I'm just wondering the different points of view out there on the subject of tithing. I believe that I am coming to the conclusion that "tithing" is an Old Testament principle while sacrificial giving is the New Testament model. I believe that we can learn from chapter 9 in 2 Corinthians that giving should be consistent, sacrificial, and cheerful. I bring up the subject because I have recently heard a preacher say that you will die and go to hell without giving God his 10%. Then quoted the verse in Malachi about robbing God and being cursed. I couldn't disagree more with that statement and honestly it makes me a little angry. I am not rich by no means but 10% is not very sacrificial. 5% to someone else could be extremely sacrificial. I believe that giving is a characteristic of the believer and not a command to the believer. Thoughts?
To tithe or not to tithe?
Everything a Christian does should be Spirit-led, period!
If a Christian's walk is not Spirit-led, then what do you have?
There is no passage in the NT that commands, instructs or even encourages tithing is for the Church. The only mention of tithing in an Epistle is Hebrews and that is using the tithing of Abraham to teach an altogether different point.
You are right to conclude that sacrificial, free will giving is the correct position for NT believers. Any one who teaches you will go to hell if you don't tithe is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Also a false preacher and a manipulator of truth.
The tithing teaching in the church is only supported and promoted to shore up the false practice of paid pastors and workers. The sooner the church gets rid of the salaried clergy system the better! It encourages the clergy / laity divide and is an enemy of the proper functioning of Christ's body.
Dear brother,
I have come to the same conclusion as you have but you seem to have touched a touchy subject [sic]. While I believe NT giving is of free-will, I also believe we are commanded to give. [e.g. In Matthew 6, our Lord said, 'When you give', not 'If you give'...]. I could be wrong in my interpretation but I don't limit it to just money. There are other resources at my disposal e.g. time, items necessary for daily living [food, clothing etc] etc.
@Brother Julius, if you give such a response when a fellow brother merely asks your opinion on a matter that's not related to salvation, I fear your reaction if an atheist questions your sanity for believing in an invisible God whose existence can't [at least from his point of view] be proven empirically.
Hi Theophila,
What verse in Matthew 6 are you referring to? I could not find it. By the way, please have your mind at rest, I have always been Christlike to Atheists. At least, that's what they tell me. :-)
JHerndon
If one begins to ponder the spirit-led Christian life many erroneous beliefs that are rooted in 'man-made' and 'man-dictated' doctrines will come to light. I like to drop seeds of truth and hints and motivate a person to think about the Christian walk and the activity and functioning of Jesus Christ within them. The only way a person is going to change their mindset is if they reach the truth by themselves without always being spoon-fed. You must SEE, I must SEE. I cannot walk this walk on what a man tells me. I must have revelation from the Lord and so must you. So, though I could write reams of information about tithing, I was trying to give you a hint. I would rather a person begin to think correctly concerning the totality of their walk and not just one aspect. You seemed like the kind of person that I could just drop a hint about the Christian walk being a spirit-led walk in all things and then just let you ponder whether tithing was spirit-led or even scriptural. It seems you have been doing a good amount of study on your own regarding this subject. HeyDave's reply was very good, by the way. He is very concise, much better than me.
With that said, I will drop more hints about the "Christian" law that is called tithing.
Let's ponder the following "fear preaching from the pulpit", whether it is the voice of the Spirit or not. Which ones do you think are the voice of the Spirit? From which source does this teaching come from? Heaven or Hell? Jesus Christ or Satan? Truth "easy to be entreated" or the "twisting of Scripture?"
1) The tithe is the Lord's. (So keep your hands off it)
2) If you don't tithe you are a God-robber. (And we know robbers are bad)
3) A curse will come on you if you don't tithe. (No one wants a curse. Pure fear and intimidation)
4) Tithing rebukes the devourer. (You have problems in your life because you don't tithe)
5) The tithe is the connection to the covenant. (No tithe and you are not in covenant)
6) The tithe redeems the other 90-percent. (No tithe and you lose the other 90%)
7) Tithing qualifies you to receive more from God. (No tithe and you don't receive squat).
8) Tithing puts God first in your life. (No tithe and you are not a committed Christian).
9) If you don't tithe, God will take that 10-percent from you. (Ouch! He'll get his take somehow. Kind of like the Divine Mafia)
10) If everyone tithed, churches would have plenty of money.
(It's your fault that churches are impoverished. YOU are either part of the problem or part of the solution).
11) Heaven will be shut up against you if you don't tithe.
(Ouch again!! Please God, I have to pay my bills or else they will throw me out on the street).
12) Miracle testimonies prove that tithing is God's will.
(You have no miracles in your life because God is not getting your payment).
There is no passage in the NT that commands, instructs or even encourages tithing is for the Church. The only mention of tithing in an Epistle is Hebrews and that is using the tithing of Abraham to teach an altogether different point.
Even if it is using the tithing of Abraham to teach another point it is still instructional for us on the subject of tithing. It tells me that Abraham paid tithe 400 years before the law and so he had no formal instruction on tithing that we know of. This would then indicate that he did it because he knew it was God's will to pay that tithe. Jesus embraced tithing but, of course, this was before He died and rose again.
As you can probably tell I am one who embraces the concept of tithing but I would not say that it is a perfectly clear concept in the New Testament and so I just hope that we can avoid judgemental speaking towards one another in this topic.
This topic has been discussed at length here before, here are a few threads;
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=1788&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Tithing is not a Old Testament Law !
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6984&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]"enforced" tithing?
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=9651&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]How about tithing nowadays?
In Christ,
I agree that we should not judge one another, but only the teaching because wrong doctrines nullify the finished work of Christ in a Believer's life and prevent him/her from really entering into spiritual union with Him. You can't be truly "In Christ" when you are observing laws, no matter how innocent they may be.
You are correct that Jesus referred to tithing when the Law was still in effect (before He died and sealed the New Covenant in His blood). Jesus was living during the Law and speaking to people who were under the Law.
Hebrews 7 has nothing to do with tithing in the New Covenant. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between the Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood to show us how far superior a priest Jesus is.
The book of Hebrews proclaims the superiority of the New Covenant. It says we have a better hope (7:19), better covenant (7:22)(8:6), better promises (8:6), better sacrifices (9:23), better substance (10:34), better country (11:16), better resurrection (11:35), and better outcome of our faith (11:40).
It shows that Jesus has a better name (1:4) and better blood (12:24), and that we now have a better cleansing of sin, a better conscience (9:14), and a better relationship with God, entering the true holy place in the heavenly realm.
This is what Hebrews 7 is all about! Showing us by tying into all the other "better" verses, that we do indeed have a far better (superior) Priest in Jesus Christ.
The verses above, are all from Hebrews.
Hebrews chapter 7 is showing us that Jesus is a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant. The Holy Spirit proves to us first that Melchizedek was a greater priest than any priest in the Old Covenant.
Let's look at Abraham and the tithe that he gave. What are some characteristics of this tithe and was it habitual.
1. First of all, there is no scriptural evidence that God told him to give it.
2. God's original promise and eventual covenant with Abraham was based on faith, alone. Nothing to do with tithing.
3. No where in Scripture did God instruct Abraham to give a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek.
4. No where in Scripture did God ever instruct Abraham to give any tithe.
5. Abraham was already incredibly rich and he was not made rich by giving a tithe to Melchizedek.
6. When Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek, it was the only time that he ever gave a tithe.
7. The scriptures do not mention anywhere that Abraham ever gave another tithe the rest of his life.
8. The tithe that Abraham gave cost him nothing. It was on the spoils of the battle. It was not part of his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds.
9. God's fulfillment to Abraham did not include a condition of tithing. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving.
10. Christian's have said that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant. There is no where in Scripture where this is stated.
11. Tithing had absolutely nothing to do with God fulfilling his promise to Abraham to make him a great nation, bless him, make his name great and that through him all the nations of the earth would be blessed. It was never mentioned except with Melchizedek and Abraham chose to do that only out of his spoils. Read
Abraham believed what God said and acted on it. There were no works involved.
12. God made Abraham rich on the basis of faith alone. Tithing was not the reason for Abraham's prosperity.
From Genesis to Revelation, God has never been in debt to man and He never will. Our relationship with Him is based on faith alone. We approach Him and love Him, on faith alone. And He rewards us and blesses us on Faith alone. He causes our soul to be fat (prosperous). His grace is far beyond any natural comprehension we can attain.
When you read the Bible you realize that information about the most important things in God's economy are not held back from us. They are revealed. Anything as important as an eternal, universal law of tithing would have been clearly communicated and not left to us to fumble about and figure out. However, the opposite is true. It is not plainly laid out as a NT ordinance of God.
Where is the transition teaching in the New Testament regarding how the Tithe has changed for NT Believers? It is no where to be found. How did Believers know not to practice the tithe anymore the old way, but somehow knew that this new, strange way was to practice it? This teaching certainly was not presented to the Gentile church in Acts 15. So, where is this transition teaching about observing the tithe in a brand new way because the NT tithe has absolutely nothing to do with the OT tithe.
This is probably the most obvious thing that everyone overlooks. The transition teaching from the OT Tithing Law to the NT Tithing Law does not exist, and they are vastly different, so how would people know that now they are to pay 10% of their paycheck after taxes to the church? That cannot be found anywhere in the Word of God.
Julius,
Thank you for the hints! And also I thought what you said about the transition teaching was really helpful. I could be wrong but my understanding is the the OT tithe actually adds up to roughly 23%? So the absence of a transitional teaching from OT tithing to NT tithing should raise some flags.
Bro Ron,
My problem is not that people tithe 10% what bothered me was the statement that God will send you to hell or your life will be cursed if you don't give the 10% I was taught this growing up. I believed it religiously. Some hard times fell on my mom and she wasn't tithing and I sat her down and told her she was cursed because she wasn't tithing. A few years later I talked with her again asking for her forgiveness because I put a burden on her that I found to be extra biblical. It angers me to think about how many people have similar stories because some preacher misled them. I know not every preacher who believes in tithing is a wolf in sheeps clothing. This is the teaching they have been taught their entire lives. I have no desire to start any threads that get out of control I was just curious to see what the different views out there were.
by JHerndon:
I bring up the subject because I have recently heard a preacher say that you will die and go to hell without giving God his 10%. Then quoted the verse in Malachi about robbing God and being cursed. I couldn't disagree more with that statement and honestly it makes me a little angry.
You cannot trust "man's" interpretation of the Word but TRUST God's word to speak for itself and THAT takes a close walk with God. It does make one wonder how big that guys church is and how much it needs to operate on a monthly basis, much of which is man 'ordained' and not God ordained?? If it is man ordained, then they can't trust for the funds and thereby need to make people feel guilty into giving 10%. ***I'm not saying every church is like that but we as the people of God need to pray where good ground is to be sowing our seed.
I speak from experience, the "MINUTE" you think you don't need to be giving to your local church is the 'minute' you need to leave and find good ground to sow in to. And I dare say that will be a long and prayerful journey.
I believe the reason most Christians are against the tithe is because they are against where to give it! I believe in giving whether it's Spirit-led or not because the Word says, "But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him?" 1 John 3:17
You may be against the 10% tithe but please do not be against giving 10% (+ or -) on a regular basis to help those in need.
God bless,
Lisa
Yes, the argument usually goes that tithing is abolished as part of the Old Covenant Law and we have the better promises of Hebrews 8.
Yet still, Hebrews 7 speaks of Abraham tithing and this would mean that the tithe is actually part of the Abraham's faith in action, before Old Covenant Law. Abraham is the father of those of faith, so tithing was a matter of faith, not law.
In Christ,
If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
The principle of giving is as a man purposes in his own heart, not as another man dictates for him to give.
The church is the people of God not a religious organization. I am not worried about Christians giving and in fact it's none of my business but what we all should be watching out for are people bringing mixture into the faith.
Again, if there is a such thing as a NT tithe, where is the apostles teaching on this? This is a major doctrine of many religious organizations today. Where is the scripture witnesses and the transition teaching?
Is it ok to give chickens and vegetables? Or is it 10% of net pay or is it gross pay and are we supposed to let men know how much we give so that we can prove we are faithful tithers? Where is the transition teaching from the OT to the NT? How did people know that the Church now requires money and not food? The tithe cost Melchizedek nothing, but not so with the supposed NT law of tithing. If Melchizedek is our model, then we should only pay from our soils AND what are the "spoils", today?
So many questions, yet no transition teaching from the NT APOSTLES.
"Is Tithing for Christians?" by Steve Gregg
_______________________
It is commonly taught in churches that Christians should tithe (a word meaning the giving of "a tenth” of their income) to their local church. Christians are sometimes told that they owe the first ten percent of their income to the church where they attend, and that any giving to other needy persons or ministries falls into a separate category called "offerings” and should be given only after the first tenth has been given to the church. Preachers sometimes speak as if the Bible actually teaches such a thing, although the Bible nowhere mentions what we today call a "local church,” and the New Testament never applies any duty of tithing to Christians.
Tithing was commanded to the children of Israel for the support of the Levites (Num.18:21). The Levites, who were consecrated to full-time ministry and could not be profitably employed, would enjoy a standard of living that approximated or was slightly higher than the national average. The Levites, in turn, contributed a tenth of their income to the priests for their support (Num.18:26-28). The system was designed to free-up a large number of men to minister in things of the tabernacle/temple and to teach the law to the people. The fraction "a tenth” was not arbitrary, but corresponded to the needs of the number of full-time ministers requiring support.
Ever since God abolished the temple and the Levitical priesthood, there remains no obvious reason why the tithe should continue to define a Christian’s measure of giving to God. The church generally does not release one full-time minister for every ten families (though this ratio would not be excessive), so there is no biblical or logical reason why the same percentage of the Christian’s income should be devoted to the church’s coffers as was required of the Israelites in their support of the temple clergy. This is, no doubt, why neither Jesus nor the apostles ever so much as suggested this duty to the disciples. The tithe was for the support of the ritual system of Israel. These ceremonial aspects of the Law were done away with in the coming of a better covenant.
Sometimes it is argued that tithing did not "go out with the Law” for the simple reason that it was practiced prior to the giving of the Law, and has, therefore, a validity of its own independent of the Law. The total evidence that tithing was practiced before the time of Moses consists of two passages in Genesis. In Genesis 14:20, Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of his recent conquest against Chedolaomer to the priest Melchisedek. Also, in Genesis 28:20-22, Jacob, awaking from his famous dream, vowed to give God a tenth of whatever prosperity God might give him in the time of his absence from Canaan. Do these passages teach or even hint that godly individuals regularly devoted ten percent of their wealth to God? Two isolated cases cannot establish such a pattern, since we never read of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Isaac, Judah or Joseph observing any such practice. Nor do we have record of Abraham or Jacob ever doing so on occasions other than these two recorded cases. We have no reason to believe that Abraham tithed regularly.Therefore, none can establish from Scripture that tithing was a recognized or mandated practice prior to the time of Moses. Furthermore, even if we did have a biblical basis for such a teaching, it does not follow that tithing continues as a duty into the New Covenant. Remember, circumcision and animal sacrifices (both commanded in the Law of Moses) were definitely regular practices prior to the giving of the Law, but this does not provide an argument for their continuance after the time of Christ.
Tithing is mentioned in the New Testament in three connections. Hebrews 7 simply recounts the story of Abraham and Melchisedek, without reference to any duty in this matter accruing to others. The Gospels record the saying of Christ that the scribes and Pharisees meticulously paid their tithes, while neglecting "weightier maters of the law” (Matt.23:23/Luke 11:42). Jesus states that they should have done both (i.e. paid tithes and observed the weightier matters), but this only states what was required of the Pharisees as men living under the Old Testament law, and tells us nothing of any ongoing duty for Christian disciples. Finally, we have the self-congratulating "prayer” of a Pharisee in a parable (Luke 18:12), who boasts of paying tithes of all that he possesses, but the parable does not go on to make this man a model for Christians to emulate.
It is not surprising that advocates of tithing do not make much use of these New Testament verses. The preaching usually centers upon the classic Old Testament rebuke of those who neglected to "bring all of the tithes into the storehouse” (Mal.3:10). The argument goes something like this:
"The storehouse is where you go to get your food. Spiritually, you get your feeding from your local church. Therefore, God commands you to give ten percent of your income to the church of which you are a member. Anything over that amount that you give is not your tithe, but an offering.”
One can easily speculate as to the motivation churches might have for teaching along this line. The only thing wrong with the above argument is that there is not one legitimate scriptural point contained in it. First, the "storehouse” was not where the Jews went to get their food. The storehouse refers to the storage rooms in the Jerusalem temple (Neh.10:38) where food was stored for the priests. They ate it there, and any surplus was given to the poor (Deut.26:12), but the idea was not that of a private pantry from which the tithing worshipper provided for his own sustenance. Further, it is not a given that every Christian gets his primary spiritual feeding from his local church. It is the very negligence of such feeding by the churches that has led to the proliferation on non-ecclesiastical ministries (sometimes called parachurch ) to make up for this deficiency. Finally, nothing in the passage is addressed to New Testament believers. The Christian’s standards for giving are defined in entirely different terms.
Those terms are found in the teaching of Christ, that one who would follow Christ must forsake "all that he has” (Luke 14:33/ cf. Matt.13:44-46). The ceremonial law served as a foreshadowing of the Christian revelation. The latter teaches that all of God’s people, having been "bought with a price,” are not their own, but are owned lock, stock and barrel by Jesus Christ (1 Cor.6:19-20). All of the believer’s time and all of his possessions belong to God””a fact foreshadowed in ceremonial law by the requirement of giving Him a representative token of each (one day of his week, and one tenth of his possessions).
In place of "tithing” the New Testament teaches "stewardship” (Luke 12:42; 16:1ff; 19:12-13/ Matt.25:14/ Titus 1:7). The Christian is a "steward”, or "manager,” of somebody else’s (God’s) possessions. He is not in a partnership with God in which God holds 10 shares and he holds 90. In coming to Christ, the repentant sinner surrenders everything to God, and claims ownership of nothing (Acts 4:32). From the moment of his conversion, the believer becomes responsible to manage every asset (monetary or otherwise) in the interests of his Master’s profit. Those seeking to reserve a share of their lives for themselves need not apply (Luke 9:23).
What, then, is the steward’s responsibility? He must discharge his trust in exactly the manner that his Master would do if He were in His steward’s shoes. What would God spend His money on? Well, the Scriptures give us all the guidance we need on this matter. Throughout Scripture, God expresses His concern for the plight of the helpless poor and the support of those who minister the Word of God. A timely gift to the poor is a gift to God Himself (Prov.19:17/Matt.25:37-40), and is the prescribed method of depositing treasures in heaven (Mark 10:21/Luke 12:33). Giving to the needy is merely an expression of the mandate to love our neighbor as we love ourselves (Luke 10:27-37).
The support of the Kingdom’s ministers is similarly an expression of our duty to love God, to seek first the Kingdom of God (Matt.6:33). These ministers include those who teach the Word of God (as the Levites were to do””Gal.6:6/1 Cor.9:11/1 Tim.5:17-18). This would include the pastor of one’s church (if he teaches God’s Word) as well as others from whom one receives spiritual direction and nourishment. It also would include traveling ministers and missionaries (Luke 8:2-3/Phil.4:16-18/3 John 5-8). There is such a variety of ministry””some more- and some less-needy, and some more-, some less-worthy of support””that a conscientious steward will do a bit of prayerful research before committing the Master’s funds to a given appeal for assistance. In the end, the discharge of one’s stewardship requires a great deal of prayer and leading of the Holy Spirit. It is nothing like such a simple matter as writing a check to the local assembly (which might be looking to replace the carpeting for the third time this decade) for a tenth of one’s paycheck.
We must also acknowledge that God would provide for the needs of His servants and their families. Therefore, a certain amount of our income must be devoted to the feeding, housing and clothing of our families (1 Tim.5:8). Nor is there any forbidding of a few things for enjoyment alone (1 Tim.6:17). How many such things? That is between the steward and his Master, and is not for another to judge (Rom.14:4). However, we must be on our guard against our own pervasive tendency to judge our own actions (and expenditures) more favorably than the facts would suggest. In eternity, our rejoicing will be proportionate to our self-denial in this life and our generosity to the poor and to the work of God.
In the century following the apostolic age, the Christians understood that tithing had been replaced by full surrender to God. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus wrote, "[The Old Testament saints] offered their tithes; but those who have received liberty set apart everything they have for the Lord’s use, cheerfully and freely giving them, not as small things in hope of greater, but like that poor widow, who put her whole livelihood into the treasury of God.” The Didache (early second century) certainly has Scripture on its side when it counsels, "Do not hesitate to give, and do not give with a bad grace; for you will discover who He is that repays you. . .Do not turn your back on the needy, but share everything with your brother and call nothing your own.”
If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.
That's exactly what I'm saying, it is a matter of faith. Nothing is mentioned about a payment system in Abraham's tithe, he just gave a tenth to Melchezidek as a display of faith. Perhaps we give more than that, perhaps less, but let it be an act of faith.
In Christ,
The least of my worries is whether Christians are giving because I know anyone who is walking with the Lord will be giving in many ways and expressions. Why is the religious system worried about how much money someone is giving to it? They must be worried for they have built a religious payment/tax system for the Church and yet there is no NT teaching on this.
Did you know that there were 3 kinds of tithes? Did you know that there is no command whatsoever in the New Testament about tithing?
"The practice of paying tithes is very ancient:for we find, Gen 14:20, that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, king of Salem, at his return from...
There were three sorts of tithes (bold are my words) to be paid from the people (besides those from the Levites to the priests); (1) To the Levites, for their maintenance, Num 18:21,24; (2) For the Lord's feasts and sacrifices, to be eaten in the place which the Lord should choose to put his name there Deut. 14:22-24; (3) Besides these two, there was to be, every third year, a tithe for the poor, to be eaten in their own dwellings. Deut. 14:28,29"
Do these things exist to, today? Do we have "Levites" maintaining the Temple sacrifice, or the Lord's feasts and sacrifices or do we only give to the poor every third year?
Are we supposed to use logic to extrapolate doctrines?
The Point of Logic that is used by the enforcers of Tithing -
Tithing was practiced before the Law, was made a part of the Law, and, therefore, should be practiced after the Law.
If the above statement were true, then it would be true regardless of the topic you were talking about. And, by being "practiced after the Law", it is meant that it becomes part of the New Testament and is a command given to all Christians today.
CIRCUMCISION
But we do not find that to be the case. For example, circumcision was practiced before the Law, was a part of the Law, but is definitely not a part of the New Testament after the Law.
God commanded Abraham to practice circumcision hundreds of years before the Law was handed down through Moses.
When the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant, circumcision was not brought forward into the New Covenant. There were many Jewish Christians who thought that circumcision should be made mandatory for everyone who put their faith in Jesus Christ. For them, to become a Christian was to become a Jew. And to be a Jew, one was still under Jewish Law.
One of Paul's biggest battles that he constantly fought was to distinguish between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Paul understood through the illumination of the Holy Spirit that it was critical to separate the former relationship between man and God through the Law (OT), from the new relationship between man and God by GRACE through FAITH in CHRIST (NT). And, since circumcision was one of the most obvious, physical, visible expressions of the OT, it was spoken to in no uncertain terms. Paul made it very clear that no requirement of the Old Law was to be brought forward into the NT.
Noah practice burnt offerings before the Law, burnt offerings were incorporated into the Law but they are no longer required after the law.
AFTER THE LAW
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Tithing - replaced with giving from the heart. (2 Cor 9:7)
Circumcisions - replaced with circumcision of the heart. (Rom 2:29)
Burnt offerings - replaced with living sacrifices (Rom 12:1) and the final sacrifice (Heb 9:12).
There are forces that will continue to give Christians "reasonable alternatives" and draw them away from walking by the Spirit.
by InTheLight on 2015/10/19 20:50:54If you are giving it should be a matter of faith. A payment system is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of compulsion/necessity and Paul says it should not be.
That's exactly what I'm saying, it is a matter of faith. Nothing is mentioned about a payment system in Abraham's tithe, he just gave a tenth to Melchezidek as a display of faith. Perhaps we give more than that, perhaps less, but let it be an act of faith.
In Christ,
Knowing how the "Law of Tithing" is preached today by manipulating men on one hand, ignorant men on the other hand, even sincere men, why don't you distance yourself from using the word tithing since it has become of system of bondage today and is not NT scriptural?
Giving today by the Christian is about whatever the Lord places on their heart and there is no percentage tied to it. It is not about money, or time or goods or maybe it is about a little of both. Who is qualified to say except the Holy Spirit in each individual's life? For sure, no man is qualified! And it has nothing at all to do with Melchizedek who is recorded as giving one time and of his spoils. It did not cost him anything!! He gave 10% of his spoils. Why didn't he give everything?
Do we really have to tell people who know the Lord that their giving should be an act of faith? I think we should spend more time exposing the false payment/tax system. Most Christians want to give and we should expose the systems that seek to bring them into bondage.
Well, I have said enough for the night. It is repugnant to me (and the Holy Spirit) when the people of God are manipulated and bewitched. I want to see my fellow Believers walking in the liberty of Christ, free to respond to Him and not being coerced by men under the guise of spirituality.
Knowing how the "Law of Tithing" is preached today by manipulating men on one hand, ignorant men on the other hand, even sincere men, why don't you distance yourself from using the word tithing since it has become of system of bondage today and is not NT scriptural?
For the same reason that I don't distance myself from the word 'baptism' even though some teach baptismal salvation.
I will quote something written by a member here on SI when discussing this subject; "Personally, I believe that it's easy to blame the law, when something comes that resists the flesh, and tithing definitely does that."
Have a good night and may the Lord bless you dear brother.
In Christ,
I will quote something written by a member here on SI when discussing this subject; "Personally, I believe that it's easy to blame the law, when something comes that resists the flesh, and tithing definitely does that."
Ron, I'm sorry, I read that over and over and don't understand it. Can you expand on it, please? You don't have to do it tonight. Any time, is fine.
JHerndon,
KingJimmy brought up a relevant topic last year on this forum: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=52054&forum=34
He discusses some of the practical realities of giving, as well as the relevant Malachi verses on tithing.
Tithing is indeed not part of the New Covenant. And, as KingJimmy puts it, "we are called to a different sort of stewardship and a different form of giving altogether".
I also believe that it's healthy to have a more expansive view on giving - not just in terms of finances, but of time and other resources as well.
Thanks, Yuehan. This one at 10:33 was really good. But, a lot of good posts in the thread you gave.
Russell Kelly seems to have an exhaustive amount of articles on this. Things I never thought of.
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/
I completely agree about giving not being strictly financial! You all have been very helpful! Thank you!
Glad you were helped and this thread can end early. :-)
by Julius21Glad you were helped and this thread can end early. :-)
:) But it won't... end early!! :) Or I should say, "We'll see!"
Why do do Christians tithe, when Jews don't tithe today? It should be what ever you purpose in your heart to give. One of the reasons churches push the tithes is because they have a huge budget that needs to be met.
Satan is the master of "reasonable alternatives", and he has a counterfeit for everything and anything that has to do with the heart.
Notice, that all of his "alternatives", replace Jesus with men and the heart with law, and of course he hides himself by working through religious men.
The Enemy replaces:
Jesus with men.
Holy Spirit with unholy spirit.
Law of Liberty with legalism.
Inward issues of the heart with external performance.
Conviction with guilt, oppression.
Are you saying that bringing ourself under obligation to give atleast 10% is legalism ?
add : Of which I would agree
Would you agree that the right thing to do would be to make ourselves available for the Lord to place on our heart (a feeling) that would direct us to whom and for how much to give ?
Add: Would that mean that our Our availability would release God's ability to meet the needs of those whom he desired ?
I personally believe that giving strictly 10% to the penny because that's what we feel is required can be legalistic. I believe we should give cheerfully and sacrificially. If we are giving 10% out of a fear of being sent to hell that doesn't sound cheerful. Also 10% to some might not be very sacrificial and 5% to others might be extremely sacrificial. In the book of Acts there is no set amount. They were giving everything they could give.
Religion relentlessly drums into your mind to perform, perform, perform. All you think about is how far short you fall and that you must perform more, give more until you burn out, leave one organization and go to the next.
The spirit-filled Christian does not think of these things, he is too busy loving the Lord and loving others.
World of difference between the spiritual man and the fleshly man.
I think this has been a great thread. I am in agreement. The tithe as a commandment went the way of the rest of the old covenant. It is not a New Covenant requirement, although giving is a vital (life giving) principle set forth. We should give cheerfully as we purpose in our heart. We should give sacrificially. Our faithfulness in giving is complemented by God's faithfulness in meeting our needs. I do think 10% is a good starting point. It is good to be disciplined in the matter of giving. But this is not a legalistic command. I give because I love the Lord, and because I love His body. I want to bless the body of Christ so she can be effectual in ministry in a world that uses money as the medium of exchange. I want to meet the needs of others. I want to express to God with my carnal things appreciation for His giving me all things that pertain unto life and Godliness. I want to demonstrate my faith in Him that He will meet all my needs. This should be the motivation for NT giving in my estimation.
10% tithe "as a starting point" should be held privately by people and not preached publicly. There are people on Social Security (or less) that give in many, many ways that are not necessarily financial and when they hear "10% is a starting point", especially from their spiritual elders/pastor, they feel obligated. This can be religious coercion that talks them out of finances they need for themselves or others.
We should never put laws on each other that govern the provision that God is supplying to them. It is not for us to tell another person what to do with their possessions or time.
I love to tithe, it is a very very enjoyable exercise of faith. Once I came to Christ everything I have became His, and I do believe I'll give an account to Him for how these resources/gifts were utilized to advance His kingdom.
It's interesting as sometimes He tells me to comp a service to a client or to give a larger amount to the church and these often happen at a time when in the physical, my resources are low... tho when I submit to His will in faith rather than rationalize not obeying, His peace becomes ever more tangible and the bills I may have been concerning myself with always get met in a timely fashion. As I see it it's not only the resources that are His but the debts too and that gives me a great confidence in His abilities and makes me even more aware of just how intimately He cares for His children:)
I love to give too, JFW. I think most true believers do and because of the life of Christ in them, it is normal for them to want to expend their life for the Lord and others. Giving is the nature of Christ.
Amen+:)
JHerndon:
I personally believe that giving strictly 10% to the penny because that's what we feel is required can be legalistic. I believe we should give cheerfully and sacrificially. If we are giving 10% out of a fear of being sent to hell that doesn't sound cheerful. Also 10% to some might not be very sacrificial and 5% to others might be extremely sacrificial. In the book of Acts there is no set amount. They were giving everything they could give.
And don't forget the debates about whether the 10% tithe should be based on before-tax or after-tax income ;)
It's good to consider David's perspective on giving (1 Chronicles 29:14):
"But who am I, and who are my people,
That we should be able to offer so willingly as this?
For all things come from You,
And of Your own we have given You."
"God’s work, done in God’s way, never lacks God’s support.”
- George Muller.
After Samuel tells Israel what it will be like to have a King over them (take 10% of their best goods and servants) the Lord tells Samuel to tell them to go back their respective cities.
1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
Men love to build "cities" for themselves and these cities require "kings" who will organize them and make sure they are paid for and run "properly".
Paul says that we do not have a "city" in this world and provides a rationale for going outside the camp. The "camp" being the religious "city" of Judaism and Jerusalem (but by extension, any religious structure counterfeited for the "Jerusalem above").
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
The people of God seek a city which is to come. Here in this world, we don't have a city that we can settle down in and make our abode and practice Christian religion. We aren't called to make large edifices, tall temples (steeples) or "sacred" buildings all replete with their religious rituals, procedures and codes of conduct. Jerusalem on earth today is considered sacred and other religions have built their sacred places, too. But Paul is telling us not to put our trust in physical Jerusalem (religious cities/structures made by men). We are New Covenant Christians and are not to put our trust in physical Jerusalem ( and everything associated with it).
We are citizens of the "city of God (Psa 87:3), the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:2), Jerusalem above (Psa 137:6)." Religious men have always engaged in "city-building" ever since they tried to build the "tower of Babel" (Gen. 11:4-9). What is it about men that they continue to attempt to construct a social, religious community not according to God's ways? You see how prophetic 1 Samuel 8, really is.
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain. (Psa 127:1)
What man builds is just another Babylon full of the evil of men's ways. At best, only a parody of Jerusalem above, the City of God.
Wouldn't you rather be a faithful, functioning Christian in the City whose builder and Maker is God? Participating as an overcomer in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual "city of peace", free from men's religious laws (tithing, sabbath, etc)?
Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The Enemy knows we exist in space and time and also knows that it is more convenient for us to walk by sight rather than by faith and so he is always offering reasonable alternatives. Even though the Church of Jesus Christ is a spiritual community of Believers "called out" of everything that is not of Christ in this world, Satan continues to offer counterfeits of the "heavenly Jerusalem" to draw us away from Christ and one another.
We live in the "holy place" of God's presence and not in physical religious structures on earth. And these "structures" are not just buildings, but they are doctrine, creeds, belief systems...men's religious laws.
We are partakers of an heavenly altar (partaking of Christ)...
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
That is outside the camp of men's religious structures...
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Heb 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
In a spiritual society (heavenly city)...
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Where God is worshipped with our whole heart, soul, mind and body each and every day...
Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Sharing with one another
Heb 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
And walking in mutual submission and respect for elders
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
On the plains of Shinar, where the tower of Babel was built, God came down to see what men were building and saw the rebellion in their heart as they built a city where THEY would be glorified. He destroyed their tower and brought confusion to them. Men have been in confusion ever since and they have been divided. Today, there are tall towers on street corners and the men are still divided as they continue to rebel against the "heavenly Jerusalem".
Evil was born on the Plains of Shinar and humanity was enslaved as they made war against the God of heaven.
Satan the King of "Babylon" has continued to build and God has continued to build and these two kingdoms are coming quickly to a more direct confrontation as is seen in the book of Revelation, Matt 24 and Luke 21, as Christians will be hated by all nations for His namesake. Babylon is bringing the world's financial, political and religious systems together, enslaving men and continuing to build the tower. Those who are faithful to the "City of God, heavenly Jerusalem", will be found out by the "earth dwellers".
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that DWELL ON THE EARTH shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OH HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Matthew 19:21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”
Mark 10:21 "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”
Luke 12:33 "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.”
Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.”
Seriously brothers and sisters, if we apply verses listed above, we could very easily establish doctrinal justification that the New Covenant storehouse or treasury is in heaven ”“ a spiritual treasury ”“ not a meeting place on earth, "where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth” (Which could be easily interpreted as greedy, corrupt religious leaders). Since we are now in a spiritual covenant with God, shouldn’t we be trying to distance ourselves from our natural mindset and begin thinking more spiritually? "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24) And According to the verses above, the way to give into the spiritual treasury is by giving to the poor, not some wealthy pastor and his temple building fund.
"Babylon" is where all false religions congregate and come from, for they all have one source - Satan, the king of Babylon.
Christians must look beyond the physical religious world that has been pulled over their eyes and discover the truth of the Scriptures.
Lord give us eyes to see You and your City and discernment to recognize the counterfeit.
10% tithe "as a starting point" should be held privately by people and not preached publicly. There are people on Social Security (or less) that give in many, many ways that are not necessarily financial and when they hear "10% is a starting point", especially from their spiritual elders/pastor, they feel obligated. This can be religious coercion that talks them out of finances they need for themselves or others.
I agree completely. I think 10% is a good starting point, not a required starting point. Most people can probably afford to give 10%. It gives a good place to establish a discipline of giving. But, if giving 1% is an act of faith for you, then you should not be condemned if you are giving 1%. God is pleased if your giving is done willingly and in faith.
I agree completely. I think 10% is a good starting point, not a required starting point.
After reflecting on this, I don't think it makes sense to impose a discipline on yourself since we are to walk by the Spirit. Your ears won't be open to more if the Spirit is trying to speak to you. And we really don't walk by regulation even if it is self-imposed.
Most people can probably afford to give 10%.
How do you know this information? And give 10% of what? If you are speaking about money, I would say most people probably don't have it in lieu of their other responsibilities and taxes.
From what I read, most people live paycheck to paycheck and won't have much at all to take care of themselves after they stop working. But, since they have been paying into the Church all their lives, maybe the Church will take care of them.
Adding the "Religious Tax" to the others. Some of these are applicable to Small Business Owners.
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
CDL license Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Permit Tax
Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
Gross Receipts Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Personal Property Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service Charge Tax
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Sales Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
It gives a good place to establish a discipline of giving. But, if giving 1% is an act of faith for you, then you should not be condemned if you are giving 1%. God is pleased if your giving is done willingly and in faith.
Who even keeps track of what percentage they are giving since God does not require such an earthly concept?
A "good place to start" is just to listen to the Lord and be willing to obey Him. That is all He asks. He is not asking for our help in creating an agenda for Him.
A favorite quote of the tithe teachers is the second part of Malachi 3:10. "Prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” I could confidently make the declaration that the greatest majority of the Christians that faithfully give 10% or more, under the tithe system, never see a return "blessing” so large they don’t have enough room to receive it. In fact, I find a lot of them having a hard time just making ends meet.
And I am not including the Christians that get themselves into financial bondage with large house and car payments trying to keep up with the Jones's, I’m referring to the ones who are having difficulty affording the basic necessities of life (food, clothing, water, and shelter). Yes, we all realize blessings encompass a lot more than just money, but money is a part of it, especially if the seed sown is currency, and financial returns are what the tithe teachers emphasize when referencing "blessings.” If this Malachi Old Covenant verse is for New Covenant believers, why isn’t it working? These brothers and sisters are "proving” God as they are told by their pastor to do for many years, yet very few see huge returns, financial or otherwise.
Could it be because they are not giving to the true temple "storehouse,” or maybe because the money is not going to the actual bloodline tribe of Levi as the Old Covenant commands? If you look closely at the "blessings” from the tithe system in the churches, isn’t it blatantly obvious the majority of the ones seeing the "abundant returns” are the ones collecting the tithes, (and their own close, blood family members)?
Julius:
I know that, like most people, I am prone to inconsistency and procrastination. Part of living in the flesh I guess. So, I find it good to establish some disciplines in my life so that I can be consistent. My wife and I give when we are led to give, and where we are led to give. We have, as an act of faith, and as a point of self-discipline, decided to look at our income and give 10%. Most of the time this goes to our local body. Sometimes God leads us to give it elsewhere. Often God leads us to give beyond what we have established as our own minimum amount. We do this, not because we are legalistic, and not because we do not follow the leading of God in giving, but rather because we want to be faithful to God in our material blessings just as we would in our spiritual lives. In fact, giving is spiritual. I see no difference in what we do as discipline in giving and what we also do as discipline in studying the word, or in prayer, or in fellowshipping with other believers. I would never say, "Why should I impose upon myself the discipline of prayer, time in the word, or fellowship?" I have simply made up my mind that those things are vital (life giving) to my Christian walk. I have also made up my mind in the area of giving, that I am going to worship God through consistency.
I have chosen 10%, because it is an act of faith. It forces me to trust God for some big ticket items that I could easily be saving for if I were not to give 10%. It is simply walking in faith for me. It is also something that gives me great joy. I am overjoyed that I can give 10%. I think this is a good place to begin. I guess I could just as easily said that 5% is a good place to begin, or $100 a month, or whatever. I just think it is good to have a discipline in place and be consistent. I think God rewards that. He who is faithful in little will be made ruler over much. If I am faithful in the carnal things, mammon, then I am demonstrating my ability to be trusted with the true riches, the things of the Spirit of God. I feel like this is a valid NT principle that has been put into place.
The important thing is that we recognize that we are not bound to the tithe. We are commanded to give as we purpose in our heart, but only insofar that our motive is right in doing so. We are told we will be blessed if we give out of a heart that desires to bless God, but not if we give begrudgingly.
So I would never be legalistic and impose a certain percentage on anyone. This does not stop me from having an opinion about the benefit of discipline in giving. I cannot find any place in scripture where discipline is giving is denounced. Quite the contrary, I find that Paul encouraged the churches to be disciplined in their giving so that they might be ready to give to the need of other churches.
The important thing is that we recognize that we are not bound to the tithe. We are commanded to give as we purpose in our heart, but only insofar that our motive is right in doing so.
Amen!
We are told we will be blessed if we give out of a heart that desires to bless God, but not if we give begrudgingly.
I'm sorry where is this in the Bible? I'm not saying it isn't in there, I just can't seem to recollect it.
Mr. Bill:
I think you are right. We are so quick to say that God does not curse us with curse because we are not tithing, because this was under the Old Covenant. Yet we are very quick to latch onto the blessing side of the Old Covenant.
There is ample New Testament scripture to support the fact that God blesses us for our faithfulness in giving financially into the Kingdom, but I appreciate your post. It is true. We handle the word inconsistently sometimes.
And, it is true that there are many who claim these blessings, who are only able to claim them because thousands of people are giving them the "tithe". Sad but true.
IMO the storehouse is a physical OT concept with not NT parallel. We give into God's kingdom so that the work of the kingdom can be done. If we gave into the kingdom of God where God tells us to give, rather than giving out of obligation and necessity based on pressure from those collecting the "tithe", the kingdom of God would be a lot better off, and the ones who preach giving and tithing for their own selfish gain would find their source drying up. And the true men and women of God would find themselves supported in a way that would take a lot of pressure off of them.
2 Cor. 9 brother. If we sow sparingly, we will reap sparingly. But if we sow bountifully, we will reap bountifully. Every man is to give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity. God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you always have what you need so that you may abound unto good works. (Somewhat of a quick paraphrase. You might want to look it up for exact wording.)
If I give joyfully, as I purpose in my heart, God sees to it that I am blessed so that I can continue to give. He goes on to say that he ministers seed to the sower and bread for your food. If a man sows faithfully, God will see to it that he has more seed to sow, and will make sure that he can eat himself in the process. In fact, the thought is continuous from verse 6 through verse 13.
And of course, we need to make the point that giving is not about money, though it may include it, but in experience with Christians all over the world, historical writings, etc., giving rarely includes as the primary medium, money.
Jesus blesses us with the abundance of His spirit, the abundance of grace and love and compassion and understanding. He wants us to give of ourselves as He gave of Himself, every day to those he brings in our path and many, many Christians do not have the luxury of just handing someone money and sending them on their way.
Somehow, today there has arisen a counterfeit of what true giving is and today, it is indeed primarily mammon and not the abundance of the giftings of the Spirit or the character of Christ.
At least we can say in Western culture, giving is most always associated with money and this is a gross misrepresentation of the Scriptures and the character of Christ who by the way, never asked for or received a "tithe"?
The reason that the primary medium of giving has become cash is because of the business structure of religious organizations, today. Blankets, clothes, food, lodging for a night or two, hospitality, won't pay the bills or salaries of those who expect to make a living from the congregation.
Agreed Julius. Giving is so much more than just money. I remember a time when I could not afford to give like I wanted to give, so I esteemed my time as extremely valuable and I gave time and labor. I was so blessed for this. I still think of it that way.
Travis, this is even deeper, what about the poor, or folks all over the world that don't even have any money or a church around within thousand of miles. But these folks give their time helping others everyday, are these folks not going to Blessed? according to the tithe preachers their not.
I've often wondered how many pastors would quit, if someone else paid the churches bills directly to the providers, and the congregation brought in material needs for the church to hand out, and the pastors were put on a fixed income.
Mr. Bill.
All of our church leadership works full time jobs in order to live. Perhaps one day this will change and they can live of the gospel as they give their lives to the gospel. I think that we have, especially in this nation, viewed the church like a business and have been tempted with coveteousness where money is concerned. I guess what you are suggesting would separate the called from those who chose for themselves to be pastors.
You can never reform the religious system. They will continue. That is a fact.
The Spirit-filled Christian is in "giving" mode all the time and is judged by no one but God.
Satan's counterfeit kingdom is all about mammon.
Julius: I have to agree 100% with that last statement you made. Giving is a character attribute of God, and those who are dead to self and alive in Him will have His attributes. And, God is the judge. Amen Brother!