Once saved always saved

Guys is it true that Carter Conlon is a once saved always saved pastor?

You read that online.

I am unaware of Conlon believing in eternal security no matter how one lives. If he does, he disguises it better than anyone I ever saw.

I do not think that he is.

What have you heard that makes you think that?

dolfan wrote:
If he does, he disguises it better than anyone I ever saw.

Brother Keith Daniels believes it.....
He says; "I believe once saved, always saved.... IF you stay saved" ;)

I don't think he is OSAS. He probably is somewhere along the lines of David Wilkerson. With Wilkersons book "The New Covenant Unvieled" a lot of people thought he became Calvinist. If Conlon has similar beliefs I wouldn't be surprised if some say he is OSAS

What is left after the flesh dies? The soul and spirit that is married to Christ being born again of the incorruptible living Word, which is the Spirit of Christ in you the hope of glory.

Before The living Word Himself by His Faith and the Holy Spirit I was given a simple act of faith to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, I was headed for hell and damnation because I could not separate my soul from the spirit of Satan. Only the Spirit of Christ could by use of the double edged sword used by the Holy Spirit, divide my soul and spirit and separate my being and give birth to The Spirit of Christ in me, making my soul and spirit now the power and life of Christ eternal in me. Only God Himself could take this body, soul and spirit of death, of which I had no power over and give me The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus of which I also have no power over.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Which is Christ in you; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

If I had no power to separate myself from the spirit of Satan, how is that I have the power to separate myself from the love of God and loose my salvation?

It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

Galatians 2:17-21 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This Christ that lives in me is my only salvation and none can separate it from me. WE are all found sinners, for the flesh wars against the Spirit until the Flesh is dead.
Again; ((((What is left after the flesh dies?))))

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

"Incorruptible Seed" John 1:1-12 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

Is this what Conlon believes?

I hope this does not lock this thread.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Julius21,

What is your understanding of the following verses?

1 Peter 1:3 - "...who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time..."

Jude 1:24 - "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy..." (which is an interesting contrast to Jude 1:21 - "Keep yourselves in the love of God")

And do you agree with this Spurgeon quote? - "It is not your hold of Christ that saves you; it is His hold of you."

Hi brother Yeuhan,
Forgive me if this is an intrusion as it is not intended to be so, tho I would like to offer a perspective to these scriptures...
1 Peter 1:5 -- notice while it is by the power of God it is also through faith/obedience (ours)
Jude 1:24 -- here it says "He is able",... not He will- again conditional to faith/obedience
As to Spurgeon's quote,..for me it's a yes and no- yes it's by His hold but He doesn't force us to stay, we choose to or not.
Acts 5 is an example of two whom chose to stray and the consequence was dreadful.

Hey JFW, I appreciate the "intrusion" ;)

Acts 5 is an example of two whom chose to stray and the consequence was dreadful.

I agree with you that God keeps us when we put our trust in Him. Just trying to work out the details here:

Can a person who is born again be "unborn"?

His old man - along with his sinful nature - had been crucified with Christ, and he had been resurrected with Jesus as a new creation. Can this entire process be reversed - the new man be reburied, and the old man be revived?

Yes, if he does not remain in the vine. His life is in the vine.

There definitely is security for a believer. Believing is fluid. A "one time" belief is not locked in stone for all eternity.

yuehan,

I am Phillip. Do you believe that The Christ birthed in us is made unto us wisdom? For it is not my wisdom that has made me righteousness. Is it our faith that has made us redeemed or is His wisdom in us that has made us righteous unto redemption, by His Faith that is now in us which sanctifies us and make us wisdom, rightousness and redemtion unto salvation?

Is I who live my life or is my life hid in Christ and the life I now life I live by the faith of the Son of God?

My faith and wisdom without the work of Christ in me is hopeless and without merit and cannot save me from anything, even now by the Christ in me, that life that makes me a son of God, still wars with The Spirit and only by the work of the Holy Spirit and the Life of Christ in me am I able to keep striving and labouring to please God our Father.

My mind will and emotions are against God, unless that double edged sword dividing my soul and spirit and putting the Spirit of Christ in Satan's place and then being able to separate my body from my soul-spirit, my flesh would not let me into heaven. Praise God my flesh will die and what is left is of God the Father through Jesus Christ by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

For truly the life I now live I live by the crucified life of the Son of God who has brought me unto His Cross which I have been crucified with Him, and is now my Cross that I take up daily and follow Him.

I always am afraid to put my faith which is by His Faith into words for they divide asunder the soul and spirit of man which is hard to understand and causes strife.

Like Peter who of Paul made things hard to understand.

2 Peter 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Yeuhan,
I believe brother TMK gave the answer that tracks with my understanding of faith and really like his wording.
Having said that, I'd like to add that a person doesn't have to be "un-reborn" as being reborn is certainly a prerequisite, for our Lord Himself declares it so, it is not a "ticket to heaven" in and of itself. Notice Jesus says "Ye must be born again to enter the kingdom" and doesn't say "if you are born again you are eternally secured in the kingdom",... So (for me) while it's clearly necessary, as before the new birth the kingdom is not much more than a myth to the carnal mind, there is still the condition of obedience/abiding by faith but now it's by His power/grace, being led by His Spirit, with joy from a regenerate heart that desires above all else to see Christ glorified, no matter the cost.
Note that at the close of Matt 7:21 Jesus states it is those that "do the will of my father who is in heaven" also Matt 12:50 and other very similar verses direct us to the condition of obedience. Again not to "get something" but in response to having received something/someone whom we did not deserve.
Probably the clearest example of this for me personally is the 10 virgins parable... 5 were wise, 5 were not... They got comfortable taking their security for granted and lost the fear of the Lord and it cost them dearly.

+ the 1 John scripture you pointed out, lines up (in my mind) with John 6:66- I had not considered its application to Acts 5 but I will, thank you for that insight+:)

"The soul that sinneth shall die"

In answer the question, Can a person who is born again be "unborn"? Yes, they can die. That simple. But it doesn't have to be that way.

My intent, hope and plan is to be saved, always.

We must be aware of ourselves, and watchful and accountable to others in the local body. I am far less concerned about "eternal security" than I am false conversion and mislead unbelievers who think they are saved. And, I make that assessment when I see a mirror.

Strangely enough when it comes to solid Calvinist like Paul washer and others like him they are concerned and heavely burdened with false conversions maybe more so then the ariminian , who can often times pronounce people saved who have only made confessions of faith ,

It's all about fruit and good fruit not just any fruit,it's about real life, not a conviction of sin or just feeling the presence of God or the presence of what we might think is gods spirit ,we have been made partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end , says scripture,not a wavering fuzzy faith . But the witness of the spirit that cast out all sinful doubt he sets us free from the sin of unbelief,and we never waver in confedence about God or Christ through out our entire walk with God he keeps us and because of the gift of faith which is the result of being set free from sin above all the sin of unbelief , we hold the beginning of our confedence steadfast and endure to the end .

He who is born of God does not continue to sin for gods seed is in him and he can count sin for he has been born of God, of he who is born of God does not sin ,he who sins has neither seen God or known God .

Those that continue to sin or continue to fall back in sin or fall away have neither seen God nor known God ,according to first John gods seed remains in the true believers and they cannot.......

I don't know about you but after around 17 years inchrist not once have I doubted God or Christ ',,,....

And I can only put that down to the scripture are true and that faith is a gift of grace and some how in gods providence he keeps me ,and the knowledge of this does nothing but humble me and cause to see everything as grace .......

Actually if you look at the scripture you will see in at lest two place that suggests that false teachers were marked out for hell in an election check it out so are all the fallen angles and the devil and an argument can be made clearly that judas was also bound to perdition .

There is much scripture to cause devote Christians to acknowledge that .

The soverrnty of God is overwhelming tho I breath tho think tho a pray and walk the bible says he upholds all things by the word of his power ,

With out gods control over my nervasystem I'm dead a bowl of jelly .

The power of gods soverrnty and control is worth medating on weather it's in salvation, or humanity or unaversaly, I have joy because of all those things ,.

We line up with agnostics and atheists when we fail to recognise the full scope of gods power and glory in creation .

Let God be true and every man a liar. Once saved always saved is a doctrine of demons and is leading many of souls to hell. Gods word is clear and not ambiguous to them who have ears to hear.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some SHALL DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(you cannot depart from something you did not first ARRIVE at)

2Peter 2:20-22 For if AFTER they have ESCAPED the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are AGAIN ENTANGLED therein, and OVERCOME, the latter END is worse with them than the BEGINNING. (21) For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, than, after they have known it, to TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them. (22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is TURNED to his own vomit AGAIN; and the sow that WAS WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully AFTER that we have RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, (5) And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and the POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME (6) IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should LET THEM SLIP. (2) For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; (3) How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

2Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, BEWARE LEST YE ALSO, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness.

Romans 11:20-22 Well; because of unbelief they WERE BROKEN OFF, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Hebrews 3:12-14 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you BE HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

2Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO these things, ye shall never fall:

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM UNTO THE END.

Colossians 1:23 If ye CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and BE NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Timothy 4:16 TAKE HEED unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; CONTINUE in them: for in DOING this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Peter 5:8 Be SOBER, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Mark 13:35-37 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (36) Lest coming suddenly he find you SLEEPING. (37) And what I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous TURNETH AWAY from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE.

Just as important, are we doing our part by being disciples of Christ?

"it is impossible to know the value of salvation without desiring to see others brought in.” -Whitfield

David Fella,

Thank you for all the scripture references. There really is so much clear cut teaching in the 'word' about the warning of turning back. Many more we could add to those you posted. I also think that OSAS is one of the big errors of modern times, causing a weakened gospel to those who are not walking in the light.

There are many so called 'proof texts' quoted by the proponents of OSAS (I know because I was brought up on them). However when looked at in context, they do not say what folk try to make them say. They (the OSAS proponents) go to great lengths to try to explain away all the clear statements and warnings of scripture about turning back from faith in Christ.

The other great error of OSAS is that they cry 'legalism' to any who would suggest eternal life is conditional to continuing in faith and obedience to Christ. This is a false premise. It is not legalistic to continue to exercise faith and repentance to Christ anymore than it is necessary to do this to receive salvation at the beginning. Why is it 'works' (as some suggest) to continue in faith, but not 'works' to enter in by faith?

Just this Sunday we had a sermon on Hebrews 12. However because the one preaching holds to a OSAS doctrine, there was a massive contradiction. It was said that Hebrews 12:25, "See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven", was not speaking to Christians but Jews who had not come to faith. However most of the rest of the chapter, which is addressed to the same 'you' people was applied to Christians, such as Hebrews 12:22-23

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect"

When I pointed this out, I was told that, "Well 12:25 can't be talking to Christians because we know you can't loose your salvation"! This is called inserting a presupposition into the text!!

Now I don't believe you can 'loose your salvation' like you loose your keys, but you can sell the keys of your car!

lets be clear in definitions. We ARE eternally secure in the Son, IF we remain in the Son, but this is not Once Saved Always saved, not matter what!

"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

1 John 5:12 & 13 ...One of my favourite scriptures, because salvation is of Christ and not me. I just have to keep hold on Him and He will keep hold on me. No matter how weak any of us are we can remain in Him and He will keep us. but let us not tempt Christ to think we can reject Him, turn to the filth of the world and then come into His wedding feast.

I have been thinking on this whole conversation for a while. I have grown up in a Pentecostal church where OSAS teaching is no where to be found. However after some studying I'm not so sure where I stand. I in no way think that one can pray a prayer and then just live however they want and expect to hear well done at the end. But if one truly comes to repentance and if one truly sees the beauty of Jesus Christ in the gospel and God saves that man does God just unsave him as soon as he makes a mistake? No where in scripture to my knowledge will you ever find God starting something then undoing it or not completing what he started. The scripture even says He who starts a good work is faithful to complete it. I know this is a big debate and I don't have the answer because I don't even no where I stand myself but I would just take it easy on talk that says OSAS doctrine is demonic and things like that. God can save whoever and however He pleases. God's word is inerrant our interpretation of His word is not. So regardless of where you stand Calvinist or Arminian or some combination of both (like me) let's remember that we are all in this thing for the glory of Christ! We are all on the same team

I will try to speak ,..and desiring The Lord' help here.

* can / will the deception of Satan bring one into hell?

Could it be that he,himself is deceived ?
That he wants,...and thinks it possible to achieve hieghts above God ?
To win this battle ?

* Satan NEVER wants his deception brought to Light.
Light exspells his darkness.
And,we know he never ....ever,wants Light manifested ( made real )
and expose his mighty works ! ...To where eyes can be opened,and a turning to Truth can take place....Right ?

So o o o,...down through the ages he distorts true meanings of words,..
Gets men following after man,.and man- made ideas,...whole multitudes,....when Jesus said 'Follow Me',..and He (One with His Father,God) ,...followed God.....Led by The Spirit of God.

Is not deception" one of his greatest tools,....if not his greatest tool ?

* Why ? What benefit is it to him ?

JHerndon,
What I see mostly now about "churches",....( not church as The Word teaches church,but how men have,through the years,teaches) ( The word 'church'is just one of the words that has been distorted)has changed and changed,down through the ages,Until we have what we have
now......different ! Do you see it anywhere near the oridginal entent of
God?

Important thought is,When we see a "church"that separates out a specific Scripture and makes a whole denomination by it,no matter if many other Scritures conflict with that belief,..then,..take thought,...Because when we have / know the REAL,then ALL the Scriptures come together...into ONE. The Word is One.

Also there are one's that believe they can have Jesus,and not have "The Word" ,...What He spoke. But to do so,we would have "ANOTHER JESUS"
Not the One of whom Paul and the other' s of The Bible taught.

You mentioned the Pentecostal ch,...Are you are familiar with Smith Wigglsworth ? Where is there someone who preaches and also teaches
today,as he also taught the Living out of that new Life that God has given us.

Should I say more ?
I know this is serious,....but God is serious.

elizabeth

Brother,

Please read this verse carefully.

Hebrews 3:12-14 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you BE HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Paul is admonishing the BRETHREN not to DEPART from the living God. He then encourages us to EXHORT/WARN/ ENCOURAGE one another daily unless we be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Next verse says that we are made partakers of Christ. The bible says no man can come unto Jesus Christ except the Father draws him FIRST. He then warns again that WE must HOLD the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end.

Now I agree that it is God that worketh in us both to will and do of His good pleasure Philippians 2:13 as long as we are WILLING.

Please ponder and meditate on the verses I posted earlier. They are not my words but Gods and they are not my own interpretation. The danger of OSAS is most of the people I know personally who stand on this teaching are living luke warm lives at best.

I was also pondering some other verses on this topic.

Galatians 6:1-7 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. (2) Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. (3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. (5) For every man shall bear his own burden. (6) Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. (7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Think about this for a moment Paul again is addressing the brethren and is admonishing us concerning a brother who might fall into sin. This brother would require restoration. And because we are the body of Christ we should have a burden/care/concern for the fallen brother and fulfill the second commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves and to take heed not to think to highly of ourselves lest we also might be overtaken in sin.

Now look at verse 4. BUT let every man prove his own work. The work of salvation, we are to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. Why? Because every man will bear his own burden. Christ is there all the time, He will NEVER EVER leave us, but do not be deceived in thinking men will not leave Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (25) In meekness instructing those that OPPOSE THEMSELVES; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES out of the snare of the devil, who are TAKEN CAPTIVE by him at(to do)his will.

We have to remember the audience that Paul is addressing are believers. To recover themselves in the original language means, (to become sober AGAIN, regain one's senses). They were once sober minded but because they have fallen into sin they need to recover themselves through brokenness, contriteness, and Godly sorrow so that Christ would once again grant repentance.

One final thought is found in the book of James.
James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Pay close attention to context. James is speaking to Christians, not the world. He says, "Brothers, if any of YOU err from the truth" Err means to (roam from safety/truth/virtue, go astray). Verse 20 is clear what God calls one who goes astray and chooses to remain in his sin, he is called a sinner and he needs to be restored and needs to repent.

The Christian is admonished, He who covers his sin will not prosper, but whoso confesses and forsakes his sin will obtain mercy.

Sorry for this last portion but God wants it said. Look at Gods admonishment to Israel.

Jeremiah 3:12-14 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. (13) Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. (14) Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Israel is still running from God, she has yet to turn BACK. We as followers of Christ can also choose to run but Gods invitation remains the same for us as it does for Israel.

It's one thing to commit an act of sin and it's another thing to remain in a sin unwilling to confess it and forsake it.

I truly trust that God would bless this word to your heart.

Brother Herndon,
I appreciate your admonition and agree it's best not to come into a discussion like this with knives out. Wether we land in the eternal security camp or not, making inflammatory comments rarely serve in the sphere of "earnestly contending for the faith" in a way that "strives for" as it is striving against and oft causes those whom are being opposed to dig in, building even more fortified walls to withstand the onslaught.
I would like to seek clarity on your understanding of a scripture reference you made regarding the Lord being faithful to complete the good work He Himself has begun which followed your observation of scripture not containing an incidence of God undoing or not completing a thing He had begun. So if you would indulge me I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the verses where people are given over to a reprobate mind, or sent a strong delusion that they would believe a lie, or where after having been enlightened to the truth they fell away and now impossible to be restored thru repentance, etc...
Please know this is in no way a challenge nor am I seeking a debate, rather I have a great appreciation for how you conduct yourself here on SI as I've observed you to be humble and sincere and quick to seek counsel of elder brethren when the way wasn't clear to you and also you display a quality of meekness that most young men your age have not yet come to so when I pose these things it is so we might sit and reason together that the body might be edified.
I'll confess that I am neither a Calvinist nor Arminian tho I have gleaned from both of these men as well as the schools that bear their names and have fruitful fellowship with both quite frequently.

A side note; after a time of study (years) and seeking the truth of these schools of thought I have discovered (as has been stated on SI before) that the split comes in how we render Romans 7... was the Apostle speaking of a time before he met Christ or after? And how a person answers this will put them squarely in one of the two camps, either Holiness or Eternal Security. Interestingly I found you can't have one without the other, which is to say you can't have eternal security without holiness and if you are and remain holy you are eternally secure;) Tho having a bit of blade left after arriving here, I kept digging and found what is in truth the place of both division and common ground is wether a person is born a sinner having had the sin of Adam imputed to him while still in his mothers womb without any willful complicitcy on his part or is it an aquired condition from having been born into a fallen world to parents that have sinned and being influenced to do so? This then opens a whole new set of questions and I needed a new shovel as my blade was but a nub, so I set out to aquire a new one and discovered a most precious thing...He rewards those whom seek Him diligently by revealing to them His Son in ever increasing measure and then in moments of repose and rest it becomes clear that it was He whom has given me the desire to seek Him all along. We serve a gracious God who desires to be found so let us do the excavation so our hands might be cleaned that we may indeed ascend the holy hill.

Dfella,

I think everyone can agree regardless of their view on OSAS that if a brother is unwilling to repent of sin then there is a much bigger issue. Someone who is saved is born again. They are a new creation. They are given the righteousness of Christ and He in exchange takes the punishment of their sin. So is salvation a work that consists of Christ constantly giving his righteousness then taking back and repeat? Is the Christian life just a constant cycle of being saved then unsaved then saved again? The gospel sustains he believer! The gospel isn't just the way to get into the kingdom. It's how we stay in the kingdom. If people relate eternal security to praying a prayer and then regardless of the life they live they are saved then I do not believe in eternal security. But if eternal security is now having put my faith in Christ and this great exchange has taken place where he took my sin and I was imputed His righteousness and now because of the justification given by the gospel I can enter into the presence of The Holy God and He with great patience leads me deeper into His grace and despite my failures He graciously and progressively sanctifies me and works on me. Seeing the true beauty in the gospel will cause someone to constantly walk in repentance. I don't think the question should be asked can we lose salvation because if someone has truly tasted the goodness and the life the gospel brings us there is no way someone walks away from that. He is too irresistible!

Fletcher,

First thank you for your kind words and encouragement :)
Let me start by saying again that this whole study is still fairly new to me. I have been taught my entire life that OSAS is not necessarily evil but an incorrect teaching. So I have just very recently began to listen to the other side of the story so to speak. I am still trying to discover where I land in all of this. I appreciate you questioning me in the manner that you have. I love when conversations are iron sharpening iron and not a crazy heated debate. Now, to answer your question. When the scriptures speak of being given over to a reprobate mind or a strong delusion being sent I believe that is Gods judgement on those who refuse to come to repentance. So often we think of the judgement of God as lighting bolts or plagues but I think often God's judgement is him just giving us what we want. So He gives us over to our desires. For example, look in the Old Testament at the Isralites. They were God's chosen people. They were a people to be set apart from the rest in that they were ruled by God. However the Israelites wanted to be like everyone else and have a king. So God in his gracious judgement gave them a king. Look at what a disaster that turned out to be. As for those who at one time have been enlightened and then turned away I think you may be referring to the verse in Hebrews 6. Honestly I'm not quite sure what to do here. This is part of the confusion. But I think this verse brings confusion for both sides. Those who are against OSAS could read this verse and say see you can lose your salvation. However this verse also says that you can't get it back so that creates an entirely new problem. Honestly I try not to frustrate myself to much by trying to figure out every little detail on the non essentials because I think we will get to heaven one day and see just how far all of us were off. With that being said the parable of the sower in Matthew 13 is interesting to me. It talks about those who spring up but they have no roots and die out. I think we in the church can be guilty of being so quick to kind of pope-ishly declare people saved and not see if they have truly believed. So of course we would look at these quick sprouters and say wow what a work the lord has done and then they die spiritually and we say they lost their salvation when they were never truly rooted to begin with. So where I stand right now is I believe that God is so patient with us. He lavishes his grace on us. We as human beings do a lot of just dumb stuff but He handles us with such love. We even see His love and grace in His discipline. I do not believe that God is just waiting for us to make a mistake and declare us back slidden. I believe he works with us. Shows us grace and is progressively making us more and more like Christ. I believe it is a life long process with many ups and downs but even in those downs that he is still graciously molding us. Again this is for those who humbly walk before Him in repentance not those who treat grace as a license to sin. That's cheap grace and I don't believe that idea would be in a true gospel believe. Hope I didn't ramble too much. Much love brother

Joshua,

I so appreciate your thoughts and I do not disagree. I am no expert by any means as the only good that lies within me is Him. I don't believe in Christ giving His righteousness and then taking it back or salvation being a constant cycle of being saved and then unsaved as you stated it.

For me I heard the OSAS doctrine shortly after I was saved for only a few months. It scared me. I just did not want to hear anything that might cause ME to think I could go back to my old ways and still make it into heaven.

I was saved when I was 27 and I am now 54, so on September 9 I will have spent exactly half of my life as a new creation in Christ. The older I get, the more I realize that Christ is truly faithful and as He has promised to never leave me and to complete the work He has begun in me, I know that I must remain and abide in Him.

Like you said about if people relate eternal security to praying a prayer and not living a changed and sanctified life that you do not believe in eternal security I totally agree with you. I also agree with your following statements.

I believe that I am eternally secure in Him because He is in me and I am in Him. Yet I believe that my eternal security is conditional and all the responsibility lies with me to remain first and foremost fearful, obedient, and when I sin, repentant.

I do sin, not as a usual practice or struggling with a besetting sin, but I do stumble. But when I do, I am grieved to the core, and it affects me so. So when I do, I am quick to repent yet it may take me a while to get my joy back because I feel so terrible when I fall short. I do not believe I lose my salvation when I stumble, I am in way to deep now to walk away and I do not believe He would allow me to at this stage either.

I think my greatest fear in relation to this topic is the distortion of Gods grace in that it (Grace) covers one's continual sin. I have heard way to many a preacher excuse people's sin by Gods grace with no mention whatsoever of repentance.

Thanks again for your thoughts on this brother.

Jeremiah 32:40

Thanks be to God

I also believed in the beginning that one could lose our life with Christ I debated and debated on forums , this was until I listened to Paul washer ,and was mentored in the gospel so to speak ,but always said that is one thing Paul washer is wrong about but I felt respect towards Paul washer and found out many amazing Christians like Whitfield Edwards and others also believed this ,but still thought they are way off ,that was until I started to focus of the gospel of John and the letter of John and meditated for many hours and even memorised some of his writings , to my amasment I found verses that Jesus spoke and things that John wrote that seemed to contradict the others warning verses I used to focus on , I could not with a clear concence reconcile the gospel of John and the letter of John with my oridgnal understand of losing salvation ,so it was then that the only way I could interprate johns writings with the rest of the New Testament and some of the writings of a certain prophet named Ezekiel, was to change my view and I found my self rubbing shoulders with some of the most influential men in history ,, and I fell it has helped me a lot to rest and focus on the lord and not worrie about weather One day in the future I would just fall away ,, so I am extremely happy that I can trust God faithfulness Wile only looking briefly at times to my efforts and being able to put no trust and faith in my works but only in his works on the cross and what flows from that transaction, it has been a huge burden lifted , to no this verse is true that is he who is born of God keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him period full stop . End of story Jesus Christ prayed for us in the gospel of John that we would not fail and gods answers that pray of Christ full stop ,there is no doubt about that . My faith is stronger now then it was .my focus in now on Christ and his promises and his highpreisety prayer and the relation ship that father has with the son in answering that prayer , rather then on this,,,have I really tried hard enough ,,,,from me to him is wher my focus tends to look ,and when we look to the lord there power to over come the world ......

Savannah,

Jeremiah 32:40 in it's context reads:

32:37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
32:38 "And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:"
32:39 "And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them"
32:40 "And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me".

So the context of verse 40 is God's Covenant to Israel in the last days, to re-gather them. Does the word apply in some way to believers in Christ today, Yes, but not interpreted in isolation to it's original context. Quoting one verse out of context makes it a Pre-text.

I would like to heartily recommend a book I am currently reading on this subject. I believe it is one of the most significant books I have EVER read and anyone serious about the Doctrine of Perseverance (i.e. OSAS) should read it.

It is called 'Life in the Son' by Robert Shank, written in 1960. I was lent it by my Son-in Law, who at one time passionately disagreed with me on the subject and supported OSAS. He has subsequently changed his position. I don't know if was a result of this book or other factors.
But I am convinced that anyone who reads this book with an honest search for truth, will only conclude Mr Shank is correct in his thesis.

Robert Shank came from the Southern Baptist tradition with a strong stance on eternal security, but change his position after much study brought him to the conclusions shared in this book.

Here is a bit from the preface to whet your appetite:

"Few doctrines have been as much the occasion of controversy among evangelical Christians as the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. This book treats of that doctrine, and is therefore controversial. But controversy is not evil; it is the servant of truth. Only prejudice is evil and the enemy of understanding".

And from the Introduction by William W. Adams (Professor of New Testament Interpretation-Southern Baptist Theological Seminary):

"Mr Shank did not request that I endorse the thesis presented in his book. Had he done so, I should have been compelled at this time to refuse"....
"Mr Shank asked only that I write an introduction to his book, and I count it a privilege to honor his request. I consider 'Life in the Son' one of the most significant books in this generation. I consider it possible that the judgement of time may prove it to be one of the most important books ever written".

I have been reading this book sloooowly for the last few months. Not because it is difficult or over theological, but because there is so much bible truth presented in a powerful way that just reading one page can cause me to just stop and wonder at the awesomeness of the truth and I'm off in my thinking about all the implications of that truth!

It is till available from Amazon and others. I can't recommend it enough!!

I no a better book brother ,and that is the one we should read to make up our minds,,,,,,the. Best seller of all times

THE BIBLE

Quote "I no a better book brother ,and that is the one we should read to make up our minds,,,,,,the. Best seller of all times"

Yes very good! I wondered how long it would be before someone made that quip. Of course I agree with that, but that's not my point. Edit: Why not read the book if you are convinced then you will be able to refute it. I have read many books on OSAS and can refute what they say.

How do you take the BIBLE scripture David Fella posted,
Hebrews 3:12-14?? Seems clear to me that it is speaking to 'Bretheren' not to depart! How can you 'depart' from something you have never been at?? How can you be called a 'bretheren', when you are not part of the family??

Here it is again:
"Take heed, BRETHERN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING from the living God. (13) But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you BE HARDENED through the deceitfulness of sin. (14) For we are made partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD THE BEGINNING of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Lol good one hey...???

Well if you bye me the book I'll read it ,i v always preferred the bible ,I normally get the others side of a disagreement from brothers like you who have read books so eather way it doesn't make a lot of different ...

Well for starters the book was written to Hebrews and Jews refure to others Jews as brothers ,...

The evil heart of unbelief is refuring to a false covert or Jewish brothers who hardens his heart by resisting the holy spirits drawing power and does not repent

The key to that's portion of scripture ironically is the last verse that clearly says that you have only been born again by partaking in Christ not if you do not depart from the faith by the Harding of your heart, but if you continue in the confedence ,which at the beginning is small but will allways grow stead fast to the end
This verse teachers that falling away shows that one was not a partaken in Christ,,,only if we endure ,the ones he hypothetical talks about weren't par takers in the beginning,..

It lines up with the letter of John that says he who sin has neither seen God nor known God .......

Edited bad spelling

marcmc,

You don't present any scripture, just reasoning and accusations.

Please give one or at the most two scriptures (to make it manageable) to present the case for OSAS. No reasoning, just the scripture please. Then we can look at these and see if they support that position.

You no davethis thread will get locked soon, so I'm reluctant to say to much about it's subject because I don't one to get any one angry or cause others to say things that may be in appropriate

Quote: "Well for starters the book was written to Hebrews and Jews refure to others Jews as brothers ,... "

Brother Gary (bother because you're in Christ, not because I'm an Aussie :)), that is stretching the meaning a long way out there man! So you say they are unbelieving Jews, yet the same exhortation in this passage to these same people he says in verse 1 "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,"
So which is it? Are they unbelieving Jews or 'holy bretheren', partakers in Christ of whom He is their high Priest? You can't have it both ways or play fast and lose with the clear message to believers.

Yes I do agree the recipients of the letter were Jewish, but they were clearly Jewish believers under pressure to depart back into Judaism because of persecution.

I would be happy to buy you the book. Let me have your address and I will send it to you.

Edit, add: Gary, I just want to make it clear that I arrived at my conviction on this subject, not from reading any book, but ONLY from reading scripture on it's own. In fact at the time I was still in the OSAS camp, I read books supporting OSAS and they convinced me that it was an error because of their mishandling of scripture and weak arguments against the overwhelming number of scripture that warn of departing from the faith.

I don't think it's a stretch man at all you know as well as I do that even amongst all fellowships in all groups there are in converted and unbelievers that is fact

But notice now that where he uses the term holy brothers he also says about them that there are Made partakers, in contrast the the others verses that say you've only been made partakers if your confidence grows to the end ,,, two sperate points Paul is trying to make ,,

He is saying even among the holy brethren who are partakers ,who are fellow country men and brethren , there are those who are not partakers and you know who there are because they fall away and harden there hears through unbelief,..

I honestly think this is what is being said here and it lines up with I John and what Jesus said in the gospel of John ,.,

Ok brother my Aussie brother , really you an Aussie

I think what has helped me continue to believe in the pesaverence of the true Saint, is the poor expositions or no exposition on the verses that have convinced me of that teaching the letter of John and portions of the gospel of John by arminanas

Gary, No I'm not an Aussie! :O Sorry to mislead you. I was just making the point that you are my brother because you are in Christ, that's all!

I want to make it clear also that there are two different positions on OSAS. There is the Calvinist 'perseverance of the saints' and there is the non Calvinist OSAS. I respect the Calvinist position more (yours I believe Gary), although I still disagree, because at least it says those who persevere in faith are truly the saved ones. The non-Cals say if you were once saved, even if you walk away into total rejection and apostasy you will be still be saved in the end. This I think is a perversion of the Calvinist position.

The problem I have with the Calvinist position of perseverance is that they believe if you are truly saved you will not depart. How can that give anyone assurance?? You can believe someone is truly saved, but if later they depart, then you say they were never saved!!!!

Yea I understand and also hate that perverted teaching believe me bro it gets me fuming like the prosperity gospel does ,,...

It seems to giive me much more assurance then I had before when I believed I could lose my salvation ,,it was even how I got some major victory over addiction Befor I was freaking out knowing my life wasnt moving in to a holiness that was demanded of me , and my fear and other emotions seems to keep me in bondage ,,till I relised that I was gods child and he was going to give be victory because of what his sone did in the atonement that Christ had prayed for me ,so that knowledge , broke an addiction to pot, because I new it was defiantly for. Me and that he who began a good work and set me free from harder drugs , would finish and continue the work of santfication freely by his grace ,

This was a break through for ,,but I still apliy the warning verse to me regularly , they still sober me , and rod me , but rather it is a combination of those verses that guide me But more so the promises of never leaving me Like all those a whom the father has given me will come to me and the one who comes to me I will in know ways casts out ,,,,and this is the will of the father that all whom he has given me I will raise up in the last day !!!para quot. !!!

Edit bad spelling trouble with ipad

Thanks Marc, I do appreciate and respect your thoughts and position.

Dave

I believe this sermon gives a clear explanation of this teaching, traces it back to its begining in church history.

https://youtu.be/Ll3C1-Kmozc

God bless.

Not very clear, he takes Jude 5 way out of context, "Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe". He is using the word saved for the folks were delivered out of Egypt, delivered and saved is two completely different things. Being saved is asking Christ into our lives, and believing God sent his only son into this world, to die on a cross, as a sacrifice for our sins.

Jude states he delivered these people, says nothing about any of them being saved, and he says "destroyed those who did not believe". Being saved and believing, is totally different from being delivered out of Egypt. In my opinion this guy is way off, and trying to use this scripture, as most Pastors would do, that do not believe once saved always saved. I personally believe, if you asked Christ into your life, and you believe in Jesus Christ, your headed for Heaven.

I wonder what he might say about this:

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The forgiveness of God through Christ is sufficient to cover all of our sins -- past, present, and future. There is nothing a person can do that God cannot forgive. This doctrine is supported by Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 4:30, and Jude 24; among others.

Much depends on whether "belief" is a ticket to get in or a membership card to stay in.

I used to believe the former, but now I am convinced it is the latter.

Why would God "keep" those who don't believe on His Son?

Mr. Bill,

Can you provide a little bit of information about Edrick?

Where did you find this article that I assume he wrote?

I typed in the title and the name and it led me to this website - epistle.us

If this was the website, can you share your own thoughts about the overall content on the site.

Thanks

makrothumia

makrothumia....Mr. Bill,
Can you provide a little bit of information about Edrick?
Where did you find this article that I assume he wrote?
I typed in the title and the name and it led me to this website - epistle.us
If this was the website, can you share your own thoughts about the overall content on the site.
Thanks
Makrothumia

I do not know where this article come from, it was passed on to me through a friend in an email.I keep it because I read it a couple times a week for my own good, I don't know anything about the author, but I do believe the words hold a lot of truth, at least in my case.

There's so much I disagree with about the article the bill posted that I won't even start to refute it with biblical contextual arguments so to speak ,but if it comes from someone from the web sight you mentioned then it doesn't surprise me !

After serching yes I found the artical was written by a a so called gay Christian who operates with in a group of others whom the web sights says are gay ect this is one of there liberal devotional They promote on this sight amongst other false teachings ,and should not be promoted on sermon index!

Brother Herndon,
I apologize for the delay (drove across 5 states today) and very much appreciate the candor in your response. There seems to be a common perspective as some of the points/references you brought up are shared in my own search for the truth on this matter. You were correct in thinking the reference was to Hebrews 6 and while it is quite a weight to balance, it seems that once we find the basis of truth (where the word is no longer divisible) then we should have a shared perspective with the writer of Hebrews and find this passage as seamless and symmetrical with our understanding as it is his, to the point that it is "a given" in reference to the context of our faith.
This is a most interesting chapter for a host of reasons and while it is (as are all) subject to interpretation, this one is an anomaly in that Jesus is referred to as our forerunner, which in light of the build up from chapter 5 into 6 culminating in verse 20 reveals a very interesting aspect of the expectation of our growth in Christ. Unfortunately as a whole I do not believe the church to be up to the standard of 6:1 and very much needing the reproof found in the preceding chapter and I believe it is precisely because of this issue that has caused such division in the body for 1600 yrs or so. The lack of a common basis of faith has been (from my studies) the church's undoing for so long now that it's become a "just don't go there" issue because some have allowed the root of bitterness to spring up and it has indeed defiled many on both sides and alas she has lost the power and authority she once had due to the immaturity found in chapter 5.
So the question I use to dig with is why?
Why did we get it wrong,...
Why (as you stated) does this verse in chapter 6 cause problems in both camps positions?
Why doesn't this make perfect sense to us?
Why do both camps have to cherry pick scripture to become solvent?
This means (for me) that neither camp (eternal security or holiness) can in and of themselves be correct as their methods of scriptural justification lack the integrity of intellectual honesty.
This led me to also look for what they do agree on that scripture isn't implicitly clear about?
The reason this approach seemed appropriate to me was because there seems to be allot of assumptions on both sides regarding the issues at hand and while our God is patient He is not mocked.
Ironically the very things they agree on are the things that aren't implicit in scripture and the things that are clear they often debate and divide over. What I'm getting at is I believe both are more concerned with being right rather than being righteous and this has led to a presumptuousness that has acted as a ceiling which has limited the growth that chapter 6 shows we are expected to experience but haven't.
So in light of the fact that I too am rambling;) I'd like to ask you a question I was asked by my wife once,... "If you found yourself on a deserted island, not ever having really heard the gospel or read the bible but only having the basic human questions about a god and not indoctrinated by the teachings of man, and a bible washed up on shore and you read it.... what would you believe?

MrBill,

What possessed you to post such an article?? When I first read it I thought it was so wacko that it did not warrant a response, but as others have picked up on it and you have justified your post, I must say I am amazed at your lack of discernment at what clearly is a diatribe against truth and righteousness. It's the sort of thing I would imagine that would have been said by the men of Sodom to Lot!

JFW wrote: "If you found yourself on a deserted island, not ever having really heard the gospel or read the bible but only having the basic human questions about a god and not indoctrinated by the teachings of man, and a bible washed up on shore and you read it.... what would you believe?"

Great point! I think this is a principle we should always take when reading the scriptures. I try to do this in my reading.

Regarding the Hebrews 6 passage about those who turn away, yes it is a passage that has caused much debate and strange interpretation, mainly for the reasons you give. I do think this and other such statements in Hebrews are consistent in teaching us something about apostasy.
I looked into this passage in depth some time back and the words used are interesting. What this passage says is NOT that that those 'who fall away' or backslide in some sin, but those who 'turn away onto another path'. It is a wilful thing, a deliberate turning away from the gospel of grace, and in this case turning to Judaism. This is the same as the Hebrews 10 passage that says if we willfully sin. Look at the context here, it is not just any sin, but a trampling the Son of God underfoot, treating the blood of the covenant as a common thing and insulting the Spirit of grace. It is here the danger of not being able to repent seems to be implied.

No we are not rejected or cast out by 'falling' snare to a sin, or even if we
start to backslide, but we should fear that if we start to drift and don't get back to safety quickly, we could drift too far to the point that the heart becomes hardened and wilful in it's departing from the One who can save us.

Dave, first of all I never knew were this article come from until someone mentioned it here, also do words have to come from saints before they are valid? I'm not going to argue the article, but I personally find some truth in it, regardless, if I posted something that had no truth at all, then I'm sorry, but personally after being in the Church since 1958 I have personally witnessed some of the actions from "some" Christians. If you want to point out the things in the article, that are not valid please do, I'm always open to a better understanding. Dave, if your argument against the article, is related to the writer, would it have made a difference if Billy Graham wrote it? This is one of the major issues with the Church, is we're not open to others opinions unless they are Pastors, men/women of faith, regardless of what the article says, I'll say it in 5 words, "some Christians are a mess". There are thousands of false teachers in the Church today, and we don't seem to have an aggressive attitude towards them, but let someone that represents the people with a different lifestyle, that I don't personally condone, write an article that does hold some truth, we're all over it. Good thing Benny Hinn or TD Jakes or other false teachers did not write it, some of us may have actually, believed it. Again, I did not post the article as a written in stone article, it was meant to be a generality about some Christians. I have posted this article here before and never received any bad feedback, of course if we can read it and not take it personal, it might help us to understand, that there are "some" Christians and Pastors out there that are a mess.

Bill,

I know nothing of the source or the person who wrote the article. I don't need to because it is evident in itself that it is a completely false position seeking to justify their sinful life.

Where would I start in pointing out the error? It's wrong from beginning to end. Take just this part, which revealed to me the heart and purpose of the article. That alone woild be enough for you to avoid like the plague

" We as Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Christians are accused of NOT being "true" Christians because of our perceived "lifestyle", saying we can't be GLBT and Christian, or that our lives negate the saving grace of Jesus Christ. But the last time I checked, salvation was open to all who believed: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3: 16"

Edit.... If Billy Graham or even one of the apostles wrote it, it would still be wrong. Remember what Paul wrote in Galatians......."If I or even an angel preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed". Sober words!

So I'm ok to get some truth from Joseph smith writings ,and read parts of the Book of Mormon every week to remind of what the teaches ,

Would Paul of John say to Christians its ok to sift through the gnostic gospels of Tomas and Mary ,and even in courage other Christians to do that,..

Bill that is totally an unbiblical propositions to make and to expect sermon index members and Christians in general to do .
Rather then justafie bad judgment on your part with anti bibilical recommendations , just say sorry I was wrong and toss that rubbish I the gutter were it came from ...

Then we can move on !

by Heydave
MrBill,

What possessed you to post such an article?? When I first read it I thought it was so wacko that it did not warrant a response, but as others have picked up on it and you have justified your post, I must say I am amazed at your lack of discernment at what clearly is a diatribe against truth and righteousness. It's the sort of thing I would imagine that would have been said by the men of Sodom to Lot!

I'm not sure but anyone read past ""We as Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Christians are accused of NOT being "true" Christians because of our perceived "lifestyle", saying we can't be GLBT and Christian..""??

Because he did in fact have several TRUE things to say about the current state of church.

'Wacko' or not, he was right on with this following statement:

///And I can't tell you how many times I've heard stories from former Christians who left the faith because of the antics of "true" Christians. A nun who physically beat them as a child. A pastor who told a family that their dead father probably ended up in hell. A family member who refuses to see another member because they think he/she is a sinner. A pastor who told a divorced member to leave the church. The Christian family who kicked their 16 year old gay son out of the house. Endless stories of "true" Christians who destroy the salvation of others over perceived imperfection, sin and mistakes...which Christ by the way...died for.

The list is endless of people who left the faith, NOT because of unbelief in God, but because of the controlling, unsympathetic, cold, insensitive, nastiness and fanaticism of their Christian pastors, clergy, members, friends and family.///

About 15 yrs or more ago, I backslid and I found the majority of people in the bars (I attended in the Biblebelt) were EX-church goers and left because of the very reasons he mentioned AND more!

The last two sentences in this paragraph I find very true and definitely not wacko...

///Arguing about this nonsense doesn't only NOT make non-believers want to become Christians, but it just makes us look like a mess. That is also why non-believers are AFRAID of Christians. Because we appear koo-koo AND are trying to take over of the government. We ramble on and on about stupid issues, but most of us fail to do the one thing that will convince them that Jesus is real. We fail to love them.///

I'm just replying to point out some of the accurate things that he stated no matter what group he aligns his self with. He, obviously, has been hurt by the church at large.

If we turn people off b/c they are gay or lesbian and don't actually listen to them, what good are we? If you only love those who love you, what good are you?

If Christians can learn to stop ministering to others from their bias and learn to start ministering in love of God, I think we'll see revival!!

Lisa

Chapter 2
Jesus gave the twelve Nephite disciples power to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. About A.D. 401”“421.

1 The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, as he laid his hands upon them””

2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.

3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.

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Just some thing to think about , wow

Some accurate stuff here

I do not wish to refute the claims put forth in the article written by Edrick. I do desire to put forth a word of caution.

While having a zeal without knowledge creates grievous hurts to many, and strife among those called to live in harmony with one another mars the testimony of our Lord; nevertheless there is an even greater danger than these.

The New Testament describes this danger as a "hidden reef", which the unsuspecting will shipwreck their faith upon.

This hidden reef is the message of false teachers; men who slip secretly into the church. Their message is characterized as appealing to men's carnal desires. They promise peace and security to many. They flatter men with smooth speech and lead them astray with false logic.

Their message appeals to those who are not willing to endure sound doctrine. They draw away disciples after themselves by their appealing, welcoming, comforting, approach to ministry.

This is what concerns me. Is it not obvious that men like Edrick would reject sound doctrine even if it were whispered or spoken in brokenness and tears? Why is it not evident that it is the "truth" that he opposes? Why is it not evident that he would accuse Peter, Paul, John, Jude and Jesus of being judgmental and unloving.

Men like this do not want to see the Jesus who deals with the churches in Asia Minor. "I have given her time to repent and she is unwilling. Behold I will cast her and all who commit adultery with her into a bed of great suffering, unless they repent from her works. And I will kill her children by a plague and they will all know that I am the one searching the hearts and kidneys to give to each one according to your works."

Men like Edrick, and many who echo the accusation against men of righteousness would not agree with the way Jesus deals with His own. Such men hate and reject sincere believers who are simply echos of the truth, faithful witnesses who are hated by the world simply for receiving the words of our Lord.

In summary, once again, the pain caused by unrighteous actions of Christians is something to genuinely mourn over; but a very real and grave danger exists from men who would not harm a flea, whose words are smooth, and whose message is a welcome to all.

makrothumia

Exactly ,,,how many people reject the truth of the gospel and the call to repentance and claim that that it is why they feel away and hate church or Christians ,,,,,

What did Jesus say the world hates me because a declare that there works are evil,,,,,,many many people will be offend at not just the false Christians and the legalism and judgment ,but also the true message ,and in reality the bible teachers that it is the truth that is the stumbling block and that is the truth that is seen as foolish ,,,

Jesus alsothe it will be the mark of the true Christian, to be heated by the world ,those who hate the Christians and his message the most will be the ones who are exposed to it the most ,..

We don't know for sure edrik and is band was exposed to To consider that generally all Christians are messed up and judgmental towards him but it is more then like some of that would also be plane othadox conservative Christianity ,,because much of that baloney processed brand of common hipachistianity that we have on TV and in mega churches ,seem to be excepting of the gay lifeline some what and are least like to preach on sin and there for not come across as judgmental

Lysa,

I think you have completely missed the intent of the article Bill posted. It was NOT about reaching out to those caught in sin with compassion and love that they might repent and be saved. It's mesage was 'professing believers should be accepted as Christians and saved while they live in disobedience and open sin, in particular sexual immorality'.
Do you agree with that premise?

In order to learn, would you please copy and paste what is not sound doctrine in Edrick's letter (besides his being gay, he made that plain). I'm not being hardheaded, I would sincerely like to know what I am missing.

Fletcher,

I completely agree that neither camp in and of themselves can be correct and I also agree that some are more concerned with being right rather than holy. I use to be one of them! I was raised in one church the majority of my life. I knew the teachings that came from that pulpit and nothing else. In 2009 I had the opportunity to spend a couple of months in Cork, Ireland on a missions internship. I interned with other believers from all around the world and each brought what they had been taught. This was the first time that my beliefs had been challenged. They would ask me questions and all I knew was I believe this because my pastor taught this. So when I left and returned to the states I was determined to know what I believed and why I believed it. It was in these studies I discovered Calvinism and the whirlwind of confusion began. I became so obsessed with trying to have correct teaching about Jesus I almost completely forgot about Him. It was AW Tozer who pulled me out of the whirlwind. I read a story about a young seminary student approaching Tozer and asking him for some information that would give him the advantage when his friends began to discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism. Tozer told him when your friends began to discuss that go to your room and spend time with the Lord and when you graduate you will be much closer to God than your friends are. So even though I enjoy learning doctrine and debating non essentials I always keep in mind that a relationship with Jesus is much more important than knowing a bunch of facts about him :) and your question about being on the island is a very sobering one! Honestly I'm not sure but I think that is how we should come to the bible. With no preconceived ideas because like I mentioned earlier the bible is inerrant but our interpretation and ideas are not.

Brother Dave, I wrote this afterwards, " I never knew where this article come from until someone mentioned it here, also do words have to come from saints before they are valid? I'm not going to argue the article, but I personally find some truth in it, regardless, if I posted something that had no truth at all, then I'm sorry".

Key words in this "but I personally find "some" truth in it, regardless" Dave I did not write the article, it was sent to me in an email, a few years back. I read it as a child might read it, leaving out my discriminatory mind, and read it for face value. I have some questions for you Brother, is there just no truth in it? was it just all lies? or was it the author that made you upset about it?

Dave, God used a Donkey to get a message across, "Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and it said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?". This scripture says to me God can use anyone or anything can be to get a message across to us. Dave I'm not insinuating God used this person for anything, but do you know he didn't?

To get the folks off me because I did not write this, I was just the messenger. If this article personally offended you, I am sorry, please forgive me. I will say this, if we were half as aggressive towards the false teachers in the Church today, as some have been towards this article, the Church would be in a lot better state. Dave, I feel as though you might like to tar and feather me, again i'm sorry if this article made you blow a gasket, please forgive me.

Brother Dave,
yes and Amen as that is very similar to my findings in searching out the scriptures, praying and meditating on this matter.

Brother Herndon,
Ha! Yeah I guess we all have been in the position of desiring to be right more than righteous, especially after being confronted and challenged by scriptural torpedoes that bust our paradigm, that simply can't be accounted for from the position we've taken. This is precisely where the sheep and goats are beginning to be divided; are we going to embark to create a cirque du soleil (circus of the sun) attempting to build a kingdom for God that is attractive, wildly entertaining and comforting to the world and measure its success in the pragmatic terms of how many seats are filled, how many are participating in our programs? Or are we going to tear down our golden calves and start over from scratch (again), requiring the same intellectual honesty and integrity in the laying of the last brick as in the first, being certain that it squares with the cornerstone?
(Note: not suggesting that a full house or a popular discipleship program is counter to the gospel, just that it should not be the measure of success)
It seems the first group is predominate in all its many facets, they ironically (tho logically) debate and divide over the methods they used to sidestep the weighty scriptures that don't line up with the answers they offer, each arguing that theirs is the right way to divide the scriptures. Interestingly from their perspectives each are right,...in that they weigh the issue in light of a particular principal or aspect and came to the "loving" conclusion. An example of this is found in the recent thread brother Tim Dolfan started where he inquired about "compassion" being a driving or motivating force of a particular group who were seeking justification in accepting openly unrepentant sinners (practicing homosexuals) into positions of membership and ministry. Now if reaching those who know not Christ by a means of compassion is the motive one subscribes to then this is indeed found to be not only a loving but logical course of action, even tho there are clear scriptural commands to the contrary this group will sacrifice those on the altar of consensus and exalt the ones that serve their objective. Most do this in one way or another and one only need observe to see which are exalted and which are dismissed from any particular group which reveals not only their objectives but also their methods of achieving said objectives.
However is that the directive of Christ that we are charged with...?
Is that seeking the kingdom and its righteousness or is it building a kingdom based on our being convinced we are right?
I mean if we are to accommodate Matt 7:21 where most who have had a salvific experience and believe they are "saved", are not only not lukewarm but proactive in their ministries are not entering in to the kingdom then somewhere something very subtle, very fundamental was overlooked and an excuse was made to accommodate the error (not taking the whole council and dividing rightly the word) rather than a humble repentance offered to the Lord.
I too found brother Tozer to be a man whose pursuit of truth is of great value in my own search as he wasn't to be trifled with in matters of theology and while he wasn't the greatest orator nor his ministry one of dynamic expression, his intimate relationship with the Lord was revealed in his humility and I find his "flavor" as a main ingredient in the ministries of many of the great preachers promoted here on SI.
Having said this, just because I came to the same conclusions as a man I respect and hold in such high regard doesn't mean that the findings are true according to the one who sits on the throne of heaven and brother Tozer won't be standing there with me as my advocate, for Christ and Christ alone is the measure by which all things and peoples will measured and it is to Him alone that the devotion of our hearts must remain.
I mean believing something doesn't make it true no matter how many agree, for if so the world would be flat as many believed this for millennia but it was round the whole time,... but this did in fact make it "true" for them in that their fear kept them on a flat earth, so much so that after it was initially proven to be round some refused to accept this as their livelihood was based on a false premise that they (understandably) found difficult to be divorced from.
I find the church has been in a very similar position for quite some time now, for when we should be mature and authoritative, we are conflicted and much of our time here is spent proving our points to our brothers trying to get them in our camp as if salvation is a "no child left behind" scenario.
So to cut to the chase and present the question that confronted me in the same year you were confronted 2009, (a year that seems many had similar experiences of mercy) was a question that tho I've sought the answer from many saints saltier than myself, no peace was found in any of the offerings until earlier this year when the Lord in His mercy gave a lil light on this question after preparing me to receive it for 6 yrs. So for integrities sake I'll refrain from putting the cart before the horse and just simply offer the question that many have been wrestling with in hopes that we may come to an understanding of Gods will for us in Christ Jesus that truly unites us in
faith and helps to reconcile the two camps.
Many times we hear "God is in control" and that's true but surely He is not in control of everything. For example when a few years ago a man put his newborn into a microwave and turned it on to make him stop crying... Are we prepared to show scripturally that God sovereignly directed this man to do this? If not, then this begs the question...

Where does the sovereignty of God end and the free will of man begin?

Mr Bill, Firstly I have not blown a gasket that I'm aware off. Lol. And I certainly don't want to tar and feather you!
However you must have posted the article for a reason, but you just left it without comment.

Just tell us what your intent was of posting such an article on a discussion about OSAS. What is the point you want to make in regard to OSAS using this article?

That is a great question! But again it is one I do not have an answer for. I think God is so sovereign He can allow free will and still get the result He wills. For example Jesus dying on the cross. The men wanted Jesus dead. I don't think God was doing mind tricks on them. They were fulfilling the will of God in their free will. But in situations like you mentioned with the baby I cannot explain that. We live in a fallen wicked world. I'm not sure why things like that happen but I do think that God is in control of not letting more things like that happen. If He removed His hand this world would be even more wicked even more chaotic. But why He allows somethings I do not know and I don't know if we will truly ever know. I know it is cliche but His ways truly are higher than ours and we will not always understand why God chooses to prevent some things and allow other things. But some how in whatever He does it is done for His glory.

Lysa,
Are you serious! What has already been stated by myself and others explains the error. Read Makrothumia's post, it explains a lot.
Are you defending the position taken by this article?

"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent dceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"

And the serpent said to Eve, "Has God indeed said".

Satan said to Jesus, "It is written".

I won't waste my time anymore on this particular false teaching. If you don't want to or can't see it then well, what can I do for you?

Dave, I went back and deleted the whole post, can we just lay this to rest? I'm not one to get caught up into the disagreements here or anywhere for that matter. What lead me to post it? I can't answer that, what leads a lot of Christians in life to do some of the things they do? I guess sometimes only God knows. Have a wonderful day.
God Bless
Mr. Bill

Well I better go deleted the verses I poster from the Book of Mormon,tho I think my point was missed by those I hoped my get it ......

Good post jous ua,,,,,,

You also seemuch of gods Sovren will in action In the Old Testament
When he uses men and there will and choices to bring judgment according to his and hand and pourpus ,,, another way to look at it which is how I see it it is ..

That after God brought his curse down on Adam and his offspring the carnal natural man was born whose will is bound to his carnal mind romans7 says that in this state nothing good dwells but rather man can only want to do what is wright but he finds no power to perform that which is right the souvrenty of God planed and did this for gods pourpus and it is the souvrenty of God that reliesesthe carnal man out of this state to perform and produce good will and good works

The best man can produce in this carnal state is the desire to do right and the desire to have faith ,,,,,,God must free his will to perform and to have a godly motivation

Just some to think about this was from John weasly about the greatest preacher who was a stanugh Calvinist George whtfield

"In his public labors he has, for many years, astonished the world with his eloquence and devotion. With what divine pathos did he persuade the impenitent sinner to embrace the practice of piety and virtue! [Filled with the spirit of grace, he] spoke from the heart, and, with a fervency of zeal perhaps unequalled since the day of the Apostles, [adorned the truths he delivered with the most graceful charms of rhetoric and oratory.] From the

And, first, let us keep close to the grand scriptural doctrines which he everywhere delivered. There are many doctrines of a less essential nature, with regard to which even the sincere children of God (such is the present weakness of human understanding) are and have been divided for many ages. In these we may think and let think; we may "agree to disagree." But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of "the faith which was once delivered to the saints;" and which this champion of God so strongly insisted on, at all times, and in all places!

2. His fundamental point was, "Give God all the glory of whatever is good in man;" and, "In the business of salvation, set Christ as high and man as low as possible." With this point, he and his friends at Oxford, the original Methodists, so called, set out. Their grand principle was, there is no power (by nature) and no merit in man. They insisted, all power to think, speak, or act aright, is in and from the Spirit of Christ; and all merit is (not in man, how high soever in grace, but merely) in the blood of Christ. So he and they taught: there is no power in man, till it is given him from above, to do one good work, to speak one good word, or to form one good desire. For it is not enough to say, all men are sick of sin: no, we are all "dead in trespasses and sins." It follows, that all the children of men are, "by nature, children of wrath." We are all "guilty before God," liable to death temporal and eternal.

3. And we are all helpless, both with regard to the power and to the guilt of sin. "For who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean" None less than the Almighty. Who can raise those that are dead, spiritually dead in sin None but He who raised us from the dust of the earth. But on what consideration will He do this "Not for works of righteousness that we have done." "The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord;" nor do anything for the sake of which they should be raised to life. Whatever, therefore, God does, He does it merely for the sake of His well-beloved Son: "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities." He Himself "bore" all "our sins in His own body upon the tree." He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Here then is the sole meritorious cause of every blessing we do or can enjoy; in particular of our pardon and acceptance with God, of our full and free justification. But by what means do we become interested in what Christ has done and suffered "Not by works, lest any man should boast;" but by faith alone. "We conclude," says the Apostle, "that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law." And "to as many as" thus "receive Him, giveth He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe in His name; who are born, not of the will of man, but of God."

4. And "except a man be" thus "born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." But all who are thus "born of the Spirit" have "the kingdom of God within them." Christ sets up His kingdom in their hearts; "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." That "mind is in them, which was in Christ Jesus," enabling them to "walk as Christ also walked." His indwelling Spirit makes them both holy in heart, and "holy in all manner of conversation." But still, seeing all this is a free gift, through the righteousness and blood of Christ, there is eternally the same reason to remember, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

5. You are not ignorant that these are the fundamental doctrines which he everywhere insisted on. And may they not be summed up, as it were, in two words, -- the new birth, and justification by faith These let us insist upon with all boldness, at all times, and in all places; -- in public (those of us who are called thereto), and at all opportunities in private. Keep close to these good, old, unfashionable doctrines, how many soever contradict and blaspheme. Go on, my brethren, in the "name of the Lord, and in the power of His might." With all care and diligence, "keep that safe which is committed to your trust;" knowing that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but this truth shall not pass away."

What julius mentioned was weasly early views of Calvinism, and why I posted were some of his changed views, he once said some very strange thing wen he was just born again ,like he didn't believe any Calvinist new God, then stating that geoargewhitfield ,was closest thing we can get the the apostals in labour and holiness

Just one small exhortation from John weasly about George Whitfield,and the division of Calvinism and Arminianism, and how he had the end of his life viewed the conflict...

8. How amiable a character is this! How desirable to every child of God! But why is it then so rarely found How is it that there are so few instances of it Indeed, supposing we have tasted of the love of God, how can any of us rest till it is our own Why, there is a delicate device, whereby Satan persuades thousands that they may stop short of it and yet be guiltless. It is well if many here present are not in this "snare of the devil, taken captive at his will." "O yes," says one, "I have all this love for those I believe to be children of God; but I will never believe he is a child of God, who belongs to that vile congregation! Can he, do you think, be a child of God, who holds such detestable opinions or he that joins in such senseless and superstitious, if not idolatrous, worship" So we may justify ourselves in one sin by adding a second to it! We excuse the want of love in ourselves by laying the blame on others! To color our own devilish temper, we pronounce our brethren children of the devil! O beware of this! -- and if you are already taken in the snare, escape out of it as soon as possible! Go and learn that truly catholic love which "is not rash," or hasty in judging; that love which "thinks no evil;" which "believes and hopes all things;" which makes all the allowances for others that we desire others should make for us! Then we shall take knowledge of the grace of God which is in every man, whatever be his opinion or mode of worship: then will all that fear God be near and dear unto us "in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

It changes it alright ,normally to another word I don't want , ipad,,point I was make is compare weasly said later views to the early quote you posted ,it shows that he obviously didn't believe in the end believe that Calvinism rendered preaching and holy living in vain !

Come on now don't play silly you know what I ment ,cut past that part you didn't understand ,,mabey you should have taken a course on hieroglyphics!! Lol jokes

Wow, this thread really exploded...

Julius21 - I agree with you that it is our responsibility to trust God.

But there are instances like Luke 22:32, where Jesus prayed that Peter's faith will not fail. And Jesus was confident in God's ability and willingness to answer His prayer, because He said to Peter, "when you have returned to Me...".

So in the Bible, there seems to be a sense of God's safeguarding His people, even when their faith is weak. I don't know what theological conclusions can be drawn from this... but how many of us can claim to fully trust God all the time, in every area of our lives?

On a practical level, I know that - by my own strength - I cannot keep myself from sin in daily living. But I can give up my strivings and trust God to keep me.

RE///If some are predestined to heaven and some to hell, .............. and many infants are going to hell.///

That is my understanding of what Calvin taught.

Calvin believed that Guilt and condemnation where imputed to the child at birth or more accurately at conception, he taught that sin was the infants very nature.

speaking of the infant calvin writes :
"Nay,their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious-and abominable to God."

he got this assumption not from the Bible but from Augustine.(hence the reason of infant baptism : to remedy
the sin nature of the infant)

Calvin himself lost a child.

Calvin took 1 Corinthians 7:14 and used it to argue that those infants that die that are born from believing parents like himself will go to heaven and those whom are born from unbelieving parents died unclean.
add:(Can be found p.52 "John Calvin Treatises against the Anabaptist..")

This misuse of scripture hurts many today because than the question today is sometimes asked by women whom lost a child before they where saved. Is the child in hell?

But that is not Bible that is Augustinianism and his doctrine of original sin.

The Bible teaches that sin is imputed when one breaks the law. (no law : no sin) "sin is not imputed when there is no law."
the Bible teaches that "sin is the transgression of the law"
It does not teach that sin is imputed intrinsicly at conception.
I have never known a child that had a guilt or condemnation issue at birth. All without exception are "naked and not ashamed." alive to innocents rom 7:9.
all children are born innocent all are born into a world of law but not born comprehending law.

Marc mc,

I said to you way back on this thread that all you were doing was making accusations and presenting human reasonings, plus you give no scripture to support your opinions.

You're still doing this and come across as extremely arrogant as well. Is this the fruit of your Calvinistic theology?

Heydave said.."presenting human reasoning's".

This is 3 powerful words quoted above, we humans with finite minds will never know it all, or even come close to figuring out God. There will always be unanswered questions, that man cannot answer, only God has the answer.
Can I Get A Amen!

Bill that is true.

When I read Calvin I find very little that I agree with but when I read the Calvinist Spurgeon I find very little that I disagree with.

such issues are really a none issues

Amen Mr Bill!

Amen to PP's last post as well! The part about Spurgeon that is. Very little, but some disagreement.

It has been a while since my last visit to the site, but was intrigued by the lively discussion on a topic wrangled many times over the years- even those years from the distant past dating back to Augustine!

It is interesting to me that people seem to think that the thing that makes sin most abhorrent to God is the way it is a part of our nature. Actually, the opposite is true. Any being that performs according to its nature is essentially guiltless. Just as we don't inflict capital punishments on our pets and small children when they damage household items left within range, we recognize that children are curious and put things in their mouths, dogs are playful and like to tear things up with their powerful bite. It is in their natures.

What makes us different is our moral compass and force of conscience. As James notes, "He that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

He is making a reverse of the notion that if you know something is bad, you should not do it.

For me, raised and indoctrinated as a Calvinist, seeing the error of that thinking was at the same time devastating and exhilarating. While I believed that way I was blind to the fact that I hated God in all His unfairness. As Supreme Being, He could do whatever He wished, the potter and the clay argument. Who am I, wretched sinner with a sinful nature, guilty of my father's sin, guilty of Adam's sin- totally depraved and unworthy. My depraved logic said, "OK, but I don't have to like it!"

There were many scriptures that, with the help of a good friend who had a different understanding and a compassionate spirit toward me, lead me into a phenomenal realization of how God's love works.

To begin with: James says the wisdom from above is pure, peaceable, easy to understand. God is not afraid of my ability to reason, and expects my reason to flow in accord with the truth about Himself He wants me to enjoy.

Speaking of reason, the things He commands me to do are reasonable and doable. Deuteronomy 30:11 says "This law that I command you this day is not too hard for you, you can do it." Somehow, this removes that favorite excuse we love- God's law is too hard for us. He disagrees.

And Paul brings it up in Romans 10, he knew that verse too.

But the clincher for me was Ezekiel 18, too long to fully quote here. In this passage, the prophet hears and relates a complaint God has with His people. "You say, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge.' You are no longer to utter that saying in the land of Israel!"

What does that mean? The whole chapter puts it together, that every individual is responsible for his own sin, and accountable to live in righteousness. It is a serious rebuke of the doctrine that had crept into that culture suggesting that the sinful nature is passed down from fathers to sons. As I meditated on this passage it became clear to me that my sin was my fault, my problem, my choices to please myself rather than to please God. I would stand before my creator with absolutely no valid excuse for the evil I had welcomed into the life He had given me.

It was the Holy Spirit who drove that home, and allowed me to finally see that Jesus died for me because He loved me, not because it was some predetermined program to save some, condemn others.

Something often overlooked in these discussions is the critical importance of God's trinity. Calvin's concept of God missed the fact that the Father and the Son are lovingly accountable to one another. The behavior of one is always under the scrutiny of the other and neither has any right to be unjust or arbitrary. If one were to seize an autocratic role in the Godhead, all virtue would dissolve and we would have Allah. You already know what that God is like!

Once saved always saved is real. But it is based on submission to Christ without reservation, a man flooded with the Holy Spirit whose soul thirsts for Him alone, a man whose heart is sealed with that Spirit as referenced in Ephesians 1, but it is never beyond that individual's prerogative to abandon the covenant.

Nothing in scripture suggests anything like that, and just as the New Testament writers often said "If ye continue..." so also Ezekiel says in the above mentioned passage- if a man chooses to leave his righteousness and turn his back on God, his prior righteousness will not be remembered for him at the judgement.

John Calvin had a nasty habit of murdering those who disagreed with his theology. The Institutes are a monumental work, but in my mind the TULIP premises are flawed. As I have come to know God through His Son, He is a God of relationship, He made me to love and while He eager desires I love Him back- He cannot force it and call it virtue.

I do love Him, immensely and more with each passing day. But I am always aware of His obligation to govern the universe and His absolute obligation to protect the integrity of His law. It was the mingling of His law and His love that sent Jesus to the cross- enabling Him to save all men while at the same time not obligating Him to save anyone.

Thus the Gospel- Repent and believe!!

Brother Tom,
While we come from a lil different upbringing (mine CoC) your findings are very similar to my current understanding. It became clear to me that while the love of God is unconditional, salvation is not as we must continue to abide by faith to the end. The word that changed everything for me was one you mentioned, "if"... there were so many aspects I had taken for granted till this was hilighted by the Lord to me. Once my eyes were opened to the implications of its consequence, it (the word if) began to jump off the page in scriptures where before the implication went unnoticed, so much so at the time I remember saying that the biggest and most important word in the NT only has two letters and then rattle off a series of scriptures where "if" was the imperitive of the directive. This was done in hopes to awaken others to that which I had been awakened. Once while having this conversation with a client, who could tell that I'd been rocked by something and commented on the change she witnessed from all the questions I was asking on issues that before had been settled and confirmed between us, I asked if she believed OSAS and she said "yes! don't you?" I honestly felt like if I said no that I'd somehow be denying Christ in her eyes, so I said "I want too,...but I'm not sure I can after what I've found the scriptures to say, will you help me?" To which she agreed with confidence and so I said "well I kno you didn't just here a preacher say this and believe it considering yourself "truly saved" and surely you went home and as the scripture itself commands you were a good berean and studied it out to see if it was true, so without presenting all the scriptures that this doctrine has been challenged by for me, I would like to ask you what you did when you came across just one that I can find no way to account for from this perspective". She seemed a bit concerned at this point, anticipating the gravity of what was to come and the utter seriousness of it to me, she remained attentively silent. "What did you do when you came across Revelation 3 when in the letter to Sardis our Lord states in verse 5 that, for those that overcome then He will not blot out their name from the book of life,... I mean if we have overcome and our names are in the book of life we are saved right?" "Well yes" she said. So I asked, "well if it can be blotted out or redacted, wouldn't that mean that we can lose it??? What did you do when you came across this verse in your studies?" This had honestly surpised her and she had apparently not looked at it from this perspective before because she was speechless. Which honestly was the same response I had when confronted by this passage in my own studies. There was a time of silent reflection for us both closing out the remainder of her service where I believe we were both praying and seeking the Lord on this.
There are however scriptures as other saints have pointed out in this thread that seem to suggest that there is something to this doctrine (Ephesians 1, etc..) though when I weigh them in the balance of the whole counsel of the word, (for me) they come up short in that there are other scriptures and the general thrust of the proclamation of the gospel itself seem to be counter to this doctrine to the point that i cannot confess it as truth and again I have a similar position as the one you stated (if I'm understanding you correctly) which is to say there is truth in it but as it's often believed is not much more than wishful thinking by those whom find assurance in it.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Brother Julius,
Amen! And well said:)
and brother Dave I too have learned allot from but do not always agree with Spurgeon's sermons tho I could say the same of Wesley's as well.
A great book from Spurgeon's library that Ravenhill suggested as a most important read is The Christian in Complete Armor by Gurnall (the original is better tho admittedly a more difficult read)

One interpretation of that verse in revaluation be that from birth our names are all written in the book of life ,Iv never met a person that says children don't God to heaven, so there names must be in book of life ,,if we come to Christ and indure to the end as a true Christian will,our names won't be blotted out of the book of life ,,but if we don't come to Christ or don't indure to the end and fall away which is what a false convert ends up doing because the bible says he who is born of God keeps himself and the evil one does not touch him ,then on the day of death or judgment day our names are blotted out of the book , if we believe children go to hell then this interpretation would not gel,but Iv never met a Christian that doesn't believe baby's go to heaven ,so according to that majority belief,all our names must be in the book of life at birth or conception!!

God sure did ordain repobation and rejection it happened at the fall when he decreed the curses to fall on Adam and his off spiring,,,,the natural and carnal mind and man are at enmity against a God ,,God did it ,but thank god I can be reversed

Thus the gospel repent and believe ,,,,,but can the flesh repent and can the sinful flesh believe,mr sidewalk,,',,,well according to Romans 7 it can't it can only will and want to good but how to perform whatis good Paul said I could not find

Gary, your wrote: "One interpretation of that verse in revaluation be that from birth our names are all written in the book of life ,Iv never met a person that says children don't God to heaven, so there names must be in book of life.."

How does that interpretation fit with 'Total Depravity'? If all are born in sin and under God's judgement from birth, how can they all also be written in the book of life? This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to catch you out! :)
Also it certainly does not fit with the limited atonement part of Calvinism (but maybe you don't go along with that part?).

Another side of this question would be to those who DON'T believe in imputed sinfulness of all people at birth. Does that mean that all are therefore in the book of life? That would strangely mean you agree with Gary's position on this.

Tom, I'm thinking about this whole imputed sinfulness issue. I can see why some like you reject it because it is critical to the whole Calvinistic teaching of TULIP. However does that mean this one aspect is unbiblical, even if other parts are? To me the bible does teach imputed sinfulness of mankind in the same way righteousness is imputed by faith when we come to Christ. We are dead in Adam, but made alive in Christ. If we can just be obedient and repent, then where does our need of the saviour come in? What I mean is, if we are without hope and dead in trespasses and sin, surely we need the grace and mercy of God to deliver us and also give us His life and righteousness that we might live in righteousness?

Wesley taught prevenient grace as follows:

"Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift ”” a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!"

As I understand it, this prevenient grace is available to all men and comes when one hears the message of the gospel. Within it (the gospel) is the grace that enables one to respond in faith if they chose to avail themselves of it. This is different to just saying anyone can repent and keep God's laws. I don't think we can, but we can come to the saviour who will then empower us and put His laws within our hearts.

I'm just about off to bed Dave ,,,

I don't see the sin as being imputed or accounted to people at birth ,in the scence of being guilty ,but the nature of the flesh and carnal nature is inherited and at and at a certaint age we become accountable when we develop a concence ,and then sin is imputed, so is the guilt that comes with it .....

Oh I'm not a Calvinist ,Iv never been one ,that is why a lot of what I see as bible truth doesn't line up with historic Calvinism......

So are you saying Dave that prevenient grace allows the flesh the carnal mind to repent and believe ,

Quote: "Oh I'm not a Calvinist ,Iv never been one ,that is why a lot of what I see as bible truth doesn't line up with historic Calvinism......"

Well I'm sorry if I misrepresented you Gary. I thought you had previously said you had been persuaded of that position from certain preachers. Obviously you have a mixture of different views, which is fine. We should not align ourselves with any one 'ism, but seek for truth in all things.

However I don't understand your view that all people are written in the book because they are born without imputed sin, but at the same time are dead in sin and have a sinful nature from birth. In revelation 17:8 it says "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..". So there are those (most) whose names are NOT written in the book of life from the beginning.
Now this could seem to support the Calvinistic view of God choosing some for judgement. However I don't think it does. We have to consider God's foreknowledge. They are in the book because He foreknows everything, but that is not the same thing as determining everything. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God knew he would go the cross, BUT Jesus said it was His own choice (as a man)to go the cross. He could have chosen not to. God the Father did not make Him, but because God is omniscient, He knew He would!!!

You asked: "So are you saying Dave that prevenient grace allows the flesh the carnal mind to repent and believe?"

I would not put it like that. I would say that prevenient grace enables a person to repent and believe. It is not the flesh that has any power in it, but the 'grace' of God that has the power to enable a sinner to repent and believe, despite the flesh. Hope that makes sense. Let mw try and illustrate that (no illustrations are perfect though). If I am lost in the sea with no strength or resource to save me and a helicopter rescue team arrives with a winch to lift me to safety, I can be saved if I take hold and co-operate with the rescuer. It is not my strength or ability, but the power and provision of the winch team (prevenient grace) that saves me. I have to co-operate and if was stupid enough I could refuse the grace offered and I would be lost.

Dave I'm off to work ,so I'll try to explain my view later on,,have blessed daybrother ,,..

Julius your quoting and old covenant command for that nation of israel to follow the law it actually has nothing to do with choosing to be born again,besides thins the ow was given to show the Jews they were all sinners it wasn't made to be kept and therefor justified by keep,but to humble and show sinfulness..

Have a blessed day !

How can you say it's not the law of Moses ? God is saying choose to follow my law and you wil live long in the land or chooses to reject my law and Covent and you will perish and be destroyed,,and yes they can choose to be under the law the flesh has that in it,, the context is right there in the verses you quoted,and if one reads the rest of deoutaronamy it's more the obvious that this is old Covent law keeping,,

You know that ,your just playing again brother!!

Dave my view is that we are all born depraved and sinful ,that is not imputed sinfulness but imparted sinfulness ,,bible says sin is not imputed where there is no law ,,,but as we grow we develop a conceance,when that matures enough it becomes a law of concence, and at that time we begin to sin against out concence willingly and knowingly sin is then imputed we become guilty sinners ...

There are probably those as you pointed whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,which would be due to gods forknowlage it may be a different way of expressing predestination ,that some are not written in at all and Those are the ones who perish. But those who are written are those who receive eturnal life ,if that is what that scripture you tell me ,,,if that is what it is saying then there is a type of election and definitely predestination, the when Jesus says I won't blot your names out of the book of like then he can't be threatening them with the idea that he might do that,but is reassuring them they are predestined , that would line up with ideas that some never had there names in the book from the foundation of the world ,,I know Paul washer taught it like that ..

How would you blend those verses together and expand what they mean ..

What does it mean to not have have your names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ??

But as you mentioned the crusafiction the bible does say that was according to the determined purpose and the forknowlage of God ,,,so that was God determinig that it would happen , yet Peter said it was by your wicked hands that you crusafied and slayed ,,,,so gods determined purpose and forknowing , plus the free choice of sinful man and if you want to add the God induced will of Christ were all in action, but Peter really emphases gods determined purpose,,and scripture in many places seems to back up the idea that (God works all things according to the council of his will)

I don't really know how Calvinist defines gods determined purpose,,but I see gods will and plan being carried out because of his good pleasure, and it is the over arching principal and the primary will in the universe ,a plan he made and plan that is being controlled and eched out by him because it pleases him to do it his way and yet in the eyes of men we think we control our own destiny ,but it is all working acording to the council of his will....

But having said that I don't believe in arbitrary election ,,or blind fold election, there more in it then that type of view

At the same time rember Jesus is fully God and fully man ,and even before the foundation of the world God in Christ chose to go to the cross Jesus the creator God chose to die as a man not only did God who is the father the son and the Holy Spirit know the son would go to the cross it was determined by the God head that the son would incarnate and fullfill the plane ,,so with all respect brother I don't like how you leave all the best parts out of an analogy,,and try to express that God just new Jesus would die of the cross ,and that was all that there was to it....

The full story really expresses God sourvern controls power and glory over mans choices and evil heart there so much that we can milk out of that story and principles that are active therein......

So prevenient grace enables a carnal man who is in the flesh the sinful natural man , to believe ,so man in the flesh can please God to such a degree that through that faith he is justified ,

I don't see how can reconcile Romons 7 and other teachings of Paul with that,

Paul, said that carnal mind is not subject to the law of God neither can it be,,but weasly says that the carnal mind is subjected to prevenieial grace and the unregenerate carnal fleshly mind produces ,with gods help a fruit of the Holy Spirit namely faith through which he is justified .

Is that what he says more or less
.

Hi Gary,

You wrote a lot of posts! I will only pick up on a couple of points otherwise we will be all over the place.

Last first. Your explanation of what I described as prevenient grace...No that is not what it means. You have put your slant on it to make it unacceptable to you. Prevenient grace comes in the message of the gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation). I thought I had emphasised that enough, it is NOT our power, but God's power that saves us. So it is NOT the fleshly mind that is operating, but God's grace (enabling power) given at that moment we avail ourselves of it. Yes it is correct that our carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but God's grace enables us to reach out to Him in faith and then receive a new regenerate heart, which loves God's law.

Romans 7 is definitely Paul speaking about life without the Spirit (unregenerate), otherwise Romans 6 and 8 are not a reality and we are all in bondage to sin (which we are not).

Now to the issue of predestination. Predestination is not used separately from 'foreknowledge' or as part of the corporate body (the Church) in being His special people. It is unbiblical to state that individuals are predestined to salvation. No where does it state that.
Because of God's omniscient foreknowledge of who will be saved, He predestines us to be conformed to the image of the Son (Rom 8:29). He chose us IN HIM (not to be in Him) that we should be Holy and without blame (Eph. 1:4). Having predestined us to BE children BY Christ Jesus. (Eph 1:5). Note, it is always predestined to become something in Christ, NOT predestined to BE IN Christ! There is a huge difference.

We are predestined BECAUSE we are in Christ, not individually chosen to receive salvation. "God desires all men to be saved" and "commands all men everywhere to repent". How does that stack up with God only choosing some (a few) to be saved???

So "what does it mean to not have your names written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ??"

It means God in His foreknowledge knows those who will be saved. He must know if He is omniscient! So as far as God's foreknowledge they are already in His book, but that does not mean He pre-ordained who could be in His book and who could not respond to such great a salvation. David wrote in the Psalms that all his days were written in God's book. Surely that does not mean that everything David did (good and bad) was planned by God and it was His will! That is Islam's god of fatalism.

Sorry about writing so much ,I was just trying to touch on the things you mentioned.

Well I don't think I put any slant on it I just don't think the bible teaches that.
I never said to my knowledge that you said the fleash has the power in itself, I realise that would be pelagisim .

Paul said I'm me that is in my flesh nothing good dwell to will is present but how to perform what is good a can not find ,,he considered who he was before regeneration as flesh and nothing good was in him ,,so the reason why I said what I said and you said that was my slant on it ,was that you seem to be saying that grace inabled Paul before he was bornagain ,to have faith, who are we before regeneration??

The bible-says what I said befor ,fleshy carnal the natural man, that's not a slant brother, it seems like when itslaid it like that maby you don't like the sound of it or you misunderstood and thought I was saying that the carnal fleshy man had the power in him self to repent and believe ..

You said it's not the fleshy mind that is operating but gods grace,,but how so,,,is it not the fleash or the carnal mind that the spirit is operating on so as to enable the mind to believe ,obviously you say this is before regeneration,,so this mind you speak of is the unregenerate carnal mind that this spirit inables to have faith ...........

So in other words we are justified through something that grace induced our fallen carnal flesh mind to express.....I find that hard to believe,maby I need more previnent grace !!! Lol

We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption of Jesus Christ ...that's a worthy saying

Then the bible also says ,,,,, . Therefor having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ..

If both those verses are truth,then faith it's self must also be a grace ,rather then an expression of human mind ,because that's not grace ....

But any way I better stop on that ...

Yea I agree with you about Romans 7 about it talking about the unregenerate,that's why I mentioned that Paul said in that state he could want to do good but found he could not do the good because of the evil that was present with ,,which was the flesh ,it was who he he was .

That was my point that in that sate Paul insists that he could please good ,,,.

And one of the most pleasing things is to have faith and repent and this he could not do because the flesh kept denying the truth and causing the sin of doubt ,,the spirit of grace needs to do more then Inable free will ,it has to disable the fleash and kill the sin of doubt ....

Paul had a mighty revaluation and met Jesus ,and believed...

Well I don't obviously agree on the predenation is meaning forknowlage ,I might not be understanding you there ...

I do interprate being conformed to the image of his son as I future time of glory when in the twinkling of the eye he wil be Changed for we see him has he is ,and will be like him ,,,,,thats salvation ,,,

…29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified .

You can see the flow of the context points to glorafication Paul speaks about it all as a present reality , which points to the reason he uses the term predestined .

It's definitely talking about individuals,,many individuals..

Maby you can explain a little about the in him and to be in him and the big difference there is there so I no what mean exactly

Yea I don't agree at all with the ,,we are predestined because we are in Christ,,

But we are predestined before we were born ,and chosen before we were born ,I'm sure the reason for that can be debated there for we are in Christ as a part of gods plane and pourpus

Paul is clearly explaining to Timothy that he wants all types of men to be saved in the preceding verses he talks about why and he says pray for men from all walks of life ....

Cleary Paul is not saying he wants Timothy to pray for every livingsoul on the earth so he obviously is not saying a few verses later that he wants every soul to be saved ,, it doesn't fit with flow of the context at all ,or with other verses that say false teachers are mark out for destruction, or when Jesus refused to pray for the word to be saved ,but prayed only for those who followed him ,and the others like us who would come to Christ later ..

What I was trying to get from you was wether you thought that those who's names wer not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,was predestined ,or set in concrete,so to speak ,or do you think there names could be added later ,and vicer verses,,,,,,,,the answer to that would obviously effect thee interpretation of the other verse about blotting names out ....

Well it's been good chatting to you my brother , I really appreciate your manner and conduct ,,please don't take me the wrong way ,as some do on social media,,,I like to hear you view points ,and I don't what to offend you with all my remarks ,, I don't normally post so much .......

Blessings to you

Morning Gary!

Yes I enjoy have this discussion when we keep it civilised, as it is beneficial in enabling us to learn from one another. 'Iron sharpens iron'!

Maybe one reason for misunderstanding is not having a correct definition of 'grace'. To many, 'grace' just means 'underserved favour' and not much different from 'mercy'. My understanding of how the bible uses the word 'grace' is to mean 'God's enabling presence and power'. When seen like this it is something active and alive and part of God Himself.

The other misunderstanding is, what it constitutes to be un-regenerate and 'in the flesh'. Does this mean that a man cannot do 'anything' that is profitable or good before he is regenerated? I would suggest that he can. Do you accept that unregenerate men can at times choose to do a good act? This does of course not make one righteous and without the Spirit there is no power to subdue the flesh in a consistent way, but certainly there are many occasions when unregenerate people choose to do the right thing. Therefore how much more with God's grace (enabling power) can a man choose to turn to Christ in faith.
'Faith' and 'grace' are not one and the same thing (otherwise there would not be two different words). We are save BY grace (God's action), THROUGH faith (our response) Eph.2:8. It is an error of Calvinism that states that faith is the gift here. It is grace that is the gift, received through faith.

Quote: "Then the bible also says ,,,,, . Therefor having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our lord Jesus Christ.."

It then goes on to say in the next verse.. "through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
So you see it says what I am saying, 'faith is the access to 'grace'. They are not one and the same.

Quote: "Maby you can explain a little about the in him and to be in him and the big difference there is there so I no what mean exactly"

We are saved BECAUSE we are 'in Him' (Christ) and we are therefore 'predestined' to salvation because we are IN Christ, not predestined to be put in Christ. Let me illustrate using a biblical illustration this time :)
In Noah's day, those who went into the Ark were saved. They were only saved because they were IN the Ark. God did not save them and then put them in the Ark, or predestine any of them to enter the Ark. If one of Noah's sons had chosen not to go in the Ark he would have been lost. In the same way we are saved IF we are in Christ. How do we get to be 'in christ'? By grace through faith.

Quote: "What I was trying to get from you was wether you thought that those who's names wer not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world ,was predestined ,or set in concrete,so to speak ,or do you think there names could be added later ,and vicer verses,,,,,,,,the answer to that would obviously effect thee interpretation of the other verse about blotting names out ...."

The problem with trying to work this out is that we are human and God is not! We cannot really fully understand this side of heaven how God's omniscience (that He knows the end from the beginning) works with our free will. We think that because it is all known to God from eternity, then it must be-ordained, but not so. The bible hold both of these things in tension. As to being in the book and being blotted out this would also be known by God before times. Maybe it is because there are those who God knows will never get into the book of life, but there are others who have got in (by faith in Christ) and then forfeited their inclusion by later rejecting Christ. I'm not going to dogmatic about that. If I had all the perfect answers I would be perfect, and I'm not!

God bless.

I agree with Julius in Dave's response which is very well put. I appreciate the definition also of grace being Gods enabling power and mercy as unmerited favor.

In regards to predestination and Gods foreknowledge, they go hand in hand, you cannot have one without the other which point Dave really drove home.

Some have used the following verse to support predestination without Gods foreknowledge.

Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

God loved Jacob and hated Esau because of their choices which He foreknew not because He predestined them to make those choices.

I just want to say I really appreciated this discussion from everyone and I am really believing the Lord in His mercy to straighten out areas any or all of us are missing it.

For the OSAS group I am in agreement with this verse (one of my favorites).

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

For the rest of us I believe this is the condition to the above verse.

Isaiah 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Wouldn't it be great if God just said read Romans 14 and just love one another!

As tiny Tim would say, "God bless us EVERY ONE"

Brother Dave,
I too found your post well articulated and am blessed not only by the words but the gentle spirit in them:)
Your ideas are somewhat new to me as I had considered the scriptures on predestination and being "in Christ" to be about sanctification and not salvific via Harry Ironsides teaching that certainly all who are reborn in Christ are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ=sanctification. Tho your perspective gives me something to study out:)
As for the names in the book of life, these too (by my current understanding) are put there at the new birth as at that point we become partakers of eternal life which corresponds to the later verse in Rev. about being "from the foundation of the world".
The idea that everyone who is born (natural birth) is written in the book of life never really got traction in my mind because that would mean if/when some are blotted out they would have been erased from the annals of history as if they never existed, which I suppose would support the annihilation camp.
In any case this thread has been profitable for me as well and I'm grateful that Greg has been gracious and allowed it to continue as it is edifying to the body to reason things out and share the light we've been given and not trying to "win".
So having said this,...what are yalls thoughts on "sin nature", born with imputed Adamic, born with a "bent towards it", born pure and get polluted by choice and environment, etc..?
Thanks in advance as this has been a very serious matter for me for some time now and appreciate the understanding of others+:)

Hey everyone,

There have been various theological viewpoints shared in this thread (it's been very hard to keep up!). I believe "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" - that right theology leads to right living, and vice versa. So here are some questions:

Romans 8:13 - "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

The key emphasis in this verse for victory over sin is "by the Spirit". What is your *practical* understanding of this phrase?

Can you provide concrete examples, and share your real experiences of victory over sin?

Well the first major victory for me was at the time I was bornagain through reading the New Testament ,that instant the peace of God came over me ,the sin of doubt disappeared as if by a mirical,,,all doubt left and the presence of God was so real it caused me to believe in God and Jesus in an absolute way ,the next day the conviction of sin was so strong and the amassing holiness of was so real that it caused me to repent ,change my mind about me and about God and Christ ,,this led to victory over a methamphetamine addiction,,then cigarets,,,and then a lif long marajwana,addiction was broken by faith in what Jesus did on the cross ,and realising that because i was a Christian I was going to keep baring fruit and not fall away ,faith that God would not let me go and that he who began a good work would continue it and fininish ,,knowing that he was the author and the finisher of the faith the he delt to me at the moment I was regenerated ,,Iv struggled at times but come through knowing that God went to the trouble of saving me and he is power full enough to by his spirit finish sanctifying me !!

JFW asked: "what are yalls thoughts on "sin nature", born with imputed Adamic, born with a "bent towards it", born pure and get polluted by choice and environment, etc..? "

I think the term 'sinful nature' is an unhelpful one and also not found in scripture. Only in some of the newer translations do they interpose 'sinful nature' for 'flesh'.
I don't think they are the same thing, in that the term can give a wrong impression. The bible makes clear the obvious, that we are all born from Adam and therefore inherit his condition, which is spiritually cut off from the life of God.

In my understanding of scripture, to be 'in the flesh' is to operate and be controlled by our basic 'animal' instincts; the appetites of the flesh and without any other power (life of God) to do otherwise. You could call this a nature, but I would see it more as a lack of a nature. i.e lack of the spirit, which is dead to the life of God.

This leads onto Yuhan's question about walking in the Spirit and not the flesh (I'll post separately on that). Once we are re-born we have a new spirit in union with God. We now have a choice to walk in the 'spirit' or the 'flesh'. A choice we never had before. We don't have two 'natures' in the sense of two 'spirits'. We either walk in the spirit or we walk as we once did in our former life by the appetite of the flesh, quenching and grieving the Spirit.

Gary, great testimony!

I was thinking similar things (not that I was in the same situation as you), that the big experience of walking in the Spirit comes at first when being born again. I similarly had a peace that I had never known before. Where as previously I had been a worrier and sleepless nights, but I was not really aware of how bad it was, the night I came to the Lord the peace was so natural and the difference so stark, I slept well ever since. The other initial instant change was a love for folk in general, nothing I tried to do, but just felt a compassion and love in a way that would never have occurred to me before. I was too concerned about 'me'. Obviously there were the 'common' sins that I now immediately knew were wrong and unacceptable and therefore agreed with God they needed to go.

In our ongoing walk with the Lord, we have a continual choice to walk in the spirit or the flesh. For me this has been simple things like apologising to my wife when I was wrong, telling the truth when the consequence can mean loss to me. Forgiving and loving our enemies. I had an instance in a work situation where a particular person was just causing me much grief and putting me down in front of others. My flesh wanted to get even in some way, but I took it to the Lord and allowed Him to fill me with forgiveness and love, so that when I next met the guy there was nothing in me but generosity of spirit to him. It was not something I tried to put on, but something God put in me as I cooperated with him and chose to walk 'in the spirit'. the result was he changed his whole attitude to me, even if he was still mean to others!

Galatians talks about walking in the Spirit as a pre-condition of not fulfilling the lust of the flesh. We can't do it the other way round. Trying to not fulfil the lust of the flesh in order to walk in the Spirit has no power in it. We need the power of the Spirit to mortify the flesh.

Greetings all in Jesus name, hope everyone is doing well. I haven't read but a few posts but I know what the Bible says. I love everyone but OSAS(Eternal Security) is a doctrine of devils. Our Lord Jesus preached against this deception as well as Apostle Paul, Peter, James, and other.

These sobering Scriptures show that is possible for children of God to fall from their steadfastness, sin and have to be converted, have their name removed from the book of life, etc.

Revelation 3:5 KJV
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

James 5:12, 19-20 KJV
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[19] Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 8:31-32 KJV
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; [32] And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Galatians 5:1-4 KJV
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. [2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN from grace.

Colossians 1:22-23 KJV
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Timothy 4:1 KJV
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1 Corinthians 9:27 KJV
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2 Peter 2:1, 15, 20-21 KJV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; [20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it , to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

John 15:2-3, 5-6 KJV
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 KJV
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Peter 3:17 KJV
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

1 Timothy 6:10, 20-21 KJV
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. [20] O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: [21] Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

The book of Hebrews also talks about not departing from the living God. We must walk and live in the fear of God.

I may later give my take on those verses ..

But I warn you bro not indirectly accuses godly men of the past and present who taught holiness and the doctrine of the perseverence of the saints,of teaching demonic things ,lest you also become like satan ,by accusing those of a pure heart and a good concence ..

Rev 3"5.
We all ready talked about tha verse scripture seems to imply that names were not written in the book of the life from the foundation and that names were ,as Dave pointed out ,so in gods eyes it's a done thing, in the book or not in the book from the foundation of the world, so the verse above is not some threat that contradicts gods forknowing and for recording of the things that will take place ,but a statement of comfort of what will never happen,, a comforting statement rather then a threat of changing what God has all ready recorded and foreseen ,and my belief for ordained ,,...

The second James 5"12

The condemnation here is not the idea of being eturnaly lost ,for swearing and oath,,,other wise any sin that any Christian does like swearing and oath ,like arguing ,or like Peter did when Paul had to rebuke him for hypocrite like behaviour ,,Peter and the rest of us would all be condemned to hell and lose our salvation ,,,,,,James is just saying you'll fall in to judgment and chastisement,,,as Paul said about some who partook in the bread and the wine in an unworthy manner were judge with sickness and even death ,so that in turn they were not judged along with the world ..

James 5"19 to 20

Is not talking about a saint but a sinner being converted from the error of his ways .,,so it is not talking about a saint losing his salvation ...,

The church as Jesus says is full of tares and wheat ,,saints and sinners and that's what James says if there is any of you in the congregation that wanders or errs away from the truth..

John 8"31 is saying if you keep hearing my word ,then you are really my deciples, if you don't ,then you show you were never true disiples..

Gal 5"1"4

Is not saying that you will loseyou salvation. ,but fall from grace ,. Meaning that you will grief the spirit of grace and fallen to the Temptation to walk out you Christian life through the flesh .

The true Children of God hears gods words says John and the children of the devil do not , so the true said will repent of legalism, but the others will not ,...

Col 1"22.
Is another verse that says , if you continue in the faith that was preach to you , it is directed to a church of hearers who are saints and sinners coming to Christ who may or may not have had water baptism like the three thousand souls who were added to the church on the day of Pentecost,who have made a profession of faith like Simon the sorcerer, so in that context that existed and still does exist in our fellowship today a mixture of tares and weat,,,,those that continue to hear will be saved and the Saint will ,but those who don't will be damed ,,,,John says they went out from us because they were not of us if they had been of us they would have continued with us ,but they went out that it might me manfest that they wer never of us, for he who is born of God keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him ...

I tim 4"1 Is speaking not about saints losing salvation , but false teachers and false prophets rise up in the church and out side ,as Jesus taught ,,and these would not be saints but have another spirit as mentioned by Paul these would be the enemy's of the cross of Christ whose end is destruction,,these would led many sinners in to there evil teachings and suduce them with covetus teaching leading sinners away from the truth, this is the apostasy , yet all the wile teachers would claim to be teachers of the way of God and deceive if it was possible even the elect ,,the falling away,, many of the deceived will even haven know the way of righteousness and heard some of there teachings ,and have even been convicted of sin through the Holy Spirit , they may have even begane to repent and change there minds about sin and God ,,but they were never really converted ,there falling away was evidence ,of that ,,because the bible says he who is born of God does not sin for gods seed is in him and he can not sin ,because he has been born of God ....

I cor9 "27. Is saying not that Paul would lose his salvation,but that he would be disqualified as other translations put it ,from preaching,, in the context to Paul letters to Timand Titus,was the requirements for oversears,and deacons , I very high standard of holy living ,and example setting ,,,practicing with he preached ...

2peter 2. Because the atonement was universal in scope Jesus paid the price for the sin of the world ,,he paid the price to release the whole world from slaverey of sin ,so paid to buy the world that we might be slaves of righteousness and of Christ, ,,,hence the use of the term "The lord who bought them """
The rest of that was touched on when I mentioned false prophets early , so I won't repeat that ,but to say that these false projects who Jesus said were false not true because they had bad fruit ,not the fruits of the spirit ,they were not good trees and but bad trees unconverted ,, but they did know the way of God and had herd the teachings they had some light ,therefor the judgment will be worse ,better had they not known the way of God ..

John 15 ,,is Jesus actually referencing an old prophecy about him declaring to Israel that he was vine ,he wa also declaring to be God ,and Israel being the chosen by God ,being in a special relation ship with God ,hence vine and branches,,,,

. I will dig those old prophecy out of the Old Testament later if any one likes.
But that is the context and truely in that context of the deciples who were Jews were were the branches already due to that oridginal bond with God, those who remained in the vine bore fruit ,and those who did not decide to follow God through Christ did not abide in the vine and were utterly destroyed from among the people ,and cast in to hell....

1cor 3 is actually speaking about false teachers who were defiling the body of Christ the temple ,and God would destroy them ..

2 Peter could easily be just say to. Saint to watch out or you can fall into false teaching ,,,it has happens that a true Saint is led away but false teacher ,but because they have the anointing as John puts it they realise and satan does not touch them ,,for they know all things as John puts it ,and they hear God word ,proving they are of God ,,but that does not mean that will not fall from a stead fast place and wast much time being led away with the error of The wikked,,,like the prosperity gospel ...

Timothy is in line with this last interpratation, he mentions them as profeses of the faith they may or may not be saints ,and the verse does not say that lost there salvation , either way ......

Blessings to ya all ,,,il go get my helmit now ...

Well I obviously would say no ,because as John would write ,he who is born of God keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him ,and he who is born of God does not sin for his seed remaith in him so he cannot sin because he has been born of God ...

Demas decided not to minister with Paul ,as you would also rember the apostal split with some other ministers ,due to not wanting to have mark ,I think it was , minister along side him ,Paul saw it as atachment to this would,which is a problem many true Christians have ,mabey even you brother ,,,,,,,so what I'm saying is that verse is not saying that demas was harden to the point of losing his salvation

And Hebrews is saying among the congregation of profeses of faith where weat and tares grow up together, there will be those with a evil heart of unbelief who will depart from the live God ,as John said ,they went out from us because they were not of us ,but that we should exhort and witness and challange each other so that some of those who have no fruit will repent and believe the gospel ,,,it's not saying that you are me have and evil heart of unbelief of that we can get an evil heart ,because John would say he who is born of God does not sin for his seed rematch in him and he CANNOT sin for he has been BORN OF GOD.........just emphasising ....

What that doctrine leads to is false converts in contrast to the pesaverence of the Saint ,which demands fruit ,,,,
that a carnal Christian can sin and sin ,but as long as he keeps professing Jesus as lord then he has not rejected christ if he goes to church and goes through the motions then we say well he hasnt harden is heart ,so he wil be ok,,.

Churches that teach that are full of carnal Christian ,so both contrasting doctrines can lead to error....

No I was refuring to Julius

Hey Gary! Thanks for your beautiful testimony.

Your very welcome sir

Brothagary, hope you are having a good day. Blessings. the Bible says no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. All I gave was Scripture and you began trying to explain the Word of God away? What Scripture was it you didn't believe?

James 5:19-20 KJV
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; [20] Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James is talking to the BRETHREN. He says if a brother errs from the truth( how can one err from something they didn't have in the first place?) And one Converts HIM( brother who erred) let him know that he which converteth the sinner shall save a soul(not body) from death.

Here is more Scripture

Hebrews 10:23, 26-27, 29, 31, 38-39 KJV
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [38] Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [39] But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 Timothy 2:12 KJV
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him : if we deny him , he also will deny us:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Romans 11:22 KJV
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Matthew 24:12-13, 46-51 KJV
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him , and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hebrews 3:1, 6, 8, 12, 14 KJV
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; [6] But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. [8] Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: [12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Have a great day.

Quote:  "Those are all Santification versus"

Yeh, really! Are you sure? You mean we don't have to take seriously any warnings here about unbelief and not remaining faithul?
Thanks, I can now relax in my unfaithfulness and sin and not have to worry about living for myself as it's only sanctification. Oh yeh I may not get much of an inheritance but hey! I'm saved! Aren't I???

I just read those passages again and I know I should trust you, but....emm, I'm not sure as they do really seem to be talking about salvation and my eternal destiny. Oh, but if you are so sure then I must be ok! So you're confident about telling me this are you? I would not want you to be judged for teaching something so dangerously wrong.

Hi guys,

Some verses for consideration:

(i) "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5) - Is this promise of God conditional? If so, where in the Bible can the conditions attached to this verse be found?

(ii) "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Timothy 2:13) - The sanctification promises of God have to be received by faith. Yet doesn't this verse suggest that God's faithfulness to us trumps our lack of trust in Him?

As Tuc once wrote to me, "Yes! We have a choice to become a willing participant in what God has already accomplished. (Yet) our unbelief does not and can not change the facts of what God has already done. Our unbelief will keep us from truly experiencing these facts."

Marcmc,

If I may ask you again for your top 5 ( non biographical ) recommended reading list it would help.

How many times have we found ourselves desperately praying that the Lord protect us from ourselves.The Reality is a christian can fall deeply into sin. That was why when a baptist friend asked me if I am sure of my salvation, I told him that it was a very difficult question, who knows if I will not sin bigtime in the future. The Lord sure is faithful but who can say that I will be faithful too till the end.

So, I have lived a legalistic life for years. It was hard, arid, despondent life until I came into a deep realization of the grace that is in the gospel, that His grace is sufficient for my weaknesses and that by His grace I will indeed persevere in faith and to the path of righteousness till the end.

He is my great shepherd, the author and finisher of my faith.

Yuehan wrote: ""Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5) Is this promise of God conditional? If so, where in the Bible can the conditions attached to this verse be found?"
_____________

The author of this verse is quoting Deut. 31:6.

But guess what Deut 31:17 says, just a little down the same page:

"Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them,"

So indeed, there are conditions, OR never does not necessarily mean never.

Well said Julius, damnable heresies have truly crept into the church. Especially where men rely on footnotes in today's modern versions of the bible and not on the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ promised.

All of the scriptures that have been provided throughout this thread that oppose the OSAS belief are insurmountable.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. If we are chosen it is only because we are willing and obedient, enduring to the end.

2 Peter 1:1-10 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have OBTAINED like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (True Salvation): (2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (3) According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath CALLED us to glory and virtue (Called does not necessarily mean chosen): (4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious PROMISES (promises are conditional): that by these YE MIGHT (it does not say YE WILL because the promises are conditional) be partakers of the divine nature, having ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust (having escaped clearly means what the writer says, that we have obtained FAITH in God=Salvation). (5) And beside this, GIVING all diligence, ADD to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; (6) And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; (7) And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.(Giving diligence and adding the fruit of the Holy Spirit implies growth, endurance, and proof of salvation) (8) For IF (that BIG conditional word again) these things be IN you, and ABOUND, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ ( Now no longer only called but chosen).(9) BUT HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND, and CANNOT SEE afar off, and hath FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS (hence, by forgetting, he is adding NEW sins).(10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE (a condition) to make your calling and election sure: for IF YE DO (a conditional admonishment, some hear only and are not DOERS)) these things, ye shall never fall:

Here is the real danger in supporting false doctrine. It is one thing when one believes in a controversial topic such as this and to do so privately but a whole other thing when you teach others these things in clear opposition of scripture.

True salvation is a foundational teaching and doctrine of Christ. As I have pondered and prayed over this thread and topic and have also considered this since 1988 it is a doctrine I cannot nor will not support. I have prayerfully once again considered the arguments in support of OSAS and have come to the conclusion it is false, dangerous, and damnable to one's eternal final destination.

While I would not judge those who so diligently support this doctrine are not using it to support any ongoing sin in their own life. You might be the exception to the rule, because OSAS has one foundational message to the majority of who believe it and that is that it supports and convinces people that they can continue in sin and that there is nothing they could do or not do to lose their salvation.

I appreciate and am thankful for those who are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. I have learned much through this thread and thank Greg for allowing it to continue.

Double post.......

Quote; "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." (2 Timothy 2:13) - The sanctification promises of God have to be received by faith. Yet doesn't this verse suggest that God's faithfulness to us trumps our lack of trust in Him?

No it does not! This is often mis-quoted ot mis-applied. Let's look at what it actually says.

"If we endure, we will reign with Him,
If we deny Him, He will deny us."

"If we are faithless, He remians faithful, for He cannot deny Himself".
(2 Tim. 12-13).

So if we deny Him, He WILL deny us. This lines up with what Jesus said in the gospels. "Whover denies me before men, I will deny before my Father".

"If we are faithless, He remians faithful". But faithful to who? It says He cannot deny HIMSELF! It does NOT say He cannot deny US. It actually says He WILL deny us, if we deny Him. So Jesus is faithful to Himself snd the salvation He had won. That never changes. He never changes in this regard to the salvation offered, if we would avail ourselves of it. He is NOT faithful to provide salvation to any who would deny Him and depart from the grace He offers to all who would come. 

So there is great hope and encouragement, even to those who have wandered away in unbelief and sin. If they would repent and return to the shepherd of their souls, He remains faithful to His promise and will receive the lost sheep bsck again. BUT He does not offer a ticket to heaven and acceptance to those who neglect so great a salvation. 

Marcmc, I cannot fathom why you cannot just accept the scriptures as a discuusion on this subject, but want to satisfy your sectarianism by what 'camp' someone is in. Maybe they aren't in any camp!

At the very least have some integrity and explain what and who you are influenced by. What books do you read and what church theology do younascribe to if this is SO important to you?

If were not saved the first time, does Christ have to return to the cross again?

Brother Marc,
Please correct me if I am misunderstanding your last point...
Are you saying that if someone goes to hell its Gods fault?

Marc wrote:

Quote:

"Salvation is 100% the work of God. Any contribution you can make past, present or future is a point of boasting and grieves the Holy Spirit."

"Justification is done for you, Sanctification is done through you and Glorification will be done too you. All is done by the will and power of God alone."

This is made clear by; Ephesians 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

And: 1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I was nought and was not, but by His Mighty Power Christ was made, "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption".

I don't believe that God is in the business of saving a person and birthing the Spirit of His Son in one who believes by His Mighty Power, then letting that person slip out of salvation and condemning him to hell, with no way of return. That is not what God put His Son on the Cross for. What God does will not return void.

Marc, you are so right, """Salvation is 100% the work of God. Any contribution you can make past, present or future is a point of boasting and grieves the Holy Spirit."""

It is only God' fault only by His for-knowledge that some go to Hell, not His choice, "all to be saved", it is man' choice that he belongs there.

God will not re-nig on His giving to the Son those that are His and none be chosen to jump out of The Birthing, which would make God an abortionist. Not possible.

Thanks Marc for your conviction and truth.

In Christ by the birthing of Christ in me:

Phillip

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Quote: "We cannot use the scriptures alone in this discussion"

Well that's quite revealing as to where you are coming from!
So is what you really mean to say 'we cannot understand OSAS without your particular interpretation on Eph 1??

ALL scripture is inspired of God for teaching and doctrine.

What is it in partucular that you want us to see in Ephesians 1 that confirms your view?

That might be a meaningful start, rsther than just random statements and dismissals.

You have not told us what influences you, teachers, books, church, etc.

So as you don't want to tell us, let me guess.
You believe God predestined some to be saved and some (most) to go to hell before the foundation of the world and those who are chosen can never be lost no matter what they do!

We have already discussed this issue of election and how it all applies to the corporate body of those 'In Christ' and not individually to bring some to Christ. Ephesians 1 is all about the'riches of Christ' and not about OSAS seperately from Christ.

Predestinated to heaven or hell, "NOT"; but to be predestinated to be in Christ who was with the Father before the foundation of the world.

Lets not put God in our little box and try to figure Him out to our understanding.

In Christ: Phillip

The Tightrope Walker!! - Calvinism vs. Arminianism by Keith Daniel

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19110&commentView=itemComments

The best message on Calvinism vs. Arminianism
He does an excellant job with Romans 9 also

Brother Marc,
Can you explain then if God is the sole proprietor of salvation and we play no active part then how does a person go to hell, if not by God not saving them in an act of sovereign grace?

Aww gee whiz. This is just another old Calvinism debate. Lord spare us.

Yes but you took an extremely convoluted route to say that yes, God sovereignly elects some persons to go to hell, because those he does not elect for heaven shall surely go there.

The idea is repellant beyond imagining.

Are you saying that God did not know that man would sin before He created him? If He knew, that means He created the system.

That is perfectly fine- He is God and can do what He wants. But your solution- election of some and not others- is what is repellant.

Brother Marc,
I must say I'm more than a little surprised you quoted on of the foremost atheist of our times ( Christopher Hitchens) in your presentation, especially considering his pronounced hatred of all things Biblical... a modern day Voltare if you will.

So again correct me if I'm wrong,... God Himself withholds the grace necessary for salvation from some of not most people?

Quote:
"The more people you share the gospel with the more elect you find."

That sounds like corporate election, but I do not believe that is your position.

Brother Marc,
I apologize and ask your forgiveness for mischaracterizing your reference to Mr. Hitchens.

Might you respond giving clarification to the question?
(Just trying to understand your position in simple terms)

Lord teach us, forget about Calvin. Let us stay in the Word until we all come to the same mind which was and is in Christ Jesus, whom this is all about.

Ro 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip

Going back to the point of contention about OSAS:

- does OSAS promote sin or disregard holiness
- does it disregard repentance and perseverance in faith and righteousness to the end.
- does OSAS promote false conversion.

what is so offending about the 'sonship' concept of OSAS?

If God had declared that He will not lose any of His, should it offend any christian or should it encourage them to persevere knowing that all their sacrifices will not be in vain.

Quote:

""""- does OSAS promote sin or disregard holiness
- does it disregard repentance and perseverance in faith and righteousness to the end.
- does OSAS promote false conversion.""""

I hate (OSAS) but since you used it ok. It confirms holiness which only God has made The birthing of Jesus Christ in us our righteousness. It hates sin because sin still has power over our flesh, but the Christ holiness and righteousness in us makes our new creation life in christ a life of repentance and perseverance evidenced by our believing through faith that God is in control and will finish the good work He has begun in us. We don't need (OASA) for false conversion, we have a liar from the beginning to lead us into false conversions and false religions which take away from Christ and His finished work on the Cross of which I cannot improve upon and only Glory in His Work in me.

(OSAS) what a lie of the Devil to divide the body of Christ and keep us from the Truth, I am, I was and will never be anything without the Christ that is birthed in me by the Father. Pauls Mystery.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Being perfect is the only way any of us can make it into Heaven. Only Christ is that perfection which God has made Him to us that perfection, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. I will never be perfect in this flesh, but He is in my soul by The Spirit of Christ in me and the Holy Spirit has sealed that perfection in me. How can I reach any higher than being a son of God by the Seed of His Son birthed in me, My only hope of Glory, by His work that worketh in me mightily.

I can never loose what God has done in me, It is confirmed in my spirit By His Spirit, I don't ever want to loose it either, knowing it cannot be taken away from me, not even by myself, oh what assurance.

Ephesians 3:17-21 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

By God birthing His Son in me and keeping me In Christ:

Phillip

OSAS is an acronym, the meaning of which serves as a conspectus of theological beliefs related to the eternal security of the believers.

What are those beliefs and undertones, where exactly are the points of contentions that makes it dangerous, erroneous, heretic, or libelous.

TMK - thanks for the heads-up on the Deuteronomy verse. There's nothing quite like a Bible verse to encourage us to reflect on our understanding.

Heydave - I appreciate your taking time out to reply. However, I do not agree with your interpretation of 2 Tim 2:13, as I had elaborated in another thread: https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=55219&forum=34

I would like to add something on the faithfulness of God to clarify how I understand it from scripture and practice.

God IS faithful and will not casually give up on any man. He will consistently bring truth and conviction to all men, so men are without excuse. Also for those who have rejected or departed from the faith in one degree or another, He will continue to bring coviction, discipline and chastening as necessary to bring the lost one back to repentance and faith, 'not wanting any to perish, but to have eternal life'. This is in complete contrast to those who believe God consigns multitudes to damnation with no possibility of hope. That is a hideous doctrine.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 5 that Pauls deals with the immoral man and say 'hand him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit might be saved' shows us this very principle, that to bring someone back to repentance, it may taken some strong discipline like this, but it is worth it if it results in salvation. Strangely this is a scripture used to demonstrate OSAS by some. Mis-quoted and interpreted they say it like this 'hand him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, BUT (inserted in place of 'THAT') his spirit will be saved'. A subtle mis-quote, but a huge error. It says the reason for handing him over to Satan is (so) that his spirit might be saved. And we know that this will happen when the discipline causes him to repent unto eternal life.

So we see God absolutely IS faithful, even to the point that He will bring the strongest discipline to bring about repentance. But if we still refuse to repent, he will not force us to have something we don't want. I have experinced these things in my life as well as others I know. I think it is possible that those who continually harden their heart, eventually willl be handed over to a reprobate mind and deception. I have seen this too. At what point that happpens I cannot say, but it does happen.

I think some of you have forgotten the parable of banquet, Luke 14.15-24.

There was definitely an "expectation" on the part of the Master that All who were invited WOULD attend but instead the Master filled the seats with those (in human terms), we would never consider 'worthy' to sit in our seats. And yet the seats were filled with the 'poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind."

Finally, the Master stated in verse 24, "For I tell you, NONE of those who were invited shall taste my banquet."

I think we shall all be surprised to find who the Lord says, "Enter in my good and faithful servant."

Amen!
Well said sister Lisa and thank you for posting this:)

This statement once caught my attention, but perhaps it applies only to some, 'The more a christian walks in faith the more he realizes how depraved he is'.

Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias

Acts 28:26-27 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Who are "this people"?

Acts 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

What is Gods promise at this time for the Gentile after the Jews had left, reasoning and not understanding?

Acts 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you , that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles , and that they will hear it .

Specifically applied to the Gentiles.

Not forsaking any who believe even on the name of Jesus Christ.

Who see's to those that hear and understand salvation by Jesus Christ alone?

Acts 28:30-31 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Ephesians 3:16-18 That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

"what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;"
of God and our salvation by, through, for and in Jesus Christ who is born again in us, a new creation, by His Spirit that is in those God has given Him.

In Christ: Phillip

by marcmc
The Jews had an open invitation to the kingdom. And in covenant said all the Lord has commanded we will do. They continually pursued their own ends and failed to enter. The Master then sends out to the highways and biways. That's the Gentiles (you and me).

When you start splitting hairs like this, you miss God.

@ Julius21

I guess, the words of apostle Paul for this is translated as 'wretched'.

The word depravity in my understanding not only denotes external behavior or actions but also the moral state of our hearts or being.

Brother Marc...perhaps this is what this sister was referring too...

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I remember a few years back when the church all agreed that China would invade America someday. Well, someday has come and gone and they've invaded us without one soldier and shell.

by marcmc
The Jews had an open invitation to the kingdom. And in covenant said all the Lord has commanded we will do. They continually pursued their own ends and failed to enter. The Master then sends out to the highways and biways. That's the Gentiles (you and me).

by Lysa
Brother,
When you start splitting hairs like this, you miss God.

And what I'm saying is, keep on open mind on how God operates because it's rarely what we fight and die for in arguments and theology (how we see it and believe it).

" But this might offend the "trying to become" camp because what would they do if there is nothing to do, but abide."

I do not believe this statement has come from the CHRIST who abides in us. His heart is to perfect all believers into ONE body. Divisions and camps grieve Him. Christ in me was grieved by the statement.

Was this statement Christ in you leading you to add to the faith of those you perceive to be in "the trying to become camp"? It sounds more like a soulish categorization than the love of the Spirit.

There are many sincere believers who are still simple in their understanding. They may not "see" with your understanding that they are "trying to become" - they simply see it as obeying out of love. They may not even know enough to say "CHRIST in me" moved me to do this; but I believe their simple obedience is more pleasing to God than is portrayed by such a statement that creates a "camp" for you to criticize.