Does the future exist "now?"

What are y'alls thoughts on this?

I don't know. Or, at least, I didn't until next week. Then I knew. Just wait. :)

Well Brother Todd,
I'm of the school of thought that suggests that "now" is all there ever is or was or will be.... When Abraham offered up Isaac it was (for him) right now, when Columbus landed in the West Indies it was (for him) right now,... As far as I can see that past doesn't exist apart from the present and neither does the future... So I guess I believe in an eternal now.
With each of the above examples the events themselves became a part of history but at the same time (pun intended) they also helped shape the present and so are still present in a sense. So it is with the future, what we do now shapes the future we find ourselves in both figuratively and literally.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding the question or not. When talking about the omnipresence of God I believe that tomorrow isn't just something God knows about but it's a place that He is. Thinking about stuff like this will really make your head spin lol.

It is a hard thing to think about. I have only one analogy that seems to help me. I have thought of it like a rat in a maze. The rat (me) can only see the present...the present corner, choice, hallway, etc. But the creator of the maze takes in the whole maze at once. He knows where I have been, and the result of every path that He may allow me to take, and He sees it all "right now". For Him, the entire maze is now. For me, it is one hallway, one corner, one choice at a time.

Brother Travis,
Ha! I like that bro:)
With your permission I may have need to use this analogy-

I am not a subscriber to an "open view" of the future (or the uglier name "Open Theism") which states that the future does not exist apart from events that God has promised will occur. This view suggests that the future exists in some quantity as contingencies and possibilities rather than fixed, and that God experiences time as a sequence of events.

I find this perspective interesting, and NOT heretical.

I DO believe that God INTENDS, DESIRES, and at times COMMANDS us to view the future as open to change. We are to pray as if our prayers can change the future, and I do tend to take the view that passages regarding God changing his mind, his plans, etc. as literal.

My current perspective is that the Bible's teaching on time is not and does not need to be logically consistent.

Travis-

I have heard similar analogies and it is a good one-- however it makes an assumption.

That assumption is that the future exists "now" for the Creator to "see."

I truly believe God is omniscient and omnipotent. He knows all there is to know.

But there are certain things He cannot do. He cannot make a sphere with corners or make pi = something other than 3.145.... or make 1 + 1 = something other than 2. This does not mean that God is not omnipotent.

It makes some people squeamish to suggest there are things God cannot do, or know.

If the future does not exist now, then God does not know the future because it does not exist. He sees possibilities and probabilities, better than we could ever hope to imagine, since he has all knowable facts at His disposal. But if the future does not exist now, He cannot know it. It is along the lines of making cubic spheres or crooked straight lines. He can't do it because they do not exist.

I realize that such thinking is challenging to most Christians because I think that most of us have always assumed that the future exists now. In other words, that an actual "me" doing something two years hence exists NOW.

I am not so sure of that assumption any longer.

[edit- jonathan- i just saw your post after i hit enter]

Interesting question. I would argue that the answer might actually be both "yes" and "no."

Why is the answer "yes?"

We know that the future exists. Why? Prophets prophesied the future -- even foretelling (under inspiration of the Holy Spirit) of Christ thousands of years before he was born and of the end of "time" as well. We know that God knows -- and makes known -- the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). We know that the Lord called to John on Patmos to "come up hither" and showed him things that "must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1). So, this points to a "future" that can be seen "now."

So, why would the answer be "no?"

I believe that the answer is "no" for the same reasons! When the prophets prophesied of future events, they were doing so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God is not confined to "now." I believe that "time" is a consequential construct of creation. I believe that the Lord sees time from the perspective of eternity -- yesterday, today and forever. It is a bit like the universe is something that can only be fully viewed from that perspective of eternity (almost like a book) whereas we are confined to this side of that "glass darkly" in the "now."

In this "now," I believe that we still have a free will to make decisions and either choose the straight path of the Lord or a crooked path. The Bible -- both old and new testaments -- is filled with instructions to CHOOSE. From our vantage point in the "now," we haven't even decided what we will be eating tomorrow but, as believers, trust that the Lord will provide tomorrow. This is because we have faith that He is there. In the vantage point of eternity, God is there. He is there in the past and there in the everlasting future.

It is interesting in that most scientists feel that "time is relative" too -- a product of temporal (or endless) creation. They believe that certain forces can make time behave differently relative to an individual point (and perspective) in space.

I do not believe that our decisions are pointless. When God gives us an ability to choose, I don't believe that he is playing a game of semantics -- i.e., "choosing" what was already "chosen" by God in a "past." We may be destined for a certain end from the timeless (neither past nor present nor future) vantage point of eternity, but our decisions still have very real consequences whether we want to carry that responsibility or pass along blame to God. After all, there is no "now" in eternity.

I don't know if this is really what you're asking, so I hope that I didn't digress too far from the topic.

Hi Chris-

I think your answer is a good potential solution to the problem.

I think part of the problem is that we as humans (well, at least me) have a hard time thinking of time as a distinct "thing." To me, time is simply a means of measuring duration. In other words, time is a tool, not a distinct thing in and of itself. To analogize, a "mile" is just a measurement. Miles don't really exist. You cant see or touch a mile.

But time, on the other hand, at least in the eyes of physics, is more than just a way to measure between two occurrences. Physicists say that time "began" when the big bang occurred. I have heard some Christians say that time began when God begat the Son. I have no idea what that means- it may even be heretical. But the idea of time having a beginning is more than my pea-brain can handle.

I guess another way of looking at my original question is whether the future is "settled." If the future does exist now, and it is settled, I think that creates a multitude of insurmountable problems, which you, Chris, seem to appreciate.

Brother Todd,
Yes I agree there are in fact several things God cannot or will not do, having said that He Himself is eternal and abides in eternity and not in time as we know it. While this may seem to us to infer that He must know what will happen but I don't find that the scriptures always say this is so. For example like Christopher said our choices affect the future, God gave Adam the ability to name the animals but it doesn't suggest that God knew what Adam would name them... also Adam was created as an eternal being and had the perspective that corresponded with God tho still was given tasks "in time", so as a potential God could know all the possible outcomes but I can't find in scripture that He did know the precise outcomes except in areas of prophecy.

As I understand it, time in the linear sense is a human construct and does not actually exist, or one could say is a by product of the fall of Adam.

Time as we know it seems to be very much bound up with our perspective.
For example when a 5 yr old has a birthday he only has himself as a frame of reference and so has lived 1/5th of his life over again,... whereas when a 40 yr old has a birthday it's only 1/40th of his life and so would seem to occur faster in reference to himself (cumulative experience) however when Christ is our frame of reference this changes everything as He is eternal and as we abide in Him and are conformed into His image we more and more partake of His perspective of eternity "in time".

"The phenomenon of Biblical prophecy rises out of a profound philosophy of history that by means of the prophetic unction interprets its past, illumines its course, and predicts its ultimate goal."

"Whether for salvation or judgment, the future is already "at hand."

"In prophetic perspective, the future is shaping the present rather than the reverse. This is why the powers of the eschatological future in both judgment and salvation are ever penetrating the contemporary circumstance as men are brought into encounter with God’s future through the word of prophecy. Whether for salvation or judgment, the future is ever "at hand.”

"The imminence of the prophetic future initiates a crisis of decision, not on the basis of chronological proximity, although, because of the nature of existential proximity to eternity, such expectancy would not be inaccurate. Rather, there is a constant proximity that all persons have to the end that justifies the concept of an "existential imminence” in the sense of the moral and spiritual claims contained in the inexorable approach of God’s future. Hence, unfaithfulness will draw near the judgment of the great day as will righteousness its salvation."

"Note: An ever present existential proximity to the end is to be distinguished from an eventual chronological imminence that becomes true only in the presence of definitely foretold signs as seen in Jesus’ Olivet prophecy (Mt 24) and Paul’s little apocalypse of 2Thes 2:1-8."

(From article "The Hebraic View of Prophecy" - Reggie Kelly)

Just a little 2 cents from me that might add a little to the discussion.

Blessings.

Wow! That is good,
Never thought about it that way before-

Thanks brother David for those 2 cents;)

When it comes to prophecy, can it not be said that God causes certain things to come about versus Him "seeing" the future?

In other words, God gave prophetic vision for things He planned to do?

1) Isaiah 41:21-24

21 "Present your case," the Lord says. "Bring forward your strong arguments," the King of Jacob says.

22 Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place; As for the former events, declare what they were, that we may consider them and know their outcome; or announce to us what is coming.

23 Declare the things that are going to come afterward, that we may know you are gods; Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.

24 Behold, you are of no account, and your work amounts to nothing; he who chooses you is an abomination."

2) Isaiah 42:8-9

8 "I am the Lord, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to graven images.

9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, now I declare new things; before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

3) Isaiah 43:9-13

9 All the nations have gathered together in order that the peoples may be assembled. Who then can declare this and proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, or let them hear and say, "It is true."

10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.

11 "I, even I am the Lord; and there is no Savior besides Me,

12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, and there was no strange god among you; so you are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And I am God."

13 "Even from eternity I am He; and there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"

4) Isaiah 44:6-8

6 "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.

7 'And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; yes, let him recount it to me in order, from the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming and the events that are going to take place.

8 'Do not tremble and be afraid; have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses, is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock?" I know of none.'"

5) Isaiah 44:24-45:5

Ch 44
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone,

25 Causing the omens of boasters to fail, making fools out of diviners, causing wise men to draw back, and turning their knowledge into foolishness,

26 Confirming the word of His servant (the prophetic word spoken beforehand), and performing the purpose of His messengers. It is I who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins again. (Prophecy before it happens.)

27 "It is I who says to the depths of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry.

28 "It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire. And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built.' and of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.' "

Ch 45

1 Thus says the Lord to Cyrus His anointed, whom I have taken by the right hand, to subdue nations before him, and to loose the loins of kings; to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut;

2 "I will go before you and make the rough places smooth; I will shatter doors of bronze, and cut through their iron bars.

3 And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden wealth of secret places, in order that you may know that it is I, the Lord, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.

4 "For the sake of Jacob My servant, and Israel My chosen one, I have called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor though you have not known Me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you though you have not known Me.
Note: Who but God could have declared beforehand that Cyrus would be the one who issued a decree that would allow the Jews to return from Babylon to their land and rebuild Jerusalem and the temple? We see that the Lord openly and plainly declared it through prophecy 150 years before it happened. (See above Isaiah 44:28-45:1, Ezra 5:13, 17, 6:3).

More regarding Cyrus below:

7) Isaiah 45:11-13

11 Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker. Ask me about the things to come concerning My sons, and you shall commit to Me the works of My hands.

12 "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands, and I ordained all their host.

13 "I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make all his ways smooth; he (Cyrus) will build My city and will let My exiles go free, without any payment or reward," says the Lord of hosts.

8) Isaiah 46:8-11
8 "Remember this and be
assured; recall it to mind, you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, My purpose will be established, and I will accompany all My good pleasure;

11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken and I will bring it to pass, I have planned it, surely I will do it."

9) Isaiah 47:1-7

1 "Hear this O house of Jacob, who are named Israel and who came forth from the loins of Judah, who swear by the name of the Lord and invoke the God of Israel, but not in truth nor in righteousness.

2 "For they call themselves after the holy city, and lean on the God of Israel; the Lord of hosts is His name.

3 " I declared them to you long ago and they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted and they came to pass.

4 "Because I know you are obstinate, and your neck is as iron sinew, and your forehead bronze,

5 Therefore I declared them to you long ago, before they took place I declared them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol has done them, and mt graven image and my molten image have commanded them.'

6 "You have heard; look at all this. And you, will you not declare it? I proclaim to you new things from this time, even hidden things which you have not known.

7 "They are created now (called into being by the prophetic word) and not long ago; and before today you have not heard them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'

Great day I hope I haven't over did this by these references. I just happen to have compiled them and have them on hand. It's not my thread or subject but maybe it helps. It's a very fascinating subject. If I understand your question correctly TMK, my reply would be that, in my opinion, God does indeed "see the future" and can accurately prophesy regarding it because He is well able to bring it about just as He has planned and spoken. So I would say with the article, the future God sees and has prophesied about is controlling the present and not vice versa.

Apologies again if I've posted too much.

Hi David-

I appreciate your input.

There is a problem with simply stating that God "sees the future" which is why He is able to prophecy and do things to bring it about. The problem is magnified if the future is "settled."

"Seeing the future" is a different concept than having the power and knowledge to CAUSE the future.

Perfect prescience would seem to be a miserable condition, for any intelligent being. An individual with perfect prescience would be subject to the tedium of merely existing; perfect and total foreknowledge of every event, every movement, every heartbeat of every creature in existence would indeed be miserable.

I know I am probably not making myself clear, because I am not 100% sure what I am trying to say. But if the future is "settled" now, and exists now, then God is in essence watching a movie in which he knows every scintilla of dialogue and every bit of action.

This problem disappears if the future does not exist now.

JFW: Go ahead brother.

TMK: I think we are seeing it the same way. He sees the consequences of every choice we make. However, He still leaves the choice (turn right or left) up to us. I believe God knows what will happen if I make choice A or choice B for however many infinite iterations of future choices that one choice leads to, if you get my drift. He is all knowing. He sees the future of every choice I may make, yet He leaves that choice up to me. That is why the rat in the maze makes sense to me. It demonstrates God's omniscience, but allows for my own free will, which is what I believe is happening.

I agree Travis- I think.

Knowing all possible consequences is subtly different than knowing the future outright. It is a thin line, but one that I can live with.

This is one of my favorite topics. Years ago I started thinking on it a lot. Not to try and figure out God but just thinking.

And, it occurred to me (incorrectly in most of my thinking it out, I'm sure!) that each and every "something" that is, regardless of how small it is, is known by God. He knows it, He knows where it is, He knows everything about, and He knows everything about what it will ever do and be. Every change of form. Every movement. Every ---- everything.

Think of each of these "somethings" where is, as is, and you can imagine on some level the scope of God's knowledge. By the time you have that thought, every one of those somethings changed somehow.

Think of each potential change in a something as its own strand flowing off that something. Now, think of all the somethings and all of the potential changes of each something as continuously moving strands. Strands joining. Strands falling away into nothingness. To our mind, it appears as chaos. To our Creator, it is a composition of immense pleasure to Himself, an opus of praise unto Himself.

As the strands in our mind's image flow, as changes occur to every something in real time, there are other strands of other possibilities that did not occur. Because they did not occur, they are not real. They would disappear from this imagined, perpetual dance of strands.

The actual somethings and their possibilities are real in different ways to one another. But as time as we know it passes, and the possibilities become actualities in the physical sense, all other possibilities for that something that existed prior to that point in real time disappear from the dance of things.

How can God not know each and every bit of these somethings and each and every possibility and also each and every eventual reality in time of each?

I've always heard time began when God created the earth, before that time as we know it did not exist.

BillPro, I personally think that has to be so. I am quite certain there is no time without physicality. Unless before the creations of the heavens and the earth there was another physical existence of some sort some place, I don't see how it could be any other way.

The whole concept of time having a beginning is exceedingly difficult, at least for me. But that seems to be the consensus.

But here is another mind-blower- if God existed in the infinite past, how did it ever get to the point where He created the universe? There would always be an infinite amount of time to cover first.

That paradox is resolved, I guess, if time did not begin UNTIL He created everything.

But what God was doing prior to creation is beyond me. I will have to ask Him some day.

TMK....But here is another mind-blower- if God existed in the infinite past, how did it ever get to the point where He created the universe? There would always be an infinite amount of time to cover first.

If there is sequence of events, there is time. If there is eternity, there is time.

Time goes with existence, if there is existence of anything or anybody then there is time, whether we are conscious or oriented with it or not, awareness does not validate time.

The future does not exist now but it is fully knowable to God, He is the Lord of every event, everything goes with His counsel.

The free will of man and laws of nature do not diminish God's sovereignty, they are serving His purposes.

passerby...If there is sequence of events, there is time. If there is eternity, there is time.

Eternity is infinite, immeasurable time, it takes its meaning from the concept of time. It is a description or an attribute of time.

Nowhere in the Bible do we find any suggestion of millions or billions of years. Belief in millions of years is really part of secular man’s religion, which attempts to explain life without God, instead of believing the true account of origins in Genesis that begins "In the beginning . . . .”

Our ability to trust God’s promise of salvation relies upon our ability to trust everything He says about history, from beginning to end. If we can’t trust His claims about the past, how can we trust His promises about the future?

Thankfully, we serve a God we can trust in every detail. Though He is beyond space and time, He humbled Himself to become a man and die on the Cross for our sins. He also has given us a record of this history in His Word so that we can know it’s really true. -Ken Ham

Having some small training in Physics, I know that time is not absolute. Time dilation occurs at speeds approaching the speed of light. If time is not constant, it must be a created thing and not something that places a limitation on God. He is immutable. Time is not. So He is the creator of, and thus outside of time. We are bound by time and cannot imagine what an existence outside of time would be like. Our entire human existence is defined by time. We must conceive of a beginning and an end. Yet these are time bound concepts.

Brother Travis,
Again I am tracking with you on this...
Remember the Seal song from the nineties, "time is the space between me and you"? ;)
Time is a means of measurement and again as far as I understand it doesn't not actually or independently exist but rather is an applied construct,... hence the time dilation Travis mentions.
This is why Christ was crucified at the foundation of the world but didn't manifest "in time" for thousands of years tho in eternity it had actually already taken place.
Time (for me) is like mathematics in that neither exist outside the human mind but were "created" (used loosely) by it in order to explain, interact and understand or track the natural progression of creation itself.
Have some engineer friends that love to debate this point with me but if mathematics (like time) existed outside of the human condition then other creatures would show evidence of apprehending it,...

I agree with passerby that if there is a sequence of events there must be some duration (time) between the events.

This is why I struggle with the idea of God existing outside time. If God does one thing, then another (I.e. Sequence) then there would seem to be time in between the sequence.

Unless living in eternity means everything happens simultaneously, which is way beyond my comprehension.

@ TMK

My concept of time will kick me out of theological schools. Luckily, I am not living in the dark ages.

The static description of omniscience seems inviolable.

TMK...This is why I struggle with the idea of God existing outside time.

Time is merely a measurement of two physically discrete things in relation to each other. If we did not have discrete measurements, even we wouldn't conceive of time. But, God so designed the universe that those measurements are unavoidable. The mere fact that the Sun moves at points across a visible sky repeatedly forces us into the conception of time. We live by marking it. We then study it, calculate it, break it down into smaller discrete portions of movement the Sun in relation to Earth and arrive with all sorts of other measurements (days, hours, seconds, minutes, milliseconds, etc.).

We see God through this lens of creation. Paul said that God is known by the things that are made. Therefore, we understand Him as being intimately related to time. But, the Word of God does not limit Him in that way.

Understanding God through the creation forces us to consider Him in relation to time. Yet, when God acts in such a way that His action does not depend on the physical universe for that act to occur, the need for time disappears. Sequence is no longer time related.

Is there duration of states in these non-physical sequences? Let's say yes since we can't prove no and since it seems intuitively true. To say that there is time in this duration only admits of our need to figure out a way to measure the duration. It may be immeasurable. Well, it IS immeasurable, right? None of us know anyone who can measure the duration, nor by what standard, means, etc. Time, then, is a gap filler in our knowledge about the sequence and not inherent in the sequence itself.

Well said Tim.

This is where my wife would say "I don't need to know such things." She is probably right!

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

If in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, this means there was nothing before God created the heavens, right? Time could not have possibly existed if there was no heavens, unless you believe time exists in the spirit world, because God is spirit.

Brother Tim,
Yes! That is a good explanation:)

Brother Todd,
I really enjoy your questions and your sense of humor, they are both much appreciated and serve to break the sometimes monotonous discussions-

dolfan...But, God so designed the universe that those measurements are unavoidable. The mere fact that the Sun moves at points across a visible sky repeatedly forces us into the conception of time. We live by marking it.

A perpective of eternity:

http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/opentheism/Eternity_Timelessness_or_Endless_Time_Jesse_Morrell.pdf

I think that link about covers it.

Obviously, I disagree with the brother's conclusions.

The biblical Greek for eternity encompasses both everlasting, (think of a point with a never ending line extending from it) and also eternal in both directions (think of a line in both directions with no end point, infinite).

Creation had a beginning. If in some form it continues forever it is everlasting, but not eternal in the sense of existing before it began. (Obviously.)

Now, some say time is endless in both directions. If so, then it is co-eternal with God. There would never be a time when matter/physicality wasn't. If this is true, there was no creation, and everything just is. That presents a serious problem for our whole faith and it is a favorite argument of atheist physicists. It also flies in the face of Scripture. Time is not endless in both directions; it had a starting point.

If time has no starting point, it is uncaused. Think about that. Think of the implications. Again, atheist theoretical physicists argue this.

If time is not eternal (in other words, matter/physicality commenced to exist), it must be caused. The cause must be independent of time itself. God is the cause. He is independent of time.

He chose, however, to enter time in the person of His begotten Son. Jesus was a man and is still yet the God-Man. He ascended to the Father as a resurrected, glorified Man. He will return to Earth as the God-Man and we will be changed as men and women to be a, pardon me, like-God-Man. That is what John said. God entered time. He cloaked Himself in it. As I read of the new heavens and new earth, I believe He never leaves time. This is astounding, chilling even, to me. Re read Philippians 2 while considering this.

Yet, the Father is not the Son. He is not a man. The paradox is inestimable. We cannot comprehend Him still.

Purely spiritual activity does not require time. Physical activity does. God the Father is a Spirit. God the Son is also Man. It is a mystery, guys.

I love Him.

I know He knows the end from the beginning and that His Word is settle in Heaven and that not one jot or tittle can fail....etc.... but what do you guys think about them who were warned in dreams and changed course to avoid danger etc... in the NT was that future set in stone? I can not see God as having caused so much...it is a real real real tough question you guys are tackling here, I think I'll go get an aspirin now for my headache@*:(

Fletcher: I think what is meant by the scripture you reference (slain from the foundation of the earth) might be referring to the knowledge that, from the very beginning, the sacrifice of Christ was an event that was destined to happen. A bit hard to comprehend perhaps, but before God created man, He knew His Son would be slain to redeem His creation. Our understanding of Mathematics and Physics is evidence of the order of a very wise creator's design.

MrBillPro: I had to laugh. I know what you are saying, and I do take it in all seriousness. However it suddenly crossed my mind that it sounds a bit like another time zone. I live in Central Standard Time and God lives in Central Spiritual Time. :-)

Brother Travis,
I had not considered that, have just read it straight forward as an event that was beyond temporal boundaries. The word from (apo) is an interesting one and I'd never studied it out before but now I will:)
Thank you for this-

I was also reading over some articles dealing with time from a quantum perspective and the experiments were interesting and the findings were def in line with my understanding tho mine is surely more primitive.
Here's a link if you care to read:

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/07/20/quantum-experiment-shows-how-time-doesnt-exist-as-we-think-it-does-mind-altering/

You know if we really let it sink in, I mean really sink in, think about it, it's deeper. "In the beginning God created the Heavens and The Earth". In other words there must have only been a spiritual world before God created the heavens, right? unless there was a place God was at that was called something different. Now did God set around in the Heavens for a while before he decided to create the earth? because the word just says he created the heavens and the earth, it does not say simultaneously or the earth shortly after the heavens. So it's possible God could have set in the heavens for trillions of years before deciding to create his masterpiece that he loves so much called earth. Now I could be wrong, if so please correct me. I think this is a really good discussion, I hope it stays civil. :-)

Bill that is amazing that God, eternal, in His own desire to please Himself from the abundance of His eternal nature, created all this and us in it. I don't think of Him as lonely since He needs nothing and is fully content in Himself, but that He would create and love something other than Himself and then subject Himself to that creation in the Son, enduring its rebellion and making Himself weak, meek, lowly and to die the way that creation dies.......THAT is what blows me away.

And I am overwhelmed by our arrogance in the face of it. And our false self serving religiosity. I am ashamed for myself and the people in my community.

bill wrote:
"So it's possible God could have set in the heavens for trillions of years before deciding to create his masterpiece that he loves so much called earth."

That's possible, but it would be inconsistent with your position that time didn't exist before creation (which is also possible). In other words, if there was no time prior to creation, you couldn't use trillions of years as a measurement.

But that is exactly why I have a very hard time understanding the idea that time was created. If there was no time prior to creation, what was God doing? If he only did two things, there would be some span of time between the two things, right?

But the problem I mentioned before with the idea of God living in endless eternity into the past is that it would never have gotten to the point where he created everything because there would always be more time to cover. I know I am not making sense but I can't help it- its too complicated!

Todd, I used trillions of years just to make a point, in the human sense. No I still don't believe that time existed in the spiritual world. Now "IF" there was a place God was at, before he created the earth, lets use the heavens since there is no mention of any other place he wanted us to know about, before he created the heavens, was there time? I just don't know.

Edit: Todd, I will say I personally don't believe God needed time to act, he's God, he can do quite well without being on a schedule. :-)

dolfan.....Bill that is amazing that God, eternal, in His own desire to please Himself from the abundance of His eternal nature, created all this and us in it.

Mr. Bill: I believe there is commentary on that in Exodus 20:11. In six days God created the heaven and the earth and all that is in them. So that should include the initial creation of the heavens and the earth in that six day period.

Todd: It is difficult for us to grasp. We were born in time and our entire existence is bound and defined by time. We cannot fathom any existence outside of the confines of time. But, if time is a created thing, then there must be something about the spiritual realm that we don't understand. I guess that is about as good as I can understand it myself. Guess I will find out one of the "days" huh?

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends, With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2nd Peter 3:8

These kind of debates often draw us into our own way of thinking, I like what Martin Luther once said:

I have often said that whoever would study Holy Scripture should be sure to see to it that he stays with the simple words as long as he can, and by no means departs from them unless an article of faith compels him to understand them differently. For of this we must be certain, no clearer speech has been heard on Earth than what God has spoken.-Martin Luther

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)” 2 Corinthians 6:2, KJV.

The "future" is affected by "now".

(ie. "NOW is the accepted time...")

The Lord makes it easy for us ... He clearly states that the ONLY "time" he accepts is "NOW" (ie.this second). Can you believe and walk with Him this "second"... that is the ONLY "time" which is accepted by Him.

What if eternity is like spokes on a wheel, extending in all directions and all that we call 'time' including all recorded pre/history and creation is but a speck, an itty bitty speck, on said wheel?

I think we'll be beyond astonished when we enter eternity and realize how precious little we knew on earth.

Precious little....

TMK:

But that is exactly why I have a very hard time understanding the idea that time was created. If there was no time prior to creation, what was God doing? If he only did two things, there would be some span of time between the two things, right?

Well, scientists have sorted that out. Suppose you measure time using light photons - the speed of which is capped, and nothing in this universe can travel faster than light. It leads to all kinds of paradoxes - and the conclusion is that the measurement of time is relative. The time which transpires on my clock might be different to yours, though these discrepancies are small enough to be ignored in a lot of ordinary scenarios. This is the theory of "special relativity".

2 Peter 3:8 could well be a scientific statement: "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

In Einstein's "general relativity" framework, space and time are not independent but interwoven together. Hence we speak of a "space-time fabric", which is distorted by the placement of objects. The more massive the object, the greater the distortion - we experience this distortion in the form of "gravity". Gravity affects light and thus our measurement of time as well. If you are sitting for an exam, suggest to the examination board to place the clock on the floor because that would slow down the clock ;) (though by negligible amounts)

So if we believe that this world was created - if space was created, does that mean time was created as well? God unfurling the space-time fabric at the point of creation (cross-reference: Revelation 6:14)...

I don't know if there's a scientific consensus to that (though I reckon many secular proponents of the Big Bang Theory would subscribe to that view). My personal belief is that God is above the spacetime dimension we inhabit, He is certainly not confined to live within the framework He created.

BTW you might want to watch "Interstellar" (2014) - the sci-fi movie touches on some of these themes (unfortunately punctuated by some ungodly language).

Time is co-occurrent of existence. It not only a physical reality but also a metaphysical reality. It is not created and it cannot be destroyed. Time is always there whether in a physical or a metaphysical dimension.

"He is not eternity and infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures forever, and is everywhere present; and, by existing always and everywhere, he constitutes duration and space. Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is everywhere, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and nowhere" (Isaac Newton).

Yuehan-

I did recently watch Interstellar. Definitely a mind bender.