Sad but True

Jesus reply to the Disciples when they asked Him of the clear evident sign the Believers will see of His Coming was this.
Many will come and deceive many, many false anointed will come in the name of Christ and declaring that Jesus is the Messiah yet they are deceivers and will deceive many.

With all of the hype this year and many bold statements made by Shepherds in Authority that the Rapture is coming in 2015 and the Tribulation is about to Come and we will all be raptured out of here.

How many believers are really discerning what is being said and actually recording these bold statements, how many will see these shepherds as false teachers once their bold prophecies are proven to be a lie, how many will continue to buy their books and watch their videos.

How many will actually believe the words of Jesus Himself.

Jesus told us exactly when He will Come, Jesus told us the order of events that will be clearly seen before He Comes, but of that Day and Hour of His Coming after the Signs are seen in the Sun and Moon and Stars which Jesus said would be seen after the Tribulation period has ended

No man knows, But Jesus commanded us to learn the parable so that we will know when to look up, so that we will know when He is at the Door, we will know when our Redemption draws near, Jesus told us when He will Come we just don't know the 24 hour period.

Who will you Trust in today, the Words of Jesus Himself or the false teaching of men.

Jesus and Paul clearly stated to stay clear of the Doctrines of man.

Discern what is Truth and what is a Lie Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

When did Jesus say that He was Coming?

Quote: """Jesus told us exactly when He will Come, Jesus told us the order of events that will be clearly seen before He Comes, but of that Day and Hour of His Coming after the Signs are seen in the Sun and Moon and Stars which Jesus said would be seen after the Tribulation period has ended."""

Where?

In Christ: Phillip

The question of Jesus' second return has fired the imagination of many throughout time. Some have made a reasonable argument based upon Scripture detailing what the endtimes will look like thus marking Jesus' return.

A few years ago Edgar Whisenant wrote a book and made a video on 88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988. I saw the video and I promise - he was very convincing. As we all know 1988 came and went with no sign of Jesus return.

We all get weary of sin run unchecked, so-called Believers embracing perversion and promoting it and if you do not agree you are marginalized/hated. Because this is the case we cry in our spirits, "how long, O Lord?" Then we look around at our loved ones who are outside the fold and we say, "Wait a little bit longer, please Jesus...there are so many still wandering out in sin..." Yet, the reality is that people are not wandering they are walking away from God. Sad. And we grieve. Surely, this must be the endtimes....All signs of the endtimes, for sure.

Personally, I think one needs to keep in mind that things will be horrible and worst right up to the coming of Jesus' return...there are those who believe that some kind of utopia can be achieved through diplomacy that will usher in Jesus' return.

My understanding.

Sandra

I have just finished watching a brilliant teaching DVD that was recommended by another believer.

The DVD is titled Left Behind or Led Astray

It is a brilliant teaching aid and I believe every Church and Believer should watch this very Truthful, Factual and revealing DVD and be aware of how Doctrines can be created so far from Gods Word.

Watch this DVD and then choose what to believe regarding the Coming of Christ.

It is so important to stand upon the Doctrine of Scripture not on mens dividing teaching.

So much Deception out there today.

When the Disciples asked Jesus about his coming in Matthew 24 Jesus first reply was Many will come and deceive many

How true, many are out there speaking deception regarding the Coming of Christ.

Look at how many have prophesied false lies that the Rapture is taking place this month of Sept 2015, not one verse to support themselves.

How many will be led astray by these lies?

Many do not study to see if what they are being taught is true and aligns with the Word of God.

a link is below

http://www.goodfight.org/

I do hope you purchase and are challenged

Budgie-

Philip asked you a simple question about where Jesus explains exactly when he is returning.

Will you please answer this question.

Don't refer us to other things we have to buy- just tell us plainly. No mystery, no beating around the bush.

Please.

Thanks TMK for your lovely response in such brotherly love.

Yes I will respond to Philips question with the words of Christ.
In Matthew 24 Jesus own Disciples asked Jesus for the Sign of His Coming and Jesus responded to their question with such Truth in Matthew 24 and 25.

Jesus said this.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Disciples asked for the sign and Jesus gave them the sign.

Jesus said when He is Coming and He himself said it will be after the signs are seen in the sky after the Tribulation has ended.

Jesus even goes on to say that of that day of His coming which He has already told us will be after the Tribulation know man knows the day (24 hour Period) or Hour (60 minute Period).

We know that His Coming is after the Tribulation has ended but we do not know the day or hour.

Jesus then tells us to learn a Parable of the Figtree.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So ((likewise)) ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus said that when we see ALL THESE THINGS then we know that His Coming is Near, even at the Doors.

We have as a Generation not seen ALL these things as He has described yet, not at all.

Jesus even told the Disciples when the Great Tribulation begins. It is when the Abomination takes place in the middle of the week.

Jesus even told us of all the events that will be seen before the Tribulation ends from verses 6 to 28

In verse 25 Jesus even says Behold I have told you so beforehand.

Jesus takes the time to tell us what will happen before the day of His coming

Jesus has prophesied it and it will take place exactly as He Prophesied.

There is not one verse where Jesus Prophesies that He is Coming before or even in the middle of that Great Tribulation, no not one.

Jesus told us exactly when He will Come and it is somewhere in the days after the Tribulation has ended.

In Mark we know that Jesus says that there exists a short period of time from when the Tribulation has ended until the signs are seen in the sky.
Jesus says (those days after that Tribulation)

After means after, days mean days.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Many ignore what Jesus has to say in regards to when He is Coming as if they know better and even say that Jesus can come at any moment.

Jesus told us clearly when He is Coming but of that Literal Day or that Literal Hour that He comes after the Tribulation no man knows.

BUT Jesus said that when we see all those things then He is at the door and then is the Time our Redemption draws near.

Again we have not seen all these things yet.

Paul taught the exact same Truth as Jesus.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Oh I wish many today would not listen to another spirit or another word or another letter.

Many theories with not one scriptural support.

Look at what Paul has to say in regards to deception

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Sadly many ignore the deception that Paul warned us about regarding the Coming of Christ.

Paul said that the Day of Christs Coming and our being gathered to Him will not take place until the Apostasy and the Son of Perdition is revealed, Paul even states that Jesus will destroy this Son of Perdition when He comes to gather us to himself.

Paul told us when Jesus is Coming but again does not tell us the Literal 24 hour day or 60 minute time.

Jesus and Paul tells us exactly when Jesus is coming.
God Himself even tells us when Jesus is Coming in Revelation 20 and even tells us when the First Resurrection takes place and all believers know that the Resurrection precedes the Rapture as Paul so clearly describes in 1 Thess 4: 16-18

I hope this helps Philip

All I have given is pure scripture.

To TMK
When I was suggesting for many to purchase the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray it was not just for the sake of buying or beating about the bush, but for the very reason that it is a very Truthful, Factual and informative teaching aid to enable many who have never studied or can study the truth in regards to a doctrine that was made by man with not one scriptural verse to support it.
Every Believer deserves to see the Truth so that they can make a decision for themselves.
As Paul said do not be troubled by a spirit or letter or word that does not align with scripture.
From the bottom of my heart my intentions are not for the gains of myself but that others may know the Truth and be set free from such error and stand on what the word of God clearly states.
Many today do not agree with and do not align themselves with the authority of God Word, instead twisting it to support their own doctrine.

\tMat 24:44 This is when He will come back

Matthew 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

That is exactly the problem. On one hand Jesus SEEMS to say when He will return. But he ALSO says he will come at an hour you do not expect.

If he was talking about his second coming in the Olivet Discourse, we would be able to "see the signs" and know the hour he is coming back. But he also says when he comes it will be unexpected.

Which is why I don't think he was talking about his 2nd coming in the Olivet Discourse but rather his coming on the clouds in judgment when Jeruslem, the temple and the Jewish system was destroyed.

Budgie,

Thank you for the link to the film. I was not aware of it and it looks interesting. I will see if I can get a copy in the uk. The list of teachers involved in this film looks very good and credible.

I believe this is a very important issue in these days. I recently read the book by Jacob Prasch "Harpazo" which also deals with this subject. Quite heavy in depth book, but makes some very good points. You might want to check that out.

Thanks HeyDave

Thanks for your response, the price of the DVD is very reasonable and it has over 4 hours of information.
It is funny that you mention Jacob Prasch as I am currently watching some of his videos.

You order it direct from his website and cost of mail is excellent

I live in Australia and received it quickly and cheaply

I have also just ordered a CD from them re pre, mid and post trib looking at all scriptures

Shalom to you Brother

Thanks for your response TMK

I would agree with you totally if Jesus said the following words

But of that day and hour of my coming before the tribulation no man knows.

But Jesus did not say those words, quite the opposite.

In Matthew 24 verse 36 Jesus very clearly stated But of That Day.

In the Greek That word is a Demonstrative Pronoun and virtually means (that very same, self same day)
This implys that Jesus is talking about the Day of His Coming which He spoke about in verses 29-31

Jesus is not making reference to any other day, He is very clearly talking about the Day of His Coming which takes place sometime after the signs are seen in the Sky and that is sometime after the Tribulation has completely ended which we know is only 3 and a half years long.

We know that Jesus is talking about that Coming as He states this in verse 37 making reference to That Day Of His Coming, which is the very question the Disciples asked.

Jesus even instructs us to learn a parable regarding trees and that when summer is near the trees start to bud, Do we know the exact day summer starts NO but the signs are truly seen with the eye. Jesus did not say that Summer starts as soon as the buds start, Jesus said that Summer is near when you see the signs.

LIKEWISE Jesus said when we see all these signs we know that He is at the Door and we know our Redemption is near and we Know to Look Up. Jesus did not say that that was the Day, He said it is near and at the Door.

Do we still know the Day or Hour NO
But we do know that once (all) His Prophesied events are fully seen then we really need to watch as it can then happen at any day

Jesus even tells us when to look up and when He is at the Door.

All of Matthew 25 is talking about THAT very same Day of His Coming which He so clearly stated would happen after the Tribulation has completely ended.

No where in Scripture does Jesus state that He is Coming before the Tribulation.

But it clearly states in many passages in Old and New Testament that He is Coming after the Tribulation.

God Himself tells us when the First Resurrection takes place which is after the Tribulation has ended.

Jesus destroys the Antichrist at His Coming.

Budgie;

Thank you for an answer to my question.

This is Mark; Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is Paul; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why is there such a stark difference in the two? One unto the elect, Israel and one unto the Body of Christ He being the Head of His Church>

One after the tribulation unto judgement and one unto the gathering of His body the Church meeting Our Lord and Head of His congregation, "in the air" catching us away, raptured, not judgement on this earth, Jesus then standing on this earth and sitting on the Throne of David, after the Tribulation and the Body of Christ being with Him at His physical presence on this earth, different from These final words which speak of our comfort, one all together in Him by these words, "caught up together with Him in the air."

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God, My Savior, My Brother and my Love:\\

Phillip

Can you please give me a clear verse where Jesus states clearly that He is Coming before the Tribulation, I have looked and I cannot find any, I can only find where He clearly states that He is Coming after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs are seen in the Sky. This is also repeated in Revelations and Daniel.

Can you also please give me a verse in the New Testament that clearly states that there is two comings, one before the Trib and one after the Trib, I can only find one and that as after the Trib.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that there is two Resurrections of the Just as I can only find the One Resurrection of the just.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that the wheat will not stay with the tares until the end of the Age when Jesus comes and Resurrects the Just.

Can you also give me one verse that clearly states that the Rapture takes place before the Resurrection.

Can you also give me one verse that states that the Resurrection takes place before all of the prophecies regarding the antichrist are fulfilled, the prophecies must be fulfilled exactly as stated for him to be revealed.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus stated that he would raise us before the last day as I can only find where He states that it is the Last Day.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus states that he will be coming twice and with Trumpets at all occasions as I can only find that it is one and not only one but it is the Last Trumpet, this also is confirmed in Revelations.

I am not sure why you used this ending

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God

Is this not from Matthew 24 where Jesus clearly states that He is Coming after the Signs are seen in the Heavens, Shout, voice of Arch Angel and Trumpet of God.

Paul said that there is an order to the RESURRECTION singular, Christ first and afterwards at His Coming all in Christ.

That sounds like one Resurrection and if they are all in that Resurrection then there are not any Just left for another Resurrection, that is why it is another 1000 years before the second and Last Resurrection.

Please give me some clear verses from the word of God alone in your response, no theories.

Scripture is for doctrine not the words of man.

Budgie:

I am getting old 76 and It is challenging for me to answer individual questions asking for specific scriptures to prove the bibles stance on Pre-Trib. There is a very comprehensive study of the end times that Dr. Max D. Younce has published and is online. If you dare to study I would venture to say all the questions you ask of me would be completely and comprehensively answered.

http://heritagebbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/iknowwhoholdstomorrow_w_charts.pdf

Especially pages 91 forward.

Thank you for your time and answers to my questions.

The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you Christinyou for your reply and honesty, while I appreciate your age and have great respect towards you I am saddened that you cannot respond with one clear verse for the doctrine that you hold.
I was fortunate enough as to have never been brought up Pre, Mid or Post, I was fortunate enough to have not been given a Schofield bible.
I was astounded at the many differing doctrines of men regarding the return of Christ and began to search the scriptures to find out what Jesus and many others had to say, I find no errors in scripture and perfect harmony in scripture regarding the Coming of Christ.

You stated to me that you dare me to read Dr, Younce, I have read many and I say many various authors regarding the Coming of Christ on all sides, I have watched many videos by Chuck Missler etc. One thing that concerned me was the twisting of scripture and that there is not one single verse in all scripture that states that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus Himself stated clearly that His Coming would be after the Tribulation has ended and Jesus stated that this same day of His Coming after the Tribulation has ended no man knows the 24 hr day or what hour of that 24 hour day. Jesus said when you see ALL the signs then look up as that is when He will be at the Door.

You stated
The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

GIVE me one verse that states that, it is not found in scripture, you will not find one verse to support that false teaching.

Jesus Himself stated that the wheat and tares would remain together until the end of the Age when He will send His angels to reap and the Resurrection takes place.

Give me one verse where Jesus states the Resurrection 7 years before the End of the Age, you wont find one.

God himself states when the First Resurrection takes place, but man teach a Doctrine that contradicts the words of God.

Paul declared that there is an order to the RESURRECTION, first Jesus then all in Christ at His Coming.

Resurrection is Resurrection and Paul tells us the Order and so does God, I will align myself with what scripture states not the lies of man.

Paul even told us what must happen before Christ Comes and gathers us to Himself, but some men say total contradiction to the word of God and say that Jesus will come before hand.

What is Truth, the words of Paul, Jesus, or God Himself or the theories of man that tickles the ear.

God said to not add and to not take way from what is written in Revelations, if God states when the FIRST Resurrection takes place then it is True.

The PreTrib view is not based on any scripture but on the words of men.

Give me one clear scriptural verse where the Word of God states that Jesus Comes before the Tribulation and that the Resurrection takes place before the Tribulation.

One clear scriptural verse to base your theory on.

Paul made it very clear in 2 Thessalonian 2 that it was deception to believe in the Coming of Christ prior to the Apostasy and prior to the revealing of the Son of Perdition.
Paul made it very clear to not believe any letter, word or spirit but to believe the word of God.
If the above is true then anyone that preaches against the very words of Paul is actually preaching deception.
I think that it is very wise to heed the words of Paul and not listen to anything that contradicts the word of God.
Do not be deceived for Christ will not come and will not gather us to Himself until the Apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition takes place.
Paul also stated that Jesus will destroy that same son of perdition at that very same Coming.
Nowhere in Scripture does Paul say that Jesus is Coming another two times.
Paul only taught of two Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the unjust and Paul himself desired to be in the Resurrection of the Just.
The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last.

Quote: """The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last."""

If the Rapture is last; who will be left in the 1000 reign of Christ with those that are raptured. If those that are raptured have their glorified bodies, they will not have any children, for there is neither male or female in the Kingdom.

If all the lost are cast into the lake of fire. Who will be left to reign over. All those that come out of the tribulation must live until the thousand years is up and those that join Satan and rebel against Christ and war against Him must come from the ones that did not take the mark of the beast and those that did and lied and are saved if not already dead, of whom Christ and the Body of Christ and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will rule and reign trying to save many who will be born in the thousand year reign. If the rapture comes at the end of the tribulation, what the scripture teaches is not possible. Only those that take part in the first resurrection (rapture), the Bride of Christ, the born again Christ in them, sons' of the Father will rule and reign in the millennium those that have taken part in the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage supper of the Lamb, those that; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There can be no Post tribulation rapture or partial rapture.

1. All raptured Christians receive their glorified bodies (Romans 8:22,23; and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
2. There are no children born to glorified bodies. (Matthew 22:23-30
3. All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41)

Quote by Dr. Younce;

""If the Rapture is post Tribulation, several problems arise with impossible solutions. Where do the mortal bodies come from of those that are born during the Millennium and rebel at the conclusion of the Millennium? (Revelation 20:7-10). There would be no lost people alive to have children, so they cannot come from them. All of the saved have their glorified bodies. No children can be born to them as a result of a Post Tribulation Rapture Remember; at the end of Christ’s 1,000 Year Reign there are unbelievers who will give their allegiance to Satan in an attempt to defeat Christ. (Revelation 20:7-10). How would they get their human bodies? Placing the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and the start of the Millennium makes an impossible situation. At the Rapture all Christians have their glorified bodies, which do not produce human beings. All the lost are cast into Hell at the end of the Tribulation Period. Therefore, the philosophy of a Post-Tribulation Rapture is impossible.

The Post-Tribulation Rapture philosophy also leads to other false doctrines. Colossians 2:8 is God’s warning concerning false teachers.""

In Christ: Waiting for; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, (Michael) and with the trump of God: (not the last trump) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is just one proof of the pre-trib rapture, there are many others. This is gathered logical truth finding of Scripture against Scripture to paint the whole picture.

Phillip

Dear Phillip,

You wrote: "All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41)".

That is not actually right. Read it again, It is after the 1000 years that the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire. See Rev 20 below.

Rev 20:11
"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them."

Rev 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

Rev 20:13
"The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

Rev 20:14
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Rev 20:15
"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

I think at the end of the tribulation period when Christ returns that there will be many un-regenerate nations and people who will populate the earth. If it was only believers that makes no sense. Do you really think any (few) who get saved during the tribulation will get a second class salvation and not be part of the church?
the great multitude that 'come out of the tribulation' is the church, not some amazing mass conversion during this period. That will not happen. Folk will not easily choose the Lord at that time. The pressure to conform will be much greater than anything ever experienced on earth before.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

"Both"

This is at the end of the tribulation;

Revelation 20:1-5 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then at the end of the 1000 years the great white throne judgement for the rest of the dead.

In Christ: Phillip

Both= Beast and False prophet.:)

Both,not all!

Quote: """Both= Beast and False prophet.:)

Both,not all!"""

Ok, any left were slain with the sword of His mouth, The Word of God, so where do they go?

Does this work? All dead that worshiped the beast at the end of the Tribulation?

In Christ: Phillip

No. does not work!

Rev. 19:19
"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Rev. 19:21
"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

The context here is those who are gathered against the Lord and His army in battle. Not every person on the face of the earth will be in those armies.

There will be 'nations' left after the Lord's second coming. Otherwise who will He rule with a rod of iron? If there only believers in the millennium, why does He need to rule with a rod of iron?

Rev.19:15
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Well that's how it seems to me! We will find out one day soon.

It is not me that states that the rapture is last it is the words of Paul himself in 1 Thess 4. Sadly today there is a whole doctrine and focus on the rapture. There is not a doctrine on the rapture spoken by anyone in scripture, in fact Paul only used the word ONCE in relation to our Resurrection and Paul clearly stated that it would take place after the Resurrection. The Doctrine that Paul did write was on the Parousia (coming) of Christ and at that coming the Resurrection. Paul spoke of the Resurrection and the Coming of Jesus many times. Paul stated very clearly that the Resurrection takes place at the coming of Christ.
Paul only taught two Resurrections as did Jesus and as did God. Jesus made it very clear that the Resurrection takes place at the end of the Age, Jesus made it clear that he will raise us at the Last day, Jesus made it very clear that he will be coming after the Tribulation period has ended. God himself stated when the First Resurrection takes place, do we take away from what God states??

As to those of the nations that are alive on earth at the First Resurrection, it must be noted that those that have been killed for their faith during the Tribulation are actually in that First Resurrection, if that is the case then so are those that are alive and have trusted in Christ during that same Tribulation.

You have a decision to make just like us, do we elevate a book by Dr Younce or do we elevate the Word of God, I would suggest to you that you lay down the book of man and pick up the Word of God, align yourself with His words.

Again give me one clear verse that states that Jesus is coming before the tribulation, give me one verse that states that a resurrection takes place before the First Resurrection?

Some people have the attitude, although they may not say it, that people who believe in the pre-trib rapture are unbelievers, or at best, deluded. Yet some powerful men of God, like David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill, believed in the pre-trib rapture (that's right!). You can be anointed with either position, just like some powerful men of God have been Calvinists, and some Arminian (and some in between).

Hello Phillip, I would like to suggest to you the following

It is an example only, in the Book of Daniel it is made very clear in all of the visions and prophecies that the Kingdom area of Babylonia, where the Media Persia, and Greece invaded is very important to God, it is called his kingdom area. It is where the first kingdoms were established and it is where the last kingdom focus will be at the coming of Christ.
It does not say Australia or New Zealand or Philippines, very clearly the Middle East area. Jesus makes it very clear that it is the area of Judea where the Abomination of desolation takes place, as does Daniel, as does Paul as does Revelations and Joel etc.

There will be a kingdom in that area that will come with a ruler and with the aid of 10 other rulers in that same middle east area and there is much written about that person and area.

As an example Today we have a rise of Islam where they state clearly that it is blasphemy to declare that Jesus is the Son and that God is a Father, they are actually beheading people that declare that Jesus is the Son of God, this is the Spirit of the antichrist.

We see this massive Islamic uprising in the middle east and it is growing but it is also destroying those who do not support it, it is against Israel and the Jews and also Christians as well as non believers. It is tragically playing out before our eyes.

If and I say If this empire of Islam is the beast kingdom that arises with the antichrist and they gather together against Israel and they surround Jerusalem, and the nations that area around also send their islam soldiers does that mean that all people on earth are muslims?? No it does not

Are all muslims? No are all Christians? NO are all Jews? No Do all people worship the image? No

If it were that Islamic army when Jesus comes he would destroy those armies that are gathered around Jerusalem to destroy Jerusalem, the very people that declare the Antichrist Spirit that Jesus is not the Son of God and that God is not the Father of Jesus. These same people behead these people, these same people demand servitude of allah and where there mark of servitude on their foreheads and right arm.

If all believers are in the First Resurrection and Jesus destroys all of the Islamic armies gathered around Israel then what would be left on earth would be those that were not believers in Christ and were not supporters of the anti Christ army.

Believers would be in their Immortal bodies, the beast, prophet and his armies and worshippers of the beast would be destroyed, that leaves the mortal people of the nations who were not Believers and also did not worship the Islamic beast.

As I have said it is just an example

Jesus makes it very clear that their will be nations for us to rule over on earth

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Jesus will smite the nations but there are also nations that He will rule over as do we

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

There are still nations alive who are not immortal otherwise why would God say that Satan is to be put in chains so that he does not deceive those same nations that are alive on earth.

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The First Resurrection is the First Resurrection just as God declares

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed are those that are in the first Resurrection

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It does not say blessed are those in the first rapture.

Please Phillip let the authority of Gods Word be your doctrine, not a doctrine of man that contradicts every word of God.

There is not one verse to support a Coming or Resurrection before the Tribulation, No not one.

Drifter you said the following

Some people have the attitude, although they may not say it, that people who believe in the pre-trib rapture are unbelievers, or at best, deluded. Yet some powerful men of God, like David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill, believed in the pre-trib rapture (that's right!). You can be anointed with either position, just like some powerful men of God have been Calvinists, and some Arminian (and some in between).

I do love you brother and I am not one to say what you have just said, but what I do know is that we must and I say must allow scripture to determine or doctrine, not the words of man.

There has been many wonderful men of God that have taught in error, that does not make them a non believer, it just means that they were in error with some part of their doctrine.

Today is no different, we must always be aware that we are responsible for what we teach, and what we teach must align with clear scripture. Today there is not one clear scripture to support a Pre Trib Coming or Pre Trib Resurrection. Scripture is very clear that it is after the Tribulation has ended, these are the words of Jesus, paul, John, God himself. I dare not go against the words of God.
There is not one scripture to support a pretrib view, No not one.

I would challenge you to support scripture and find where there is one.

God himself declares where and when the First Resurrection takes place.

Jesus himself declares when he will come and he said it clearly that it is after the Tribulation has ended.

Man thinks he knows better and states that it is before the 7 year tribulation, man thinks he is better than Jesus himself. Jesus stated that of that day and hour of his coming after the Tribulation has ended no man knows, but after the Tribulation has ended and the signs are seen in the sky then look up as our redemption draws near, then he is at the door.

Give us one verse to support a pretrib view, if you cant then lay down the doctrine that is not based on scripture and stand on what scripture clearly states.

Jesus says he is coming after the Tribulation period is over. God says the First Resurrection takes place when the Bride has finally made herself ready which is after the great city the whore has been judged mystery Babylon

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

God says that the Bride is clothed in the Righteousness of the saints, look at what Comes next, It is Jesus and he destroys the Beast and the First Resurrection has taken place.

If it is the First then it is the first, there can be no other resurrection before this otherwise it would not be the First.
The First Resurrection takes place when Christ comes and destroys the beast and false prophet and armies and satan is bound for 1000 years, not 1007 years.

When I first started this post the focus was on all of the false teachings this year regarding the return of Jesus etc, many of those false predictions never came true.

For those that want to accept what scripture clearly states I would like to present to you the following, I was in bed last night and God kept reminding me about Revelations 19 and 20 and kept saying to me that it is not just the First Resurrection.

Look at what else is the First at that period of time.

It is the first time that a great voice of much people in heaven, are saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

That has never yet been done since Jesus left the earth.
But there's more

For the first time in history the Lamb has come and also the first time where the Bride is made ready and with the righteousness of the saints, when Jesus came the first time the Bride was not ready.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

It is the first time in history where Jesus is going to judge and make war, it is the first time Jesus is coming as a King

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

It is the First time that he will be coming with his armies, in the Old Testament he was described as the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of Heavens Armies as he also is in the NT

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The First time that Jesus will be using His Rod of Iron and sword and trampling the Wine Press of the Wrath of God

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The first time that the Armies of the earth gathered around Jerusalem are destroyed by Jesus

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The First time that the Beast and the False Prophet and those that worship the beast will be dealt with by Jesus

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The First time that Satan is bound for 1000 years by Jesus

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The first time the nations will not be deceived by Satan,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The first time that we will sit on thrones and reign with Christ on earth immortal

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The First Resurrection has clearly taken place at the same time of all of the above events as we are clearly told this by God himself

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus has kept His promise to us His body and His Church as he had stated in Rev 2

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; (He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.)

So I ask you will you accept what God states about the Coming of Jesus and the First Resurrection and its timing as written in Revelations 20 and 2 Thess 2 and Matthew 24 or will you believe a doctrine of man??

Budgie, I do not elevate Dr. Younce, only the words of his book, which is backed up by the Word of God as you say you do also. I have studied your writings and his and use the Word of God to test all things that you and he put in print. I see in the first resurection, the first fruits Jesus Christ, I see those that came out of the graves and walked in Jerusalem after His Resurection to validate our resurection in the Rapture as proof of Jesus saying we will be with Him in the Fathers House and not go through the tribulation for the Christ in us does not have to be tribulized again in us, but we are (delivered from wrath) with those that are already His, never again being crucified with Him, which includes His Spirit that is Born Again in every believer by the Father birthing Jesus Christ in those that He has given the Son for His Bride. Those that are in the tribulation are not His Bride and they will not be in the marriage supper of the Lamb which is in Heaven, not on this earth. This in itself is proof of our being caught up together with Jesus in the air and so we will ever be with the Lord, this does not happen at the end of the Tribulation. How could it be at the end of the tribulation? There are to many problems with post trib.

1 Thessalonians 4:11-18 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those that are being killed now for the Name of Christ are the dead in Christ that will be raised first and that will come with Him to meet us in the air. Those that don't take the mark of the beast and are saved in the tribulation will get their evangelism from the 144,000 sealed Jews that will preach Gods Kingdom and His Christ and the two witnesses also in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. These that are saved are those we will rule over with Christ for 1000 years and all there children from them who have to believe, Not the Bride of whom there is no male or female; (no children) The 144,000 and the two witness have a pretty powerful witness, the two stopping the rain for 3+ years and the fire of the Word of God killing from their mouth those who try to silence them.

I test all things from you or anyone else including Dr. Younce, by the Word of God and what comes out as who and what God is doing with His creation plus always asking the Holy Spirit to give evidence of the truth by the whole of what the Words says, studding to show myself approved, the Whole Word of God which has brought me and none else to the pre-trib rapture peace I have in my spirit and soul/mind.

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ: AS I have said before, waiting and listening for the shout of Christ, the voice of Michael, and the trump of God. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Phillip, first if I am dead, together if I am alive at His coming: Then; 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is His Bride the Body of Christ His Church, which the Father Has given Him.

Amen

So I ask you will you accept what God states about the Coming of Jesus and the First Resurrection... ...or will you believe a doctrine of man??

Are you claiming divine inspiration here? Because unless you are then your own interpretation is also a doctrine of man. Only someone who has absolute epistemologicl authority, like a pope (but he would also have to be able to provide proof of it) can do that.

This is my answer to your question, if it was directed toward me Phillip.

I believe this quote was from budgie; """So I ask you will you accept what God states about the Coming of Jesus and the First Resurrection... ...or will you believe a doctrine of man??"""

I am not divine except by the Spirit of Christ in me sealed by the Holy Spirit who is my Parakleet, Helper and Teacher of this Christ birthed in me by the Father by His incorruptible Seed which is; "Christ in you the hope of Glory;"

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Is not all truth of the Bible as man can understand it divine inspiration? This includes all 66 books of the bible by divine inspiration.

In Christ: Phillip

"""So I ask you will you accept what God states about the Coming of Jesus and the First Resurrection... ...or will you believe a doctrine of man??"""

By the above statement I am clearly stating do we believe what God himself states as to when the First Resurrection takes place and who is in that Resurrection as God so clearly describes or do we believe the words of man.

If God states it is the First Resurrection and it takes place at the timing after the whore city has been judged and at the same time as the Bride finally making herself ready and the time when Christ is coming to earth then it is true, to speak anything else against what God himself clearly describes is a doctrine of Man.

It does not say that the Bride makes herself ready before the Tribulation, it does not say that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation and it certainly does not say that there is another Resurrection before the First Resurrection.

Sadly today many and I say many do not align themselves with what God himself states.

God said it is the First Resurrection and even describes those that are in the First Resurrection and that they are blessed and holy.

Again give one verse in scripture where Jesus states he is coming before the Tribulation, give one verse where Jesus or anyone states that a resurrection takes place before the tribulation.

You will not find one single verse.

Paul himself stated that the rapture takes place after the Resurrection and Paul himself stated that Jesus would not be coming and gathering us to himself until the Apostasy and the revealing of the son of perdition is revealed, Paul even stated that Jesus destroys that son of perdition at that same coming.

Jesus and Paul both said to not be deceived at the timing of his coming and our gathering together to himself.

They said do not be deceived because of all of the false teaching in regards to his coming.

Jesus taught of only two Resurrections as did Paul and John.

Give us one verse to support a coming of Jesus before the Tribulation.

Jesus said he would raise us up at the last day, Jesus said that the Resurrection takes place at the end of the age, Paul said that the Resurrection takes place at the Last Trumpet. Jesus stated that the wheat and the tares must stay together until the end of the age, not 7 years before the end of the age.

Give one verse for a pretrib resurrection and coming, you wont find any, no not one, it is a doctrine of man not of God and is not found anywhere in scripture.

I believe and stand exactly on what God himself states when the First Resurrection takes place, it is in Rev 19 and 20 not in Rev 4;1 as many falsely teach.

I love you brothers and do hope you will align yourselves with what God clearly states.

Hello Phillip, you quoted the following verse
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

and you then stated the following

I see in the first resurection, the first fruits Jesus Christ, I see those that came out of the graves and walked in Jerusalem after His Resurection to validate our resurection in the Rapture as proof of Jesus saying we will be with Him in the Fathers House and not go through the tribulation for the Christ in us does not have to be tribulized again in us, but we are (delivered from wrath) with those that are already His, never again being crucified with Him, which includes His Spirit that is Born Again in every believer by the Father birthing Jesus Christ in those that He has given the Son for His Bride. Those that are in the tribulation are not His Bride and they will not be in the marriage supper of the Lamb which is in Heaven, not on this earth.

Firstly those that were resurrected at the Resurrection of Christ were not raised immortal, you wont find any record of them being raised immortal. Paul states clearly in 1 Cor 15 that Jesus was the First and one and only to be resurrected immortal and that all others would be raised immortal at his parousia.

Secondly there is no Resurrection in the rapture, the truth is as Paul clearly states in 1 Thess 4 the rapture or seizing takes place after the Resurrection, the Resurrection preceeds the seizing not the other way around.
The truth is that the rapture is after the Resurrection.

dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 (Then) we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (with them) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Secondly you quoted

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You must and I say must look at what Greek word Paul uses he did not use the word wrath, he used the greek word orge, you must and I say must then look at all of the places where this word orge is used in Revelations.

We differentiate the Love words as Agape, Phileo etc, we do not throw them all in a basket and say that they are all the same love, Agape is Agape.

In all of the places where this orge word is used in Revelations it is at the same timing, it is when Christ is coming to this earth to trample the winepress of God, it is after the Tribulation has ended not seven years before.
Have a look.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

It is a great error to say that the supposedly 7 year tribulation is the orge of Jesus, as Jesus shows us clearly in the Book of Revelations when His Orge takes place.

I say this to you.

Paul stated (that promise) nearly 2000 years ago, it states that we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation.
Paul died in the first Century so is the promise for him also or is it only for a supposedly pre 7 year trib people.

For all of those people that have died in the last 2000 years what is the wrath that they are not appointed to, It Is Not the 7 Year Tribulation. It is the wrath of God when he raises the dead at the end of the 1000 years of Christ reign, they will receive salvation and Resurrection immortal in the First Resurrection, they do not have to fear the second death.
For those that are alive on earth at the time of Christ Coming after the Tribulation has ended it is the same reward, it is to be resurrected immortal when Christ comes after the Tribulation has ended and when he will pour out his ORGE on those gathered around Jerusalem.

This is the First Resurrection, not the second or third or fourth.

Christ in you, you also said the following
Those that are in the tribulation are not His Bride and they will not be in the marriage supper of the Lamb which is in Heaven, not on this earth.

Give us one verse where it states that because that is not found anywhere in scripture. They are dangerous words.
God himself states that the Bride has made herself ready and she is clothed in the (righteousness of the saints) and this is in Rev 19 to 20.

I challenge you to do a word search in Revelations as to how many times the word saints is used.

here is just a couple
Rev_13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These saints keep the Faith of Jesus and you say that they are not part of the bride, that is a shame.

God himself states that those that are in the First and I say again First Resurrection are those that were in the Tribulation and also came out of the Tribulation.

It is the First Resurrection and if that is the case then as paul clearly states the rapture takes place after the Resurrection and we know that this is the First Resurrection as Paul clearly states that there is an order to the Resurrection, Jesus First and later the whole crop at His Parousia. That is one whole Resurrection of the whole Crop at one time.

Let go of this fleshly doctrine of man, the Bride is made up of Jew and Gentile right up to the time of His Coming which Jesus states clearly is after the Tribulation has ended

Budgie wrote: """Firstly those that were resurrected at the Resurrection of Christ were not raised immortal, you wont find any record of them being raised immortal. Paul states clearly in 1 Cor 15 that Jesus was the First and one and only to be resurrected immortal and that all others would be raised immortal at his parousia."""

"were not raised immortal", where does it say that?

If this were true then any that are resurrected could die again in judgement and God would be making mistakes in the Rapture and resurrection, this of course is a false assumption that those that came out of the grave had to die a second time.

Luke 20:34-36 says, "And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: NEITHER CAN THEY DIE ANY MORE: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION."

Hebrews 9:25-27 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men (once to die), but after this the judgment:

I Corinthians 15:12-20 says, "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

AS I said before, those that came out of the graves after Jesus the First Fruits, they were a conformation for those that believe in the Rapture, pre-trib resurrection of the dead first and the rest together meeting the Lord in the Air and so we all shall be with the Lord. This could not happen post-trib. That is judgement and casting in the fire, not caught up to be with the Lord forever in the Fathers house, which Jesus has prepared for us and made His Bride ready.

In Christ: Phillip

Budgie then wrote; """Secondly you quoted

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

You must and I say must look at what Greek word Paul uses he did not use the word wrath, he used the greek word orge, you must and I say must then look at all of the places where this word orge is used in Revelations."""

appointed; Strong's Greek Dictionary
5087. τιθημι tithemi
Search for G5087 in KJVSL
τιθημι tithemi tith'-ay-mee theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)
to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from 2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while 2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate):””+ advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

See Greek 2476
See Greek 2749

wrath; Strong's Greek Dictionary
3709. οργη orge
Search for G3709 in KJVSL
οργη orge or-gay'
from 3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:””anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

See Greek 3713

obtain; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4047. περιποιησις peripoiesis
Search for G4047 in KJVSL
περιποιησις peripoiesis per-ee-poy'-ay-sis
from 4046; acquisition (the act or the thing); by extension, preservation:””obtain(-ing), peculiar, purchased, possession, saving.

See Greek 4046

Salvation; Strong's Greek Dictionary
4991. σωτηρια soteria
Search for G4991 in KJVSL
σωτηρια soteria so-tay-ree'-ah
feminine of a derivative of 4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally):””deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

See Greek 4990

What do we obtain and what are we kept from?

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you for asking this question regarding those that arose with Jesus not being immortal.
I will try and answer this is simply as possible and using scripture.
There were many resurrections before Jesus was resurrected. Lazarus was raised but he died again later, does the bible tell us he died later No but we know he did.
None of them were raised immortal, if so then the word of God is not true.
Jesus was the First Born of the dead and He was raised immortal never to die again.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15 that in Adam all died, this is true.
Paul also said that in Christ all (shall be) made alive, this event shall be has not yet been fulfilled.
Paul said 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Paul clearly states that Jesus himself is the firstfruits and later at his coming ALL in Christ shall be made alive.
There was a false teaching sweeping through the church in the book of Timothy that was causing destruction, there was some that were saying that the Resurrection had already taken place.

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

There has been no Resurrection of immortality yet except Jesus, it is still future and it was the desire of Paul to be in that Resurrection, Paul did not say rapture, he said Resurrection.

Php_3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

What is this Resurrection that Paul is referring to? It is the Resurrection of the Just, the First Resurrection.

So is the word of God true and was it Jesus the firstfruit only, as paul said and all others later at His Parousia, or do we say the word of God is not true.

There has been no Resurrection of immortality yet, Jesus said it will happen at the end of the age, God said it will happen in Rev 19 and 20.

I hope I have explained it clearly with scripture.

There is an order to the Resurrection as Paul said and God tells us when this First Resurrection takes place.

Hello Phillip I am glad you asked me this question regarding the 1 thess 5;9 verse, I am glad you are searching and talking with me.

The following verse is what you were asking about

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to (wrath Orge G3709), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Greek word that Paul clearly used was G3709 as you showed, it was not any other Greek word it was orge, it was not soteria, it was not peripoiesis, it was not tithemi.

It was Orge and for that reason Paul used that very word. That same Orge word is used in very selective places by God in Revelations and all relate to the Orge that takes place at Christs coming.

Paul Did Not Say For God has not appointed us to the great 3 and one half year tribulation but to obtain salvation by Jesus before that great 3 and one half year Tribulation.

Paul said Orge.

Many make out as if Paul was talking about the Tribulation period only in this verse, if that is the case then what purpose would it have for a believer if it only related to the great tribulation. Paul and all of the Apostles and all believers in the thousands of years have believed in this hope, they were not appointed to Orge but to obtain salvation in Christ Jesus.

They were burned alive, boiled alive, crucified, sawn in two, eaten by lions, suffered great persecution, torture and death.

So did they all obtain wrath or Salvation.

The wrath that they have been saved from is the Eternal Judgement of God.

When they died they went into the presence of God because they had trusted in God, they are not in a place of torture, they are in a place of Love, they have not yet received their immortal bodies but when Christ returns at the end of the age and the First Resurrection takes place and they will be the First to be raised immortal, never and I say never having to fear the second death, never and I say never having to fear the White Throne Judgement at the end of the 1000 years.
Blessed and Holy are they that are in the First Resurrection.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

These promises Jesus gave to the Church to His servants.

We will obtain Salvation in Jesus, we will be in that First Resurrection, we will not have to fear the 2nd death.

Praise God all who have been slaughtered over the thousands of years and have lost so much, all who believe in Jesus today in the middle east and are being slaughtered daily by ISIS they will obtain Salvation.

They watch their own daughters and wives and mothers being raped and murdered, they themselves have their heads cut off, their arms and legs cut off, crucified and burned alive, right now as I write this they are being slaughtered.

If you went over there and looked them in the face and into their eyes and said you are not appointed wrath you wont go through the great tribulation but you are to obtain Salvation. How would they respond to you??
They are being killed in front of your eyes.

The wrath that we are not appointed to is to stand in front of God and be told we are going into Eternal Punishment, the Wrath that we are not appointed to is the Orge that Jesus will pour out at his Parousia, that is what we are not appointed to.
We are appointed to Salvation, come here my good and faithful son you were clothed in the Blood of Jesus
We are appointed Salvation to be in the presence of God when we die
We are appointed to Salvation to be in that First Resurrection when He Comes in all his Glory

I hope I have answered this question for you.

Phillip it is so vital today that we stand on the word of God for truth and not the teachings of men, I know it is hard after we have been told so many teachings by men.
Look at what the early Catholic church taught regarding penance, mother mary confessions to the priest etc.

There are many today that are starting to search scripture to see if what they are told is true and scriptural, they are being set free from doctrines of man.

Please and I beg you please search the scriptures for yourself to see if what you say is scriptural.

Jesus Himself told us when he is coming and he said to not be deceived.

Jesus could not have made it any clearer.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus own disciples asked Him this personal question, what is the clear evident thing that will be seen regarding your Parousia.
It is the same question we ask today as believers.

Jesus told them exactly what the clear evident sign will be before He comes and even told us when to look up.

Why would Jesus spend two whole Chapters in Matthew 24 and 25 talking about His Parousia unless he wanted us to know.

He even told us to learn the parable of trees.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Here is that Parable

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

You wont find any verse in all scripture where Jesus says he is coming before the Tribulation.

So why believe in a doctrine that has not one verse to support it??

Why not just believe the words of Jesus Himself

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of THAT VERY SAME DAY of His Coming which He said happens after the Tribulation period has ended no man knows, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But we do know what happens before He Comes and we do know when to look up and when our Redemption draws nigh, it is clearly not yet.

Give me one verse that states Jesus is coming before the Tribulation,

Is Jesus telling us the Truth when He said he is Coming after the Tribulation or do we believe the words of man??

Do we learn the parable he commanded us to learn so that we will know the signs before he comes or do we listen to the words of Men?

I Beg you brother search the scriptures and let the word of God be your Doctrine.

I love you in the Lord