The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

Hi All
In a previous post I posted something I didnt think much about before and this came to my mind.

Firstly Let Me Say The Great Falling Away Is Going to happen and secondly im using arbitrary Maths to bring my point across.However I have been generous with my figures.

According to wiki their are about 2.2billion Christians on the planet(Who say they are).Out of 7billion On The Earth
If lets say only 70% of that 2.2 are actually Christians that would make it 1.5 billion.
Again if the falling away comes from that section of real believers(which is arbitrarily 1.5billion)
If for instance the great falling away from that 1.5billion is 70% that means that 1 billion Christians will fall away.
Which as precentage of the worlds population is just 14%.
(althought my figures are estimates Ive been very generous with my perecentages the figure is more likely to be much smaller)

In light of this can the great falling away be from the church? or is it falling away from Godly restraints in the world or is it both?
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"
Its a little difficult to get my point across by posting so I hope you can understand that all Im saying if the falling away is from the church its going to be so small as not to qualify as great

Yours Staff

staff wrote:
The Great "Falling Away".The Maths doesnt Work!!

In light of this can the great falling away be from the church? or is it falling away from Godly restraints in the world or is it both?
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"

KJV: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thess 2:3

Your numbers do add up because you are using your human mind and human understanding to try to understand the vastness of who GOD says is a believer and a Christian. I surely can't and won't step up to that judgment seat.

But anyway, back to your question.... my opinion is that it would be a spiritual act of rebellion against God and if that includes church, then it would include church. Just as Job’s wife told him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” But how many Believers will respond, ""You speak as one of the foolish person would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

Staff, you are correct about one thing because the Bible is correct!! The "falling away” is coming and THEN the man of sin will be revealed and Believers need to walk closer to Him than they’ve ever walked.

God bless,
Lisa

How do non-Christians "fall away?"

They are already "away."

I'll do you one better.

Thomas Ice argues -- quite recently and in response to some valid exegetical/linguistic arguments against a pre-trib rapture -- that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "apostasia" or "falling away" actually means "departure" and refers to the rapture itself. He does this because it absolutely forces a rapture-then-revelation-of-man-of-sin timeline to the pre-trib rapture argument.

This argument is not well known until Piper's influential voice came out publicly in support of a post-trib view of things. Ice felt like he had to respond because Piper is just that influential among Baptists in particular and evangelicals more generally. There is a genuine battle of ideas and biblical interpretation happening among our brethren, and it is not a bad thing. But, personally, the argument Ice makes is novel; it is not one that has been widely made before and no one among the popular voices of the different eschatology camps took it up until Piper spoke as a post-tribber. Now, some of the pre-trib camp are looking at each other and nodding as if they'd always thought "apostasia" in 2 Thess. 2:3 means "departure" (i.e., as an inexplicably used synonym for "harpazo" or "catching away") instead of "falling away".

It reminds me of the argument that the close of canon was the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10. When Pentecostalism was making some movement across the land by the 1950s, certain of our brethren were so dead set against it but they had no single verse that once and for all put an end to the debate about spiritual gifts (especially, and at that time almost exclusively, tongues). In 1951, possibly for the first time anywhere in print, W.E. Vine (he of the Expository Dictionary) printed a commentary on 1 Corinthians that interpreted "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13:10 as being the close of the Scriptural canon. Others before him may have believed it, but the record of their writings seemingly does not support an earlier history of this as a serious thought. By 1963, a handful of seminary professors latched onto the idea, and a serious dissertation followed in 1967 by a man named Robert Gromacki. By the early 1970s, the idea that "perfect" meant the completion of canon was virtually canon itself in the Baptist seminaries in particular. Thomas Ice, it seems to me, is trying really hard to replicate this phenomenon with his "apostasia" = "rapture" view of 2 Thess. 2:3.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary on this passage (Julius you should like this):
---------------------
"In these words the apostle confutes the error against which he had cautioned them, and gives the reasons why they should not expect the coming of Christ as just at hand. There were several events previous to the second coming of Christ; in particular, he tells them there would be,

I. A general apostasy, there would come a falling away first, v. 3. By this apostasy we are not to understand a defection in the state, or from civil government, but in spiritual or religious matters, from sound doctrine, instituted worship and church government, and a holy life. The apostle speaks of some very great apostasy, not only of some converted Jews or Gentiles, but such as should be very general, though gradual, and should give occasion to the revelation of rise of antichrist, that man of sin. This, he says (v. 5), he had told them of when he was with them, with design, no doubt, that they should not take offence nor be stumbled at it. And let us observe that no sooner was Christianity planted and rooted in the world than there began to be a defection in the Christian church. It was so in the Old-Testament church; presently after any considerable advance made in religion there followed a defection: soon after the promise there was revolting; for example, soon after men began to call upon the name of the Lord all flesh corrupted their way,-soon after the covenant with Noah the Babel-builders bade defiance to heaven,-soon after the covenant with Abraham his seed degenerated in Egypt,-soon after the Israelites were planted in Canaan, when the first generation was worn off, they forsook God and served Baal,-soon after God's covenant with David his seed revolted, and served other gods,-soon after the return out of captivity there was a general decay of piety, as appears by the story of Ezra and Nehemiah; and therefore it was no strange thing that after the planting of Christianity there should come a falling away.
II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (v. 3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (v. 8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin: here he seems to speak of his rise, which should be occasioned by the general apostasy he had mentioned, and to intimate that all sorts of false doctrines and corruptions should centre in him. Great disputes have been as to who or what is intended by this man of sin and son of perdition: and, if it be not certain that the papal power and tyranny are principally or only intended, yet this is plain, What is here said does very exactly agree thereto. For observe,
1. The names of this person, or rather the state and power here spoken of. He is called the man of sin, to denote his egregious wickedness; not only is he addicted to, and practises, wickedness himself, but he also promotes, countenances, and commands sin and wickedness in others; and he is the son of perdition, because he himself is devoted to certain destruction, and is the instrument of destroying many others both in soul and body. These names may properly be applied, for these reasons, to the papal state; and thereto agree also,
2. The characters here given, v. 4.
(1.) That he opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped; and thus have the bishops of Rome not only opposed God's authority, and that of the civil magistrates, who are called gods, but have exalted themselves above God and earthly governors, in demanding greater regard to their commands than to the commands of God or the magistrate.
(2.) As God, he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now, so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa-Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ-Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papae-The dominion of God and the pope is the same?
3. His rise is mentioned, v. 6, 7. Concerning this we are to observe two things:-
(1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived.
(2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. The apostle justly calls it a mystery of iniquity, because wicked designs and actions were concealed under false shows and pretences, at least they were concealed from the common view and observation. By pretended devotion, superstition and idolatry were advanced; and, by a pretended zeal for God and his glory, bigotry and persecution were promoted. And he tells us that this mystery of iniquity did even then begin, or did already work. While the apostles were yet living, the enemy came, and sowed tares; there were then the deeds of the Nicolaitans, persons who pretended zeal for Christ, but really opposed him. Pride, ambition, and worldly interest of church-pastors and church-rulers, as in Diotrephes and others, were the early working of the mystery of iniquity, which, by degrees, came to that prodigious height which has been visible in the church of Rome.
4. The fall or ruin of the antichristian state is declared, v. 8. The head of this antichristian kingdom is called that wicked one, or that lawless person who sets up a human power in competition with, and contradiction to, the divine dominion and power of the Lord Jesus Christ; but, as he would thus manifest himself to be the man of sin, so the revelation or discovery of this to the world would be the sure presage and the means of his ruin. The apostle assures the Thessalonians that the Lord would consume and destroy him; the consuming of him precedes his final destruction, and that is by the Spirit of his mouth, by his word of command; the pure word of God, accompanied with the Spirit of God, will discover this mystery of iniquity, and make the power of antichrist to consume and waste away; and in due time it will be totally and finally destroyed, and this will be by the brightness of Christ's coming. Note, The coming of Christ to destroy the wicked will be with peculiar glory and eminent lustre and brightness.
5. The apostle further describes the reign and rule of this man of sin. Here we are to observe,
(1.) The manner of his coming, or ruling, and working: in general, that it is after the example of Satan, the grand enemy of souls, the great adversary of God and man. He is the great patron of error and lies, the sworn enemy of the truth as it is in Jesus and all the faithful followers of Jesus. More particularly, it is with Satanical power and deceit. A divine power is pretended for the support of this kingdom, but it is only after the working of Satan. Signs and wonders, visions and miracles, are pretended; by these the papal kingdom was first set up, and has all along been kept up, but they have false signs to support false doctrines; and lying wonders, or only pretended miracles that have served their cause, things false in fact, or fraudulently managed, to impose upon the people: and the diabolical deceits with which the antichristian state has been supported are notorious. The apostle calls it all deceivableness of unrighteousness, v. 10. Others may call them pious frauds, but the apostle called them unrighteous and wicked frauds; and, indeed, all fraud (which is contrary to truth) is an impious thing. Many are the subtle artifices the man of sin has used, and various are the plausible pretences by which he had beguiled unwary and unstable souls to embrace false doctrines, and submit to his usurped dominion.
(2.) The persons are described who are his willing subjects, or most likely to become such, v. 10. They are such as love not the truth that they may be saved. They heard the truth (it may be), but they did not love it; they could not bear sound doctrine, and therefore easily imbibed false doctrines; they had some notional knowledge of what was true, but they indulged some powerful prejudices, and so became a prey to seducers. Had they loved the truth, they would have persevered in it, and been preserved by it; but no wonder if they easily parted with what they never had any love to. And of these persons it is said that they perish or are lost; they are in a lost condition, and in danger to be lost for ever. For,
6. We have the sin and ruin of the subjects of antichrist's kingdom declared, v. 11, 12.
(1.) Their sin is this: They believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness: they did not love the truth, and therefore they did not believe it; and, because they did not believe the truth, therefore they had pleasure in unrighteousness, or in wicked actions, and were pleased with false notions. Note, An erroneous mind and vicious life often go together and help forward one another.
(2.) Their ruin is thus expressed: God shall send them strong delusions, to believe a lie. Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts' lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation. God is just when he inflicts spiritual judgments here, and eternal punishments hereafter, upon those who have no love to the truths of the gospel, who will not believe them, nor live suitably to them, but indulge false doctrines in their minds, and wicked practices in their lives and conversations.

Hi Lysa
I think you didnt address the issue though whether its great or not/ If its not great then we need not worry!
The maths doesnt work either way.My maths assumes its great but if it isnt then its not worth thinking about.
The issue is the falling away is within the church only then its a marginal thing,If its the world then people cant be quouting left right and center that verse to prove we can loose our salvation.ITS one or the other'
I know Im correct when it I said the falling away is coming thats why I said,
Yours Staff

Hi Julius
Thats great if it isnt going to be a "great" falling away even better!and if that falling away thats not great is from the Church only isnt great thats even more better!
But we cant have our cake and eat it when it comes to this scripture,
Yours Staff

Hi TMK,
If it is Christians that fall then it will be a small percentage of the worlds population.
Yours Staff

Staff,

I really cannot see your argument. Your so called apostasy math has no bearing whatsoever in the OSAS debate and no logic in regard to the rapture question. I think only you know what you are trying to prove.
It seems a bizarre and extraordinary straining effort to find a way of dimissing these positions. Is that because there is no scriptural basis for what you believe?

That there will be an apostasy before the Day of the Lord and the rapture is clear in the 2 Thessalonians passage. What that apostasy will look like is open for debate, but it is a fact.

It is interesting that you put up two positions to defend, OSAS and pre-trib rapture. I personally believe that these are the two major doctrines that are misleading the majority of sincere evangelical Christians today. I also think we are seeing these false doctrines being challanged by biblical truth and many coming to see the error of them. I speak as one of those who over the years have moved from those positions I was once taught and held to myself based on reading the scriptures more carefully.

Staff wrote:

"Hi TMK,
If it is Christians that fall then it will be a small percentage"

But you have not answered my question-- how do non Christians "fall away?"

I don't think the term "apostasy" can be properly applied to unbelievers. Therefore, it seems your argument is based on a false premise.

Hi Tmk
I think i didnt make my point clear enough.
I didnt say that apostasy was for the unbeliever.
I said if it is for the believer which many people say it is then as a percentage of the worlds population it will be small.

My point isnt been made on the premise that an unbeliever can fall away.

Yours Staff

Hi Dave
Look at arguement again,

Firstly I never mentioned the rapture at all so I dont know how you thought it did.
It does have a bearing on the osas.
I know exactly what im trying to prove.
From the very start I stated there would be an apostasy because i knew someone wouldnt read the post properly and think I wasnt saying that their wouldnt.

The First Thing :Im saying is:
If The Falling away is from the Church(genuine believers)
then it will be a small percentage of the worlds population.

The Second Thing:
If it not from the church then you cannot use the "falling away" scripture to prove that OSAS is wrong.You would have to take that out of the arguement and pursue it with other scripture.

Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
Yeah thats true but that has nothing to do with the specific falling away we are talking about,
Staff

Staff,

Bro., you told TMK that you didn't say the apostasy was for unbelievers. But, then you said in your First Thing and Second Thing "if" the falling away is from the chirch and "if" it isn't. I am trying hard to follow your thoughts.

TMK has a completely valid point. Unbelievers do not "fall away" or depart from the faith because they are not in the faith. So, there is no "if" to the idea of who apostasy applies to the church and people in it who profess a faith in Christ.

Will it be a small percentage of the world's population? I would say it will be but then I ask why it matters. I, too, have pondered it in the past a little. But, Scripturally I find no reason for the percentage to matter. Where percentages are important for us to know, God says so. (Tithe, Sabbath--maybe, one third of this or that wiped out in cataclysm in Revelation, pop into mind as examples). He did not, as far as I can tell, specify that as a proportion of world population that X% of the world would fall away.

The fact that it MUST be believers and not unbelievers who fall away makes the Second Thing a moot point.

Here is the meaning of the word

apostasy (English)
Origin & history
From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia, "defection, revolt"), from ἀφίστημι (aphistēmi, "I withdraw, revolt"), from ἀπό (apo, "from") + ἵστημι (histēmi, "I stand")
Pronunciation
a* pos"ta* sy
Noun
The renunciation of a belief or set of beliefs.
1871, James Anthony Froude, History of England from the Fall of Wolsey to the Death of Elizabeth, page 394
The King of Navarre suddenly abandoned his party and went over to the Catholics.
The explanation of his apostasy was as simple as it was base : Navarre had no confidence in the success of his cause, and he cared little in his heart for anything but women and vanity.
Specifically, the renunciation of one's religion or faith.
Synonyms

(renunciation of religion or faith): backsliding, conversion, deconversion
(renunciation of a set of beliefs): defection, disaffection, estrangement

It is used in the following verses in the NT and OT in the Septuagint

apostasía; gen. apostasías, fem. noun from aphístēmi (G868), to depart. Departure, apostasy. Occurs in Act_21:21 translated "forsake" and in 2Th_2:3, "a falling away"; Sept.: 2Ch_29:19; Jer_29:32.

It is interesting because the focus appears to be that the person is departing from Truth especially when you see how it is used in the OT.
It is
apostasy - renunciation of one's religion or faith

We see this happening today just as it was in the days of the Christ and of the beginning of the Church.

1Ti_4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.

1Ti_6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1Ti_6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.

Only God knows the heart of a man.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I found this interesting

Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age. But the man of sin, the son of perdition - Eminently so called, is not come yet. However, in many respects, the Pope has an indisputable claim to those titles. He is, in an emphatical sense, the man of sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled, the son of perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers, destroyed innumerable souls, and will himself perish everlastingly. He it is that opposeth himself to the emperor, once his rightful sovereign; and that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped - Commanding angels, and putting kings under his feet, both of whom are called gods in scripture; claiming the highest power, the highest honour; suffering himself, not once only, to be styled God or vice - god. Indeed no less is implied in his ordinary title, Most Holy Lord, or, Most Holy Father. So that he sitteth - Enthroned. In the temple of God - Mentioned #Rev 11:1|. Declaring himself that he is God - Claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.

staff wrote:
Firstly I never mentioned the rapture at all so I dont know how you thought it did.

staff wrote:
The maths just does not work if it is from the church and would deal a blow to such beliefs "as you can loose your salvation" and "post tribulation views"

God bless,
Lisa

staff wrote:
The issue is the falling away is within the church only then its a marginal thing,If its the world then people cant be quouting left right and center that verse to prove we can loose our salvation.ITS one or the other'

So, is this the one verse that makes you think OSAS is not 100% correct, so if you can disprove this one verse with that the Falling away will be such a small percentage of the world’s population no one will notice it?

You know better than anyone else that OSAS and the pre-trib rapture of the church go hand in hand. You’re forgetting the next part of the verse...

"For that Day will not come unless a falling away comes first...” The falling away will be so BIG that the Scripture states... ***THEN the man of sin will be revealed and the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself as God.. ***

One cannot happen without the other, brother, so which one are you trying to disprove?

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Lysa
Again im not trying to disprove either reality like i said
before three times now i think their will be a falling away and then the man of Sin will come.
I believe that the falling away will be "great" or "so big"
like you say even though the bible doesnt say "great falling away" as previously pointed out.
My point is that people cant talk out of both sides of their mouth and say different things.
If the falling away from is from the church it will be a marginal percentage of the worlds population and not big enough to have much effect much less have an effect on the man of sin to be revealed.
If the falling away is from the world then you cant use that and i say again for clarity you cannot use that "one" scripture in OSAS discussion.
For instance if you use that scripture to say " you can loose your salvation" then you have to also say "the falling away is marginal".
You cant have it both ways.
Glad to hear you say OSAS and Pretrib go hand in hand,
I have been saying forever that our trib view is important because it effects everything else.Likewise if you believe you can loose your salvation will go hand in hand with Post Tribulation.
Further effects could be if you are a pre tribber you could go into error with "grace" and if you are post tribber you could go into error with "grace"
Yours Staff

staff said:
I have been saying forever that our trib view is important because it effects everything

I don't believe a person can lose their salvation like losing a set of keys! But I do believe the hearts of men and women will be revealed especially in the final days and many will be found wanting.

I was pre-trib and was post-trib for about 10 years, now I'm just zeroing in on the two Resurrections!! While I'm here, my goal is to glorify His name. And if I'm here when the antichrist is revealed, I hope and pray I will endure unto the end and be an encouragement to others to do the same.

God bless you, brother
Lisa

It is really funny how nuanced and how many variations of end times views there are.

For example, I was tracking with you Lisa until you said "when the antichrist is revealed" so you must believe in a literal future person who will fit the bill as THE antichrist and will require literal marks on hands or foreheads etc.

I don't believe that, but do believe there is a definite antichrist system in play, but it's been ongoing since the time of the apostles.

I wonder if there is something instructive in the fact that there are as many end times views as there are Christians- because everyone has their own little nuance.

Perhaps it means that God does not really want us to know?

Well Staff, I still think it is a bizarre angle you are taking on this. I mean even if that verse were not in the bible it would not make any difference to the teaching of conditional security (i.e. the possibility of apostasy from the faith) because of the many passages that clearly teach this. I mean it is not as if the teaching hangs on this one scripture, but it is one among many that indicate that apostasy happens.

So you believe there is an apostasy, but you have not explained who and from what they depart from.

TMK, Yes there are many end time views, but generally they fall into various categories that influence those view. For example I would be pre-millennial, but pre-wrath rapture. Therefore I (like Lisa) would take a literal interpretation of scripture. I assume you are either a-millennial partial preterist in your view and therefore take certain scriptures as allegorical and/or all ready fulfilled.

Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice. It would seem to me that there is a desire in Western believers to embrace a God who will save us from all persecution and even our own rebellion. It's like all 'plain sailing in the sun' from here on. No need to agonise or persevere and hold fast to the Lord.

Dave wrote: "Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice."

Plus I think a lot of the espousers of this view went to the same seminaries.

Good luck:0 I read almost all of the posts and what came to my mind was that of the early church during the great persecutions under Nero. Christians would be under heavy persecution in one place but not another, almost like in one town but not the town just 50 miles away, or maybe one state but not the next state over. Anyway during that time many who had professed faith in Jesus denounced Him under that oppression only to come back into fellowship and received as true believers after the persecution in that area was pasted, many had to humble themselves and it seemed as if some were never reunited in the local fellowship also. Honestly I personally think that only a remnant will go in the rapture, or the catching up...I know the literal word is not in the bible, but Jesus' used the parable of the ten virgins to illustrate a point and used a model of what ? wise vs foolish. I believe they were all Christians in that parable. It is an interesting subject, like the one sister said I guess it is best to just be ready, Jesus said watch and pray, historically it is a good time for both.

Quote/"Dave wrote: "Interesting the fact that OSAS and pre-trib more often than not go hand in hand. I was saying this just last night to my wife. I think it may be to do with ones view of God and an overemphasis on God's love and blessings against His righteousness and justice."

Todd wrote: Plus I think a lot of the espousers of this view went to the same seminaries."

Yes and Yes to both of these!

Todd wrote: I wonder if there is something instructive in the fact that there are as many end times views as there are Christians- because everyone has their own little nuance.

Perhaps it means that God does not really want us to know?

Well I'm not sure about that last statement... He is not the author of confusion and the conclusion I'm led to from the "nuance" observation is based on the "same seminaries" observation, which is to say I've found many are more loyal/faithful to their denominational doctrines than the Christ they claim to serve. It's sad in that while there is value in the varying perspectives, none are complete alone as it requires personal revelation to understand Revelations (go figure). Having said this I believe the key is the love of the truth over the love of our doctrine. It's interesting and at the same time terrifying that about this very subject (return of Christ/rapture-falling away) Paul makes a most revealing statement regarding those who apparently loved their doctrine more than the truth;
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

What do you all think the delusion/lie is that God sends to proactively seal them unto damnation?
Also do you read this as those are believers/virgins who weren't prepared or unbelievers who never received the gospel that God sends this delusion to?

Honestly I've considered OSAS/pre trib positions as potentially being this,... one reason is how I read vs3 which (for me) seems to emphasize "that day shall not come, execpt/until"
(I mean no disrespect to those who maintain an OSAS/pre trib doctrine, as I am not saying this IS SO, rather considering it as an explanation in light of
verse 3)

I suppose the most simplest choice would be to simply believe what Paul said and that is don't believe any Spirit or any word or any letter but instead believe in what Paul wrote and what Jesus Christ himself said.

If Paul said so clearly that Jesus Christ would not be coming to gather us together to himself until first comes the Apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition AND that Jesus himself will destroy the son of perdition at that same coming.

Why not simply believe it??

If Jesus said in Rev 20 when He comes that the First Resurrection takes place and at that same time of His Coming He destroys the Antichrist and the False Prophet

Why not simply believe it.

Both Paul and Jesus as well as John taught a Doctrine of two Resurrections, of the Just and of the unjust.

It is very clearly taught that the love of many will grow cold, many will be led astray, because they did not have a love for the Truth, many seek after iniquity,

We see this today in the world and also sadly in the organisational church.

We need to be a people that continue to Trust in Jesus our Lord and Saviour and in His Word.

If God declares there will be a falling away, then it must be true.

We must continue to Trust

11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Here is a small example of Apostasy in the churches today
It is ok to worship allah and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob at the same time and together in the same building with the Koran and the Bible sitting next to each other.

The Bible states that Jesus is the Son of God and that God is the Father.

The Koran states it is blasphemy to declare that Jesus is the Son and God is the Father.

And these churches say that they are one and the same and that we should just be nice.

Is that not Apostasy??

John himself declared that the Spirit of the Antichrist is he who Denies the Son and the Father.

Fornication and Adultery is now equal in the church as in the world.

Is that not Apostasy?

Apostasy is to leave the Teaching of ones Doctrine or religion and in our case it is to leave the Truth of the words of Christ and of God and Sin against God and our bodies.

Did we truly lay down our lives Submit to our God and King and take up our cross or do we live a lie and just take what our flesh desires??

Hi budgie, I agree that apostasy is rampant in the whole world. I also agree that we are to listen to Paul and our Lord' words. We must be articulate in how we listen, and understand whom Jesus and Paul were speaking to.

There is a difference in Jesus speaking to Israel and Paul speaking to the Body of Christ His Church and or Israel. Israel is still steeped in their works oriented salvation. The body of Christ is completely dependent on Grace by Faith and those given to Christ by the Father, be they Jew or Gentile. I am a son of the Father by His Grace through my faith which is of Him and not my own. Jesus Christ is birthed in me and I am now the Isreal of God by faith not by works. Separating this Israel of works of the Law and the Israel of God by Faith and whom is being spoken to by the Son of God and Paul the apostle of Christ in you, the how of glory is a very weary thing, but the Holy Spirit it ever separating the two for the son of God by the Christ that is in them.

Thus the rapture and Jesus seated on the throne of David. One in the clouds and the other on this earth.

In Christ: Phillip

I think Paul describes well the Apostasy in the same letter that he mentioned the word Apostasy

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Apostasy is to love unrighteousness and to not believe Truth

Paul ties in the Apostasy with the Son of Perdition and as Paul says He ties the two events together
The Apostasy will take place at the same time as the Son of Perdition who Jesus will destroy at the time when He Comes and gathers us to himself.

The First Resurrection.

Yes there are many antichrists as John declared but there will be an Antichrist/Son of Perdition that exists at the Time of the Coming of Christ and praise God Jesus will destroy this Antichrist and bind satan for 1000 years and Jesus will sit on the Throne in Jerusalem and rule in Peace and Righteousness for 1000 years

Something the Antichrist cannot and will never do.

Hi Heydave,
I agree that the angle I am taking is Unusual to say the least but I believe it is important none the less and even in terms of Christian debate i am not disagreeing its not bizarre.
I am trying to stick rigidly to my point rather than discuss other aspects of the discussion as they have been covered over and over.
I will say this.
It all reminds me so much of the Neils Bohr v Albert Einstein debate on Quantuam Mechanics.
Neil Bohr although although "away with the fairies" according to many versus "the level headed brilliant" Einstein.
The only problem was Einstein was brilliantly wrong!and Bohrs ended up been proven correct.Despite some the fact that some of the church are away with the fairies are they in fact going to be correct.
Yours Staff

I listened to Derek Prince yesterday and he said....
______________________________________
"Give us Barabbas and crucify Jesus!" And at the end of this age, the human race will do the something similar. They’ll say, "We don’t want this Christ, give us the leader of our choice. This brilliant, talented, supernaturally empowered man, we want him.”

And they got Barabbas. They also said, "We have no king but Caesar.” An amazing thing for the Jews to say.

And for 19 centuries they've been ruled by the Caesars and the Barabbas' has been turned loose on them.

The same thing will happen to the human race, we're going to get what we choose. Those of us who choose Jesus will be under His gov't. Those of us who reject Jesus will be under the gov't of the antichrist.
________________________________________

I found this interesting and think that it makes sense! Has anyone else thought of this?

Well said Lysa and sadly how true

Us Gentiles sadly have made just as many mistakes as Israel
We have made idols and spend little time in His presence, we are not living sacrifices.
God have Mercy on us and forgive us.
We certainly have not shown the same Mercy to Israel as God had shown to us when He grafted us into the Commonwealth of Israel.
We have boasted against the very Branches we were grafted into.
The History of what the Gentile Church has done against Gods Beloved is disgusting and atrocious.
We have not brought any Jealousy to Israel as God had commanded.

The History of what the Church has done to Israel since the Gentiles were grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel must break Gods heart.

It is true, all have fallen short of the Glory of God, Jew and Gentile, we cannot boast.
Thank God for His Mercy to us all and for His unconditional Love

There are Churches today that has accepted Homosexuality, even ordaining Homosexual Pastors, the Church is accepting all religions and all sin amongst the members
These same Churches are allowing the world into the Church rather than the Church into the world.

Pastor David Wilkerson Vision is starting to be fulfilled.

I can understand why God says that the Bride has not made herself ready until Revelations 19 and that is because the saints are covered in filth rather than righteousness.

God have Mercy on us and help us to truly lay down our lives of filth and surrender all of our fleshly desires so that Christ may truly rule all aspects of our lives.
We all have dark black closets in our temples that we have not yet allowed Christ into.
Jesus help us to not deceive ourselves.

Well said Julius21

It is so vital to be grounded in the Word and in the Doctrines of God, Jesus, Paul and John and all of the Prophets.

Perfect Harmony of Doctrine and Truth when we align ourselves and believe in what they declare rather than our own beliefs.

On the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray $10,000 was offered to anyone that could give one verse to clearly support pretrib and not one person could provide one clear verse to prove that Jesus was coming before the Tribulation and not one clear verse that shows a Rapture that takes place before the Resurrection and also before the Tribulation.
Paul himself stated that Jesus will NOT come and will NOT gather us to Himself until the Apostasy and until the Son of Perdition is revealed and that Jesus Destroys this Son of Perdition at that same Coming, Paul even said to not listen to any spirit or letter or word that speaks against that very Truth.
The head of Pretrib Thomas Ice is even now declaring that the Apostasy is actually the pretrib rapture that means that the Pretrib rapture is in actual fact the apostasy by his own words, he is not the only one, there are many others declaring this strange doctrine that is against the word of God.

I did not realise that he went that far, it is sad that one would stand upon a doctrine as that with not one scripture to support that teaching.
I also believe that his statement has caused a division within the pretrib camp.

It is most sad that many do not study scripture, if they did they would realise that the rapture is the last event to take place in 1 Thess 4;16-18.
And that the Resurrection of the dead actually preceeds the rapture.

The rapture is no good without the Resurrection and God himself clearly tells us when this Resurrection takes place and God even calls it the First Resurrection and even declares that those that are in the First Resurrection are blessed.

Only those that are in the Resurrection and have their bodies changed to immortal are actually in the Rapture.

It is also sad that many believers have never even bothered to do a Biblical study of the word Rapture in the New Testament in all 13 places the word is used so as to understand what the word means let alone when it happens which is after the Resurrection, which God tells us is the First Resurrection.

What Thomas Ice is teaching about the 'apostasy' in 2 Thess is that the word means 'the departing to christ' i.e the 'rapture' and not a departure from the faith. This is a minority view (although I have heard it way over 30 years ago) and not supported at all by the use of the word in both scripture and secular writings of that time. It was always used to mean departing FROM truth or a particular ideology. In fact no where else in scripture is such a word used to describe the 'rapture'. It uses terms such as 'gathering', 'caught up' and 'resurection', never 'departure'.

In fact to try and implant the 'rapture' in place of 'aspostasy' makes complete nonsense of what is written. It would read "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him (the rapture), not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled"....."for that Day will not come unless the 'rapture' comes first"... (2 Thess 2:1-3).

So the 'rapture' will not come until the 'rapture' comes! Yeh, that makes sense????

They are really trying hard to find a scripture to hang their hat on. They must be so desperate, that they cannot see the wood for the trees. In honing in on changing 'departing from the faith' to 'departing in the rapture' they totally miss the context and plain language of the text.

Julius asked me:

"Do you believe in a literal return of Jesus Christ? I think you do. Remember, Satan is the great impostor, counterfeiter, and masquerader and he will attempt (as he always has done), to counterfeit Christ's coming."

I absolutely believe in a literal future 2nd coming. I am decidedly not a full preterist. And that is when the rapture occurs. I don't believe in 2 second comings (one sort of and one full) nor 2 raptures.

So if I alive and am raptured, I will know it's the real deal.

It does not make sense if this Apostasy is the pretrib rapture.

Simply put this is what Paul says.

1st Apostasy and Son of Perdition takes place

2nd then Jesus Comes

3rd then Jesus Gathers us to Himself

To say that the apostasy is the Pretrib rapture and that this must take place first this means that the rapture takes place Before Jesus Comes and also before Jesus gathers us to himself.

Truly makes no sense, not just that but it totally goes against all that Paul Prophesied in 1 thess 4;16-18

This is what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:16-18

1st Jesus descends with a shout
2nd with the voice of Archangel
3rd with Trumpet of God
4th Resurrection of dead takes place
5th then we who are alive have our bodies changed
6th ((then)) those resurrected and those who have bodies changed are raptured to meet Christ.

The Apostasy is truly just that it is an Apostasy.

Look at how the word of God uses the word Apostasy

Jer 29:32 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the LORD; because he hath taught ((rebellion)) against the LORD.

2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his ((transgression,)) have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

Thomas rice using the word apostasy as the rapture seems to be double minded in the sense that he states that the word apostasy is the rapture,he then goes on to say that those that are not in the rapture are the ones that have apostasied.

This also makes no sense, by his own words if the apostasy is the rapture then those who are not in the rapture they themselves by his own interpretation have also been raptured.

He appears to change the meaning of the word apostasy to suit how he wants, one minute he says it is rapture next minute he says it is rebellion????

We must abide by Gods word and consistency.

Why is it that we and I include myself don't just focus on what Paul said the Apostasy is in his own letter, surely Paul is the one to go to so as to understand what he is saying.

This is how Paul describes the Apostasy.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Apostasy is just this, it is to believe a Lie, it is to be deceived, it is to reject Truth, it is to be and to love unrighteousness.

It is clear in many scriptures that this Apostasy can apply to believers and non believers.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Let us all be a people that would love Truth and hate sin.
Love God and not the desires of the flesh.
Truly not just believe in but surrender all to Jesus and Truly be a disciple of Christ that walk in Spirit and Truth not in a lie.

Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Let us steer clear of Apostasy

I don't believe in a literal 7 year great tribulation.

I believe we have been in the tribulation that has been getting progressively worse since the church was birthed.

My motto is like the Boy Scouts- be prepared-- for any end times scenario.

Whoa. Good one Julius. Amen.

I agree with your reply to Julius TMK

Anything that leads us to cause our faces to look away from our Lord and Saviour and to walk away from Him is a concern.

No matter what we face and where we may be we should always know that the place that is best is to be before our Lord and Saviour with our arms outstretched pouring our hearts out before Him and confessing His Love for us and our Love for Him.

God wants us to be refined to produce His Glory in us.

There will be an Apostasy but there will also be those who do not walk in the dark but in the Light and these will shine in that apostasy for others to know what to do and where to go.

Thank you God for your Son and your Holy Spirit of Truth and for your Holy Word that was given to us by your people Israel.

Thank you that you showed us Gentiles Mercy and grafted us into your Olive Tree so that we could become co heirs with the Remnant of Israel that accepted the Messiah.

Together One Body in Christ.

Hi Again,
I see that the discussion drifted off in usual circles(although some good points were made) but I think the point even though granted it comes from a very unusual angle remains,
If the falling away is from the real believers it will be a small percentage of the worlds population and If the falling away is from the world you cant use that one particular scripture in OSAS discussion,
Yours Staff

Who may fall away?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Not predestinated to be lost of found, but to be "in Christ": According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

How can I whom the Father keeps me in Christ and most of all Christ in me, "the hope of Glory", be unbirthed of the Son of God whose incorruptible Seed indwells me, be lost?

These in Christ, Jesus says He will not loose those the Father has given Him. Praise God.

We are one as Jesus and the Father are one, which no one can separate, this I know by the Sealed Holy Spirit in me fulfilling His great commission of revealing the Son of God in me and me knowing the Truth.

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

In Christ, my only hope and Chance of being where He is:

Phillip

Hi Julius,
I think youve come clean now finally!You dont want to consider what I have to say as it impinges on your point of view.
My motivation for bringing this subject up has really nothing to do with it,
Whether I want to defend or reject OSAS is not relevant.
Talk about the valid point I have made and dont change the subject!
The Point:
If the falling away is from the church its a small percentage of the worlds population and if its from the world then you cant use that one particular scripture in the OSAS discussion.
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
That wasnt that hard was it?
The percentage of the people falling away compares to the worlds population is small.
Can we then say the falling away is not of much significance to the Non Believer(world)
?Except that this reletively "small event" somehow it has to come before the man of sin is revealed.Why is that?
How could such a relitively small event have such an effect?

The Scripture says that you quoted below only mentions enter
The Strait Gate and doesnt mention that once you enter you can go back out and it doesnt mention that when you find the gate you can loose it again!So if you are taking the broad way literally then you have to take the strait way literally too in order to be even handed.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT
Yours Staff

Staff -- honest question to you my brother.

If you surely do not know, I'll honor that in love.

If you think you know (or think you don't), say so. Also, will be honored in love.

Question: Is the "apostosia" about which Paul writes a departure from the faith by those who profess to be Christians?

Yes or No or "I think I know" or "I think I don't know". Feel free to elaborate as you wish, please. I'm not trying to paint you into a corner. I am genuinely confused by your posts on this. I want to understand. Please don't ask questions I'm not asking. Please answer this question, and with yes/no/I think I know/I think I don't know.

I am hopeful that I can understand from your answer to that specific question what you are driving at regarding OSAS. Because, right now, I have no earthly idea.

Hi Julius,
To me the tribulation views are important for this reason,
Whaterver view you hold Post Or Pre effect your whole outlook.
On one end of the scale You have crazy Pre tribbers who are off the charts and on the other end you have post tribbers who are equally off the charts.
The post tribbers are very quick to point at the "hyper" Pre Tribbers but are very slow to say well to point out that the vast majority of Pre tribbers are just regular Christians who love the lord and are as close to him as I am.
Which leads me to a follow on If the falling away from the church and then comes the man of sin.Is the"falling away part of the church" a restrainer?
Yours Staff

Lu 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

There is only one way to "hath", that is that it "hath" been given.

They that seem to "hath" and "hath" not, even that is taken away.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

There is only One that has an honest and good heart, The Son of God, Jesus Christ. To have an honest and good heart, the good ground has been prepared by God and the incorruptible Seed birthed in them are the only ones that have the heart of Christ in them and they cannot fall away.

No one can bring forth fruit without the Root.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip,
Quote: "Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

There is only one way to "hath", that is that it "hath" been given."

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you aware the word "hath" is a verb? Meaning (most often) to take hold or possess.

I ask this because I'm confused at how you came to the conclusion you came to...
Might you help me to understand what you are saying?

Hi all,
So are we concluding here that the church(true believers) is a "restrainer" of Evil?
Yours Staff

JFW my brother and one Spirit in the Lord:

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear : for whosoever hath , to him shall be given ; and whosoever hath not , from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have .

hath or have
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2192. εχω echo
Search for G2192 in KJVSL
εχω echo ekh'-o or scheo skheh'-o; (alternate form, used in certain tenses only)
a primary verb; to hold (used in very various applications, literally or figuratively, direct or remote; such as possession; ability, contiuity, relation, or condition):””be (able, X hold, possessed with), accompany, + begin to amend, can(+ -not)

A possession is either paid for; or given by which the giver has paid the price.

Jesus paid the ultimate price to; "for whosoever hath , to him shall be given

How many ways are there of Salvation? I only know of One.

Ephesians 1:5-8 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Jesus has shown me by the comforter Holy Spirit Teacher He has sent, who Jesus is and I believe.

Ephesians 2:8-15 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This gift "Hath" been given and I "hath" received it.

This I believe with my hole heart;

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It truly is He that is in me that will bring me into the Father' House and so shall I/we ever be with the Lord.

Hope this clarifies the "hath and the hath" not from my perspective.

In Christ: Phillip

Brother Phillip,
Thank you for your response,
You wrote: "A possession is either paid for; or given by which the giver has paid the price."
I guess I understand the definition of this word a lil dif than you. As I "hath" my wife and she is a free gift... I also "hath" ears- which were also not paid for, as it were.

Having said that I'm still not sure how you arrived at the conclusion you did in your previous post regarding not being able to fall away when you had cited Hebrews 6:6 which (among others) clearly says we can....

How is this so?

Hi Julius,
Why does the Man of Sin appear as a consequence of this small percentage of people falling away?
Yours Staff

Hi Julius
To Be clear true believers only.So as you admitted yourself before that will indeed be a relatively small percentage of the worlds population.So does this number act as a restrainer?
Or does any number of True Christians act as a restrainer?

Also if that number is too be greater than it is today then we would have to have an great end times harvest,
Yours Staff

Is it not the hand of God that restrains?
Like in all the other instances in scripture, till He gives them over to their desires?
At which point it would be perfectly logical that the son of perdition would be revealed, would it not?

Sadly many and I say many have totally misunderstood verses 6 and 7 because they have never taken the time and effort to look at the original Greek translation for verse 7

Taken is an incorrect translation, if you look at all 672 uses of the greek word Ginomai in the NT you will see that the word means to come into existance or into being or fulfilment It Does Not Mean To Remove.

The Greek word for remove is completely different.

Also the way has been translated totally incorrect as well. It does not mean to be blocking it means to be in the midst of, to be among.

Do a study for yourselves

Paul said in verse 6 that you now know what must happen before Christ returns to gather us to himself, and that is that the son of perdition will be revealed at the right time

Paul said in verse 7 that the mystery of iniquity is already at work and he that is holding back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst

Paul then continues by saying Then shall that wicked one be revealed whom Jesus will destroy at His Parousia.

Here is a link to a good balanced study on this subject of very very poor translation

http://www.logosapostolic.org/bible_study/RP355-9-2Thessalonians2v7.htm

Please have a look and see before yourselves, it makes more sense and much more harmony

JFW, this is a little long but I bow to this writing which I don't have the expertise to put in writing. But I fully agree with what is written.

Your wrote, Quote; "Having said that I'm still not sure how you arrived at the conclusion you did in your previous post regarding not being able to fall away when you had cited Hebrews 6:6 which (among others) clearly says we can....

How is this so?"

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hebrews 6:1

CHAPTER 6

1. Return to Judaism the crucifixion of the Son of God afresh (6:1-8)
2. Persuaded of better things: Comfort and hope (6:9-20)

Verses 1-8. A solemn warning follows, addressed to these Hebrews who were halting and in danger of turning back to Judaism, and doing so would crucify the Son of God afresh. "Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, of a teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." It is of much importance to see that these things are not "the principles of the doctrine of Christ" (as the authorized version erroneously states). These things mentioned are the elementary things which the Jews had before Christ came and as they were still occupied with them, He exhorts to leave the word of the beginning of Christ, the Messiah, and to go on to full growth. The full growth is Christianity as revealed in the finished work of Christ, the glory of His Person, His priesthood and the fact that the believer is in Christ and complete in Him.

While these Hebrews had believed in Christ, that He had come, they had not gone on to this maturity and lacked the spiritual knowledge of what Christ had done and the blessed results of His work and priesthood. They were therefore to leave the elementary things which they had and believed in as Jews, and abandoning them, reach the true Christian maturity. And these elementary things consisted in repentance from dead works and of faith in God. This was known and taught in Judaism. But it is faith in God, but nothing is said of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When baptism is mentioned and laying on of hands it has nothing whatever to do with Christian baptism, and much less does the laying on of hands mean "confirmation." (Confirmation as practiced in the Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and several other Protestant denominations is a merely ecclesiastical invention without the slightest scriptural foundation.) The word "baptism" is in the plural--"baptisms"--the different washings the Jews practice in connection with the ceremonial law, and so also the Jewish imposition of hands. These Jewish washings and purifications were only shadows of what was to come. It had come; and yet these Jews, though believing that Christ had come, still lingered in these things. Resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment, the things concerning the future were likewise the teachings they had in Judaism. But Christianity gives a higher truth, namely, "the resurrection from among the dead" and that the believer is passed from death unto life and shall not come into judgment.--"And this will he do if God permit"-- that is in the coming unfolding of true Christianity, the full growth, as given in chapters 7-10.

Before the author of the Epistle does this he shows what it would mean if these Hebrews turn back to Judaism altogether, and instead of going on to full growth would abandon the Christian ground they occupied as professing believers in Christ. Such a course would make it impossible to renew them again to repentance, for they, by falling away, crucified afresh for themselves the Son of God, putting Him to open shame. They committed the crime, which was done by them through ignorance (Lu 23:34; Ac 3:17), now knowingly of their own will and choice. For such a wilful falling away there was no remedy. The things mentioned in verses 4 and 5 show the possibility that a person may be enlightened, and have tested, and even participated, by listening to the testimony of the Spirit concerning Christ, and seen miracles, the powers of the age to come--without having fully accepted the offered salvation.

"The warning here has been a sore perplexity to many who are far as possible from the condition which is here contemplated. The description of these apostates, solemn as it is, does not speak of them as children of God, as justified by faith, or in any way which would imply such things as these; and the apostle, after describing them, immediately adds, as to those whom he is addressing; 'But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, even things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.' This is the most distinct assurance that he had no thought of one who had known salvation incurring the doom of an apostate" Numerical Bible.

All the blessings offered upon Christian ground are to such outward professors like rain, which instead of bringing forth from the ground useful herbs, brings thorns and briers, worthless, nigh unto cursing, and then the end, to be burned. Of a true child of God this can never be said.

("When once we have understood that this passage is a comparison of the power of the spiritual system with Judaism, and that it speaks of giving up the former, after having known it, its difficulty disappears. The possession of life is not supposed, nor is that question touched. The passage speaks, not of life, but of the Holy Ghost as a power present in Christianity. To "taste the good word" is to have understood how precious that word is; and not the having been quickened by its means. Hence in speaking to the Jewish Christians he hopes better things and things which accompany salvation, so that all these things could be there and yet no salvation. Fruit there could not be. That supports life" Synopsis of the Bible.)

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Julius,
So you are saying the church doesnt restrain?
Basically i think you didnt answer my question in around about way.Everything Good comes from god including restraining.
Also are you now saying for a their to be a "great falling away" of real believers then their will have to be world wide revival first?so we would have enough true believers to fall away in a great way.Is that a fair way to put it?
Yours Staff

Hi Julius
No i didnt say that you said that their would be a great falling away.
What I was asking was if the falling away was to be large in number would that mean their would have to be an end time harvest for this to happen?(as we obviously dont have that large number now in the church)
Personally I think because Jesus highlighted it
1.It must be huge
2.The effect of the falling away seems to be great not small.

I think if you asked most christians I would say they think it is huge
Also I said does the church restrain?Not is the church the restrainer?thanks
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,

Does the Church (true believers) restrain evil in the world?

I think im fair in saying you didnt answer the main question after two different posts.
However I give you credit for being the only one who tried.
It obvious that the "falling away" if it is the true believers is a relatively small event unless their is an end time harvest to boost the numbers of true believers.
Although the bible isnt clear most people from all views believe it is a big event.
The problem is that neither scenario fits well in your theology so you reply as you did.This isnt about numbers its about things adding up.The "Maths Doesnt Work" it doesnt add up,
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
The Math is simple and I think you know exactly what i am saying at this stage.
What I am saying is that people cant have their cake and eat it.
For the falling away to be a big event within the church their would have to be a huge harvest.The problem is that doesnt fit into the theological box of Post Tribulational beliefs.
OR
The falling away is a small event within the church and that doesnt fit in with Post Tribulational beliefs either because Post Tribulationists have rigthly in my view always thought it to be a big event with major consequences.
Its one or the other,It cant be neither or it cant be both.
The trouble is no matter which you choose your in a catch 22,
Yours Staff

Hi all
Yes I agree that is the case big or small most people not just post trib but pre trib have not done the maths correctly.
If the falling away is from the believers only at this particular time in history then that will be a relatively small amount of people compares to the worlds population.
If the falling away is sometime in the future and is from believers only but is a large portion of the worlds population then their would have to be a vast influx of non believers into the kingdom.
Either way this causes a problem for the Post Tribulation view which is held by many great Christian people and scholars.

The great tribulation is not normal tribulation but is a specific time in history that is going to make World war 1 and 2 look like a picnic and that time has not yet come.
My concern is for my brothers and sisters in Christ,
Yours Staff

RE: /// the case big or small most people not just post trib but pre trib have not done the maths correctly.///

What was your take on Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age.

The great falling away is an ominous global moral calamity that will go hand in hand with the delusion preparing the revelation of the man of sin and the great havoc he will bring.

Whether the great evil of the man of sin and the great tribulation is mathematically equal is something to think about but there is a strong support that the great tribulation itself is the Lord'act in which the true believers will not be without divine protection.

We know that the great tribulation itself will be cut short for the sake of the elect, if that will mean mid trib or post trib. 2 thess chapter 2 declared that the day of the Lord and the gathering will not come or will only come post event the falling away and the man of sin.

The biggest mistranslation has been done in this verse, and causes such error the Greek tells us exactly what it is.

The correct translation is

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

No one is taking anyone out of the way.

Paul told us what must take place before Jesus comes and that is the unveiling of the son of perdition

That is what is holding back the coming of Christ, scripture must be fulfilled, prophesy must be fulfilled, the son of perdition must be revealed in his fullness the son of perdition who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what holds back that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Search the scriptures and see where Ginomai is used 672 times consistently in the Greek but in the English translation it is consistent 671 times but not in 2 Thess 2

Very poor translation.

Greens King James 3 by Green translates it consistent

No one is removing anything out of the way

Proudpapa. Quote"What was your take on Wesley's Notes for 2 Thessalonians 2:3
2:3 Unless the falling away - From the pure faith of the gospel, come first. This began even in the apostolic age."

This is an interesting view. I had not read Wesley on this, but I wondered about the 'great' apostasy that went right through the Dark Ages when the Roman church pretty much controlled and dominated most of the so called Christian world at that time prior to the reformation.
True Christians then must have thought they were close to, if not in the end times due to that Apostate church and the pope as Anti Christ. I can't imagine an apostasy greater than this.

Budgie wrote:
"only he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence"

Why did Paul use the word "now?"

It looks to me......and I am cautious about forming firm opinion because I am not certain, and this is all terribly interesting as I go through it with your posts ....... that the 2 Th passage speaks of "restraining" as "holding steady" as in a steady, long term aiming at a particular time. The man of lawlessness appears in the passage as one who is holding steady the mystery of lawlessness in the world until his time comes to be revealed, which will happen when he comes from the midst (the ginomai budgie wrote about). The man steadily aims the mystery (guiding it and influencing men) with an eye on his time which, when it comes, will see him appear from the midst, and to be met at some point with the appearing of Jesus who will destroy the man and, I suppose, his mystery of lawlessness.

Does this make sense? It does to me. Maybe I am way wrong.

Yes Tim-

But the "correct" translation that budgie quoted said that the restraining was happening "now." The sense is something (a man?) was restraining himself until the right moment, rather than being restrained by something else.

But Paul wrote this in the 1st century.

So obviously Paul was not referring to an actual man, unless that man was alive then and is still alive today. (I.e., he's one old dude).

If he wasn't referring to a person, what was he referring to?

That verse again: "he who now holds back will do so until he comes into existence"

I guess the question that a lot hinges on is whether the first "he" is the same person as the second "he."

I think what budgie was trying to point out is:

What is being 'restrained' is the 'day of the Lord' and the 'restrainer' are the events that must precede it. That until those are fulfilled that 'day' will await.

The first 'he' is the Lord (His coming), the 2nd 'he' is 'the man of sin' (2Th 2:7).

It talks about chronology of events. Anyway, how we think about it will not really change the way these prophesies will come to pass. What we can do is to pray hard, that we will be faithful to the end.

Julius- I agree with you about the temple (try applying your logic to the passage where Jesus says in His father's house are many rooms"-- might rock your world- hint- God's house is never called heaven in the Bible- house always refers to the temple).

So do you believe this "man of sin" is a real man- meaning a single person who is yet to come?

I still think Matthew Henry's commentary that this man of sin is the papacy is extremely convincing; that which was the restraining force and ultimately removed was the Roman Empire which enabled the Papacy to grow in power.

TMK,
I don't know for sure. Did a little more reading, though. This makes sense to me.

A rule of Greek grammar is that a pronoun, adjective, or substantival phrase must agree in gender and number with its preceding reference. I'm no Greek scholar or student. I found it online, but it goes to the earlier point made about the two he's --- sort of. Bear with me please.

I want to lay out the whole passage here in ESV. This is when bold and italics features would be nice! :)

2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Context: Paul is calling them to remember what he had already taught them ("Don't you remember...?") about the coming of the Lord on the day of the Lord.

What had he told them? He doesn't detail, but he had evidently given them a thorough exposition of facts about the "coming" (parousia) that he started discussing in v.2.
It is readily seen from the passage that Paul had taught them about the coming of the Lord and what thing had to happen before that day. It is also obvious that some had been swayed by other people who taught that the day had already come. (Interesting how that conflict of thought still exists among brethren of good will.)

Whatever Paul says after that first statement is repetition for these Thessalonians. He'd already taught them all this. We now benefit from their confusion, right? Anyway...there was no need to fear that the Day had come and gone because it hadn't arrived yet, and they knew why. Now we know why he told them so.

The Teaching:

"...you know what is holding back..." Notice: "what" not a who. This neutral gender "what" explains the neutral participle "katecon" ("restrainer"). The participle is neutral because the reference is not personal, but to a something that restrains.

What is this "what" "holding back"? Well, I think we have to look at context again, right? What's the context? "...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him". Remember, the confusion was not about the revelation of the lawless one, but about "the coming of our Lord ... and our being gathered". More specifically, says verse 2, some sort of teaching (a sprit or word) or rumor (letter) about His coming and our gathering. What is being held back then? The parousia itself.

What is the "what" in v. 6 that's doing the holding back? The grammar indicates it, and this is where that rule I quoted at the top comes into force. A writer says that the neuter singular form appears ("katecon" -- "holding back") when a "mass" of ideas is being summed up in an expression. What mass of ideas is Paul discussing in 2 Thess 2 that are being summed up? Verses 3 and 4 -- the apostasy and the revelation of the lawless one. Grammatically, these are the 'mass' of ideas in the passage that the gender neutral "katecon" is applied to. In other words, the apostasy and the revelation of the lawless one are the "what" that is "holding back/preventing/standing in the way of" the parousia and gathering.

Verse 7 contains a change of participle form, though. It goes to a masculine form -- "Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way." HE -- a person -- who now "katecho" (present masculine form of "holding back").

So, the total expression seems to be that the EVENTS of apostasy and revelation of lawless are "holding back" the coming of Christ and gathering together to Him, and in v. 7 Paul shifts his emphasis onto the actual person who is the lawless one who must first appear (v.4) and is thus personally "holding back" the parousia and gathering.

In this sense, TMK, I don't think the Thessalonians actually understood Paul at all to necessarily refer to a then-existing person. Quite the opposite, it seems that Paul was saying that "now" this person's appearance restrains/holds back/stands in time between the current time and the coming of Christ and our gathering together to Him. It doesn't require that the person actually existed "now" (which was 'then' to us), only that "now" (which was 'then' to us) this person's appearing holds back the day of the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him until such time as that person appears, whenever that will be.

Again, I'm not standing firmly on this, but it reads logically to me.

Your explanation makes good logical sense.

If correct, I wonder if the identity of this man of sin will be obvious. It seems he would be because Paul links his revelation as a precursor to the parousia. In other words Paul seems to be saying "look for the man of sin because when he is revealed Jesus is not far behind." Paul seems to intimate there will be no mistaking the man of sin.

However, I am not convinced that Paul was not using the term "man of sin" as a veiled reference to something he had more explicitly taught the Thessalonians. Of course we do not have the advantage of knowing what he taught them in private. The language regarding the "restrainer" also seems to be indicative of a veiled reference. In other words, he was purposefully vague in his letter- in case it was intercepted by unsavory authorities(which causes us consternation) but perhaps his direct audience knew exactly who and what he was talking about.

Hi Passerby,
I guess thats it their for me most people what ever our views believe this to be of global porportions,
This cannot happen right now today if the falling away is from the church(true believers)only,
Although it doesnt say the word "great" the fact that Jesus mentions it in the context of what he is saying would strongly favour a global size,
Yours Staff

Very interesting Julius. I am tracking with you.

It seems the apostasy would create the divide. The apostates (man of perdition) would somehow convince the world that the true remnant is the cause of society's ills. We see seeds of that today.

As a side note, Art Katz taught that there would be a great future anti-semitism that would make the holocaust pale in comparison because EVERYONE will be after the Jews. He thought this would likely be due to a great financial collapse that people would blame on the Jews. He also felt the true church would have to rise to the occasion and shelter fleeing Jews, and that this action would result in a harvest of Jewish converts.

I just wonder if there could be any parallel between what may happen to the true church and this worldwide Jewish persecution (if Art was correct about that).

Indeed, one of the most pernicious endtime deception will be about Israel, the blood remnant of Jacob, the branch that was cut off and subjected to partial hardening but which God has declared that will be grafted back again to their own olive tree when the fullness of the gentiles has come in.

All Israel will be save this way:

..."There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"...Rom 11:26

Hi All,
I'd be interested to know if anyone really believed that the falling away would be small in numbers?(in particular anyone who pointed out rightly it didnt say "great".)
I doubt it very much....because if it isnt small and its true believers well it cant happen anytime too soon unless of course their is huge harvest first
Yours Staff

RE: ///All Israel will be save this way:
..."There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"...Rom 11:26///

Yes,
But the Deliverer has come out of Sion already.
and all of Israel by faith (Jews and Gentile) are being saved already and will continue to be saved untill the end.

add: A remnant of Jews will continue to be grafted back in, untill the fullness of the gentiles has come in, which is the end of the world. and so all of Israel by faith (Jews and Gentile) will be saved.

Read any one before the 19th century before Darby/Scolfield

Wesley's Notes for Romans 11:26

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved - Being convinced by the coming of the gentiles. But there will be a still larger harvest among the gentiles, when all Israel is come in. The deliverer shall come - Yea, the deliverer is come; but not the full fruit of his coming.

staff wrote:
I'd be interested to know if anyone really believed that the falling away would be small in numbers?(in particular anyone who pointed out rightly it didnt say "great".)

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, displaying himself as being God."

I believe in two "falling aways." The final falling away will occur. There is also another falling away and this one is in a person's life. I experienced this and that's why I believe it's on a micro level as well as will be on a macro (society) level. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, etc for 20 years and I fell away (backslid) for almost 5 years. The man of sin had to be revealed in my life for me to be where I am in the Lord now. The Lord, in His mercy, showed me that I had to make a decision to return to Him or keep going the way I was going. I returned to Him.

I was a prideful Christian those 20 years before. The lust, the religiousness, the selfishness, the self-righteousness, the crookedness in my life HAD to be revealed. I don't know why every christian doesn't have to walk down that particular path but I thank my God He led me down it, and kept me in it and spoke to me to lead me out of it but I can't deny it happened.

THERE WILL BE A FALLING AWAY that the hearts of men and women will be revealed. The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? The Lord knows it and He will reveal it. It doesn't say they'll all fall away and go to hell. There will be those who have ears to hear and return before it's too late. That is the mercy of our God!

God bless and feel free to disagree!!
Lisa

RE: /// but some people take the word "until” in verse 25 ”“ to mean that a part of Israel will only remain blinded until ”“ and after ”“ the full number of the gentiles have come in, then the whole of Israel will be saved.///

That view as well as the pretrib rapture view seems to have become popularized by the Plymouth Brethren movement in the early 19th century :

"The Powerscourt Conference

On October 4th, 1831, thirty-five clergymen and fifteen lay people gathered at the country estate of Lady Theodosia Powerscourt, in the small, Irish village of Enniskerry outside Dublin. All who assembled for the first Powerscourt Conference on Biblical prophecy were 'distressed at the condition of the Church', and 'convinced that the hope of Christ's return should figure more prominently in the thinking of Christians.'[1] Few could have imagined then how great an impact this, and subsequent Powerscourt Conferences would have on the wider Church.

The inspiration behind these conferences, which enabled the pioneers of the Plymouth Brethren movement to develop a more coherent understanding of prophecy, may have been Lady Theodosia's attendance at the first Albury Park Conference in Surrey, England, in 1826. There, thirty of the most eminent premillennialist scholars and clergymen of the day had gathered for the inaugural conference at the home of Henry Drummond to discuss 'the great prophetic questions which � most instantly concern Christendom'. These included 'the times of the Gentiles', 'the present and future condition of the Jews', and 'the future advent of the Lord.'[2] Five annual conferences were held in total, concluding in 1830. According to Drummond's account,

the majority of what was called the Religious World disbelieved that the Jews were to be restored to their own land, and that the Lord Jesus Christ was to return and reign in person on this earth.[3]"

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/for-zions-sake-darby-and-christian-zionism#_ftn3

Sister Lisa,
Great Post!
And Praise God for He is faithFULL!!!

Will He not forsake the 99 to go and save the 1 who strayed?

And for what it's worth, I agree that it's both and they are one in the same.

I have a question,...

Do any of you saints have insights into what the "strong delusion" sent by God that they should believe a lie is?

I of course have pondered this and one thing in particular seems to be a potential but I was wondering what you all came to?

by JFW on 2015/10/11 23:00:48

I have a question,...

Do any of you saints have insights into what the "strong delusion" sent by God that they should believe a lie is?

I of course have pondered this and one thing in particular seems to be a potential but I was wondering what you all came to?

Or it can be a religious band-wagon of some sort (there's TONS of those!!); pick a topic with them and they will hold more to their band-wagon (belief) than they do the truth of the Scriptures.

It's unending the types of strong delusions there are. If they are in a strong delusion, it's only come after many, many, many, many attempts by God to get them to hear HIS truth but they rejected it.

Zac Poonen has a great sermon on the topic below.

Lovers of Truth
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4268&commentView=itemComments

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Julius,
I guess the next logical question to you is now that you agree that it is significant is when will this great harvest of souls happen that will swell up the numbers of the church(true believers)?(so we can have a significant falling away)
Or are you saying these people will come to Christ because Christians are being martyred and then these same people will fall away?
Yours Staff

Hi Lysa,
Yes I agree with what you are saying about a personal falling away from sin towards God.
My point all along is that we dont have the numbers in the church at the moment for a falling away that would have any significance.So if the falling away is from the true church then it cant happen anytime soon untl there is a harvest to swell that number up greatly,
Its a very simple point,not complicated.Where are these people that are going to fall away come from?I know that you said earlier i believe that it wasnt only from the church but some are still saying that its from the church only it doesnt add up.The true believing Church is not big enough for this falling away,
Yours Staff

by staff
Hi Lysa,
Yes I agree with what you are saying about a personal falling away from sin towards God.
My point all along is that we dont have the numbers in the church at the moment for a falling away that would have any significance.So if the falling away is from the true church then it cant happen anytime soon untl there is a harvest to swell that number up greatly,
Its a very simple point,not complicated.Where are these people that are going to fall away come from?I know that you said earlier i believe that it wasnt only from the church but some are still saying that its from the church only it doesnt add up.The true believing Church is not big enough for this falling away,

I haven't kept up with the whole thread so I don't know what you're trying to prove. Pre-trib? What?

I used to argue for post but anymore my goal is to attain to the first resurrection and I don't care when it is! "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection..."

God bless you brother,
Lisa

Hi Lysa,
I would think that the falling away is global as you do.
All I am making is two points.
1.If the "falling away" is from the true believing church then the church is too small at the moment for this to be a major global event and would need a vast influx of new christians(a global harvest),and wont happen today or tommorow.
2.On the other hand if the "falling away" is from the whole globe then you cant use that particular scripture in the OSAS debate.(just that particular one scripture)You can use others but not that one.
God Bless
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
No I have said absolutely nothing false so i refute that totally.
I have built my case already.The church is not big enough for a falling away of the kind spoken about at the moment and their would have to be a harvest to make this event significant.
I have been totally honest with my replies.
I asked does anyone really believe that this is not a big event numbers wise?A question you are afraid to answer but I now think you are basically saying that it isnt as far as i can see but somehow its still significant?how can that be?
I honestly dont think that their is anybody who thinks the falling away is a a small event numbers wise.
Maybe you can explain significant without numbers.I think the falling away and numbers are intrinsically linked,I dont know how they couldnt be,its quality but also quantity
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
I put this post up because I saw something I hadnt seen before a fundamental flaw in the falling away issue.I didnt want to talk about the other issues they can be put up on other posts.

The qoute:
By the way, it may not be great in numbers but it is significant to the Lord if even 1 out of 100 sheep go astray

Has nothing to do with what im talking about your explaining significance from" Gods love" Point of view not the worlds and its quite clear in my opinion and in all other people who have shared a view that the falling away will not be 1 in a 100 but a very high percentage.Its all about the maths it doesnt work at the moment.Their cannot be a falling away if it is from the church only at the moment.
What I have said in writing is clear and consistant and narrow in focus and somehow this post has been moved off a very clear topic.
Which is the "falling away" cannot happen at the moment if it is the church only.
We know that God cares deeply about the 1 and even the cattle in Nineveh he cared about and considered them significant.
Do you think the falling away will be a high percentage of the global population?I do think the falling away will be high percentage.
Yours Staff

Staff, brother, I truly do not understand what your point is in this thread.

Let's all assume, safely, that the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2 will be a "small percentage" of the world population.

Let's assume further that those who do not fall away will be as small or smaller than the apostasy, numbers wise. IDK if that will be so, but humor me, please.

I ask with all respect, what is the importance of these numbers to the thought you are trying very hard to communicate?

Hi Dolfan,
I have explained the point i am making over and over again,
It is so simple but il humour you lol!
The importance is this that the falling away is mentioned by Jesus so its 1-a big thing 2-It has to happen before the man of sin is revealed-big consequences,
If the apostasy is small in number it will not have any global consequence.
If anyone really thinks that the apostasy is small why do we continually talk about?
So its a big thing not a small thing and their will be big numbers and big consequences in my opinion.
We do not have the numbers in the true Church for this big falling away they are not there.
Conclusion:If the falling away is to happen and it is only Church people true believers it cant happen until the numbers are much higher and thats important.
Thats why its difficult to answer this question
Do you think the numbers involved in the falling away will be a large portion of the worlds population?(if you have a post tribulaion belief)
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,

The scriptures clearly and this has been pointed out numerous time do not say "great" everyone has agreed to that ages ago.
After saying that why does everyone think it will be great?
1.Jesus mentioned it
2.The consequence is great

If you dont think the the falling away will be a high percentage of the worlds population.
Is the church a restrainer?(not thee restrainer)a restrainer?
And why would a small percentage have such a big effect?
Yours Staff

Staff, Staff, Staff...

Once again- how can non-believers apostasize?

You keep asking if this apostasy will be limited to the Church.

By definition, it must be.

Only a high school student can drop out of high school.

It is possible that you are defining apostasy differently than the rest of us-- how do you define apostasy?

Hi Dolfan,
I have explained the point i am making over and over again,
It is so simple but il humour you lol!
The importance is this that the falling away is mentioned by Jesus so its 1-a big thing 2-It has to happen before the man of sin is revealed-big consequences,
If the apostasy is small in number it will not have any global consequence.
If anyone really thinks that the apostasy is small why do we continually talk about?
So its a big thing not a small thing and their will be big numbers and big consequences in my opinion.
We do not have the numbers in the true Church for this big falling away they are not there.
Conclusion:If the falling away is to happen and it is only Church people true believers it cant happen until the numbers are much higher and thats important.
Thats why its difficult to answer this question
Do you think the numbers involved in the falling away will be a large portion of the worlds population?(if you have a post tribulaion belief)
Yours Staff

Last night, I got to thinking, "Is there an equation that anyone has come up with to measure the significance of the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2.?" I never thought about that in my life, but your insistence on using math to inform you about the significance of that apostasy had me second guessing myself. Not that thought that anyone COULD meaningfully model that in an equation, but I wondered anyway. I looked for a few minutes and didn't find one.

There is a reason for that, I think. I mean, you can't throw a rock without hitting somebody online who has pulled out their slide rule and a Bible and calculated some fantastic theory about the times of the end because they believe that (A) numbers don't lie and (B) they are smart enough to figure out all the numbers and (C) they forget that God is smarter even than they are and has wrapped so much of this behind things our math cannot approach.

By the way, I love reading a nicely stated mathematical approach to some of these questions. Some are valid. I have been amazed at some of them, especially matters pertaining to 69 weeks and 70 weeks, etc. (Let's not take that rabbit trail any farther here; I just wanted to tip the hat to good biblical math.)

But, I think God has purposely made this beyond measuring because we're just not competent to know. We don't think like He does. The very fact that we attach our opinion of the numbers of apostasy to our opinion of the significance of the apostasy in the world at large is Exhibit A as to why we can't be trusted to know some things. I'm guilty, too. I would LOVE for their to be a mathematically knowable way to say "this is the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2" and "this ain't". But, God hasn't made that available, apparently.

Jesus said "the love of many shall wax cold." You want big numbers? "Many." Many unregenerate sinners, many professing Christians have gone stone cold in love of neighbor and certainly in love of God or anything connected with His goodness. Is that apostasy? To a degree. Is it 2 Thess. 2 apostasy? Okay, yes, to a degree. To what degree? I don't know. I don't see where Jesus said we needed to know. I know HE knows, but I also know He knows all kinds of things that I just don't need to know and that He cares not one whit to reveal.

Can we empirically discern all biblical truth? It seems to me that this question of the mathematical quality of 2 Thessalonians 2 apostasy implies that we can, or at least that we're not trying hard enough to find out. There is another way of maybe doing so -- correlating the apostasy with other prophesied events. That's a minefield, too. But, I do think that accurately identifying THAT apostasy is not really possible without the context of other accurate identifications of other issues of the times of the end. This requires, I think, spiritual discernment more so than mathematical discernment.

In short, I don't think you can get there from here, Staff. I just don't.

Hi Julius,
You in particular have not answered my questions or if so only fter a 100 posts!
So if the church doesnt restrain evil then why have moral human government etc?I didnt say the church restrained all evil.What I asked is did the church restrain evil?
Also you are saying that the world's morals are the same with the church in it or out of it.How can that be?We have no influence in society?
I ask then how come with such a small falling away that the consequence is so great?I didnt get an answer to that?
Yours Staff

Hi Dolfan,
I havent posed a mathemathical equation.
Sometimes mathematical discernment is spiritual discernment!
I have asked simple questions that people wont answer because it upsets their end time theology.
I'd like to see you answer these questions Dolfan'at least too yourself if not here.
Namely questions like
Do you think the falling away is big?
If you think its big why?
If you think its big and church only where do the numbers come from?(as they are not there presently)
If it small how does it have such an effect?
If it is small why talk so much about it?
Does the church restrain evil?
I havent got many straight answers just the usual blurring.
But the ones I got vary from I think its a global event of great significance to I think its a small church falling away that is somehow significant despite the fact that the church doesnt restrain evil.
I think that the falling away is global,I think its big in numbers and consequences as do most Christians Post or Pre.
But to say its from the Church only is Fantasy in my opinion;
My post is not me saying we need numbers or wanting to know how many numbers or the percise amount.Many is good enough for me.
But you cant have your cake and eat it.
If as some people are saying that the falling away from the church and it has such a great effect.Why?
Yours Staff

"I have asked simple questions that people wont answer because it upsets their end time theology."

Bro, I fail to see how it upsets anything for anyone because we do not see your point.

"I'd like to see you answer these questions"

"Do you think the falling away is big?" My wife sometimes asks me questions like that and I learned that there was no right answer except no. In this case I will ask -- define big. You will say numerically. I will ask raw numbers or as a percentage of something. You might answer "pick one". I might say ok, 90 pct of the church. You would be wise and smart to answer "how big is the church then?" And I would say I don't know and that it does not matter. Then we would probably wonder why on earth the other of us does not see it as we do. Then I would say to myself, "I think I will treat Staff as if I'm married to him and say 'no, it is not big.'"

"If you think its big why?"
Naturally, you would ask this after I just said I would treat you the same as a wife who asks that question. Because, Staff, you like to make trouble! ;). You know I am teasing. Seriously, though I don't know how to answer that question. It begs the question of what big is and we are back to who is on first?

"If you think its big and church only where do the numbers come from?(as they are not there presently)". I have zero idea what this means. Define big. Define "church only". Then explain why the numbers matter. Because I am just not following you brother.

"If it small how does it have such an effect?" What effect? The apostasy IS an effect. It is a present ongoing effect.

"If it is small why talk so much about it?" What kind of talk, exactly?

"Does the church restrain evil?" Sometimes it recycles evil and not so much of a strain.

"I havent got many straight answers just the usual blurring."
It might help me be clearer if you would just say the answers you would give. I think you have though and I still do not get it. I am sorry.

If the point being wrestled with is whether the church is the restrainer of 2 Thess. 2, I do not think this path of reasoning gets you to an answer. I personally, as a matter of biblical interpretation, reject the idea that the church is the restrainer.

Hi Julius,
Qoute From You,
No, I don't think the falling away will be a high percentage of the world's population.
And
I never said there was a small falling away. I don't know, do?

You think that the falling away is church only as far as i understand, So it has to be small at the moment then(but later it could be big if their was a harvest)
How could a falling away from a non high percentage of the world population have such a great consequence?
I'm thinking on how to re phrase the question and this would be the same
If the falling away was from a small percentage of the worlds population would it have such great consequence?

The Church Can be both Salt and Light as called and have a restraining effect on evil, one doesnt negate the other.
Isnt that possible?Again I didnt say The restrainer I said restrainer.
Its up to you whether you want to reply,not forcing anyone.I am putting my point consistantly forward.
What I think is this The falling away is big and its global and it couldnt be small,even if it were 50% of the present day church real believers it would be too small.
So something has to give its either the church and its small or its the world and its big or their is a harvest to swell the numbers of the church and they fall away or its none of the above and is something else(i dont know what that would be)I think the church does restrain evil as consequence of us being here and as positive influence on society.For instance when we look through history regarding revival we always read reports about public houses closing,less swearing,higher moral standards etc as effects of revival not just in the saved but the unsaved,
Yours Staff

Hi Julius
Will Check it out tommorow
thanks Staff

quote: "So something has to give its either the church and its small or its the world and its big"

I think your only option here is that it is the Church because you have not yet explained how the "world" can apostasize.

If one half of the true Church fell away, that is a HUGE deal. It would be a tragedy of the ages. It may not be a big deal in relation to the entire earth population, but I can assure you it would be a very big deal to God.

I am not sure where you get the idea that if the apostasy is "great" that it only means great in relation to percentages against the world population. Great can be a term of quantity or quality.

Hi Tmk
But just answer the questions.
Why is it a big deal?
According to Julius the church is not a restrainer?
One sinner is a big deal to a God it doesnt have to be half the Church.One sinner is enough.One Sinner falling away doesnt however mean that the man of sin is revealed.Why does half the church?
Why if the half the Church falls away is it such a big deal and has the consequences son as the man of sin is revealed.
Yes it can be quantity and quality but where does it say that?
Where does it say that he is talking about quantity over quality or quality over quantity.
Again do you really think the quantity is going to be small?
Most Christians dont as far as I can see.
Why if the church doesnt restrain evil in the world would the falling away of half the church have such a big effect?
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
Somebody had too!lol
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
No i dont think they are missing that at all,
I am not asking questions regarding OSAS,
I am clearly asking questions on how practically a falling away from a small section of the worlds population has such a big effect?And not one person who believe its the "Church of true believers" has been able to answer that.
I think they should be able dont you.

I have had "its big to God" kind of answer but thats the height of it.But one sinner lost is big to God but it doesnt cause the revealing of the "man of sin".
I think thats a fair observation.
Most posters have agreed with my point that at this moment in history it is a small section of the worlds population.

I didnt start the post to discuss the OSAS debate and many great scholars and great Christians have discussed that to great lenght which involves the definition of "falling away" and the path is well worn,
Yours Staff

Staff-

What do YOU think the "restrainer" is?

Staff, may I ask what leads you to conclude that the apostasy of 2 Thess. 2 causes the revelation of the man of sin/lawlessness?

The passage does not state a causal link between the two. There is a sequence, but not a cause, in the passage as it relates those two. I am asking you to explain, exegetically and expositionally, how there is one.

I'm going to throw a wrench into this mess, staff. It may or may not be worth anything to the thread.

I am reading a secular book called, "One Second Away," (yes, I know!), and it is about our enemies setting off a nuclear bomb ABOVE or in the atmosphere and causing an EMP (Electromagnetic pulse) that sends the United States back to the 1960's. (In my opinion, that is one the few ways they will disarm us in a matter of a second.)

But upon reading this book, as water and food AND medicine dwindles, neighbors, friends and loved ones turn on each other. This isn't a book about Christians but as I read it and listen to it (on the way to work), I thought about this thread talk!!

I'm also thinking about all the Christians who will not trust God for their welfare and it gave me the shivers. My point in even bringing this up is that maybe the 'falling away' isn't religious in nature at all! Maybe it's plainly and simply, "This day I set before you life and death, choose life that you may live." And many won't, they will try to save their natural life, opposite of what our Lord says.

Just a thought a my friends!!
God bless,
Lisa

Lisa-

What you are saying could happen; the problem is that the word "apostasy" in scripture refers to a falling away from faith, not a general falling away from civilized behavior, or obedience to civil authorities.

In other words, if people start killing each other in the wake of same disaster (I remember an old movie called "panic in the year zero") that isn't apostasy. It's just people behaving like animals.

Now, it is entirely possible that some major disaster COULD cause apostasy in the church, no doubt. I guarantee many so called Christians will recant everything to save their own skins or to protect their stash of food, water, ammo, and gold coins.

May God grant us grace not to be numbered with them.

What you are saying could happen; the problem is that the word "apostasy" in scripture refers to a falling away from faith, not a general falling away from civilized behavior, or obedience to civil authorities.

Hi Julius
Qoute:
No one is able to answer:

1) how big in numbers the falling away will be, whether great or small.
2) because no one knows any numbers on the falling away, no one knows the actual effect it will cause. We just have been warned by the Lord not to be deceived that MANY will be offended and betray one another

1.We do know the figures if it happens now
Somewhere between 1 person and 2 billion people(if 100% fall away)and all that 2 billion are saved.
2.Are you now changing your mind and linking the number of people that fall away to the effect that it will cause?
Yours Staff

Hi Dolfan,

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
Again im not getting into what the falling away is but only what i posted from the point of view that the "falling away" is from the church.
I am saying that if the falling away is from the church explain to me ....
True believers always act as a buffer against evil and perhaps maybe 200 billion might have died in wars in the 20th century if we werent around,who knows..
What I definitely know about OSAS is that whether you can or cannot may be debated long into the night but what is definite is that it is Extremely Hard to Loose your Salvation.So you could say im EHTLS person.Otherwise I,you,all the moderators,members,posters and readers of sermonindex would have lost it long long long ago.
Yours Staff

Hi Lysa,
I think probably more along your lines of thought and falling away from faith maybe what your describing.
I think most people would think that its global in size and effect even privately most of the sermonindex members.
I live in Ireland and its a strange time to be a Christian more than anywhere on the planet.Thousands of young people paid out on plane,train and boat tickets to get home to vote gay marriage into law.The first country in the world.
You wouldnt really understand the effect it has had on Christians.Funnily I had an eleven year old girl very bright say to me the other day.(non christian)
"My School is wierd,we have a Priest who is an Atheist marrying a Lesbian Couple". And its law.
That is a falling away from the Godly order of things or moving away if you would like to call that.
Their are now Guinneas adds promoting homosexuality on the tv as a direct result,So I can see a falling away happen right in front of my eyes but this time its official,
Yours Staff

You see a cause where there is not one. Sequence? Yes. Cause? No.

"I won't have breakfast until the eggs are scrambled and the sausage is fried and then my breakfast will be served." The eggs being scrambled did not cause the sausage to be fried or even breakfast to be served, but breakfast won't come without it.

Hi Dolfan,
Here is an exerpt from Matthew Henrys Commentary

The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (v. 8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin: here he seems to speak of his rise, which should be occasioned by the general apostasy he had mentioned, and to intimate that all sorts of false doctrines and corruptions should centre in him

He knows the cause of the breakfast coming is that a cook has made it.
The man of sin would have no ability to arrive if their was no falling away,
Yours Staff

Hi Julius,
These are fair points

1.We do know the figures if it happens now
Somewhere between 1 person and 2 billion people(if 100% fall away)and all that 2 billion are saved.
2.Are you now changing your mind and linking the number of people that fall away to the effect that it will cause?

Yours Staff

Staff-

Matthew Henry goes on to state that the papacy was the man of lawlessness and the Roman Empire was the restrainer.

Serious consideration should be given to his conclusion. It certainly seems to make sense.

Staff, my brother,

That is not cause. That is sequence. Today does not cause tomorrow, but tomorrow won't come until today passes. Same as the breakfast analogy.

Henry admits it. The revelation of the man of sin is "occasioned by" the apostasy. Now, we cannot and will not exegete Henry's phrase as it is mere commentary. But, the common use of that phrase, and Henry's own use of it, describes two things which occur close in time and are related. It is not causation.

But, certainly, you insist that apostasy is offered in 2 Thess. 2 as a cause of the revelation of the wicked one. You are doing so, I think, because in your mind it is vital proof of a pre-trib rapture. Honestly, if you believe that, OK. Who am I to keep you down?, as the old song says. You do not need a causal link between these two events to sustain that belief. I am certain that your pre-trib brethren are quite happy to keep looking up without any need to find a causal link here, and they actually do not need to. And, if you are going to hold to the pre-trib belief, do so without feeling like you have push something else into this text. Or, are you questioning that belief? I pray that even Christ Himself will reveal Himself to you and that any internal wrestling with this is resolved in His peace.

Change Apostasia to aphestemi and that may solve the riddle of this thread.

I miss the man (king jimmy) and have a good heart with bro staff, though I may not agree with them in different issues.

Well, pre-tribulation rapture is a very comforting thing and may serve as a protective chaff for a young believer
who has predisposition to be overly anxious about future events.

But it may also serve as a snare specially to those who are
caught up with 'easy believism'. The thing is, being true disciple of Christ we may undergo severe trials where only only divine protection can save us.

The doctrinal, cultural, ethical, and legal changes that make our hearts groan are related to apostasia that when the man of sin is finally revealed he has a sort of full authority to persecute the true believers. Israel & Jews even, towards armageddon.

passerby wrote:
I miss the man (king jimmy) and have a good heart with bro staff, though I may not agree with them in different issues.

I believe marcmc was talking about the King James Version of the Bible, not the person. I could be wrong and I think that because I've been known to call the King James that also but like I said, I could be wrong.

God bless,
Lisa

Yes, I got it. I love the style of KJV but I usually use ESV or NKJV for my daily reading.

Hi Dolfan,
Matthew Henrys Commentary is as good as any but I put it in to show that most people believe the sequence is the falling away then the revealing of the man of sin but also that it is a direct consequence that he cant come until the falling away.
I think the passage is cyrstal clear on that.
If you look at the scripture only it can only be taken as such.

Also My questions.
Do you think the falling away is great in numbers?
Why does the man of sin come after or during the falling away?
(and cannnot come before)(when only a small percentage of the worlds population are involved)
Why is it benefitial for the man of sin to come after or during a falling away of a relatively small percentage of the population?Why is the environment right for him to appear?
Why skirt around the question just answer.
Yours Staff

Hi Dolfan,
Matthew Henrys Commentary is as good as any but I put it in to show that most people believe the sequence is the falling away then the revealing of the man of sin but also that it is a direct consequence that he cant come until the falling away.
I think the passage is cyrstal clear on that.
If you look at the scripture only it can only be taken as such.

Also My questions.
Do you think the falling away is great in numbers?
Why does the man of sin come after or during the falling away?
(and cannnot come before)(when only a small percentage of the worlds population are involved)
Why is it benefitial for the man of sin to come after or during a falling away of a relatively small percentage of the population?Why is the environment right for him to appear?
Why skirt around the question just answer.
Yours Staff

Well, regarding Henry --- I'll just agree to disagree with you lovingly. He doesn't use language to imply cause/result. The passage expressly states a necessary sequence that one doesn't occur until the other, so when Henry agrees with that he's right and so are you and I. The causation link is one that I believe you are reading into the passage, and it appears to be the basis of much of your thoughts in this thread as to the numerical significance of the apostasy. We're speaking from two different planes of understanding on that and it is impossible for me to answer in the way that you want.

As I did, in fact, answer in an earlier post I don't know how many apostasize. I don't know raw numbers. I don't know percentages. I don't need to know. Oh, I have opinions. I had thought quite a while ago that maybe less than 10% of professing Christians in America, at least, are actually Christians. It was a while after I formed that opinion that I heard Leonard Ravenhill say (I think it was) 5%. So, put me in that camp that thinks maybe 90% of the church has already apostasized, I suppose. I am completely unable to relate that (OR ANY) number to any cause of the events that Jesus and the apostles Paul and John or any other biblical writer place afterward.

See, I don't think it is merely the "environment" being right for the man of sin to appear, but the timing from God's perspective of fullness of time. I don't think we can do more than guess wildly or try to intuit some reasons that might be responses to your questions.

I'm not skirting your questions, brother. I've answered them before straight on. I merely repeat here, and try to explain perhaps a bit more why my answers are what they are. I don't think your questions are answerable.

If the apostates are catholics(as per Matthew Henry) then at least half of professing Christians are apostate (because half of the worlds Christians are Catholics).

Toss into that mix all the Protestants who aren't really saved, as mentioned by Tim, then we would seem to have an apostasy that is almost complete.

In other words, it could get worse but it's already pretty bad.

If the rapture must occur prior to the apostasy, it is taking its good ol' time.

But by the same token the man of lawlessness is taking his good ol' time appearing---unless of course Henry was correct and the papacy was in view. It's been around right under our noses for centuries.

Mat_13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

Mat_13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mar_4:6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

Mar_4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Luk_3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

It is all a condition of our heart, our desire to serve a King or make ourselves the King, we can truly only serve one Master, under times of pressure our heart and loyalty is revealed.

The falling away will be a revealing of ones true heart and desires for Flesh or for Spirit

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.