Legal homosexual marriage IS the judgment of God, not the cause of judgment

An interesting two minute observation. Thoughts?

http://youtu.be/71kot4kAy9M

I have reached the same conclusion in reading Romans 1.

Romans 1:26-28
For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

I admit that I (and I think most Christians) have probably missed this point.

Most Christians would say that God's judgment will fall on America BECAUSE of the endorsement of gay marriage. However, as you point out per Romans 1 the judgment IS the giving over to homosexuality.

In other words, judgment has already fallen on those who shake their fists at God. They have received what they have asked for.

Hi TMK

I think there are 2 parts to this

1. the sin of the individual
2. the sin as a nation

the sin of an individual effects them personally as stated in Romans but the sin of a nation effects everyone.

A righteous Judge in America will be resigning from his position because he cannot endorse gay marriage as this goes against his christian beliefs but as a judge he must obey the law. This is starting to effect many Christians at the moment and it is either obey the law, resign or reap the penalties of the Law.

when the leaders of a country bow down to satanic principles then it is the people that reap from what is sown whether they believe in it or not.

Hi Karl-

I think your response is what a lot of folks would say, but what makes you think that God has any interest in the USA as a nation?

It is reasonable. The Chaldeans were both judgment and the reason for judgment on themselves. Perhaps we are both too.

Very interesting!
Honestly hadn't considered this perspective and my initial response was that it very well may be the case, tho I'll need to study further. What pricked up my ears was the speakers humility and lack of dogmatism which I appreciated as it lends some credibility for me to his perspective. Definitely something to take seriously if this is in fact the case as it would change our directive in addressing this issue that we will be confronted by in the days ahead.

Hi TMK

I am not sure if i fully understand your question so forgive me if i get my response wrong. God has an interest in all nations and people because the more corrupt the leadership becomes the more Satan destroys the people and tries to keep them captive. On the other side of the coin God is giving a voice to his people who are speaking up against what is happening. Some ministers that are really making bold statements now, didn't a few years ago. I'm not disagreeing with you i just think there are various parts to the answer.

I think America is the main battle ground at the moment for spiritual warfare due to its influence in many, many countries around the world. Music, products, movies and news. Its the most looked at country as well because it is a superpower.

Just my view TMK

Interesting. I like what crusader said about the duel stream individual/ national. As a nation I believe we have an administration in office that has openly thumbed its nose at God in almost every way possible, and I believe our cup is now full, the same sex marriage thing I never ever saw as them wanting marriage for the sake of marriage, but rather they wanted approval for a life style choice they make. It has been interesting to me how that we quickly moved for same sex marriage to transgender lifestyles and personalities moving quickly to the forefront. If God doesn't burn America with fire He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah (I speak tongue and cheek here). BTW I think the radio commentator did and excellent job with that callers question.

Hi Karl-

I don't think God cares about America the same way He did for Israel. Israel was a theocracy where the Priests enforced the law. Most other nations in OT were judged because of the way they treated Israel. God punished Israel because of the way they treated God.

I just don't think the same dynamic is in play when it comes to the U.S. I don't even think that favored 2 Chron 7:14 verse applies to us today in the U.S.

I think God holds men accountable, not nations. That is not to say that a nation won't reap what a majority of its inhabitants sow. But that is different than God bringing a specific drastic judgment on a nation because He has no special relationship with nations. Just people.

JFW wrote: "What pricked up my ears was the speakers humility and lack of dogmatism which I appreciated as it lends some credibility for me"

Me too, which his why I really like Steve Gregg. His website has full audio commentary on the books of the Bible and numerous topical teachings.

He is very good at laying out various views of a topic or passage and letting the listener decide which is correct. Of course he does take some strong positions, but he always admits he may be wrong.

I really wish you were right here. The truth however in both OT and NT points to the direct involvement of God in the whole earth as that which belongs to Him. As to Israel based OT promises applying to us today, I guess it really comes down to the faith and closeness to God a person has and whether or not we believe God can or will speak to us from His Word in the OT, or how alive we really think His written Word is and how relevant we see it in our world view. Just thinking out loud:) Blessing bro.

Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed untill the righteous where removed.

If a homosexuall mob comes to my house and insist on raping my guest, I do not have to offer the woman of my house as a sacrafice for them to satisfy there lust.
I would simply call my local Sheriffs department of whom I have known the local Sheriff since I was 14. And he would come with his deputys, (many of whom I went to school with) and they would arrest all those within the mob.
And than those homosexuall offenders would be taken to our local county court and brought before the local judge (whom my mom went to school with and whom is a christian) and the local judge would sentance those in the mob to many years in a state prison.

only 2 to 7% of our population identifies themselves as homosexual and in my area probably less than 1% do.

The homosexuall marriage did not come to the U.S. by way of majority vote, it came by a very small majority of appointed judges.

The next President of the US could very easly be someone like Carson whom is open and outspoken against homosexuall marriage. How come is that ? Because there is still a very large percentage of people in the US whom hold to a Christian value system at least when they vote.

"At least when they vote", if judgement is coming to the US in which it very well maybe. Will it be because of : 2 to 7% of our population and the descision of a few appointed judges or will it be because of things such as the pornography and infedility epidemic in this generation.

Why did America not face judgement with what they did to the Indians, or black slave trade, etc.

Why did America not face judgement with what they did to the Indians, or black slave trade, etc.

Hollywood glorifies the early times of this nation, but history covers it with blood , disease, pestilence, famine, and much more. Judgement at every turn and these days are no different, however, as time winds down now the "SPIN" will become increasingly harder to believe from the mainstream media and lukewarm half baked Christians in leadership.

I see the Word of God playing out at every turn Rev 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Agreed PP.

There is a solid remnant of believers in the U.S. We are overwhelmed by a minority of radical sinners and a majority of decent folks who aren't believers.

Why would God punish the godly with the wicked? Per Romans 1 God giving over the wicked to their own desires is the judgment they get.

I just think God is more concerned with persons than nations. His own nation (Israel) did not follow Him despite His efforts and judgments. I really don't think He expects a Christian nation. But he expects Christians in the nation to follow hard after Him.

RE: ///but history covers it with blood , disease, pestilence, famine, and much more. Judgement at every turn and these days are no different, ///

good point.

edit erase and add :

When I posted :"Why did America not face judgement with what they did to the Indians, or black slave trade, etc."
I felt a slight bit of wrestlessness and I had no I dea why, so instead of defending my question I am just going to leave it alone. and agree that dohzman made a good point.

Why would God punish the godly with the wicked?

This indeed is the million dollar question, since Jesus died and rose again Rev 17:6
\t
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

I have often wondered why Christians die in natural disaster events but have read where some were miraculously spared while others were given grace to endure the same events and still yet others graduated and the Lord brought them home to be with Him in what the Apostle Paul speaks of as being "Better". In all things I believe the Lord gives us the "now" grace for which ever path He chooses for us ...the wicked will never know that grace, so for them it is judgement but for us it is "well done good and faithful servant enter into the joy.....that is our hope.

It is note worthy to look at the history of Sodom before Israel was a nation. How the Lord was with Abram in the battle of Kings to deliver them and how He later judged them sparing Lot/ Jesus Himself admonishing us to remember Lots wife and likened our day in the same manner as that day/ again before Israel was a people. I believe that the nations and their rulers are more in the view or on the scales of Almighty God than what is comfortable to consider in a society such as ours:/

Decent folks = non Christians who act like Christians should act. I know many.

RE///Decent folks = non Christians who act like Christians should act. I know many.///

like the good samaritan

Marc wrote: "Their behavior regardless of its appearance or virtue has Adams rebellion and wickedness as its source."

We all know that.

The issue is still whether God is concerned with a nation as a whole vs individual inhabitants.

There has never been a nation as a nation that has followed God. Only remnants of individuals in nations do that.

Marc wrote: "Because the ability to walk in obedience to God is a gift."

Yes, perhaps in part. But it would seem very odd for God to command men to do something if it can only be done if He gives them grace to do it.

TMK: "Yes, perhaps in part. But it would seem very odd for God to command men to do something if it can only be done if He gives them grace to do it."

No, it's not odd. Galatians 3:19-29 - http://bit.ly/1PEdLwk

We could never do what God required, apart from abiding in Him. How otherwise could we have obeyed the first and greatest commandment, which is to love God with all of our being?

The choice which men have - throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, and even today - is whether we choose to trust in ourselves or our idols, or trust God who is the source of righteous living.

Yuehan, Marc, Julius-

I do not disagree with your statements. They are all true.

But there seems to be more to the story.

I am trying to think of an analogy but having some difficulty, but here is one that may be close.

Let's say that I command my son to drive to the store to buy some milk. However, I have the only set of car keys in my pocket. My son cannot obey until I give him the keys. So is it "right" for me to command him to drive to the store if I do not also hand over the keys when I make the command? It would also be ok to command this of him if he had his own set of keys (i.e. the ability to obey).

When Paul was preaching on Mars Hill, he said that God commands men everywhere to repent. To me the simple meaning of this verse is that since God commands this of men that they are able to comply.

I don't think we can simply remove man's responsibility from the equation.

TMK -

My answer to your analogy is that it is the son's responsibility to reach out for your set of keys - an act of "faith", so to speak.

Too many people - in the position of the son - try to drive without asking for the set of keys.

I also think it would be a worthwhile endeavour to do a word study on "repentance", "man's responsibility", "obedience"... concepts which can be nebulous or not precisely understood by many Christians.