Geraldine's and Spitfire's several questions have brought this topic to mind. I hope we will look very carefully into scripture to see 'where' 'when' and 'who' Jesus healed (as well as 'how') and compare this with our experience.For many years the preaching I heard did not address my need for inner healing, with a clarity which I could recognise through the fog of continual strivings to 'arrive' at a place of peace, where I could honestly say I knew God had given me what I believed could be received from Him (by way of salvation). I did not know what was missing, I just knew I did not have it! It was terrifying to begin to acknowledge the undeniable persistence of this indefinable issue to myself only. There were good reasons for this fear and partly, that is my point. Retrospectively, I can take full responsibility for my part in my deafness, but remain confident there are many more like me out there! I would like preachers to take greater responsibility for covering this aspect of gospel ground more thoroughly. Is that fair?Having eventually received many layers of healing over time, I am more convinced of its importance to the church, but, I have also heard of an evangelist who does not 'believe in' healing. I see this is as a reason some people don't enter the Kingdom more easily; then, they are branded - lovingly? - as 'sinners' 'disobedient' 'apathetic' or 'weak'. Subsequently, when those seriously in need have not had the life-changing experience they were promised, they rightly sense they have nothing to report despite putting their faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sin(s) and believing for eternal life. And then, those outside the church have even less chance of 'hearing' words which will connect them to a meaningful salvation.The effect of failing to make healing an area of expertise within the church is one reason church members seem to go hot and cold, show promise and enthusiasm - then run out of steam, lack motivation and find excuses not to serve. It cannot all be put down to pure selfishness or lack of vision. There are good spiritual reasons to get a handle on.Precisely because this could be an emotive discussion it's in the Lounge where I hope we can keep a relaxed and compassionate perspective on the issues which may arise if we are honest. I do want this to stir us up to greater faith and understanding. :)I found this useful extract on the internet...In both Hebrew and English, the word ‘healing’ is related to the word ‘whole’. In Greek, the word sozo means both to save and to heal.God identified himself to us from the beginning as a God who heals (Exodus 15.26). The healing he offers is a comprehensive one which eventually will touch spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5.23). To know God is to receive life, abundant life, spiritual life which may, even in this world of death, prove itself in the healing of both emotional and physical pain (John 10.37-38). That is a message which is of profound interest to the many people both inside and outside the church who are looking for a faith that works. Healing is both metaphor and reality, and it is not intended as an ‘in-house perk’ for Christians – it is a fundamental expression of the gospel itself.Back to the drawing boardIf healing and evangelism are to be regarded together as ways of offering the wholeness which God wishes to bring us, what implications does that carry for our own practice?..For the complete article: http://www.alisonmorgan.co.uk/Healing%20and%20evangelism.htm QuestionsHow much is it the responsibility of the individual believer to lay hold of the healing they need, from God Himself, after believing the gospel and, how much is it the responsiblity of the evangelist to declare and minister this truth to the uncommitted heart? Is there any scriptural reason we should require commitment from comers-to-Jesus-for-healing before they have received healing?
Healing - who 'gets' it?
Hi Dorcas. Since you made reference to me personally, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say what's really on my mind after reading your initial post.I gave up on healing, prosperity, everything.It wasn't until I stopped seeking anything from God other than just to know him, that I received life. I've decided that real life is only for those who are ready to abandon this life. The beautiful thing is, we don't deserve healing or wholeness, but God has promised it to those who love him. The question is, will we die in faith? In other words, will I follow him whether he heals me or not in this life? Will I still declare that he is my healer? My deliverer? Lord of All? Will I worship him with as much enthusiasm as the one I'm looking at who got their healing? Their prosperity? Or will I feel jipped?Maybe I didn't really address your question. Sorry. Love, Dian.
I appreciate your post, Dian, as you raise several valid points. The amount that you did address my question was a good start to the thread. Thank you. The beautiful thing is, we don't deserve healing or wholeness, but God has promised it to those who love him. In this, you suggest we must love God in order to receive from Him. Of course, if we love Him, we will receive from Him but part of my question is, can healing be offered to those who do not love Him yet? If so, should we be offering it as a function of evangelism?
In this, you suggest we must love God in order to receive from Him. Of course, if we love Him, we will receive from Him but part of my question is, can healing be offered to those who do not love Him yet? If so, should we be offering it as a function of evangelism?I know how I'm thinking these days. I definetly don't present a case for salvation by encouraging people to believe that they should come to God for any other reason than that he is worthy of their life. I tell people they deserve to be in hell, anything less than that is mercy. In other words, I don't present the good news of the gospel with the addendum of anything earthly. I may still be off in trying to follow you here, Sis.Maybe what I am trying to say is, I believe we will be made whole, but it will happen through abandonment. If the Son has set you free, you shall be free indeed! Love, Dian.
OK. You're forcing me out into the open, here! :-) This is a verse which greatly comforted me when I was trying to make sense of my condition.Proverbs 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear? Again you raise a fair point for further discussion - whether mental, emotional and psychological health is 'earthly' and therefore dispensable under the good of abandonment to the Spirit?In other words, I don't present the good news of the gospel with the addendum of anything earthly. I may still be off in trying to follow you here, Sis.Maybe what I am trying to say is, I believe we will be made whole, but it will happen through abandonment. If the Son has set you free, you shall be free indeed! To elaborate my question further, how do we deal with the brokenness of those who have been sinned against? Sure, the 'salvation' aspect of the gospel deals with their sinfulness but how do they (we) get the 'healing' aspect which deals with the 'sinned-against' portion of their (our) 'spiritual' need? Surely this is the more obvious healing which Jesus ministered to crowds of individuals? Only at a spiritual level are we 'healed' from our propensity to sin; this has to be worked out faithfully in our 'earthly' life, day after day, for it to appear.Romans 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. What do we experience of being raised in Christ to walk in newness of life?Psalm 22:14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws. 16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, What kind of resurrection do we proclaim?
Let me make a statement. Now I'm taking this statement from presonal experience rather than scriptural doctrine so.....take it for what its worth. In life when I'm where ever if I see someone depressed or lame, blind sick ect... I normally ingage them in conversation and let them know I'm simpathic toward thier condition. I tell them about the Awesome power of Jesus Christ and ask them if they'd mind if I prayed for them.Normally I pray for them on the spot. My prayers are always for the need and secondly I ask God to reveal Himself to them through Jesus Christ. Next ----offenses---I posted in another thread a book thats a must read by John Bevere called "Bait of satan". It's a good book on dealing with hurts recieved from other in the body of believers and out. All in all , the whole areana of healing is still pretty much a mystery to me even though I preach it , teach it and practice it as lead by the Holy Spirit in ministering to others.Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break......Jesus is soooo gentle with our bruises. Bro. Daryl
dohzman, Yes! Yes! Yes! :-D I am deeply encouraged. This is like the 'no pressure' ministry Jesus had and which He sent is disciples to do.In life when I'm where ever if I see someone depressed or lame, blind sick ect... I normally ingage them in conversation and let them know I'm simpathic toward thier condition.Also, I am challenged by your compassion. I tell them about the Awesome power of Jesus Christ and ask them if they'd mind if I prayed for them. Normally I pray for them on the spot. My prayers are always for the need and secondly I ask God to reveal Himself to them through Jesus Christ.I am genuinely excited to find one other person whose experience is similar, although mine is much less random - which is entirely my fault.All in all , the whole areana of healing is still pretty much a mystery to me even though I preach it , teach it and practice it as lead by the Holy Spirit in ministering to others. Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break......Jesus is soooo gentle with our bruises.One of the things I hope this thread will discuss is definitions of 'bruises' and how ok it is for Christians to take time to get them fixed. It is I feel sure, but we are reluctant. Sometimes, there seems to be confusion between this and 'suffering' for the Lord.
First of all, I've noticed that 10 out of 10 people die. Some die healthy, others die full of disease. Some die young, some die old. I know there have been some who went straight to heaven on crutches or in a wheel chair, while others went straitght to hell in bodies the world would drool over. So healing of the physical body has nothing to do with salvation.The missing link is this. Jesus said that He did not say or do anything, unless the Father first told Him or showed Him. When He went about healing, He was sent by the Father. He did not go out on His own, or by "faith". He went in obedience after spending time alone with the Father. So what makes us think we can do differently? Why is it that we think we can just "pray the prayer of faith", and God should be forced into a place of supernatural submission? Please consider the man at the temple gate in the book of Acts. When Peter and John passed by, he cried out to them. Don't you think that if he had been there for "years" that Jesus had also passed him by many times? Why was he not healed by the Master? Was it his lack of faith? How cruel is that? God's ways are above our ways. His understanding and wisdom are far above our own. Why is it we think we have to "figure it all out" and understand in order to be effective in His kingdom. Why not just go to God day by day and ask Him to lead us and guide us. If He sends us to pray for the sick, you can rest assured that they will recover. But if He has not sent us, then all the prayer in the world will not raise them up.Jesus was summoned to the tomb of Lazarus. I'm certain He wanted to leave right away. But the Father made Him wait. He had to wait for the freedom to do what God had promised, even though it was good and He had faith. Obedience unto God is key and paramount to effective ministry. Remember it is the Holy Spirit who gives severally as He wills, not as we will. Yes it is so noble to pray for the sick. But we must remember, that if we have not heard from the Father, we are acting on presumption. That is where people get hurt and discouraged. They are told they didn't have enough faith. How cruel is that? A spirit that is whole and healthy will produce a body that is in better state of health than a person who is a sinner. Personal relationship with God will bring inner peace, regardless of the condition of the physical body. Guilt, despair, and sin will bring stress that taxes the body and shortens its life span, generally speaking. Do I believe in healing? Absolutely. But I know that my God is more interested in the health of my spirit than my physical body. If my spirit is saved and in fellowship with Him, by the blood of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, then all is well. If not, nothing is right. Don't we far too often place too much emphasis on physical healing rather than spiritual salvation? I think we do. I was in this church for a time and was part of the praise team. The pastor would often ask people to call out their prayer needs. Since the majority of the congregation was in their later years, 99% of the requests were for physical healing. Was there no need for spiritual wholeness by faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified? I can tell you of a certainty there was, yet it was hardly ever requested of God. How do I know? All I had to do is look at their faces. Why? I didn't see anyone who looked like they had been in His presence. How can you tell if someone has been in His presence? Because in His presence there is fullness of joy. There was no joy on their faces.Oh the sin that soaks the church in this hour. Yet the cry is for the physical, ignoring the sin that produced it's ailment in the first place. We look upon the outward parts, but God looks upon the heart.A few years ago, I met a believer who had a couple years prior been shot through the neck. The wound made him talk in a raspy voice. It also made it very difficult for him to walk, even with a walker. He was blinded in one eye. His wife and children left him. He had nowhere to turn, but to God. I asked him if he had not been shot, did he think he would be saved today? His reply, "absolutely not!"Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and then all these things shall be added unto you. If God sends you to touch a sin soaked heart, and physical healing will aid the process, you can rest assured, the Holy Spirit will supply all you need to convince this person that God is after them with mercy, grace, and love. If God does not send you, you are wasting your time and not representing the kingdom of God. Your ministry is not valid when it is based on presumption. Be led by the Spirit of God and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. There is nothing wrong with sympathy and kindness of spirit. But we dare not presume that these good feelings toward others is all that is necessary to get wholeness completed in their lives. God must direct all we say and do, or we labor in vain.
God must direct all we say and do, or we labor in vain.Lahry, yes! I think dohzman said the same. I preach it , teach it and practice it as lead by the Holy Spirit in ministering to othersMark 3: 20 And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 And when his friends heard [of it], they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. 24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. My earlier questions are around what this meant in Jesus's practice, as an example of what our own might be, (in the kinds of healing we expect) not only for others, but also for ourselves, when perhaps it becomes less a matter of being led by the Spirit and more a matter of allowing Him access to our pain.
Hi,I am really enjoying your conversation. I would like to add a few words as I feel the Holy Spirit has been speaking to me on this subject directly for some time now.Who gets it? Our church is a Mennonite Brethren church. It is usually low key, nobody speaks in tongues at church, dancing and raucous worship is reserved for the younger crowd. Anyway, we had a guest preacher come in from England, and said that he would be speaking about healing that evening, and as the Holy Spirit has had this subject on my heart for some time, I went. There was a cloud of skepticism in the room, but also the Spirit was there. The preacher, near the end of the talk said that there was somebody there with a sore shoulder (sport injury) to which three believers raised their hands. One of them was invited up to be healed before everyone.WOW, this is what I came to see. I believed that if I could only see how it is done, I will be able to do it too. I have many times been urged by the Spirit to lay hands on people, but remain disobedient. What will they think? What if I blow it?So the guy goes up and is prayed for. OK move your arm around, does it feel better? No. Pray more…. Better yet? Not really. Nothing happened to the guy. No healing.Elsewhere in the church:When the preacher asked if anyone had a sore shoulder, another man, non-believer, ducked his head down to hide because he didn’t want to go up to the front. All the time the preacher is speaking to the guy at the front, this guy’s shoulder is starting to burn, while he tries to hide in the pews.The end result is his shoulder is healed completely, he sleeps through the night, and last week I heard that he was recently asked at a home group if he believed in Jesus, to which he replied, “ I do now”. Even with a room full of doubt, God was faithful to that preacher for speaking His word. Bodily healing can lead to spiritual healing. God rewarded the preacher’s faith, and not that of the man who was healed. But the sins of the healed man were forgiven.Why did Jesus speak to thousands at a time? I think it had much to do with his healing. It got people to come out to witness the power of God.God healed an unbeliever’s shoulder as a sign to him, but also a sign to us. Three believers with sore shoulders got nothing. I believe that that was because, being believers, they lacked the faith in miracles.Jesus did less miracles around his home town, not because it was not God’s will that they be healed, but that they lacked faith in the carpenter’s son. John 14:11 to 14 Believe me when I say that I am in the father and the father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it.If you can’t walk on water, it is not because it is not God’s will. It is because you have not yet reached sufficient faith to make it happen.It is God’s will that we do miracles, not that we make excuses for why we don’t. It is God’s will that we love God and one another. Healing someone is not against God’s will. If you have the gift of faith, or healing or tongues, or whatever. It is yours to use because it is right to use it to glorify God. You don’t wait for God to direct you to pray, that is just a given.
I was over my old pastor's house a couple of weekends ago. He and his wife shared a wonderful story about something that happened in their house during a time of revival.One of the older ladies from their church had been sinking in her health for some time, and it became evident that she was not long for the world. It wasn't that she was old so much as she was suffering from a variety of debilitating conditions simultaneously. Her health began to rapidly decline and during a group prayer meeting, she slumped to the ground. Her breathing had stopped, and they could not find a pulse.I think they called an ambulance or something, but it was suggested that they lay hands on her and pray - which they did. In the middle of their prayer, she revived, stood up, and was speechless for a few seconds with a confused look on her face then began to stutter out these words: "I feel like I am being healed it is all tingling inside - I can feel it! I can feel it! in my lungs and shoulders - something is happening - I can feel it! -- AND I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IN HEALING!!"I loved the testimony! My pastor's wife, who is quite a good mimic, really captured the scene - I laughed and laughed - I could totally picture this old woman saying "I don't even believe in healing!" Dan/\\/\\/\\
DougieB,I love your post here. It is exactly my point, in certain circumstances. Once a person has been healed they believe! Hallelujah!There is more to discuss about faith, though.What you describe about feeling led to pray for healing sometimes, is exactly what happens to me. However, I do not 'think' of it as being 'my' faith which will heal the person; I think of it as being God's faith. I will qualify that statement in two ways. The first goes back to when I was coming to the Lord as a teenager. Long story, but 'faith' was a problem to me. In the end, in desperation, I asked God to 'give' me a 'gift' of faith. He did, but, I ever thought of it as His faith rather than mine. Then, there is this verse, which I heard preached as 'Hold the faithfulness of God': Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. The word 'faith' appears only once in the Old Testament. All the other times, it is 'faithfulness' - a very rounded and robust declamation of this aspect of God's nature. It is comfortingly strong!There are also several references to the faith of Christ. To me, the most striking is in John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.Here I see that Jesus, (as Lahry was saying about the need for a specific word regarding anything we do in Jesus Name), also needing that word from His Father, regarding His forthcoming death and resurrection. This too, is another comforting glimpse of how God works with men.Galatians 2:16 and Philippians 3:9 refer to 'the faith of Christ' which superceded faith in the Law, and if you look for them, there are other allusions, which, if you unpick the grammar, cannot but be Christ's rather than my faith. Therefore, when asking the Lord to heal someone, I believe I am calling on His faith in His word through me to the other person, to make healing good. This might sound complicated, but it actually simplifies the transaction, as I am not asking them to 'believe' in their own strength, or to trust in my faith, but to trust in God's faith in His own word. The other thing to be said is that unless the person is quickened by God's word which one has spoken to them, the timing for prayer may be wrong. In fact, 'faith' (the substance of things hoped for) springs up directly in response to hearing a specific word from God. Remaining within these limits is not just safe, it is necessary. I would hesitate to claim either a gift of faith or a gift of healing, but I am open to be used in this ministry, as the Lord guides. Now, experience encourages 'my faith' in 'His faith' in His word which creates faith in me.This brings us straight back to the non-Christian who was healed in body first. Experience encouraged his faith in God's creative word that he could be saved.
dann - a BIG AMEN! That is a wonderful testimony to wasting no time in being obedient!
That is way cool bro.! I have to admit when you're preaching sometimes you can sense the power of God for healing and sometimes you can't. But I've observed the Lord heal despite me. And there have been times when my faith was flying high and nothing.....All I can say is God's awesome and sovereign! Bless you for that testimony. Bro. Daryl
Faith must always have an object. We place our faith in....whatever. Some have faith in their own faith, sad, but true. The faith of the saint is to be placed squarely upon the finished work of Jesus Christ our Lord at Calvary. If the cross don't provide it, it ain't gonna happen. His work and His victory were total and complete. Is there healing in it. Of course there is, by His stripes we are healed. God loves to heal. God does not like to be manipulated by scripture taken out of context or used for selfish glory. I love the story of the Israelites in the dessert, when because of unbelief, God sent snakes among them. But He also provided a deliverence, the pole with the two snakes on it, you know like the doctors of today use. If bitten, all they had to do was to look at the pole, and they were healed from the snake bite. Now I'm not recommending you get a pole with snakes on it. What I am recommending is that we look to Jesus, our redeemer and trust in His love and mercy, His grace and lovingkindness. If we are healed, thanks be to God. If not, thanks be to God. Our faith in God heals the body and heals the spirit. God has one purpose in mind, basically, and that is to keep us totally dependent on Him. If a person is healed of a particular infirmity, perhaps they would get off in the flesh and forget about God. God would rather see them press on in their infirmity and to jump and shout over healing and then take off alone on their own. It's simple, yet ever so complex. Just trust God for everything, and in all things give thanks and praise. If God loves us enough to send His only Son to die in our place, don't you think He loves us enough to take care of all our other trivialities? I do too. So let's just lay it all down at His feet. Yes, ask Him for healing, yours and others. He may stir you heart or give you a special anointing. It may be temporary or last a life time. It's all God business. We provide faith, faith in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. Nothing shall seperate us from His love, for we are saved to the uttermost.
Faith is a funny thing. Gal's says faith worketh by love, and we know that love has to do with our conscience toward God. That's why Jesus said that in the end time the love of many would wax cold, and when He returns will he find faith on the earth? In the Book of Hebrews we see the blood of Jesus used to purge our conscience..... John's epistles talk about prayer with a clear conscience and the results of that kind of prayer. So while faith is important it's not the foundation from which miracles and healing flow, but it is one of the elements. I think when Paul and the others wrote they made certain assumptions in the knowledge already possessed by thier readers. Kinda like if we were to write a friend a letter, a stranger could pick it up and get a general idea but there would also be alot of room for misunderstanding or even misinterpetation of that letter. I believe thats what happens today much. Blessing. Bro. Daryl
I am SO out of my league with you guys, but I love this topic and I think we are missing something here.When He returns will he find faith on the earth? This is a challenge! Let’s not let Him down.I am pretty new to this stuff, but, in my bible “NIV”, it seems to me that a lot of Christ’s time on earth was spent healing people. I don’t think anyone who came to Him was let down.A continuing theme throughout was “because of your FAITH” something miraculous happened. Or, “because of their lack of FAITH” nothing miraculous happened.Jesus said ask, ask, ask and it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. I cannot find where He says the Father will do otherwise.I am sure you all know this, but James 5: 15 and 16 read:And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.If we are to continue as part of Christ’s body on this earth – we need to follow his example. But we don’t. We make excuses.When He returns will he find faith on this earth?When He returns will he find faith on this earth?
LahryYou made many interesting comments on my post about faith. I'm a little sorry if it cuts across your way of explaining yours, but what I said is my testimony of how God dealt with me. It was a very big deal to me, for Him to give me the faith I lacked, so I could enter into a relationship with Him.Perhaps that enables me to see 'faith' as separate from myself and my abilities, in a way with which those whose powers of trust have not been damaged, don't need help.If you read the beginning of the thread, you'll see I am also interested in those intangible healings of the mind, psyche (soul) and emotions, which do not function normally in some and very badly in others. To me, this is a very valid part of the gospel for those who need it to impact upon their lives.I heard, recently, a testimony from a mother of three who used to be angry all the time and I mean, angry all the time. Her family members avoided her as much as possible. But, being from a Christian family herself, she was persuaded to an Alpha course, where she was challenged to believe. After taking the plunge into personal faith in Christ, she stopped being angry immediately. She was so un-angry she was incredulous. For two whole days, nothing she or anyone did, could make her angry. She was so transformed that her children and husband came to faith and within a year of her conversion she was being trained locally for evangelism and youth work. That's progress.I checked up on Moses (Numbers 21:7 - 9) and I think you'll find there was only one snake on the pole. It figures with Eden and John 3, I think. You mentionedby His stripes we are healedand I am still thinking about this. Not only is it an Old Testament prophecy, but, it implies the work on the cross is separate. Please don't ask me to explain further. I've been thinking about this for a long time. I'm acknowledging it as important because when scripture uses two completely separate and distinct ways to make a statement, there is usually more going on at a spiritual level, than meets the eye.If we are healed, thanks be to God. If not, thanks be to God. Our faith in God heals the body and heals the spirit. I notice you don't mention the soul at all. Was than an oversight? And are you saying here that if we are not healed, it is because our faith is defficient? Isn't this a very good reason to depend on the faith of Christ?God has one purpose in mind, basically, and that is to keep us totally dependent on Him. I can't see any reason in scripture for Him to not heal, in order to obtain our greater dependency.Just trust God for everything, and in all things give thanks and praise. If God loves us enough to send His only Son to die in our place, don't you think He loves us enough to take care of all our other trivialities?Again, are you suggesting that a need for healing is a triviality? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here, following 'Just trust God for everything' as, if I'm trusting God for healing, I don't think either He or I consider it a triviality, since Jesus took a near-death beating to obtain it for me. Again, I'm not wishing to be harsh with your opinion, I'm hoping we will end up on the same page, by the grace of God.I do too. So let's just lay it all down at His feet. Yes, ask Him for healing, yours and others. He may stir you heart or give you a special anointing. It may be temporary or last a life time. It's all God business. We provide faith, (emphasis mine) faith in God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.Although I have come to think of my testimony as 'my' gospel I don't think I'll ever be able to depend on 'my' faith as something which I can provide so that God can use me - if that's what you mean. At least, so far, I would consider 'my faith' as the weakest link! :-( I will look for a few more scriptures on 'the faith of Christ', to share more of that in a future post.
DougieB - another BIG AMEN! Thanks for your exhortations! :-)
dohzman, any possibility you could expound a bit more on the connections between love, faith and conscience, especially with some scripture?Gal's says faith worketh by love, and we know that love has to do with our conscience toward God. That's why Jesus said that in the end time the love of many would wax cold, and when He returns will he find faith on the earth? In the Book of Hebrews we see the blood of Jesus used to purge our conscience..... John's epistles talk about prayer with a clear conscience and the results of that kind of prayer. My instant response is that an un-clear conscience undermines faith, not because we have none, but because guilt is such a deadener. It leaves us depressed and feeling far from God; also far from being in a position to bring God nigh to anyone, let alone an unbeliever.On 'love', again, is this an 'emotion', a 'gift' or is it a 'quality of attitude'? I have found I can do what is right without 'feeling' anything - not a flicker of warmth towards the person receiving. It's weird and it's not satisfactory. However, I attribute the leading to a course of action as from the Spirit, the power to obey God, as being entirely from Him and the authority to pray in His Name, again, as being entirely from Him. Do I sound like an emotional cripple? Probably. Some of us need healing to touch these kinda parts of our lives, though; to diminish the hope that we may one day be more whole in this area of human 'being', is unwelcome. Having said this, I do have 'love', though I have difficulty discerning it. (The Lord once revealed Himself to me as pure Compassion, or perhaps I would be as hard as nails.)So while faith is important it's not the foundation from which miracles and healing flow, but it is one of the elements.Please also say more about this from scripture and in the light of DougieB's post, if you can?Thanks to all who are replying here.
Dorcas,You wrote:What you describe about feeling led to pray for healing sometimes, is exactly what happens to me. However, I do not 'think' of it as being 'my' faith which will heal the person; I think of it as being God's faith. I will qualify that statement in two ways. The first goes back to when I was coming to the Lord as a teenager. Long story, but 'faith' was a problem to me. In the end, in desperation, I asked God to 'give' me a 'gift' of faith. He did, but, I ever thought of it as His faith rather than mine.I don’t think it is “my” faith either that will heal a person. I think that God’s power is released (as a reward?) by faith. What you think of as God’s faith, I guess I think of as His power.I have a long faith story too, and I type slowly. I condense.My favorite time with God is at church. I often go in and just pick some random person to pray for. Sometimes you know what they need prayer for and sometimes you don’t. But just praying for someone else, I believe, blesses me more than anything else I have ever done.One day in January, 2004 I walked in and saw a wonderful lady I know, who is also the leader of prayer ministries at our church bent over in serious prayer. So I picked her to pray for. The neatest thing happened. I kind of left the service. I found myself holding her up against a wall, like on my shoulders, I didn’t know if she was trying to get over the wall or not. But I knew it was my job to hold her up for that service. The wall was non descript, you would think that standing against a wall for so long, you would figure out what it was made of or whatever. But I didn’t.It’s a pretty large service of about 600 people and I was not sitting close to her at all. At the end of the service, she came over to me and told me that God had told her I had something to tell her. Well it was an amazing experience to me but I had no info to help her on what she was praying about. He just wanted us both to know that he hears us.She saw me a few weeks later and told me that God had a word for me. It was “Love the world through the gift”. I puzzled over that statement, for a long time and prayed about it and did not understand. Shorter, shorter.March 29, 2005 at 3:15 PM the audible word came in “The gift is Faith”. Then I was immediately at 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophesy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.I did not even know that faith is a gift, and who would want it? I mean everybody has faith, Right?But I think that Faith in the Christ’s life, death and resurrection (Saving faith) is only the start of faith.I still don’t know how He would have me love the world through the gift, but I am confident he will reveal that to me also.Anyway I’d like to hear your story. It would feed my faith.
Faith must always have an object. We place our faith in....whatever. Some have faith in their own faith, sad, but true. The faith of the saint is to be placed squarely upon the finished work of Jesus Christ our Lord at Calvary. If the cross don't provide it, it ain't gonna happen. His work and His victory were total and complete. Is there healing in it. Of course there is, by His stripes we are healed. God loves to heal. God does not like to be manipulated by scripture taken out of context or used for selfish glory. does this mean you hold to the teaching of 'healing in the atonement'?
DougieB,'Anyway I’d like to hear your story. It would feed my faith.'I'm lacing it into my posts as I can. May I say, though, I am very blessed by what you've shared about your story! Thank you! And I'm encouraged, as till I came here, I did not 'hear' anyone else putting into words just quite so excactly, (dohzman) my own experience.Your time of prayer for the lady is also something I recognise. Some people would call that 'intercession', perhaps? It is a solid joining of intent through the Spirit, with another believer. For me too, it is usually 'one'. Although the same can happen when praying for several people in the same situation. Just as well we are not required to be able to pass exams in how we feel God uses us!I have wondered what I can share more and I promise I will, but I'm hoping Lahry will rejoin the discussion and answer some of the questions put to him.March 29, 2005 at 3:15 PM the audible word came in “The gift is Faith”. Then I was immediately at 1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophesy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.I did not even know that faith is a gift, and who would want it? I mean everybody has faith, Right?But I think that Faith in the Christ’s life, death and resurrection (Saving faith) is only the start of faith.I still don’t know how He would have me love the world through the gift, but I am confident he will reveal that to me also.There is also this scripture, which describes 'faith' as a 'gift'.1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Does this clear something up for you?
Jesus sent the 12, and then the 72 out to heal the sick and say "the Kingdom of God has come near to you". It seems to me he was saying to his followers, "demonstrate the Kingdom and then explain it" That said, the goal must be to bring people to God, not to an emotional experience.The Apostle Paul asked God to remove the "thorn in his flesh" various times. I think it is right to seek healing of God, but we also be ready to accept that "His grace is sufficient for us" should that be His reply. Paul obviously wasn't depending on this healing to perform his God-given ministry, nor to sustain his faith.I alway find it challenging that the man Jesus delivered of a "Legion" of demons, didn't need any further counciling, nor physological support. He pleaded to go with Jesus, but Jesus sent him on his way to announce the gospel. Surely Jesus considered him ready to do so. The point to me seems to be, that we need to seek the face of God and we will receive all the healing we need.The bible also states that signs will follow the preaching of the gospel. Could that mean, that if God doesn't confirm the gospel that is preached, it isn't His? Again I think we need to seek the Vine, and fruits will abound. God bless youPassingThru
I don’t think it is “my” faith either that will heal a person.I think that God’s power is released (as a reward?) by faith. What you think of as God’s faith, I guess I think of as His power.That is very problematic and much of the reasoning behind the whole WOF/Prosperity line of thinking. It places the onus on the wrong sight, at best it is by faith that we are released by the power of God.It grants this idea that God is 'stuck' until we help Him out by bringing the key to unlock Him out of the mess He has gotten Himself into. Or that our own words are carriers of some magical or mandated formula that God has to respond to...'speaking things into existence' or 'faith is a force and is released by the words of your mouth'The old saying, "God can do nothing but by prayer" is not a misnomer, it is an alignment of getting our thoughts, our petitions, our wishes to be subservient to and ultimately meshed with His thought. Then it will be true what Jesus spoke of,"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:13-15"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD". Isa 55:8"It is not so true that “Prayer changes things” as that prayer changes me, and then I change things; consequently we must not ask God to do what He has created us to do. For instance, Jesus Christ is not a social reformer; He came to alter us first, and if there is any social reform to be done on earth, we must do it. God has so constituted things that prayer on the basis of Redemption alters the way a man looks at things. Prayer is not a question of altering things externally, but of working wonders in a man’s disposition."Prayer...or scare....
the goal must be to bring people to God, not to an emotional experienceYes, I agree with your implication that it is possible to have an emotional experience which appears not to signify an encounter with God, but, how many people have an encounter with God in which they are convicted, saved, healed or inspired, and it is not also an emotional experience of the best kind? Surely, this is valid? Acts 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.'..I think it is right to seek healing of God, but we also be ready to accept that "His grace is sufficient for us" should that be His reply... nor to sustain his faith'Paul makes clear the problem is in his flesh. This may be a critical difference between the healing he desired and that without which Legion could not function. I alway find it challenging that the man Jesus delivered of a "Legion" of demons, didn't need any further counciling, nor physological support. He pleaded to go with Jesus, but Jesus sent him on his way to announce the gospel. Surely Jesus considered him ready to do so.Absolutely! Legion had a testimony, as a result of his encounter with Jesus. Something I noticed in this event too, was that Jesus came to land near enough for Legion to see Him. Notice too, despite being so possessed, Legion was able to choose to run towards Jesus. This is an important insight as to his receptiveness to be delivered and healed. 2 Timothy 1:7 for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind;we need to seek the face of God and we will receive all the healing we needThis is exactly one of the points I hoped some would take away from this thread. Emotional and mental health is available. We may not receive obvious, outward physical healing, but there is a different sort of healing (which does have a 'physical' component, if recovery from addictions is included in this realm) available for those who need it. The complexity of this unravelling should not detain us from seeking it, as God is well able to coach us through the process, if we will approach Him with the willingness to be changed. This is not just a 'pulling down of strongholds' for some, but a blessed reconstruction into 'health'.
I don’t think it is “my” faith either that will heal a person. I think that God’s power is released (as a reward?) by faith. What you think of as God’s faith, I guess I think of as His power. (DougieB) That is very problematic and much of the reasoning behind the whole WOF/Prosperity line of thinking. It places the onus on the wrong sight, at best it is by faith that we are released by the power of God. (crsschk)I'm not sure what WOF stands for, but I've heard of Prosperity teaching, so thanks for trying to divide between the bone and the marrow on this one. Would appreciate some clarification on where these quotes came from " 'speaking things into existence' or 'faith is a force and is released by the words of your mouth' " The second of the two I cannot endorse, but, in the event of praying according to His will, is there not a sense in which (particularly in the case of praying for someone else for their healing) that as one prays in the Spirit, 'faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God' to their situtaion?
Hi Dorcas,WOF= 'Word Of Faith"Here is a bit on it, http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/posit.htmThe second of the two I cannot endorse, but, in the event of praying according to His will, is there not a sense in which (particularly in the case of praying for someone else for their healing) that as one prays in the Spirit, 'faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God' to their situtaion?Sure, when it is the word of God that is doing the speaking, so to speak... The problem with the reasonings behind 'releasing' things (and not to overstate it and that may not have been the intent of the previous posting, but this is often common type language coming out of this particular line of teaching) and speaking forth things, is in this idea that "What you say" has some sort of magical quality to it, in other words, you are in essence a 'mini-me' version of God, that you can speak forth things into existence. It's a heretical teaching and severe twisting of scripture. It only gets worse by the blending and applying these principals to exactly what you just mentioned, a common retort that is used to support their position (not that you are doing so). There has been a lot of ground covered in this area elsewhere here, and is also something I was personally caught up in for a time, could always point you to it if you like.
Hi Crsschk,I am new at Christianity (2001 to 2002ish). I decided at the beginning of this walk that I would read the bible 4 times through front to back before I picked up any other Christian literature. People have given me a lot of books to read, and I am sure I have said a lot of stupid things in this time. But my goal was to be able to compare everything else I read based on some level of understanding of the bible.I am now in the book of Acts on my 5th time though the bible. I am told by other Christians that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are cults, but until I study into that issue, if I get the time, I am not going to make that accusation because neither group is mentioned in the bible by name.The link on WOF – word of faith, that you included on your last post goes to a site that appears dedicated to slamming a whole group of people.I am reminded of two things, I think that there is a proverb that says something like, every man sounds smart until you hear the other side of the story. I don’t know whether what he has on this site is true or not, but it surely is one sided.Second is that we are to love one another, which does not come out in that site.The site you linked to also refers to the temporary gifts of the Spirit. The only place the word temporary comes up in my new testament is 2Co 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. The Mini-me, label implies someone who works for Dr. Evil.Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has healed you.” I said that I believe God’s power is released (as a reward?) by faith. I don’t know where I got that idea. He had no sight, there was an event, he had sight, Jesus explanation credits the event to his faith. Somehow I missed all those other complications.Dorcas,I do have a really good story about my wife being healed (as a reward?) by her faith. I would just have to be careful how I word it, so as not to offend.
Hi Mike,I appreciated the link in your last post. I am much clearer now and see why you are concerned.this idea that "What you say" has some sort of magical quality to it, in other words, you are in essence a 'mini-me' version of God, that you can speak forth things into existence. It's a heretical teaching and severe twisting of scripture.My experience of praying for people is very limited. I have shied away from becoming part of a ministry team (or undergoing 'training') as I don't feel - something ... I don't want to find myself in a position where I'm praying for someone from a position of no revelation and they are expecting me to have a word from God for them. Maybe faith for this will grow, but for now, I feel more constrained to hang back and lean on what God says to me. Perhaps I have learned something from experience in other areas of life! Having said this, when I do feel clear about what to pray for and how to pray, it is still an exercise of faith to make my requests known to God. However, I have to admit to believing that unless I make my requests known to God, either by speaking the words out loud or praying silently, specifically, I'm not sure how He would have a reason to act? I hope this does not sound hair-splitting. It is what I meant in my earlier posts, when I picked up on dohzman's experience (which also, I must say, is still more bold than mine). Please say on if you are not reassured.
Hi Dougie,It is good for all of us to bear with and hear each other. Thank you for your objectivity. crsschk shares out of experience, hoping we can learn from it. I've heard of but never been close to 'prosperity' teaching, and, as it seems completely opposite to Jesus saying 'the poor you have with you always' I don't have trouble rejecting it. As for praying for 'anything' without the constraint of being in His will in every reference to what we may ask for, again, as there is no scripture to back up this concept, I have no trouble rejecting it. It is precisely because of feeling inadequate to discern His will in the past, it was easier for me to acknowledge the weakness of my faith and trust in His belief He can make dramatic changes in people's experience - such as healing, deliverance and gifts - (of which we have many testimonies in the New Testament), that I directed 'my faith' that way. This way of thinking took root in my mind, because I was feeling prompted to pray for others, but, did not want to take responsibility for the outcome if nothing happened. In fact, I don't think God has ever not done something discernible every time, though not necessarily definable immediately.Although it may sound convoluted, I have no trouble believing God 'can do'; it is the matter of what is His will? which used to stump me completely. Only by the exercise of seed-sized-faith in His faith, has experience begun to teach me which promptings to obey by praying for them and which may be wishful thinking. I may be wrong here, but I reckon if God does not give me the go-ahead in a particular situation, there is no point in my praying for Him to do something I think might help. Rather like Jesus waiting 4 days to go to the tomb of Lazarus, it is worth waiting for clarity before committing oneself to ask the Lord to move in His love, compassion and power.I said that I believe God’s power is released (as a reward?) by faith. I don’t know where I got that idea. He had no sight, there was an event, he had sight, Jesus explanation credits the event to his faith. Somehow I missed all those other complications.In the presence of the Lord, when it is He Who is called upon to do the healing, there is not a problem. Looking back this thread, I held back from comment on your choice of words, as I realise we all have a learning curve and your experience of supportive prayer and what the Lord has said to you about your gift, cannot be refuted or disputed. And through your testimony, I see a confirmation of my own experience, even if we do not use the same nouns and adjectives to define it. Your question 'Will Christ find faith on the earth? is a very legitimate. That faith brings a 'reward' is limited in its New Testament context, I glean from having recently searched the word in a different discsussion. 'Quick prize' is anything but the meaning in Hebrews 10:35, where God is talking about final rewards; for having endured to the end, for having done good, for having stored our treasure in heaven, I believe. I can see how it might feel as if 'faith' brings its own 'reward'. But, how does one cope when one has believed right, but nothing happens? That's when one begins to wonder about the quality of one's faith, the quantity of one's faith ... - exactly the reason I have tried to push responsiblity for all that, back to the Lord! :knockedout: It is this sort of thing I hoped to discuss here, one question being, Are there certain types of healing which God always wants to minister to the believer who needs them?Please do try to post about your wife's healing. No-one disputes a testimony! :-)
Here is an excerpt from The Word of Knowledge, and Faith By Smith Wigglesworth"People say to me, "Have you not the gift of faith?" I say that it is an important gift, but what is still more important is for us every moment to be making an advancement in God. Looking at the Word of God today I find that its realities are greater to me today than they were yesterday. It is the most sublime, joyful truth that God brings an enlargement. Always an enlargement. There is nothing dead, dry or barren in this life of the Spirit; God is always moving us on to something higher, and as we move on in the Spirit our faith will always rise to the occasion as different circumstances arise.This is how the gift of faith is manifested. You see an object and you know that your own faith is nothing in the case. The other day I was in San Francisco. I sat on a car and saw a boy in great agony on the street. I said, "Let me get out." I rushed to where the boy was. He was in agony through cramp of the stomach. I put my hands on his stomach in the name of Jesus. The boy jumped, and stared at me with astonishment. He found himself instantly free. The gift of faith dared in the face of everything. It is as we are in the Spirit that the Spirit of God will operate this gift anywhere and at any time.When the Spirit of God is operating this gift within a man, He causes him to know what God is going to do. When the man with the withered hand was in the synagogue, Jesus got all the people to look to see what would happen. The gift of faith always knows the results. He said to the man, "Stretch forth thine hand." His word had creative force. He was not living on the line of speculation. He spoke and something happened. He spake at the beginning and the world came into being. He speaks today and these things have to come to pass. He is the Son of God and came to bring us into sonship. He was the firstfruit of the resurrection and He calls us to be firstfruits, to be the same kind of fruit like to Himself."(Taken from a short thread by Rahman, on page 2 of the Scriptures and Doctrine forum called 'Why is there a need for the "Gift of Faith"? ...')
I've called back this thread for any who would like to share the detail of their Bible study.
I hope it's ok to reply to this thread. I did not read it when it was originally posted but wanted to make some comments on it.quoteI hope we will look very carefully into scripture to see 'where' 'when' and 'who' Jesus healed (as well as 'how') and compare this with our experience.I think the answer to the where would be everywhere except where there was unbelief.Mat 13:57-58And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Who? No doubt Jesus provided many examples of physical healing which I think are often tied into or representative of spiritual healing and I think this is the initial focus when Christians think of healing. As I read through the four pages in this thread it seemed that this is where the focus was, even though I think Linn was trying to look beyond these two realms. I find it intriguing that Jesus specifically referred to this healing as part of his purpose.Luke 4:18The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruisedThere is no reference in the Strongs for brokenhearted.but I think the broken in Rev. 2:27 would carry the same idea......broken-to crush completely, to shatter, break in pieces and shivers, to bruise.for heart the most common reference carries the idea of.....thoughts, feelings, and mind, which to me would represent the soul.I think the answer for how would be........."not one specific method." Look at the various ways Jesus healed blind people. I think this was to show us not to get hung up on methods. There are endless circumstances that could lead to a person being shattered in the heart. Two individuals who may have experienced similar circumstances causing their brokenness may arrive at their healing by different avenues or methods but the Who (Jesus) it comes through will be the same.When? I think that this kind of healing is usually a process rather than an event. Think about this shattering leading to shivers. These shivers may be buried deep and in various places. Some may surface quickly and be dealt with and others may take some time to surface. Perhaps some event will cause a shiver to surface or it may be that our compassionate, patient physician is waiting for us to mature and grow in trust and dependency on Him so that he can begin to dig around and cleanse those tender areas.Hope
crsschk Sure, when it is the word of God that is doing the speaking, so to speak... The problem with the reasonings behind 'releasing' thin gs (and not to overstate it and that may not have been the intent of the previous posting, but this is often common type language coming out of this particular line of teaching) and speaking forth things, is in this idea that "What you say" has some sort of magical quality to it, in other words, you are in essence a 'mini-me' version of God, that you can speak forth things into existence. It's a heretical teaching and severe twisting of scripture. It only gets worse by the blending and applying these principals to exactly what you just mentioned, a common retort that is used to support their position (not that you are doing so). There has been a lot of ground covered in this area elsewhere here, and is also something I was personally caught up in for a time, could always point you to it if you like.I would like to read other threads concerning what you are saying here. I am not sure that I am clearly interpreting what you are saying. I understand the connection with the WOF movement and the prosperity message. I do not endorse this line of thinking as I think most Christians praying/believing this way are of the wrong motive. I believe that God would pour financial blessing on more Christians if they were mature enough to handle it. If they could be used as a conduit. If they could use the blessing to be a blessing, but I believe what many Christians are praying believing for (wealth) thinking it would be their rescue would in reality be their destruction. My prayer is Lord, please don't give me anything that I would not use to your glory. However I do believe that we are to speak to situations. "but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done." I have never thought about the distinction between this and speaking things into existence. I cannot think of anywhere in scripture that instructs us to speak things into existence. I am not affirming or disputing the thought. I would like to look closer at this scripturally. I think about Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. and also Jesus saying that those who believe on him shall do the works he does and greater. I have always thought that one of the churches' greatest weaknesses was it's silence. I think about the disciples waking Jesus on the boat in the storm. He asked them where "their" faith was, which implies to me that "they should have spoken to the storm" Hope
I have had this cruddy cough/runny nose/raspy breathing thing going on for about a month. Two weeks ago some people at the church prayed over me and anointed my head with oil to kick it. Nothing changed. One morning that the sickness woke me up (there were many) I read some things in John Rice's 'Prayer: Asking and Receiving' that broke my spirit. I realized how proud my praying was, and how my pride was limiting Him in my life and my relationships.Today, I felt like God spoke right at me through my pastor. He preached about James 5. For the sick one to call the elders, how the elders are not supposed to go around looking for the sick. This strengthens the elders faith, and humbles the one that needs healing. He spoke a lot about pride, and how the church was in one accord in Acts. I knew I had to go forward when he said for us to come to have them pray over us.I know all the staff pretty well. I went forward and prayed, the Spirit came and convicted me, and one of the men prayed as he put his hands on me. Tears flowed and I asked for God to crucify my pride. After they closed the service, I asked to have them pray over me specifically for my illness, and for my pride that I felt was seperating me from them. They prayed and tears and conviction came again. It seemed that the woman who prayed over me knew exactly what I was going through from the words of her prayer. My spirit is broken, as is my pride, and I am feeling much better. My point is that I had them pray the second time, even though my flesh was reasoning that the sickness was a 'thorn' that didn't need prayer. Well, it was a thorn, but it was a thorn of pride that I obviously needed to confess to those praying over me about (James 5:16). So the sickness brought me closer to God, and seemed to break in proportion to the breaking of my pride, only after I confessed my fault. I don't feel the block I felt toward the staff, or the block of my congestion and breathing to boot. You couldn't convince me it was just a coincidence.By the way, I am not big on confessing faults to people, and am still not, but in this case, my pride obviously needed to be confessed to the elders before the prayer.
I'm reviving this thread for some new people to read, and also for any who wish to post in response to previous posts, or, this new one.
'Healing', as it is understood by those who see dramatic miracles on tv, or, who read or hear of dramatic healings in real life, may not realise there is another kind of healing which is [u]as real[b]from God
It is hiding in this precious account from the beloved physician, Luke.
12 Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13 And they lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
14 So when He saw them, He said to them, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And so it was that [b]as they went, they were cleansed
15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16 and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.
17 So Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18 Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?" (Luke 17 - NKJV)
It is the phrase 'as they went', which is the challenge to us.
What made the difference for them? It is not about remaining unhealed, but, how do we [i][b]go[u]and [b]heal
Here is most of my leading post again, with a bit more white space between the thoughts and questions, to make it easier to follow (I think).
The original responses in this thread are well worth reading.
For many years the preaching I heard did not address my need for inner healing, with a clarity which I could recognise through the fog of continual strivings to 'arrive' at a place of peace, where I could honestly say I knew God had given me what I believed could be received from Him (by way of salvation). I did not know what was missing, I just knew I did not have it!
It was terrifying to begin to acknowledge the undeniable persistence of this indefinable issue to myself only. There were good reasons for this fear and partly, that is my point.
Retrospectively, I can take full responsibility for my part in my deafness, but remain confident there are many more like me out there!
I would like preachers to take greater responsibility for covering this aspect of gospel ground more thoroughly. Is that fair?
Having eventually received many layers of healing over time, I am more convinced of its importance to the church, but, I have also heard of an evangelist who does not 'believe in' healing.
I see this is as a reason some people don't enter the Kingdom more easily; then, they are branded - lovingly? - as 'sinners' 'disobedient' 'apathetic' or 'weak'.
Subsequently, when those seriously in need have not had the life-changing experience they were promised, they rightly sense they have nothing to report despite putting their faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sin(s) and believing for eternal life.
And then, those outside the church have even less chance of 'hearing' words which will connect them to a meaningful salvation.
The effect of failing to make healing an area of expertise within the church is one reason church members seem to go hot and cold, show promise and enthusiasm - then run out of steam, lack motivation and find excuses not to serve.
It cannot all be put down to pure selfishness or lack of vision. There are good spiritual reasons to get a handle on.
Precisely because this could be an emotive discussion it's in the Lounge where I hope we can keep a relaxed and compassionate perspective on the issues which may arise if we are honest. I do want this to stir us up to greater faith and understanding. :)
I found this useful extract on the internet.
'..In both Hebrew and English, the word ‘healing’ is related to the word ‘whole’. In Greek, the word sozo means both to save and to heal.
God identified himself to us from the beginning as a God who heals (Exodus 15.26). The healing he offers is a comprehensive one which eventually will touch spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5.23). To know God is to receive life, abundant life, spiritual life which may, even in this world of death, prove itself in the healing of both emotional and physical pain (John 10.37-38). That is a message which is of profound interest to the many people both inside and outside the church who are looking for a faith that works. Healing is both metaphor and reality, and it is not intended as an ‘in-house perk’ for Christians – it is a fundamental expression of the gospel itself.
Back to the drawing board
If healing and evangelism are to be regarded together as ways of offering the wholeness which God wishes to bring us, what implications does that carry for our own practice?..'
For the complete article:
[b]Questions
How much is it the responsibility of the individual believer to [b]lay hold of the healing they need[u]and minister this truth to the uncommitted heart
Is there any [u]scriptural[i]commitment[i]follow[i]before
[EDIT
Or at least, before they have encountered His healing ministry?]