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This is my most important post on SI – please read

S
sermonindex

Yes, in my opinion this is my most important post so far here on SI! Why? I will show the root cause of our all our failures in experiencing the TRUE LIFE OF CHRIST daily.

I have been in the school of the law and self effort after embracing Jesus Christ as My Savior.

The purpose of the school of the law and death was to strip me of ALL my works of the law and to strip me from all self effort. The only way to graduate is to be totally dead to all self effort. I was in this school for over 40 years on the sin - confess merry-go-round and the dedicate and rededicate cycle that never worked. Sometimes it appeared that I had victory as THE RESULT OF MY OWN EFFORTS but this lasted only for a very short season. And even then I was proud of MY EFFORTS and I became very critical and judgmental toward others, thinking that I was better then them for my actions.

I got stuck in this school for so long that I gave up all hope but as a result I fell into some very serious sins. I came to the place where I realized that I needed faith so I tried to get it but could not because I still regarded myself as my point of origin and source of life.

I knew my sins were forgiven, but I always failed to live and experience Christ's Life. I found out that the harder I tried to live this life the more I failed. Then I was forced to come to the conclusion that me living this was impossible for me to do. I began to realize the reason why I could not live it was that God never even intended me to do that by my own efforts or energy.

I regarded myself as my point of origin and source of life. I found that I could not produce the life of God out of me. I couldn't bring God's life out of me. How was I going to do that? As long as I saw myself as the source of life, though, I had to keep trying. Until one day after countless failures and defeats, Jesus impressed to my spirit: "I am your life. I am the only life acceptable to the Father. I not only want to forgive you; I want to live the life in you. I want to be your life."

So my question was, how do I change the point origin and source of my own life? I knew that my own efforts that it was impossible for me to surrender or to change my source just by the power of my will. Self can NEVER surrender it self.

This is when my eyes were opened to see that this was something that God had already done for me and in. I saw it was ONLY by HIS doing that I was in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:30 New American Standard Bible (©1995) "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."

God in Christ did what the law and all my own efforts could NEVER accomplish.

I was facing the same issues that Hudson Taylor experienced. Here is part of what he wrote to his sister.
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"All the time I felt assured that there was in Christ all I needed, but the practical question was how to get it out. He was rich, but I was poor; He was strong, but I was weak. I knew full well that there was in the vine, in the root, the stem, abundant fatness; but how to get it into my puny little branch was the question.

As gradually the light dawned on me, I saw that faith was the only prerequisite to laying hold of His fullness and making it my own. But I had not this faith . . . I strove for it, but it would not come; I tried to exercise it, but in vain. Seeing more and more the wondrous supply of grace laid up in Jesus, the fullness of our precious Savior - my helplessness and guilt seemed to increase. Sins committed appeared but as trifles compared with the sin of unbelief which was their cause, which could not or would not take God at His word, but rather made Him a liar! Unbelief was, I felt, the damning sin of the world - yet I indulged in it. I prayed for faith but it did not come. What was I to do?

When my agony of soul was at its height, a sentence in a letter from dear McCarthy was used to remove the scales from my eyes, and the Spirit of God revealed the truth of our oneness with Jesus as I had never seen it before. McCarthy, who had been much exercised by the same sense of failure, but saw the light before I did, wrote (I quote from memory): "But how to get faith strengthened? Not by striving after faith, but by resting on the Faithful One."

As I read I saw it all! "If we believe not, He remains faithful." I looked to Jesus and saw (and when I saw, oh, how joy flowed) that He had said, "I will never leave you." "Ah, here is rest!" I thought. "I have striven in vain to rest in Him. I'll strive no more. For has He not promised to abide with me - never to leave me, never to fail me?" And Dearie, He never will!
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I was in this exact position also. " I felt, the damning sin of the world - yet I indulged in it. I prayed for faith but it did not come. What was I to do?”
Now here is the answer to that question. Look the real power of the new covenant.

Jer. 32:39-40, "I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good, and I will put the fear of me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from me."

Ezek. 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. Moreover I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances."

Deut. 30:6, "And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou may live."

Jer. 24:7, "And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart."

The Good news of the Gospel is that Christ crucified you with Him and you were buried with Him. When you were born again, you just experienced the reality of what God had already accomplished for you. You began to realize that the old you died and now instead, you have Christ's Life.

We were made one with Him by an irrevocable act of God that made you in perfect union with Him. We have been made one with God. We are truly one with Him and we can experience His Divine continual presence and power. He has taken away our old stony heart and has now given us His heart. We now have a heart of flesh, a tender, living, loving heart.

We now have His Life within us. It is by His Almighty Power and Love, breathing and working in us, that He makes the promise true, "I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU WILL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS." We now have a heart in perfect harmony with Him, a life and walk in His way - God is engaged in Covenant to work in us. HE UNDERTAKES FOR OUR PART IN THE COVENANT AS MUCH AS FOR HIS OWN.

Yes this is the true secret of experiencing the reality of Christ in your life.

Now you may know these facts but this promise is NOT AUTOMATIC. Now, just because you know these facts or believe in them does not mean you will ever truly experience the reality of Christ living and abiding in you.

What is needed is for us to place our ALL OF OUR CONFIDENCE in this message to us. LOOK HIS MESSAGE to you NOW! "Moreover I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.”

This is God's answer and solution to the question, "how do I change the point origin and source of my own life?”

Here is the key to living the Christian Life - it does not depend on you but on Christ Himself living and abiding within you.

Yes - you MUST place you confidence in Him but that is EASY once you see Christ's faithfulness to you!!

So now, just stop all your efforts in the attempt to get faith, it is a FREE gift of God. Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" You can place your confidence in HIS message to you because in contain and supplies the faith that is required. You can grab hold of HIS HOLD ON YOU. You must count on it and expect it daily. This is NOT SOME PASSIVE STATE. It is a total reliance of God in Christ to perform and bring it to pass according to HIS WORD!!

LOOK AT CHRIST'S FAITHFULNESS TO YOU!! You can truly expect Him to BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE moment by moment because you have HIS LIFE WITH IN YOU and NOW He IS YOUR LIFE. Yes - He now lives and abides within you and He will NEVER leave you or forsake you. You can expect and count on the fact that the Holy Spirit will take the things of Christ and make them known and real to you moment by moment.

Do you see what Taylor Hudson saw? "As I read I saw it all! "If we believe not, He remains faithful." I looked to Jesus and saw (and when I saw, oh, how joy flowed) that He had said, "I will never leave you." "Ah, here is rest!" I thought. "I have striven in vain to rest in Him. I'll strive no more. For has He not promised to abide with me - never to leave me, never to fail me?" And Dearie, He never will!"

Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Here is the key "And being fully persuaded that, what GOD had promised, God was able also to perform." Abraham considered his body dead and knew that he had no hope in his own abilities or faith to make this promise happen. His confidence was not in his flesh or anything thing he could do. All of his confidence was placed in God and his message being fully persuaded that, what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

So where is your confidence? Is it in your own abilities to trust or somehow work up faith or love that is required? You must realize that you are completely dead to your own efforts and you can never place any hope in yourself whatsoever.

You can NOW place all of your confidence in HIM. You can say - "I am fully persuaded that I cannot by human strength and will obey or please God. I have no plea of holiness. I am without strength, and I can do nothing in my own ability. My sin is too powerful, the chains too heavy. I am too wicked to free myself. I need a miracle, and I need a helper. All I can do now is cry, Abba, Father."

T
TMK

Tuc-

What percentage of true Christians do you believe have discovered this "secret?" I only use the word secret because that is word you used.

Thanks.

S
sermonindex

I have no idea but I think that this number is now increasing daily.

Paul used the word secret.

Rom 16:25, "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began."

M
makrothumia

Hi TUC,

I have no doubt that those believers for whom you are burdened to help will be greatly enriched in the grace of our Lord if they receive the truths you have consistently sought to share. I commend you for your diligence.

Does this burden from which you share stem from the believers in your own circle? Does this struggle you describe so well originate from observations in the live of those in the church you attend? If not, can you elaborate on why this message has become such a focus for you? I recognize that it springs from your own experience, but is there more in your present observations that compels you to share this theme?

Makrothumia

T
TMK

I find this very strange- I can read and re-read the OP (and others by tuc as well). I understand the words, I understand the scriptures.

But I still have no idea what the practical application is.

It sounds like the intimation is that if we pray that we have no strength to do anything and if we just pray "I am fully persuaded that I cannot by human strength and will obey or please God. I have no plea of holiness. I am without strength, and I can do nothing in my own ability. My sin is too powerful, the chains too heavy. I am too wicked to free myself. I need a miracle, and I need a helper. All I can do now is cry, Abba, Father" then all of a sudden we will never sin again and have no desire to do so.

I don't get it- it sounds like pie in the sky to me.

S
sermonindex

A true Christian is one who has Christ living and reigning in them. Jesus Christ becomes this person’s life and source from all of their actions flow. Christ is their ONLY hope of glory.

Christ's Life is the very core and essence of true Christianity. Having Christ's Life is the only true foundation and source of acceptable spiritually.

Just saying that prayer will not do it. You must put your total confidence in God and His message to you totally relying on His ability to perform what He says.

T
TMK

But that sounds like self-hypnotism.

S
sermonindex

Really? Did Abraham use self-hypnotism when He believed God's message to him?

Romans 4:3-5, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Here is the key "And being fully persuaded that, what GOD had promised, God was able also to perform." Abraham considered his body dead and knew that he had no hope in his own abilities or faith to make this promise happen. His confidence was not in his flesh or anything thing he could do. All of his confidence was placed in God and His message being fully persuaded that, what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

T
TMK

That's the problem. If it was that easy, every Christian would have the type of victory you are describing.

Unless you are saying that it is difficult to have that kind of complete faith.

C
crusader

Hi tuc

i am so blessed with this post, i have had a similar walk but it hadn't been fully revealed to me as it has for you. what use to really bother me was when i was in a downward spiral in my life hating myself for not being a good christian. God would bless me and yet when i thought i was being a good christian, life would get messy.

I really struggled with this and didn't understand what God was doing. About 2 years ago while life was at its worst for me, i walked along the beach and as the holy spirit spoke to me i could see that all of who i am has no value towards Gods righteousness and grace. there was nothing i could do in the flesh that would warrant God to do any blessing towards me apart from that he chose to do this because of the covenant between Christ Jesus and me.

as i sat in this state of worthlessness i felt the burdens of the law falling of my shoulders and the weight lifted of my shoulders for all the works i was trying to do in the flesh. i except Gods blessings in my life now, not because of me but because of the loving God i serve. Satan does on many occasions try to steer me back into works without faith but this knowledge of my relationship with God over rules this.

I have only met a hand full of brothers and sisters that have been through this and it has always been a powerful fellowship when we where together.

C
crusader

Hi All

I just wanted to add that i believe as Christians we must come through the law to understand Grace. In my experiences we can get stuck in the law and never enter the understanding or freedom in Grace. Being under the law can lead to a character of self righteousness as God revels our vile deeds and nature. Satan wiles the believer in looking at the own sin towards others. This can be a very justifying position to sit in for our flesh, thinking we are a good christian for this. especially as family members, the church and community can see the change on our flesh and make positive comments.

In completion of the Law is where we come to the point that we are completely at the mercy of Gods grace and what he gives us everyday for for our needs. Coming into Grace is the final walk in our journey and the deeper relationship of love between ourselves and our understanding of who God is and what he has done for us.

the time frame of this various between brothers and sisters in Christ. I am understanding Grace now but have a long way to go to be mature in this are of my spiritual walk.

S
sermonindex

It is impossible for any person to enter by self effort. But Now By God's doing we are in Christ! YOU ARE INCLUDED!

Look at what crusader wrote

"I really struggled with this and didn't understand what God was doing. About 2 years ago while life was at its worst for me, i walked along the beach and as the holy spirit spoke to me i could see that all of who i am has no value towards Gods righteousness and grace. there was nothing i could do in the flesh that would warrant God to do any blessing towards me apart from that he chose to do this because of the covenant between Christ Jesus and me."

here is the key - "there was nothing i could do in the flesh that would warrant God to do any blessing towards me apart from that he chose to do this because of the covenant between Christ Jesus and me."

Look at the Covenant and what God's says He has done, is doing now and what He will do in the future.

LOOK AT CHRIST'S FAITHFULNESS TO YOU!! You can truly expect Him to BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE moment by moment because you have HIS LIFE WITH IN YOU and NOW He IS YOUR LIFE. Yes - He now lives and abides within you and He will NEVER leave you or forsake you. You can expect and count on the fact that the Holy Spirit will take the things of Christ and make them known and real to you moment by moment.

Christ actually does this IN you when you simply believe in His message to you.

It is NOT the result of self effort, self will or some form of positive thinking.

It is HIS LIFE being revealed and manifested within you DAILY.

S
sermonindex

I'm curious,

What law are you guys talking about?

marcmc

S
sermonindex

From my point of view I am the Chief of sinners. Yes I was involved in some VERY SERIOUS SINS. Let me make this clear - all my efforts, willpower, works to somehow please God FAILED MISERABLY.

Now I count all these attempts as pure rubbish and garbage. It was God who put me in the school of the law and death to strip me of any confidence that I had in myself.

At the foot of the cross we were all sinners with equal standing. Now, while we were still sinners and ungodly, God in Christ reconciled all of us to Him and united us in union with Him.

Christ Himself has QUALIFIED us to be partakers of His Divine Nature. He did this because of the Covenant agreement not by anything we have done, are doing or will ever do.

Pride is not possible - because all of this is based on God's doings and not mine. All I can do is boast in HIM.

Now look at the Covenant that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit has made together that CONCERNS YOU.

Gods covenant is for you now - you can get a hold of it NOW. Here is what David Wilkerson wrote.

Psalms 89 verse 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. That's the Father - I'm going to make you higher than the kings of the earth when you take on this call. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure forever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments, if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments, I will visit the transgression with the rod, their iniquity with stripes.

Nevertheless - this is for you and me - this is the promise for the seed, He's making this to his Son, he's saying to his Son, nevertheless, my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant I will not break nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Glory be to God!

Now we are to lay hold of the covenant, lay hold of the promises of God whereby we're made partakers of His Divine nature. Let this - jump into the stream and flow with it right now because this is the word of the living God. God said to his own Son, I make a covenant with you, I will make you higher than all the kings of the earth.

For His part, Christ promised the Father perfect obedience, first on his own behalf. Now it gets even better. Psalms 40. Folks, look this way please. I want to show you now that Jesus says first of all, I am going to be obedient to you. Father, I'm going to be obedient. He's talking now here in this passage about his own personal obedience to the Heavenly Father. Verses 7 and 8 of Psalm 40: Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God, yea thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation, I have not refrained my lips. It says, Then said I, lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written, I delight to do thy will O God.

Now look at me please. This is God's pledge, this is Christ's pledge, this is His part of the covenant, His part of the agreement. He said, I pledge to you Father, my Father, I, then promised. It is written of me. He's talking about himself. Now I am going to be totally obedient.

Now folks, this is exactly what happened. Jesus totally obeyed his Father's will. It always has to do with the heart and the will. He said, I have completely surrendered my will. It's written of me, I am going to obey you, Heavenly Father. He gave the Father perfect obedience.

I want - you have to see this. That the Lord Jesus makes a pledge of total absolute obedience. This fulfills the law. Every command has been fulfilled. Everything that God required of his law, that's all fulfilled now in
Christ Jesus. But then he goes on to cover you and I our whole lifetime. He makes such an incredible deal for you and me! What an agreement he made on our behalf! What a deal! What a covenant! It's a better covenant than the Old Covenant. Made on better promises and here's that better promise.

Listen to me. I'm going to make a statement now that on the first hearing you'll think it's error. You say it's too good to be true. I can't believe it. Nope.

Now folks, when Jesus was born in the manger what did they sing? Glad tidings. Glad tidings. This is glad tidings. God says, not only Father, am I going to obey, but I'm going to engage not only for my obedience, but for the obedience of all my seed, all my seed. I'm engaging myself not only to fulfill obedience, not only will I be totally obedient to You, but I am going to engage now for all my children.

Look at chapter 16, verses 2 and 3: O my soul, thou hast said unto the Lord, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee. What he's saying, Lord, this obedience - this goodness, it's coming to you not just on my behalf alone. It's not just for me that I'm obedient. But for the saints that are in the earth and to the excellent in whom is all my delight. Jesus said, I sanctify myself that they may be sanctified. He's saying, from now on Lord, I am providing for the obedience of all my family.

Remember what Jesus said to you and to me and to all his disciples? You can do nothing on your own. He said, without me you can't do anything. But with me you can do all things. He said, get into the covenant. Depend wholly on me. You just trust in me and you trust in my obedience that I've given to the Father was a perfect obedience.

You can never present to Him a perfect obedience on your own. Come simply by faith now and say, Jesus, you have promised no matter what I'm going through, I'm under covenant. You said you would take me by the hand. Father, I'm in trouble. Father, I've got a lust I can't handle.

Father, I've got problems in my home. The Lord said, reach out your hand, put out your hand, I'll hold your hand.

He said, I will put my fear into your hearts that you shall not depart from me because you're under covenant. I'll put my fear in your heart. Don't try to produce it. You just put your hand in mine, you trust my obedience, you trust my righteousness, you just believe, accept my promise. Reach out your hand, lay hold of the covenant. He said, I'll put my fear in your hearts, I will remember your sin no more. I'll write my law on your hearts, I will make you to know me from the greatest even unto the least.

God is saying, I know what you're going through but I made an agreement to be responsible for you. He said, and My Son ratified that covenant with his own blood. He can't break it because the one who made the covenant with the Father is already at the right hand of the Father. It's all finished. He can't lie.

Can't you get a hold of this now in your spirit? And hold this up before all the forces of hell and say, devil, I am in covenant, I have not yet arrived. I am still working. I know that if I sin I am going to be held responsible because He's going to put a rod to my back. He's going to do it in love though. Many, many times I've spanked my children, but then I hugged them and I spanked them because I love them.

Your very best obedience of the flesh is not acceptable to God, but faith gets you into the covenant. And once you're in covenant, you obey God not to be accepted but because you're accepted. And then the obedience you offer to Him is a gift of love because you're in covenant.

He said, if you love me you'll obey me. How can you not love a father who looks at your failure and your sin and your battle. He doesn't come to beat you down or cast you under the law. He said, I've made an agreement that's everlasting, I cannot lie. I made an oath to my Son. And when you're in Christ, I can no more cast you aside than I could cast my own Son aside who sits at my right hand. It's that sure. It's that sure. Hallelujah!

Now you go to Him and say, Father, this is what my despair brought me to in the first place. I just gave up and said - you either give up and run back to the old life because trying is going to get you into despair and you're going to give up.

But folks, that's what the Lord wants, He wants you just to give up instead of running.

He said, just reach out your hand. He said, I will hold you by your hand, and I will keep you. I will be responsible for you. And that's why Jesus died and he went into hell and the Lord said, it's covenant time.

I've made my Son a promise, that no devil, no demon, nothing of sin or lust can destroy him, and he sent the Holy Ghost in and the Holy Ghost pulled him out of hell, out of the grave!

God kept covenant with his Son. And you know when you come by faith, you see, Jesus is in glory now. The covenant has been fulfilled; he's fulfilled his part of the covenant. But now you and I are seated with Christ in heavenly places. That means clearly that he is keeping covenant with you and me, the seed of Christ. I thank God, He isn't going to let you go. I don't care what you're going through.

Saul - murderer, persecutor - the Lord says, no, I'm not going to let you go. I'm going to get a hold of you and once I get a hold of you, Paul, I'll never let go.

T
TMK

So tuc-

When you finally "got" this revelation and somehow took hold of it, did your desire for the "serious sins" as you call them just disappear? Was there any further temptation? Was there anything you had to resist?

The reason I ask this is that resistance sounds like self-effort and you say self-effort is not required nor does it work.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, I suppose) the Bible tells us that we must resist which seems to be an act of our will.

It may be helpful if you would explain exactly what you do (or don't do) when you are tempted to sin.

I
InTheLight

Tuc,

Thanks for sharing this, we rejoice with you in the victory that is in Christ. Of course, a winning life is a fruit bearing life. Overcoming is only a small part and a negative part of life. We are called to bear fruit in character and in service if Christ is our life. And we will do that because Christ is our life: He cannot deny Himself. He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister.

And may the Lord help us to remember that Christ Himself is better than any of His blessings, better than power, and victory, and service that He gives.

In Christ,

R
rainydaygirl

Is what your saying is the temptation to sin is still there
But the reality of the situation is knowing I can not resist
In my own strength? I believe God gives us all that we need
To resist sin but we must respond to Him through prayer and faith.
Jesus is a person, alive and well. He wants relationship with us.
Just my thoughts
Rdg

S
sermonindex

Yes there is temptation - even Christ was tempted.

No. there is no Magic formula to follow or even steps to take when one is tempted because if there was, you would depend on that and you doing it rather than God.

When a temptation comes I Immediately go to the THRONE OF GRACE.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This I can BOLDLY do with NO SELF EFFORT do BASED ENTIRELY on what God in Christ has already provided for me and in me.

I do not try to suppress or deal with this temptation by an act of my will but I count and expect on the LIFE OF CHRIST who is actually dwelling with in me to both to will and to will of HIS Good Pleasure in it. I remind myself and God of HIS COVENANT that concerns me. He said He would CAUSE ME TO WALK IN HIS STATUTES so I expect Him to perform what He what He said.

Now I am being saved BY CHRIST LIFE within me. It can not count on me to perform anything. I rely on Him to preform it because of the COVENANT He has made.

It is not hard, any Christian can do once they see and understand the Covenant. You can do it now.

S
sermonindex

"We are called to bear fruit in character and in service if Christ is our life. And we will do that because Christ is our life: He cannot deny Himself. He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister."

YES THIS IS TRUE - I agree 100% This is what I am attempting to say.

JESUS CHRIST is my LIFE and I do bear fruit as a result of that.

S
sermonindex

1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise WITH THE SAME MIND: for he that hath suffered in the flesh HATH CEASED FROM SIN;

There is a connection between entering into His Rest and ceasing from your own works of righteousness (sin).

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also HATH CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS, as God did from his.

Paul knows man's propensity to work religiously for good standing with God, to strive and labour to be acceptable to the Lord (as he did as a Pharisee and as Cain did), so he uses this term (work, labour) now to indicate what we should be working.

Heb 4:11 LET US LABOUR therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The "promised land of rest",
.
.

"For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you." (Deu 12:9)

.
.
did not provide rest.

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, IT IS A PEOPLE THAT DO ERR IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. (Psa 95:10-11)

They did not understand His ways is a big key.

All of the pictorial types of "rest" in the OT were pointing to Jesus Christ and the "rest" that can only be found in Him.

We have to rest in His sufficiency. Resting from religious performance.

Getting back to "suffering in the flesh and ceasing from sin."

Think - "No cross, No Christ"

"arm yourselves likewise WITH THE SAME MIND". We confess that we have the "mind of Christ" and if you do, then the Cross is active in your life and if the Cross is active then your flesh is suffering (not getting it's way) and if your flesh is not actively controlling influencing you then you are ceasing from sin.

There is other sin besides religious works of self-righteousness. Now, let's read the next few verses of 1 Pet 4.
"That he no longer should live the rest of his time IN THE FLESH TO THE LUSTS OF MEN, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:" (1 Pet 4:2-4)

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wayneman

Thanks for posting this. Here is the full text of HT's letter:

https://thedeepertruths.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/a-letter-from-j-hudson-taylor-to-his-sister-amelia/

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yuehan

Thanks Tuc for sharing how you learnt to laid hold of Jesus' life, which is available to all Christians. Indeed, it is about having *confidence* in Him... I trust your testimony will be a blessing to many as it has been to me.

It is always great to read living epistles (2 Cor 3:3), and I've also enjoyed reading about Crusader's journey with God in this thread.

InTheLight: And may the Lord help us to remember that Christ Himself is better than any of His blessings, better than power, and victory, and service that He gives.

Amen!!!!

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sermonindex

I do not consider nor do I claim that I have arrived or attained anything. To me this is only the very start of my continuous walk with Christ. There is so much more that I have not yet seen but my confidence and trust is totally In Him because I know I am dead to my own abilities to preform anything. I expect that HE will preform it according to His word

Phip 3:8-14, "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

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twayneb

tuc can disagree if I have this wrong, but God has shown me something similar.

I remember when God gave me a revelation of James 4:7. Submit yourselves therefore unto God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. So often I tried to resist the devil, without truly submitting myself to God. The question I had was, what does that look like to submit myself to God. In reading Romans 6, I found the answer to my question. I have absolutely no ability to resist the devil in myself. However, through Christ, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, I have that power and that authority. I have every ability to choose to sin. But if I, like Paul, can reckon myself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto Christ, then the life that I now live, I live through HIm and not through my own self effort. So the powerlessness that is in my flesh is overcome by the power that is in my spirit through the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate the post dealing with laboring to enter into His rest. He fulfilled the keeping of the Sabbath. He is my sabbath rest. I labor to keep myself connected to the vine from which the fruit I bear obtains its source. When my labor is focused there, I don't have to strive and labor to keep myself from sin.

In other words, I can work in my flesh to gin up enough strength to overcome temptation, usually fail, and bear little fruit. What a struggle. This is legalism. Or, I can labor to stay connected to the vine. I can labor to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and the result will be the victory I have been seeking all along. This is relationship with God and victory.

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tuc, we started a conversation we never finished.

Here is a thought for you. What Law are Christians talking about? What is it, where did they get it?

marcmc

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Double post

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by twayneb on 2015/10/12 10:03:21

tuc can disagree if I have this wrong, but God has shown me something similar.

I remember when God gave me a revelation of James 4:7. Submit yourselves therefore unto God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you. So often I tried to resist the devil, without truly submitting myself to God. The question I had was, what does that look like to submit myself to God. In reading Romans 6, I found the answer to my question. I have absolutely no ability to resist the devil in myself. However, through Christ, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, I have that power and that authority. I have every ability to choose to sin. But if I, like Paul, can reckon myself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto Christ, then the life that I now live, I live through HIm and not through my own self effort. So the powerlessness that is in my flesh is overcome by the power that is in my spirit through the Holy Spirit.

I appreciate the post dealing with laboring to enter into His rest. He fulfilled the keeping of the Sabbath. He is my sabbath rest. I labor to keep myself connected to the vine from which the fruit I bear obtains its source. When my labor is focused there, I don't have to strive and labor to keep myself from sin.

In other words, I can work in my flesh to gin up enough strength to overcome temptation, usually fail, and bear little fruit. What a struggle. This is legalism. Or, I can labor to stay connected to the vine. I can labor to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and the result will be the victory I have been seeking all along. This is relationship with God and victory.

Amen, twayneb and might I add:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

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twayneb

I might add, about the law. The old covenant, the law that God gave through Moses, was a law of outward works, of the flesh. It was contained in carnal (fleshly) ordinances. We relied on our own strength and the fear of the consequences (often literal death) in order to keep us on the straight and narrow. If we thought we did well, then we had confidence toward God. If we thought we did not do well, our conscience condemned us and we did not have confidence toward God. All the law could ever minister in our lives was death. An attempt to please God based on our own efforts is, by definition, legalism, and it leads to bondage.

The law of the spirit of life, the new covenant, is about a spirit that is recreated, reborn, by the Spirit of God. We experience victory by the power of the Holy Spirit, divine enablement, or what we might define as the grace of God. We live holy lives, not because we are struggling to abide by some external law, but because being plugged into the vine brings an internal government to our lives. Christ IN me, the hope of glory. And God's power through me allows me to do what I could never do motivated by the fear of the consequences of the law. This is why Paul said that Christ delivered us from the fear of death that we had always been in bondage to.

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twayneb,

The Law was the Law of the covenant. A covenant that was made with a single, elect race of people. Unless your a Jew that's not you!

The reason so many Christians get snagged in this area is because they are determined to fulfill the Law that was never spoken to them in as many versions as there are people.

I deal with this all the time when speaking to Athiests. It is a painful process to get them to see that the 10 commandments was not written to them. They hate them and yet at the same time will move heaven and earth to make them apply to all humanity.

There was a ceremony that a gentile could go through to convert and be included in the Old Covenant but unless you went through that ceremony your an alien from that Covenant. Christians fail to see that the second you lift a finger to obey any law other than the Perfect Law of Liberty your smoked by the law of Sin and Death. Your effort actually activates it increasingly against yourself. It is like a noose that tightens the harder you wrestle. It's not Satan.

Romans 7:11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me

Paul could not have said it any clearer. Not only did they never apply to Gentiles but they were nailed to the Cross with Jesus no longer to be a dividing wall. It's called a wall of partition because that's what it was. The Jews were separated from all other people's because they alone had the law and the covenant. For the New to come the Old had to be put totally away. And yet what do we do to a new covert on day one? We hand him the list of fleshly ordinances jumbled together by our Judeo-Christian mumbo jumbo.

Ephesians 2:11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

marcmc

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One flock and one shepherd - from The Better Covenant by Ron Bailey

In the work of the cross two things have become one. Not in Ezekiel's hands but through nail-pierced hands. From two 'old' things one 'new' thing has emerged. As a result of the work of the cross God has been able to start all over again with a 'new man' and in that new man Jew and Gentile meet without distinction as God's one, new, people. Paul makes reference to the cross breaking down a middle wall of separation. Many have seen this as a reference to the balustrade in Herod's temple that separated Jew and Gentile and had inscribed on it the ominous words "Whoever is captured will have himself to blame for his subsequent death". This separated the 'Court of Israel" from the 'Court of the Gentiles'. I want to unpack this idea to understand just what Paul means when he says Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation.

In a parallel passage in Colossians he says; And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Col 2:13-14 NKJV. Notice how he switches pronouns from 'you' to 'us'. In what way were 'you Gentiles' different to 'we Jews'? The difference was that 'handwriting of requirements'. In other words the written demands of God in Sinai's covenant Law. In Galatians Paul says that the Law was "our" child-conductor to bring "us" to Christ. Here, in Colossians, the law is 'the handwriting of requirements' against "us". To the Galatians Paul says 'we' Jews are no longer under a child-conductor now that faith has come. To the Colossians Paul says 'the handwriting of requirements that was against us' has been taken out of the way.

It was the written code that created the real barrier between Jew and Gentile. It marked off the Sinai Covenant people as distinct from the whole earth and was a constant source of irritation and hostility between the Gentile and the Jew; an insurmountable barrier between Jew and Gentile. But in the cross that barrier of the 'hand-written requirements' has come to its end and God has made peace between the two. Now, says Paul, ...therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Eph 2:19-22 NKJV. That is the effect of a New Covenant; a new man, a new Israel, a new family of God, a new temple. Christ's death has fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law and now Jew and Gentile in Christ meet on common ground. Little wonder that Paul was so excited when God shared that secret.

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Great quote tuc,

The real beauty was the wisdom of God in the the true meaning an purpose of the Law was there all the way. But is now made visible in Christ, the second you see it your instantly free.

1 John 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Ephesians 2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Romans 8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the past tense in Romans 8:30

And of course the crowning jewel of the will of the Father and the work of our blessed Lord Jesus.

Ephesians 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Marcmc

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twayneb

The Law was the Law of the covenant. A covenant that was made with a single, elect race of people. Unless your a Jew that's not you!

The reason so many Christians get snagged in this area is because they are determined to fulfill the Law that was never spoken to them in as many versions as there are people.

marcmc: I understand what you are saying, and agree. Without entering into that covenant, a Gentile would have no hope of being right with God. So with the church. Outside of covenant, there is no hope. In other words, the Gentile believers often take the law that was given to Moses and say, "This is what I must do to please God and to be righteous in His sight." And, if it were not for Christ and the new covenant, this would be the case. So the law was not written for a Gentile, but yet it was. It was the only way to righteousness prior to Christ. The problem comes when believers adopt the law as a means of righteousness. They wind up putting their faith in the wrong covenant.

I find it interesting that you speak about the law and the ten commandments to atheists. You are right, they fall under Paul's explanation in Romans 2. They show the work of the law in their hearts and they do not even realize it.

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twaynb,

The law was never the way to rightousness. Through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

King David committed murder and adultery, both of these sins had death by stoning as the sentence under the law. So what did David find?

Psalm 51:1{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.} Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

Romans 3:1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

marcmc

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even Jesus Christ the man (the last Adam) was NOT justified by the law because "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

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Romans 13:8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love was always the out working of the Law. By allowing the Holy Spirit to keep our heart fixed on this one single Perfect Law of Liberty, your flesh is CRUSHED without any effort whatsoever.


marcmc

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Deut. 30:6,"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

This is what God did in the New Covenant.

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TMK

Remember the tower of Babel? It was built with identical bricks. The tower represented people under a totalitarian system, where all "individuals" are identical. That's the way the system of Communism used to work in the Soviet Union. Get rid of individuality and have everyone submitting to and working for the system. Don't do anything on your own. Let the state do all the work through you.

Now consider the building that Christ built. "... you are ... God's building." (1 Cor 3:9).

You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:5)

Unlike bricks, the stones that make up a building constructed from stones, are all unique. Each one is different from each of the others. There is a particular place in the building in which a particular stone is placed.

Each disciple of Christ is unique and fits into the body of Christ.

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body””Jews or Greeks, slaves or free””and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body.e would be the sense of smell? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be?
As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you.”
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.' ( 1 Cor 12: 13-27 ESV)

I remember once hearing, "Just quit struggling and let Christ use you as a hand uses a glove." Now a glove can do nothing of itself unless it is powered by a hand. But I learned that that is NOT how Christ works. He honors us as unique individuals. He wants to work in us with our cooperation. He will not do it alone, and we cannot do it alone. But together we CAN do it.

Paul wrote:
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2 Corinthians 6:1)

If we ask God to do everything through us, He won't. We'll be "receiving the grace of God in vain," that is, not at all.

But if we "work together with Him," that is cooperate with His enabling grace, then God and we will succeed in doing His will.

J
JFW

TMK wrote;
"Unlike bricks, the stones that make up a building constructed from stones, are all unique. Each one is different from each of the others. There is a particular place in the building in which a particular stone is placed."

This is good brother! Haven't thought about it that way (with the bricks) but I've noticed the same phenomenon in the scriptures. The Lord certainly appears to appreciate the diversity of His body and I'd say requires it for His body to be healthy.

I've also noticed the same passivity that seems to be suggested in brother Tuc's posts, tho I give him the benefit of the doubt as he has expressed (at length) his position and each time I felt it to be more passive than how the scriptures read to me. I more often than not come away wishing it was more balanced in the context of our co-laboring with Christ as it does seem to put everything on God to such an extent that we are not capable of co-laboring so I can appreciate your brick analogy.


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There is labour but this labour is THE RESULT of CHRIST BOTH WILLING AND DOING OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE within us.

Look what Paul said "striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

I do not know were you get the the idea that I teach passivity. Christ's Life and the Holy Spirit are always working and very active. Christ is the source of my faith and He is my live. His LIFE is always active.

Col. 1:18-29. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased he Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily."

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The Labour is THE result of our believing in HIM and His ability to both do will and do within us.

"the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power/"

Eph. 1:17-19, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power."

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makrothumia

Where do some get the idea that you advocate passivity?

Perhaps it is that there is the labor necessary to enter the rest that is missing?

Men like Hudson Taylor labored much before their discovery, as did Paul, and many other godly saints.

Without a doubt, they all came to see that perfection was beyond their ability, but the process of laboring to lay hold of eternal life is aggressive for its appropriate season.

Makrothumia

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Now I do think that my time laboring could have been shorter if I had been taught the things that I am sharing now.

There are many who are now still in the process of laboring to lay hold of this truth. Can they not take hold of God's provision to them as they hear it proclaimed?

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My journey to freedom was 7 years. And tuc is right if I had been taught this from the beginning it would have been more like 7 months.

marcmc

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TMK

As you know this is a website that promotes revival.

It would seem that we would would have revival if everyone was able to lay hold of what you are talking about because no one would be sinning.

How come more preachers are not preaching it? Is there some conspiracy to keep Christian folks in the dark?

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sermonindex

Yes everyone and anyone can lay hold of the Gospel!
There is no conspiracy. Many are preaching and teaching this. The number who proclaim this Gospel will grow.

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makrothumia

Perhaps we can help others shorten their time of labor, but waiting, suffering, striving have their wonderful purposes in God perfecting us.

We should not view the labor and agony as "bad", for it too has a wonderful purpose. We know matters deeply by comparison and contrast. We would never be able to fully appreciate "rest" without experiencing the agony of labor.

I rejoice with you in your own finding of His rest, and am blessed by your desire to help others experience it.

I agree with TMK that your expression of the process of entering is not always balanced or in harmony with the Lord's teaching and the words of His apostles.

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HE has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.\t

Yes God has given us everything that is necessary in Christ. His Grace gives us the ability to respond.

Peter 1:2-4, "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Let us not forget the Christ died for us WHILE we were yet sinners and without any strength whatsoever. God's plan of salvation was to rescue mankind from sin and the consequences of the 1st Adam. God in Christ has now brought us in union with Him

What I am saying is that this favor and grace is a GIFT from God and was not a result of any works that anyone can do.
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This favor was given to me BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST HAD ACCOMPLISHED ON THE CROSS AND HIS RESURRECTION. This is the ONLY reason why God found favor with me. While I was in my sins, He had favor on me but not by anything I did but based solely on the work of Christ.

He gave me this favor and the very faith that was required so I responded.

TO GOD GOES ALL THE GLORY!!

The true Christian life is very active and SPONTANEOUS because it is Christ's Life within us.

The true gospel is centered on what Christ has given to us and not on what we can give to Him.

I am an active participant in what God has accomplished in Christ. We need to see HIM and even this can not be an act of self effort.

The following words are from Charles Spurgeon's Morning and Evening Daily Readings (November 4). It clearly communicates what I now know to be true: "In Thy light shall we see light Psalm 36:9 No lips can tell the love of Christ to the heart till Jesus Himself shall speak within. Descriptions all fall flat and tame unless the Holy Ghost fills them with life and power; till our Immanuel reveals Himself within, the soul sees Him not. If you would see the Son, would you gather together the common means of illumination, and seek in that way to behold the orb of day? No, the wise man knoweth that sun must reveal itself, and only by its own blaze can that might lamp be seen. It is so with Christ. "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona," said He to Peter, "For flesh and blood has not revealed this unto thee."

Purify flesh and blood by any educational process you may select, elevate mental faculties to the highest degree of intellectual power, yet none of these can reveal Christ. The Spirit of God must come with power, and overshadow the man with His wings, and then in that mystic Holy of Holies the Lord Jesus must display Himself to the sanctified eye, as He does not to the purblind sons of men. Christ must be His own mirror. The great mass of this blear-eyed world can see nothing of the ineffable glories of Immanuel. He stands before them without form or comeliness, a root out of a dry ground, rejected by the vain and despised by the proud.

Only where the Spirit has touched the eye with the eye salve, quickened the heart with divine life, and educated the soul to a heavenly taste, only there is He understood. "To you that believe He is precious;" To you He is the Chief Cornerstone, the Rock of your salvation, your all and all; but to others He is "a Stone of stumbling and a Rock of offense." Happy are those to whom our Lord manifests Himself, for His promise to such is that He will make His abode with them. Oh Jesus, our Lord, our heart is open, come in, and go out no more forever. Show Thyself to us now! Favor us with a glimpse of Thine all-conquering charms.

Jesus Christ is our only hope\t

There is only ONE true foundation that we can trust in and relay fully on and that is what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us by Christ’s life, death and resurrection. Christ Himself is the only source of the repentance, love, faith, obedience, surrender, and justification. God was IN Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

2 Cor 5:18-19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:8-10 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

2 Cor. 5:14-5 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Col. 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Grace gives us the ability to respond but many frustrate this Gift of grace by their own self efforts and miss out on truly experiencing all what God has already accomplished for them and in them

J
JFW

Brother Tuc,
I mean no disrespect to you and have a great appreciation for your consistency and gentle ways..... Having said that (as you already kno) I am not a subscriber to reformed grace doctrines and as I've expressed before, your writings seem (to me) to have a lot of the same foundational beliefs. I understand you have told me personally that those are not your positions (Calvinism/universalism) but I can't help but "smell the same scent" in your writings, this isn't something I'm taking issue with as I have many reformed brothers with whom I fellowship.
Having said that I do find our position to be different in contrast to how you present it. I've noticed you primarily use the writings of Paul, where many errors have been birthed, i.e.; 2 Peter 3:16,. So that in itself makes me a bit leery as I like to see a balanced presentation from all the NT writers and not have a theory/doctrine based on one writer.
But I do love you brother and your heart for, love for the truth is very encouraging:)

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makrothumia wrote "Perhaps we can help others shorten their time of labor, but waiting, suffering, striving have their wonderful purposes in God perfecting us.

We should not view the labor and agony as "bad", for it too has a wonderful purpose. We know matters deeply by comparison and contrast. We would never be able to fully appreciate "rest" without experiencing the agony of labor."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree, while clearly the timing and growth in grace is a process it should not be a labour that requires the undoing of error.

Gods plan is not for His children to have a pile of baggage and bad teaching that must be unravelled before the truth can be planted.

marcmc

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JFW if you think Paul wrote his epistles your going to want to look into that. If Paul wrote his epistles our bibles are worthless.

The Holy Spirit is the single and only author of the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

marcmc

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Charles Spurgeon on detecting the voice of the devil:

"Now I will give the poor sinner a means of detecting Satan, so he may know whether his convictions are from the Holy Spirit, or merely the bellowing of hell in his ears. In the first place, you may always be sure that that which comes from the devil will make you look at yourselves and not at Christ. The Holy Spirit's work is to turn our eyes from ourselves to Jesus Christ, but the enemy's work is the very opposite. Nine out of ten of the insinuations of the devil have to do with ourselves… "You do not repent enough"" that is self. "You have got such a wavering hold of Christ" that is self. Thus the devil begins picking holes in us; whereas the Holy Spirit takes self entirely away, and tells us that we are "nothing at all, - but that "Jesus Christ is all in all."

"Nothing is to be trusted to but the finished work of Jesus Christ upon Calvary's bloody tree! No feelings, no emotion, no believing, no conversion, even, must ever be put into the place of that one eternal Rock of refuge””the blood and merit of Jesus Christ! Fly there, poor Soul! Whatever you are, or are not, fly there! Cast your guilty self on Christ and rest there, for there alone can you find salvation! Learn this lesson - not to trust Christ because you repent, but trust Christ to make you repent””not to come to Christ because you have a broken heart, but to come to Him that He may give you a broken heart - not to come to Him because you are fit to come, but to come to Him because you are unfit to come! Your fitness is your unfitness. Your qualification is your lack of qualification. You are to be nothing, in fact, and to come to Christ as nothing - and when you so come, then will repentance come!"

M
makrothumia

Brother Marc, I believe you have misinterpreted JFW's thoughts. Paul's writings are deep and Peter himself wrote that some misunderstand them. I am sure JFW believes Paul was guided by the Spirit when he wrote.

P
proudpapa

very good.

J
JFW

Brother Marc,
Ha! yes dear brother he (Paul) indeed wrote the epistles that bear his name,... and just as our dear brother Paul states himself (and you quoted) they were given to him to write. Just as it was Paul who received numerous beatings, scourgings and imprisonings not the Holy Spirit.
Point in case, Paul also, at times, disclaims it is not God speaking but he himself. This is required of him by God to maintain integrity tho clearly was given liberty by God to do so. So while all scripture is inspired of God not everything in the scriptures is God speaking, i.e. Jobs accusers.
I've just noticed that my reformed brothers find it difficult to base their beliefs apart from Paul and the true gospel is itself contained in each epistle and is not exclusive to Paul. So if we come to a conclusion that, for the most part, excludes the other (by Pauls own admission) more elder Apostles then we have ventured off the way, which is to say our doctrinal positions must jive with the whole counsel of the word.

Brother Tuc,
How interesting you post a writing from a Calvinist to illustrate your point yet you yourself are, by your own confession, not a Calvinist....
Might you also find evidence of your position being solvent with the writings of non-reformed preachers?
Say Finney or Wesley or Reidhead...

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I see nothing wrong with quoting a Calvinist even though I am not one. It does not change the truth that he wrote.

I have quoted Finney, Andrew Murray, Tozer, David Wilkerson, Nee and others but that does not mean that I embrace everything that they teach.

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I would like to send you a personal message but I can not because your email is not listed in your profile.

Please send me an email to my address in my profile if possible.

Thanks

T
TMK

Quote: "JFW if you think Paul wrote his epistles your going to want to look into that. If Paul wrote his epistles our bibles are worthless.

The Holy Spirit is the single and only author of the Bible."

Indeed, this same Paul who wrote that he disciplined (buffeted) his body in order to bring it into subjection. 1 Cor. 9:27

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proudpapa

"...gospel rest does imply,

1. A complete cessation from all our own selfish works, the end of which is to promote our own interests, temporal or eternal.


2. It implies a cessation from all self-righteous efforts. By self-righteous efforts, I mean,

(1) All attempts to recommend ourselves to God by our own works.


(2) All efforts to avoid punishment, or escape from the wrath of God by any efforts of our own.


(3) All those things which originate in our own convictions, and are performed in the strength of our own resolutions without being influenced thereto by the love of God in our heart.

3. This rest implies a state of mind that feels no necessity for attempting anything in our own strength. There is a state of mind, which perhaps is better known by experience than described by words, in which an individual feels pressed with a necessity of doing something, and every thing in a manner which shall be acceptable to God. And yet, on account of his unbelief, he feels agonized with the thought that he is in no such sense strengthened by the Spirit of God, as shall, as a matter of fact, enable him, and cause him to do that which his convictions of duty demand of him. This is a distracting restless state of mind, and the exact opposite of the rest of faith. Faith so leans upon God, as to bring the mind into a state of sweet repose and confidence that God will help, and that there is no necessity for making any efforts in our own strength.


4. It implies exemption from all the carefulness induced by unbelief on every subject. Faith reposes in God for time and for eternity, for direction, and help, and provisions in temporal as well as spiritual matters. It excludes all carefulness, in the proper sense of that term, on every subject.


5. It implies exemption from the fear of death, and hell. Faith produces that perfect love that casteth out fear--the fear of future want--of the judgments of God--that we shall be overcome by our enemies spiritual or temporal--and of all that fear that hath torment.


6. It implies an exemption from a sense of condemnation. "There is no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."


7. A rest from the reproaches of conscience. In a state of unbelief, conscience often inflicts grievous wounds upon the peace of the soul. But when we take possession of the rest of faith, the conscience is as quiet as a lamb.


8. It implies an exemption from being afflicted or distressed with the occurrences of life. The soul is able to meet with calmness and sweetness that which would otherwise throw the mind into a state of the utmost agitation and distress. By this I do not mean, as I have said above, that individuals will have no trials; but that this state of mind will enable them to pass through their trials with a composed and heavenly temper. Mrs. President Edwards says of herself, that for some years there were two trials which she thought she should be unable to bear. One was the loss of her husband's confidence, and ill treatment from him--the other was the loss of the confidence and respect of the people of the town in which they lived. But when she entered fully into the rest of faith, she declares, that it did not appear to her, as if those things could, in the least, affect her happiness or disturb the repose of her mind. It appeared to her as if she were as far above being discomposed by anything that could occur in the providence of God, as the sun is high above the earth--that to be treated with the utmost disrespect by her husband--to be cast out by the people of the town to perish in the snow, would not break up the deep tranquillity and repose of her mind in God.


9. It implies exemption from the dominion of temptation. I have said, that in this life, we may always as a thing of course expect more or less temptation. But this rest is a state of mind in which temptation will not prevail. It will assail us, and make a greater or less impression upon our minds, i.e. it will in a greater or less degree agitate and ruffle our feelings in proportion to the strength of our faith.


10. Finally, and in a word, it implies exemption from the strength and dominion of sin in all its forms. The case supposed by the Apostle in the seventh chapter of Romans, to illustrate the influence of law over one who is carnal and sold under sin, is a striking exemplification of that state of slavery to lust and passion in which great multitudes, both in and out of the Church, are. And the striking transition from that state of mind into that described in the eighth chapter, exactly illustrates what I mean by an individual passing from a state of slavery and sin into a state of liberty and rest.

From Finneys : The Rest of Faith

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LECTURE 2

Faith

by Charles Finney from The Promise Of The Spirit. (Bethany Fellowship)

John 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

The following is the train of thought I shall pursue:

I. Notice several erroneous answers commonly given to the question proposed in the text, namely, what shall we do that we may work the works of God?

II. Show that Christ gave the only proper answer, under the circumstances in which the question was asked.

III. Show that under other circumstances another answer might with propriety be given.

I. I am to notice several erroneous answers commonly given to the question proposed in the text.

1. Should the question be proposed to a Jew, "What shall I do that I may work the works of God," he would answer, keep the law, both moral and ceremonial, that is, keep the commandments.

2. To the same inquiry an Arminian (Finney here uses the word "Arminian" in the sense usual among nineteenth-century Christians of Calvinist background, as a synonym for "Pelagian," that is, one who affirms salvation by good works. Methodists, understandably, deplored this usage.) would answer, improve common grace and you will obtain converting grace, that is, use the means of grace according to the best light you have, and you will obtain the grace of salvation. In this answer, it is not supposed that the inquirer already has faith and is using the means of grace in faith, but that he is in a state of impenitency and is inquiring after converting grace. The answer, therefore, amounts to this: you must get converting grace by your impenitent works; you must become holy by your hypocrisy; you must work out sanctification by sin.

3. To this question most professed Calvinists would make, in substance, the same reply. They would reject the language while they retained the idea. Their direction would imply either that the inquirer already has faith or that he must perform works to obtain it, that is, to obtain grace by works.

Neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist would formally direct the inquirer to the law as the ground of justification. But nearly the whole church would give directions that would amount to the same thing. Their answer would be a legal and not a gospel answer. For whatever answer is given to this question that does not distinctly recognize faith as the foundation of all virtue in sinners is legal. Unless the inquirer is made to understand that this is the first grand fundamental duty, without the performance of which all virtue, all giving up of sin, all acceptable obedience is impossible, he is misdirected. He is led to believe that it is possible to please God without faith and to obtain grace by works of law. There are but two kinds of works, works of law and works of faith. Now if the inquirer has not the "faith that works by love," to set him upon any course of works to get it is certainly to direct him to get faith by works of law. Whatever is said to him that does not clearly convey the truth that both justification and sanctification are by faith, without works of law, is law and not gospel. Nothing before or without faith can possibly be done by the unbeliever but works of law. His first duty, therefore, is faith; and every attempt to obtain faith by unbelieving works is to lay works at the foundation and make grace a result, It is the direct opposite of gospel truth.

Take facts as they arise in every day’s history to show that what I have stated is the experience of almost all, professors and nonprofessors. Whenever a sinner begins in good earnest to agitate the question, "what shall I do to be saved," he resolves as a first duty to break off from his sins, that is, in unbelief. Of course his reformation is only outward; he determines to do better, to reform in this, that and the other thing, and thus prepare himself to be converted. He does not expect to be saved without grace and faith but he attempts to get grace by works of law.

The same is true of multitudes of anxious Christians who are inquiring what they shall do to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. They overlook the fact that "this is the victory that overcometh the world, even your faith," that it is with "the shield of faith" that they are "to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked." They ask, why am I overcome by sin? Why can I not get above its power? Why am I thus the slave of my appetites and passions and the sport of the devil? They cast about for the cause of all this spiritual wretchedness and death. At one time they think they have discovered it in the neglect of one duty, and at another time in the neglect of another. Sometimes they imagine they have found the cause to lie in yielding to one sin and sometimes in yielding to another. They put forth efforts in this direction and in that direction and patch up their righteousness on one side while they make a rent in the other. Thus they spend years in running around in a circle and making dams of sand across the current of their own corruptions. Instead of at once purifying their hearts by faith, they are engaged in trying to arrest the overflowing of its bitter waters. Why do I sin, they inquire; and casting about for the cause they come to the sage conclusion, it is because I neglect such a duty, that is, because I do sin. But how shall I get rid of sin? Answer: by doing my duty, that is, by ceasing from sin. Now the real inquiry is, why do they neglect their duty? Why do they commit sin at all? Where is the foundation of all this mischief? Will it be replied, the foundation of all this wickedness is in the corruption of our nature, in the wickedness of the heart, in the strength of our evil propensities and habits? But all this only brings us back to the real inquiry again: how are this corrupt nature, this wickedness and these sinful habits to be overcome? I answer, by faith alone. No works of law have the least tendency to overcome our sins but rather confirm the soul in self-righteousness and unbelief.

The great and fundamental sin which is at the foundation of all other sin is unbelief. The first thing is to give up that””to believe the Word of God. There is no breaking off from one sin without this. "Whatever is not of faith is sin." "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Thus we see that the backslider and convicted Christian, when agonizing to overcome sin, will almost always betake themselves to works of law to obtain faith. They will fast and pray and read and struggle and outwardly reform, and thus endeavor to obtain grace. Now all this is in vain and wrong. Do you ask, shall we not fast and pray and read and struggle? Shall we do nothing but sit down in Antinomian security and inaction? I answer, you must do all that God commands you to do; but begin where He tells you to begin and do it in the manner in which He commands you to do it, that is, in the exercise of that faith that works by love. Purify your hearts by faith. Believe in the Son of God. And say not in your heart, "Who shall ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down from above); or "Who shall descend into the deep?" (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead), "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach."

Now these facts show that even under the gospel almost all professors of religion, while they reject the Jewish notion of justification by works of the law, have after all adopted a ruinous substitute for it and suppose that in some way they are to obtain grace by their works.

II. I am to show that Christ gave the only proper answer, under the circumstances in which the question was asked.

In order to understand the propriety of the answer, we must understand the meaning of the question. The context shows that the question was asked by certain unbelieving Jews, who inquired what they could do to work the works of God””in other words, to obtain the favor of God. Christ understood them as inquiring what works would be acceptable without faith. He therefore answers, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." As if He had said, nothing is a work of God which you would recognize as such. Faith is the first great work of God, without which it is impossible to please Him. To a Jew, this answer would imply that he believed Him to be the Messiah foretold in the Scriptures. And to all persons the answer implies not only a general confidence in the character of God but a trust in His atonement and saving grace in opposition to all works of law, for justification.

To show that this is the only proper answer to be given to a person in a state of unbelief, I will state

1. What I DO NOT mean by the proposition; and

2. What I DO mean by it.

1. I do not mean that it is the only proper answer because there is no good and acceptable work but faith.

2. Nor do I mean that faith without works is acceptable to God.

3. Nor do I mean that faith makes void the law and sets aside the obligation and necessity of good works. The Apostle, in James 2:17-26, sets the necessity of works, as the result of faith, in a strong light:

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, 0 vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfliled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

4. Nor do I mean that there are no other directions that may be given to an inquiring sinner or Christian that, if followed, would not in the end amount to the same thing as the direction in the text. In number eighteen of my "Revival Lectures" I said, "You may give the sinner any direction or tell him to do anything that includes a right heart." To repent, to submit, to give the heart to God and all the directions there specified imply faith. Were I to preach that sermon again, I should give a greater prominence to faith and show that the exercise of faith is the first thing to be done, and that upon the exercise of this, repentance, submission, love and every other grace depend.

5. But by the above proposition I do mean that no works are good works or are in any sense acceptable to God, only as they proceed from faith. Let it be forever remembered that "without faith it is impossible to. please God," and "whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

6. It is the proper answer because both justification and sanctification are by faith alone. Rom. 3:30: "Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith"; and 5:1: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Also, 9:30, 31: "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."

But perhaps you will not clearly see the truth of this unless I make a remark or two upon the nature of faith.

The first element of saving faith is a realizing sense of the truth of the Bible. But this is not alone saving faith, for Satan has this realizing sense of truth which makes him tremble.

But a second element in saving faith is the consent of the heart or will to the truth perceived by the intellect. It is a cordial trust or resting of the mind in those truths and a yielding up of the whole being to their influence. Now it is easy to see that without the consent of the will, there can be nothing but an outward obedience to God. A wife without confidence in her husband can do nothing more than perform outwardly her duty to him. It is a contradiction to say that without confidence, she can perform her duty from the heart. The same is true of parental and all other governments. Works of law may be performed without faith; that is, we may serve from fear or hope or some selfish consideration, but without the confidence that works by love, obedience from the heart is naturally impossible. Nay, the very terms, obedience from the heart without love, are a contradiction.

7. By the above I mean that to seek the grace of faith by works of law is an utter abomination. It is as abominable as to attempt to purchase the Holy Ghost with money. It is to set aside the testimony of God with respect to our utter depravity and attempt to palm off our unbelieving, heartless works upon an infinitely holy God. It is an attempt to purchase His favor, instead of accepting grace as a sovereign gift.

8. It is as preposterous as it is wicked. It is seeking to please God by our sins to purchase the grace of faith by making God a liar.

9. To give any other answer to one in unbelief, and to set him to perform any work with the expectation that by it he shall obtain faith, is to confirm him in self-righteousness, to prolong his rebellion, to lead him either to settle down in a self-righteous hope or to produce, in the end, discouragement and blasphemy.

10. Because that repentance, faith, love and every other holy exercise both imply and proceed from faith. Without confidence in the character and requirements of God it is impossible to repent. For what is repentance but heartily to justify God and condemn ourselves. So it is equally impossible to exercise a complacent love to God without faith. Submission to God also implies and presupposes the exercise of confidence in God and in His requirements.

11. This is a proper answer, because all right affection and all good works will necessarily proceed from faith. Christ was not afraid of begetting an Antinomian spirit by laying so much stress upon faith. He knew full well that true faith as naturally and necessarily begets every other inward grace and all outward good works as a cause produces its effects.

12. It is the only proper answer because faith is the only exercise that receives Christ with all His powerfully sanctifying influences into the heart. The Bible everywhere represents the sanctified soul as being under the influence of an indwelling Christ. Now the exercise of faith is that opening of the door by which Christ is received to reign in the heart. Who will pretend that any works are properly good or that any true faith exists in the mind except as the result of the operation or influence of Christ in the mind. Now if this is so, the proper direction plainly is to do that which receives Christ. If this is done, all else will be done. If this is neglected, all else will be neglected, of course.

Ill. I am to show that under other circumstances another answer might with propriety have been given.

or 1. The careless, unawakened sinner who knows nothing of his depravity helplessness, it might be important and proper to direct to the law of God as the rule of his duty not with the expectation of directly promoting holiness thereby but of convicting him of sin. Thus we find Christ requiring the young man who was wrapped up in self-righteousness "to keep the commandments," and taking such a course as to bring out before his mind his supreme love of the world. This produced regret and discouragement in him; and when required to "part with all that he had" and follow Christ, he "went away sorrowful."

2. To the anxious sinner who makes this inquiry, Christ, as I have shown, gave the only appropriate answer. Also to the Christian, inquiring after sanctification, this is the only appropriate answer. In short, to anyone who is convinced of his real character this is the proper, and the only proper, answer.

3. But to one already full of faith and love and of the Holy Spirit, another answer may be given, simply because by the inquiry he means a different thing. When he asks, "What shall I do to work the works of God," his heart breaks forth with the inquiry, "what shall I do to honor and glorify God," not "what shall I do to be saved." Let such an one be directed to the whole preceptive part of the Bible. Do this and avoid that is just the instruction which he needs and upon which he will eagerly seize, to glorify God with all his heart. Such a mind needs instruction, not command and threatening. To him the preceptive part of the Bible is just what his circumstances and state of feeling demand. The commands of the Bible will not beget in him a legal spirit, and thus prove a stumbling block to his soul. He will not set himself self-righteously to perform the duties enjoined; but his heart goes forth to meet his responsibilities and perform the requirements of God.

REMARKS

1. You see from this subject how to understand Rom. 9:20-32, which I have before quoted, "What shall we say, then," &c. The Jews sought by their own doings to please God without faith; but all their righteousness was as filthy rags. While the Gentiles, who had lived in open rebellion, when they heard the gospel believed it at once, instead of betaking themselves to works of law; and thus exercising faith that works by love, they attained to the righteousness which is of God, by faith.

2. You see why the church is not sanctified. They overlook the office and necessity of faith as that which alone can produce acceptable obedience to God. They are engaged in efforts to obtain faith by works, instead of first exercising that faith which will beget within them a clean heart. In this way they seek in vain for sanctification. How common is it to see persons full of bustle and outward efforts and works””fasting and praying, giving and doing and struggling; and after all, they have not the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against which there is no law. They have not, after all, crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts. They do not live in the Spirit and walk in the Spirit. They do not, in their own experience, realize the truth of that saying, "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee." Without that trust they cannot have peace, cannot be sanctified.

Others endeavor to force themselves to exercise the various Christian graces of love, submission, &c., without faith, overlooking the fact that it is faith that works by love, and that repentance and submission imply faith and are the results of faith. They are the surrendering of our wills to the will of God. But this certainly cannot be, without confidence in the character of God. In short, every Christian grace implies the exercise of faith as its foundation.

3. You see why the Bible lays so much stress upon faith.

4. You see what is the difficulty with those who are constantly in a complaining state on the subject of religion. They seem to know they are wrong, but do not understand wherein the foundation of their wrong consists. They sometimes think that a neglect of this duty is the grand difficulty, and sometimes something else is that upon which their minds fasten as the prime difficulty in the case. They set themselves to break off from one sin and another, and practice this self-denial and that duty, and all without that faith that fills the heart with love. Thus they go round and round in a circle and do not see that unbelief is their great, their damning sin, without the removal of which no other sin can be repented of or forgiven. All their efforts are entirely legal, hypocritical and vain till they exercise faith.

5. You see the mistake of Antinomian perfectionists in setting aside all preceptive religion and understanding obedience to the commands of God am legality. They do not make the discrimination here made. If persons without faith, in an unsanctified state, set themselves to obey the commandments of God, their efforts must necessarily be legal, self-righteous and ruinous. To them the precepts of the gospel, as well as the commandments of the law, are a horrible pit of miry clay. You cast a man into a horrible pit of miry clay, and the more he struggles the deeper he sinks. Now to a man without faith, the precepts of the law and gospel are fitly compared to miry clay. Every effort at obedience without faith is sin and, as it confirms self-righteousness, is sinking him farther and farther from God and rational hope. And the more vehemently he struggles, the more desperate and alarming his case becomes. The clay surrounds him and cleaves to him, suffocates and kills him. Just so the commands of God to an unbelieving heart are a snare and a pit. They are miry and suffocating clay. Without faith there is ruin and damnation in them.

6. You see how to the Jews and to all unbelievers, the commandments of God are a stumbling block. All outward conformity to them is useless, yea, ruinous. Love without faith is impossible. And consequently the merciful direction and instructions contained in the preceptive parts of the gospel are made the food of self-righteousness and the snare of death. But to those whose souls are full of faith and love, the commandments of God are Just the instruction which they need when, in their ignorance, they earnestly inquire what they shall do to glorify God. Do this and avoid that, and the like, are just the things upon which hearts of love will seize, as the needed directions of their heavenly Father.

7. But someone may inquire, do not men learn to exercise faith by what you call legal efforts and in obedience to legal directions? No. They only learn by experience that all such directions are vain and that they are totally depraved and dependent, which they ought to have believed before. They set themselves to pray and read and struggle, expecting at every meeting they attend, every prayer they make, to obtain grace and faith. But they never do until they are completely discouraged and despair of obtaining help in this way. And the history of every self-righteous sinner’s conversion and every anxious Christian’s sanctification would develop this truth: that deliverance cometh not until their self-righteous efforts were proved by their own experience to be utterly vain, and abandoned as useless, and the whole subject thrown upon the sovereign mercy of God. This submitting a subject to the sovereign mercy of God is that very act of faith which they should have put forth long before, but which they would not exercise until every other means had been tried in vain.

8. But perhaps you will say, if by this self-righteous struggle they learn their depravity and dependence and in this manner come to prove by their own experience the truth of God, why not encourage them to make these efforts as, at least, an indirect way of obtaining faith? Answer: blasphemy and drunkenness and any of the most shocking sins may be and often have been the means of working conviction which has resulted in conversion. Why not encourage these things, as such is sometimes their indirect effect? The truth is, when a sinner’s attention is awakened and he is convicted and puts forth the inquiry "what shall I do"; and when a Christian, struggling with his remaining corruption, puts forth the same inquiry, why should they be thrown into the horrible pit of which I have spoken? Why not tell them at once, in the language of the text, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"?

9. Let me say to you who would make the inquiry in the text, don’t wait to fast, read, pray or anything else; don’t expect to break off from any sin in your unbelief. You may break off from the outward commission””you may substitute praying for swearing, reading your Bible for reading novels, outward industry and honesty for theft and idleness, sobriety for drunkenness, and anything you please””and it is, after all, only exchanging one form of sin for another. It is only varying the mode of your warfare. But remember that in unbelief whatever your conduct is, you are in highhanded rebellion against God. Faith would instantly sanctify your heart, sanctify all your doings, and render them, in Christ Jesus, acceptable to God. Unbelief is your great, your crying, your damning sin, against which the heaviest thunderbolts of Jehovah are hurled.

10. Don’t wait for any particular view of Christ before you believe. When persons in the state of mind of which I have been speaking hear those who live in faith describe their views of Christ, they say, "Oh, if I had such views I could believe; I must have these before I can believe." Now you should understand that these views are the result and effect of faith. These views of which you speak are that which faith discovers in those passages of scripture which describe Christ. Faith apprehends the meaning of those passages and sees in them these very things which you expect to see before you exercise faith, and which you imagine would produce it. Take hold, then, on the simple promise of God. Take God at His word. Believe that He means just what He says. And this will at once bring you into the state of mind after which you inquire.

11. Let what has been said be an answer to that sister in New York who Inquired, by letter, what she should do to obtain the blessing of sanctification. My dear child, you inquire whether you shall obtain by reading the Bible, or by prayer, fasting or by all these together. Now let this sermon answer you and know that by neither nor by all these, in the absence of faith, are you to grow any better or find any relief. You speak of being in darkness and of being discouraged. No wonder you are so, since you have plainly been seeking sanctification by works of law. You have "stumbled at this stumbling stone." You are in the horrible pit and miry clay of which I have just spoken. Immediately exercise faith upon the Son of God. It is the first, the only thing you can do to rest your feet upon the rock; and it will Immediately put a new song into your mouth.

S
sermonindex

TMK Wrote "Indeed, this same Paul who wrote that he disciplined (buffeted) his body in order to bring it into subjection. 1 Cor. 9:27"

This is the area of taking up his cross daily. To use this verse in context of this discussion is incorrect. It cannot be taken out of context of outward ministry it is not a sanctification verse.

The cross was Jesus ministry and disciples take up their cross of ministry daily and the reproach it brings.


marcmc

S
sermonindex

"10. Finally, and in a word, it implies exemption from the strength and dominion of sin in all its forms. The case supposed by the Apostle in the seventh chapter of Romans, to illustrate the influence of law over one who is carnal and sold under sin, is a striking exemplification of that state of slavery to lust and passion in which great multitudes, both in and out of the Church, are. And the striking transition from that state of mind into that described in the eighth chapter, exactly illustrates what I mean by an individual passing from a state of slavery and sin into a state of liberty and rest. "

Finney


It is literally like taking off a set of clothing that you never put back on.

marcmc

J
JFW

Brother Tuc,
I didn't say there was a problem with quoting Spurgeon (I love him too) but simply stated I found it interesting in light of our discussion. As I have expressed to you privately and publicly, I very much enjoy your expressions of faith in Christ and Him alone.

So since you made point of it, do you agree with everything Finney said in the writings of his you posted?

S
sermonindex

Faith is the least self-regarding of the virtues. It is by its very nature scarcely conscious of its own existence. Like the eye which sees everything in front of it and never sees itself, faith is occupied with the Object upon which it rests and pays no attention to itself at all. While we are looking at God we do not see ourselves”” blessed riddance. The man who has struggled to purify himself and has had nothing but repeated failures will experience real relief when he stops tinkering with his soul and looks away to the perfect One. While he looks at Christ, the very things he has so long been trying to do will be getting done within him. It will be God working in him to will and to do. . . .

S
sermonindex

"The same is true of multitudes of anxious Christians who are inquiring what they shall do to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. They overlook the fact that "this is the victory that overcometh the world, even your faith," that it is with "the shield of faith" that they are "to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked." They ask, why am I overcome by sin? Why can I not get above its power? Why am I thus the slave of my appetites and passions and the sport of the devil? They cast about for the cause of all this spiritual wretchedness and death. At one time they think they have discovered it in the neglect of one duty, and at another time in the neglect of another. Sometimes they imagine they have found the cause to lie in yielding to one sin and sometimes in yielding to another. They put forth efforts in this direction and in that direction and patch up their righteousness on one side while they make a rent in the other. Thus they spend years in running around in a circle and making dams of sand across the current of their own corruptions. Instead of at once purifying their hearts by faith, they are engaged in trying to arrest the overflowing of its bitter waters. Why do I sin, they inquire; and casting about for the cause they come to the sage conclusion, it is because I neglect such a duty, that is, because I do sin. But how shall I get rid of sin? Answer: by doing my duty, that is, by ceasing from sin. Now the real inquiry is, why do they neglect their duty? Why do they commit sin at all? Where is the foundation of all this mischief? Will it be replied, the foundation of all this wickedness is in the corruption of our nature, in the wickedness of the heart, in the strength of our evil propensities and habits? But all this only brings us back to the real inquiry again: how are this corrupt nature, this wickedness and these sinful habits to be overcome? I answer, by faith alone. No works of law have the least tendency to overcome our sins but rather confirm the soul in self-righteousness and unbelief."


I believe this? don't you?

"how are this corrupt nature, this wickedness and these sinful habits to be overcome? I answer, by faith alone. No works of law have the least tendency to overcome our sins but rather confirm the soul in self-righteousness and unbelief."


J
JFW

Brother Tuc,
Yes Amen!

We will always act in faith regarding that which we believe,... so it (what we truly believe) becomes apparent by our actions hence the "Good Samaritan"-

Having said this you are aware that how we came to have this "corrupt nature" is THE point of contention between say Finney and Spurgeon?
While how to enter the rest we are promised, which is by faith, is quite clear in the scriptures from beginning to end.

While one professes we are born with it, the other professes it is aquired after the fact thru choosing,... It seems to me that this starting point does in fact dictate how the appropriation of faith is lived out in the context of what is believed to be the potential end result this side of heaven.

T
twayneb

marcmc: Sorry brother. I did not mean to imply that I thought the purpose of the law was to obtain righteousness.

to all

If the question is ultimately, "how do I walk in victory?", then the answer is one of two choices. Do I do so by my own efforts, or do I do so by a power greater than myself. Neither is passive in nature. Both require labor. One has in it only frustration and failure. The other has in it victory.

All too often we do not distinguish between the two.

One man says, "I struggle with a sin, so I must find a way to prevent myself from committing that sin. I want to be righteous and I want to please God, and this sin is what is standing in the way of me accomplishing that goal. So I will do this thing and that thing to make sure I don't sin that way again." That man then proceeds to find all sorts of ways to hedge himself in so that he cannot commit that sin again. Perhaps he makes sure he is never alone. Perhaps he puts himself in a situation where committing that sin will bring about a consequence that he dislikes (perhaps public shame) more than he likes the sin. His heart is to please God. He wants righteousness. But he is going about it in the flesh and is always finding himself defeated. He is fighting a spiritual battle with fleshly weapons, and he is losing. His focus is always on not doing that thing that he perceives to be coming between God and himself.

Another man says, "I struggle with a certain sin. But I am dead to sin. I have been crucified with Christ, and now I live by His power. My sin must be a sign that I am not connected to the vine. I see that I am walking in the flesh, so I am going to labor to seek God with my whole heart. I am going to draw near to Him." This man receives God's forgiveness and then labors to renew or strengthen his intimacy with God, knowing that the power and strength to victory is not a thing that He can have apart from the power of the Holy Spirit working in him.

The first man sees his own efforts as what pleases God and thinks that he must obtain something by his own power in order to be right with God. The second realizes that he could never approach righteousness by his own power and receives from God what only God can give: righteousness, power, strength, and victory.

It can be so subtle sometimes, and yet it is night and day. To an outside observer, it can appear very similar, and yet the motivation is worlds apart.

I believe it was Watchman Nee that understood this so well. He knew what it meant to truly reckon yourself dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God. I live in Ozarks. When a man says, "Well I reckon!", it is a statement of acknowledgement of an absolute fact. "Sure is hot today." "Well I reckon!"

We must come to the revelation that we are truly dead to sin and made righteous through the sacrifice of Christ. It must be reality to us. And along with this revelation must come the realization that our labor is to walk in the Spirit so that we have the power to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

S
sermonindex

Twayneb,

How did they do it before the cross?

marcmc

T
twayneb

If there had been a man who could have kept the law, then he could have obtained righteousness by the law. But no such man, outside of Christ, existed. Therefore the law revealed sin, and made it exceedingly sinful. It brought us to the realization that we needed a savior.

Pre-law, we find several mentions of men who were righteous. In Abraham's case, we know that his righteousness came by faith... the same way that our own righteousness is obtained. We put faith in what Jesus did. He became sin for me that I might become the very righteousness of God in Him.

I think you might have thought that I was saying that the purpose of the law was to obtain righteousness. I think we are on the same page. It is easy to misinterpret one another when we do not sit across the table face to face.

T
twayneb

[qoute]"10. Finally, and in a word, it implies exemption from the strength and dominion of sin in all its forms. The case supposed by the Apostle in the seventh chapter of Romans, to illustrate the influence of law over one who is carnal and sold under sin, is a striking exemplification of that state of slavery to lust and passion in which great multitudes, both in and out of the Church, are. And the striking transition from that state of mind into that described in the eighth chapter, exactly illustrates what I mean by an individual passing from a state of slavery and sin into a state of liberty and rest. "

Finney


It is literally like taking off a set of clothing that you never put back on.

Exactly! "Paul's struggle" is not that of a believer who wrestles continually with sin and always loses. Paul struggled when he was under the law. But when righteousness came...when he died and found his new life in Christ...the struggle was over. He now walked in victory.

J
JFW

Brother Travis wrote;
"Exactly! "Paul's struggle" is not that of a believer who wrestles continually with sin and always loses. Paul struggled when he was under the law. But when righteousness came...when he died and found his new life in Christ...the struggle was over. He now walked in victory."

Yes! This is also my understanding of the Romans 7 man, he was under the law but in verse 1 of Chapter 8 comes the victory!

T
twayneb

Amen Fletcher. I think it is a HUGE point of Bible doctrine with huge implications in the life of a believer. I know many who disagree, and that is OK, but I think it has a great effect on their walk.

T
TMK

Quote: ""how are this corrupt nature, this wickedness and these sinful habits to be overcome? I answer, by faith alone. No works of law have the least tendency to overcome our sins but rather confirm the soul in self-righteousness and unbelief."

I understand what Finney is saying. The difficulty is what does it LOOK LIKE from a PRACTICAL STANDPOINT.

S
sermonindex

Romans is systematic, it is a straight line through the mystery of God. The power for the overcoming life is in Romans 5.
Romans 6 answer the question "what about sin can we continue in it now that we are under grace" this is the first question that comes to the mind of someone who hears the true Gospel. The forgiveness is so complete and the grace so total that a person will automatically say "then I can do whatever I want"

Romans 7 deals with the next question. So what about the Law.

Romans 8 returns to the victory that Romans 5 ensures.

marcmc

S
sermonindex

TMK wrote "I understand what Finney is saying. The difficulty is what does it LOOK LIKE from a PRACTICAL STANDPOINT."

While the victory is in the heart, the manifestation of it for the believer is the mind. You simply do not think harmful or covetous thoughts. Unclean thoughts simply do not occur, they cannot be found in the mind when you are walking in the light. The body takes its cues from the mind so as to the world "lust of the eyes, lusts of the flesh and pride of life" it is simply silent or as Paul said "dead to sin".

This sequence in James does not occur.

James 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

marcmc


J
JFW

Brother Todd,
Great question!
I've been in the trenches as it were on this for some time now doing an excavation of histoircal biblical examples and while my attempt to come to a definitive answer is yet some time in the (hopefully near) future, I can say at this point it's actually refreshingly different than what I had expected to find. That being said there does seem to be a definitive difference post Pentecost between the "practical living" of these saints verses the Old Testament saints, and while that's not really surprising, I am at this point seriously considering that we (I) have imagined even these saints to be greater in consistency than they actually were. I have discovered my own tendency to "idolize" the Apostles tho Peter clearly says (at least some) we have obtained like faith (2 Peter 1:1) which is to say we at least should be on the same footing. Taking this in consideration of Abraham or David for example leads me to believe that it probably looks messier than I might have imagined. For me at least, the exploits of these saints has for many years overshadowed the frailty of their humanity as if they didn't "mess up" and make mistakes at times.
Sorry I couldn't answer better but I'm just not there yet on this one.

M
makrothumia

Spurgeon spoke from the heart about many aspects of our walk with Christ. Here is a message of exhortation aimed squarely at a believer's responsibility.

Spurgeon,

A man cannot be idle and yet have Christ’s sweet company. Christ is a quick walker, and when his people would talk with him they must travel quickly too, or else they will soon lose his company. Christ, my Master, goes about doing good, and if you would walk with him you must go about upon the same mission. The Almighty lover of the souls of men is not wont to keep company with idle persons. I find in Scripture that most of the great appearances that were made to eminent saints were made when they were busy. Moses kept his father’s flock when he saw the burning bush; Joshua is going round about the city of Jericho when he meets the angel of the Lord; Jacob is in prayer and the angel of God appears to him; Gideon is threshing, and Elisha is ploughing, when the Lord calls them; Matthew is in the receipt of custom when he is bidden to follow Jesus; and James and John are fishing. The manna which the children of Israel kept till morning bred worms and stank: idle grace would soon become active corruption.

Moreover, sloth hardens the conscience: laziness is one of the irons with which the heart is seared. Abimelech hired vain and light persons to serve his turn, and the prince of darkness does the same. Oh! friends, it is a sad thing to rust the edge off from one’s mind, and to lose keenness of moral perception; but sloth will surely do this for us. David felt the emasculating power of sloth, he was losing the force of his conscience, and was ready for anything. The worst is near at hand. He walks upon the housetop and sees the object which excites his lust; he sends for the woman, the deed is done; it leads to another crime, he tempts Uriah; it leads to murder, Uriah is put to death; and he takes Uriah’s wife. Ah, David! Ah, David! how are the mighty fallen! how is the prince of Israel fallen and become like the lewd fellows who riot in the evening! From this day forth his sunshine turns to cloud, his peace gives place to suffering, and he goes to his grave an afflicted and troubled man, who, though he could say, "God hath made with me an everlasting covenant,” yet had to precede it with that very significant sentence, "Although my house be not so with God.”

Dear friends, is there any one here among the Lord’s people who would crucify the Lord afresh and put him to an open shame? Is there any one among you that would wish to sell your Master, with Judas, or turn aside from Christ, with Demas? It is easy of accomplishment. Oh, you say, you could not do it. Now, perhaps you could not. Get slothful; do not fight the Lord’s battles, and it will become not only easy for you to sin, but you will surely become its victim. Oh! how Satan delights to make God’s people fall into sin; for then he doth, as it were, thrust another nail into the bloody hand of Christ; then he doth stain the fair white linen of Christ’s own garment; then he vaunteth himself that he hath gotten a victory over the Lord Jesus, and hath led one of the Master’s favourites captive at his will! Oh! if we would not thus make hell ring with Satanic laughter, and make the men of God weep because the cedars of Lebanon are cut down, let us watch unto prayer, and be diligent in our Master’s business, "fervent in spirit, serving the Lord.”

My dear friends, we do not exhort you to serve Christ, to be saved by it. David was saved. I only speak to you who are saved, and I beg and beseech of you to take notice of David’s fall, and of the sloth that was at the beginning of it, as a warning to yourselves. Some temptations come to the industrious, but all temptations attack the idle. Notice the invention used by country people to catch wasps. They will put a little sweet liquor into a long and narrow-necked phial. The do-nothing wasp comes by, smells the sweet liquor, plunges in, and is drowned. But the bee comes by, and if she does stop for a moment to smell, yet she enters not, because she has honey of her own to make; she is too busy in the work of the commonwealth to indulge herself with the tempting sweets. Master Greenham, a Puritan divine, was once waited upon by a woman who was greatly tempted. Upon making enquiries into her way of life, he found she had little to do, and Greenham said, "That is the secret of your being so much tempted. Sister, if you are very busy, Satan may tempt you, but he will not easily prevail, and he will soon give up the attempt.” Idle Christians are not tempted of the devil so much as they do tempt the devil to tempt them. Idleness sets the door of the heart ajar, and asks Satan to come in; but if we are occupied from morning till night, if Satan shall get in, he must break through the door. Under sovereign grace, and next to faith, there is no better shield against temptation than being "Not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord.”

This message is only one of many that demonstrates that Spurgeon aimed at different goals on different occasions. They are not contradicting messages, rather they are compliments comprising the whole council of God as he understood it.

J
JFW

This dear brother is exactly why I love Spurgeon, what a wonderful and sincere exhortation and solemn admonition, we would all do well to take heed to these words and apply them steadfastly.

Thanks for posting!

S
sermonindex

Faith would instantly sanctify your heart.
Yes and YOU CAN DO THAT NOW!!!

9. Let me say to you who would make the inquiry in the text, don’t wait to fast, read, pray or anything else; don’t expect to break off from any sin in your unbelief. You may break off from the outward commission””you may substitute praying for swearing, reading your Bible for reading novels, outward industry and honesty for theft and idleness, sobriety for drunkenness, and anything you please””and it is, after all, only exchanging one form of sin for another. It is only varying the mode of your warfare. But remember that in unbelief whatever your conduct is, you are in highhanded rebellion against God. Faith would instantly sanctify your heart, sanctify all your doings, and render them, in Christ Jesus, acceptable to God. Unbelief is your great, your crying, your damning sin, against which the heaviest thunderbolts of Jehovah are hurled.

Finney

S
sermonindex

Many people think the grace of God is like Him dropping a big, strong rope from heaven and giving you the privilege of trying to climb it. God does a little, then leaves the rest up to you. So you read The Art of Rope Climbing and Seven Steps to Successful Rope Climbing. You master those books and you get on the rope. But you climb about a tenth of the way up and you say, "This isn't going to work. I'm already exhausted."

So you start down.

I know, because I'm passing you on that same rope. I start up the rope and see you coming down. "What was your problem?" I ask. "Didn't you read that book on fifteen ways to climb the rope?"

Then I come down, exhausted, and here you are coming up again. "I'm going to make it this time!" you proclaim. Up and down, up and down, up and down.

That's what the Christian life is for most of us. It's all dealing with the false self, with below-the-line stuff, with trying to remold and remake the soul. The sad thing is that if we are successful in remaking it, the remade one isn't any better than the old one from God's point of view. It just knows how to cope better.

God's grace isn't a rope He dangles from heaven asking us to climb. We may understand that when it comes to our eternal salvation, but when it comes to living the Christian life, we turn around and ask, "Where is that rope?"

The Christian life is totally grace. God initiated it, God fulfills it, and God will complete it. He is the One who lives it in us.

Yet we may not know that it's totally grace. If we believe God has met 50 percent of His requirements by grace, then we think we have to fill up the other 50 percent by works. After all, 100 percent of His requirements have to be met, don't they? So if God has met only part of the requirement, it's up to us to meet the rest. Almost all of us have subtly been lured into that trap: "God saved me, He forgave my sins, but the rest is up to me."

A lady was telling me that John Wesley once said, "Earnestly pursue perfection."

I replied, "Good luck with that."

I earnestly pursued. Didn't you? I knew the forgiveness of my sins was by grace. But God had this demand, "be ye perfect, be ye holy." And though forgiveness was by grace, I was locked into doing the other part by works. I had to work to be holy. Even if 80 percent of it was by grace, I was going to have to do 20 percent by works.

The truth is this: it's all by grace. Not only is justification by grace, but sanctification is by grace. God does it all.

Hundreds of years before Christ came, God foretold that He would do it all. Through Ezekiel, He explained the New Covenant to the Jews:

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Who is the only one who can perform this heart transplant? God. Notice all of the "I wills" in this passage.

"I will give you a new heart."
"I will put a new spirit within you."
"I will remove the heart of stone."
"I will give you a heart of flesh."
"I will put My Spirit within you."
"I will cause you to walk in My statutes."

People often worry, "Can I keep the law? Can I live up to what God wants me to be?"

Of course, as Paul wrote, we have died to the law (Romans 7:4-6). We no longer have any relationship to it, nor do we look to it in an effort to fulfill it. But the law does reveal the character of God, and God's intent is to manifest His life through us. As He does that, He will Himself fulfill the law through us. Or, in other words, He will reflect His own character. So He says to us, "I will cause you to walk in them. After all, I'm the Lawgiver and the Law keeper, so I can cause you to walk in them."

Nothing of God has its point of origin with you. But everything of God will be manifested as you in your world. On the outside, it's going to look like you. But nothing is going to have its point of origin with you. The point of origin is God's "I will" in you.

Jeremiah was the first to record the New Covenant "I wills":

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more" (31:31,33-34).

Aren't the "I wills" in Ezekiel and Jeremiah tremendous? God says, "I will do it." We are the benefactors of those "I wills." As those "I wills" are worked into us and become the reality of our lives, then we do walk in them. That's always been the desire of our hearts, to walk in the ways of the Lord.

As long as these things are just concepts to us, though, truths that seem separate from us, we try to make them happen ourselves. We are programmed to try to do it, but we don't know the inner life, so we are programmed for failure. We do have a new heart, and we want so desperately to do what God wants us to do, but we don't have the power to bring to pass what only God can do.

There isn't any way that we can make life succeed on any other basis than faith in God's "I wills." He will do it. That's the way it works. But it takes time for God to work His "I wills" into us and supplant our own "I wills."

Part of what God said He would do in Ezekiel is completed. He has given us a new heart. He has put a new spirit within us. He has removed our old heart and given us a new one, in which He has also placed His Spirit. That work, already finished, can't be touched. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17, NKJV). God can't do any more for us in the spirit realm than join His Spirit life to our human receiver spirit, and there be united with us in oneness.

The other part of God's work is ongoing. "I will cause you to walk in My statutes." That work of His proceeds in our soul and body. God is lining up our outer being with Himself. But until we see this unseen and eternal truth, we will try to line it up for Him. We will get hold of a new passage of Scripture, a new book, or a new concept, and say, "That's what I want to look like." And we will try to make it happen. I bought just about every how-to book ever written. I never did bother to ask if the authors could actually do it, but I quickly discovered I couldn't. God is the one who does it.

What role does the human being play in this divine encounter? Only one: to be willing. The only thing you can do is be willing and cooperate with the Person in you that can cause it to happen. God doesn't cause anything to happen internally that we don't want to happen. God never stomps on our will. He loves it, caresses it, enfolds it, and draws it to Himself, but He never overrides it.

It's a terrible blow to the ego to see that the only part you have to play in God's plan is willingness. A long time ago our foreparents bought a lie. In the Garden, they bought the lie of independent self and independent self-sufficiency. They believed that a real person was self-sufficient.

There are popular movements today built entirely on that premise. They're building up the self. You know what you get? More self. If you're successful, you get more vain. If you're not, you get self-condemnation. It's a dead end.

God does it all. Our part is to be willing. If we're willing and cooperate, "I will cause you to walk in My statutes and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." That's when it comes back to you - not as the point of origin but as the willing outward expresser of His life.

In Galatians 2:20, after saying, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," Paul then talks of "the life which I now live in the flesh [the physical body]."

We do live, but Christ lives through us. "I will cause you to walk in them, but you will do it. I will cause it, but you will do it." That's the exciting part of this life, seeing God work out through us what He has worked into us. We see Him work out Whom He has worked in. And we are inwardly involved with all that He is doing.

God used the most disappointing chapter in my Christian life to begin to show me this. That episode became the necessary prerequisite for my greatest blessing. The Holy Spirit told me, "Look, you're trying to live a life you were never meant to live. But I can live the life in you, as you, that you're now trying to live on your own."

That's good news, isn't it? There is Someone who can live the life. He can live the life perfectly acceptable to the Father. Our primary role is to cooperate and be willing for Him to do it. He is willing, you are willing - that's the secret. He will live the life.

The Son has taken up His residence in us. His purpose is the same as it was during His earthly walk: to do the will of the Father. What the Holy Spirit does in us (not out through us in activity but in us as Teacher) is continually line us up with the true Person in us. That's why ongoing revelation is needed. The more understanding of His nature that He gives us, the more we fall in line with it, because that's the true desire of our new heart.

Previously, we were trying to produce this ourselves. Now, we're watching Him do it. We're being changed into His image from glory to glory by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). More and more, without any kind of striving or effort, our whole will, indwelt by His Spirit's will, is just flowing with Him. We have always wanted to do His will. The Holy Spirit just brings that true desire to the surface, out from our spirit. Ultimately, we get to a place within where we don't know if something is our voice or His, because they become so one. So, like Jesus, we say, "My will is to do His will." Our will has been captured by God.

From the book THE REST OF THE GOSPEL
by Dan Stone

J
JFW

Brother Tuc,
Yes Faith does instantly sanctify our hearts, and while on God's end He is faithFULL we are not always and so (as I understand the scriptures to teach) sanctification is both instant and precessional. God does His work instantly tho we must walk it out processionaly.
While the scriptures clearly teach faith is a gift from God we also are told to "stir up the gift". It's is in this way that I sometimes find your presentations a lil unbalanced, I'm not suggestion you are misguided or decevied or anything of the sort, rather I'm saying (and I could be misreading you) is that you over emphasize one aspect to such an extent so as to make the other seemingly unnecessary, which is why I say it seems a bit passive to me.

As Spurgeon made solid effort to correct this very thing in the above writing, your writings, while wonderful, would be more solvent if our responsibilities were included in them and not as something God does in us, for He has (past tense) done what He said He would and expects fully that we ourselves would respond in faith. This is what I understand both Spurgeon, Finney, Whitfield, Tozer, Wesley, Paul, Peter, James and all of Gods faithful servants to teach.

Having said this I do believe that you have laid hold of a glorious truth and I am in no way attempting to wrestle it from your grasp, God forbid! rather hoping you see that while this truth is great and glorious it is not the whole of the matter.
But brother I can say that your faith in God is indeed quite an encouragement to me:)

As I understand it, salvation, sanctification, justification, reformation, regeneration, etc... is ALL by faith on our end and while it's true God gives it it is equally true we must use it to be obedient. His Spirit leads us to exercise it. His grace supplies us to its end. His love compels us to walk in it. But it is we who must respond in kind to it.

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The real issue is the point of Orgin of our trusted soucre. Is it our self or is it God's "I will" in us?

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JFW wrote" rather hoping you see that while this truth is great and glorious it is not the whole of the matter"

Sorry brother but you see it this way because you do not have it. The part you still think we play has not yet been unravelled from the simplicity of the Gospel. You have not had the revelation that causes you to say out loud " Could it really be that easy?"

The Gift Paul reminded Timothy to stir up was his ministry gift not the gift of faith.

I should add that I don't agree with the Spurgeon post it just shows that even he had a Gospel whip for his sheep. And also the point 9 qoute from Finney falls in lime with his sinless perfection position that I also do not agree with. His book "power from on high" lays out this position well and is popular with Penticostals and years ago I did have a short lived breakthrough from that book, it's not sustainable and will inevitably lead to legalism because it's not the gospel. It's not faith it's a revelation of the truth.

Guys we must never forget that the Gospel can be made clear, plain and successful with children. My boys have heard it, understood it and walked in it from a very young age.

John 8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

2 Peter 1:19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Ephesians 1:15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
marcmc

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look at what I wrote at the at the start of this thread.

I regarded myself as my point of origin and source of life. I found that I could not produce the life of God out of me. I couldn't bring God's life out of me. How was I going to do that? As long as I saw myself as the source of life, though, I had to keep trying. Until one day after countless failures and defeats, Jesus impressed to my spirit: "I am your life. I am the only life acceptable to the Father. I not only want to forgive you; I want to live the life in you. I want to be your life."

So my question was, how do I change the point origin and source of my own life? I knew that my own efforts that it was impossible for me to surrender or to change my source just by the power of my will. Self can NEVER surrender it self.

This is when my eyes were opened to see that this was something that God had already done for me and in. I saw it was ONLY by HIS doing that I was in Christ. 1 Cor. 1:30 New American Standard Bible (©1995) "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."

God in Christ did what the law and all my own efforts could NEVER accomplish.

J
JFW


The real issue is the point of Orgin of our trusted soucre. Is it our self or is it God's "I will" in us?

Yes brother we ALL agree God is the author and finisher of our faith but it is we who must be the doer.

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JFW sorry brother but you pull versus together that do not go together.

"Faith without works is dead" is an entirely different subject, point, issue and context. It has zero to do with this stage in the works of God.

Brother the word is not a big stew that we just pull up ladles full and lay out together. While it is not written sequentially it is 100% systematic.

marcmc

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JFW

Brother Marc wrote;

"The Gift Paul reminded Timothy to stir up was his ministry gift not the gift of faith."

My response;

When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Sounds like Paul is referencing the gift of faith from the previous verse...


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Phi 2:12-13, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Our outward walk is the just result of CHRIST'S LIFE with in us.

He is the one doing both the willing and the doing.

Gal 2:20-21, "I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

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JFW

Brother Marc wrote,

"JFW sorry brother but you pull versus together that do not go together.

"Faith without works is dead" is an entirely different subject, point, issue and context. It has zero to do with this sat age in the works of God.

Brother the word is not a big stew that we just pull up ladles full and lay out together. While it is not written sequentially it is 100% systematic."

Yes I agree it is systematic (at least in one sense) however the Faith of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is no different than mine;)

See 2 Peter 1:1

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here is what Dan wrote

Aren't the "I wills" in Ezekiel and Jeremiah tremendous? God says, "I will do it." We are the benefactors of those "I wills." As those "I wills" are worked into us and become the reality of our lives, then we do walk in them. That's always been the desire of our hearts, to walk in the ways of the Lord.

As long as these things are just concepts to us, though, truths that seem separate from us, we try to make them happen ourselves. We are programmed to try to do it, but we don't know the inner life, so we are programmed for failure. We do have a new heart, and we want so desperately to do what God wants us to do, but we don't have the power to bring to pass what only God can do.

There isn't any way that we can make life succeed on any other basis than faith in God's "I wills." He will do it. That's the way it works. But it takes time for God to work His "I wills" into us and supplant our own "I wills."

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By the laying on of hands Timothy received faith?

No it was a ministry gift.

But that aside the context of this thread requires zero so called stirring up. Rather God simply shows you the truth of who He is, who you are and the real source of sin being totally destroyed by the works of His son and your free.

I have seen my boys get this at a very young age. It's a revelation of the Gospel. What your insisting with your partnership on varying degrees with God is not the Gospel. If you think that you can contribute a single thing to your freedom you have not received a revelation of the works of Jesus. You might be able to teach it, quote it and give a thousand proof texts but at the end of the day it's legalism, behavior modification or sanctity by default (old age) but its not the Gospel.

marcmc

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JFW

Brother Tuc,

Again I have not the heart to argue this or any other point with you dear brother. I as well as others have attempted to offer suggestions in your presentations regarding the passivity that is perceived/implied in your writings,... that is all, nothing more-nothing less.
If you choose to reject it, so be it- as no one can do for us what we must do for ourselves (even with God being the point of origin).

I would like to hear your thoughts on what brother Alan posted from Spurgeon, as it seems that he saw it differently than you.

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The post The point of origin is God's "I will" in you - was and is my response to brother Alan.

J
JFW

Brother Marc wrote;
"By the laying on of hands Timothy received faith?

No it was a ministry gift.
My response;
Well actually Paul was referring to the gift of the Spirit who Himself brings the gift of faith, love, etc...

But that aside the context of this thread requires zero so called stirring up. Rather God simply shows you the truth of who He is, who you are and the real source of sin being totally destroyed by the works of His son and your free.
My response;
Yes but free to do what? Just be free or free from the bondage of sin so we may work the works of righteousness....


I have seen my boys get this at a very young age. It's a revelation of the Gospel. What your insisting with your partnership on varying degrees with God is not the Gospel. If you think that you can contribute a single thing to your freedom you have not received a revelation of the works of Jesus. You might be able to teach it, quote it and give a thousand proof texts but at the end of the day it's legalism, behavior modification or sanctity by default (old age) but its not the Gospel.

My response;
Dear brother, I in no way am suggesting that we can contribute "to" our freedom but I AM saying we should do something with it,... Serve God who purchased it with the blood of His Son in faithfull obedience:)

off to work now, hope to be able to take this up later today- until then peace be unto you~

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WHY SAINTS PERSEVERE

HE HOPE which filled the heart of Paul concerning the Corinthian brethren we have already seen to be full of comfort to those who trembled as to their future. But why was it that he believed that the brethren would be confirmed unto the end?

I want you to notice that he gives his reasons. Here they are:

God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:9).

The apostle does not say, "You are faithful." Alas! the faithfulness of man is a very unreliable affair it is mere vanity. He does not say, "You have faithful ministers to lead and guide you, and therefore I trust you will be safe." Oh, no! if we are kept by men we shall be but ill kept. He puts it, "God is faithful." If we are found faithful, it will be because God is faithful. On the faithfulness of our covenant God the whole burden of our salvation must rest. On this glorious attribute of God the matter hinges. We are variable as the wind, frail as a spider's web, weak as water. No dependence can be placed upon our natural qualities, or our spiritual attainments but God abideth faithful. He is faithful in His love He knows no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is faithful to His purpose He doth not begin a work and then leave it undone. He is faithful to His relationships as a Father He will not renounce His children, as a friend He will not deny His people, as a Creator He will not forsake the work of His own hands. He is faithful to His promises, and will never allow one of them to fail to a single believer. He is faithful to His covenant, which He has made with us in Christ Jesus, and ratified with the blood of His sacrifice. He is faithful to His Son, and will not allow His precious blood to be spilled in vain. He is faithful to His people to whom He has promised eternal life, and from whom He will not turn away.

This faithfulness of God is the foundation and cornerstone of our hope of final perseverance. The saints shall persevere in holiness, because God perseveres in grace. He perseveres to bless, and therefore believers persevere in being blessed. He continues to keep His people, and therefore they continue to keep His commandments. This is good solid ground to rest upon, and it is delightfully consistent with the title of this little book, "all of grace." Thus it is free favor and infinite mercy which ring in the dawn of salvation, and the same sweet bells sound melodiously through the whole day of grace.

You see that the only reasons for hoping that we shall be confirmed to the end, and be found blameless at the last, are found in our God but in Him these reasons are exceedingly abundant.

They lie first, in what God has done. He has gone so far in blessing us that it is not possible for Him to run back. Paul reminds us that He has "called us into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ." Has he called us? Then the call cannot be reversed for, "the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." From the effectual call of His grace the Lord never turns. "Whom he called them he also justified, and whom he justified them he also glorified:" this is the invariable rule of the divine procedure. There is a common call, of which it is said, " Many are called, but few are chosen," but this of which we are now thinking is another kind of call, which betokens special love, and necessitates the possession of that to which we are called. In such a case it is with the called one even as with Abraham's seed, of whom the Lord said, "I have called thee from the ends of the earth, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away."

In what the Lord has done, we see strong reasons for our preservation and future glory, because the Lord has called us into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ. It means into partnership with Jesus Christ, and I would have you carefully consider what this means. If you are indeed called by divine grace, you have come into fellowship with the Lord Jesus Christ, so as to be joint-owner with Him in all things. Henceforth you are one with Him in the sight of the Most High. The Lord Jesus bare your sins in His own body on the tree, being made a curse for you and at the same time He has become your righteousness, so that you are justified in Him. You are Christ's and Christ is yours. As Adam stood for his descendants, so does Jesus stand for all who are in Him. As husband and wife are one, so is Jesus one with all those who are united to Him by faith one by a conjugal union which can never be broken. More than this, believers are members of the Body of Christ, and so are one with Him by a loving, living, lasting union. God has called us into this union, this fellowship, this partnership, and by this very fact He has given us the token and pledge of our being confirmed to the end. If we were considered apart from Christ we should be poor perishable units, soon dissolved and borne away to destruction but as one with Jesus we are made partakers of His nature, and are endowed with His immortal life. Our destiny is linked with that of our Lord, and until He can be destroyed it is not possible that we should perish.

Dwell much upon this partnership with the Son of God, unto which you have been called: for all your hope lies there. You can never be poor while Jesus is rich, since you are in one firm with Him. Want can never assail you, since you are joint-proprietor with Him who is Possessor of Heaven and earth. You can never fail for though one of the partners in the firm is as poor as a church mouse, and in himself an utter bankrupt, who could not pay even a small amount of his heavy debts, yet the other partner is inconceivably, inexhaustibly rich. In such partnership you are raised above the depression of the times, the changes of the future, and the shock of the end of all things. The Lord has called you into the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ, and by that act and deed He has put you into the place of infallible safeguard.

If you are indeed a believer you are one with Jesus, and therefore you are secure. Do you not see that it must be so? You must be confirmed to the end until the day of His appearing, if you have indeed been made one with Jesus by the irrevocable act of God. Christ and the believing sinner are in the same boat: unless Jesus sinks, the believer will never drown. Jesus has taken His redeemed into such connection with himself, that He must first be smitten, overcome, and dishonored, ere the least of His purchased ones can be injured. His name is at the head of the firm, and until it can be dishonored we are secure against all dread of failure.

So, then, with the utmost confidence let us go forward into the unknown future, linked eternally with Jesus. If the men of the world should cry, "Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her Beloved?" we will joyfully confess that we do lean on Jesus, and that we mean to lean on Him more and more. Our faithful God is an everflowing well of delight, and our fellowship with the Son of God is a full river of joy. Knowing these glorious things we cannot be discouraged: nay, rather we cry with the apostle, "Who shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?"

From All Of Grace - Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

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If, however, you are troubled about the power of sin, and about the tendencies of your nature, as you well may be, here is a promise for you. Have faith in it, for it stands in that covenant of grace which is ordered in all things and sure. God, who cannot lie, has said in Ezekiel 36:26:
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

You see, it is all "I will," and "I will." "I will give," and "I will take away." This is the royal style of the King of kings, who is able to accomplish all His will. No word of His shall ever fall to the ground.

The Lord knows right well that you cannot change your own heart, and cannot cleanse your own nature; but He also knows that He can do both. He can cause the Ethiopian to change his skin, and the leopard his spots. Hear this, and be astonished: He can create you a second time; He can cause you to be born again. This is a miracle of grace, but the Holy Ghost will perform it. It would be a very wonderful thing if one could stand at the foot of the Niagara Falls, and could speak a word which should make the river Niagara begin to run up stream, and leap up that great precipice over which it now rolls in stupendous force. Nothing but the power of God could achieve that marvel; but that would be more than a fit parallel to what would take place if the course of your nature were altogether reversed. All things are possible with God. He can reverse the direction of your desires and the current of your life, and instead of going downward from God, He can make your whole being tend upward toward God. That is, in fact, what the Lord has promised to do for all who are in the covenant; and we know from Scripture that all believers are in the covenant. Let me read the words again:

A new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give an heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19).

What a wonderful promise! And it is yea and amen in Christ Jesus to the glory of God by us. Let us lay hold of it; accept it as true, and appropriate it to ourselves. Then shall it be fulfilled in us, and we shall have, in after days and years, to sing of that wondrous change which the sovereign grace of God has wrought in us.

It is well worthy of consideration that when the Lord takes away the stony heart, that deed is done; and when that is once done, no known power can ever take away that new heart which He gives, and that right spirit which He puts within us. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance "; that is, without repentance on His part; He does not take away what He once has given. Let Him renew you and you will be renewed. Man's reformations and cleanings up soon come to an end, for the dog returns to his vomit; but when God puts a new heart into us, the new heart is there forever, and never will it harden into stone again. He who made it flesh will keep it so. Herein we may rejoice and be glad forever in that which God creates in the kingdom of His grace.

From All Of Grace - Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/all_of_g.htm

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makrothumia

I want to be very clear that I wholeheartedly agree with the need for believers to discover the life of faith TUC and Marc have been advocating.

They are simply expressing Paul's heart where he stated his purpose to the saints at Colossae -"to present every man perfect in CHRIST Jesus ....my purpose is that they may be encouraged in hearnt and knit together in love unto all the riches of the full assurance of understanding unto the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the mystery of God the Father and of CHRIST, in Whom are ALL THE TREASURES of wisdom and knowledge are concealed."

This is a beautiful purpose, and the very reason God gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. The saints must be equipped and enables to grow up unto the unity of the faith and the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God - unto that PERFECT (mature/complete) man.

I am in 100% agreement with their desire for believers to experience this abundance of grace that has already been given. Through His own glory and virtue we have these exceedingly great and precious promises through which we are made partakers of the divine nature and escape the corruption that is in the world through lusts.

Where we seem to be talking past each other "possibly"? is "our" part in "appropriating" what God has already completely and freely given. Every provision for life and godliness has been given already THROUGH the KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. The fullness of the godhead dwelt bodily in CHRIST and the Spirit takes from this fullness and declares it unto us and we receive grace for grace.

Both TUC and MARC believe bad teaching can hinder this process. They also believe that speaking the truth will help others "hear" so that they will experience the "hearing of faith" though which God works powers and the Spirit is received.

Appropriating what God has provided is not a one time event, but a process of increasing capacity based upon "how you hear." It can be a great event, resulting from things coming together in a marvelous timing. Those who have are given more, and those who do not have lose even what they presume they have. Poor hearing will have a direct bearing upon appropriating what God has already fully and freely provided. The good and noble heart, that hears the word, welcomes it, understands it, and takes heed and perseveres will be the heart where the full potential of the seed is experienced.

This is why we need to learn to carefully "hear what the Spirit is saying." We have received the Spirit so that we might understand what God has already given. The Spirit desires to make these things fully known to us and He does so by declaring them.

But not all men are "spiritual", and the natural mind does not receive the things of the Spirit. Paul himself said he expounded spiritual things to "spiritual" men. He could not peak to the Corinthians as "spiritual" men but carnal, mere infants IN Christ. All of what God has given was available to them, but they lacked the capacity to fully receive and appropriate it because of their condition. Our growth rate affects our ability to receive and understand; this has a direct bearing upon our capacity to appropriate what God has provided through the knowledge of Christ.

Believers must be dynamically involved in the process of developing this capacity. This process can be helped and hindered by "how we hear" and "what we hear". The believers in Hebrews were not developed to hear the deeper teachings of righteousness because their hearing was dull and their senses had not been trained to discern good and evil. They had not progressed sufficiently to receive solid food.

Believers must "grow up in the grace and knowledge of our Lord." This process involves "ridding ourselves" of hinderances and stripping off the old man. We must learn to "keep in step" and work with the Spirit to put to death the practices of the body. We must receive help mortifying our members upon the earth.

This process is not automatic - but dynamical synergistic and progressive. He works in us and we CO-operate with the work. Just as it is impossible to make an ounce of progress apart from Him, it is equally impossible to fully experience the grace He has already given without our own diligent growth and appropriation which develops the capacity to fully appropriate
what is already ours by His grace.
Makrothumia


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sermonindex

Macrothumia,

What do you think is meant by the word "perfect"?

We are getting to where the rubber meets the road.

marcmc

J
JFW

Brother Alan,

I find your words to be precisely what I find the scriptures to declare and far more mature than my own attempts to express said findings.
I also wholeheartedly agree with brother Tuc and Marc on the same issues of faith you outlined.
Though my words may be clumsy, we are in agreement dear brother:)

M
makrothumia

Perfect in the Greek simply means fulfilling the purpose intended.

In his case the purpose was "let us make man in our image" so those fully conformed unto the image of the last Adam have reached the intended end.

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sermonindex

Makrothumia Wrote

"In his case the purpose was "let us make man in our image" so those fully conformed unto the image of the last Adam have reached the intended end"


And what is the image of the last Adam?

The idea of perfection is a profound one. Christians read it and then say "God wants me to be perfect" and then you have a thousand differing ideas on what that is and a thousand different ideas on how we achieve it.

Could it be that God has made it absolutely simple? Could God have hidden a simple truth all along? Could a a small child quickly see it, agree with it and live it?

We are building a Church but God is revealing a Kingdom. Could perfection be the Law or Rule of the Kingdom? Could it really be that easy?

The Jews missed their mark and the Church has missed it worse. But neither knows it.

marcmc

N
noone

tuc,

Thank you a million times for your post! It puts my own journey into fabulous words!

I have not read every page or response, but in seeing that this is going on for 10 pages and the responses I have read it breaks my heart to see the splitting of hairs and not seeing the joy we should all be sharing that a person has "seen" Jesus! AMAZING! HALLELUJAH!

I get it tuc!

Keep on proclaiming!

The joy of seeing and beginning to know just a smidgen of our Father's love, His life living and breathing in you, it begins as a small seed inside of us, but as we surrender and surrender(our part) it will grow and grow(His part) into an enormous vine(picture an old house covered by an all encompassing vine, we are his house) that will eventually encompass every bit of us on the inside to allow Him to completely live out from us. He is the vine! He is the life!

This verse says it all!
Galatians 1:11-12(AMP)

11 For I want you to know, believers, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel [it is not a human invention, patterned after any human concept]. 12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a [direct] revelation of Jesus Christ.

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This is the reason why I proclaim it.

N
noone

2 Chronicles 20:11-13(AMP)

11 here they are, rewarding us by coming to drive us out of Your possession which You have given us as an inheritance. 12 O our God, will You not judge them? For we are powerless against this great multitude which is coming against us. We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on You.”

13 So all Judah stood before the Lord, with their infants, their wives, and their children.


15 He said, "Listen carefully, all [you people of] Judah, and you inhabitants of Jerusalem, and King Jehoshaphat. The Lord says this to you: ‘Be not afraid or dismayed at this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God’s. 16 Go down against them tomorrow. Behold, they will come up by the ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the river valley, in front of the Wilderness of Jeruel. 17 You need not fight in this battle; take your positions, stand and witness the salvation of the Lord who is with you, O Judah and Jerusalem. Do not fear or be dismayed; tomorrow go out against them, for the Lord is with you.’”


This prayer is where it has to begin with a "churched" or "religious" person. To finally admit that everything we know has not brought us to our inheritance of the rest that God provided through Jesus. To lay down EVERYTHING we think we know or think we truly believe and STRICTLY CRY OUT that "we don't know what to do, but our eyes are upon you" "then be still and watch." Then can God's hands be untied and the supernatural and miracle of the direct revelation of who Jesus really is can come. Oh, sweet freedom!!!

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noone qoutes
"11 For I want you to know, believers, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel [it is not a human invention, patterned after any human concept]. 12 For indeed I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a [direct] revelation of Jesus Christ."


This might seem like a simple question but what is the Gospel and did Paul write it down for us?

I'm not being silly this is a real question that 19 out of 20 Christians can't answer.

marcmc

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It's not just "hearing" but obeying (stepping out in faith), that brings spiritual growth.

This life of faith is walked out in obedience and trust and then you understand and gain knowledge of Christ.

Look at this scripture. Jesus said, if you do His will (obey what the Spirit of God tells you throughout each day then you will gain knowledge (of the holy). God is not obligated to tell us why before we trust Him and obey.

John_7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

N
noone

Obeying in faith yes, just like the tribe of Judah had to:

"you will find them at the end of the river valley, in front of the Wilderness of Jeruel. 17 You need not fight in this battle; take your positions"

They had to step out in faith by going to the end of the river valley and take their positions. Amazing depth of truth right there. :)

What is the gospel?? hmm... yep 19 out of 20 would probably say different things or the standard "Jesus and his salvation that he provided through the cross."

To Paul it would be different I think...he already believed in God and the Law and was waiting for their Messiah, so his mindset was probably TOTALLY different than mine or most. I think part of his revelation was Romans 8, walking in the Spirit of Life, that Jesus was his rest/life from trying to fulfill the Law, to be good enough for God. And Jesus came to fulfill the law and all those works to be made acceptable to his creator. He could now trust and rest in Jesus to bring him to that place on earth and in eternity. Paul seemed to see Jesus as the life that now lived in him and changed him and Paul definitely became aware of other peoples earthly needs as well as eternal just as Jesus was.
But you know Jesus said different things to different people on how to obtain eternal life....

Did Paul directly write it down... I don't think he put a 12 step program on how to attain it. I think he wrote a vast amount of knowledge on his walk that we can apply to ourselves, BUT we must know Christ for ourselves and that can look different for all of us as we become better acquainted with Jesus. I sure know that I look completely different today than I did even 2 years ago.

Didn't Paul say "for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection]."

Seems like Paul wrote A LOT of times about "knowing Jesus" and the "knowledge of Him." Seems like that better be what were about and letting the Holy Spirit teach us this step by step as HE sees fit to reveal!

My goodness who can explain all what "knowing Jesus" really means... Jesus is all things to all men....to vast and great and mighty to just write into a 12 step program. Hallelujah His ways are higher than mine! I rest in this truth every day!

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noone,

To stay with your 12 step analogy in a very real way the first 12 Chapters of Romans fits the bill perfectly.

Paul was hindered from personally going to Rome in the providence of God and therefore sent them a letter. We call it Romans and it is the perfect systematic presentation of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus.

Romans is what he preached in Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus and on. Those epistles are the follow up letters to deal with specific issues and concerns that the Holy Spirit allowed because these together encompass the gambit of issues that would arise in the years to follow.

Romans is the context that all other epistles build on and Romans must remain as the context for all the other epistles.


Romans 1:8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. 13Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Marcmc

N
noone

Yes, what a great gift of Romans 1-12.


"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the
power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Once again he uses the words "power of God," "believeth," "revealed," "faith to faith." Those are Key words, supernatural words, something beyond ourselves that is from faith to faith, a growing of the seed within us, a continual supernatural, miracle growing inside of us to KNOW Christ. Not read this...do that...and voila your "saved." Not a one size fits all other than the cross of Jesus and that is our common denominator...not anything else, or anyone. :)!!!!!!

M
makrothumia

Everyone who has contributed to this thread believes that Paul lived in the Revelation of faith in Christ that we are discussing.

Here is the observation: Paul himself taught the Corinthians for 18 months and yet at least some of them in this church he founded and discipled he describes as "carnal" and "infants".
I do not think any of us would place the blame for that upon the teaching or the teacher; why then had they not experienced the faith life we have been discussing? Where does the problem lie?

Something to ponder with far reaching implications.

Makrothumia

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sermonindex

The problem lies in each person's heart.

We are not clones that somehow with the appropriate "programming" will all act and react the same way with the same responses towards the Lord. Proper teaching, even biblical teaching, even teaching from annointed men like Paul, guarantee nothing when it comes to each of our hearts.

Compare:
King David with King Saul
Cain with Abel
Aaron with his two sons
Eli with his two sons
Jacob with Esau
Isaac with Ishmael
John with Judas
Moses before the wilderness and Moses after the wilderness (God's dealings).

What was it about Paul's heart that drove him so deep into Christ?

You would think Joab, David's general would have learned a thing or two hanging around David all those years, but he did not.

We cannot be satisfied with apprehending knowledge, we must apprehend Christ!

And...we must let Christ apprehend us! I would say they both go together. You are not apprehending Christ if He is not apprehending you. One cannot go deep and the other remain superficial.

The apprehending of Christ and allowing Him to apprehend us is where most of us fail. We go so far and then won't go any further. Why? The reasons are as different as each heart.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


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sermonindex

But Didn't God fix that by taking away the old heart and giving us a new one?

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It should be clearly understood that while the victory tuc and I are speaking of is the inheritance of every single believer very few manifest it.

It should also be understood that what tuc and I are talking about is not the high call of God that Paul refers to. This is Sanctification 101.

marcmc

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sermonindex

by tuc on 2015/10/15 16:00:20

But Didn't God fix that by taking away the old heart and giving us a new one?

You don't understand what this new heart is. This new heart is Christ in you.

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Why does the Word of God have to discern the thoughts and intents of Christ's heart?

No, the heart of man is our soul. And your spirit was regenerated and joined to the Lord but your soul needs to be sanctified by the Holy Spirit and the Word.

Your soul is your own faculties comprised of your will, your mind and your emotions. This is also referred to in the scriptures as the heart of man.

Christ's heart is your new heart and we are to apprehend Christ, renew our minds, and bringing our will in line with His will so that His will does become our will. Just because "we have the mind of Christ", does not mean that we are choosing to bring our will into harmony with His will every minute of every day. We must in faith, apprehend EVERYTHING.

Heb_3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

The process of sanctification is not embraced by all with the same fervor.

This is why many can have the same annointed teaching, yet be in different places in their walk with God. It all still comes down to Faith and Believing. And true believing, will act in faith upon the word that the Spirit speaks to you.

The heart of Christ does not have to be established with grace but ours do.

Heb_13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

Progressively in this walk of faith, the goal is for our hearts to become one in purpose, behavior and character with the Lord's heart. That is being conformed to the image of Christ. This is not automatic. It requires our utmost for His highest (everything!).

Very few manifest the victory because very few are willing pay the cost to apprehend it.

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sermonindex

I'm shocked to say that for the most parti agree with Julius21.

it is the soul that is sanctified. The mind is the perticular area of problem, due to the training it received by the fallen nature we inherited from Adam. It is programmed in rebellion against the light and the truth. And often times it was seriously addicted or needful of activities to deal and cope, in other cases it may have truly loved a certain sin.

This mental state has hard wired certain specific triggers and connections to the nerve centres of the flesh and together these two systems can be a serous problem to the believer. Often there is an initial freedom that comes from conversion that breaks off permanently or temporarily past addictions or behaviors but many find that with the passing of time some of these creep back and concern and haunt the believer.

The idea of faith and believing seems to keep getting put forward here. I do not hold to that position. While I'm not saying they do not play a role it is my clear experiential conviction that the believer has to understand certain truths. Its is revelation knowledge "epiknosis" that must break in the heart before faith or confidence in Gods power goes to work. This transformation sia renewing of the mind, the knowledge well the mind now is connected to so changes it that it literally becomes addicted to God and His if her affection.

You cannot turn from something to nothing, your mind works by moving from a current thought to the next thought, it switches forward continually. This switching is why a believer can be praising God in Church feeling like they are on the top of the world and then see a pretty girl in Swiss Chalet at lunch and fall into lust for the restof the week.

The transformed mind is a mind that is at rest, it sits and waits to hear the next awesome truth from the throne of God, it craves, delights, desires and lusts for more of God, His ways and His presence. The mind set on the kingdom becomes increasingly disinterested in anything of the world, it regards it as meaningless, shallow, repulsive and yearns with compassion to see it healed.

The victorious Christian life I'd effortless. I know some on here keep trying to promote the idea of diligence and precautions. That is simply not true. Once you know who God is, what He did for you in Christ, who you are now and that to the eyes of the Law of Sin and death your invisible having been hidden in Christ. You will be free indeed. For me the truth is the victory and all Gods supply comes rushing to my heart and mind daily confirming and enforcing It as His covenant pledge confirming HIS OWN VICTORY IN ME.

marcmc

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Hey marc, I pretty much agree with what you just said, too. :-)

The idea of faith and believing seems to keep getting put forward here. I do not hold to that position. While I'm not saying they do not play a role it is my clear experiential conviction that the believer has to understand certain truths.

Faith is like breathing, we don't think about it. It is the faculty of reception that God has given us that we may receive Him because He is the Giver and the Lord. We were created with this simple faculty in order to be totally dependent on God. Those who are in Christ should not have to struggle to "work up faith". To the Believer, Faith is not an option just like breathing is not an option. You either function as God designed for you to function (in total dependence on Him) or you prostitute yourself to idols.

The gift of God is eternal life and the reception of that gift is faith. Faith doesn't do anything, it receives. We exercise faith to receive Christ and to receive the continued revelation of Christ in our walk.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"For whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). You were created to please God. Without faith it is impossible to please Him, so without faith, whatever you do, no matter what it may be, is sin!

The only alternative to faith is sin!

That is why Satan presented Adam and Eve with an alternative to faith (trusting God). Adam and Eve chose to NOT trust God's word and turned toward the "alternative". They chose not to "breathe" or function as they were created to function (in total dependence and trust in God). They chose not to trust God, but to act on their own and become dependent on another who does not require faith, because Satan remains hidden. He wants us to walk by sight. He wants to discourage faith in our walk. He tricks people to think they are acting independently and on their own. This is the same strategy he employs for Christians, he seeks to offer alternatives to faith.

Satan will always present us with seemingly reasonable alternatives to faith and all of them are actually sin. If Satan can get us to act in any way other than total dependence on God then we are acting in sin and defying the Lord. And this is regardless of how good intentioned we are or how lofty our motives or how wonderful our good deeds may be.

Its is revelation knowledge "epiknosis" that must break in the heart before faith or confidence in Gods power goes to work. This transformation is a renewing of the mind, the knowledge well the mind now is connected to so changes it that it literally becomes addicted to God and His if her affection.

Yes, I believe I know what you are saying and I can agree with it. Faith receive revelation knowledge from the Lord Jesus. Faith involves more than just an academic nod. Faith is never the intellectual acceptance of a system of beliefs or body of doctrine. Faith is always faith in a Person, trust in Jesus Christ.

Faith doesn't make us doers for God but receivers of God. Faith does not make your salvation it receives it gratefully.

M
makrothumia

Brother Marc said
"The victorious Christian life is effortless. I know some on here keep trying to promote the idea of diligence and precautions. That is simply not true. "

II Peter chapter 1 written to believers who are being reminded of the exceeding great and precious promises are exhorted by Peter to "give all diligence to ADD to the faith they already had.

Peter goes on to say that those who "do these things" (like give all diligence to add to their faith) will never fall. He even goes on to say that by doing this believers will make their calling and election sure. "

The author of Hebrews warned his readers to "not become lazy" but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises".

These apostles did not see "diligence" as contrary to faith, rather as a compliment to its completion like James who saw faith working together with our works and wrote "faith is perfted" through such works.

Paul lived IN this faith life and expressed its result in terms of striving, laboring, straining forward. To those with eyes on the prize, it is not draining, it's enlivening.

We are even admonished IN faith to fix our eyes upon JESUS who is the finisher of our faith while we run with endurance.

Diligence is not an enemy of faith - it's a means of our Lord perfecting it as we "diligently" seek Him.

As to precautions, I'd say putting on the full armor of God is a word that encourages prudent precaution. We do have an adversary and we are at war, even if the faith life is easy.

Makrothumia


J
JFW

Brother Alan,
Yes and Amen!
Tracking with you on this and honestly it's been a while where I read another's words and didn't get "checked" in my spirit, but (for me) in this thread yours pass through my filters cleanly.

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sermonindex

I for one have zero interest in debating a truth I have walked in for 15 years now. I read hundreds of Chrstian books that teach the hard way some here speak of and in my dispare God showed me the easy way. It's called REST for a reason. He showed me how to yoke myself to the easy load and light burden.

Jesus defeated every enemy Christians are fighting against. The fact that your fighting proves your not resting in His victory for you.. A flower does not struggle to bloom, a leaf does not struggle to bud and the fruit of the Spirit is exactly that, the fruit of the SPIRIT.

2 Corithians 5:20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 5:15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Give the delivery system whatever name you like I recieved it as a free gift.
And I will thank Him for it for eternity.


marcmc

M
makrothumia

Dear Marc, you wrote
"Jesus defeated every enemy Christians are fighting against. The fact that your fighting proves your not resting in His victory for you.."

Not all believers wrestle and fight for themselves, there are those who fight and agonize "IN" the grace of Christ and who "wrestle" in prayer for others to know and experience this same grace.

Didn't Paul "strive", even "groan as in labor pains", not to be saved himself, but to see others experience the fullness of the salvation he was already living in.

"Now I rejoice in the suffering FOR YOU, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, FOR THE SAKE OF HIS BODY, which is the church.....to whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you the hope of glory. Him we preach, WARNING every man, and TEACHING every man in all wisdom, so that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus, unto which WE LABOR (work to the point of exhaustion) AGONIZING according to HIS WORKING in me with power."

There are men who labor, agonize, strive, wrestle in prayer, not to "be saved" themselves, but to see others experience the wonderful salvation God desires for all men.

Words of warning seem very appropriate to believers who have become lazy, dull of hearing, and who are no longer taking earnest heed to the things they have heard.

Perhaps you no longer need any such help because you have arrived to the place you testify of; but there are many others that have yet to enter into His rest. To those who have not yet entered His rest, the message is - "Let us therefore GIVE DILIGENCE to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience."

Our Heavenly Father is ALWAYS at work. And those who live in His rest are always at work with Him. This type of rest is found even as we "wRESTle".

makrothumia


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Dear makrothumia,

Now your onto a different subject. The outward life, our ministry, our gift and the specific assignment each of us has been graced to fulfill in the Lord is the result of your personal victory in the Lord not the means of achieving it. Paul is talking about a different matter. This thread is how the believer walks in victory in their day to day life.

You will have zero lasting fruit in your call with pet, personal or secret sins in your life behind closed doors. Everything I have contributed in this thread pertains only to the individual believer walking permantly free from sin and self rightous effort in their own lives.

BTW I agree very much with the diligence to enter the rest. If I listed my day to day activity from 1993 - 2000 you would scream hogwash.

marcmc

M
makrothumia

Amen Marc,

I was sure that you believed that.

S
sermonindex

Christ's Life is the only true reality of a Christian.

Now I have died and my life is hid in Christ.

His life is inside of me, He is the source of my faith and trust

Any hold I have on Him only exists because of HIS hold on me.
His LIFE is always acting, always flowing, always working.

How do you define life? What does it look like?
The number one characteristic of Christ is LOVE.
GOD IS LOVE !

We all know 1st Cor. 13. This is love is the very nature and essence of God and Christ.
Now we have the source of all love with inside us.
I am embraced and apprehended minute by minute by HIS love towards me and I embrace Him back and respond to Him and others with His Love.

This Love NERVER ceases and really has nothing to do with me. It flows from Him inside me and as I experience it, I can let it out so others will see it and be affected by it.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

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sermonindex

This Love NEVER ceases and really has nothing to do with me. It flows from Him inside me and as I experience it, I can let it out so others will see it and be affected by it.

So, the love of God within you does have something to do with you in that it cannot manifest out of you without your cooperation. You can choose to manifest the love of God outwardly choose not to manifest it. It is your choice.

S
sermonindex

This is where it gets fun.

Notice in the parable of the vine that Jesus says love is the key! tuc is right love is the key to everything, it is the commandment Jesus is referring too. It is the Perfect Law of Liberty, it is the better way, it is the Light, it is the mind of Christ, it is the way the truth and the life for God is Love.

The tricky part is how do you manifest it? What is "Hesed" the God kind of Agape love? And how do I walk out my door and with my heart and mind fixed on it allow it to flow like a river to everybody?

Paul focused on the Mind of Christ, John called it walking in the Light and James said your tounge is the proof instrument of what's going on inside a believer.

The simple answer is esteeming every single person on the planet greater than yourself. With holiness through Christ death is your victory behind closed doors. Esteeming everyone greater than yourself manifests Christs life and glorifies the Father outside your door. It is impossible to do this without purity of heart and the supernatural Grace of God. That is why the world and non fruit bearers always esteem themselves first.

You cannot commit a single act other than Love when you esteem others greater than yourself. It is the rule, law and power of the Kingdom of God. It never fails.

Philipians is the blueprint to the mind of Christ who made himself of no reputation. It is the greatest truth the Lord ever showed me! It has flooded my life with rightousness, peace and joy!


Philippians 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

marcmc

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sermonindex

Jesus identifies with the Church as being one with it. We should esteem each other as Christ, Himself.

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Mat_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Matt 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

John 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

This is a very important book for our day and time.

The Hope of Israel
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/

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