comparison. This happened for well over a 1000 years. Christians really need to be aware of how bad and how bloody it has been.

Joel makes a valid point that this replacement belief came from the early church writers of John Chrysostom and Martin Luther and it was essentially that "because God hates the Jews, we Christians should also hate them and desire their blood."

I have not read the book yet but by listening to his interviews on youtube, I can see where he is coming from. Maybe not to you, but to me, Joel is warning Christians to be careful of where replacement theology will lead. History repeats itself and if we are not at the top of our game in our relationship with Christ, we will be on the bandwagon (again) to persecuting or even killing the Jews all in the name of God.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Lisa-

you wrote: "I do not believe that Joel is diminishing Believers being persecuted by Isis, he is trying to prove a point that 400 to 1000 years ago, followers of Christ did the exact same thing to the Jews that are being done to them in Iraq."

Followers of Christ were not killing Jews back then, so he is setting up a straw man. Organized religion may have been, but not followers of Christ. Followers of Christ don't murder people. There is no instruction in the scriptures whatsoever that disciples of Jesus Christ should murder Jews, or anyone else for that matter.

According to me, he may have been setting up a straw man but he did not say 'followers of Christ,' I did. I should not have put words in his mouth. He did say, 'the church,' (little c, not capital c).

I changed it to 'the church' instead of followers of Christ.

God bless!!
Lisa

I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth either. But he SEEMS to be saying that true Christians shouldn't hold a "replacement theology" view (even if that is the correct view) because certain non-Christians who call themselves Christians might persecute Jewish persons as a result of that view.

That seems a tad like pragmatism.

TMK,

I see your point and we already have people calling themselves christians (white supremacists) hating the Blacks as well as the Jews.

Maybe it's much more than the simplicity I see it in but I see this book as bringing this topic to the forefront in order for the true followers of Christ to be careful we don't get involved in that

Personally, I believe that we are spiritually 'one new man' as Ephesians speaks of!!

God bless,
Lisa

TMK,

what is replacement theology to you?

LoveMeekHope,

what is replacement theology to you?

Hi Lisa-

I am not sure if I like the term "replacement theology."

However, what I believe regarding Israel is summarized in the outline here:

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/text/israel.pdf

From the link: http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/text/israel.pdf

Dr. Camille Honig, a Jewish authority, having studied Jewish types and communities on five continents, declared, "it is sheer nonsense....as well as unscientific to speak of a Jewish race.”

Encyclopedia Britannica,
1973, vol.12, p.1054, states:
"The findings of physical an thropology show that, cont
rary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race.”

This is my position: The Lord knows what He is saying about Israel.

ROMANS 11

Rom 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
Rom 11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."
Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
Rom 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 Just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
Rom 11:34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
Rom 11:35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
____________________________________________________________

EZEKIEL 36

Eze 36:1 "And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 36:2 Thus says the Lord GOD: Because the enemy said of you, 'Aha!' and, 'The ancient heights have become our possession,'
Eze 36:3 therefore prophesy, and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Precisely because they made you desolate and crushed you from all sides, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you became the talk and evil gossip of the people,
Eze 36:4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD: Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains and the hills, the ravines and the valleys, the desolate wastes and the deserted cities, which have become a prey and derision to the rest of the nations all around,
Eze 36:5 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey.
Eze 36:6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations.
Eze 36:7 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: I swear that the nations that are all around you shall themselves suffer reproach.
Eze 36:8 "But you, O mountains of Israel, shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to my people Israel, for they will soon come home.
Eze 36:9 For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown.
Eze 36:10 And I will multiply people on you, the whole house of Israel, all of it. The cities shall be inhabited and the waste places rebuilt.
Eze 36:11 And I will multiply on you man and beast, and they shall multiply and be fruitful. And I will cause you to be inhabited as in your former times, and will do more good to you than ever before. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 36:12 I will let people walk on you, even my people Israel. And they shall possess you, and you shall be their inheritance, and you shall no longer bereave them of children.
Eze 36:13 Thus says the Lord GOD: Because they say to you, 'You devour people, and you bereave your nation of children,'
Eze 36:14 therefore you shall no longer devour people and no longer bereave your nation of children, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 36:15 And I will not let you hear anymore the reproach of the nations, and you shall no longer bear the disgrace of the peoples and no longer cause your nation to stumble, declares the Lord GOD."
Eze 36:16 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity.
Eze 36:18 So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it.
Eze 36:19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them.
Eze 36:20 But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, 'These are the people of the LORD, and yet they had to go out of his land.'
Eze 36:21 But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
Eze 36:23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Eze 36:28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.
Eze 36:30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.
Eze 36:31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations.
Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
Eze 36:33 "Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt.
Eze 36:34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by.
Eze 36:35 And they will say, 'This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.'
Eze 36:36 Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the LORD; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it.
Eze 36:37 "Thus says the Lord GOD: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock.
Eze 36:38 Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."
____________________________________________________________

EZEKIEL 37

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones.
Eze 37:2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, you know."
Eze 37:4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD."
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
Eze 37:8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
____________________________________________________________

To Highlight:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity.
Eze 36:18 So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it.
Eze 36:19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them.
Eze 36:21 But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
Eze 36:24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
Eze 37:3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, you know."
Eze 37:11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

...."It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name",...

" What interested me, not so much in budgies response (sorry budgie!), but what the author of 'When a Jew Rules the World' said in one of his interviews. Replacement theology's logical end very well could be a branch of Christianity actively seeking Israel's demise."

-Adolph Hitler quoted Luther's anti-semitic statements to defend his genocide of the jews.

-Replacement theology can lead to questions and malevolent ideas that may criminalize the existence of modern Israel, justifying the sinister plots and actions for their total annihilation.

One should read the whole book before one comments on the heart of what Joel is revealing.

The very warning that Paul gave to the Gentiles in the Book of Romans in regards of their attitudes to Israel of boasting and of pride and of pointing the finger that was completely at odds with Gods heart, this very warning that Paul gave was the very place where the Church itself has stumbled.

Look at just some of what the Christian Leaders wrote against the Jews from the last 1900 years.

John Chrysostom a Christian leader in 380 A.D stated this jews are gathering choruses of effeminates and a great rubbish heap of harlots, the jews condition is not better than that of pigs or goats.
What is this disease, the festivals of the pitiful and miserable jews, the feast of trumpets, the feast of tabernacles, i wish to drive this perverse custom from the church right now, although they had been called to the adoption of sons, they fell to kinship with dogs.
This is what martin luther wrote in 1543 ad
What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of jews, first their synagogues should be set on fire, secondly their homes should be broken down and destroyed.
Passports and travelling priveleges should be absolutely forbidden to the jews.
Let them be driven like mad dogs out of the land
Throw brimstone and pitch upon them, if one could hurl hell fire at them, so much the better and this should be done for God and for Christianity, in order that God may see that we are Christians.
John calvin wrote the jews rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that the be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone

Joels cry is that we Gentiles would realise the mistakes that have been made in the history of the Church and that we would repent and teach others to Love these very people of God and show them love no different to any other Gentile.

I encourage every believer to first read this beautiful and challenging book and see the heart that God has for this people, If it had not been for their stumbling which by the way was prophesied many years earlier, we Gentiles would have never been grafted into the Church.

Look at what Paul says

Rom_5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom_11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Let us never forget the Mercy of God to us.

Hello Staff member, I have never called any believer a Liar, what I have stated is exactly in line with what Jesus stated to His Believers when they asked Him of the Clear evident sign of His Coming, Jesus said do not be deceived, many will come and deceive many, this deception that Jesus is talking about is a Lie that is being taught too many against the very words of Jesus.

Sadly today many ask everyone except Jesus Himself on the clear evident sign of His return.

It is not my view that I present but the very words that came out of Jesus mouth to his own disciples.

Jesus said see I have told you so beforehand.

The disciples and I ask Jesus what is the clear evident sign of His Coming.

In Matthew 24 Jesus answers this question with Truth, Jesus states all of the clear signs of things that happen before He Comes, Jesus states that the Tribulation will end and after the Tribulation ends there will be clear evident signs in the sky, the sun darkened, the moon not give its light the stars falling from heaven, and then Jesus said He will be Coming.

Jesus Himself then stated that of that day of His Coming after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs in the sky no man knows, no man knows that day or hour, Jesus himself then stated to learn the parable of the tree and that when one sees all of these things then look up, then lift up your heads as Jesus is then at the door ready to come.

Jesus could not make it any clearer, He stated with his own mouth that He is Coming after the Tribulation has ended, after the signs are seen in the skies.

No where in scripture will you find Jesus stating that He is Coming before the Tribulation, nowhere in scripture does Jesus say to look up and lift up your heads because he is at the door except after the Tribulation and after the signs.

Jesus stated that the person living in that generation will see all of these signs and will know that Jesus is Coming and will be ready and will know when to look up, that person is to look up and lift his or her head as their redemption draws near.

Give me one verse in scripture where Jesus states that He is Coming Before the Tribulation and before the signs in the skies..

You wont find one.

I will trust the Doctrine of Jesus and will not believe the lies of men no matter how seductive they may appear to man.

Jesus is the Truth and His words out of His mouth I will trust.

Who will you believe?

I know I am teaching exactly from the words of Jesus, it is not my doctrine, I have aligned myself with his very words, and Jesus words align with Paul.

Brethren do not be deceived in regards to the Coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him this will not happen until the Apostasy and the revealing of the Son of Perdition takes place whom Jesus will destroy at His Coming.

Jesus destroys the Antichrist when He comes.

TMK wrote:
I certainly don't want to put words in his mouth either. But he SEEMS to be saying that true Christians shouldn't hold a "replacement theology" view (even if that is the correct view)...

by Clarence H. Wagner, Jr. wrote:
Perhaps you have heard of the term Replacement Theology. However, if you look it up in a dictionary of Church history, you will not find it listed as a systematic study. Rather, it is a doctrinal teaching that originated in the early Church. It became the fertile soil from which Christian anti-Semitism grew and has infected the Church for nearly 1,900 years.

from http://replacementtheology.org/
A typical definition of "Replacement Theology” can be paraphrased as such: "Israel has been replaced by the Christian Church, so the promises and prominent position once held by God’s chosen people are now held exclusively by the Church.” Such a view is false.

I looked up that link you gave me about all the covenants but couldn't decipher how that had anything to do with this but that was probably just me not being able to put two and two together!!

I will not pretend to understand all of the in's and out's of 'replacement theology,' I didn't look into it until this thread started.

I wouldn't even had replied again except what interested me was what you wrote: "(even if that is the correct view)." What are your views on this topic? How do you tie the link of the covenants with replacement theology together?

I think you know my history on SI, I'm not trying to argue with you here at all, just trying to understand where you're coming from on this.

God bless,
Lisa

My understanding is that the Church is the true "Israel of God" in the New Covenant. In other words there isn't one set of promises for Israel and a separate set for the Church. It's just the Church and born again Jews are part of the Church. If they are not born again, they need to be. Some persons believe God has some sort of special promise for the Jewish people and that even someday there will be a re-instituted temple system including animal sacrifices that God will honor. This is untenable to me personally.

I don't see how this belief in any way whatsoever would justify anti-semitism, any more than it would justify prejudice toward ANY unbeliever.

This will be largely influenced by whether one is a preterist or futurist and to what degree. Preterist thought largely eliminates from future events any Israel sprcific prophecy. When combined with Paul's "Israel of God" language describing the church, the futurists and Zionist Christians invariably use the phrase "replacement theology" to describe them. It can be a home to anti-Semites, but not if they are true Christians.

Futurists largely believe that the antiChrist/tribulation prophecies are yet unfulfilled of course. So, the upshot of all of the language about temples and sacrifices and Judea and fleeing to mountains, etc., tend to make them believe that Israel remains a separate covenant people for whom God has a unique plan. Any talk of the church as the Israel of God bristles their feathers up and draws the replacement theology label as an epithet.

Why can't the Bible just speak for itself? The church is the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16. God has not rejected Israel; He has included the Gentiles into Israel's promise....that IS Christianity. One promise. One people. One covenant. One spiritual nation.

Does God have a plan for Israel? Yes. Paul said it. Romans 10:1, 9:3, 4; 11:1. See also Acts 5:31.

The plan? Save them through the blood of Jesus. Same promise. Same people (in Christ, the holy nation, the royal priesthood), same covenant.

Beyond the plan He has for all the redeemed Scripture reveals no particular promise to Israel in the flesh in the eschaton. Now, is it possible that we should understand the MEANS of His plan in real time "on the ground", as it were, to include the actions as seen through futurist-viewed-interpretations of the prophetic passages? Yes. Does that negate the recognition of natural Israel as having its own unfulfilled covenant with God? Yes. Does it put the quietas on Israel-hocking sales pitches by televangelists? Oh, that it would! It should!

Does it counter the Word of God? If so, I do not see where.

Well said, Tim. I certainly agree.

Never thought I would say this but.... where's Krispy when you need him??? (Hehe miss u krisp).

Like I said before I'm not going to pretend I know everything about this and that wouldn't even be a thimble full, but I'm at work right now and can't cite anything.

I think Joel might lean toward post trib but I'm just going on what I think he said in one of his interviews!!!

As for thought now, I am going to have disagree with you. :) no surprise there, right? Haha

God bless
Lisa

I did not read all the posts on this thread but enough that confirms a reality when people get to discussing eschatology. There is vast disagreement among those who do believe Jesus is returning. It is the "when" where the conflicts, disagreements arise.

Presently I am reading Revelation - again. I learn something new every time I read it. This always leaves me in awe and wonder - and I love it! This comforts me, especially when I read about wars/conflicts in the world. I learn that conflicts/wars will be the norm - Believers will never be able to rid the world of them; I learn Christians will be over come by the beast, they will be killed; I learn God will allow some to beheaded so he will have some to rule with him when he comes to set up his kingdom. I learn the anti-Christ will be able to perform many marvelous miracles/works - and that I need to limit my awe with the marvelous works performed at the hands of men.

There is so much practical teaching there that one can take to heart, learning from it. It will comfort, strengthen. Somehow I suspect the devil is working to disrupt this learning, edifying process by getting people all in a stir about the specifics of Jesus second coming.

My understanding.

Sandra Miller

What is called Replacement Theology is totally harmless. Just because certain men who believed in this persecuted Jews, does not mean all who believe in it will end up hating Jews. I have not read the book nor heart the author Joel, but based on certain posts, I hear that he is saying this theology will bring hatred to Jews. I do not agree with it at all, I am in fact a strong supporter for Jews, will hide them if required like how Corie did!

First and foremost, Jews are no longer Special in NT. Why? Because the dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles is now broken. We do not need to consider them any superior nor inferior. They need Jesus equally like how we need Jesus.

In NT, the Church is God's chosen one, not any physical nation. God still protects Israel but that is because Old Covenant is only obsolete but not forgotten totally.

Let us neither look up to Jews nor look down to them.

Staff wrote

"It would be as it was in the days of Noah and Lot"
They will eat drink marry etc UNTIL Noah got into the Ark and Lot got taken out of Sodom.There was no judgement until God's People were safe.Jesus pointed out that everything was totally normal with the world including sin "UNTIL" God's peop;e are safe.Then the judgement came immediately after God's People were taken out no gaps in time immediate

The point Jesus was trying to make is, there will be no sign given to unbelievers about the appearance of Jesus. They will be busy with their work, but for us who are compared to Noah and Lot, God will give clear sign and tell us about his coming.

Bible says that righteous Lot was persecuted in Sodom, similarly Noah was also mocked for preaching righteousness to a stubborn people. So Godly people will suffer persecution before the coming of Jesus. In fact the verse that you quoted supports Post trib rapture.

I do not agree great tribulation is God’s wrath. Is there any Biblical verse to prove it? I am not challenging you, but want to know whether this view is Biblical. If so then I am wiling to change my view.

You know everytime their is a conversation on this subject some one brings up Corrie Ten Boom's beliefs on the tribulation.
Although she is a great christian example her belief's are experiential doctrine and based totally on what she was going through not on the bible.Her belief may however be correct although I dont hold to it but her view is based on her experiences not on the bible.
Many followers of God suffered Persecution which led to death in the bible and many did not,so to base our Tribulation view on what is going on around at a particular time in history is not proper exegesis.
For Instance Billy Graham preached successfully for decades, did not die physically for his faith in Christ or was not persecuted in the way Corrie Ten Boom was so can I say on the basis of Billy Grahams experiences that their will be no persecution or that we will not go through the great tribulation.NO I CANT and in the same way I cant base my view of the tribulation on Corrie Ten Booms Experiences and say we will go through the tribulation
The Corrie Ten Boom arguement is a red herring in the debate and sheds no light on the subject in my opinion,
Yours Staff

You are placing a very good logical argument, I loved reading it. Hence thought I will post my counter argument.

Now based on your argument, to be consistent with it, you should believe that what Paul wrote to Timothy 2 Tim 3:12 is due to his personal experience of being persecuted. Hence it is not a valid scripture, because there are many Godly men like Billy Graham who have not suffered any persecution. Can we do this? Do you see the flaw in your argument?

Now Billy, would have definitely suffered persecution if he was true to God in what he preached. Either we do not know about his persecution or he did was flexible! These are 2 other possibilities that we have to consider before making a statement out of his experience.

Now when Communist first came to China, the Chinese Christians were never told about persecution, all their missionaries from West preached them Pre Tribulation rapture. Now when they saw really persecution, they blamed the missionaries for not preaching them the truth. If they were preached the truth, they would have been ready. You may ask me how they could have made themselves ready for persecution. But there is a difference between somone striking you from back and striking from front. Attack from back takes us by surprise and adds shock to pain!

I seriously believe that people are free to believe in Pre tribulation rapture but should not preach the same because there is a great danger to stand unprepared during persecution, which is promised to all believers.

Hi Sree
You said it yourself
Quote:
They will be busy with their work,

How could they busy with their work just prior to Jesus Post tribulation appearance?
Jesus made two clear points
1. Until
2.Everything is normal before Judgement

Everything else including your points you have to read into the text

What is your verse to prove its not God's Wrath?
What has your mind so convinced its not Gods Wrath?
Yours Staff

Hi Sree
I didnt say that Billy Graham did not suffer persecution hence my logic remains.Billy Graham did many things that he was bashed over.
Whether the Chinese Were or were not told about persecution is irrelevant to whether the trib is post or pre or non.
If they were taught correctly about persecution it has absolutely nothing to do with the great tribulation.
I believe that pre trib Christians who do desire to live a Godly life do get persecuted and understand clearly and experience Persecution as part of the course.Pre tribulation Godly Spirit Filled Christians have no problem with excepting persecution.This is just a red herring arguement in my opinion.
.From 2 TIM 13 I can turn the tables on you and say that you are saying their is no such a thing as Pre tribulation believer who desires to live a godly life.
You are saying that Pre tribulation believers dont experience persecution and that they are ignoring basic christian teaching that some of us may die for our faith
The doctrine of the rapture has to be taken from scripture not experience.Someone cant make up doctrine from whether they experienced alot of persecution or a little persecution or whether they were prepared for persecution or not prepared for persecution.

Your Quote:
But there is a difference between somone striking you from back and striking from front. Attack from back takes us by surprise and adds shock to pain!
Could you explain this one with some scripture.

The gospel of "Persecution" as preached on SI when it is taken to the extreme Is another "Gospel" there is no grace in it.
Dont feel like you have to counter my mind blowing logic! lol
On a foot note isnt funny that we will be persecuted for only desiring to live a godly life even though at this moment we may not actually living a godly life but would love to be living a godly life
Blessings Staff
ps I guess my main point for posting earlier is that both post trib and pre trib effect our view on alot of other things and in particular I find post trib believers quick to point out the excesses of pre trib believers without addressing the excesses of the post trib.

The most significant breakdown in this worthwhile debate--and it is worthwhile-- is the inability of the advocates of any particular view to state a systematic Scriptural explanation of it without attacking the weaknesses or doubts about another of the views.

It is this inability that quickly sidetracks us from sustaining the exposition of Scripture and spins us down rabbit trails and (oftentimes) personal attacks. NOTE: NOT saying anyone is attacking here on the thread. But frustration wicks run very short on this topic and I wonder if it is not because we run aground so fast in our own support of our own views.

We would all do a favor for our own selves if we laid down our views on it completely, prayed earnestly for the Spirit to remove all bias or favor we have toward any view, and read afresh exclusively those Bible believing, Spirit filled men who hold a view opposite the one we espoused. We could perhaps see what God would do to out views, minds and hearts on this.

We will have to unite on this soon IMO.

They will be busy with their work,

How could they busy with their work just prior to Jesus Post tribulation appearance?
Jesus made two clear points
1. Until
2.Everything is normal before Judgement

I never said everything is normal. It is your perception from the words of Jesus. Even Jesus did not say that everything is normal, otherwise he contradicts his own statements on the beginning of Birth pains. How can scripture contradict itself? So definitely the point of comparing with Noah and Lot is not saying everything will be normal. Otherwise there is so much contradiction in scripture.

So the point of comparing with Noah and Lot is to prove that the unbelievers will have no idea about the coming judgment. During Noah time there was so much violence on earth, I am sure many unbelievers suffered hell on earth due to the violence that they themselves once supported. So it was not a normal time, that time can be compared to a war zone of current age, where nothing will be normal. So only thing common between Noah and Lot time judgment was the fact that people were not aware of the upcoming judgment upon them. Simple point that Jesus made, we do not need to twist the scripture to make it say something that Jesus never intended.

Read the scripture with context, if you take it out of context then you will easily twist the meaning,
Matthew 24:36-"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark.

If you read from verse 36 it is clear that Jesus is referring to Noah story to make the point that no one will know about the time of his coming, especially the unbelievers will not have a clue. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE.

Similarly in Luke 17: 26, it you read from verse 22, Jesus is referring to Noah and Lot in the context of the time of his appearance. He warned them not to be deceived by anyone saying 'He is coming here or there'. So the time of his coming will not be known just as the time of judgment was not known in Noah and Lot period.

If you read scripture with context then you will never be deceived by such false teaching. It is the attribute of Satan to break scripture and take it out of context, just like how he tempted Lord Jesus.

.From 2 TIM 13 I can turn the tables on you and say that you are saying their is no such a thing as Pre tribulation believer who desires to live a godly life.
You are saying that Pre tribulation believers dont experience persecution and that they are ignoring basic christian teaching that some of us may die for our faith

You did not understand the logical counter argument that I put, because your answer not even close to addressing the point I made.
If Corie made her statement based on personal experience then even Paul wrote this verse based on his personal experience. If you can assume Cories statement was biased by her personal experience then even you have all rights to assume that Paul's verse in 2 Timothy is also based on his personal experience. There are many Americans who think they live a Godly life but suffered no persecution, unless they considered their creditcard dept as persecution! So for them easily Paul is speaking some nonsense based on his experience and not applicable to them. If you assumed one thing then you have to assume another as well. Do you at least now get my point.

Whether the Chinese Were or were not told about persecution is irrelevant to whether the trib is post or pre or non.
If they were taught correctly about persecution it has absolutely nothing to do with the great tribulation.

It is clearly relevant. All the Pre Trib teachers of west who influenced Chinese Christians made them believe that they will never suffer persecution. If Pre Trib believer believes in some kind of persecution then why not great persecution? The origin of PreTrib view is not at all scriptural, there is no scriptural proof given for it. In all the discussions had so far in SI, I have never witnessed one scriptural proof at all. All Pretrib supporters have done is to protest against all Protrib scriptural proof, they only said that they do not agree with Post trib scriptural proof. So the origin of PreTrib view itself is based on general hatred to persecution, it is too live a happy Christian life on this earth. How will you expect these teachers to teach new Chinese believers on persecution? Hence they have to take the blame for the attack.

The gospel of "Persecution" as preached on SI when it is taken to the extreme Is another "Gospel" there is no grace in it.

No one preaches any persecution other than what the Bible clearly warns of coming. Persecution has to be preached else we run at the risk of being taken by surprise when persecution comes. The Chinese believers are beautiful example for the same.

What is your verse to prove its not God's Wrath?
What has your mind so convinced its not Gods Wrath?

Great tribulation to my understanding is the one that will bring the antichrist out to rule the world. He will persecute Christians. There is nothing mentioned in scripture according to me that shows it is God's wrath on all the people including believers. TO me it is an added statement. I have never read or heard about it other than few PreTrib people speak it out in SI.

How cans someone give a proof of how something is not there is scripture? One can give a proof of something being present in scripture. If you believe Great Tribulation is God's wrath then give a scriptural proof of the same, otherwise it is a lie.

Now if Great Tribulation is not God's wrath then it should be a tribulation that brings persecution on believers to a level unheard before by AntiChrist himself. God permits these things to happen, and shorterns the day for the same of the elect.

Hi Sree,
First of all why have we to "assume" anything.Paul was very aware of previous scripture and regularly thought from previous scripture.It didnt have to be experential doctrine.
Also their is a difference between Paul who is accepted as canon and Corrie who is not.Pauls words are gospel literally.
Or do you think we can start a newer version with the gospel according to Corrie?

It is obvous that you are partly basing your Post trib view on experience rather than the word.How could what happenes to Chinese Christians Nowadays dictate what the bible says from two thousand plus years ago.You are saying that because false teachers thought the wrong thing to Chinese Christians that the rapture is Post Tribulation.False teachers always teach the wrong thing but whether they do or not does not effect doctrine.
Are you really saying that all Pre Tribulation believers "dont desire to live Godly lives"?
All the Pre tribulation believers I know understand Persecution perfectly and some would expect die for their faith (great persecution) and desire to live Godly Lives.
If you desire to live a Godly life then you understand Persecution.
Again the Post Trib believer wont disassociate persecution from the great tribulation.One is something that happens all the time sometimes lesser and sometimes more and the other is specific period of time set by God to end this Age that will have persecution in it.

My Main Concern is the way the two views effect our other theological views.If you are pre trib and take it to the extreme you can be do anything you want(only if you discard alot of scripture about right living).Alot of false teachers are attracted to this view but this does not make the view unscriptural.You cant base your views on What American Tv Evangelists say and then react to the opposite of that. If you are post trib and take it to the extreme you will be storing cupboards of beans and cowering under the bed afraid of your shadow.Their is no grace in preaching persecution all the time.Its another Gospel that has bewitched people.Their is a time and a place for teaching about believers persecution but not in the way SI believers do.Instead of having conferences about the Jesus Christ and his grace the devil has cleverly replaced it with persecution conferences.This may be the real lie here that taken to extremes both views are way of the mark.
The origin of the pre trib view has nothing to do with persecution except in the mind of a post trib believer.
I would go into the wrath of God scriptures but my original intention of posting was not to defend the Pre Trib view but to point out that if we are being fair minded we cant call other Spirit Filled Christians Liars because of their tribulation views.
Yours Staff

Hi Sree
Its not perception Jesus Clearly says that normal daily life was going ahead eating drinking marrying buying selling.
They clearly understood that Noah was saying Judgement was coming but they didnt believe him.The problem wasnt that they werent told but that they didnt believe.Lot also told them what was right and wrong but they didnt believe him.
Everything was normal,they were told that Judgement was coming but because of their unbelief they were caught by surprize and unprepared.If they had believed they would have got on the Ark and they would have left Sodom or God would have rescued them as well.Judgement comes upon them as a surprize because of unbelief.Its not because of witness that they were Judged.
Judgement does not come until the Christian is safe that is the point Of "UNTIL".He was NOT talking about persecution he was talking about Judgement.
Now that "Safe" might mean being prepared for a long time like Noah or missing out by the skin of your teeth like Lot,it may mean being protected here on earth or it may mean being raptured.
yours Staff

The more one looks at Matthew 24 with simplistic eyes and ears the more clearer it becomes, it was never intended to be such a deep and theological writing that can only be understood by some theological professor.

The Disciples asked a simple question and Jesus answered back with a simple answer, Jesus told the disciples and He also tells us exactly when He will Come back.

Jesus Himself stated that after the period of Tribulation has ended, there will be clear and evident signs in the Skies, the Sun, Moon, Stars and Heavens.
Jesus then said that was the time He was Coming.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Pretty simple and pretty clear, Jesus then said that no man knows the day or hour of THAT day that He is Coming after those events BUT Jesus states the following.

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Notice Jesus said all these things and this includes the signs in the days after the Tribulation has ended.

Don't believe anyone who says Jesus is Coming before these signs, Believe Jesus not men.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

There is much deceptive teaching today that speaks against the words of Jesus our Saviour.

Believe Jesus and His simple teaching.

Jesus does not say anywhere in scripture that He is Coming before the Tribulation, He Clearly States sometime After the Tribulation has ended He will Come and gather His Chosen Ones to Himself from the 4 points of Heaven and 4 points of Earth.

Paul said brothers do not be deceived for Jesus will not gather Us to Himself until after the Apostasy and after the Son of Perdition is revealed, Paul said that Jesus destroys the Son of Perdition when He comes, so does Daniel, so does John.

I will Trust Paul, Jesus, John and Daniel, Who will you trust?

Jesus is the Truth, He told us so beforehand when He comes and it is certainly not before the Tribulation.

Who will say that Jesus is a Liar? certainly not me, I will Trust in His simple words.

There is not one verse in scripture where Jesus states that He is Coming before the Tribulation, No Not One.

Jesus will fulfil every Prophecy that has been declared.
There is not one Prophecy that states that He is Coming before the Tribulation, No Not One.

Please Brothers and Sisters believe the words of Jesus.

But it is so convenient to just explain away the extremely simple and straightforward statement of Jesus that "this generation shall not pass away" before these things occurred. How do you think his disciples standing right there understood that statement, especially when THEY are the ones who asked Jesus "when will these things be?"

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

Jesus that "this generation shall not pass away" before these things occurred. How do you think his disciples standing right there understood that statement
______________________________________________________________

I am told that history informs us the early Believers remembered these words of Jesus so that when Titus besieged Jerusalem, they fled. It is said that no Christians died in that conquest.

Prophecy students will tell you a lot of prophecy has dual meanings. I suspect they are right. Consider the ones given about Jesus' sufferings - they had immediate application and future application as well.

Prophecy is so complex that it will draw a serious student to it again and again and again and each time there is some new inspiration. I suspect God made it so to keep us wondering and trusting.

My understanding. And I love the book of Revelation. Learn something new every time I read it! And....I am left thinking, "WOW"!

Sandra

It is easy (and convenient for certain views) to say that Jesus meant a dual meaning. There is no indication of this, especially since he was answering a question posed by his disciples.

Brother TMK,
That's a good point/question... Perhaps they thought the same thing the hearers of the words "if you tear down this temple I will raise it up in three days" thought while our Lord stood in front of the newly completed temple thought,... Tho it was only later that the faithful understood His actual meaning. So it stands to reason that prophetic principle could apply here as well and could point to a still future time when the things before mentioned in this discourse had/were occurring.
Also while studying Romans, in chapter 11 the analogy of the two olive branches was introduced- natural Israel and wild Gentiles- and it occurred to me that in Revelations 11 the two witnesses are called the two olive trees (perhaps now the branches fully grown into trees) which led me to consider that the two witnesses are not individuals but in fact Israel and the Church,... This would seem to be an interesting yet palpable interpretation, does anyone here on SI have any thoughts on this?
All are welcome!

Hi JFW-

In regard to Jesus saying "destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days" only the most naive and perhaps stupid person would believe he meant that literally.

But when he at a different time talked about not one stone being left standing it was also pretty clear he meant that to be taken literally.

Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD in Mt. 24, which was the end of the Jewish temple and therefore incredibly significant to those to whom he was speaking. We think we have to make it mean something more because we don't appreciate the significance of what happened on 70 AD. Most Christians are dismally educated on this topic. When you read the account of Josephus and the horrors of the siege of Jerusalem you realize how horrible this great tribulation was, greater than the world had ever seen.

In regard to the two witnesses, I certainly don't believe this refers to Moses and Elijah breathing fire out of their mouths, so there are alternate interpretations.

TMK
Yes brother indeed it (the siege and destruction of the temple) was like nothing before it in that it was truly a horrendous occasion for those subject to it. It is unfortunate that most are unconcerned with the history of our faith and therefore ignorant of the historical facts recorded, however it is a choice and none can do for us what we must do for ourselves.
I meant no disrespect by offering such a simple answer to you dear brother and only to suggest that they (the hearers) were entirely subjective, while we are the beneficiaries of history and as such enjoy a greater objectivity. For me personally when I read for example Matt 24:34 account of Jesus saying these words you mention, it seems that He could not be, at least not exclusively, the 70 AD events as in vs 14 He says this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached into all the world for a witness and then the end shall come. Are you suggesting that occurred by 70AD?

Hi JFW-

I think it was preached to the entire Roman world by 70 AD (which is pretty miraculous- and what I think Jesus was referring to in John 14:12- about the disciples doing "greater works than these"). This was the general use of the term "world" in the NT. there are several uses of the word "world" in the NT where the entire earth is clearly not meant (i. e. American Indians, pygmies, Chinese , etc).

Brother TMK,
Interesting, and when I looked at the word "world" used in Matt 24:14 indeed you are correct in that, tho it is only used 15 times in scripture, in can in fact be limited in meaning to the Roman Empire. This requires of me a fresh look and further study as your perspective is scripturally valid an as such deserves sincere consideration. Thank you!
Another question comes as I read further in this passage,...
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Do you see this having also been fulfilled in the same time frame?

Hey JFW-

There are preterist/partial preterist explanations of the verse regarding the sign of the the Son of Man in heaven, although I do not find them wholly satisfying. So to be honest I am not sure how to deal with that verse. Although Josephus does describe certain heavenly signs, like a blood moon, etc.

My best guess is that Jesus is using apocalyptic language like is seen in the book of Revelation and some of the Prophets. (e.g., see Is. 19:1).

Hi TMK,
On what I am about to say you can take or leave as you see fit as it is only my experience.I never really thought about signs or studied about them or had any kind of opinion really but the last few years I have had dreams from God about signs.
I never told anyone until last week when I had an extrodinary dream about a sign.I in a van with a few christians and as we drove we came a across a group of people in wonderment of something in the sky and we heard them gasp in amazement.The we drove past another group gathered the same thing.I say to the driver pull over quickly their is something going on and as we pull over I look at what they are looking at and in broad daylight hanging in the sky their is a white scissors about the size of a full moon.It doesnt move with the rotation of the earth just stays there in position.In the dream i had an understanding it was from God.
However on another occasion I had a dream of another sign at night where the stars started spinning and making patterns for all to see and in the Dream I said that this is demonic.My conclusion at the moment is that some signs will be from God and some will be counterfeit from the enemy.I do believe that these signs will actually happen and are not figurative or metephor.I now dont believe these signs will be weather patterns or storms or natural occurences.
I wonder what effect they will have on the population of the earth?
Yours Staff

TMK
Thank you for your honesty brother!

Staff-

I never dismiss dreams that I know are from the Lord. I have had 3 in 50 years and they still affect me almost daily.

I do think that the sign(s) accompanying the second coming will not or cannot be mistaken for natural phenomenon. People, believers and non-believers alike will be on their knees or on their faces.

Tmk you stated about the phrase this generation will not pass away. When Jesus spoke this phrase he was speaking to those at his time but it also speaks to those in a future aspect. The Greek word has a few meanings and uses. It can be used as the word this and also the word that. When one uses both meanings it becomes a lot clearer and simpler. That generation will see all these things happen and will know and look up, the final completion of all things fulfilled before Christ comes. The disciples saw some of those things happen and remembered the words of Jesus, Christ did not come at the destruction in 70ad and there was no clear anti Christ at 70 ad, it is still a future event for disciples to see

Jesus instructed the disciples and U.S. Readers to read the book of Daniel to understand the truth of the tribulation, none of the truths spoken of in Daniel were completely fulfilled in 70 ad. No 7 year treaty no anti Christ no Jesus coming and destroying the antichrist, no abomination of desolation, no Christ coming and destroying the antichrist, it is till to be fulfilled as Jesus himself, Paul himself and John declare the prophecy of revelations and Daniel Joel Mathew etc are still to be fulfilled. Jesus destroys the antichrist who causes the abomination at his coming, the antichrist only has power for 3 1/2 years . Certainly was not 70 ad

Brother TMK,
The scriptures state that "as it was in the days of Noah" and "as it was in the days of Lot so shall it be when the Son of man returns". When I take these passages along side the parables of the "ten virgins" for example it seems to me that most will in fact not be paying attention and will in fact be caught as a "thief in the night",... Hence the admonition of Jesus in Matthew 24:32-51 which seems to say the opposite of your last statement about people being aware of the signs of our King's return.

Well, I was actually taking about the signs AS he was coming, not before his coming.

Ahhh okay now I'm tracking with you:)
Yes and Amen for indeed the whole world will see, know and bow before the Glory of our returning King!
Hallelujah!!!
...and please forgive me dear brother for misrepresenting your thoughts, my sincerest apologies.

TMK,

Partial preterism, as I understand, holds that the only prophetic event left to occur is the physical return of Christ and His kingdom here. Of that coming, there are no signs as the partial preterist views the witness of Scriptures.

Not that our psychological need for the closure of a story matters 😏, but at least the partial preterist view has an end of the story whereas full pret. essentially has the order of things continuing on until a cosmic geological "lights out" of the end of Earth or of the Sun or whatever other astronomically extinguishing happenstance comes along, except that we individually move into eternity with or without Jesus as the case may be.

It is certainly God's prerogative to do as He will. The arguments of scholars are frustrating. None satisfy, IMO. I confess that I find partial preterism, to say nothing of full, is not hopeful. It may actually be, if Part.Pet. is true, that the overarching sweep of technology delivers us to a point of longevity and knowledge that relieves us of any burden to know any thought called "faith".
A squishy commitment by the King to assert Himself and His Way in His creation is what we are left to believe, it seems to me. The power of human advancement, corrupt and evil as it is, is more than a challenger to His authority. It possibly holds a superior moral promise of deliverance from a host of worldly ills; after all, whatever our motive, we do press forward toward an orderly management in which future generations may realize a genuine albeit temporal peaceful, non-deprived and healthy lifetime. In that scenario, why believe? What is regeneration in a world where sin is so managed that it isn't recognized? This is not a picture of a world deceived. It is a world programmed to live with His non-return. It would only be deceived if the Gospel mattered. A world that waits on some open ended ethereal promise of His return, or only on some individualized accounting to Him for our lives, is a world where the Gospel has nothing to say. It already said what it had to say to a much earlier generation, and we were simply born too late.

If preterism is true, I personally think we are insane for believing Him at all.
Not that He must come soon. But, that the character of Jesus as we take His Word is unassailable only of He is Personally going to bring an end to sin in the Earth and redeem creation from it. Preterism removes the promise of His coming. Or, to put it in the preterist's language, it looks back on His return as accomplished fact but looks now and in the future onto a world that is wholly unaffected by it.

I know that we pin our knowledge of God on solid exegesis and textual study. Yet, the knowledge of God transcends it. And, either we know Him by His spiritual witness in us as well as by His Word, or we are left with the preterist dilemma of choosing between a hopeless self-congratulating "knowledge" or a witless self-indulging experiential life. I reject this forced choice. The character of Jesus is not this way. I know Him personally. I know Him through His word. If my knowledge is genuine, then I respectfully submit that preterism cannot be.

Edit:

I found this statement by a preterist brother --- and my preterist brothers ARE brothers --- but I felt tears well up in my eyes.

"People will NEVER get involved in government, law, the arts or economics unless they understand that Jesus accomplished His mission and that the future is worth obtaining and changing."

So (big, heavy sigh here), Jesus, God the Son, emptied Himself of His divine glory, took on flesh, in the likeness of sinful flesh He suffered and became obedient unto death on a cross by those who contradicted God and were hostile to Him, He took my sins upon Himself, the punishment of my transgressions, quietly and with no defense against the earthly powers ..... all so I can get involved in government, law and arts and economics with a nod and a prayer toward Him so that I can obtain and change the future.

If this is our faith, we are miserable and we may as well be Epicureans.

The New Testament apologetic and witness revealed openly for the first time that the Messiah's advent to Israel would be twofold. He would come and accomplish His redemptive work but leave and ascend on high before coming again. It seems scriptural and even logical to believe and assume that He will return to Israel at His second advent. It's said that Israel no longer has any prophetic relevance in the plan of God and all prophecies regarding Israel are now spiritually fulfilled in the church etc. WhY then will Christ return to Israel from whence He left? Are we suppose to believe that His return to Israel is of no special importance or relevance. If Israel is supposedly persona non grata at this point then what of Christ's return? I'm not the standard of insight that all opinions should revive around but it has been my experience that the question of the location of Christ's return is one that replacement/fulfillment/expansion theology seems to skirt around. I hardly see it addressed openly except maybe to say that Christ will return to "the earth." I still continue that if you had asked the early church where they expected Christ to return to what would have been the answer you would have gotten.

As described in Luke 4:14-21, Jesus read the first part of Isaiah 61:1-2 in the synagogue in Nazareth on the sabbath day but he stopped before He read about the Day of Vengeance. Jesus fulfilled the Acceptable year of the Lord when He came the first time but the Day of Vengeance remains to be fulfilled. Vengeance belongs to Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah to carry out and He will do it but the time has not yet arrived.

More unfulfilled Bible prophecy:

2  And it shall come to pass in the last days,
That the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be destablished in the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And fall nations shall flow unto it.
3  And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
And he will teach us of his ways,
And we will walk in his paths:
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4  And he shall judge among the nations,
And shall rebuke many people:
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into mpruninghooks:
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war any more. - Isaiah 2:2-4

The Book of Job is probably older than Genesis and the oldest book in the Bible.

In Job's "confession of faith", Job declares a prophecy that remains yet unfulfilled:

For I know that my Redeemer lives, And that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: ”ŽAnd though my skin is destroyed, yet in my flesh shall I see God. - Job 19:25-26

"Job was taught of God to believe in a living Redeemer, and to look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come." - Matthew Henry (1662-1714)

More unfulfilled Bible prophecy:

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
That the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be destablished in the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And fall nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say,
Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
And he will teach us of his ways,
And we will walk in his paths:
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations,
And shall rebuke many people:
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruninghooks:
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war any more. - Isaiah 2:2-4

One of the problems turn in properly interpreting these verses are that the replacment field of theology has changed the meaning of Jersualem to mean the church. So that interpretation is that when you see the word Jerusalem in these verses it really doesn't mean the city of Jersualem but supposedly actually means the church. Thus any prophetic future for Jerusualem is nullifed and replaced. I agree though with the way you see it.

Thanks, docs.

If you love humanity and the planet, part of the good news is the hope that destructive, murderous wars will cease and that better days will come.

If you love Jesus Christ and the honor of His Name, then part of the Good News is that Jesus will obtain the honors that were denied Him when He came to first time to accomplish Redemption. All nations will worship the King, the Lord of Hosts.

The hope for the end times is not so much "I'll fly away" but rather "Jesus will return and stay."

hi turn-

I am not sure if your posts are directed to me, but if so you seem to have the mistaken idea that I do not believe in a yet future 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

I do believe that, and a future resurrection. But I do believe the 2nd coming will be immediately followed by the creation of the new heavens and the new earth (while the saints are raptured) and after which we will return to reign with Christ on the new earth, and not just for 1000 years but forever.

Thanks you also turn. I like you view that it's not so much "I will fly away" but "Jesus will return to stay." It doesn't seem unscriptural or illogical to me that He will return to the place from whence He left. The same stream of theology that has changed the meaning of Jerusalem in the above verses to mean the church can also give you a explanation as to why the nations have already beat their swords into plowshares and are already learning war no more.

The more I study the words of Jesus and Paul the more I realise the importance of what they are saying when they say (do not be deceived)
Jesus said do not let anyone planaō you or in other words don't let anyone cause you to roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, deceive, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.

This was Jesus reply to the disciples when they asked about His Coming.

Jesus said this because He knew that there would be many false teachings that would arise regarding His Coming.

Look at what Paul states in 2 Thess 2 about the Coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Christ.

Let no man exapataō you or in other words to seduce wholly: - beguile, deceive you.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (((the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,))) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul said to remember.

Do we listen to the words of Jesus and Paul who are so strongly wanting us to listen to them and not be deceived or do we listen to men and begin to wander from the Truth.

Jesus will be Coming after the Apostasy and after the revealing of the Antichrist and after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs in the sky, just as Paul and Jesus Prophesied and when Jesus Comes He will destroy the Antichrist.

Praise God for His Word is true and Just.

Amen budgie!

budgie wrote:
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (((the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,))) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Amen, brother, amen! When I first came across this verse, like most on here I couldn’t believe that Christians might suffer so for a few months, I struggled and went half way with Mid-Trib!! :) But I still had too many questions. Then I did a study on suffering...

1 Peter 4:16 says, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.”

2 Tim 2:11-12a, "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him, IF WE SUFFER, WE SHALL ALSO REIGN WITH HIM:”

Phil 1;29 "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, BUT ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE;”

AND Phil 3:10 "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and THE FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERINGS, being made conformable unto his death;”

I am of a belief that satan has twisted the word ‘suffer’ to the church, so Christians won’t believe that we are to be here and be taken out as not to suffer, especially the American church, when the Scriptures speak plainly on the matter of suffering. But that’s just my two cents brother!

God bless,
Lisa

I recommend a reading of Matthew Henry's commentary of 2 Thess 2.

Yes it is very true, the church in the rich English speaking countries today is so different from the Church when it first began after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Jerusalem, we really do not understand the concept of persecution and true suffering for declaring our love for Jesus.
They were burned alive, fed to lions, cut in half, legs and arms torn off, beheaded and much more.

What we see today done by ISIS to Muslims and Christians is what the church endured on a daily basis.

One thing that amazes me is that there is Muslims today being saved in Syria, Iran and Iraq and becoming devout Christians and their hearts cry is to forgive ISIS for raping and killing their daughters, wives, mothers etc
Their hearts cry is to see ISIS soldiers saved and to know Jesus.
These people are rejoicing in the Joy of the Lord

Saul killed Christians before he met Jesus and Jesus showed him love and Paul became a gracious tool for Jesus and for us gentiles.

Are we willing to take up our cross today and surrender all so as to see the world saved or to we only think of ourselves as if we are all that matters to God

Would we show love to ISIS and have the heart of God to see these blinded people saved

God give us your heart for the lost instead of a fleshly desire to escape from this earth

Thanks TMK for your advice on Matthew Henrys commentary on 2 thess 2

I enjoyed reading and he presented it well, very thought provoking.

We must be prepared for what is to come and Trust in Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

He will Come as He Prophesied

We know exactly when He will come as He prophesied and what events will happen before He comes, we just don't know the exact day or hour of His Coming after those events happen.

But we know very clearly when He will be at the door, and we know when to lift our heads and we know when to look up and we know when our Redemption draws near.

We know to learn the parable of the signs that Jesus mentions so that we will not be in the dark, He will not Come as a thief for those who are aware of the signs.

Thank You Jesus for telling us beforehand.

The harvest is ripe and the labourers are few, God help us to be Labourers regardless of the cost.

I have just been spending much time in Matthew 24 and have seen how much has been taken out of context today.
Here is an example
If I were to say (when is Jesus Coming does anyone know?)
There are some that would say
No one knows the day or hour of His Coming, he can come at any second.

But I did not ask what day or hour He would come, I asked when is Jesus Coming.

Jesus told us His disciples the exact details and order of events before He will come, Jesus told us the last signs that will be evident before He Comes and these signs are by God Himself.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus then said that of that day and hour of His Coming after those signs are seen no man knows.

But we know to look up then and we know He will be at the door then and we know that our Redemption draws near then.,

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Many are familiar with the phrase don't put the cart before the horse yet we seem to ignore this same principle in regards to scripture and the words of Paul.

Jesus is the shining truth for us in regards to the Resurrection.

When Jesus was raised from the dead it was just that, he was raised from the dead immortal yet it was some time after this that he was actually raptured.
The act of Resurrection is completely different to the act of Rapture (to be seized)

Jesus said this to Mary

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus was Resurrected but had not yet ascended or raptured to heaven.

We do know that Jesus was Raptured (harpazo) to heaven because the Bible tells us in Revelation.

Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We are told the same in acts

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Why do I mention the above?

It is because the Act of Resurrection and the Act of Rapture are very separate events.

The word harpazo (rapture) is used in 13 places in NT and only once in regards to the Resurrection to come of those in Christ.

Paul was raptured and put in prison, Satan try's to rapture the word of God from our hearts.
Phillip was raptured to another location.

None of the above scenarios have anything to do with Resurrection.

Paul tells the Believers what sequence of events will take place before the Rapture (seizing)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 (THEN) we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (RAPTURED) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Let us not put the cart before the horse

There is much to happen before the Rapture especially the Coming of Jesus, the Shout, the Archangel, the Trumpet of God, the Resurrection.

Do you remember what Paul also said about Jesus Coming and our gathering together to Him.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Remember when Jesus told us He is Coming

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again don't be one that puts the Cart before the Horse.

Brother John,

I believe that the Bible teaches a taking away of the Church of Jesus Christ, before the tribulation. The way I have heard the rapture preached is in the book of revelations, John is told to come up hither. "John Come up here."

Now what was taught was that when the rapture happens, the Archangel will call the Church by name, other wise all the people on Earth will go up. IT was used as an example.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, the Bible actually has 7 raptures in the Bible.

1. Enoch was the first to be rapture.

2. Elijah was the second

3. Jesus being the third after his Resurrection.

4. Phillip when he is translated from preaching and baptizing a eunuch in the desert and then he is found in the city of Jerusalem.
5.The rapture of the Church as described by the Apostle Paul in Thessalonians
6. mid trib rapture of the 144,000 Jewish evangelist and those that were saved in that time.

7. the two witnesses in Rev. Chapter 11.

I know that you said that you don't believe in a taking away of the Church, but maybe this will clarify a little and entertain you some.

Now I have been in a few denomination that have taught the taking away of the church before the tribulation. Baptist, Southern Baptist, and the Assembly of God, plus word of faith non-denomination church, I once attended.

Can you find an audio or some literature where I can learn a little bit about why there is no rapture or taking away of the church? and also maybe a church denomination that I can visit.