Warning: False Testimonies of Brother Yun, the "Heavenly Man"

Dear saints,I have received an open letter jointly signed by reputable Chinese church leaders (many of whom appeared in the CD, The Cross In China), concerning Brother Yun's false testimonies (whose real name is Zhengying Liu).The authenticity of this letter can be verified at http://www.jesusreturn.net where pictures of house church leaders signing the document are shown.The following is the translated script of the Open Letter (posted on the aforementioned website). The quality of the translation is poor, however, the main points of the letter is readily seen. The image of the original document with signatures and other references can be found on the website.I urge my fellow Christians in the West to exercise discernment on this matter and to warn other Christians who might be deceived by this not so "heavenly man". Agent001P.S. According to the newsletter of Christian Communication Inc. of Canada (http://www.ccican.org -- Chinese site), most of the money offerings received by the "Back to Jerusalem" movement associated with Brother Yun are unaccounted for and in light of the fact that churches overseas are uncritically accepting Yun's testimonies, the Chinese churches are prompted to appeal for spiritual discernment with an Open Letter.An Open Letter of Love Advice from Leaders & Co-workers of Chinese Churches To Worldwide Christian ChurchesBeing a member of churches in China (or Chinese churches) and of body of Christ, by inheriting the teaching and the spirit of Mr. Wang Mingdao, we feel responsible for announcing this love warning to all non-Chinese churches and believers: The churches in China grow up by suffering blood and tears. Even through poverties and persecutions, they still stand firm and not moved. After China were opened, great human resources and financial aids from overseas did help churches, but these abundant physical resources and money also made some ministers to fall into the snares. According to some objective investigation and evidences, we are able to carefully speak the truth in love: The Heavenly Man-- Liu Zhenying, who is supported by Xu Yongze of the Born again Group in Henan and pretty active in West right now, is a man who makes false testimony and deceives Western churches. He misuses the name of God; He knows the truth but still sins purposely. He is a black sheep (Hai qun zhi ma) in churches of China. We emphasize on unity in Christ. We also agree with the fact that Chinese people to spread Gospel to the whole world, including back to Jerusalem. But we can't just have these understandings and to ignore the essential character of spiritual life in cross. We oppose the way that Heavenly Man boasts and lies to strive for fame, wealth and status by making use of the name "suffering, unity & mission". We can't agree with Heavenly Man. He has no qualification to represent churches in China to speak. We sincerely give this advice to churches, organizations & believers overseas or within the country---to discern carefully and not to be misled by propaganda. We also exhort all groups and individuals who support Heavenly Man to take your courage and to turn from mistakes. We persuade Heavenly Man to stop the spiritual deception thoroughly and to apologize openly. Otherwise, it will be a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. We appeal to all believers & co-workers to intercede for thousands who has been deceived or misled, pray for God's healing falls upon the wounded. Ask the Lord to help them to learn warnings from this lesson, out of the disappointment and still keep their enthusiasm and love. Pray to the Lord to give them discernment and wisdom, and truly become the alert watchmen/intercessors, and finally to be a blessing to China.25 October 2004 signed: Allen Yuan, Mrs. Yuan (Liang Huizhen), Yuan Pinghu, Yuan Fule, Moses Xie Moshan, Mrs. Xie (Chen Ailan), Weng Bin.04 November 2004 signed: Samuel Lamb (Lin Xiangao), Chen Guancheng etc.

Edit: Upon further reflection I have deleted my comments here until more information can be gathered.In Christ,Ron

First off Agent001 has been with us here for quite some time and has been not one given to just casual conversation and would have quite a bit more knowledge in this area, a perusal back through the forum would bear this out.So lets hold off with the sharpness there, also can't totally blame you Neil for not being aware of this as it is certainly a pretty heavy accusation.My sense is to not let this go off the rails as it may take some time before the truth comes out and hopefully we would consider prayer that this indeed would be the result here. Selah.

Agent001 does speak the language. He is Chinese. Not that this alone would confirm the post. The 'lionising' (making a star of) Christians from one place in another almost always causes these kinds of strife.

I find it horriably telling that they don't actually cite any instances of the "Heavenly Man's" deceptions. They just broad brush him without actually naming any charges.

In what I have seen of this man yun, he speaks of god and the lord Jesus christ and points to him. I believe we here in america need to pray more read more of the word and follow as the lord leads. " TO THE LAW AND TO THE TESTIMONY: if they speak not according to this WORD, it is because there is no light in them. Isaih 8:20 If we must speak about someone lets speak to God about them the one who knows all and see's all.

I heard Brother Yun speak 2 weeks ago, and I was greatly disappointed. He talked of God's power to heal, but did not mention grace, atonement, redemption, sin, righteousness or repentance. I was sad that he then had an alter call, but with no clear message about what people were coming forward for. It's true that some of what he said may have been lost in the translation, but I still found it wholly disappointing.

I believe it’s no coincidence that Sam shared this with us here on SI. Thank you brother!This coming Friday I’ll be attending a 4-day-conference where Brother Yun will be one of the main speakers. I read his book a while ago and was very much blessed by it. It encouraged me in my walk with God and even if this man truly is a deceiver no-one can rob me from the spiritual blessing it has had upon my life. I, no matter what, thank Jesus for this!I just thought it would be a good thing to give you some more inside. I have a friend who is personally acquainted with Samuel Lamb. She is Chinese and is befriended with brother Lamb. She has spoken in “his” church in Guangzhou several times. Through her I came to know Samuel Lamb (not personally!). I read his biography “Bold as a Lamb”. I do recommend this biography to anyone here on SermonIndex. You will meet the Master through this servant! It’s a true blessing. But well…why am I telling this. Well, while reading this book about Brother Yun I wrote my Chinese friend about it and shared how it was touching my life. She quickly replied and warned me for this deception. Her arguments were however strictly “subjective”, no facts and really rather speculative. Either she told me she would ask Samuel Lamb to write something about it or she said that he already was writing something about it, I don’t remember. Anyways, brother Lamb wrote an article on him.Brother Lamb says in his article: “The Heavenly Man”…cannot be called “a heretic” because we haven’t discovered clear errors in his teaching…it is more appropriate to call him “a big con man” for he has deceived a lot of Christian churches, especially in Europe and the United States”.This was my main objection to the arguments my friend gave me, saying that brother Yun is part of a sect and cheats with money etc. They’re merely human arguments, they don’t have anything to do with the things he teaches and I haven’t received any clear evidence about him yet. I personally was blown away by his clear views on the “western church” and how he addresses it. Just awesome. But, my friends…I do consider Brother Lamb as my brother in Christ and this man is a true and sincere believer. Therefore I will be cautious and ask everyone to be like-minded, not only in this matter but in all our “reliance” on people. Let us not too quickly condemn either brother Yun or Brother Lamb and others, but may it be an incentive to focus our eyes solely on Jesus. God says: “Seek Me and live” (Amos 5:5). It doesn’t say: “Hear mister So-and-so preach and you shall live”. I thank God for godly preachers and men who encourage and stimulate me in my personal walk with Jesus Christ, but they cannot and may not become my “Holy Ghost”, so to speak. “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” (Psalm 118:8) Even if all preachers go astray and fall away from the truth I am able (and may God give me the grace) to stand firm, because Christ is my foundation. I have to think of Psalm 91:7 where it says: A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you.Who or what is your foundation? Your pastor? The sermons you hear here on SI? Your friends? Are you always waiting for words of God from others instead of reading the Word yourself and get one from God personally? Or is it Jesus only? Are you standing on the Rock? I don’t know if I’ll be attending the service in which he’ll be preaching. If you read this, the best thing you can do is pray! Let us not follow men, but Jesus… “Let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come--all are yours. And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.” (1 Cor 3:21-23)To give you some more inside on the conference I and William (_Disciple_) will be attending. Gary Wilkerson and Brother Andrew will be preaching there as well! Isn’t that awesome?! We’re really looking forward to it and desire to meet Christ since He alone is the main Speaker at the conference! May God work His works!“Do not quench the Spirit…test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thes 5:19,21)Your brother in Christ,Paul

Thanks Paul,Good perspective there. Will you promise us an update from the conference? Sounds like a wonderful realm of possibilities there...

Agent 001 wrote;I have received an open letter jointly signed by reputable Chinese church leaders (many of whom appeared in the CD, The Cross In China), concerning Brother Yun's false testimonies (whose real name is Zhengying Liu).Sam, I'm wondering if you could give us some more detail concerning this letter you received. How did you come to receive this letter and do you personally know the people who wrote it? More importantly, do the people who wrote it personally know Brother Yun?I honestly would like to know more about this man and the back to jerusalem ministry. I have not given any money to his ministry but I would like to support it if indeed it is worthy.Like DezCall, I have been spiritually blessed by Brother Yun's book but after some reflection on this subject I have to admit that my initial reaction to your post was to reject your warning simply because I have read the book and even passed it along to others and was selfishly afraid of looking bad before others by having been "duped" by a con-man. I apologize and ask your forgiveness and the Lord's.DezCall wrote;Who or what is your foundation? Your pastor? The sermons you hear here on SI? Your friends? Are you always waiting for words of God from others instead of reading the Word yourself and get one from God personally? Or is it Jesus only? Are you standing on the Rock?Thanks for this wonderful reminder Paul! The Lord has clearly been showing me lately how much need there is for each Christian to have a well of our own freely flowing in our own backyard, so to speak. When the crises come in our lives, we need our own anointing, we cannot stand on the anointing of others.In Christ,Ron

Have just returned from our Sunday evening meeting where one of our number has just returned from visiting 'in-laws' in China. He referred to the pressure the house church movement was coming under to 'register'. Some have done so an some have not; this is causing some frictions between the saints. It occured to me that some of the info now leaking into the west may be partly coloured by these tensions. Just a thought.

Yes, I have a friend that is about to go to China for atleast one year (maybe longer) and thats what they have been telling her as she is in preperation to go. The government wants the house churches to register. The down side of them registering is that the government tries to limit where they can evangelise and can have influence on who is the pastor and what is preached...

Hi all,I am just a small brother in Christ, who is ethnically Chinese and currently resides in Toronto, Ontario. I speak fluently in Mandarin and Cantonese. I do have some personal acquaintances who are Christians in the house churches in southern China. I did not receive the original letter, I apologize if I gave such an impression. It was posted on a newsletter from Christian Communication Inc. of Canada (http://www.ccican.org -- Chinese site). The ministry focus of this organization is ministry to house churches in China and also to Chinese immigrants, especially scholars, in North America. I will provide their contact here for verification: 3880 Midland Ave., Units 2-4, Scarborough, ON M1V 5K4 Tel.: (416) 297-6540 Fax: (416) 297-6675 Toll-free#: 1-888-909-CCIC Email: ccic@ccican.com The copy of the letter published on the CCI Canada Newsletter resembles the one on http://www.jesusreturn.net. The Chinese church leaders featured on that website have appeared on the DVD now well-known among Christians in the west - "The Cross -- Jesus in China". (Those who own the DVD can easily verify this).From my own perspective, the sufferings and ministry of Pastor Samuel Lamb (who also signed the letter renouncing the "heavenly man") are well known among Chinese Christians and many in the West. He was one of the few house church leaders in China that Billy Graham visited during his trip to China. In contrast, I have not heard of Brother Yun until I heard news about him through western Christian media in the last few years. (Quite extraordinary, because I have been following news on the Chinese churches for years) In fact, according to the newsletter of CCI of Canada (which has been involved in ministry in China for 15 years), they did not know about this "Brother Yun" (really Zhenying Liu) until they started to receive inquiries from some western pastors. It would seem to me that "Brother Yun" is only a phenom in the West.Whether you accept what I have said or not, I think the call to discernment is always appropriate. Beware of sensationalism (a problem that manifests itself in the western churches in many different ways). Be zealous, but also wise.May God bless his Church in China!P.S. I wish I had used a different title, something like, "Chinese House Church Leaders Raised Concerns about Brother Yun".

Yes, I have a friend that is about to go to China for atleast one year (maybe longer) and thats what they have been telling her as she is in preperation to go. The government wants the house churches to register.I heard a recent visitor from China, whose wife is Chinese, comment that the Chinese Communists had 'learned' from the Russian Communists. The Russians decided the 'free' spirits of the Churches were dangerous and resolved to destroy them. The Chinese also fear the 'free spirits' but have decided that 'control' is better than outright attempts to destroy. Wicked wisdom!

PreachParsly wrote:The government wants the house churches to register. So which side is which in this drama of brother Yun?

A related article --Evangelicals Now coverage, "China: leaders distance themselves from 'the heavenly man'":http://www.e-n.org.uk/2004-12/2938-China-leaders-distance-themselves-from-the-heavenly-man'.htm

Thanks Sam and to all here...Showing forth great patience with all of this.

Brother Yun spoke here in Dublin last month and I must concur with another post here the gospel was not preached, even allowing for the translation. The church sponsoring the event are deeply into prosperity and most other recent additions to the gospel.I had not read his book but my wife and daughters had been impressed with the story, mainly his sufferings of which his survival is a miracle.The evening began with his interpretor retelling a story of the dead being raised by another brother. The dead man was a high official within the commuinist party but as no names can be given this becomes an accept on face value issue. Brother Yun then told his story. What struck me was just how parellel it was to the stories of Peter and Paul, complete with the miraculus opening of the prison and also Pauls many stripes and beatings. I am loath to not believe the brother but must say in my Spirit I had grave misgivings.What concerned me more was the descriptions of how they intend to train young christians in the practice of Accupunture and eastern massage as this would allow them to "lay hands " on people without them knowing and thus propel them into the Kingdom. I can find no ressonance with this in scripture and in fact hold that Accupuncture and most eastern medical practises are deeply rooted in the occult.By the time we got to the "altar call" I was decidely concerned. The altar call was very unspecific in that they were calling on 1. the unsaved 2. the backslidden 3. anyone who wanted inner healing 4 physical healing 5 any one with a non specific need. I know the Lord can and does minister accross all these areas but one was left with the feeling that the intent was to get as many people on their feet as possible for the cameras. This was backed by the local pastor speaking of "thousands coming forward" when in fact the entire audience was around 1300.My final impression was that either the brother was a con or had become conned by the churches in the west and been hijacked by their lust for celebrity. I would love to have had a contingent of Chinese Brothers all confirming each other.Anyway I think I have said enough I merely relate what I saw and heard. Paul

It is sad if it is true about the prosperity gospel being preached. I first read about K.P. Yohannan and there my heart sang out for his faithfulness to speading the gospel. And so when I heard of the Back to Jerusalem ministry, it seemed similiar to the witness of KP Yohannan. With that said, what can be said of the "Back to Jerusalem Movement?I went to this page and found that there is a rebuttal to Sam's post of a particular webpage. Quote:The Heavenly Man – Still a Target for Persecution Many people have asked us for an update on Brother Yun and his family, and we continue to be amazed at the spiritual impact his book has on people all around the world. Numerous emails and letters continue to come in about how God touched their lives through his testimony, resulting in a deeper level of surrender to the purposes of Christ. Anyone who has read Yun’s story will know that persecution has been a close companion to Brother Yun since he first met Jesus as a 16-year-old boy. Over the years Yun learned the reality of carrying his cross in China. After he departed for the West in 1997, he found that persecution continued in his life, just in a different form. Instead of physical beatings and imprisonment, he found insidious attacks came to him in the form of slander, gossip and verbal attacks. Just a few of these were outlined in chapter 26 of his book, entitled, “A New Kind of Persecution.” In recent months the level of attack and accusation against Brother Yun has reached new levels of intensity. Letters and emails are coming in frequently, asking for clarification or a response after people have heard doubts raised about the integrity of Brother Yun, and subsequently about the Back to Jerusalem vision. We have been very hesitant to comment on these accusations, as we believe any kind of public debate on such matters does nothing to advance the kingdom of God. While Brother Yun has no personal interest in defending his own reputation, concerned friends all around the world feel that the time has come for us to answer the accusations leveled against Yun in recent months. The Biblical instruction, “Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil” (Romans 14:16) has prompted us to write this article. At centre-stage has been a 5-page article released a few months ago by a prominent house church leader in China. It is entitled, “The Heavenly Man – A Big Con Man of China” and is a strong attack on Yun’s integrity. The accusations seem to have spread around the world like wildfire via the internet. A website has even been set up, its aim apparently just to destroy Brother Yun’s reputation as much as it can.The accusations can be summarized in two main ways: 1. Brother Yun is a con man, stealing huge amounts of money from believers as he travels around the world preaching for Back to Jerusalem.2. Parts of Brother Yun’s story are false. To begin with it needs to be noted that the writer of these accusations admits he has never met Brother Yun. Since the article was published various Christians have visited him at his church in southern China, hoping to ask him about his accusations, but he has refused to speak to them about it. To answer these specific allegations, we have asked three men who know Brother Yun well for their reactions. Then, at the end, we also include a short statement from Brother Yun.   STATEMENT FROM GORDON HICKSON Co-ordinator of the Back to Jerusalem Foundation in the United Kingdom, on behalf of the entire Board of Trustees for the BTJ Foundation:I have been working closely with Brother Yun and Back to Jerusalem now for several years. During this time I have organized many dozens of meetings for Brother Yun throughout the United Kingdom. For those people who know Yun, and know how his meetings are organized, this accusation that he misuses finances would be totally laughable if it wasn’t so serious. The truth is that Brother Yun does not handle a cent of any money that comes in from his meetings anywhere in the world. This has always been the case. He never emphasises donations at all, and has never asked a single person for anything except their prayers. Our experience of Brother Yun in the UK, and other parts of Europe, has been nothing but exemplary. He has personally had a massive impact on the Church in the UK, both through his book and the many meetings he has held with a view to awakening the UK Church to their Missions calling and responsibility. We highly honour his integrity, humility, accountability, and financial transparency. He has no personal access to the finance generated from his meetings, which is all put at the disposal of the Back to Jerusalem vision. The Back to Jerusalem Foundation was set up as a registered charity (number 1103565) in the United Kingdom. Accordingly, BTJ operates according to UK law. We have a board of respected Christian leaders, and are constantly seeking to network with all the major missions agencies that are involved in China. The BTJ Foundation is totally accountable and our finances are audited annually. We are accountable to a board of trustees and all our activities and actions are conducted with integrity. The vast majority of funds end up being used back in China to print Bibles, books, operate training centers, support evangelists and missionaries, etc. This is done through various established mission agencies that have long standing relationships with the house churches of China. So far more than 30 different mission organizations, representing a wide variety of denominations and churches, have attended our Back to Jerusalem forums. There is another BTJ forum coming up in the UK on Monday, November 29. A time has been set aside (16:00 - 17:30) for Brother Yun to personally answer any questions anyone has about his testimony or ministry. If you are interested in attending, or if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Gordon Hickson BTJ Foundation UK Tel : +44 7713 688079 (cell)        Email : gordonhickson@aol.com   STATEMENT FROM PASTOR WALDEMAR SARDACZUK Honourable President of Aktionskommitee fur Verfolgte Christen (AVC) – Germany, Switzerland, Austria and France Brother Yun and his family have been living with us in Nidda, Germany for many years. We’ve got to know him and his wife very well. They are members of our church and are a great testimony in their walk with God. I met brother Yun in China many years ago. At that time I would have never thought it possible to meet him in Germany. However, God brought him out so he could be a blessing to the Church around the world. As with all men of God who are used by the Lord, Brother Yun has been the object of much slander, attack and jealousy.           I can shed some light on the daily life of Brother Yun and his family. They live here in our town in very moderate conditions. They live in a comparatively small apartment, which they rent. Neither he nor any of his family members drive or own a car. They are totally focused on ministering for the Lord, and have little concern for material things. His manner of life, his conduct, and his family are in accordance with the bible. We are deeply impressed and also appreciate brother Yun's reaction to all the lies, slanders and accusations told about him.           Brother Yun has been a great blessing and he is a servant of God who has opened our eyes to the situation of the Christians in China. He has always endeavoured to help the persecuted Christians in his country without any desire for personal gain or glory. Pastor Waldemar Sardaczuk   STATEMENT FROM PAUL HATTAWAY Author of ‘The Heavenly Man’ and ‘Back to Jerusalem’ booksI appreciate the opportunity to be asked by Back to Jerusalem to write a few words about Brother Yun.  I have read the recent attacks on Brother Yun and some of his coworkers with a measure of sadness. Parts of Yun’s story, especially his 74-day fast in prison in 1984 and his miraculous escape from prison in 1997, have been declared to be lies by some. Firstly, it should be noted that attacks and slanders of Christian leaders are nothing new. They were a feature of the lives of everyone God used greatly in the Bible, and have been a feature of countless servants of God since. Sadly, they are not new in China either. Recently, while researching for a new book, I read how the Nestorian Christians strongly attacked John of Montecorvino at Beijing in the year 1305. John had baptized 6,000 people in Beijing in the preceding years, but was called a “spy, magician, and deceiver of men” by the jealous Nestorians. John later commented, “If not for all the slanders I should have baptized more than 30,000.” As a researcher, I often find it instructive to listen to any conflicting testimony in order to have a more accurate understanding of what is true. The trouble with the present accusations against Brother Yun and others involved with Back to Jerusalem is that it isn’t testimony and it neglects positive evidence of reliable witnesses. The accusers were not part of these events they denounce as false. In fact, I soon discovered that many of Yun’s accusers have never met him; others have met him briefly years ago in China. When I was researching and writing Yun’s book, I determined not to include any testimony that wasn’t widely known and accepted among the Chinese believers in the area where it took place, in accordance with the Biblical principle, 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' In the case of Yun’s fast and escape from prison, I spoke on separate occasions to eye-witnesses of these events. Their stories were all identical, and after weighing up the evidence, it made a lot more sense to me that I should trust the testimony of godly men and women who were eyewitnesses of the event, rather than pay much attention to critics of the story who were not there and had no real knowledge of what happened. My family and I have come to know Brother Yun quite well over the years. We can state with absolute confidence that Yun is a godly man with a humble heart and has tremendous love and concern for everyone he meets. He always seeks the Lord on every matter and only wants to be an obedient servant of Jesus. The accusations against Brother Yun’s integrity are complete nonsense. The same holds for the accusations relating to the handling of Back to Jerusalem finances. Millions of people in the 10/40 Window are perishing without a Gospel witness. May God’s people have His glory as our focus, and the lost as our aim. Paul Hattaway STATEMENT BY EIVIND FROEN Mission leader and spokesman from Norway I have known Brother Yun since the time he left China. We have traveled and ministered together in many different countries around the world. I have seen the tremendous impact his ministry has made, especially in Europe. People are always spiritually blessed wherever he goes. Jesus said that we could tell if a person truly follows him by their fruit. The fruit of Brother Yun’s life and ministry are clearly obvious for all to see: hundreds of people introduced to Christ, thousands of Christians dedicated to following the Lord wholeheartedly, and a trail of churches all around the world that have experienced growth and blessing from the Lord after his visits. On a personal level I have seen how Brother Yun has faced many obstacles and much opposition in his ministry, yet he has been quick to forgive. His heart is one of reconciliation and love for people. He has a real ‘kingdom heart’ in that he is willing to suffer personal loss if it will benefit God’s kingdom. Such people are rare gems in the world today, and we should pray for him. Eivind Froen STATEMENT FROM BROTHER YUN Praise the Lord! I thank all the Christians who have prayed for my family and I, and who have expressed their concern for us. The Lord has been good to us and his mercies are new every morning. In the presence of the Lord I would like to say I hold absolutely nothing against the men of God who wrote the booklet about me, and I have completely forgiven them. In fact, the booklet did not reduce the deep respect I have in my heart towards these men. I know that one day we will embrace before our Father in Heaven and any misunderstanding will be forgotten as we worship the Lamb of God together. Let’s put aside all hindrances and march forward hand in hand for the sake of the kingdom of God! If anyone has any questions about my story, or any other enquiry, I am very willing to meet either publicly or privately and answer any questions people may have. Brother Yun        If you want more information on a regular basis, e.g. an email newsletter, please send us your details and send it to the following address: newsletter@backtojerusalem.com. If you feel that you are called to be an intercessor for the BTJ vision, please send us an email to prayer@backtojerusalem.com   What is the truth? Let us continue to search for it.In ChristJeff

Christians who tear each other apartNeilMy intention was not to tear Bro Yun apart but merely to report. A lot of many ministries is best left to the Lord as they who are not against us are with us. However when the issue of accupunture etc is stated as a spiritual way then we must cry halt. I wish the Bro well would still reccomend his book. I did say in my first post that he could well be being used by the west by others and I was impressed by the testimony of european brothers who are seeing him live in a simplicity.Paul

One point of clarification: The "Back to Jerusalem" vision originated in the 1940's and had since been revived among Christians in China in recent years. Many in the Chinese churches would agree with this vision though they are not necessarily associated with Brother Yun (Liu).While Brother Yun (Liu) had come to be identified with BTJ, it is important to understand that it is not hisvision, nor is he the founder of the movement. Even for those who had any doubts concerning Brother Yun (Liu) and associated organisations, few would doubt the vision of fulfilling the Great Commission by bringing the gospel all the way back to Jerusalem.I do think charges of Brother Yun (Liu) being a "big con man" seem too strong. There are also no definite proof of financial misdealings. However, it is uncertain how these funds are being funneled into China, and who are the beneficiaries of the donations. It seems to me quite probable that Brother Yun (Liu) and his supporters, in presenting his testimonies, might have given in to sensationalism and exaggeration, to say the least. The alleged claims of Brother Yun (Liu) representing 50 million plus Christians in China and that he represents up to four or five major groups of the house churches have been seriously challenged (see the link to Evangelical Now) (and I think that is why pastors such as Samuel Lamb, Allen Yuan, and Moses Xie are so concerned -- all of a sudden, this person unknown to them claims in foreign countries that he represents them). The fact is, Yun (Liu) is known only to be closely associated with the so-called "Born Again" group, in which some from the fundamental/evangelical wing of the house churches questioned their extremities. So the best he could claim is tens of thousands members from the "Born Again" group (mind you though, there are at least five separate factions within this group) -- this is still an impressive number, but "50 million+" is gross misrepresentation, the numbers don't tally up.Organizations involved in China ministry also questioned the actual number of believers being trained in China to be missionaries going out of the country as part of the Back to Jerusalem movement. (See report in Evangelical Now, statements made by Asian Outreach and OMF [formerly China Inland Mission founded by Hudson Taylor], all reputable East Asian missions organizations).The underlying issue here is our focus -- is it on Christ, or on a particular person? Why are we so given in to sensationalism? To be honest, there are many unknown Chinese Christians who have varying miraculous experiences like the ones told by Brother Yun (Liu) -- he just so happens to have a Christian media and audience who is ready to be dazzled. And the temptation is there for anyone who receives such a spotlight. A big difference between Watchman Nee and Brother Yun (Liu) is that Nee was well known and received by fellow Christians in China as a gifted expositor and writer long before being introduced to the western world. With Brother Yun (Liu)? He is virtually unknown to Chinese-speaking Christians like myself (perhaps except those within his circle) until we were inquired by others. Isn't that peculiar?

Br Sam wrote:The fact is, Yun (Liu) is known only to be closely associated with the so-called "Born Again" group, in which some from the fundamental/evangelical wing of the house churches questioned their extremities. I remember reading in the book on Br. Yun that he spoke of denominationalism creeping into the house church. He said at first the outside Christian groups would only give Bibles. But then soon afterwards they began to receive denominational literature along with the Bible. He also spoke of differences that arose when different churches in China sought to come together to bring unity among the churches. Maybe the miracles are sensational to us and unbelief is there. Yet the Back to Jerusalem organisation has not sought to distance themselves from Br. Yun. Also I remember K. P. Yohanan having difficulties with the American churches who sought to give to that ministry. The American church wanted to put their own people on the board of Gospel for Asia so that they could monitor how the money was being spent. K.P. regected this pursuit by the American church to oversee this aspect of the ministry. In regards to Watchman Nee, communism was a long way off when he started his ministry. Not to be known by the majority of the church that exists in China today would not surprise me based on what little I know about the persecution of those who baptize people in the middle of the night. I for one cannot dispute for or against Br. Yun. Nor will I stand against one who lives his life for Christ. If evidence should arise that points to this man glorifying himself and not Jesus, then I would stand against him. In ChristJeff

Another thought:Trying to remember Br. Yun testimony, I believe he is in his late 40's or early 50's. The majority of his christian life has been spent in prison or running from those who sought to imprison him. I would have to read again his testimony, but I believe he did not even have a bible during some of his years spent in prison. He did not have the time to become a theologian as we seek after today as signs of someone to be trusted. Without the persecution that came in China, he now resides in another secular region of the world. I pray that God continues to call him out of this world. I pray that he not be tempted by the ways of this world. I pray that God gives him the discernment to recognize the effects of the prosperity gospel as Brother Paul has testified of. In ChristJeff

Greg:On that open letter from "8 Chinese Church Leaders" (How would you understand this phrase?) you have posted (which rallies for Brother Yun (Liu)), in contrast to the one that I have posted (which raises doubts about him):I have very little knowledge of these "Chinese church leaders," but of those I recognize:- Bao De Ning, is really the Chinese name of an American, not Chinese. He pastors a church in Hong Kong, not China.- Deng Xin Zhe, is a pastor of a local Chinese congregation in Hamburg, Germany, not China.Moreover, a web search of "Europe Gospel Centre" in English, traditional Chinese, and simplified Chinese, yielded nothing. I have no idea what this organisation is.Finally, I note that the document was signed in Paris, France. Most likely, the signatories are "Chinese church leaders" in the sense of people involved in Chinese ministry in the overseas.Such a statement could hardly compare to the ones from Samuel Lamb, Allen Yuan, Moses Xie, etc. (try a web search for these names) who raised concerns about the "heavenly man".I am quite disappointed by the use of the ambiguous line, "An open letter from 8 Chinese Church Leaders to the body of Christ within China and overseas". While it is not a lie, it gives the false impression that it came from within China from house church leaders who do not share the views of Lamb, Xie, Yuan, etc.I don't like all this smell of politics and propaganda. *sigh*May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Thanks greg; Been having differnt looks at this, and your post and input is helpful. Bro. Raven

greetings all.as with all things there are two sides?i also have had the privelage of seeing this brother in person in australia,i dont think you can say just because a person speaks or spoke at a "prosperity teaching church" or one that has leanings that way, that a person was into it aswel.what more of a slap in the face to such a money hungry, self satisfied, complacent bunch of people than to hear from a person who has a testimony such as his.the suffering & the trust?.most might still just go, oh well that was good bring on the next preacher, this one challenged my walk to much.or would it be worth it just for one person to get a flame firing in there heart to belive the same God who moved in acts still moves today?what if richard wurmbrand preached in a so called "propsperity church" would that be frowned upon?it really stirs me how sometimes we place a brush & tar people. cause they happened to be at a certain place?. if i can ill get the copy of that sermon, but from what i remember he was Christ glorifying, exalting & thats all he spoke about how great is the Lord.maybe one day we can say i bear in my body the marks of the Lord jesus Christ? this has been edited as i had another thought to share i forgot, well really an add oni agree he could have been hijacked by western churches, more than him decieving people,it was last year when i heard him, if anything i wouldnt think he would be the one calling the "altar call" was he?i know over here he only asked for people who were serious about preaching the gospel, & going out to dedicate to the call of God for there life.i do agree if accupunture is to do with this thats just weird, not right at all.as paul would say "yun who has bewitched you"if thats the case.im sorry to sound as if im having a go at you paulus, but can the same things that happened with peter & paul happen today?

FormidableI prefer if I am off line or out of order for someone to care enough to have a go so I take your words as such.My main point was not that Bro Yun was preaching for a Church who held to Prosperity lines, in fact I wnet hoping to hear him take the opposite stance and thereby bring a challenge to many.You are correct in that he did not do the entire of the "altar call" but what was missing most was that there was throughout the entire evening no reference to the eternal lost state of unredeemed man, sin, the Blood of Christ, The redemptive work of the cross, repentance, leaving the world. What was portrayed was the sufferings of this brother, but no reference to the sufferings of Jesus. Our beloved Christ was portrayed only as the provider of miracles and not as the one to whom all Glory is due.Paul

On another note:God has done and is still doing great things in China, some of which were told by Brother Yun (I believe many of the experiences are true despite the concerns raised), and much more that we would only hear when we appear with Christ in glory. Please continue to pray and support for this country and God's work there. China has more than one-fifth of the world's population, most of whom do not know salvation!Bear in mind that Satan is not in slumber in China as well. Within the church, problems of heresy, extremities, sectarianism, human weaknesses etc. are rampant. Also remember, while Christianity is experiencing phenomenal growth in China, other cults and religions are growing at an even faster pace in China. Be informed about the situation in China. (Request newsletters from China ministries. Learn about what the "Three-Self Patriotic Movement" is about. Learn about the diversity of experiences and challenges in different region -- the issues facing those in the province of Fujian and Henan, for instance, are totally different).Be wise in money matters. The best is to consult with organizations that have a long history in supporting ministry in China.Finally, I apologize for the thread title (I don't know how to correct it), I feel that it is too strong and counter-productive -- it forces people to take sides rather than reflect on the wider issues.For those who were stirred up by the testimonies related in Brother Yun's book to care for the needs of the brethren in China, continue to do so. Even though I have some lingering doubts about some of the claims, God can nonetheless draw straight lines with a crooked stick.May all glory be to God himself and him alone.

http://www.asiaharvest.org/pages/news050705OpenLetterBrotherYun.html

"If anyone has any questions about my story, or any other enquiry, I am very willing to meet either publicly or privately and answer any questions people may have"Brother Yun I would like to speak with Brother Yun either publicly or privately. Any idea how I could reach him? Hamish.

germanJoyJust popping inJoined: 2005/9/6Posts: 2Online! Be a LOVER and SUPPORTER of fellow brethren not an ACCUSER All of us in the body of Christ today are facing an HOUR of test. The devil's aim is to make us fail by using the believers in destroying one another. At times like these, the only way out of the enemy's control is to FOCUS on Jesus Christ. Obviously, there are and will be Judas Iscariots in our midsts. However, let us be like Christ in dealing with it. For Jesus Himself did not allow Peter and/or any disciples (including us) to strike back or hurt Judas and those like him in any way. To make the picture complete, Jesus laid His life for His accusers and His followers did the same thing so that the message of the love of Christ be known to the whole world.The reactions of Brother Yun towards his accusers can be likened to Christ. But I personally question the integrity of Yun's accusers who claimed to be discerning by warning us of a "nobody", radical christian and a broken man whose purpose is to bring the GOSPEL of Christ to the unreached nations even risking his own life for it.If you are a christian who is uncertain of the heavenly man story, settle it once and for all by pointing back to yourself with this question: "If I were to stand up for JESUS CHRIST in a country where His gospel is forbidden, will I be willing to suffer even lay my life for it just as He suffered and laid His life for me??" If so, you will get to see the truthfulness of the heavenly man story for you will also see yourself in it. If not, be encouraged by the life of Bro. Yun and millions of Christians who suffered for their faith.Allow me to share this article I wrote yesterday which I originally wanted to print in this section:Re: Accusers of Brother Yun It is very sad to see believers accusing fellow christians when it is told that the accuser of the brethren is the devil.We should refrain from judging the characters or the hearts of any believers for only Christ knows who really belongs to Him. Besides, isn't it that the bible teaches us not to judge before the time? We should only judge false teachings in order to keep ourselves from being deceived by false teachers and to make us able to abide in Christ who leads us to the truth. Church, there are main teachings which we as believers should unite where no compromise is allowed, namely: deity of Christ, virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ, Second Coming of Christ, salvation by grace, and Trinity. The other minor issues are pardonable and can vary as they don't shake the foundation of our faith.As for Brother Yun's story, how can anyone point a finger at him when in fact Bro. Yun is one of the few christians in the world today who is willing to lay his life for the gospel of Jesus Christ? Who among the preachers of today are willing to do this? I challenge every accuser of Bro. Yun to stand up and be willing to be beheaded for Christ. If you as his accuser are willing then you will together with Bro. Yun bring the glory of Christ to the whole world. If not, then your words and actions will fade away.Any christian who has a heart to lay his life for the gospel will embrace someone like Bro. Yun.In Christ I live and to self I am dead.germanJoy "Therefore do not go on passing judgement before the time but WAIT until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come from God."The one who examines us (including Bro. Yun and his accusers) is the Lord, why judge then? 1 Cor. 4:4-5, church? 2005/9/7 5:35 FlatThreaded Oldest FirstNewest First Select a Forum Welcome Section ---------------- Announcements Welcome & Intro SermonIndex Ministry ---------------- SermonIndex Promotion About SermonIndex SI Moderators Only SermonIndex Community ---------------- Lounge Scriptures and Doctrine Revival Praying and History Book Reviews/Recom. Church History Miracles that follow the plow Devotionals News and Current Events Speakers on SermonIndex ---------------- A.W. Tozer David Wilkerson Leonard Ravenhill T. Austin-Sparks Other Speakers Help and Support ---------------- SermonIndex Support

Paul Hattaway has also written a lengthy article about the "Eastern Lightning" movement in China. He comes highly recommented by an American working for the LORD in China. This American has been in our church and is well thought of. Last night I talked with a young man - a professional - who the LORD used to bring a Chinese communist to Himself. I asked about Eastern Lightning and yes, it is serious, something one needs to be so very careful about less you become entangled in it.Just thought I would share this....ginnyrose

Hi ginnyrose,I am not familiar with the "eastern lightening" movement. I have never heard of this until now. Can you or someone else give a brief description or a link to some information.Thanks

Here is a link:http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/China-LighteningfromtheEast.htmPaul Hattaway wrote the article. If you do a search on Alta-vista using the terms "Eastern Lightning" and Paul Hattaway you should be able to find it as well. Be prepared to read a while. It is very sobering....ginnyrose

Thankyou Sister ginnyrose,After reading about the Back to Jerusalem movement and "The Heavenly Man," I thought that China would become a light in this world. Now I see that Satan is working harder than ever.It is a sad morning.In ChristJeff

Jeff, we can easily see how the Enemy is working so desperately hard to destroy Believers. I, too, thought as you did about the Chinese church. I reckon there is no group of believers or individuals immune from the enemy's attack. There is one important lesson one gets when you read the article on the Eastern Lightening, the enticements they use: money! Did you catch that? Now let us ask ourselves a question: how often does the love of money entice us and get us into such a grip from which we cannot escape without suffering some loss? And what do we call this?Something to think about, IMHO. What do you think?ginnyrose

Hi All...New here and haven't had a chance to introduce myself. I just saw this thread and had to jump in. My mentor/discipler is a missionary to China for Campus Crusade. I read The Heavenly Man a few months ago and asked him about it. I was amazed by the book of Acts type stuff that was going on over there. My mentor basically told me that while much of what Yun wrote about was indeed true...it is still occurring. However, he also said that since Yun has come to the west he has been decieved and fallen into western materialism. He suggested and I concur that we pray that Mr. Yun repents of his wordliness and takes back up the mantle of simplicity and surrender. In Christ Alone,Conquerorginnyrose wrote:Jeff, we can easily see how the Enemy is working so desperately hard to destroy Believers. I, too, thought as you did about the Chinese church. I reckon there is no group of believers or individuals immune from the enemy's attack. There is one important lesson one gets when you read the article on the Eastern Lightening, the enticements they use: money! Did you catch that? Now let us ask ourselves a question: how often does the love of money entice us and get us into such a grip from which we cannot escape without suffering some loss? And what do we call this?Something to think about, IMHO. What do you think?ginnyrose

Did you catch that? Now let us ask ourselves a question: how often does the love of money entice us and get us into such a grip from which we cannot escape without suffering some loss? And what do we call this?The seduction of the harlot.In ChristJeff

Thank you all! As an ethnographer and missionary living in China, I would like to help you all understand the cultural issues that may be influencing some of our opinions about Brother Yun and those Chinese brothers who have criticized him.

First – a confession: I, as an American, have developed an extremely subtle but very offensive cultural practice. I can be extremely simple and humble in both words and personal presence, and yet somehow convey a “know-it-all” attitude. We Americans are so famous for this that any of us who does not acknowledge it must be either blind or completely isolated from the views of people from nearly every other country in the world. I have lashed myself for this, and attempted to repent, but still people sometimes my dear friends from Central Asia come up to me after an inspiring ministry presentation and kindly let me know that I have committed the same sin once again.

With that backdrop, and with the knowledge the many of my dear Chinese brothers may be offended, I would like to share a similar issue that many have noticed about the Chinese people. They are SO simple and kind and lovable and humble and sweet in person, and yet at the same time they sometimes convey a certain braggadocio and at times, without intending or even realizing, they drop personal pronouns of “I” and “we” onto situations that are much larger than their own personal involvement has experienced. Their stories are BIG and sometimes the numbers they share are also BIG, and yes, exaggerated. I must emphasize the subtlety of this. I have never met a Chinese believer, or even any Chinese person who I would characterize as a braggart or proud person.

Of the 14 house church networks that I am familiar with, not a single one of them has escaped this deeply engrained cultural trait. Five years ago I was told that over 50,000 BTJ missionaries were ready to go from eastern China to Northwest China for ministry to Muslims where I work. After persistent requests I have yet to receive one who is willing to come to the city in which I work, which is a prefecture capital and the center of the ethic group with whom I work.

(If you are with a BTJ organization and wish to respond, please tell me who I can contact for more details!)

So is the BTJ movement all talk and no action? No, but we must understand that the new generation of believers in China is just that – new. In the zeal of their youth and the largess of their culture, these numbers have been reported.

Having made my point, and illustrated it with a concrete example, I want to comment specifically on Brother Yun. I do not doubt his testimony or the facts at all. Those who are eyewitnesses have that right, but I do not, nor do I desire to. I would tend to think that the criticisms about him have come from jealously and a general cringing that some may feel regarding ministries that involve many miracles.

On the other hand, I understand those who are somewhat put off by the manner of presentation in “The Heavenly Man”. It grates against western culture in the very same way that western pompousness grates against eastern cultures. In the eastern context it may be fine to mention the length of a fast that I did and to repeat the number so many times in the context of sharing my testimony, but to some western ears it can sound, as one person as put it “too…”. I understand why some have put the book down half way.

Of course some Chinese believers have also been offended at the manner of presentation, just as I have been offended at the pride of my own culture that seems so subtle to me, but so obvious to those of other cultures. The heart is truly exceeding deceitful, and I hope that we all, as Christians, can take steps to maturity, moving beyond our cultural and personal faults, and having patience with others as they seek to do so also.

(for security reasons, name withheld)

Ps – I have more to share about new developments in the relationships between the house fellowships and the three self fellowships, but I will save that for another time.

Well [i]Thank you[/i] Northeast and a warm welcome to SI.

What a great unmasking of truth, those subtleties of our undoing. And how true the exaggerations especially us Americans, steeped in the big fish story ... How much culture affects us, even the regenerate being pulled and tugged, practically compelled to offer up an uneducated opinion on everything under the sun. The tendency to speak over our heads, beyond our understanding.

Find it all very bothersome, this compelling to 'paint' things or as your mention: "Too" ...
Strange how being 'somewhat dishonest' has become so acceptable even amongst the Brethren. To put ones finger on it is to cause a yelp and cry, the reflexive defending, rarely a repenting.

Your forthcoming and honesty is very endearing.

Welcome!

Northeast,

Interesting piece...

Now I have a question: you wrote:

I can be extremely simple and humble in both words and personal presence, and yet somehow convey a “know-it-all” attitude. We Americans are so famous for this

and yet at the same time they sometimes convey a certain braggadocio and at times, without intending or even realizing, they drop personal pronouns of “I” and “we” onto situations that are much larger than their own personal involvement has experienced. Their stories are BIG and sometimes the numbers they share are also BIG, and yes, exaggerated.

Do I undertstand you to say both Americans and Chinese brag but cannot stand it when the other does? But neither one recognizes it in themselves?

ginnyrose

Sir, I have another question for you:
Recently we met a young Chinese couple (University Students)who are seriously considering the claims of Christianity but have not made the decision yet to follow Jesus (that I know of). How can a person best relate to them? Presently the wife speaks English very poorly and communication is difficult.

ginnyrose

Northeast...

Thankyou for your word and testimony...how many ways do we fall short of what it means to love as Jesus loves. As time goes on, and as we grow in understanding, we only become more lost in the hoplessness of our carnal minds. Only by the Spirit can we hope to overcome that which divides us.

I hope that you will be given the time to share with us more of your life in China.

God Bless
Jeff

sorry I accidently posted twice.

Sorry I haven't seen this thread until now.

Earlier this year I traveled to china with the intent of helping the BTJ movment. And I must say I agree with Northeasts post.

It was interesting, that while I was in China, I met a lot of Americans at a particular hotel and of course alot of chinese. The same trait stood out amoung both peoples. They both seemed to have a cultural arrogance towards all other cultures. Please note that this is a generalisation.
Also it was like honesty just didn't seem very valuble there.
But in saying that, I am australian and I'm sure I have as many cultural blind spots as anyone else.

But after I left china I met with BTJ in singapore for a few days, where I went to prayer meetings, bible studies and met with various leaders, within the organisation. Most of whom speak mandarin, travel in and out of China regularly and know Brother Yun Personally.

From the time I spent with them, I have absoloutly no reason to ever suspect that they were above reproach.
But rather the opposite, it was a "road to emmaeus" time where our hearts just seemed to burn as we talked about the Lord and what he was doing in our lives.
When I met with the family of one brother, who looks after brother Yun when He is in Singapore, I got speaking to his son, who was a little younger than me. (I'm 20) He was telling me how on one occasion he had to share a room with Brother Yun. He woke up in the middle of the night cause he heard some noise, and found brother Yun prostrate on the floor in prayer.

I also had the privalige to meet with a brother who had just spent 3 months "underground" training young missionaries who were ready to go out. From the numbers that I heard while there (earlly in the year) 50,000 seems to be an incredible exageration. But further more I had the privalige of praying with this brother and others for these young missionaries as they were just about to try and cross the border out of china. It was a blessed time.

I know this is second-hand.

But I truly have no reason to doubt my brothers in Singapore. Rather I treasure the time I spent with them.

Anway this is just what I have experienced personally.

AJ

I have recently read "The Heavenly Man" and I am greatly challenged.
This may seem a bit outdated, but I felt it necessary to testify that I have been encouraged.
I tried the two links provided in the first post and I saw that only the Chinese one seems to open and I dont read Mandarin, or for that matter I do not read Cantonese too :-) Or it could have been Japanese or Burmese, which too, I do not read :-))

I read the book and I felt that:-
1. the focus has been genuinly toward the Lord Jesus Christ. Well you cant help it if miracles did happen.
2. Brother Yun's discipline to put to memory the word of God, did put him in good stead. Has challenged me to read God' word, how else will I be counted prepared to go where they do not allow me to have the bible.
3. He was able to see God's hand, His discipline and His instruction in different situations. Often walking with the Lord we oursleves can testify that God does speak to us through incidents in our life, while the onlookers do not even realize it. all they see is probably one missing a bus or forgeting something.
4. He has got revelation on a lot of things (i.e. I was able to see a few of these, and probably am blind to a lot more.) - about the body of Christ, that we need to drink of the Spirit and not the letter of the 'doctrine', our attitude to our leaders and those who govern us, are some of the things which I found remarkable, since I have not seen these across many.

I have been challenged.
I guess some are unable to digest this since it is happening in our times. If this was written of someone, say a century back, it might have been easy for some to take it.
Or maybe it seemed too dramatic. I found the washing of the feet a bit melodramatic, but that may be my doctrinal bias.
I like to think of it as what Richard Wumbrand used to say, "in extraordinary times, extraordinary things happen."

I need to focus on that log in my own eye. For on the day of the Lord all that is hidden will be exposed ... why speculate?

Php 4:8 Finally, my brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are right, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue and if there is any praise, think on these things.

In His mercy and by His grace, may we also be among those who were COUNTED worthy.
Worthy is the Lamb! now and forever.

Samuel Lamb is not a communist plant...I discerned carefully spoken words of love not communistic words of discord.

I think your post stinks unless you have FIRST HAND knowledge you wish to share, and not just URL's of a dubious nature.

if that was true we would still be arguing over scriptures authenticity

by the way you can piece this together...and you can research the flamboyancy of this guy and the corruption of filthy lucre as described in Timothy

I got a paperback of “The Heavenly Man” from one of the students. It claims to be a true account and is endorsed by Christian Solidarity International. It is best seller and widely publicised and makes a great deal of money. This book is an unending series of sensational miraculous healings, dramatic visions, exorcisms by the laying on of hands, and unbelievable escapes. Brother Yun claims to have voluntarily fasted for 74 days taking no food or water, page 124. He claims to have leapt over an 8 feet high prison wall with glass on the top and cleared a 10 foot wide septic tank - all in one bound, page 65. Then he runs through the night, climbs two mountains and crosses a river and returnes to the church where he was arrested which is praying for him! Both his legs were broken during an escape attempt, page 242. The guards crippled him permanently so that he needed to be carried by Brother Xu, page 244. But he was able to walk out of Zhengzhou Maximum Security Prison as if invisible to all the guards and passed through a series of the iron gates as the guards opened them, crossed the yard passing the guards, and “stroll through the main gate of the prison”, which happened to be open, page 257. In page 75, the insane brother of the Communist Party Secretary cuts off the head of his 80 year old mother. This tragic incident is interpreted as being the judgement of God on the Secretary’s family for persecuting the Christians. Then “the entire village became Christians and received baptism”. I took a group of students to hear Brother Xu, when he spoke in the Chinese Church. It was a great mistake and I believe did them harm. I could not hear most of what he said but they told me afterwards that what he claimed to have happened was impossible. They told me that he was making it all up to impress people.

Hi everyone,

DoulosQuinn,

I copied a small portion of your post above and entered it into a search. The only result that came up was an entry on another website that appeares to be exactly what you qouted above in its entirety?

Did you cut and paste this from another site? What is the source of the information here and are these claims being made taken from the book?

Thank you.

they told me afterwards that what he claimed to have happened was impossible. They told me that he was making it all up to impress people.

In answer:

I put it quotes cause it was a quote the page by page description that is verifiable.

(people who want me to "back it up" go read the book yourself! I did, that's why I quoted the man that did the footwork, cause I did not want to read it again)

I was saved out of a Meth addiction...I have seen demons, and the unstoppable hand of GOD....but I am not so blind to believe in Benny Hinn's lying prophesies...or some of this mans fantasy.

Firstly, now I am not sure if I should have revived this post again. Instead of reviving oursleves, I guess the debate on the integrity of a third person, who is not even present, has been revived :-) Seems revival is happening, but not as we expected. :-))

My earlier post has been just to share the things that has encouraged me when I read the book. And I see that I have been encouraged in the way of discipleship and loving and depending on the Lord more earnestly. Hence I testified to that and shared those points that has encoraged me so that others too can be encouraged.
But I guess not all have been encouraged that way.
So maybe just leave it at that !?
Nothing that Brother Yun has spoken off is impossible with God. I guess we all agree to that. So assuming He was exagerating ... here that would mean, saying things that God could have done but did not do. In which case, God will take care of that in HIS time. But either way, why should it distress us?
Will it end up making us trust God more whole heartdly!? Will it make us believe that God can do the impossible!? how am I being deceived?
Jesus still remains my Lord, He is still in control.
Well that I guess brings me to the last possibility (i could not think of anything else) that I would be cheated of my money. The money that God has given me, might go into the wrong hands!! I guess here is where, i will need to give based on God's prompting and not based on somebodies testimony or pleading. Something I need the Lord to teach me. If this is my desire, then cant I trust God to lead me in this regard. but inspite of this if He allows me to be cheated, there should be a learning there or as in Corinthians, have the heart that says let it be.
So my dear brethren, let us encourage one another and let even our correction and strong words be so soaked in love and patience and humility ... after all if we endure till the end, we are going to spend eternity together :-)