Is God's word more than the bible?

It was something I read a while back that Tozer wrote on these lines, that God's word is far more than just what we have in the bible.

I was thinking about this again recently in light of the KJV discussion. It seems to me that Tozer is correct and was trying to get folk to think outside of their 'religious' strait jackets. His point was that if God is infinite, so is His word, so how could it be limited to just the word we have recorded in the bible?

Scriptures that would be relevant to this would be the following:

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word".
Jesus is the THE WORD of God and existing before any written account or bible.

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written".
So much was done by Jesus in His incarnation that no amount of books could contain it. I would suggest that would include His words.

Luke 24:27 "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself"
This record of Jesus speaking to the disciples on the road to Emmaus does not record what He actually said. It must have been a very exhaustive study! I would have loved to have been there!

So I am not suggesting that there is anything that would contradicts the word of God as recorded in the bible, but that there is much more to God's word than we have in the bible. We don't have access to this yet, but one day we will.

Thoughts?..........

I agree 100%. The Emnaus story is defintely a top 3 favorite of mine.

Where it gets a tad sticky is that some people, generally strongly non-charismatic, will say that the Bible contains all we need to know or are supposed to know. That is the issue that is debatable.

We bear in mind that the Word is a Person. He cannot be contained in human vessels. Our words are tools of human vessels. His Word is Himself and not merely a tool.

His revealed Word is the complete and sufficient revelation of Himself. His Spirit however continues the teaching ministry of Jesus. He does not merely remind us of truth, but He is the Truth Alive. And while His revealed truth in the written word is never contradicted nor supplemented by any authority as He placed in that word, He also far surpasses the words on paper. It is this Person of Truth, the still living Word, ministered to us in the Holy Spirit moment by moment, who shows/leads/guides us "into all truth".

Carter Conlon had a nice sermon on this at the end of June about knowing and finding the will of God. Not along these exact lines but really really worth hearing.

Todd, I would tend to agree that the bible is all we need to know about God, but not all there is to know.
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever," (Deut 29:29).

Tim, Very eloquently put! Re- Carter Conlon, funny I very nearly listened to that message last night. Maybe tonight I will!

Brother Dave,
This that you point to here is, I believe, the actual crux of the matter. As brother Tozer states there is so much more to it than what is written, for not everything can or could be written as the scriptures themselves declare.
Interestingly it's the revealed/spoken/rhema word that Jesus says upon which His church will be built and not the written/scripture/logos alone as when He declares to Peter this fact and then in John...
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Also this is why I brought up the Luke 4:4/Matthew 4:4 point in the KJV thread as this is crucial to a life in the spirit in that it is an imperative that we receive it directly from Him and therefore know Him and be known by Him.

While I'm not a KJV only and have at present 27 different translations, it is my "go to" and my initial point of reference. Not because it's beyond criticism but because i find it the most consistent in the areas where my studies require propriety. While I consult the others and have gleaned and been edified by them all at one time or another, all of them including the KJV would be of little use in the end if I had not met the Author and abide in His word as He reveals it to me.
As I see it, it's when the revealed word (rhema) and the written word (logos) finds completion in their correlation within our hearts that we begin to truly partake of that which is born of Heaven. For prior to this we are like a bird with one wing,... going round in circles and never really getting off the ground, but when both are functioning and complementary then we can fly and soar with the Eagles.
Also in line with this recently I felt like the Lord spoke this to me,...
"The Father gives-
The Son receives-
The Spirit expresses~"
Always and forever this way does the Godhead function was my takeaway impression.
So this got me to thinkin, "if I abide in Him, then He will abide in me and the Father will make His home with us"
So if I "give myself to Christ" then He will "give Himself to me" and then He will live in me and receive the things of the Father in me( on my behalf) and His Spirit will then, because of the life of Christ being manifest in me by His own power, land or light upon me and express Himself in, to and thru me as long as I abide in Him, however if I chose to leave Him and return to the world in my affections and subsequently in actions, His spirit will be grieved and will depart from me until which time I repent and return to Christ.
This is where (for me) the marriage of the rhema and the logos is an imperative as I cannot find Him and abide in Him without both.
It's like grace and truth, when we only have one we tend to get lopsided and fall over...
I believe this is why the word of God is described as a "two edged sword"
and as far as I can see my reformed brothers are heavy in the logos whereas my charismatic brothers are heavy in the rhema,... If only these two would just quit fighting and get re-married the church would be full of power and purity and would turn the world upside down again and set it on fire as she did in the first century.

Fletcher, I like what you wrote! There is a lot to chew on here and it sits well with me. I'm glad I started this post just to get what you have written. :)

removed post
Posted from wrong heart, posted to give impression I am more Spirtual than I am.

Great thread. This is always a beautiful answer to KJV only believers. I do not take part in such discussions anyway. KJV only and Pre or Post tribulation, will not include my indulgence. Every Bible says the same, take up the cross. If there is a Bible that tells anything different from it then let us ignore it. Either Pre or Post trib, Bible says we have to be ready for his coming because He is coming QUICKLY. So such discussions to me do not add to Godliness.

Jesus said in Luke 4 that Man does not live by Bread alone but every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God. So God still speaks. The word is still proceeding from his mouth. Jesus did not refer to the written word alone, but the spirit behind the written word that can speak to us.

There are 7 spirits of God, and each word of God in Bible has 7 spirits behind it. We might have known the word in only one spirit, but if we meditate on each word then God will reveal the rest of the spirits. I have seen this happen in our Bible Studies. Suddenly from no where a brother will give a totally different meaning to a word.

For example it once happened in a Church, we all know John 3:16 thoroughly. There was a study on John 3, and a new believer got up and shared, 'God loved the world so much, his world is so big and it includes entire creations, but my world includes my family, friends, Church and colleagues. Am I showing my love to them by giving God's Son Jesus to them?'

This a totally different spirit to the word. This is a revelation from a very simple word that we heard and share so much.

PP, I was going to respond to your post as I thought you made some good points. However I see you removed it and although I don't know why, I respect your heart motive. I always appreciate your honest and sincere heart on here, even if sometimes I can come across a bit harsh, for which I apologise. It is not personal, just my zeal sometimes getting ahead of me.

Julius, Yes good article. Thanks for the link. I particular like this statement he made "We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions."

RE: ///PP, I was going to respond to your post as I thought you made some good points. However I see you removed it and although I don't know why///

I feel the interpatation is true. But after posting it I felt very restless.

As far as this being Sreeram answer : to KJV only believers.
that is sterotyping.
Bro Keith Daniels is an excellant example of One whom is I believe and I am sure Sreeram agrees filled with the Spirit.

Dry fundamentalism runs rapid no matter ones few on inspiration.

This is a good topic heydave.

edit add: Our Lord was more intune than anyone. In the midst of Spirtual battle he relied on the Written Word for propositional revelation, He viewed the written word as more than just containing personal revelation.
We find a Checks and Balances in the temptation account.

I agree with the basic premise of this thread, I disagree with the conclusion many are drawing!
It is very dangerous and a very unbiblical conclusion!
It is throwing Christianity out with the bath water.

ROBERT BRINSMEADs artical is very unbiblical and extremely dangerous !!!

Eta Linnemanns a Bultmannian turned evangelicals book "Historical Criticism of the Bible Methodology or Ideology" is a must read for any one buying into Mr ROBERT BRINSMEADs mindset

also "The End of the Historical Critical Method" by Gerhard Maier is worth reading

both are written by Germans whom have had to fight German Idealism and humanism head on.

FREEDOM FROM BIBLICISM : ROBERT BRINSMEAD
tested in light of Scripture

"

(for even the Christ-denying Pharisees trusted in the Bible ­ John 5:39) .."

This is a common misused verse to try to make an unbiblical case that the Bible is no more than a tool to point us to Christ

It is true that Pharisees trusted the scripture, (That is to say they justified there man made traditions by the scripture !)
but it is also true they did not believe the Scriptures : read the full passage instead of nit picking verses out of context : verses 46 and 47.

If we are going to break beyound the surface of Scripture we are going to have to believe Scriptures!

"

The purpose of all Scripture is to bear witness to Christ. (John 5:39; 20:31)."

Mr BRINSMEAD biasness and lack of faith has blinded him!
We have already proved by the context that he is misleading by his misuse of John 5:39

Mr BRINSMEAD again is blinded and misuses John 20:31
The context of John 20:31 is not referring to the entirity of what is written in Scripture it is clearly referring to the (signs) that where recorded, read verse 30 the context is very clear.
Lack of faith blinds us from the context, Mr Brinsmead is blinded.

."

The Bible in itself is not the Word of God. The Word of God is a person. (John 1:1) ."

Mr BRINSMEAD again is blinded and made the above unbiblical statement.
The inclusion of one reality does not lead to the disclusion of another :

Mark 7:13 Jesus is speaking of the Scripture and he calls it the word of God.
When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness He did not rely on Himself, He relied on what was Written, The very specifics of What was Written was instumental in the spirtual war.
How much less Spirtual are we than our Lord!
How much more important it is for us to lay hold of the Scriptures with our inward struggles.

Mr BRINSMEAD again quotes (John 5:39). It is a despreate attempt to make an unbiblical case.

Mr BRINSMEAD than makes this statement :
"

The Bible is therefore to be valued because of its testimony to Jesus Christ. The Bible is absolutely trustworthy and reliable for the purpose it was given. It is designed to make us ''wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'' (2 Tim. 3:15), not wise on such subjects as science, history and geography ­ which it is our responsibility to learn through general revelation."

To be continued.

Heydave wrote : .."

Julius, Yes good article. Thanks for the link. I particular like this statement he made "We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions.".."

Mystcism without the Bible is not Christianity!!!

ROBERT BRINSMEADs artical Is not leading us to Jesus of the Bible but to another Jesus:
http://www.bobbrinsmead.com/t_the_scandal_of_joshua_ben_adam_pt1.html

Mr BRINSMEAD than makes this statement :

The Bible is therefore to be valued because of its testimony to Jesus Christ. The Bible is absolutely trustworthy and reliable for the purpose it was given. It is designed to make us ''wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'' (2 Tim. 3:15), not wise on such subjects as science, history and geography ­ which it is our responsibility to learn through general revelation."

To those whom are ignorant of what is going on in the Scholarly circles and blinded by there trickery of words:

What Mr. BRINSMEAD is implying here is that natural science is true and that The Bible is inacurate on all levels except to point us to Christ.

Mr BRINSMEAD also is implying that the Bible is historicaly inaccurate even when it comes to the details of Jesus : and that the secular "historic Jesus" is the real Jesus.

BRINSMEAD is implying The Jesus of Scripture is a man made up Jesus .

The mysticism or spirtuality that BRINSMEAD is pointing to, I believe resembals new age.

This mindset is sweeping the churchs.

This "Historical Criticism" of the Bible has been birthed out of the enlightment it is the fruit of humanism that has made man the center of all things.

It is why those like Bart Ehrman (pupil of internationally renowned textual critic Bruce M. Metzger) are coming out of our siminaries as agnostics.

Julius21

I got it from reading the words that he wrote. and responded in my the first post refuting his artical.

I then researched him and got absolute confirmation that I indeed had read correctly.

read this if you doubt my statements : The Scandal of Joshua Ben Adam, Part 1
By Robert D. Brinsmead VERDICT, May 1998

http://www.bobbrinsmead.com/t_the_scandal_of_joshua_ben_adam_pt1.html#Introduction:_This_MAN_and_the_Christia

Proud papa,
Well done!
Your antennas are quite sensitive, moreso than mine at least and so for that and your look into this mans writings/position and for being bold and sharing here, I am in your debt!
I read all the links that you and brother Julius shared and I without a doubt concur with your findings and realize my own discernment is lacking.

Thank you+:)

OK, first thanks PP for looking into the writings of Mr Brinstead and highlighting the error. I thought at first your response was a bit strong, but I can see why, based on his background. I see he has been in the Children of God movement for 40 years, which is a major concern.

I had written a response to Julius after reading the 2nd Brinstead article with concerns about what was written, but my tablet crashed just as I was going to post! This was very frustrating, but maybe this was of the LORD, as I then read PP's posts and had time to look into it in more depth.

The mistaken position taken by Brinstead on these posts is the dismissal of the authority of scripture (obviously he has even more heretical views as well). For me the issue is not the authority of scripture (it is final authority for life and conduct for Christians and the church), but how scripture is viewed and used. Hence this is why I quoted this statement by Brinstead "We must stop using the Bible as though it were a potpourri of inerrant proof-texts by which we can bring people into bondage to our religious traditions." In hindsight I can see his inclusion of the word 'inerrant' in this phrase is troublesome and I would not include that, but I still think that the statement is generally true if that is taken out.

The big problem in the church today is this wrong view and use of scripture, taking proof texts out as if they on their own can be used to establish a doctrine or practise. This is prevalent among all sectors of the church from IFB to WOF movements. We have all at some point in one way or another probably done this. We need the holy Spirit to renew our minds in reading and understanding scripture. The best way I know of avoiding falling into this type of 'proof texting' is to read the bible systematically, book by book, chapter by chapter, asking the LORD to reveal His word to us. This only, as opposed to reading topically, inserting our preconceptions into the text, will help us understand what is written.

Let me give an example: My wife and I are reading through 1 John. In Chapter 4 we read in verse 15 "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God". As a proof text this could be used to say 'if you confess Jesus is God you will be born again' (God in you and you in God). However in verse 3 it says "every spirit who confesses that Jesus has come in the flesh is of God". In verse 7 "Everyone that loves is born of God" and in verse 16 "he who abides in love abides in God". So which is it? When we understand John's letter, and this part in particular, we see that John is actually showing how to test who is a false prophet and what they and an Antichrist spirit looks like, what characterises their doctrine and life (see Ch 4 verses 1 and 2). So hence the importance of how we view the 'words' of scripture! They are not in themselves (in isolation to the message being communicated) divine, but it is the whole context of what was written that is authoritative and divinely given.

To labor the point, if I were to say that John said' if you confess Jesus as Lord, you will abide in God', would I be faithfully representing what he said? I would suggest not, I would be misrepresenting him, because I have taken it out of the context of everything he wrote in this letter and he would be rightly upset. Although he said these 'actual words', he did not actually say (mean) that. He is saying this is one of the characteristics that is evident in a true Christian. This is clear when we read and quote the whole chapter (and even better, whole letter).
Politicians and the media play this 'sound bite' game to try and trap each other or give a false impressions. It is not something believers should do!

Will pray.

"COG" I never heard of them.

What I got from the artical
and than confirmed In the articals of his, that I posted : was the growing unbiblical view of :"historical Criticism"

I hope to touch on that later and the reason I found it so clearly evident in his artical.

I knew the entire time his view did not represent your view.
His view and agenda (historical Criticism)was hidden in trickery of words.
but do not believe that the deceitfulness is excusive to his cult. It is prominent in most of our circles.
and it does influence our understanding of inspiration.

The dead anbaptist denomination that my local fellowship is unfourtanetly still a member of, has been overtaken with the same views as what he was advocating : mysticm apart from the Bible.

Mysticm apart from the Bible is not Christianity

Spirtual Christianity is what Charles Spurgeon wrote of John Bunyan - "Prick him anywhere;and..the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his soul is full of the Word of God

Prayers for you and your family dear brother!

The Bible is therefore to be valued because of its testimony to Jesus Christ. The Bible is absolutely trustworthy and reliable for the purpose it was given. It is designed to make us ''wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'' (2 Tim. 3:15), not wise on such subjects as science, history and geography ­ which it is our responsibility to learn through general revelation."

This view is not exclusive to Mr BRINSMEAD or a specific cult, It is a very rapid moving heresy within Christendom,
the idea that the Bible is nothing more than a naturalistic human book that points us to a spirtual experience or good moral principles.

And because of it being a human book of no other purpose than to point us to a spirtual experience or good moral principles. It is considered to be filled with error not only in its detail but also in the areas of science, history and geography. That is exactly what Mr BRINSMEAD was implying. This ideology is called "Historical Criticism" It is the study about the Bible rather than a study of the Bible.
This ideology treats the Bible no more Divine than any other book that has been produced by man.
And so there logic is : what ever has been produced by man is fallible.
So the Bible has to be fallible.
(Is that not what we keep hearing everyone chanting?)
It is humanism it is naturalistic and it makes man and his fleshly intelect the measure of all things.

Jesus of the Bible than is able to be replaced with the "historic Jesus" that the Scholars have created.
and that is what Mr BRINSMEAD is implying when he says "not wise on such subjects of history"

Most mainline protestant and catholic seminary teach "Historical Criticism" to some degree. It is the reason the seminary has became known as a spirtual cemetery.

Mr BRINSMEADs artical was well recieved because of his appeal to spirtual life.
such appeal is often intertwined with "Historical Criticism". and so are moral principles often intertwined with "Historical Criticism". inorder to seduce

But this mysticism that rejects the devotional side of the Bible is not Biblical Christianity
Do not be fooled though, those practicing it often are walking in some kind of realm and some times are even able to display power especially in the areas of influencing others or at excelling in various areas of competitiveness.

add:

Biblical Christianity on other hand believes : "A supernatural God must have a supernatural Book."

But bear in mind the Words of the Spirit of God; if you want to be guided, you must study the Word; because the Word is the light of the Spirit. - DL Moody