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Is it the Last Days? A Video Presentation I Recently Made

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sermonindex

video and audio links are at the bottom of this page

Hello fellow Sermon Index members.

My name is Jason Holman and I have been a member of this site since July of 2003. However, I originally logged in under a different name (PJ).

At the time I signed up (in 2003), God was beginning a radical work in my life, and some of the material at Sermon Index was used to spur that work along.

If you are a Sermon Index "old timer,” you may remember a post I shared during that time in my life. I titled it "Keep the Fire Burning!” For a few years, Greg kept the post as a sticky in the general topics section. If you would like to see that post, you can view it through the following link. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=340&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

For the record, I am not trying to bring up an old post in order to revive it (it wouldn’t do any good anyway because the thread is locked). But instead, I am only trying to make myself a little bit more familiar to those who visit this site. My hope is that if you know me just a bit, you may be a little more willing to watch or listen to the recording I am trying to share.

The video is 40 minutes long (actually 43, but you can skip the last 3 minutes if you like). And I realize that in today’s world, 40 minutes is a whole lot of time to request of someone, especially if the person requesting the time is a complete stranger.

So hopefully by adding this bit of an introduction, I have made myself just a little bit less of a stranger to you. And hopefully you will now be just a bit more willing to give me the 40 minutes of your time I am requesting.

Please don’t let the title of this recording fool you (Is it the Last Days?). I assure you that this is not just another message about how close we are to the end of days. Instead, this recording covers a much more important topic.

At first it may seem a little dull and even predictable; however, despite any initial boredom, I hope you will try to give this message a chance and hear it out until the end.

Thank you very much for your time.

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sermonindex

Brother,

I suppose my question would be if the institution of the Church is wrong then all or almost all of the speakers on SermonIndex were a part of these larger denominations and a part of the problem? Whether it is early church fathers or the history of the church in general, it has been clear that God has desired people to gather in physical locations and not just being a part of the spiritual universal Church.

I have recently spoken to some people that hold to the belief that anything with the word "Church" is wrong because its not the best translation of the word Ekklesia in the greek. My personal observation is there is mostly hurt feelings in these cases of people who have tried to fit into Church experiences in the West and had a hard time and therefore created a theology or standard that would nullify all the Church except for those individuals who are really seeing the truth and not, in most cases gathering physically with other believers.

I am glad to hear Sermonindex has been an personal encouragement to your growth in Christ and staying close to Him.

O
Oracio

Hi brother Jason, here's my two cents for all it's worth.

Points of agreement:

God’s Word does indeed teach that we have been in the last days since the first century AD, as you clearly pointed out from several scriptures.

There have definitely been many false teachers creeping into many so-called "institutional” and/or "denominational” churches, leading many professing Christians astray with damnable heresies. All the warnings about that in God’s Word are definitely applicable today just as much as when they were first penned. However, this would also apply to many "non-institutional” gatherings of Christians both in the past and present.

Within many so-called institutional churches there has definitely been a false gospel preached, a false gospel that has held many professing Christians under a delusion. The false gospel I think you are alluding to is a false gospel that says all you need to do is "accept” Jesus as your Savior and try to be a "good Christian” by doing good "churchy” things. Some refer to it as easy-believism, cheap grace, and hyper grace. It is a false gospel that leaves out genuine biblical repentance.

Points of disagreement:

You referenced 1 John 2:27 to make the point that we do not need any human teachers of God’s Word today due to there being so much deception. I don’t agree with that interpretation because I believe it contradicts other portions of God’s Word which clearly validate the gift and ministry of teaching and teachers of God's Word (Rom. 12:7; 1Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11; 1Tim.3:2).

You seemed to imply that all so-called institutional churches preach a false gospel. That is simply and clearly not true. I can point out quite a few so-called "institutional churches" that preach the true biblical gospel of Jesus Christ and do not water it down or compromise it at all.

You seemed to state clearly that all those who are involved in a so-called institutional and/or denominational church are under a serious delusion and are not following the Lord with all their heart. You seemed to state that they are all in some kind of rebellion and under the judgment of God. You stated that they are all in a path leading them to certain destruction and that they must wake up in order to escape it. I think those kinds of statements cause unnecessary division and hurt within the Body of Christ.

There was a time in my walk when I felt similarly but afterward I realized I was wrong. I realized I was holding on to hurt and bitterness in my heart toward other Christians and churches because they did not "do church" as I preferred. I realized I myself was under an "anti-institutional church” delusion. I had a very divisive attitude toward other brethren.

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sermonindex

I don't have the time to watch the video but based on Greg and Oracio's comments it sounds that the video is strongly anti-denominational. I'm writing my thoughts because they are different than the others and hopefully compliments them.

I do have some agreement that this all could be 'from a hurt heart' but I'd like to encourage you. Why? because God will work with your convictions. He will lead you and guide you and it seems to me that God is building you up internally.

I'd like to compare this with a patient and doctor relationship.

Many people/patients today don't know a thing about their body, they don't listen to it, they don't educate themselves, they just pay for a doctor to 'take care of it'. As if the doctor has all the answers and having a doctor will prevent all the issues.

This is grave for the person because the doctor isn't omniscient (all knowing) and doesn't know all the details unless you provide it to them.

In contrast, a patient who listens to their body, educates themselves, asks a lot of questions, or for lack of a better phrase 'takes personal responsibility for their health' will get BETTER care than the negligent patient.

The saints are the patients. The doctors are the teachers/preachers (within and without denomination ties).

Jason, I'd strongly encourage you to seek God. Seek out who He is. It sounds like to me God is building your foundations right now and they are critical because *your choices*, *your beliefs*, and *your education* lies in *your* hands, not the pastor's, not a denomination, not anyone but you alone.

God will ask *you* for an account for *your* words. Dig your well deep. Listen to people but 'test all things'. I feel like God is building you up and telling you 'it's okay to test the truth because truth will remain like pure gold'.

I pray that you will be blessed by this.

P.S. *'s are for emphasis. Think italics. Not shouting. Think slowly and firmly saying those words.

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sermonindex

To Greg and Oracio,

Thanks for taking time to watch the video.

I intend to reply to your comments, however, I do not currently have the time to make a thorough reply.

I work for myself as a handyman in Oklahoma, and we have recently had a whole lot of rain. The rain is a great thing for this drought stricken state, but it has caused me to get way behind schedule (I do a whole lot of yard work). So now that the sun is shining again, I have to play catchup. However, rain is once again in the forecast so I should soon have a little extra time on my hands.

Thanks for your patience - Jason

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sermonindex

Greg Said

Brother,

I suppose my question would be if the institution of the Church is wrong then all or almost all of the speakers on SermonIndex were a part of these larger denominations and a part of the problem?

I will do my best to respond to this directly and clearly. However, by doing so, it is possible that I may lose my welcome to post anything in the future at your site. For the record, I would rather not lose my welcome to post here, but I realize that that is really up to you. This is your forum, and if you don’t want me to post again after this, I will certainly respect you request.

I am afraid that my introduction may have caused a little bit of confusion. For I said, that when God began a radical work in my life years ago, he used some of the material at Sermon Index to spur that work along.

I said that because that was the truth. There were a couple of incredible truths that God needed to bring to my attention, and God used a couple of the messages at Sermon Index to bring these truths to my attention. Had I not been a part of Sermon Index, I am confident that God would have still brought these truths to my attention. But it was ultimately your website that was used as the mechanism to bring those truths to light.

That is the truth, and I am very thankful that these particular nuggets of truth were present at Sermon Index. However, that is all that you will ever find within any message presented from anyone who is yet a part of this institution that calls itself the church. You will only find "nuggets” of truth. God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction and God can use these nuggets of truth to lead someone to the whole truth. But you will never find the whole truth spoken anywhere within this institution that calls itself the church.

The message of the institutionalized church is one of rebellion and death. There is no life to be found in message she proclaims. For this institution does not belong to God and never has. It exists primarily to separate the wheat from the chaff. This institution proclaims the great lie that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians. And those who fail to turn to God with sincere faith will forever believe this lie until it leads them to their destruction.

So to clearly respond to your question: Yes, there are nuggets of truth to be found at Sermon Index, and God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction. But as a whole, the core doctrine and message proclaimed through these sermons is leading people to destruction.


Whether it is early church fathers or the history of the church in general, it has been clear that God has desired people to gather in physical locations and not just being a part of the spiritual universal Church.
I have recently spoken to some people that hold to the belief that anything with the word "Church" is wrong because its not the best translation of the word Ekklesia in the greek. My personal observation is there is mostly hurt feelings in these cases of people who have tried to fit into Church experiences in the West and had a hard time and therefore created a theology or standard that would nullify all the Church except for those individuals who are really seeing the truth and not, in most cases gathering physically with other believers.

For the record, I love the Church. The Church is God’s family and it is my family. It is made up of all who have faith like Abraham. It is made up of all who have the favor of God. It is made up all who have become on flesh with Christ. It is made up all who have taken part in his death and his resurrection. Oh, how I love to read about my family in the scripture, and oh how I long to fellowship with them today. And when God brings these people into my life, I will rejoice and gladly drive a thousand miles to spend just an hour with one of my brothers.

But there is not the slightest chance I am going to give even an hour of my time to this institution that claims to be that which she is not. This institution is a rebellious empire that has no fear of God and no love for God.

Now, I am not saying that all who are within this institution are hopeless - for I also spent 29 years holding on to her hand. And just as God called me to turn to him with all my heart, and just as he called to me to love his truth with everything in me, I am fully confident that there is a great multitude within this empire that has yet to hear his voice. And when God calls these people, he is not going to say that "the institutionalized church is a fraud, so get out!” Instead, he will simply call them to true repentance. And as they turn to him in true repentance, it will ultimately be their love for God and their love for his truth that will lead them out of this empire.

Greg, I am thankful that I have been allowed to post on your forum. I don’t desire to be blocked from posting, but I understand if you do. If you go through the history of my post, I think you will find that except for this video, and except for this post (which by the way is only done as a response to your question) I have not made a habit of coming here sharing my beliefs about this institution. Nor do I have an intention of making such a habit.

When I post something here, it is never with the hope of stirring up trouble. Nor do I post here in order to gain a following. Instead, when I post, it is always from a heart of hope. Nearly 12 years ago, God performed a great miracle in my life through his glorious gospel. And I am not at all stingy with what God has done for me. I love to share it and I can’t help but hope to one day see someone else take part in the same miracle. So I hope this door stays open to me, but if you close it, it is certainly your right to do so.

Thanks again for taking the time to watch the video and for letting me post.

Jason Holman

Oracio, I will try to respond to your reply sometime in the near future.


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sermonindex

That is the truth, and I am very thankful that these particular nuggets of truth were present at Sermon Index. However, that is all that you will ever find within any message presented from anyone who is yet a part of this institution that calls itself the church. You will only find "nuggets” of truth. God can use these nuggets of truth to turn someone in the right direction and God can use these nuggets of truth to lead someone to the whole truth. But you will never find the whole truth spoken anywhere within this institution that calls itself the church.

The message of the institutionalized church is one of rebellion and death. There is no life to be found in message she proclaims. For this institution does not belong to God and never has. It exists primarily to separate the wheat from the chaff. This institution proclaims the great lie that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians. And those who fail to turn to God with sincere faith will forever believe this lie until it leads them to their destruction.


Brother,

Towards yourself having the freedom to post, that is not in question, where we do have a rule is users repeatedly posting their own videos, blog posts, links to their sermons etc. The reason for this is to try and keep SermonIndex a place where one cannot promote themselves overly. I see no problem in you posting this video and desiring discussion, but if there were repeated videos, etc then we might have to ask you to stop posting them.

Also just because I myself disagree with you does not mean you cannot post on the site either. The forums is a place for everyone from different backgrounds to learn from each other and encourage each other, when that line is crossed where someone is trying to force someone to believe what they believe or repeatedly speak on the same subject then we can also step in to ask them to stop. Some people have been asked to leave the site we have had to delete accounts sadly simply because someone would not stop on a subject over and over through continually pushing the agenda (specific topic).

I think it is very healthy to have this discussion on the Church as an "institution" as you are calling it and have others contribute to this discussion.

Some general observations I have made is that people do not come to the conclusions you are coming to without being hurt by the structured church in some way.

Another thought to add to this is that I know in Church history no group of believers that believed the physical ordered, structured gathering of believers is wrong.

The only writings I have found on this topic is modern believers who have been hurt by the church, some small house churches exist with this teaching.

I would also be interested to know others that you esteem that carry this viewpoint and is there a movement of believers who hold to these things?

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sermonindex

Greg said:

Brother,

Towards yourself having the freedom to post, that is not in question, where we do have a rule is users repeatedly posting their own videos, blog posts, links to their sermons etc. The reason for this is to try and keep SermonIndex a place where one cannot promote themselves overly. I see no problem in you posting this video and desiring discussion, but if there were repeated videos, etc then we might have to ask you to stop posting them.

Also just because I myself disagree with you does not mean you cannot post on the site either. The forums is a place for everyone from different backgrounds to learn from each other and encourage each other, when that line is crossed where someone is trying to force someone to believe what they believe or repeatedly speak on the same subject then we can also step in to ask them to stop. Some people have been asked to leave the site we have had to delete accounts sadly simply because someone would not stop on a subject over and over through continually pushing the agenda (specific topic).

I think it is very healthy to have this discussion on the Church as an "institution" as you are calling it and have others contribute to this discussion.

Thank you Greg, I appreciate your response.

Some general observations I have made is that people do not come to the conclusions you are coming to without being hurt by the structured church in some way.

Though I am sure that I had my feelings hurt at some point during my years within this institution, there is nothing that really stands out in my memory. For the most part, the people within this institution were always good to me.

At the time God called me and began working in my life (2003), I was a children’s pastor at a fairly large Assemblies of God "church”. The people in the congregation treated my family and I very well. In addition to that, we were also paid a fairly decent salary (especially considering I had no degree of any kind). Sometimes I would get a little frustrated with the work load, but apart from that, I had no animosity towards anyone nor did I have any kind of hurt feelings. Had it not been for the very real work of God that happened in my life, I could very well still be on staff there to this day.
So with that said, I hope you will trust that my conclusions were/are in no way inspired by hurt feelings.

Another thought to add to this is that I know in Church history no group of believers that believed the physical ordered, structured gathering of believers is wrong.

Greg, I first need to establish, the my regard for Church history ends with the scripture. Because of my certainty that the world entered into a season of deception 1900 years ago, and because I believe that this institution called the church is actually an imposter that arose during these days of great deception, I hold no regard for any of the opinions they have arisen since that time. But with that said, I do not see any opposition within the New Testament to believers gathering together for fellowship and encouragement, but I instead see that as encouraged. So I hope you can see, my opposition is not in regards to the fact that this institution tries to organize meetings. Instead, my argument is that this intuition has absolutely no real connection to that which was born on Pentecost. For I am absolutely 100 percent certain that this institution that calls itself the church has no direct ties to the true church that was born on Pentecost. Instead, I fully believe that this institution was born during these days of great deception and is a part of this great deception.

The only writings I have found on this topic is modern believers who have been hurt by the church, some small house churches exist with this teaching.
.

As I stated above, I assure you that hurt feelings are not my motivation. Also you should know that I do not endorse any house meetings that I know of - for even though these people have left the structure of this institution behind, they are still proclaiming her core doctrines and they still believe that they have life because of this core doctrine. And since it is the doctrine of this institution that is death, these people are no better off.

I would also be interested to know others that you esteem that carry this viewpoint and is there a movement of believers who hold to these things?

At this point in time, and after 10 years of coming to this understanding, I have met no one who shares my understanding. Of course, I can find many of people who think that the institution called the church is evil. There are plenty of loony "churches" who think that they are the only true church and that everything else called church is evil. However, these groups typically radiate anger and hate, and a quick examination of their doctrine is all it takes for me to know that we have nothing in common.

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sermonindex

Brother,

As per below it shows all the dates of when the New Testament books were written and the estimated death of the Apostle John, supposedly the last Apostle to be alive of the 12 Apostles. though there were more Apostles and Timothy was younger as there were other Deacons also.

So your opinion is the New Testament Church fully apostatized right after the death of the Apostles? Somewhere A.D. 100 -130?

Was there traces of this wrong "Church" system in the New Testament or did this all just happen after the New Testament was written?

If you have not been able to find anyone else who has the same understanding as you do, then how do you know you are right and not deceived? Would it not make sense if what you are believing is true at least some others would see exactly the same things?

EDIT: What are the "her core doctrines" specifically?

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

John: No death date given by early writers. Death date is by conjecture only and is variously assigned as being between 89 AD to 120 AD

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sermonindex

Greg,
If it ever seems that I am dodging a question or comment, let me assure you I am not. However , it can be difficult to explain everything in a satisfactory manner through writing, without devoting a whole lot of time to do so. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, it is only because I lack the time to fully explain it at them moment.

In regards to your question:

What are the "her core doctrines" specifically?

This deserves a longer answer, but in summary, her doctrine is that you can escape the death penalty and receive eternal life by making a deal with God. She proclaims that God will grant us salvation as long a we do such and such. In other words, she proclaims that a man can be saved by works.

I am sure you are a bit puzzled as to why I think this (for after all, the protestant church claims just the opposite). However, please look over this post that I made a few months back. If you do, I think you will understand my position a little better.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=53944&forum=35

I got to go right now. However, I will try to reply to more of this later.

O
Oracio

This deserves a longer answer, but in summary, her doctrine is that you can escape the death penalty and receive eternal life by making a deal with God. She proclaims that God will grant us salvation as long a we do such and such. In other words, she proclaims that a man can be saved by works.

I am sure you are a bit puzzled as to why I think this (for after all, the protestant church claims just the opposite). However, please look over this post that I made a few months back. If you do, I think you will understand my position a little better.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=53944&forum=35

From reading your conversion testimony it sounds like you had a bad experience with a church that preached a watered down or false gospel. Sadly there are indeed many "churches" like that and I've had my share of visiting some of them. My concern is with your assertion that all churches preach the same false gospel. Again, based on past personal experiences of being part of and visiting many different churches over the past several years since I've known the Lord, I can assure you that that is not the case. I think it's unfair to paint such a broad brush over all the Body of Christ like that and over all preachers of the gospel who are involved with different churches.

There is only one true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus said He is the Way and the Truth and the Life and there is no other way to the Father but through Him. The biblical gospel is the message of repentance and faith in Christ (Mark 1:15). Ever since the first century AD God has always had a faithful remnant that has believed and proclaimed that same saving message, both within and outside of organized churches. Again, while it is true that there are many false converts within many organized churches, not all are false converts. And again, not all organized churches are apostate as you claim.

It's one thing to not prefer being part of an organized church for certain "non-essential" reasons, but it's quite another thing to say all such churches are apostate. That's a serious claim. Many cults have been started by those who condemn all churches and say they are all apostate. I say that as a loving warning Jason. Beware bro.

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dolfan

You know, the way I read the testimony, Jason, is that you somehow ginned up the right kind of faith to "stir up" (as you described it) God's favor. That He saw something in you (faith, as you described it) while you were still dead in your sins, and that this something moved Him to give you "favor" (as you define grace) and to save you.

Am I right?

A simple yes or no will probably suffice.

T
TMK

Quote: "I kept the t.v. off. Prayed every day, and consumed the word of God like nothing else. It was one of the deepest seasons of my life. But I let it slip away. I don't recall how it started but as some point I just didn't feel the stirring in my soul. I didn't feel the hunger that I did just days before."

Pardon the comparison, but this sounds like the stages of romantic love to me. When we first fall in love, we know how powerful and all consuming that is. But things don't stay at that intensity forever (if it did we couldn't function properly). But things progress to something different- not worse, but different. I love my wife at a much deeper level now than in the 1st year or our marriage, although passions have cooled to some degree. However there are seasons of heightened passion.

This is all to say that I don't think it is necessarily "normal" to always have extreme burning passion in our relationship with the Lord. We have seasons of that, which are wonderful, but as Oswald Chambers says our real work is done in the valley, not on the mountain top. Sometimes slow and steady does win the race.

S
sermonindex

Tim said:

You know, the way I read the testimony, Jason, is that you somehow ginned up the right kind of faith to "stir up" (as you described it) God's favor. That He saw something in you (faith, as you described it) while you were still dead in your sins, and that this something moved Him to give you "favor" (as you define grace) and to save you.

Am I right?

A simple yes or no will probably suffice.:

If I am confined to a simple yes or no, then I am going to say no. For genuine faith towards God is not something you "gin up,” or "stir up,” or "work up.” Instead, coming to a place of genuine faith towards God is just the proper response of any wise person who sees God as he is.

God begins the work by calling to a person and revealing his greatness to them. Next, it is up to that person as to how they will respond.

I see it kind of like this: God calls to the foolish and says: I just thought you should know that I am the creator of this incredibly beautiful world. I think you should know that I created all these things for my pleasure, and that includes you. I think you should know that you were created to bring me joy. So now I am asking you to repent and turn towards me with all your love and all your devotion.

To this revelation, the foolish will respond in one of several different ways.

Some of the foolish will just flat out say "no!” then go on their way.

Some of the foolish will say "yes, I repent,” but then continue as before.

Some of the foolish will sincerely repent, and walk hand in hand with God for a while, but they soon grow weary in serving the creator and eventually turn away.

But when God calls to the wise, it goes like this: I just thought you should know that I am the creator of this incredibly beautiful world. I think you should know that I created all these things from my pleasure, and that includes you. I think you should know that you were created to bring me joy. But up until now you have been walking foolishly, living your life unto yourself. It is now time for you to repent. It is time to turn to me with all your heart. It is time for you to bow your knee unto me and give me the allegiance that I rightfully deserve as the creator of all things.

And once God reveals himself and calls to the wise in such a way, the wise will always respond in the same way. They will first acknowledge the yes they have been a fool. But then they quickly rectify the situation by immediately turning to God with everything in them. And from that point on they will live completely unto him.

This is not something the wise "gin up.” It is just how the wise respond once they see the beauty and magnificence of the one who created all things.

Then once a man turns to God with this sincere love and allegiance, God is filled with great joy and pleasure towards that person. That person will then have God’s favor (or grace). And because of the favor that God feels towards this person of faith, God will give unto them the greatest gift imaginable ”“ he will make this person of faith a son of God through his glorious gospel.

D
dolfan

I accept your response. The question came from two potentially conflicting readings of your testimony. Thanks for clarifying.

How does what you say implicate the "core doctrines"? You are not saying anything, really, that differs from the doctrine of the organized church.

Oh, sure, you describe things in different words perhaps than some might prefer but at bottom is nothing objectively different.

You have a deep and abiding conviction though that it somehow is and I am missing it.

You wrote:

"--Now, I believe it is worth asking: how can this be? How can the institution that is supposed to belong to God, miss it so bad? I mean we are not talking about some non-essential doctrine here, but instead, we are talking about the very foundation of God’s kingdom. And it’s not just this generation that has missed it, but you can trace this flaw back to the very earliest "Christian” writings that exist outside of scripture. How could God let this happen to His church?

--The answer to that question is really surprisingly simple; however, at this moment, that is not the important question to ask. The important question is this: Are you working for God or are you coming to Him because you love Him for who He is?"

I love Him because He first loved me for who He is. He loves us for His own glory. I feel the frustration, too, at the treatment of Jesus as get-out-of-hell-free ticket, or even Jesus as go-to-heaven-free-ticket. I think most here share that frustration in many ways. But, are you tilting at windmills somewhat? Surely, you impugn the whole of the church do you not? It would help if you got down to cases, I think, and not sweeping in the whole body to this thing you reject.

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sermonindex

Tim, can I ask you two questions?

First I would like to know if you watched the video that I shared all the way through.

Second, I would like to know if you believe that the gospel presentation that Ray Comfort uses is accurate and life giving?

If not, then please direct me to a place on the internet where I can find a presentation of the Gospel that you %100 endorse (anything in the form of audio, video, or writing).

I also extend the second question and request to Oracio. Oracio you said that there are many "churches" that proclaim a true and accurate "gospel."
So I ask you Oracio, do you accept Ray Comfort's gospel as accurate? And if not, will you also direct me to a link that contains a presentation of the gospel that you view as accurate and life giving.

Thanks,

Jason

O
Oracio

So I ask you Oracio, do you accept Ray Comfort's gospel as accurate? And if not, will you also direct me to a link that contains a presentation of the gospel that you view as accurate and life giving.

Yes, I accept that gospel message as biblical. It's the gospel of repentance and faith in Christ. It's the same gospel message preached by other well-known preachers like Paul Washer, Zac Poonen, and many other faithful preachers of the gospel whom God has raised up in His service. What is wrong with the gospel message they preach? If your concern is that it is "fear-oriented" because it begins with reasoning about sin, righteousness and judgment, respectfully, you will have to take that up with multitudes of passages from God's Word in which we see it presented in that way. Jesus warned over and over about God's judgment against sin and so did all the prophets and apostles and disciples. It is true that fear of hell should not be the only motivation for coming to Christ, but it can and should be part of it (e.g. Matt. 10:28). The truth of God’s judgment against sin helps us understand the holiness of God, it helps us see how serious God takes sin. Meditating on the cross of Christ also helps us see that. There is a healthy fear of God that every child of God is commanded by God to have. Yes, we must also understand the love of God and relate to God based on that truth and reality, but again, He does not only deal with us in loving terms. I'd like to ask you this, do you fear God? If so, please explain in what sense you do or don’t.

I wrote and shared this short piece recently dealing with the fear of God in case anyone is interested:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."-Philippians 2:12-13

The truth that God commands His people to strive after holiness in a healthy sense of fear (reverence) toward Him has been largely ignored and dismissed by much of Christendom. I hear many professing Christians say things like, "God doesn't want us to live in fear of Him, He only wants us to have a loving relationship with Him and to be thankful for what He has done for us and continues to do for us.” But that is only a half-truth; it is not the whole teaching of the whole counsel of God’s Word. Jesus said to His disciples, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”-Matthew 10:28

Yes, it is true that we are not to be like the cults and false religions that offer no assurance of salvation and believe in a false, distant god who may or may not save them. It is most certainly true that we cannot earn salvation or a place in heaven by any works of our own; it is most certainly true that Jesus paid our full sin-debt on the cross and that it is only by God’s grace through faith in Christ that we are saved (Rom. 3:24; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9; Tit. 3:5). But it is equally true that it is seriously dangerous to consider the grace of God as a license to sin. God’s Word warns us over and over about that danger.

In Jude 1:4 the early church was warned about false teachers who "crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.” That warning is just as needed today as it was back then. That scripture is fulfilled today whenever you hear a preacher say things like, "Look, as long as you believe in Jesus you can know He accepts you as His child regardless of the kind of lifestyle you live or the sins you commit”.

In Titus 2:11-14 we are told what the true grace of God teaches us and looks like; it declares there, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” Then in verse 15 Paul goes on to tell Titus, "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Concerning Philippians 2:12-13 the Matthew Henry Commentary says:

"It concerns us above all things to secure the welfare of our souls: whatever becomes of other things, let us take care of our best interests. We must be diligent in the use of all the means which are conducive to our salvation. We must not only work AT our salvation, by doing something now and then about it; but we must work OUT our salvation, by doing all that is to be done, and persevering therein to the end. Salvation is the great thing we should mind, and set our hearts upon; and we cannot attain salvation without the utmost care and diligence...with fear and trembling, that is, with great care and circumspection: "Trembling for fear lest you miscarry and come short...Fear is a great guard and preservative from evil. "And because it is God who works in you, do work out your salvation. Work, for he works." It should encourage us to do our utmost, because our labor shall not be in vain. God is ready to concur with his grace, and assist our faithful endeavors. Observe, though we must use our utmost endeavors in working out our salvation, yet still we must go forth, and go on, in a dependence upon the grace of God; as there is no strength in us, so there is no merit in us. As we cannot act without God's grace, so we cannot claim it, nor pretend to deserve it. God's good will to us is the cause of his good work in us" (emphasis mine)

A few additional relevant scriptures:

"And he commanded them, saying, "Thus you shall act in the fear of the Lord, faithfully and with a loyal heart”-2 Chronicles 19:9

"And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, And to depart from evil is understanding.' "-Job 28:28

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.”-Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.”-Proverbs 9:10

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”-2 Corinthians 7:1

"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.”-Hebrews 12:28-29”

D
dolfan

1. No. It was just too long.
2. Yes it is accurate. The gospel of Christ is the power of God into salvation to all who believe. It isn't Ray Comfort's gospel but I believe he presents it accurately.

S
sermonindex

(Tim, I wish you would have watched the video. For then you may have a better understanding as to what this thread is completely about. Nonetheless, I do recognize that it is long, but there is not a whole lot I could do about that (with the exception of a few minor edits). Maybe you could download the audio version and listen to it on the go.)


Ok, since you both believe that Ray Comfort presents the gospel accurately, let’s take a look at this "gospel" as it is presented.

I remember reading "Hell’s Best Kept Secret” years ago, and at that time,I thought it was a great revelation.

If I remember correctly, Ray was perplexed by all the people who would make a "decision” for Christ only to immediately fall away from the faith. As he began to examine this problem, he came to understand that the problem was with the way the gospel was presented. He believed that most messengers of the gospel would present the gospel as a way for people to have a better life in the here and now (as well as eternity), but soon after "coming to Christ,” these same people would discover that life with Christ really wasn’t all that great. Instead of receiving peace and joy, these people would encounter trials and tribulation and as a result, eventually abandon the faith.

His most vivid example of this that I remember involved a plane, and a parachute. Here is this example as it appears word for word in his book (I don’t currently have the book, but I was able to track this down online):

From "Hell’s Best Kept Secret”

Two men are seated in a plane. A stewardess gives the first man a parachute and instructs him to put it on as it will "improve his flight."

Not understanding how a parachute could possibly improve his flight, the first passenger is a little skeptical. Finally he decides to see if the claim is true. After strapping on the parachute, he notices its burdensome weight, and he has difficulty sitting upright. Consoling himself with the promise of a better flight, our first passenger decides to give it a little time.

Because he's the only one wearing a parachute, some of the other passengers begin smirking at him, which only adds to his humiliation. Unable to stand it any longer, our friend slumps in his seat, unstraps the parachute, and throws it to the floor. Disillusionment and bitterness fill his heart because, as far as he is concerned, he was told a lie.

There is more to this analogy, and the remainder of it provides a picture of the way that Ray came to believe the gospel should be presented.

Another stewardess gives the second man a parachute, but listen to her instructions. She tells him to put it on because at any moment all the passengers will be making an emergency exit out of the plane at 25,000 feet.

Our second passenger gratefully straps the parachute on. He doesn't notice its weight upon his shoulders or that he can't sit upright. His mind is consumed with the thought of what would happen to him if he jumped without it. When other passengers laugh at him, he thinks, "You won't be laughing when you're falling to the ground!"

So as you can see through the above illustration, Ray came to understand that it was incorrect to motivate people to come to Christ with the promise of a better life. Instead, he came to believe that a proper presentation of the gospel should focus on the fact that man was a law breaker who rightfully deserved hell. He came to believe that if you first showed someone there guilt before God then that someone would be much more likely to turn to Christ. And not only would they turn to Christ, but they would also be willing to endure any discomfort that results from following Christ because the know the he is ultimately saving them from the righteous judgement of God.

With that said, let’s not go through a gospel presentation as suggested by Ray Comfort:

First you use the 10 commandments to show someone that they are indeed a law breaker.

Next you explain to them that because God is a righteous judge, he cannot simply ignore their lawlessness. And therefore, they are confronted with the fact that they are in a whole heap of trouble.

Once this person is confronted with the fact that they are in a whole heap of trouble, you introduce them to the good news that Jesus died on the cross to take the penalty for them. You explain to them that they can have the benefit of having theirs sins paid for through the death of Jesus if they will turn from there sin and place their faith in Jesus.


So now, what is wrong with this presentation? Well, pretty much everything thing! However, I will only focus on its most glaring fault.

Let’s pretend for a moment that someone heard this message and really came to a place of genuine fear. Let’s imagine that they realized that their sins were deserving of hell and lets imagine that they responded to the message with all their heart. Let’s imagine that they sincerely confessed every sin and diligently tried to resist their sin in the future. Let imagine that this person began to diligently read Gods word and began to spend a great deal of time each day in prayer. Let’s even go so far as to imaging that this person became so excited about the "gospel” they believed, that they would sell everything they owned and then travel the world to spread this message to the world. And finally lets imagine that this person endured much hardship and persecution because of the gospel they believed and let imagine that this person is eventually put to death for the sake of their gospel.

It is likely that you believe that this person will experience a joyful entrance into the kingdom of God. However, I am quite certain that this person will have received no such thing. And I am quite certain that this person will hear the words "I never knew you, depart from me.”

So why do I think this? I think this because this person only came to Christ as a "work.”

How was it "work?’

It was work because of the motives behind it. The initial reason that this person turned away from their sins and believed on Jesus was in order to escape hell and receive eternal life. It wasn’t the magnificence of God that provoked this man to turn away from sin and profess Christ. It was his own selfish motives that inspired his actions. And when something is done for selfish motives, God considers it work and he will give nothing to such a person.

The problem with Protestants is that they tend to think that only Catholics do work. Protestants mistakenly believe that "works” are all those physical, outward rituals that Catholics do in hope of gaining eternal life. Protestants believe that just because they do not trust in outward physical rituals as their means of salvation, that they are not working. A Protestant will claim that instead of working for their salvation they trust in the work of Jesus on the cross. They call this act of trusting in Jesus and his death - faith. And they believe that this act of faith will motivate God to give them his gift of eternal life.

However, Protestants are greatly mistaken. For this act of trusting in Jesus and his death on the cross, is just as much a work as all the Catholic rituals that are performed in the hope of gaining God’s gift.

For you see, whenever the apostle Paul tries to tell us that we are not saved my works., he is not referring to any particular outward action, but he is instead referring to the motive behind that action.

If an action is performed (whether an inward mental action or an outward physical action) with the hope of gaining something as a result of that action, it is considered work.

Why do you get up in the morning and go to your place of employment? Is it because you just love your boss so much? Or is it because you expect to be paid at the end of the week? And why does your boss pay you at the end of the week. Is it because he really likes you, or is it out of obligation because you worked?

Maybe you have a blue collar job that is physical demanding. Or maybe you have a white collar job that requires little physical effort. Regardless of these facts, the blue collar worker and the white collar worker both show up to their place of employment for the same reason ”“ because they want to be paid. And because of this, the actions they perform are considered work.

You see, it doesn’t matter what you do, or how hard or easy it is physically. If you are doing it with the hope receiving a benefit of any kind, then it is work. And once the work is done, you are not paid because your employer favors you. You are paid because he is obligated to do so.

The gospel of Ray Comfort (and the gospel that is proclaimed elsewhere in the institution called the church) is a false gospel of works. For they all teach that if we perform the action (or work) of sincerely believing on Jesus, then God will be obligated to pay us by removing our death penalty and granting us eternal life.

But oh how wrong they are. God gives nothing out of obligation. God gives nothing in response to work. God only gives his gift of salvation to those whom he feels favor towards. And God only has favor towards those who sincerely repent towards him.

Sincere repentance is not turning from sin and believing in Jesus because you realize you are a razor’s edge away from eternal torment. Instead, sincere repentance is turning to God with all your love and devotion simply because you recognize him as the good and wonderful God that he is. When someone sincerely repents, there is not one selfish motive behind it. It is all done completely for the glory and pleasure of God.

Then when God sees the sincere faith, God is filled with great delight and joy. And in his delight, God desires to bless this person of faith. And so, God gives unto them the greatest gift a person could ever dream of receiving. God makes them a son of God through the mystery of the gospel.

Ray Comfort says (as well as all other messenger from this institution the calls herself the church) that God will make a deal will you. If you do your part of the deal and believe on Jesus, then God will do his part of the deal and grant you eternal life. But the scripture clearly teaches that God offers no such deal.

But Paul says (paraphrased by me): You were given the gift of salvation because you are favored by God. You are favored by God because you have faith towards him.. You have nothing to boast about, because you did nothing worthy of boasting about. Ephesians 2:8-9

And that my friends is the truth of God’s word. And it is this truth that you will never hear proclaimed from any man who claims loyalty to this institution called the church.

As I said in my video: this institution called the church primarily exists to separate the wheat from the chaff within the kingdom of God. It is spreading the great lie that Paul spoke of in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. And the reason you believe this lie is because you are under a very strong delusion ”“ a delusion that has been placed upon you by God himself. And unless you repent and come to a place of true faith towards God, you will continue to believe this lie until it leads you to your destruction.

O
Oracio

To hold on to your version of the gospel and your conviction concerning the Body and Bride of Christ, you have to ignore and dismiss so many clear scriptures. I wouldn't know where to start. The only thing I can say at this point is that I'll pray for you to come out of this phase because it is not spiritually healthy to say the least. Take care bro.

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sermonindex

Sincere repentance is not turning from sin and believing in Jesus because you realize you are a razor’s edge away from eternal torment. Instead, sincere repentance is turning to God with all your love and devotion simply because you recognize him as the good and wonderful God that he is. When someone sincerely repents, there is not one selfish motive behind it. It is all done completely for the glory and pleasure of God.

Jason,

There are many points I could discuss and bring up as Oracio mentioned. I am pretty sure from your statements that you do not believe that sin in man is a problem. That we are full of such great sin and wickedness that the only remedy was God himself punishing his son on our behalf.

The problem is you are not able to love and seek God because of your sin, the only remedy is Jesus Christ himself.

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

What to me is most concerning, is that you can believe things how you believe and not be able to find one other believer who see's things exactly how you do. This should be a red flag in your mind that you are deceived by the enemy and that others in church history, namely everyone is not in agreement with your views.

We judge things in our small contexts, and for you to repudiate the church is repudiating only the churches you know of or your bad experience of american apostate churches.

Do you believe Jesus is God in the flesh?

I think it could be helpful for you to also consider these questions to yourself and think through how you came to your conclusions.

Does your wife agree with your doctrine? Is she saved? do you have children? do they believe these things?

So your opinion is the New Testament Church fully apostatized right after the death of the Apostles? Somewhere A.D. 100 -130?

Was there traces of this wrong "Church" system in the New Testament or did this all just happen after the New Testament was written?

If you have not been able to find anyone else who has the same understanding as you do, then how do you know you are right and not deceived? Would it not make sense if what you are believing is true at least some others would see exactly the same things?

EDIT: What are the "her core doctrines" specifically?

I
InTheLight

Jason,

Could you tell us what you make of Duncan Campbell's description of events in the Hebrides revival when he spoke of a young girl crying out at the pulpit, "is there mercy for me, is there mercy for me, is there mercy for me?!?"; or when he described that the work of God as He moved upon the people was to cause them to know that they were hell deserving sinners?

Was that real revival?

D
dolfan

2 Cor. 7:10
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Grief? That is the simple word of God. Grief produces repentance. Not a comprehension of God's beauty. It never says that seeing God's glory or His beauty or His love produces a change of mind. Not saying those things cannot, but the word says grief produces repentance.

Grief. Mourning. Sadness. Sorrow. Heaviness of heart.

These are qualities of heart that emerge quickly when sinful man encounters a holy God. Isaiah lamented his sinfulness in the presence of the Holy One. He used the word "woe". He saw the glory, majesty and beauty of God and said "woe is me".

By the way, so did you, Jason. You came to this point of seeing the beauty of God as so encompassing after your conversion. This was a growth point. It was not a revelation from Him about the means of salvation and that work in the heart that leads one to metanoia/change of mind/repentance. Your characterizations to the contrary cannot change the word of God.

I know you are sincere and serious. After you walked with Him For a time He taught you a vital truth about Himself, but you have gone too far to stretch that quality about Himself into a threshold issue for salvation and being an orthodox biblical church.

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sermonindex

I do not have time to reply to all these comments at the moment. However, I will leave you with this if you are interested.

A few years after writing "Keep the Fire Burning" I felt the need to add an update. I added the update to the original Keep the Fire Burning thread. It begins on the sixth page of that thread (assuming your are logged out).

I warn you now, it is quite long, but if you are interested, it is was I would call the long version of my "testimony" (I am not really crazy about that word, but I lack a better one at the moment). It does not only tell "how" I became a child of God, but it also shares the glorious result of becoming his child. It is fairly in depth and should enlighten you at to what exactly it is that I believe in regards to the gospel.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that it is/was very well written. I am currently in the process of rewriting it, but it is a long way from being complete. So all I can offer you now is the rougher version that is available within the "Keep the Fire Burning" thread.

I am sure you will be able to figure it out, but the little question mark symbols are supposed to be apostrophes and quotation marks. This was originally written with the word perfect program and apparently the coding was not completely compatible when I copied it over to Sermon Index.

I think this link will take you directly to the page that contains the writing I am referring to. It begins with the 7th comment from the top.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=340&forum=35&start=50&viewmode=flat&order=0

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sermonindex

I'm not a fan of Ray Comfort's style but I don't think it's a false gospel.

I have a few questions for you, whenever you get the time.

1. What do you make of 'blessed are those that mourn' in the Sermon on the Mount?
2. How do you understand the Holy Spirit's job of 'conviction'? Are you against this?
3. What is your view of 2 Cor. 7:10 ?

My perspective is this 'your filthy let God clean you' is the common way of presenting the gospel. I'm not against it but I'm also not for it. My perspective is a bit different, 'God became flesh and led the example for us'. I believe Jesus demonstrated the love-affair that should be our daily lives. Not that we constantly need showers.

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sermonindex

Oracio said:

To hold on to your version of the gospel and your conviction concerning the Body and Bride of Christ, you have to ignore and dismiss so many clear scriptures. I wouldn't know where to start.

While it may be possible for you to pick a few random verses to dispute my "version” of the gospel, I am absolutely certain that the entire context of scripture supports all that I shared in my last post.

Oracio, it is a dangerous thing to cherry pick scriptures and then use those few scriptures to define the whole context of scripture. But that is what the lady who calls herself the church has done. She has carefully chosen a "few” random verses and created a false gospel out of them. She has created a message that the rebellious and foolish will love. And even though it is blatantly obvious that it is opposed to the whole context of scripture, the foolish and rebellious will never be able to see that. They can’t see it for lie that it clearly is because they are under a strong delusion that causes them to see it as the truth.

Oracio, I am sorry to be so blunt (but I do not know any other way to say something of such importance), but the message you call the "gospel” (this message presented by Ray Comfort ”“ and I only use him as one example), is utter foolishness and non-sense. And it has so little scriptural support it is frightening. This "gospel” that you are holding onto is just more of the same wickedness that has been going on since the early days of man. For this message that you call a "gospel” worships the creature, and the invention of this "gospel” is just another fulfillment of Romans 1:24&25

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: (25)Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

If you want to place your faith in a "gospel” that is created from just a handful of cherry picked verses, suit yourself. But as for me, I will stick with the gospel that is confirmed throughout the whole context of scripture. I will stick with the gospel that places God at the center of everything. I will stick with the gospel that has powerfully changed my life. I will stick to the gospel that made me one with Christ. I will stick to the gospel that delivered me from death and the power of sin. I will stick to the gospel that made me a son of God. I will stick with gospel has filled me with the true righteousness of God. This is the gospel to which I hold.

Greg Said:

Jason,

There are many points I could discuss and bring up as Oracio mentioned. I am pretty sure from your statements that you do not believe that sin in man is a problem. That we are full of such great sin and wickedness that the only remedy was God himself punishing his son on our behalf.

The problem is you are not able to love and seek God because of your sin, the only remedy is Jesus Christ himself.

I must admit that I am a little bit puzzled by this statement and this belief that a man can’t turn to God in faith and love because of sin.

While I can see a couple of verses that one could use to support this idea. Based on the rest of the entire scripture, I recognize that those verses can’t really mean that.

If you really believe that a man can’t turn to God in faith because he is under the power of sin, then please explain to me how Abraham had faith that pleased God? And not only Abraham, but let’s not forget all the others OT men that God spoke well of. How do you explain Able, Enoch, Noah, Joseph, Joshua, Samuel, David, Daniel, Job, Elijah, and etc. How in the world did these men who were not yet set free from the power of sin please God? All these men lived years before the cross, and yet God smiled upon then. How so? Hebrews 11:39 answers this question and says that they were approved by God because of their faith.

Now, that is not to say that any of these men just woke up one day and randomly decided to serve God. Instead, God had to initiate this work by first calling to each of them. God had to first call to them and shake them out of their slumber.

And so it was for me also. God had to initiate the work by first calling to me. He had to wake up this man who was sleeping. And had he not called to me, I would still be asleep.

So if you think that I think that I came to God strictly of my own accord, you are mistaken and you have failed to take note of all the times I said that God "called” me. He calling was an extremely important part of this process that he began in my life. And had he not called to me, I would have never seen him in his glory and turned to him in faith.

In my experience, the process went something like this:

First God called to me and woke me out of my slumber (at age 29) ”“ I then saw him and his greatness and turned to him with complete allegiance and devotion (I ceased seeking him for my own selfish gain but began to serve him simply because he was worthy of my devotion).

This act of repenting in no way set me free from sin. For I was still as much under the power of sin as before, only now, I truly despised my sin and longed to be cleansed.

Next, in response to my faith, God was pleased, and in his pleasure, he gave me a great gift. He baptized me into his Son Jesus. And through that great miracle, I became "one” with Christ. I became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. Through that great miracle, I went to death with Christ on the cross. And through my death with Christ, my death penalty was paid. But not only that, through my death with Christ, I was no longer a slave to sin (for how can you be a servant to someone if you are dead?)

After my death with Christ, God raised me from the dead with Christ. As he raised Jesus from the dead he announced: Thou are my son, this day have I begotten thee. And since I was in Christ as this announcement was made, I too was declared to be a Son of God. And the same righteous Spirit that entered into Christ as he rose from the dead, also entered in to me. So as a result of this great miracle, I am now free from the power of sin, and I now produce the fruit of righteousness.

So to answer you original question Greg: Yes, I was once dead in sin. And yes it was a great problem. But if you think that that means that a man can’t respond to God with faith because they are under sin, you are in great error. And the whole context of scripture clearly shows the error of this belief.

Yes, God must start the work. God must first call to a man. But after God has called, the response from the one who is called will not at all be influenced by the fact that they are under sin. Instead, their response will be dictated by wisdom or foolishness. If one is wise, they will respond in faith, if they are foolish, they will ignore his call and go on with their life as before.

Edit -
Greg said:

What to me is most concerning, is that you can believe things how you believe and not be able to find one other believer who see's things exactly how you do. This should be a red flag in your mind that you are deceived by the enemy and that others in church history, namely everyone is not in agreement with your views.

Greg, I realize that this is the second time you have ask this, and I want you to know that I am not ignoring the question. I will try to answer it the next chance I get.

D
dolfan

Jason, I submit that your loving response to God's call, a response you attribute to seeing His glory after being awakened to it, was not your conversion. You had an experience that is valid and right, objectively speaking. God put something of Himself into your own spirit that you had not known.

Psalm 84:11 says that the Lord will give grace and glory. You were a beneficiary of His grace. A time in your relationship with Him arrived where, to use your phrasing, it pleased Him to give you something of His glory that you had not known.

John 1:16 says, in John's words of testimony and praise, that of Jesus we have received "grace upon grace." That is what comes to mind as I read you.

It seems rather odd that you would make that newer blessing the test of all salvation and truth. I truly believe you misunderstand the Word and that you are wrestling with the substance of what happened in you. I think it has consumed you to some degree to so understand it that you have inadvertently erred as you search for a cognitive place to make what God has done in you "fit" what you know of His Word.

It is something that has isolated you in some ways.

Might I humbly suggest that you listen to many counsellors? Might I ask that you diligently cross your newer understanding against the counsel of men full of the Spirit? Surely you know them where you live.

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sermonindex

Jason

Bless you brother, l have just read through your testimony, though l will have to go back to it later for a more thorough reading, and l join you in agreement with what l have read, as the same experience l have gone through myself and of having the same revelations particularly regarding the false gospel the Babylonian church is preaching. The gate is narrow indeed and most are asleep and deceived.

I am so encouraged by your writings. You must publish them. They are in line with others who have been illuminated and walked in the Spirit of truth and holiness in past days.

S
sermonindex

Brenda,

Jason is saying that he has not met with anyone else who agrees fully with what he believes as well as no established group is from God. Meaning not just a apostate section of the Church or false churches but rather they are all wrong, even house churches etc.

Jason has not answered my questions on this as this is the core of his problem and it is very dangerous in fact that he is divorcing himself from all of Christianity including all speakers on this website and all of Church history. Do you agree with Jason also, why then are you quoting preachers or on SermonIndex? to me this is a very heretical belief to separate yourself from all of the Church. In most cases believers do this because they visit 20-30 churches in their local area and consider them all lukewarm, apostate or wrong therefore they define their entire worldview in this way sadly.

I write these things out of concern for Jason and also others who would think in these ways. It is a dangerous path, of lack of submission to authority, judging what we do not know.

I am encouraging Jason to answer my questions as well as others, because this is God's mercy to him to think about these things and to not deceive himself to be against everything called Church. This belief is wrong and in no way am I giving free air time to this but rather in mercy allowing saints to interact and help him in this belief.

Jesus said that if we are blind we will see, if we see (confess we know everything) we will become blind. Our view of things is very small.

S
sermonindex

Greg

I do not separate myself in body, l meet with others even though they disagree with me and often they separate themselves from me when they discover what l believe or endeavour to silence me which l think is out of Gods will for them to do so. The sermons etc here contain nuggets of truth and l will quote them as truth is truth even if not the whole truth but the only body of believers who represented the true church that l have found since NT days were the early Quakers.

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sermonindex

Greg l do not claim to know everything, in fact l am pretty sure that l will learn some from Jason's writings and that l can teach him some things that have been revealed to me. No man gets the full revelation but if a man still struggles with sin, he has no chance of discerning truth as he is not in the kingdom.

S
sermonindex

"I do not separate myself in body, l meet with others even though they disagree with me and often they separate themselves from me when they discover what l believe or endeavour to silence me which l think is out of Gods will for them to do so. The sermons etc here contain nuggets of truth and l will quote them as truth is truth even if not the whole truth but the only body of believers who represented the true church that l have found since NT days were the early Quakers."

Brenda,

So is there any other believers that you would consider true believers, or especially any local churches that you consider right? Or are they all apostate except for some churches back in the days of George Fox?

There is a difference of not being able to find a local body of believers or not sure which group to connect with, that is ok. What is not ok is when we say that all churches are apostate therefore I cannot visit with them and accept what they believe.

"Greg l do not claim to know everything" Exactly Brenda, I do not either, nor I hope anyone here on the forums. Therefore we should not judge and criticize all other believers as wrong, because they do not agree with some beliefs we have. Rather when we start to think we are the standard of everything that is true we can be in a very dangerous place of pride which brings deception and blindness.

I personally would be happy to fellowship in any mainline denomination apart from those who openly accept homosexuality in anyway. There of course are local churches that have a bad pastors and less then desirable services. But God's people are even in these churches that seem lukewarm.


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sermonindex

Greg

I have found believers who have read and believed the gospel that Jason is preaching but are still seeking to enter in themselves. I will happily fellowship with them or with those who are still under the cloud of deception as l love them and long for them to be out of bondage.

Then there are those who oppose the truth and want to get rid of me. I love them too and cannot judge them as l was once lost too. I have fellowship with those following Celtic Theology and am discovering the true gospel preached during those early years too.

But no, l have not found one man preaching this gospel in any church group. I don't recall reading that Jason has withdrawn himself from fellowshipping with others. I will not do that. I tried to join the Lydia group recently and was open about my beliefs but they rejected me despite saying they are transdenominational. God hates men who cause divisions which is what they did.

I consider men saved if they have victory over sin.

H
hulsey

Jason,

I listened to your message, read your blog, and read through the related conversations.

Much of what you said I am in agreement with. I think your definition of the new birth experience is right on. However I think Sree said it best when he said, "I agree with your experience, but I do not agree with your conclusion."

Your testimony of the new birth sounds wonderful and is exactly how I describe it. But it's also exactly how many great teachers throughout Church history have described it. Tozer (Who was very critical of the IC but that was because he had a high view of the Church and didn't think it should be abandoned), Edwards, Wesley, Schlatter, Sparks, Lloyd-Jones were men from the past - all part of the institutional Church you condemn - who taught the same about the new birth; Zac Poonen, David Platte, Bill Randles, and Alan Martin are men today who I know teach the same and all will tell you they are members of the Church.

Yet these all have a RADICALLY different conclusion about the Church than you. I would add that Jesus and Paul also have a different conclusion.

Yes, there will be a great falling away, and it is happening now absolutely. But Paul would say, 'Not all Israel is Israel,' and Jesus, when rebuking the seven Churches of Revelation (Which was written well after 1 John btw) did not beg believers to leave those Churches, not even Laodicea. He called them to repentance, which did not include leaving the organized bodies.

Scripture makes no secret that there is a false Church, a harlot bride. But you've done it one better by declaring ALL false. Scripture does not do this. There is a pure and undefiled Bride, one who has kept her garments white even in the midst of apostasy according to the testimony of Christ in Revelation. Are you now more righteous than He? Scripture declares a great falling away but also a glorious Bride. You've done it one better and declared EVERYTHING unclean. Brother I know we're not to acquit the guilty, but we're also equally warned not to condemn the righteous, and this is what you're doing. And the one who destroys God's temple will be destroyed by God.

Again, Sree said it best, "I agree with your experience, but I do not agree with your conclusion."

B
brothagary

I agree with Greg on this


The idea that repentance comes from a glimps of gods glory is fine to affirm ,but let's affirm the rest of scripture Jesus said fear not those who can kill the body but rather fear God who after he has killed is able to through into hell ...

And the bible says also that by the fear of God men depart from iniquity

Jesus used the threat of hell fire as a motivation to fear God ,,,and we know that the fear of God is a element of the new birth and conversion when the bible says by the fear of the lord men depart from iniquity, it implies a man ifinds true repetence the power to turn and be set free from sin and turn to God .....by the fear of God and men can find this fear thorough law preaching or hell preaching..a true repentance in volves more then a glimps of gods holiness but also gods wrath you can't real y deni that scripture teaches both ......

Regarding Brenda's idea that one must have total victory of all sin to be saved is selective theology that is far removed fro biblical and historical Christian theology. You only need to read first Corinthians to see that Paul concise red those in the church at Corinth saved ,,,he call them babes In Christ . Friends when your in Christ you are in Christ babes or mature men makes no difference He called them carnal for there behaviour yet never did he say what Brenda says namely if you don't have total victory of sin you not saved ,,,,

They obviously did not have a total victory of sin Paul called out many parictular sins in their behaviour and then if we look closely strikes fear of hell into there hears which produced godlisorrow wich produced repentance from sin , by him says don't be decieved the unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God nor fornicator a ectra ectra. Ectra henc his list of sins No ware did he say apparently that ,,hey brothers you need to get another glimps of gods glory,,, ,,but even so it is through the preaching of gods law that we get a glimps of gods holiness ,, how clear is that taught , so very clear

B
brothagary

I don't no if now is the best time for a theological debate but some of the greatest and most holy men held to the belief that cpscripture teaches that the carnal and natural man dead in sins can't respond to God in faith ,
But the are many scripture that teach that the natural man cannot recieve the things of the spirit it is foolish to him ,and the carnal mind is at enmity towards God and is not subject to the law of God ,,,Jesus him self said this things I speak to you are spirit and the simple message of Jesus the testamony of Jesus is the sprit of prophecy according to John ,God must do a great work min the carnal ,and mind and heart for him to recieve the things of the spirit of God other wise it is nothing but folly

God must set the carnal mind of men free
from the abomination of unbelief

The root of sin unbelief and pride are ripped out of the heart and the mind of the natural man by the power of the Holy Spirit Jesus first sets the carnal man free of these satanic strong holds
You see if the son sets you free you will be free indeed what occurs with in the sinful son of Adam when Jesus breaks the chains of the sin of unbelief and pride

Can I kindly with the glory of God in mind submit . That faith and humility the first fruits of the Holy Spirit are grafted in to us as we are set free from those two fleshly strong hold .
Why and when what stages does God choose to do this ,,,,.,,well I don't think think this thread needs to go down that mysterious road of theoligal decision ,,,,but let's say millions of blood bought chridren and descused that and disagreed but the wise ones never let those differences destroy the unique blood relationship we all have

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sermonindex

Gary

You are confirming what Jason says; that the majority of the church does not and has not taught the gospel he is presenting. It has been taught by the minority since the beginning. Sadly the error is main stream. I am at present researching it during the early middle ages, having already read of those who taught it in medieval times especially in Spain. Indeed it is few who enter the gate.

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul says to whom he is addressing here in chapter one:

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

They are called to be, and not yet saints or saved ones. He expected to be able to speak to them as such, but they have obviously not gone on as expected and are still sinning and acting as though they were still carnal.

They have been sanctified but not entirely sanctified.

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sermonindex

Jeremy

I don't think that Jason is condemning men. There have been men who have taught some of the truth through the ages, and have brought on great revivals like Wesley and Finney, but no-one had as much revelation as George Fox in modern times and hence brought about radical social change. Soon however, the teaching is lost and within a generation, it is watered down. There is no church today standing on that truth as far as I know, but there may be men amongst them, the pure bride, as has usually been the case.

The new birth is not the same as the experience of coming to Christ for forgiveness and becoming a believer. Men wrongly confuse them and the scriptures that describe them.

D
davidkeel


I just wanted to bring to light some of Duncan Cambells words on the baptism of holiness.

As you know, he was known as being one of the most famous exponents of the Baptismal experience.
His story was of being left for dead on a battle field and by chance someone rescued him on the back of a horse where he prayed for God to make him "as holy as a saved sinner could be". It was the same prayer as Murray McCheyne had prayed, which he had read about.

Duncan began to be filled and said in an audio tape later that he felt like an angel such was the purity that had come into his life.

But he went on to preach later in his ministry :

Here I would sound a note of warning. Nowhere does the Word of God promise a once-for-all cleansing. We are to walk in the light if we are to know continuous cleansing. Let this be clearly understood and then we shall not fall into the error of trying to live today on the cleansing of yesterday. We must guard against any deliberate choice of things unclean and ever cultivate the attitude of entire surrender to the known will of God. If we are to be clothed in white garments and wear the crown of gold we must cultivate the most sensitive relationship with Him, whose habitation is light, and in whom is no darkness at all.


B
brothagary

2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters


Brenda in the letter Paul says that those whom he writes the letter are the saints even tho they are in sin at that time for numerous reasons

Your theology has cause you to twist scripture , regarding the other scripture you posts shows that as well...
To suggest that person who is in Christ is not born again is utter folly

Even the gospel of John says even to them that believed of his name who were born not of the flesh not of the will of man but born of God..

To suggest that some on can be justified by that but born of God flys in the face of all that scripture teaches ,,read the first chapter of the of John again

B
brothagary

11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


It feels a strange to have to explain this but,,,John clears says even the ones who believed in Jesus name are 13 born not of flesh but of God

S
sermonindex

11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

As usual Gary you miss out an important word: it says they receive the RIGHT to BECOME the sons of God, not that they are the sons of God, and moreover it says that all of His own do not receive Him.

Brenda in the letter Paul says that those whom he writes the letter are the saints even tho they are in sin at that time for numerous reasons

Again Gary it clearly says they are CALLED to be saints not that they are. Both verses are consistent with my theology.

H
hulsey

Jason,

Again, while there is much that I find agreement with you, its your conclusions that don't seem to match up with your experience.

Your conclusion about Church history is neither theologically sound nor historically accurate. It's based off of a very narrow reading of Scripture, and requires a complete knowledge of every event of all of Church history that only God has.

Your conclusion about the new birth is in conflict with your own testimony. Ray Comfort and others would teach the very same thing about going down in death with Christ and being raised to new life with Him. I don't know any godly man or woman who wouldn't say 'Amen' to such a testimony. However, you then develop the same conclusion as the modern hyper-grace message which I find puzzling.

T
TMK

Brenda--

"Called to be saints" sounds like past tense to me.

For example, college freshmen were accepted as students at the college. It is not something in the future. They ARE students.

The same logic applies to the language regarding Paul's audience being give the right to be called sons of God. It's past tense, not future. To reach another conclusion requires twisting of scripture.

S
sermonindex

ARE called or WERE called? Any Greek scholars here?

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sermonindex

Greg said:

If you have not been able to find anyone else who has the same understanding as you do, then how do you know you are right and not deceived? Would it not make sense if what you are believing is true at least some others would see exactly the same things?

And in another post Greg said again:

[What to me is most concerning, is that you can believe things how you believe and not be able to find one other believer who see's things exactly how you do. This should be a red flag in your mind that you are deceived by the enemy and that others in church history, namely everyone is not in agreement with your views.

Greg, can I ask you this: If I said that I knew of one other person who saw things exactly as I did (outside of my wife and kids) would you be any less concerned? If I could confirm to you that there are two of us in the world who hold to the same beliefs, would this cause you to reconsider your doubts about me and the things I believe? If two people are not enough to cause you to reconsider your doubts, then what about 5 or 10 or 100 or 1000? What if I could show you that 10 million people shared my beliefs, would that make them any more valuable?

If your answer is yes, if you feel that my beliefs would be worthy of consideration if more people shared them, then I ask you why? Why do you think that the popularity of an idea adds to its value? After all, if popularity is the scale by which truth is discerned, then shouldn’t we all take a serious look at Islam? Since there is 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, they must have the truth. Or how about Hinduism? Certainly 1 billion people wouldn’t believe something if it wasn’t true.

However, with that said, I am guessing that you will answer no to my question. I am guessing that you will say that even if 10 million people shared my belief, you wouldn’t entertain the idea that it could be truth. I am guessing that you will say that the popularity of an idea adds no weight to its legitimacy.

So if I am correct and this is your answer, I now ask you this: If you don’t feel that popularity should be used as a measuring rod for truth, then why are you encouraging me to question my beliefs and conclusions just because they are not popular.

I realize that you are concerned for me, and I realize that you are trying to stir me out of the deception that you believe I am in. And you apparently felt/feel that the fact that I have not yet met anyone who shares my understanding should be recognized by me as a huge red flag. However, this fact troubles me not in the least. And the sole reason that this does not trouble me is because I believe that a truth is truth whether anyone believes it or not. A truth doesn’t need to be approved by the masses in order for it to stand as a truth.

The fact that two plus two equals four is a fact. It is a fact when 7 billion people believe it, and it is a fact even when only one person believes it (and even if no one believes it, it is still a fact). The value of this truth is not at all affected by its popularity.

So you see? The problem is, and the reason I can’t see this as a red flag is because I am 100 percent confident that the things I believe are truth, and because of that confidence, I am not bothered or alarmed in the least by the fact that I appear to be alone.

Now, if I had even the slightest bit of doubt that I was correct, then it might be wise to consider the fact that I appear to be alone in my beliefs and conclusion. But since I have no such doubt, this fact does not trouble me or concern me at all. (If you really understood how I came to understand these things, you would know why I am so confident that it is the truth. I am not saying that you would also believe it as truth, but I am only saying that you would understand why I am so confident that it is the truth).

With that all said, I should probably add that I am fairly certain that I am not the only one on this earth who currently understand these things. And if by chance I am currently the only one, I know for certain that that won’t be the case for too much longer. For God has promised a season in which his truth will be restored. And I am fairly certain that that season of restoration has either begun or it is about to begin.


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sermonindex

TMK wrote on 2015/5/18 13:59:48:

"Called to be saints" sounds like past tense to me.

For example, college freshmen were accepted as students at the college. It is not something in the future. They ARE students.

The same logic applies to the language regarding Paul's audience being give the right to be called sons of God. It's past tense, not future. To reach another conclusion requires twisting of scripture.


"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings” (Hebrews 2:10). God’s Master Plan is to make us perfect through sufferings so that we can share in Christ’s Glory and be joint heirs with Him. The suffering of believers is what produces sons of God.

T
TMK

Jesus was God's son before he suffered.

I am not saying that once you are saved God is done working on you. Of course He isn't.

D
dolfan

Jason

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14.

I cite this verse as only one important authority in the Word that speaks to the necessity of having brethren in agreement as to what truth is. Not that popularity secures anything, but that by design the biblical body of Christ must be many members and not only one. The functioning of those members requires multiplicity and accountability. In this current understanding that you embrace, there is neither. You have argued with the very gospel you say that you alone believe and know purely. Do you not see that by eliminating the entire church from being truly His and by asserting you and a handful of phantoms as the sole believers on earth who know the truth about the gospel that you are doing the very thing that you indict the whole historical church as guilty of doing?

S
sermonindex

What is this clear 'error' that Jason is in?

I asked some clarifying questions but didn't get any responses. He doesn't like Ray Comfort's way of evangelism, I don't remember any of Paul's writings that mentioned Ray Comfort.

I've seen two moderators criticize his 'false gospel' and he retorts with 'led astray'. I don't think either side is being hard/callous on the other, I'm just strongly concerned with jumping to conclusions and using damning language. (It's damning because 'false gospel's don't save...)

I find these words strange since 'By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another' (John 13:35). Someone isn't demonstrating the words of Jesus. Can we all please keep a watchful eye on our words?

I'd like to hear a detailed explanation of this 'false gospel'. Some of what Jason's writings remind me of Finney, other parts Calvin but this is where I'm confused.

S
sermonindex


Tim said:

Jason

Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14.

.

Tim,

Some of the Proverbs have a significant spiritual application. Some of the Proverbs have a significant secular application. And many of the Proverbs contain both. However, the Proverb you just quoted for my benefit should probably be placed in the "secular application” only box.

You see, the problem with using this verse in the context of this discussion we are having is that one has to then ask ”“ Ok, but who’s counsel do I seek and trust?

Let’s imagine for a moment that I came to Sermon Index as a Mormon who was seeking advice. What if I told everyone here that I began reading the Bible for myself and that I discovered some things that seemed to suggest that the Mormon "church” was not truly the way to life. I then reveal that I am considering leaving the Mormon "church” and its doctrines behind.

You would possible find this news quite exciting. And you would encourage me to continue on in my Biblical pursuit of truth.

But let’s then imagine that I returned the next day only to tell you that I changed my mind. And as you pursue the reasoning for my quick change of heart, I tell you that the Mormon elders showed me Proverbs 11:14. And because of that revelation, I decided that it was best to not go it alone but to instead discuss my concerns with my Mormon elders. And as I discussed things with them, I realized that I was being stubborn, arrogant, and foolish to think that I had all the answers. And as a result, I have decided to remain in the Mormon "church”.

If this were a real scenario, you would cry foul. And you would insist that the Mormon elders were only using that passage for their own agenda. You would insist that the verse was being misused and you would in fact encourage me to reject their counsel.

You see, that is the great problem of trying to give this passage a spiritual application. By doing so, all religious groups who use the Bible can use this verse as a means to discourage it adherents from forsaking doctrines that a large number of people hold as true.

When I have a question about the business I am in, I will seek out advice from others who are in the same business and will pay attention to the answers I am given. If I have a question about taxes, I will seek out an accountant. I am not at all opposed to receiving counsel on worldly and temporary matters. But on eternal things, I will entrust the well being of my soul to the one who called me and saved me. He is quite capable of revealing truth and error.


Tim, If you would have watched my video, you would see (or I at least hope you would) that we have been in a season of darkness and deception for the past 1900 years. And in order to protect God’s people from deception during this time, John told his people that they didn’t need any man to teach them (2nd John 2:18-27). John instead told them that they could entrust themselves to the care of the one who was in them.

Considering this dark season of time we are now in, why would any wise person allow others to influence what they hold as truth?

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sermonindex

LMH:

I think the greatest objection that most are making is in regards to my firm belief that the institution that we see on this earth that calls itself the church is a fraud that has no legitimate ties to the church that was born on Pentecost.

Remember, this thread began when I posted a link to a video that I recently made. I know that the video is long, and I know that it must at first seem very dull. But I encourage you to watch the video all the way through (or listen to the audio version) then come back and carefully read the thread through again. Then things might make a little bit more sense.

In regards to your concern about the tone of this thread, I have had no issues with it. I think that most of those who have posted a reply have done so out of concern for me. Even though I consider their concern misplaced, I do still feel that it is out of concern that they have spoken.

Hope this helps some.

Jason

D
dolfan

Jason,

I don't need to watch the whole video. I understand your argument. I disagree with it. I disagree that we are in a "season of darkness and deception for the past 1900 years", that the entire church is essentially a false entity preaching a false gospel. You have not made the case, either.

Your reasoning, if I can boil this down for everyone's consumption, is a syllogism arguing:

A. The true church preaches the true gospel.
B. The true gospel is not being preached.
C. Therefore, the church is not the true church.

You have yet to prove that the gospel that is preached is not the true gospel.

Now, everyone here, I believe, would agree that false gospels abound and false teachers abound. But, one has to take the specific false gospels and false teachers and cull them out, so to speak; the burden lies there. It is not the burden of the true church to prove itself to any believer by showing how it has eliminated infiltration by false teachers and false gospels. And, in any event, a failure of the ability in real time to do so does not constitute a nullity of the true church.

Let me start on that last point.

Galatia was a true church, as was Ephesus and Corinth. Paul addressed them as such, although each was infected at one time or another by false gospels from false teachers. The church has never been immune to, impenetrable by or impervious to false teaching. Yet, it remains the church.

Jesus addressed the church at Ephesus in Revelation. It was a true church. It had rejected false teaching (Nicolaitans), but had left its first love. It was this abandonment of its true love for Him that provoked Jesus to warn that He would remove its candlestick and its witness unless it repented. Jesus commended their intolerance of false teaching, but never threatened to remove their witness as a church over having not eradicated it at first sight.

Compare Pergamum. That church specifically tolerated Nicolaitans, and also taught that eating food sacrificed to idols was permissible and that sexual immorality was not immoral; yet it was still a true church, called such by Jesus. It was commanded to repent, or to be judged by His active opposition against the false teachers. It was never threatened with being nullified as a church, unlike Ephesus.

Both were subject to judgment, rightly so.

This brings me to another point. It seems to me that your line of thinking -- that what you consider a false gospel makes the church itself false for 1900 years now, and I do not agree with your premise on a globally, epochal false gospel and you have not proved it -- has essentially placed Jesus in an armchair instead of a throne.

Jesus said that "I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Right now, by your logic, He started with 3,120 on the day of Pentecost and has built it all the way up to 1 as of 5/19/2015. For His sake, I hope you're in good health.

I don't think you realize the implications of your theory. You impugn the character of Jesus, Jason. Jesus, who for less than a century endured serious error and idolatry in His churches in Asia before He wrote to them through His apostle, John, has for 20 times as long now sat in a celestial repose and allowed all of us heathen to mock God openly by preaching the "gospel" that isn't really, calling ourselves by His name and His "church" that isn't really, going into all the world with this "ungospel" by the power of the Holy Spirit that isn't really, baptizing 50 or however many generations in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- to what end? A sham, if you're right. And, not a patient God but a dope, if you're right.

I think you should have to defend that. Here.


O
Oracio

LoveMeekHope wrote:

What is this clear 'error' that Jason is in?

He is condemning to hell all so-called "institutional” and/or denominational churches and Christians who are part of those churches. He says that unless you repent (based on his understanding of repentance) and come out of your "institutional” church you will be condemned. This type of sentiment is not something new, it has been and is alive and well among many who hate all organized churches for whatever reason. Again, this is typical of those who are part of cults; they separate themselves from and condemn all churches. They think they have some special revelation that everyone else doesn’t have (aka elitism). It’s a form of pride that brings a certain type of delusion and spiritual self-destruction.

krautfrau wrote:

Greg

I do not separate myself in body, l meet with others even though they disagree with me and often they separate themselves from me when they discover what l believe or endeavour to silence me which l think is out of Gods will for them to do so.

and:

Greg

I have found believers who have read and believed the gospel that Jason is preaching but are still seeking to enter in themselves. I will happily fellowship with them or with those who are still under the cloud of deception as l love them and long for them to be out of bondage.

Then there are those who oppose the truth and want to get rid of me. I love them too and cannot judge them as l was once lost too. I have fellowship with those following Celtic Theology and am discovering the true gospel preached during those early years too.

But no, l have not found one man preaching this gospel in any church group. I don't recall reading that Jason has withdrawn himself from fellowshipping with others. I will not do that. I tried to join the Lydia group recently and was open about my beliefs but they rejected me despite saying they are transdenominational. God hates men who cause divisions which is what they did.

I consider men saved if they have victory over sin.


If you believe and teach that one must be completely sinless to be saved (which I believe you do), is it any wonder that other believers do not want to fellowship with you? I mean, how can I fellowship with someone who thinks I’m not saved because I’m not completely sinless? It is a serious difference of views. It’s not some petty difference over a non-essential issue.

S
sermonindex

Dolfan, Oracio, and Jason thank you for clearing up my understanding.

I honestly wouldn't concern myself with this kind of debate, partly because of Dolfan's latest response, it (this discussion) lacks substance/specifics.

Jason is being a counter-weight to something. I have no other way to look at this. Just because Jason may teach or say something it doesn't change our mutual internal truth, that we serve Jesus Christ.

He's at a place of passion, weren't we all?

Let's not mistake his zeal with understanding. His zeal could easily land him in a more constructive view of theology of the gospel.

So, let's pray for the passionate brother and not focus on what can easily divide us.

S
sermonindex

Saints,

We do not endorse the teaching on SermonIndex that the institutional churches (all of them) are apostate for the last 1900 years. We will not allow allow SermonIndex as a platform for those to expose those views. As has been alluded to, to tell people that they are "believing the lie" (2 Thessalonians 2:11) for staying in *any* Church is false teaching and not handling the word of God rightly. We do pray for Jason to see this as a very dangerous opinion and that as he alluded to that he has found no one else in 10 years who agreed with his doctrine and gospel he believes. That is a dangerous place to be. May we all seek fellowship with each other and learn from others who have gone before us in the Church.

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