GODLY / UNGODLY,....

Hi Elizabeth,

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the UNGODLY, nor standeth in the way of SINNERS, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the UNGODLY and for SINNERS, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which UNGODLY SINNERS have spoken against him.

We have these 3 divisions:
Ungodly
Sinners
Ungodly Sinners

Ahh, that's too bad. Sorry to hear that.

Hi Elizabeth,

I do agree that godliness is the operation of God in our lives. Godliness is not something we can manufacture.

The character of Christ is godliness and we are dependent on Him and His life in us. Before we were regenerated we were dependent on our old father the devil and produced ungodliness. After, regeneration and filling of the Holy Spirit, we are dependent on Jesus Christ whose spirit is the Spirit of Holiness.

Godliness is only the result of the expression of Jesus Christ in our lives. We are vessels, temples and cups. As Milton Green used to say, "we are cartons".

"Great is the mystery of godliness" (1 Tim 3:16).

Godliness is never the result of man's attempt to be like God or imitate Christ. The Christian life of godliness is not imitation but MANIFESTATION..."the life of Jesus manifested in our mortal bodies" (II Cor. 4:10-11)

Why does the Bible tell us to "follow after...godliness" and "exercise thyself rather unto godliness"? (I Tim 4:7 and 6:11). It is simply following after Jesus. Listening to Him, abiding in Him and to abide once must obey. No abiding without obedience.

Religion thinks it is something we do and ends up with a "form of godliness but denying the power thereof" (2Ti 3:5)

The self effort of religious works will never generate godly character (godliness).

Only as the Person of Jesus Christ is active in a Christian life will they have the "working of His Power" (Eph 3:7) sufficient to reign in life through Jesus Christ. (II Cor 12:9 and Rom 5:17,21).

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; (II Cor 3:5)

God is the only source of all godliness and only the Lord Jesus Christ can live the Christian life. The same godly life that He lived while on earth is the life that He wants to live in us. Only by the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1:5; 16:26), listening to His voice and being ready to receive His words and obey them will we allow Him to function within and through us, expressing His godliness.

Great also is the Mystery of Iniquity where once we allowed the Devil to function in and through us manifesting his character and ungodliness.

When Adam sinned and lost the life of God, he ceased to be in the image of God and his entire soul (personality) became available to the devil and the devil surely and wholly exploited Adam producing a race of ungodly men, manifesting ungodly character.

Once people understand the mystery of iniquity they are able to understand the mystery of godliness. The principles involved are identical. When we act in obedience to the Truth (Jesus Christ) then godliness is manifested, but when we act in obedience to Lies (Liar, Devil), then ungodliness is manifested.

Everyone (saint or sinner) has a spiritual father and cannot stand independent because man was made to be dependent, spiritually and manifests the spiritual character of his (F|f)ather.

Julius21,

Your reply is classic textbook stuff, it is widely held as right, it is preached in every town, I have personally read it in one form or another in hundreds of books, it seems so neat and tidy, it seems to make perfect sense, but it is wrong. And believing it is the major reason the church is powerless, in a mess, can't get arrested for throwing bricks through windows, puts people into bondage, sucks any hope of joy out of the Christian life and why God never shows up.

Since you have opposed every single word I have posted on sermonindex I expect this to be no different. So no need to reply to me I simply encourage you to dig into everything you said and revisit the entire idea, toss out the party line and see what you find.

There is so little said in the Bible about Adams fall and God intended the truth be mined in prayer and humility. But the real story is life changing. I literally watch chains of bondage fall off believers whenever the Lord brings His wounded to me. Be blessed and dig my brother.

marcmc

Marc,

You already know I do not ascribe to Calvin's teachings so of course we disagree on many things and obviously will continue to. No need to keep reminding me, either unless of course you have some other motive. Then I suppose you will continue.

Nothing to do with Calvinism. It has to with Adam and what really happened in the garden. I don't hold Calvin's opinion on it.

Ask yourself this simple question. Why would God say so little about the event that had such a massive impact on man. That is why Paul calls it the Mystery of Iniqiuty.

It is the second most important event in all of scripture and yet God the Holy Spirit only gives us a handful of versus. But it is the source of everthing that followed. All things must begin at the beginning and everything else follows that line. But God only throws down a bit of scratch. He is brilliant.

marcmc

It is not as hidden as you think it is. Where have you been digging?

1 Corinthians 2:10-12
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

That's how He does it.

All I said was your first post in this thread is full of error, you don't thnk it is so be well. I did what I was told.
marcmc

Like all of us, you are free to express your opinion. I prefer the opinion of the Scriptures.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.

John 8:44 YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, AND THE LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER YE WILL DO. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Can man stand independent, apart from God or Satan? The Scriptures do not offer a third alternative.

The Mystery of Godliness is "Christ in you".

The Mystery of Iniquity, for us "cups, vessels and branches", is the opposite as the scriptures attest.

Mat 12:33-34 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

P

Thank you, Elizabeth.

Jesus was very clear when he spoke of demons. They are all referred to as Satan not only by Jesus, but by Peter and Paul and other apostles.

When He spoke to Peter, He knew Satan was not sitting on Peter's shoulder. We don't believe that a devil sits on one shoulder and an angel on the other. Peter knew very well from his experience that all demons are referred to as Satan, the deceiver and liar and that is why he ask Ananias why Satan had filled his heart to lie to the Holy Spirit.

Paul knew this too. When he spoke to King Agrippa concerning the Gospel to turn many people "from the power of Satan unto God".

Jesus had just cast a devil out of a man in Matt 12:22. And the Jews accused Him of "casting out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of the devils."

You see, even the Jews knew there were many devils.

Jesus tells us that "If Satan cast out Satan, he is divided".

Here we see that Jesus Christ refers to all "devils" as Satan.

Jesus often referred to devils as Satan. He spoke of a woman "whom Satan hath bound" for eighteen years; and "then entered Satan into Judas". Paul spoke of "delivering such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" and "lest Satan should get an advantage of us, for we are not ignorant of his devices".

Were Paul and Peter ever accused of thinking Satan was omnipresent? I don't recall that they were.

Paul's salutations to the church at Rome:

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

I look forward to continuing this study with you, Elizabeth.

Grace and peace to you and anyone else who joins.

by marcmc on 2015/9/13 13:10:33

Julius21,

The third alternative is the first Adam, but of course you have an omnipresent Satan.

If I made Satan "omnipresent" then Paul, Peter and Jesus did, too. See my response to Elizabeth.

The first Adam was not an independent self. He did not stand apart from God, (his merciful and loving father) until he sinned, then he was a child of the devil and he was sold into sin/slavery to a merciless, and hateful father.

Nope,

marcmc

Yep!

Not only did Jesus Christ have to ransom man back from Satan, but all the kingdoms of this world which were under the domain of Adam were delivered to Satan when Adam sinned. Satan became the new father of everyone that was born, henceforth. He had all the rights and control over men.

Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: FOR THAT IS DELIVERED UNTO ME (Adam delivered them to Satan through his sin); and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Man only becomes a child of God when they are born-again. Religion says that all men are children of God but the Scriptures disagree with that.

Gal_3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

P

I don't like Kenneth Copeland's teachings. I doubt if you even know what I am talking about.

Let me ask you something. You say there is a 3rd alternative.

We know God only ever speaks of Himself and Satan.

Blessing and Curse
Deut 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

Good and Evil, Life and Death
Deut 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Godliness and ungodliness...

Holy and profane...

Of all these options which are in two's what is your 3rd alternative?

You are implying that Adam can stand alone and apart from any relationship with God or Satan, good and evil and blessings and curses, life and death, all of which come from either partaking of the Tree of Life or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (again, God or Satan).

We are either branches getting our spiritual sustenance from the True Vine or branches in the corrupt Tree that brings forth evil fruit. (Matt 7:17).

Do you see all the "pairings". Two alternatives, only.

Tell us about your 3rd alternative and can we have more than just your words? Scriptures?

P

Jesus did not repudiate Satan, did He Marc?

He just said "Get thee behind me Satan".

The picture that I see portrayed in scripture seems to be that the deceiver, that serpent of old, is still actively deceiving the nations, and will do so until the 7th trumpet sounds, "THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST and He shall reign for ever and ever."

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Allow me to ask you some questions, now:

1) When Satan had a conversation with God in the book of Job chapter 1, was he telling the truth of where he had been?

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 2:2, also).

2) Why would God even converse with Satan if God cannot make him answer truthfully to Him
?
Job_2:4,6 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

3) Was the "Great Deceiver" telling the truth to God about Job's protection?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Seems the "father of lies" was telling the truth and God acknowledged it by saying he would in essence remove the hedge from Job's and his family.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

4) Was Satan telling the truth to Jesus that he desired to "sift Peter like wheat"?

so is that a yes or no in that specific instance?

marc mc

What is not clear about Rev 11:15?

Why don't you start a new thread as this one has been derailed. I would like to get back on the original OP about godly and ungodly and I am sure Elizabeth would, too.

Of course, he always mixes truth with his lies. He did it in the garden and he did it when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

That is how he gets people to accept his lies, by mixing in just enough truth to make his lies palatable. That is why he is called The Deceiver.

Hi Elizabeth,

Your insights are much appreciated. When you mentioned "plumb line", I though instantly of our Plumb Line, Jesus Christ. He is our standard and not any man. Everything points back to Christ and absolutely no one else and nothing else, can be given any credit or glory.

Interesting that Paul coined the phrase "form of godliness" for this implies a counterfeit and not true godliness, just a form (empty shell). And we know who the master counterfeiter is. Satan can be very, very "spiritual", very religious, yet behind his facade, (or form of godliness) is no distinct power for true godliness. No power to overcome, no power to sow to the Spirit and deny the flesh, no power to love.

The "form of godliness" or counterfeit is derived from sowing to the flesh or also, partaking of the "bad tree", which is Satan. We know the flesh cannot please the Lord and thus the flesh cannot generate godliness. Godliness is Christ and Jesus Christ cannot be generated, He can only be enthroned in our hearts, (surrendered to). Neither can self-discipline or ascetism generate godliness. Godliness is not morality, philosophy, theology or adherence to a belief system. Godliness is Christ and is manifested in our lives by abiding in Him and allowing Him to live in us (Gal 2:20).

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING.

There really is nothing we can boast in except Jesus Christ.

Godliness is a Person just as ungodliness is a person. This agrees with the Scriptures just as Salvation is a Person and Perdition is a person. Judas was the "son of perdition".

Love, Goodness, Grace, Mercy, and Truth are all personified in Christ.

All of these "gifts" are found in the Person of Jesus Christ. He does not impart commodities, He imparts Himself.

Likewise, Evil, rebellion, idolatry, strife and hatred are also a person or tree.

Men are cups, vessels and branches and derive their character from whom they are abiding in. Men are not independent spiritual creatures that were created to stand alone, apart from God or Satan.

There are only two kingdoms, the Kingdom of Heaven/God and the Kingdom of Satan (Darkness) (Revelation 16:10).

Men are citizens of only one of these two kingdoms, and subjects of the Ruler of each of these two kingdoms. The character and behavior of the Ruler of each of these kingdoms is alive in their subjects.

There is no 3rd Kingdom and whilst a person is in one of these two kingdoms, they cannot stand aloof from their King. To be in the Kingdom is to be "in the K(k)ing" and the K(k)ing to "be in them". That is how one is in the Kingdom in the first place.

These two Kingdoms are at war with each other. One Kingdom is warring in the spiritual realm to set people free while the other kingdom is warring in the same realm, seeking to keep man in bondage and capture citizens from the Kingdom of God, (by convincing them to give into the lusts of the flesh). Satan carefully conceals himself! Most people, Christian and non-Christian do not understand the level of involvement of the powers of Darkness in their lives. And likewise, God's people do not understand the level of involvement that Jesus Christ desires to have in their lives.

Three vital (initial) truths needed today are a proper understanding of 1) What is man? 2) Who is Satan and the powers of Darkness 3) who is Jesus Christ.

The ignorance of these three lead to many erroneous theologies and spiritual misunderstandings.

P

Hi Marc,

Yes, basically you repeated what I said, with some additions. I am happy to clarify and expand.

Number 1, first.

1) Ungodliness is a person?

Satan is the source of all that is not of Christ. Man is not the source because man was not created to stand independent of God or Satan. Man cannot create EVIL. Evil has a source and man is not the source. Man chooses to abide in Christ or Satan, but oftentimes does not know he is abiding in the "spirit of disobedience" (Eph 2:2). Enlightened people (Spirit-filled Christians) know the difference.

The Scriptures say that Satan is the "Father of Lies", and that he was a "Liar from the beginning". Satan is not a concept or a metaphor. He is a personal being. Scriptures also state that "Satan filled Ananias' heart to lie". Here again, we see Satan's hand in someone's life and ostensibly, this person was a believer.

We know from Scriptures, that unbelievers are ruled by the "spirit of disobedience" (rebellion).

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So, yes Satan is ungodliness personified just as Christ is godliness personified. Man is incapable of generating godliness without Christ. We need the Godly One in our lives. Our fruit, is the Fruit of the Spirit, not the Fruit of man. As man chooses to abide in Christ, he also chooses to abide in the spirit of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the one that filled Ananias' heart to lie and the one that was working in Peter in Matthew 16. Satan was truly speaking through Peter and Christ rebuked Satan. Man does not consciously choose to abide in the Father of Lies, but he does consciously choose to lie. Satan is the great Deceiver, always concealing his existence and workings.

And you agree with points 6,7,8 and 9 as well?

marc mc

6) The two Kingdoms are at war and the primary goal is the souls of men and woman?

Certainly, these are two spiritual kingdoms and the war cannot be waged in the flesh.

2Co_10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Our weapons are spiritual weapons and the "armour of God" is Jesus Christ. "Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ".

Eph_6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and WENT TO MAKE WAR WITH THE REMNANT of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Dragon is Satan.
Rev_20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

7) Satan is warring to keep souls from the Kingdom of God and get back (through temptation) souls that have escaped and are in the Kingdom of God?

Satan works through deception and lies and seeks to steal the "good seed" out of our hearts. That is why we must renew our minds.

Matt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

We are in a battle to overcome the Wicked One.
1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, BECAUSE YE HAVE OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Cain was of the Wicked One. The source of Cain's hatred and murder was Satan, and he chose to derive his behavior from that which was not of God. Most people don't know they are abiding in the Wicked One.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

We must "KEEP" ourselves in many ways to make sure the "wicked one" does not "touch us". And ask yourself what that means to be "touched" by the Wicked One.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God KEEPETH HIMSELF, and THAT WICKED ONE TOUCHETH HIM NOT.

How are we to "Keep" ourselves?" This is all part of fighting the good fight of faith.
Here are 6 ways and you can search for the rest. 1)Keep yourselves in the love of God. 2) Keep thyself pure 3) Keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4) "Keep himself unspotted from the world 5) Keep His commandments 6) Keep yourselves from idols.

8) Satan is at war and therefore he has strategies, plans and schemes that he uses in a variety of ways as the circumstance demands. He will do and be whatever is required for him to win in his war and attacks against God, Gods Word, Gods people in the old and new Testament as well as the unsaved?

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world HATH BLINDED THE MINDS OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE NOT, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ask yourself what are the "wiles of the Devil?" Does he have a plan against man? Did he have a plan against Adam and Eve?

9) In this war against man, man is rather ignorant and Satan is smarter and more strategic and therefore able to easily deceive man?

Jesus said we were ignorant.
Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Satan not only has strategies for those who are born, but also for the unborn. He seeks to implant rejection, shame, dishonesty, deceit, envy, strife, scorn, panic, impulsiveness, greed, pride, control, anger, hate, self-pity, bitterness, vengeance, fear, covetousness, theft, manipulation, obsession, depression, suicide, argumentativeness, murder, defiance, lust, laziness, gluttony, oppression, filth, addictiveness, infirmity, negativity, darkness, in man.

Notice what Jesus said about Satan.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, AND HATH NOTHING IN ME.

"Hath nothing IN me".

Again, we are to "keep ourselves" from the Wicked One.

Without the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, you cannot stand against a power and an intelligence greater than your own.

Do you believe that concerning the activities of the kingdom of darkness that Satan rules and as a ruler he is therefore free to do and use whatever strategies he chooses to accomplish his goal against God, His Word and the people of the earth?

marcmc

No, Satan serves and operates at the King of King's good pleasure and constraints.

You can see this in Job 1.

Satan desired from the Lord of Lords to "attack" Peter.
Luk_22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

P

I can only say what the Word says and any other further opinions are just opinions.

He definitely sought permission with Job and Peter, and we see that he was involved personally in other lives.

We do know that he has blinded the eyes of the lost.

If Satan needs permission against the people of God, then that implies permission is withheld for other things.

As far as the specific dynamics between he and God in every single circumstance with individuals, I don't think anyone knows, although God does give insight and revelation to people who have had various experiences with the powers of darkness.

We also see that a Satanic principality (Prince) fought an angel who was to bring a message to Daniel. Michael the Archangel joined in the fight to help this angel who was already delayed.

Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. (Kings of Persia are powers and principalities).

It clear that Satan has a will of his own and is not just a simple "puppet", though he will never be able to trump God.

And Michael knows not to even get embroiled in a war of words with Satan.

Jude_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

There is a definitely a war for men's souls, that is fought in prayer and intercession and being faithful to Jesus.

We all have our opinions and they are interesting and then there is the Word. But, what we think the Word says, also varies. Remember, a third of the angels also fell and we don't know how many a third, is. The metaphor of comparing them with the "stars of Heaven", implies a vast multitude.

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

We know demons are at work, because Jesus had them identify themselves. And we know they are many, but we don't have the knowledge to quantify what "many" is or what a "third of the stars" are.

Mark_5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Because the Word interprets itself.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Many interpretations and meanings are lost with new translations and WORD LINKS do not work anymore since so many words have been changed (losing their link with other words and scriptures) propelling the Scriptures and subsequently the Church into confusion.

Often, scriptures are explained by other scriptures, shortly following. It is all the same context.

The "dragon" is symbolically referring to Satan and the stars are symbolic regarding angels.

Sometimes you have to search for a definition. Here is the definition of the symbolic "stars".

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

We cannot ignore the context of stars. It does not mean every time the word stars is used in the bible it is referring to fallen angels.

He convinced 1/3 to rebel with him. This is how he dragged them down and thus they were cast out.

Why do you feel the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages are weak. They seem to be acceptable to rather wide range of writers and commentaries?

marcmc

Todd,

I believe marc's question is directed towards you.

Why doesn't Steve Gregg take a definitive stance on the doctrine of hell? He wrote a book, "ALL YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT HELL."

He presents 3 views of hell but does not take any stance or defend his personal belief.

It is very conspicuous that he throws up 3 views of hell and does not defend any of them, especially the traditional view of eternal hell.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Knowing his view of hell may shed some very much needed light on his various beliefs regarding Satan and why he teaches what he teaches. I notice a lot of self-reasoning and logic in his video.

TMK wrote,

"I personally do not believe that satan has to get God's explicit permission to test individual persons. There are too many people and satan does not have time to do this. He is not omnipotent, omniscient, etc.

I believe he had been given blanket permission to test persons and God can intervene as He sees fit"

So would you say that based upon the incredible persecution the Jews have experienced that God has given Satan blanket permission ( more or less) to attack them for centuries?

marcmc

Well, to get back on track, Satan is definitely the source of ungodliness. I know Elizabeth wanted to explore godliness vs ungodliness and I just want to make sure we don't squeeze her out by chasing rabbit trails.

Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

marcmc

P

I was not the one that said he was given blanket permission. That may have come from TMK.

Fair enough, you said that because Satan had to get permission to attack Job it implied that permission could be denied,

I debated stating both positions and made a call because you really did not counter his point after it was made.

But would you concead that permission would really only apply to his attacks of offensive aggression against people or Nations?

marcmc

I did not counter his point because I did not want to encourage the continuation of a subject that should be in a separate thread. But since that does not seem possible I am going to give you guys an assignment. I have listed many scriptures, below.

Tell me what each scripture tells you about Satan, his activity, attributes, character and operations.

Various references of Satan:

Satan: Greek Σατανᾶς, Satanas - adversary, opponent, to resist, oppose, counteract
Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6 - "and Satan came also among them"
Mk. 1:13 - And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan"
Acts 26:18 - "and from the power of Satan unto God"
I Cor. 7:5 - "that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency"
II Cor. 11:14 - "for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light"
Rev. 12:9; 20:2 - "and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"

Devil: Greek διάβολος, diabolos - slanderer, misrepresenter, deceiver, divider, accuser, divider
Jn. 8:44 - "Ye are of your father the devil"
Eph. 4:27 - "Neither give place to the devil"
II Tim. 2:26 - "he snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will"
Heb. 2:14 - "He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil"
I Jn. 3:8 - "He that committeth sin is of the devil"

Wicked One: Greek πονηρός, poneros - the evil one, hurtful, bad, evil, grievous, lewd, malicious, derelict, vicious
Matt. 13:38 - "but the tares are the children of the wicked one;"
II Thess. 3:3 - "But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil"
I John 3:12 - "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one"
I John 5:18,19 - "that wicked one toucheth him not"

Tempter: Greek peirazo - to pierce in order to prove or examine
Matt. 4:3 - "And when the tempter came to him (Jesus)..."
I Thess. 3:5 - "lest by some means the tempter have tempted you"

Adversary: Greek antidikos - against right or justice
I Pet. 5:8 - "because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

Prince of this world - Greek ἄρχων archōn - a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
Jn. 12:31 - "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out"
Jn. 14:30 - " for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."
Jn. 16:11 - "Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

II Cor. 4:4 - "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not"

Beelzebul, Greek Βεελζεβούλ Beelzeboul - the ruler of the demons, dung god
Matt. 9:34 - "He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils."
Matt. 12:24 - "This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

Belial - Greek Βελίαλ, Belial - possibly "lord of flies, dung, or forest;" worthlessness, an epithet of Satan
II Cor. 6:15 - "And what concord hath Christ with Belial?..."

Prince of the power of the air, Greek ἄρχων archōn - a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
Eph. 2:2 - "according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Enemy: Greek ἐχθρός, echthros = hatred, hostile, hateful, odius, adversary, foe, especially Satan
Matt. 13:25,28,39 - "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat"
Lk. 10:19 - " and over all the power of the enemy"
Acts 13:10 - "And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil"

Dragon, Greek δράκων drakōn - Probably from an alternate form of δέρκομαι derkomai (to look); a fabulous kind of serpent (perhaps as supposed to fascinate): - dragon.
Rev. 12:9 - "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world"
Rev. 20:2 - "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"

Serpent; Greek ὄφις, ophis - (through the idea of sharpness of vision); a snake, figuratively (as a type of sly cunning) an artful malicious person, especially Satan: - serpent.

Gen. 3:1 - "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field"
II Cor. 11:3 - "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty"

Accuser - Greek κατήγορος, katēgoros
Zech. 3:1 - "and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him"
Rev. 12:10 - "or the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Apollyon: Greek Ἀπολλύων, Apolluōn = to destroy; destroyer
Rev. 9:11 - "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit....Apollyon"

Destroyer: Greek ὀλοθρευτής olothreutēs; a ruiner, that is, (specifically) a venomous serpent: - destroyer.
I Cor. 10:10 - "Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer."

P

P

ABSOLUTLY NOT. HE IS A MALAVENT EVIL FALLEN ANGEL THAT WAS ONCE PERFECTLY CREATED BY GOD. HE REBELLED AND WAS CAST DOWN AS SATAN THE ENEMY OF GOD. HE DECIEVES, TEMPTS, SCHEMES AND ATTACKS.

marcmc

But marc, in this instance you are talking to two Christians (not atheists) who revere the Word of God and do not doubt it. (Well, I can only really speak for myself). TMK can make his own statement.

In all the Scriptures that I give much can be gleaned. There is a lot more happening than just man being "infected with the knowledge of good and evil".

Satan is described as an adversary and our enemy. He is not just a negative philosophical idea to counter the "positive" of God.

Satan is a spiritual being, created by God but not as the Evil One that he is today from his own choice to rebel and exalt Himself above God.

He is not omnipotent, omniscient or omnipresent, for only God is. But he is a spirit that is not confined to space and time and so in that respect not a prisoner as man is to being in one place and one time. As a spirit-being, he can move to other places in the speed of a thought (or maybe faster). We don't know. We just know that Paul speaks to the Church, often of Satan implying that everyone can be affected by him. We do know he travels "to and fro on the earth", because we see that in Job.

He is also depicted as a personal being not just an impersonal "force". The Biblical evidence of him being personal is overwhelming.

The Bible describes him as speaking (Luke 4:3), knowing (Rev 12:12), working (Eph 2:2), disputing (Jude 9), desiring (John 8:44), requesting (Luke 22:31), scheming (2 Cor 2:11), conceited (I Tim 3:6), willing (2 Tim 2:26), full of wrath (Rev 12:12), and deceiving (Rev 20:2).

Regarding his character, the Bible tells us he is Evil (John 17:15, 2 Thess 3:3, 1 John 3:12), Sinful (1 John 3:8), Deceitful (Acts 13:10, 2 Cor 11:3, Rev 12:9, 20:2), a Liar (John 8:44, 1 John 3:12), Murderer (John 8:44, 1 John 3:12), Malicious and Self-Exalting (Matt 16:23, Mark 8:33, I Tim 3:6).

And as to his functioning, Satan controls the unregenerate. He works IN man (Eph 2:2), dominates (Acts 26:18, Col 1:13), enslaves (2 Tim 2:26, Rom 6:17), blinds men's minds (2 Cor 4:4), is the source of sin (1 John 3:8,10,12), is the basis of death (Heb 2:14). He has ability to possess, oppresses and controls. For example, Judas. (Mark 8:33, Luke 22:3, John 6:70, 13:2,24). The expressions of Satan's activity can be seen in the "flesh". And we can in the world (of evil) the manifestation of his activity. (Luke 4:5, John 12:31, I Cor 2:12, 1 John 4:4, Rev 12:9, 20:3).

Individually, towards Christians, his activity is manifested as he: Tempts Christians (1 Cor 7:5, I Thess 3:5, James 1:14), accuses them (Rev 12:10), ensnares them (1 Tim 3:7), persecutes them (Rev 2:10), takes advantage of them (2 Cor 2:11), hinders them (1 Thess 2:18), and seeks to influence them to blaspheme and fall away (I Tim 1:20, 5:15).

As a collective Church, he opposes the kingdom of God by creating antichrist activity around the globe and opposing evangelism. (Matt 12:28,29, 1 John 2:18, 4:3, Mark 4:15, Luke 8:12). He creates false religions to counter the activity of the true Church (2 Cor 11:14, Rev 2:9, John 8:44, Col 2:20-23) and spawns counterfeit believer (Matt 13:30). He is the source of the occult, magic and witchcraft (Acts 13:10). As to the degree of illness and infirmity that is promoted by Satan's work these scriptures might give some insight (Luke 13:16, John 9:2,3, Acts 10:38, 1 Cor 11:30, 2 Cor 12:7, Heb 12:6).

P

We are not ignorant and either is God.

God protected Moses when Satan tried to kill him

Satan knows about the Genesis 3:15 prophecy and has tried to wipe out the Jews because he knows the Messiah would come through the Jewish nation.

Many times in the OT Satan tried to wipe out the Jews.

When Jesus was born, again he tried to kill Jesus when Herod decreed that all firstborn male children under 2 should be killed.

Satan did successfully engineer the killing of first born males in attempting to kill Moses, thinking that Moses was the Messiah (but he was mistaken).

He did successfully engineer the killing of first born males in the time of Jesus hoping to kill Jesus.

Satan, thought killing Jesus on the cross finally won him his victory over God. But...

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

For had Satan known that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was his defeat and the power of death and hell would finally be snatched from him, he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.

Now, he thinks he can prevent Christ from coming back if he wipes out the Church and wipes out Jerusalem (Israel).

Again, he will fail.

Why? God is smarter and in control. God will make sure what He has spoken, comes to pass. God and Satan are not an equal duality of equal powers. Like a good god and a bad god.

But Satan still causes death and destruction, doesn't he? He does what God allows and atheists cannot get their mind around this because they don't have the Holy Spirit.

that is a long winded reply that doesn't touch what I said at all. In fact your now defending Satan.

Do you see why I stressed the positions you guys held concerning him so much.

The simple question I have asked is why can satan not stop a single prophesy when he in fact is the one who has to do something to fulfill them! If he is the Ruler of the kingdom that will fulfill them can he not put on the brake and stop or even slightly alter his actions and change their outcome?

Frankly I am shocked by the unawareness that this question raises, do you see how the religious in Jesus day could not hear Jesus. If an Atheist knew what I just asked it would be the foundation of their entire argument from this day forward. And the business as usual answers here would look absurd.

FTR there is a clear and obvious answer that proves the awesome brilliance of our God!!! And Satans utter defeat. But I highly doubt that confirmation bias is going to let us get there.

marcmc

The Jews knew about prophecies, too and did not understand them. marc, I am not really sure what you are saying.

by marcmc on 2015/9/24 12:33:01

that is a long winded reply that doesn't touch what I said at all. In fact your now defending Satan.

Who are you talking to and please quote the statement.

The simple question I have asked is why can satan not stop a single prophesy when he in fact is the one who has to do something to fulfill them! If he is the Ruler of the kingdom that will fulfill them can he not put on the brake and stop or even slightly alter his actions and change their outcome?

Don't send the Antichrist! and BOOM the scripture is PROVEN false. What is hard for you guys to understand.

He has had thousands of similar chances to change thousands of events that were prophesied and HE COULD NOT!!! WHY???

HE IS FULFILLING EVERYTHING SAID ABOUT HIS INVOLVMENT LIKE CLOCKWORK. WHY CAN HE NOT CHANGE HIS OWN ACTION OR INVOLVMENT ONE SINGLE BIT.

marcmc

Let me think about that...

Julius21 wrote.

"Let me think about that..."

Great replay, the Lord brought me the answer first and I realized what I posted here was an inevitable consequence of how His prophesies could not be stopped.

I spent months and months with my heart bowed before I did or said a thing to even my wife.

Be a Berean!

marcmc

Let me think about that...

Well, Satan is prideful, driven and blinded. And, I don't think he knows specifically how to thwart the prophecies. They are a mystery to him, also and he is oftentimes "shooting in the dark". For instance, he thought Moses as a baby was the Messiah. He obviously could not figure out who Genesis 3:15 referred to. Genesis 3:15 said the "seed of a woman" and Satan must have thought it was a man, not realizing that God would become incarnate and die for man. Yes, he was a man, God in the flesh, not Moses of the OT, but rather the "Moses" of the NT (JESUS)!

The "Mystery of Godliness" was a mystery to Satan, too. He had no idea whatsoever that Jesus Christ was going to take up residence in men, either.

Satan does his work against God and His people, but God's people are protected. Just as the Israelites were portrayed as having been "borne on eagles wings" as a metaphor of divine protection.

Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

This does not mean that Christians are always protected from Satan's destructive activity.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But the Church of Jesus Christ will not be destroyed, though their flesh will be.

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Even if we think that Satan has come very close to thwarting Christ

Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

The Lord will prevail.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

The Devil is used to serve God's purposes such as the occasion when God asked Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job?" (Job 1:8) or when Paul explained that God favored him with a thorn in the flesh, "a messenger of Satan" (2 Cor 12:7).

Essentially, God is the cause of all things, but not the blameworthy cause of evil.

The spiritual conflict between God and Satan continues but God is never threatened.

Christians will incur the same conflict with Satan that Jesus experienced while incarnated on earth and this will lead to personal suffering and death. This is what happened to the Christians in the 1st century and every century afterwards.

In God's eternaly foreknowledge and omniscience, this is one chess game, Satan will never win, though he tries very hard to thwart prophecies, he is always "a day late and a dollar short."

P

No, I don't think God is making him do it.

We know that God does not make any man sin and it would go contrary to His character to make Satan do evil things.

What you don't seem to understand is what type of creature Satan is. He is driven by hate and anger and murder and everything evil.

Satan cannot *not* do anything. It is in his nature to wreak destruction because he is the Destroyer.

1Cor_10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

If Satan sees an advantage he will take it that is why Christians should obey the Lord and walk in His way otherwise they are "giving place to the Devil".

Christians don't understand how they give place to the Devil.

Eph_4:27 Neither give place to the devil.

Sin and rebellion are an open invitation to him.

The fluke factor test has been passed here.

Your just throwing mud at the wall. I beat what I have posted here with a sledge hammer for 2 years and nothing has cracked it. I was actually surprised when the Lord led me to bring it up here but I now understand His reason.

marcmc

marc,

How do you converse with fellow believers without referencing scripture? I mean you are full of your own words which mean absolutely nothing next to scripture.

I take it that you are done now. Do you have any scripture to offer on Satan's functioning, character and activity?

by Elibeth on 2015/9/24 16:03:10

Julius,
Sorry for not getting back,...but I have been so called away ,lately.
Want too,and will,hopefully soon.

I have been keeping up with the conversation here,as I can.

I SOOO appreciate the Scriptures and enlightenment The Lord has given you here.

I do appreciate the others too.....

But ,marmcmc,...Am I understanding or,maybe not,...Are you questioning as to Satan being able to come above God in anything ?
Oh,Satan would love too ! But NOT POSSIBLE ever.

THE LORD,..HE IS GOD ( the Scriptures says),...LORD,MEANING,..HE RULES,..IS ALMIGHTY,...NONE MIGHTIER .

He is,VOICE,WORD,BREATH,...THERE IS NONE ABOVE HIM.
Satan CANNOT change God' WORD.We know that, God is The WORD.
We know that Jesus only spoke His Father God' Words.

Mt.24:35,And Jesus says"Heaven and earth shall pass away,but My Words shall NOT pass away.

1Pet.1:23,
Being born again,not of corruptable seed,but of incorruptible,by the Word of God,which Liveth and abide the forever.

Vs.25,......the Word of The Lord endureth FOREVER.

And we know,..
That God,..His Kingdom is the Kingdom of LIGHT.
That,Satan is of the kingdom of DARKNESS
And ,we know,that LIGHT overcomes DARKNESS.,...Always

PLEASE,..If I am not seeing what you are saying here,...Please I would BEG your forgiveness here,..and please correct me.

concerned,
elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth,

Sorry it took me so long to reply. It is hard to stop a train going full speed (rabbit trail), and it looks like it derailed so we can get back onto the subject of this thread.

You are absolutely correct and the scriptures teach correctly that Satan can never trump the activity of God.

Php 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

P

OK TMK what is plainly here?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

does that sound future to you?

Or how about Luke 10:17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

I don't know about you but that sounds pretty bad. Seems like somebody lost their job even if they kept the title.

marcmc

The indirect biblical evidence of Satan falling from heaven has been confirmed by many in the church (Holy Spirit illuminating and speaking the same thing to multitudes over many centuries).

The scriptures refer to the idea of Lucifer as the "light-bearer" from Isa. 14:12 who fell from heaven Isa. 14:12; Ezek. 28:16; Jude 6

Let's see some further description of Satan.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

Christianity has never really defined or clarified a doctrine of Satan. It is very ambiguous in many cases. Many have said, "Don't talk about Satan, because it gives him glory". That wisdom does not come from above (to be ignorant of your enemy). Any teaching about Satan (which there is much of in the Scriptures as I have illustrated in previous posts) is quickly dispensed with by those who regard the whole of the Biblical record as questionable. They regard Satan as a myth or a personification of evil that is simply metaphorical. In our generation today, we see the severity of sin and evil largely disregarded and at the same time Biblical teachings about Satan's personal agency in the lives of men are belittled and lessened.

But to your question about versus concerning the devil though they are few (it seems God did not deem an unemployed fallen angel was worth much air time)

Then you must have missed my posts. I posted many, many scriptures on Satan. At least that is what my Bible contains. Check your Bible, again.

TMK wrote:

"I agree that the battle was won at the cross.

What we are involved in now is a mop-up operation."

that is what is suppose to happen but take a look around. The Church is never going to make any ground until it admits its not what the Lord intended.

marc mc

Paul told the Church by implication not to be ignorant of the workings of the Devil.

2Co_2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Today, many are...and Satan has gotten an "advantage".

P

JFW,

Wrote " Brother Marc,
I have to be honest, in that while you come off sometimes as not only contentious but rude and dismissive of other saints in their understanding"

I'm a speaker. I get very little of my intentions across in writing. I write very poorly as my wife with here Masters in Education often points out. In person people around me spend all their time laughing.

marc mc

Lysa wrote,

"Who would the REAL VILLAIN be then?"

Its omnipresent on the earth, and its not God.

marc mc

I'm a speaker. I get very little of my intentions across in writing. I write very poorly as my wife with here Masters in Education often points out. In person people around me spend all their time laughing.

What are they laughing at?

I wish you would comment on the many scriptures I gave where Paul is warning the Church about Satan's devices, and enlightening the Church as to his operations and deceptions. But, if you don't feel comfortable writing or don't think you can get your idea across, I understand.

I am also a speaker, but a speaker ought to be able to write down that which he speaks.

His devices can be summed up in a single word "deceptions" because he has no real power. Powerful people use brute force not subtlety and deception. He is an imposter.

He desires to build strongholds of lies and deceptions in the minds of men.

This thread is about his biggest lie and biggest deception. And just what it is he is impersonating.

that's it deception. 1000 years in a pit and he is going to come out and do exactly what the bible says today that he will do. Deceive. that should answer all your Strong's cut and paste.

Now what is your answer to the question that radical Islam says the same thing you do about Satan?

marcmc

What is Islam saying?

I have no idea what they are saying and no idea if you understand what I am saying about Satan.

And what do you think I am saying about Satan?

P

Then what I agree with is Scriptural. I have no idea what Islam believes. I posted many scriptures afterwards and you took no exceptions with any of them.

You have not told anyone what Islam believes.

They believe what you believe. Do your homework.

marc mc

You made the accusation, so defend it. Otherwise, stop "huffing and puffing". The burden of proof is on you.

We know Satan has power:
Rev_13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, AND TO OVERCOME THEM: AND POWER WAS GIVEN HIM over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And we know who allows him to have this power:
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

There is a reason you do not reference scriptures on Satan.

Julius21 wrote; "You made the accusation, so defend it. Otherwise, stop "huffing and puffing". The burden of proof is on you.

We know Satan has power:
Rev_13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, AND TO OVERCOME THEM: AND POWER WAS GIVEN HIM over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And we know who allows him to have this power:
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

There is a reason you do not reference scriptures on Satan.

The burden of proof for what? That your doctrine is the same as radical Islam? No that is a act but the last thing I am going to do is post a bunch of quotes from Imans on here. Do your homework! If I was witnessing to a Muslim and he said "DO you believe in the Devil?" and I said yes and explained my doctrine and he said "That is the same as Islam" I think I might want to do a bit of investigating!

For the 10th time yes Satan has power in the earth. He has the power to deceive.

Your assuming that Jesus was saying that Satan was giving pilot authority. I don't believe that. The priest delivered up Jesus for crucifixion as the lamb. They had the greater sin that pilot who simply ok's it.

marc mc

You may the accusation and so you have the burden of proof. Your accusation does not create homework for me because you can't just make statements without proving some corroborating content for your belief. So, we are at a stalemate if you do not provide an explanation for your charge.

I think it is very difficult to converse with someone who does not know how to put their thoughts in writing and continues to misunderstand my thoughts. I am NOT saying that Satan gave Pilate any power at all. You do not understand the scriptures that I posted?

I think we need to move on marc, since you cannot explain your charges.

P

P

P

P

what I Psalms 24:1-3

I already said he works through deception/lies in order to get a foothold in men's lives and then build strongholds. I see this clearly in scripture. The fact that you do not does not mean negate the reality of it.

Are you saying that the powers of darkness no longer are able to possess individuals?

You are going to have to deal with this scripture. This was after the cross:

Act 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, AND THE EVIL SPIRITS WENT OUT OF THEM.

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: habited. ” Jeremiah 17:1-6

P

Galatians shows us the difference between works of law and the power of a promise. is will look narrowly upon him!

Some notes from a few years ago might clarify my positions a bit.

I have lived in the victory of a defeated devil and deliverance from the law of sin and death with joyfull hilarity.

I will see if I can find something on the devils inability to stop a single prophesy later.

marcmc

I tried to email you using your profile email. It was returned - not working. Please email me.

P

Hi Elizabeth,

I believe the Scriptures teach that God does not want us to learn about the consequences of sin by experiencing sin. He does not want us to become knowledgeable about right and wrong by experiencing wrong. That was not His purpose or intent for Adam. He was not setting Adam up or tricking Him. He wants us to trust in Him, and trusting in Him and being obedient to His word, causes us to suffer in the flesh. It is the way of the cross. The cross is onerous to the flesh, so we must deny self to obey the Lord and sow to the Spirit. The first Adam chose not to do this, but the second Adam (our example) chose the way of the cross.

Heb_5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

We learn obedience by and through the Cross...through suffering...just as our Lord did.