Are you ready for the big reveal?

The scriptures are silent for a reason.

God doesn't warn or prepare people for non-events.

He is not an alarmist, or a denier.

I'm not sure how many believers understand the Atheist thrust behind the diggers in the dirt and the diggers in the stars.

NASA and the Archeoligist are both very intent on finding an Iron Clad biblical error. The Archeloisgist know that if they can uncover some find that throws doubt on a geographical or timeline error they can build an entire argument around it. NASA is doing a similar thing with the planets.

The life on other planet debate is in many ways a cornerstone of Christian Thoelogy. If your a Christian and you beleive that there is or could have been life on another planet your theology is extremely problematic.

marcmc

by TMK on 2015/9/29 9:18:48

Julius, you said that God does not prepare people for non-events and that He is not an alarmist or denier.

Does this mean that you think discovery of life elsewhere would be a non-event, (as in no big deal) or that it is not possible per scripture?

non-event = something that does not exist

If it existed it would be the biggest deal in the existence of mankind since the incarnation of the Savior.

What is the Holy Spirit telling you regarding why God has only seen fit to tell us about life on this planet?

What the Holy Spirit is telling me is this:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Nothing about aliens which would certainly be classified as a "wonder" and nothing about life on other planets, which most people would regard as "gods".

2Tim_3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Th_2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING WONDERS.

If I am not being direct enough...

It is a colossal waste of time to entertain "life" which the Lord has not spoken about. God is not the Deceiver.

Let's just say, Alien life is discovered. How, from the scriptures has God prepared us to relate to that life? Are they human, do they need a Savior, do we preach the Gospel to them?

There is no life on another planet is easy to prove from an Arminian position and only takes longer to explain from a reformed position.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Only begotten. One Son means one creation. Any other creation would have massive problems for the bible. The first would have a creation that was incapable of falling and therefore would be totally robotic and the second would have to be a creation that so far hasn't fallen but could potentialy in the future. And as God has already demonstrated the true requirements of His Rightous demands in the Crucfiction of His Son. His problem would be He only has One Son. One Son means one body, one kingdom, one creation.

marcmc

TMK,

My position is iron clad based upon the revealed character of God in the Bible. If a believer could not see that the Only Begotten absolutely destroys any other hypothesis it's because his biblical understanding is weak.

I have witnessed to thousands on unsaved people and this is just another of their objections like why did Jesus not know the earth was round ( He did of course) or what happened to the Dinysours?

Their nonsense imaginations dreamed up by carnal minds with a sliver thin view of time.

marcmc

Come on now Julius- you are not going to use the "it's not in the Bible so it can't be true" argument are you?

I could list all sorts of things that are not mentioned in the Bible but are perfectly true- but it would take the rest of my life to do it.

So it is obvious in both yours and Marc's theology that you would have a huge difficulty dealing with such an announcement.

It wouldn't be difficult for me. I would think they were demons.

Rather than saying such a thing is simply not possible (even though the earth is only a minuscule speck in the universe) I am interested in how you will deal with it if it is discovered (other than shouting "fake").

I am truly interested. I ask my wife this and she really doesn't have an answer.

I am also interested in how you will deal with it. I would rebuke them in the name of Jesus Christ.

Well, this is not a small thing, is it? This would be classified as very, very big. I know there are some small things not in the Bible, and you are right, I don't usually use the "It's not in the Bible", route.

But, this BIG thing is not in the Bible is it?

Would you please tell me, if God has supplied any direction for you to relate to these "beings". Do you relate to them with the Gospel or outside of it. We really have not been given any instructions how to relate to someone outside of the Gospel. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

What if they don't know anything about Jesus Christ?

The Bible speaks about man's condition, but not about alien's condition. How will you proceed? Will you decide that they are sinless and above men? What if they can do astounding things that man cannot do? Will you worship them? In short, will you lose your faith in Jesus Christ, if these aliens can do what man describes as miraculous signs and wonders?

So, let's just assume they exist and you get to meet one and they are nice and friendly and tell you that they have travelled from one end of the universe to another and have not found anyone named Jesus Christ (I kind of expect that). They are also very kind and benevolent and can actually save our planet from all of it's woes. And they are over 1000 years old and don't remember anyone having an old age problem and dying. How will you relate to them. Surely, it seems you have thought of all of these things.

Truly? I don't think about such things.

I want to be about my Father's business and He has not shared any of that "business", with me.

So, it won't alter my desire to fulfill God's will in my life and I don't think it will alter God's will for me, either.

I imagine finding a new life form in Antarctica would have the same effect on me as finding a new life form on Regulon 4. None!

dolfan,

He could not redeem another life form. Angels were create as ministering agents for the heirs of salvation. The ones that rebelled have no opportunity of redemption for reasons made clear in the scripture.

Any other beings on any other planet created for any other purpose would rebel, fall and have no redeemer. You guys are all Armenian (free will)I can't fathom how that is hard to understand. Unless of course you think that God can do anything because He is God. Which of course would be even more rediculous.

PS please don't make me list the countless things that God cannot do!

marcmc

by marcmc on 2015/9/29 14:51:36

You guys are all Armenian (free will)I can't fathom how that is hard to understand.

marcmc

Who is "you guys?"

I just see this as something else to distract from Christ. There is so much more of Christ to discover and yet we want to see new places, things and life forms. TMK, just curious, why is important for you to know how we would react?

You guys means, you guys.

marcmc

No, TMK,

It is not our job to convince sinners. God has called us to be faithful, not expert debaters. I leave the results up to God. And how do you defend something God has not given any insight into. If men want to deny God, they will always find a way, even if they have to invent aliens (which I think are demonic powers). I won't be in awe of them.

Don't let atheists put you on the defensive. You make them seem important when you give them so much credit. And they love that.

Defending the faith is a vital aspect of the Church. I can't even imagine the ground the church would have lost if not for dependers/debaters against Atheism in every age. This arena has always been on the front line. You should be grateful for guys like William Lane Craig and John Lennox in this hour. They have kept the Church from looking like a 6 year old with ice cream on his face.

marcmc

by marcmc on 2015/9/29 15:45:54

Defending the faith is a vital aspect of the Church. I can't even imagine the ground the church would have lost if not for dependers/debaters against Atheism in every age. This arena has always been on the front line. You should be grateful for guys like William Lane Craig and John Lennox in this hour. They have kept the Church from looking like a 6 year old with ice cream on his face.

Let me rephrase what I said:

I won't be "defensive" in my defense of the faith. But, it is still not my responsibility to convince or convict sinners. I leave the results to God. However, God has made it clear that He does not want me to participate in the following:

1) fruitless discussions -
1Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

2) opposing arguments which are falsely called "knowledge and science" -
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

3) strive about words -
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

4) engage in foolish questions, genealogies, contentions or strivings about the law -
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I am not anti-intellectual and don't think Christians should be. I don't know who William Lane Craig or John Lennox are, and I am not overly impressed with intellectualism. What impresses me is not someone that has a lot of knowledge but someone that has the "knowledge of the Holy". (Jer 9:23-24)

Julius21

1 Corinthians 9 : 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

I belong to a Hi End Audio site. These guys are University Educated, 80% Athiest and for the most part very well off. It is absolutely impossible to speak about either politics or religion on audio forums. The first post on those subjects gets you a warning the second post gets you banned permanently.

I engaged these guys in a theist debate on the open forum that had thousands of views and hundreds of posts. I was the only theist against 20 Athiest who pulled every trick in the book. I could not leave the thread for three weeks and the owner of the forum sent me a lengthy PM asking me to continue the discussion and spiritual questions concerning his spiritual searchings. These guys used to slam Christianity every chance they got and from that point forward have never brought up the discussion again.

I received around 20 other PM's from these members who wanted to ask me personal questions about their objections and ther was not what could be considered an argument with the exception of one member who hates everything.
marcmc

JFW,

Please explain what you are.

marcmc

marc,

I am not Armenian or Calvinist, either. I am in the middle where the truth is.

You're a Theist?

If you posted so much on that forum and was asked to stay then that says you can express yourself well in writing. Why don't you take some time, don't be in such a hurry and do that same thing, here.

You alone seem to have misunderstood my point concerning my writing ability. It was meant in reference to intonation. I don't have a cell phone and only post on this and an audio forum. It is however not uncommon for my intensity to rub a few people the wrong way. In person this never happens which is why the audio site allowed the debate to continue. My intensity was given leeway because so many have met me in person and know that I do not communicate in person like I do in writing.

I use the term theist out of habit when I put on the Atheist debate cap. I engage in many of these discussions and it's just easier. Terms like believer, Christian and born again will end any meaningfull discussion before it starts even though all those titles applies to me.

FTR High End Audio has been my hobby since I was in my teens, in that arena I am asked for advice constantly on the forum and on the phone. When people want to know what ou know they will take it in any form it's given. On here I'm still trying to figure things out because thread rep seems to be the highest priority.

marcmc

Hi JFW,

You're a peacemaker, I appreciate that. So, am I, believe it or not. I don't know marc but I am sure to know him is to love him, especially since he loves the Lord Jesus. Same with me. I disagree with much of his writings which are a manifestation of his thoughts, but don't confuse that with me not having love for my brother. I don't even know marc. I just see letters expressing thoughts appearing on a screen and I respond to them with my thoughts.

Please don't confuse disagreement with lack of love.

by marcmc on 2015/9/29 18:21:58

You alone seem to have misunderstood my point concerning my writing ability. It was meant in reference to intonation. I don't have a cell phone and only post on this and an audio forum. It is however not uncommon for my intensity to rub a few people the wrong way. In person this never happens which is why the audio site allowed the debate to continue. My intensity was given leeway because so many have met me in person and know that I do not communicate in person like I do in writing.

I use the term theist out of habit when I put on the Atheist debate cap. I engage in many of these discussions and it's just easier. Terms like believer, Christian and born again will end any meaningfull discussion before it starts even though all those titles applies to me.

FTR High End Audio has been my hobby since I was in my teens, in that arena I am asked for advice constantly on the forum and on the phone. When people want to know what ou know they will take it in any form it's given. On here I'm still trying to figure things out because thread rep seems to be the highest priority.

marcmc

That's cool, marc. Thanks for the explanation. I understand better, now. BTW, what is "thread rep"?

The challenge with you Julius21 is one I have encountered my times in my Christian book company and the unusually large personal encounters this brought me into contact with.

As Paul said I have become all things to all men. Can you imagine the fine line I had to walk so as not to offend or cause strife. I also do this when witnessing to the unsaved. You have to or your a proof text Bible thumper that gets dismissed minutes into the discussion and laughed at as a joke by the person as they walk away. When I witness to people they are absolutely, massively convicted of sin and yet I never ever say the word sin.

But back to my first point I asked Julius21 when I first started posting here to list 5 books he recommends to believers, mentioned Muslims have the identical position on Satan as he does and told him of William Lane Craig and John Lennox as two of the Churches point men against the rise of Atheism and he hasn't heard of them. This is shocking to me because every idea I hear for the first time, every objection to Christianity and everything in between that gets my attention is immediately put on my radar and I buy, ask and read everything there is about it because a soul I witness to or a Christian who the Lord brings me for help is on the line. IMO ignorance and doctrinal isolation is the deadliest sin. Well at least that's what the Lord convicts me off and hounds me till I have turned over every rock.

In other words there is so many differing views in the Church that IMO it is vital to have locaters in order to have peaceful conversation. Some see this as pigeon hole's or camps. I don't see it that way at all, I see it as madidtory for communication.

marcmc

Thread reputation is a position that is safe and easy to maintain, a person who is interested in this usually only responds to others. It is a position that almost always makes it point presented as a counterpoint to the points of others. Unless the topic is clear or obvious.

In a word it's safe.

marcmc

marc,

The more I read your posts, the more I just want to be gentle with you, because I sense a very immature believer.

You have a lot of bluster with very little content. This is a forum where we exchange ideas and don't exchange spiritual resumes and accomplishments. I am still waiting for content from you, not your reading list, or people you rub shoulders with or the number of people slain in the spirit by your very presence. You on the other hand seem very superficial with your requests and you make accusations, call people names and place people in "camps" without backing up what you say.

I won't go over everything you said about me, because I believe the more you post the more everyone can understand why I need to ignore much of what you say and just give you a pass.

I mean this in love brother when I say you sound like you suffer from a lack of personal significance. So, I'll tell you what, you don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. I will keep that promise, even if you respond to mine because I think that will be the best thing for you.

I could not agree more on the avoidance and agreeing to disagree. The Irony is your post about me is identical to how I see you. We are on opposite sides of everything and even though the topics we have discussed are pablum. Could you imagine what would happen if it got into something remotely deep?

BTW I totally believe God allows the friction among ideas and doctrines because he never seems to do single thing about it. He clearly thinks that when two polar opposites occur that tremendous growth occurs among those who are somewhere in the middle.

Be well and going forward lets consider ourselves invisible. On our Audio site we have an ignore feature where post by ignored members do not even appear. Do they have that here?

Marcmc

Proud papa,

In sports thats called the third man in and is usually penalized the most.

Julius21 and myself have put a fork in it already. :)

Going forward you will not see me needing to reference personal experiences which like Paul I hate doing for the very reasons this thread demonstrates.

marcmc

Then what? This thread was about life on another planet. I said God has one son therefore he had one plan. Any other plan would demand redemption at some point down the road when those creatures fell.

This simple point IME has never been challenged by a single Christian I have ever shared it with. And from what I see it hasn't in this thread. How did I hijack it? The premise behind the thread at that point failed to be able to continue on anything other than speculation.

Do you have a point on that position? Do you think God could have another creation while He only had one son? If so how?

IMO this thread was not hijacked it vaporized !

marcmc

Abraham had one son that was alive to God. He had eight sons all together but only one was begotten.

Hebrews 11:17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

Genesis 17:15And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her. 17Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? 18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! 19And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. 22And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Ishmeal was given an earthy covenant because of the exchanged life. Abraham had a covenant with God and God honoured it with an earthly covenant with Ishmael. Of course the consequences of it are the entire middle east problem.

Ephesian 2:11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Marcmc

I looked very hard a the nephilim theories years ago and I don't think anyone knows.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

I do not think we have enough scriptural confirmation to establish any doctrine.

But I will ask you a somewhat related question.

How could Goliath have been saved?

marcmc

by TMK on 2015/9/30 12:49:48

Honestly Johannes-

How does asking if you are theologically ready should alien life be discovered irreverent? Not considering the issue, and how we would respond to a lost and dying world, is what would be irreverent.

And it doesn't just apply to this alien question; it applies to all sorts of things, like technology advances, etc.

TMK, consider respecting a person's opinion if they perhaps find your question as falling into category 1 or 2.

1) fruitless discussions -
1Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

2) opposing arguments which are falsely called "knowledge and science" -
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

3) strive about words -
2Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

4) engage in foolish questions, genealogies, contentions or strivings about the law -
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I'm with TMK on this one,

These topics should be wrestled with even if the conclusion at any point or time is "I don't know"

(Julius21 I saw your post after I posted mine)

marcmc

I respect anything that anyone wants to think about even if I don't find any interest in it. Everyone is not an apologist and we don't have to be interested in everything. My focus for instance is mostly within the Church although I started off as an evangelist and still engage people (in real life), every day as the Lord leads.

proudpapa wrote,

"I never gave it much thought, I suppose I always thought of Goliath as a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction.

Could there be other 'vessel of wrath fitted to destruction' in the universe that could be revealed in the last days. I personally doubt it, but I am not sure that I am completely confident that it would be Scripturally impossable. What is your thoughts ? "

Let me expand my original question. How could any Hittite, Jebusite, Egyptian, Philistine, Amalikite or any inhabitant of canaan prior to the Isrealites have been saved?

marcmc

Heydave how about before Abraham?

Or during the 400 years in Egypt

How could the other nations be saved. And if Rehab demonstrates the method for all then why did God sent His people to slaughter them rather than evangelize them?

marcmc

HeyDave,

Before Abraham:

Heb 11:5 BY FAITH Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Heb 11:7 BY FAITH Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

This does not sound like a slaughter to me.

marcmc

All these topics are very stimulating and I do find many interesting...but then I remember that it is the revelation of Christ that changes men.

John_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Praise God for intellectual Christians that can reach "intellectuals". In the final analysis the intellectuals will have to come to Christ as a child and reach out to Him in faith.

All men are not intellectual but all men of varying backgrounds, education and social status can have faith and God has purposed that this is the way men will come to Him.

proudpapa,

I'm not sure the inhabitants of the earth had the same opportunity Abraham had. Seems God did not even want the people of Ur to know.

Enoch walked with God, seems every example in the Bible were this happened God initiated the call to walk with Him. Jesus called His disciples.

God came to Noah with a word, God came to Moses with a word, read the first chapter of almost ever Prophet and the you'll find "the word of the Lord came too......."

Act 7:2And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, 3And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. 4Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. 5And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. 7And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place. 8And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

Hmmm, "Aliens" and "Limited Atonement" kind of go together.

by TMK on 2015/10/1 13:59:45

Except that aliens are far more likely to be true.

HAH! You found me out.

Not sure I see an answer to what I asked proudpapa.

I understand it's unpopular here but hundreds of thousands of people went to hell and I was simply asking "proudpapa" his take on why!

These versus say to me that no works were done and no gospel was preached in Tyre, Sidon or Sodom. And not only that but God the Son said that if that had happened they would be in heaven today! Why?

Matthew 11: 20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

TMK, FTR spend some time with me and I guarantee you will hate "T" the most. There is a reason it's first.

marcmc

Pat I'll take

Never and never for $500

marcmc

JFW,

You probably won't like this but the word "sovereignty" does not appear in the Bible (KJV), even one time.

So, who defined the word "sovereignty" if we did not let the Word of God define it? The Word of God defines and explains most of its words. Even the ESV version does not have that word.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
sovereignty
sov·er·eign·ty \\ˈsä-v(É™-)rÉ™n-tÄ“, -vÉ™rn-tÄ“ also ˈsÉ™-\\
: unlimited power over a country
: a country's independent authority and the right to govern itself

1 : supreme excellence or an example of it
2 : supreme power especially over a body politic
a : freedom from external control : autonomy
b : controlling influence
3 : one that is sovereign; especially : an autonomous state

So, we can ask ourselves, do the subjects of a Kingdom have the ability to choose? We don't see the phrase "free will" or "freedom of choice", but we do see the King of the Kingdom telling man (through His servants) to "Choose".

Jos_24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

And if we can choose then we can reject.

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

We can see from these two verses that God is not coercing man to choose or reject Him. Thus you can conclude man has freedom to choose or reject, which is basically "freedom of choice."

Though "sovereignty" is not a biblical word, it has been made into many, many theological concepts. It pretty much means supreme power and dominion but many other compound phrases have not really been defined and are bit ambiguous.

Calvinism, for instance has spawned many "sovereign" terms. For what purpose? You can think about that, I have no idea. Here are some of those terms.

"sovereign authority, - is that redundant?
"sovereign power" - redundant again?
"sovereign control" - and again. (couple of more - sovereign reign, sovereign rule)

Whatever happened to "ALL POWER" -
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

How about sovereign causation, decrees, determination, plan, purpose and sovereign will?
His sovereign determinations, counsel, and foreordination along with all the previous sovereign "words" only give rise to new theologies.

And sovereign love and grace, I am at a loss for words.

God is the only being that has absolute free will. He can do anything He desires to do (of course it will be consistent with His character). Man does not have free will. If a man is in jail, he can't just choose to be out of the jail. Now, that is what I call FREE WILL! Go wherever you want, do whatever you want, whenever you want. Even man does not have that kind of free will.

In the garden, man was seduced to make a choice and reject God. Man chose to not be dependent on God and bought the lie (You can be like God), that he can be completely independent. What a lie that was. He did not know he was going to be completely dependent and contingent on Satan's character and being.

Evangelicals to this day say that when man fell and was no longer dependent on God that he became independent. But, that was not the case. Man became dependent on Satan and began to manifest his new spiritual father's character and behavior. (Eph 2:2)

Evangelicals like to say that man cannot generate his own righteousness yet they are quick to point out that he does generate unrighteousness. According to their theology, he can generate one, but not the other. Huh?

But fallen man is incapable of self-generating anything. He is either dependent on Christ or he is dependent on Satan. He bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit or the fruit of the Satanic Spirit.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." (I John 3:8).

What's the devil got to do with it? Fallen, natural man is a son or daughter of the devil and the lusts of their father they will do. They cannot choose to stand independent from both God and Satan. Man always knows when he chooses God, because it goes against everything in him at the time and in this world (which lieth in wickedness). Most often, man does not know he has chosen the Devil and does not realize he is contingent and dependent on Satan's character, which produces Satanic fruit in men. (Strife, hatred, murder, jealousy, envy, coveting, adultery, etc).

1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The fallen man is inextricably bound and dependent upon the "power of Satan"

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Unregenerated man may think he is free and independent but he is really a "slave to sin". (Rom 6:6).

He must hear the "good news", so he can know and understand the truth and exercise his God given ability to choose to be dependent on God and no longer on Satan (repentance). He must choose to REJECT Satan, the powers of darkness, sin and choose Christ, who has called him.

Evangelicals actually have fallen into humanism when they persist in thinking fallen man is independent. They are actually denying the activity of Satan (a big problem for the church is their ignorance), but none of us "lives unto himself".

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

You cannot live independently, apart from God or the Devil and you can't die independently, apart from them.

Man's identity is coming from one of them.

We like to say that Christ is on the throne of one's life or else "self" is. But, now you know the rest of the story (who really is on the throne if Christ is not).

Just as Satan disguises his diabolical activity in various religions, he disguises his activity in man, disguised as "self".

He knows you will begin to beat on yourself and treat yourself badly if you think your problem is self and some "dirty old man" that you can't get rid of.

Yes, we are to deny ourselves but we are denying the selfishness and sin that Satan is inspiring.

The lie of humanism is the independent "self" and the Church has swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

We still do live in the flesh, and the flesh is earthbound and cannot please God. It is a container for our soul and spirit. We must deny what the flesh wants when it is in conflict with the Spirit. Please don't stop eating food.

So, now does this verse make more sense to you:

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to WHOM ye yield yourselves servants to obey, HIS servants ye are to WHOM ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves UNTO GOD, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Remember, Satan counterfeits EVERYTHING of God. Satan has a Body and he is the Head of His body and he indwells his subjects but instead of giving life, he brings death and destruction. He disguises himself and obfuscates all that is of God. And please understand that not everyone is a foaming at the mouth demoniac.

2Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Forgive me if I did not answer your question regarding "where the sovereignty of God ends and free will begins". I don't know anything about that theology.

Yes, JFW, I understand.

But, when you think about the question, "Where does God's Sovereignty End and Man's Free Will Begin", it is hard to put parameters around that particular phraseology because in reality, His Rule and Authority never ends and in a dynamic exchange between two persons, it is not as cut and dried as theology would like it to be.

Now, in relation to man making a choice, it is like any relationship based on mutual respect and love (The way God operates). Give and take, speak and wait, etc. God will speak, and wait for man to respond. Man will respond by either rejecting God and continue to be contingent on the father of lies or he will make a break from sin and rebellion and choose to place his trust (dependence) on God.

It is tough to parse out the dynamics of when something begins and ends in a dialogue between two persons.

Just look at this exchange between God and Cain.

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Cain had some kind of relationship with the Lord because he brought an offering to Him.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

And Cain knew that God did not accept his offering. Read on and see the dynamics of relationship, give and take, speaking and waiting for an answer and you will see that this is how God works with most of us. He speaks, gives us some truth, and then waits for some action (reject or accept His truth) from us. So, his Kingship and authority are always being exercises and man, when it is his turn, is always exercising his freedom of choice. Because, as you will see, at each interval in God's and Cain's relationship, God is speaking, disseminating His will/truth to Cain and Cain is then choosing the way he wants to act upon that truth.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
Gen 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

God's authority and power never ends and man's ability to choose God at anytime never ends.

God does not limit man in his ability to choose whether he wants to be dependent on Him or Satan. In fact, God wants to give man all the information he needs in order to make an informed choice. God has provided information in many, many ways to man, with the ultimate information being the Gospel. Romans 1 shows other ways that God has given information to men. Cain certainly knew the difference, but chose to reject God's way.

If we believe that God programmed Cain to choose the way he did, then we are a very sad lot, serving a very strange God.

Jesus knew Zachaeus' name because, uh,,,He was God.

Jesus never told me about repentance, I just knew I wanted to turn to Him and away from everything not of Him.

Jesus knew their thoughts.

Luke 6:7-9
And the scribes and the Pharisees watched him, to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath, so that they might find a reason to accuse him. But HE KNEW THEIR THOUGHTS, and he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come and stand here.” And he rose and stood there. And Jesus said to them, "I ask you, is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to destroy it?”

Saying what His Father tells Him to say does not mean that He does not have knowledge of Zack's name.

He did not say, I only know what my Father teaches Me.

Luke 7:22
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

"His name, "Immanuel, God with us" (7:14). Unveiled glory would have blinded the humanity he came to serve and to save.

Neither Christ's divinity, nor His Divine attributes, nor the use of those attributes, nor His glory, was in any way emptied. Rather, these were "concealed under a veil of flesh." There is a distinct difference between emptying and concealing. If I were on a family vacation, and if I carried all my money in my wallet, I'd much prefer that my wallet be concealed than emptied. There is a big difference

But even during this third time period Christ did reveal His glory. Luke writes: "And some eight days after these sayings, it came about that He took along Peter and John and James, and went up to the mountain to pray. And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming. And behold, two men were talking with Him; and they were Moses and Elijah, who, appearing in glory, were speaking of His departure which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him. And it came about, as these were parting from Him, Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah' not realizing what he was saying." (Lk. 9:28-33)."

Read more about unbiblical views of KENOSIS
http://kenosis.info/index.shtml

Different topic:

if we yield to His will then we are citizens of His kingdom and have the full expectation of protection, provision and security while under His command

What kind of protection, provision and security are you referring to?

Those three words are perfect, but can you elaborate on the nature of them?

JFW, great answer on "provision, security and protection".

Let me just add that He does not just give us these things as impersonal commodities, the person of Jesus Christ is our provision, security (peace) and protection (Salvation) He is all we need and He wants us to be dependent on Him for everything.

Jehovah Shalom (Judges 6:24) The Lord our Peace

Jehovah-Jireh (Gen 22:14) The Lord our Provision

Jehovah Elohe Yeshuathi (Psalms 88:1) - The Lord our Protection (Salvation)

I look forward to talking with you sometime about what Jesus emptied Himself of. The tension and balance of Him being fully God and fully man (hypostatic union) is revealed in the scriptures.

Also, Christ cannot be a product. We are joined with the Person (not product) of Christ by His spirit. Sorry, you make it sound like a formula.

Yes, the fellowship in the Word has been good, lately. Slowing down a bit, for a season. Hopefully, a brief one as I have been enjoying the spiritual stimulation and encouragement. (Some trips coming up and some increased responsibilities). Will read daily. I do enjoy this community and always find something interesting in everyone's posts.

TMK wrote,

""JFW--
If the answer to your original question is "never" and "never" then God is the most supremely bored being in the universe. "

Your conclusion is the result of looking at God with the eyes of the flesh. I highly recommend a crash course on the Self Sufficiency of God.

Here's a postage stamp snapshot to get the ball rolling.

"Almighty God, just because He is almighty, needs no support. The picture of a nervous, ingratiating God fawning over men to win their favor is not a pleasant one; yet if we look at the popular conception of God, that is precisely what we see. Twentieth century Christianity has put God on charity. So lofty is our opinion of ourselves that we find it quite easy, not to say enjoyable, to believe that we are necessary to God. But the truth is that God is not greater for our being, nor would He be less if we did not exist. That we do exist is altogether of God’s free determination, not by our desert nor by divine necessity."

A W Tozer

marcmc

"In the beginning, God" (Gen. 1:1). There was a time, if "time" is could be called, when God, in the unity of His nature (though subsisting equally in three Divine Persons), dwelt all alone. "In the beginning, God." There was no heaven, where His glory is now particularly manifested. There was no earth to engage His attention. There were no angels to hymn His praises; no universe to be upheld by the word of His power. There was nothing, no one, but God; and that, not for a day, a year, or an age, but "from everlasting." During a past eternity, God was alone: self-contained, self-sufficient, self-satisfied; in need of nothing. Had a universe, had angels, had human beings been necessary to Him in any way, they also had been called into existence from all eternity. The creating of them when He did, added nothing to God essentially. He changes not (Mal. 3:6), therefore His essential glory can be neither augmented nor diminished.

God was under no constraint, no obligation, no necessity to create. That He chose to do so was purely a sovereign act on His part, caused by nothing outside Himself, determined by nothing but His own mere good pleasure; for He "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11). That He did create was simply for His manifestative glory. Do some of our readers imagine that we have gone beyond what Scripture warrants? Then our appeal shall be to the Law and the Testimony: "Stand up and bless the Lord your God forever and ever: and blessed be Thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise" (Neh. 9:5). God is no gainer even from our worship. He was in no need of that external glory of His grace which arises from His redeemed, for He is glorious enough in Himself without that. What was it moved Him to predestinate His elect to the praise of the glory of His grace? It was, as Ephesians 1:5 tells us, according to the good pleasure of His will.

A W Pink

marcmc

I was fortunate to track down a member from Bayview Glen Church in Toronto ( Tozer preached there at the end of is life ). He actually worked the sound table an made the recordings.

I think most of his tapes are available now but back then they were not. He made me copies of Tozer messages from his original reel to reels.

marcmc

Ephesians 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

marcmc

1 Peter 1:17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

marcmc

Romans 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

marcmc

I never get tired of hearing the explanations I hear about the few sample versus I just posted. The amount of bias, dislike, spin and mental juggling required to make them fit into the mind of man is astounding.

Reading through the posts here it is clear that my original statement of never and never needs a bit of explaining. I am not a hyper Calvinist, I do not see man as a robot and every single action that occurs on earth as under the complete active control of God. He is not a brooding deity with His thumb in every pie, peeking into every room and obsessing, prying, plying and dictating 24/7.

As the versus I posted with unmistakable clarity demonstrate, God did the planning, heavy lifting and architectural designing before one single atom outside Himself ever existed. The problem with the sovereignty of God and humans is we put it inside time! God is not inside time, He does not obey time, is not ruled by time and does not exercise His sovereignty according to time.

God acts according to His own good pleasure, He does what He wants, when He wants, however He wants. An action of God is right because it's an action of God. He is never hurried, never pressured and under no obligation. He is altogether free to plan, design and perform in the way that pleases Himself. He rejoices in Himself, enjoys Himself and is altogether pleased all the time by Himself.

So yes man can go for ice cream, walk his dog, make personal self directed decisions and decide 99% of his movements on earth. And at the same time God was, is and will forever be the sovereign Ruler of all and every single one of those actions and activities. But how can those two things be true at the same time (in time) happen without conflict or contradiction? The answer is surprisingly easy.

God in His wisdom predestiated a body for His Son and a temple for the Holy Spirit. And with an infinite number of designs, ideas and plans to chose from He chose the best one. He then from His position in infinity effortlessly looked through every single action, activity, result, consequence and effect that would occur inside His creation and Sovereignly decided which to permit and which to not. His will and Power are the determining Ruler of everything that angels, man and planets have ever done. He does not actively "in time" need to deal with these events because He did it ages ago. If I throw a ball, I pick it up and swing my arm and off it flys. It forms an arch and goes as far as gravity allows it. It does this of my free will but behind that God eons ago foresaw me throwing that ball and Sovereignly decided to let it happen without any interference. while other events like the second world war He decided "this far and no farther will Hitler go"

Events take place that God chose to intervene in and millions occur that He chose to do nothing about. But He did decide to do nothing about them and He decided inside His infinity not during the events occurring in time.

God in every single event that has ever occurred is 100% Sovereign and He exercised His Sovereignty before He created anything. Man inside time feels and thinks he is totally free but every action regardless of how insignificant was looked at and allowed by God. The actions that God did not allow are not seen or understood by the man himself unless God also Sovereignly chose to reveal that as well.

This is hated by the flesh and Christians who desire a God who is actively and imminently involved in time concerning every single thought and action they have or do. Almost the entire Church has a God involved 100% of the time in 100% of their day to day. That of course is why so many are fearful and indecisive seeking Gods inpute on every single thing they do. It also has made the Church look like bunch of people trying endlessly to get God to do things He is apparently not very interested in doing.

Let me stress that what I have said does not mean that God is totally Transendant alone. God loves His children, interacts with His children and His presence can be manifestly obvious to believers. His Sovereignty clearly includes His decision to participate in the outcome of certain things as a partner with His children with His direct and Immenant participation. But like everything else He decided to do that ages ago in His perfect Sovereign Will.

marcmc

A simple illustration that answers my "never and never" point is this.

Man and time is a ship. The Sovereignty of God determined that the ship would leave from New York city and arrive in London yet He tells very few people on the ship. The ship has open, limited and no access areas and people are moving all around the ship. You can move freely anywhere as you choose among the areas that access allows. All the time you have the sense of total freedom as there appears to be nothing limiting your movements in any way. It therefore appears that you have 100% free will and on the ship with few exceptions you do. But the ship is going to London and that is 100% under the power of the Sovereignty of God.

I have decided to not illustrate the dominance of the Law of Sin and Death that totally enslaves every decision of fallen man and limits even the seeming free choices he thinks he makes. Fallen man is a total slave to his sinful nature inside a barbed wire compound of sin and death but this is obviously also inside God Sovereignty and the decisions He made before time existed as well.

FTR this is why the "free will", "make your decision for Christ" Gospel gets laughed at and why the reform message face to face causes all the blood to instantly leave the face of the unsaved as conviction of sin hits them like a freight train. They consider for the very first time in their lives that the decision is not what they will do about Jesus but instead what will Jesus do about them. In other words maybe they are simply a passenger on a ship who's course was not picked by themselves. You can actually see that "Uh oh" look come upon them.

marcmc

There is zero conflict between the Sovereignty of God and the apparent freedom of man. They take place at two completely seperate times.

One happens today and the other happened ages ago.

Gods Sovereignty "never" ends because it went before everything else and cannot be changed in Gods eternity future.

Mans free will "never" begins because his every choice has already been allowed or disallowed by the Sovereignty of God in the eons of Gods eternity past.

marcmc

TMK,

You are very much mistaken. True prayer is a response to God. This is one of those areas where the Will of God chose parcipitation with man. God has desired fellowship with man and prayer is the greatest single action we do that facilitates that fellowship.

99% of prayer is not answered becaused it is asked amiss. It is born from the flesh or desire to recieve something from God that is notin His will. Sometimes like Paul asking for the thorn to be removed the reason is given and other times it is not.

Prayers that are answered are prayers that are given to your heart from God, spoken in response back to Him and granted because they are His initiated will.

Jesus said "I only say what I hear the Father say" this included His prayers and as you know every single one was granted. When God taught me this everything changed. My requests in prayer shrunk to next to nothing but every one of them was granted because they were born from His Will for myself or another.

marcmc

JFW,

The scriptures are laser clear on that point.

1 Corinthians 15:12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

TMK,

Many Christians like Rees Howell are given a ministry of prayer. God literally fills their hearts with the will, grace and list of things to be born through prayer. But they came from Gods will.

Sadly many try to do in the flesh what God gave a man or woman as a ministry and they burn themselves out without any fruit thinking any believer could do what Rees Howells did if they persisted long and hard enough. It's tragic.

marcmc

It should be obvious that I'm referring to the prayers of inter session and request. You can go to Him and tell Him you love and adore Him and you will bask in His presence joyfully all day long.

Luke 10:25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

marcmc

The spiritual light of the life of Jesus Christ shines in the spiritual darkness (1:5) of the world-system (John 3:19; 8:12; 12:35,46; I John 1:5,6; 2:8,9,11), the system governed by "the god of this world’ (II Cor. 4:4). He has spawned the religious system that counterfeits the true attributes of The Lord Jesus and His Body.

Luke 4:43And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Jesus did not say the Gospel of Salvation. He said the Gospel of The Kingdom.

JFW the Kingdom is my favorite subject and has been my focus for last 4 years. But it should be another thread.

marcmc

I will be gone for most of the day, I will check in later.

marcmc

Great point, dspks. The Word does not say the mother of all living on planet earth, but rather "the mother of ALL living."

Ha, ha, ha!!!

You nailed it dspks!

NASA is desperate. They are doing their best to justify their own existence.

And seriously, could Eve be the mother of anything else but a human?

If these scientists would only turn to Jesus Christ in faith and start to read His word, all their questions would be answered.

1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2015/11/06/the-big-blood-moon-fizzle/