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Letter from Stephen Sizer to Jacob Prasch

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I thought this was a good letter. Don't know if Jacob responded.

An Open Letter to Jacob Prasch

Dear Jacob,

I have read with sadness your comments about me on your website. In obedience to
our Lord’s instructions in Matthew 18, I am willing to meet with you privately or with a mediator and seek reconciliation as brothers in Christ.

I realise you are disappointed at not being able to debate me on television. I was willing to do so until I read what you had written about me, especially the imprecatory associations with Menelaus. That was also the legal advice I received.

Through an intermediary I merely requested a postponement of the debate. Without knowing my reasons, rather prematurely you wrote, "I have nothing to say to such an utterly contemptible servant of hell, and I am not interested in hearing anything from him. He is of his father the devil.”

In response to my attempt to make contact with you, you wrote, "It is too late for that. That twisted snake should not have agreed to the television debate to begin with if he was going to run scared or back down.”

I suggest this is not especially edifying language and indeed may undermine the credibility of your ministry. I have recently debated both Geoffrey Smith of Christian Friends of Israel and David Pawson both on Premier Radio. Both conversations were constructive and honouring to the Lord.

I readily concede that you will not be happy with my critique of your interpretation of the relationship of Israel and the Church. However, on this occasion, the only one I can think of, I have not slandered you, questioned your motives or denigrated you personally.

Initially you were critical of me for being an Anglican. I am guilty as charged. In my defence I am part of the Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans committed to reforming the church on biblical grounds.

More recently you have criticised me for visiting Iran and for sharing a platform with an IRA member. You are wrong to assume that in doing so I am in agreement with the policies or actions of the Iranian government or the IRA. On the contrary I have made my own views plain through my writings, website and lectures, on the illegitimacy of the use of violence as a means of resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Jesus himself was accused of being "a friend of tax collectors and "sinners.” ’ (Luke 7:34). As one myself, I am grateful to know him as my friend, and desire to share that friendship with those who at present are outside his family, even at the expense of being maligned or misunderstood by others.

As Paul says in Romans 10, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?” (Romans 10:13-15)

I believe I have been ‘sent’ as I know you do too. We have clearly been sent to different people. We stand or fall before our Sovereign Lord to whom we are accountable not each other.

Like you, I care passionately for the Jewish people and pray for a secure Israel, as well as the fulfilment of the legitimate aspirations of Palestinians to an independent, sovereign and democratic state. I believe justice for Palestinians will bring peace for Israel, reconciliation with their neighbours and the marginalisation of extremists.

So Jacob, thank you for reading thus far. I repeat, I am willing to meet privately or with a mediator as our Lord instructed. While I may disagree with you theologically in the future, I will continue to pray for you and ask God’s blessing on your ministry.

Yours in Yeshua,
Stephen

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"Nice" letter from the known anti-semitic, Jew hating and despising "Rev" Stephen Sizer

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I am just learning about Stephen Sizer. Can you post some references for your point of view. Not saying it's not valid, but if you could help me out that would be great. In his letter he states the following:

"Like you, I care passionately for the Jewish people and pray for a secure Israel, as well as the fulfilment of the legitimate aspirations of Palestinians to an independent, sovereign and democratic state. I believe justice for Palestinians will bring peace for Israel, reconciliation with their neighbours and the marginalisation of extremists."

I would like to know if his views are viewed as anti-semitic because he does not believe in the nation state of Israel having prophectic significance or because he actually is quoted as saying something harmful about jewish people? He said he does "pray for a secure Israel" and in another video, I heard him say that he does not begrudge Israel having a homeland or country of their own. So, if you could help me out and point me to some references that point to true anti-semitism, I would be grateful.

By the way, you don't think Christians are anti-semitic if they don't believe a nation state of Israel is not a valid biblical prophecy, do you?

I noticed that Stephen Sizer was at a Messianic Jewish Conference in Johannesburg, South Africa and MessianicGoodNews folks were there, too. In fact, I think that is where they are based.

Kevin Daly, who has written many articles for MessianicGoodNews wrote of Jacob's quote below. First Jacob's quote:

Jacob came for a bride from his own people. He desired Rachel, but he did not get Rachel at first, but Leah. After he learned to love Leah as much as he did Rachel, he got Rachel as well. In the beginning Leah had all the babies, her womb was most fruitful. But then Rachel conceives. Israel shall be a fruitful vine. Jesus came for Israel. He wanted to marry Israel, but He did not get Israel. He ends up with the bride He did not desire at first, the Gentile church. After He learns to love the Gentile church, then He gets Israel. In the beginning, the church has all the babies. But in the end, Israel becomes a fruitful vine." (Jacob Prasch)

John Wilkinson, Founder and Director of the Mildmay Mission, also wrote:

" ... the Jewish nation as such is shunted to a siding until the times of the Gentiles run out, to allow the express train to pass, stopping here and there to pick up the Church, and then the Jewish nation will take her place on the main line of the Divine Plan, stop at all stations and take on the world.” (Israel my Glory, 1893, p.134).

Kevin Daly's response: "In other words what Jesus failed to do by pouring out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the Jews will succeed in doing much better once the church is taken out of the way." Gilbert Bilezikian rightly characterises this theology as turning the Church into the 'concubine of Christ'.

Alan Morrison was also there and he has two articles you might find interesting on the Restoration of All Things.

Phase 1: Times of Refreshing ”“ Refining the saints
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-restoration-of-all-things-part-1/

Phase 2: "Cleansing the world ”“ Completion of the Church”
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-restoration-of-all-things-part-2/

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http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/31707

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2015/02/church_of_england_lowers_the_b.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11399986/Vicar-who-blamed-Israel-for-911-attacks-is-banned-from-writing-about-the-Middle-East.html

http://roshpinaproject.com/tag/stephen-sizer/

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Here is the quote by Jacob Prasch, in which he uses the story of Rachel and Leah from Genesis to teach that Jesus did not desire the Church as his bride.

"Jacob came for a bride from his own people. He desired Rachel, but he did not get Rachel at first, but Leah. After he learned to love Leah as much as he did Rachel, he got Rachel as well. In the beginning Leah had all the babies, her womb was most fruitful. But then Rachel conceives. Israel shall be a fruitful vine. Jesus came for Israel. He wanted to marry Israel, but He did not get Israel. He ends up with the bride He did not desire at first, the Gentile church. After He learns to love the Gentile church, then He gets Israel. In the beginning, the church has all the babies. But in the end, Israel becomes a fruitful vine." (Jacob Prasch)

And John Wilkinson, Founder and Director of the Mildmay Mission

" ... the Jewish nation as such is shunted to a siding until the times of the Gentiles run out, to allow the express train to pass, stopping here and there to pick up the Church, and then the Jewish nation will take her place on the main line of the Divine Plan, stop at all stations and take on the world.” (Israel my Glory, 1893, p.134).

Kevin Daly replies, "In other words what Jesus failed to do by pouring out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the Jews will succeed in doing much better once the church is taken out of the way." Gilbert Bilezikian rightly characterises this theology as turning the Church into the 'concubine of Christ'.

David Brickner, revives J.N. Darby’s eccentric dispensational scheme, suggesting the last two thousand years history of the Church is merely ‘a parenthesis’ to God’s future plans for the Jews, who remain his ‘chosen people’. (see Future Hope, p. 18, 130; J. N. Darby, 'The Character of Office in The Present Dispensation' Collected Writings., Eccl. I, Vol. I, p. 94).

Why was Jesus willing to die? The apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 2 that Jesus died to reconcile both Jews and Gentiles to God the Father.

"His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit." (Ephesians 2:15-18)

The Lord Jesus has broken down the barrier between Jews and Gentiles who recognise him as their Lord and Saviour. It is tragic when some of his followers, it seems want to focus on that barrier or even rebuild it.

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Here is more about the guy you quoted and approved of

Bt Olivier Jack Melnick

Reverend Stephen Sizer, vicar of the Anglican Parish of Christ Church in England is notorious for his disdain for Israel and the Jewish people. He has been a longtime supporter of the "Palestinian” agenda, has visited Iran on occasions and recently even claimed that Christian Zionists are the same as members of the Islamic State and Al Qaeda.

Sizer wasn’t always such a virulent anti-Zionist. He actually started as a Christian Zionist and dispensationalist. It was in 1990 that during a visit to Israel and some meetings with Palestinian Christians, he engaged on a road that would eventually lead him to thoroughly change his views on Israel. This radical change prompted him to publish his doctoral thesis in his 2004 book: Christian Zionism: Roadmap to Armageddon ? [1] [2].

Recently, Sizer reached a new low in his anti-Zionist rhetoric when he posted a link to an article claiming that September 11, 2001 was part of a Jewish conspiracy.[3] His conspiracy theory belongs with New Mexico’s area 51 and the Loch Ness monster, and I would gladly put it in its place in the pantheon of lies, except that it this case, it hurts people.

There are three groups of people hurt by such a statement, outside of Sizer’s reputation, of course, but that one was already pretty tarnished.

First, it hurts Christians in general because Rev. Sizer is considered to be an Evangelical and that Christianity already has a tremendous amount of baggage when it comes to Judeo/Christian relations. Many Jewish people consider Christians to be anti-Semitic by default and Stephen Sizer’s recent endorsement certainly would validate their position. Of course, it remains to be seen if a person having such a hatred of the Jewish people and such a distorted understanding of Israel can be called a believer. I am not saying that Rev. Sizer isn’t a Christian but a reading of Psalm 83 might convince some that he also hates God (Psalm 83:1-5). Fortunately, not all followers of Yeshua the Messiah of Israel will agree with Sizer, yet his influence is still growing in a postmodern world where truth and logic are no longer required.

Incidentally, in 2011, Sizer had been accused of anti-Semitism by the Board of Deputies of British Jews, was investigated, but he was exonerated. In a letter published on his blog, he said: "I care passionately about the safety of the Jewish people and the right of Israel to exist within internationally agreed borders. I have always opposed racism, anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial as well as Islamophobia and the denial of the Palestinian right to self-determination and will continue to do so.” [4]

If indeed Rev. Sizer opposes anti-Semitism, maybe it would be wise for him to define what he means by that term, because accusing the Jewish people of conspiring together in the events of 9/11 is libelous, irrational and unfounded. If what he means by anti-Semitism fits one of the many definitions similar to mine[5], then he is delusional at best.

But Sizer’s view and its defense also hurt Christ Church of England in particular. The lack of a firm biblical position by Christ Church against Sizer’s diatribes would speak tons regarding their own views on Israel and the Jews. As it turns out, they decided to investigate him again [6]. The outcome will determine if that anti-Semitic statement was serious enough to lead to disciplinary action.

Finally, such a statement also hurts the Jewish people, as it fuels the fire of anti-Semitism. We know from the state of the world in general and the events of the last few weeks in France in particular, that anti-Semitism needs no fuel to advance on its destructive path.

Many Christians or even pseudo-Christians will see a validation in Sizer’s position. They will easily justify their own anti-Semitism by seeing Sizer as a Christian role model who knows more than them, thus, must be in the right. This is a problem that we could trace back to the second century Church Fathers.

Stephen Sizer poses a great danger to both Christians and Jews. One would certainly hope that a statement claiming that the Jews were behind 9/11 would be immediately dismissed as an irrational hoax, but then again the early 19th century pamphlet: The Protocol of the Learned Elders of Zion, which was a hoax, is still being published and circulated in 2015 [7].

Prompted by his diocese, Sizer retracted his support of that statement about Israel’s involvement in the terrorist attack of 9/11 within a few days and posted an apology on his blog: "I very much regret and apologise for the distress caused by the reposting on Facebook of a link to an article about 9/11 from Wikispooks. It was particularly insensitive in that last week coincided with Holocaust Memorial Day. I removed the link as soon as I received adverse feedback, and realised that offence had been caused. I have never believed Israel or any other country was complicit in the terrorist atrocity of 9/11, and my sharing of this material was ill-considered and misguided. At the request of the Diocese, I will be suspending my use of all social media and blogs with immediate effect and until further notice.”[8]

At the moment, it is unclear if the apology was a result of his diocese investigation, but what remains without a doubt, is that even with that apology, Sizer remains an ardent anti-Israel activist at best, and an anti-Semite at worst. As a matter of fact, in the 2004 version of his book "Christian Zionism”, he makes a very similar statement on page 251, where he actually accuses Israel of "complicity in the 9/11 tragedy”.[9]

Sizer might have published an apology but he appears less as having the contrite heart of a Christian in the wrong and more as a Christian figure who got caught with his hand in the anti-Jewish "cookie jar”.

The chocking weed of anti-Semitism is a diehard plant that just got watered a bit more by Stephen Sizer.

Christians should know better.

Christian Zionists will know better!

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I didn't say I approve of him. It is not for me to approve of men. I only posted two articles that were only theological (not political) in nature that I agreed with.

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Whew! That is some pretty bad stuff, Enue.

But, let's not assume "guilt by association" of everyone that believes all the promises to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ. I can only speak for myself as I am not anti-semitic or anti-palestinian. I am not anti-anything and won't let others label me. I am pro-Christ.

Now the LORD had said UNTO ABRAM, Get THEE out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew THEE: And I will make of THEE a great nation, and I will bless THEE, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless THEE, and curse him that curseth THEE: and in THEE shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 12:1-3)

And all the families of the earth are blessed in Abraham through Christ.
(In these 3 verses, God is talking only to Abraham, "thee" is singular.)

Who is Abraham's seed?
Now to Abraham and his seed WERE THE PROMISES MADE. HE SAITH NOT, AND TO SEEDS, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED WHICH IS CHRIST. (Gal 3:16)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE. (Gal 3:29)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. (Gal 3:28)


These all died in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were STRANGERS AND PILGRIMS ON THE EARTH. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. (Heb 11:13-14)

Those who died in faith confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on earth implying they sought a country, it just wasn't on earth.

BUT NOW THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Heb 11:16)

Sometimes I wonder if the UN and Britain did a grave disservice to the Jewish people and should have left well enough alone and let the Jewish people remain as "strangers and pilgrims" in this world. I wonder if dispersed amongst all the countries as they were, if many more of them would have found the Lord. We may have really hurt them thinking we were helping them. Of course, I don't know what the UN's motive was, but it is rarely a good one.

Orthodox Jews are against Zionism, which I find very interesting. My question, is why didn't the UN and Britain respect the wishes of the religious Jews and instead they went ahead and set up a secular nation? How can Orthodox Jews be anti-semitic? You would think they know better than the godless UN or godless Britain. Do you think Religious Jews in Israel are traitorous? How could religious Jews be traitorous to a secular nation?

Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law. Is a sovereign Jewish State contrary to Christian law? We don't have Christian Law, we just have Christ. So, why did Britain butt in against the desires of the religious Jews living in Palestine prior to 1948? These are earnest questions, I don't know why.

From this page: (very, very interesting).
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

All the great rabbis who in accordance with Jewish Law opposed Zionism at its inception did not do so merely due to consideration of the secular lifestyles of the then Zionist leaders or even for their opposition to Torah heritage and rejection of its values and practices, but due to the fact that the entire concept of a Jewish state is in direct conflict with a number of Judaism's fundamentals.

Condemnation of and segregation from anything connected to or affiliated with the so-called modern day "State of Israel" is based on the Talmud, the key fundamental doctrine of the Oral Tradition handed down by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. The Talmud in Tractate Kesubos (p. 111a), teaches that Jews shall not use human force to bring about the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the universally accepted Moshiach (Messiah from the House of David). Furthermore it states that we are forbidden to rebel against the nations and that we should remain loyal citizens and we shall not attempt to leave the exile which G-d sent us into, ahead of time.

Jews are not allowed to dominate, kill, harm or demean another people and are not allowed to have anything to do with the Zionist enterprise, their political meddling and their wars.

Neturei Karta forbid any participation with the so-called "State of Israel" or any of its subsidiaries. Neturei Karta followers do not participate in "Israeli" elections nor do they accept any aid from "Bituach Le'Umi" (Social Security), and the educational institutions of the Neturei Karta reject any form of financial support from the so-called "Va'ad HaYeshivos" (equiv. to Department of Education).

The Zionist state employs a set of chief rabbis and uses religious parties to ornament their state with a clerical image. They study the Torah with commentaries altered to clothe the words with nationalistic nuances. Our rabbis have countless times proclaimed that it matters little which individuals or parties govern in the Zionist state because the very establishment and existence of the state itself is to be condemned and to be deplored.

The true Jews remain faithful to Jewish belief and are not contaminated with Zionism.

The true Jews are against dispossessing the Arabs of their land and homes. According to the Torah, the land should be returned to them.

Neturei Karta deplore the systematic uprooting of ancient Jewish communities by the Zionists, the shedding of Jewish and non-Jewish blood for the sake of Zionist sovereignty and the Neturei Karta favor a peaceful transition from the present Zionist rule to a non-Zionist entity.

According to Judaic Law the Torah has the last word. There is no such thing as a majority of Jews who happen to be Jewish by birth who can alter Torah Law in any way. In fact even the greatest rabbi or as Maimonides writes, "even the greatest prophet" [referring actually to an authentic prophet], has no right to distort or amend even one letter of the Torah.

Rabbi Blau stated shortly before his death that the acceptance by the United Nations of the Zionist state as a member state constituted a grave injustice to the Jewish people. Neturei Karta hope that this great error will be corrected at the earliest opportunity. The Neturei Karta regret that the Zionist state has usurped the holy name of Israel and that the Zionists so often pretend to speak in the name of the Jewish people and assume the right to act on our behalf. Only those rabbis who have not been affected or influenced by the poison of Zionism, can be considered the spiritual leaders of today's Jewry.

The world must know that the Zionists have illegitimately seized the name Israel and have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people!

http://www.nkusa.org/activities/demonstrations/independenceday.cfm

Some interesting signs in this demonstration:
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Demonstrations/20150810.cfm

One reads: "Support to Israel is not supporting Jews or Judaism"

State of Israel does not support World Jewry.

Judaism Rejects Zionism

Fascinating, I never saw this.

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Hey Rev.,

Do you call religious Jews who are against Zionism, anti-semites?

For instance, are these guys, anti-semites or just anti-zionism? Listen to his reasons.

https://youtu.be/ucd0Lc9qx5w

Listen carefully to this Jewish Rabbi.

He'd be a great street preacher!


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Your hatred of Jewish people is showing Mr Julius and you covering up with religion is sad.

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What is Israel or even Christians to think when Sizer has made appearances on Iranian television speaking against Israel? And he was called out for labelling Messianic Jews who support Jews returning to Israel as an abomination to God. He corrected himself and rescinded the statment when confronted but attitudes of one's heart have a way of coming to the surface. Sizer is not likely a personal monster if one were to be around him but all of this in my opinion highlights the latter day controversy that will swirl around the Jewish presence in Palestine and the issue of who is to control Jerusalem. The controversy of Zion is not going away.

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by Rev__Enue on 2015/10/30 11:24:28

Your hatred of Jewish people is showing Mr Julius and you covering up with religion is sad.

Greg, please don't close any of these threads. I am willing to continue to receive these accusations.

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Greg, do not take the bait. The Holy Spirit will show you his/her agenda

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Jesus said,

I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, yet thou art rich, and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of satan . Rev. 2:9

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars--I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. Rev. 3:9

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

34Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35"The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37"I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38"I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40"But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41"You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45"But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46"Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”John 8:31-47

Neither I nor Julius nor Jesus are Jew-haters.

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11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain,
From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath,
And from the islands of the sea.

12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations
And assemble the banished ones of Israel,
And will gather the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth. (Isaiah 11:11-12 - NASB)

The return from Babylon was one return out of the two returns prophesied above. Yet it didn't include a return from the four corners of the earth. So when was or when will the second return be when God recovers the remnant of His people from the four corners of the earth? If God will be behind it is He therefore a "Zionist?"

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"What is Israel or even Christians to think when Sizer has made appearances on Iranian television speaking against Israel? And he was called out for labelling Messianic Jews who support Jews returning to Israel as an abomination to God. He corrected himself and rescinded the statment when confronted but attitudes of one's heart have a way of coming to the surface. Sizer is not likely a personal monster if one were to be around him but all of this in my opinion highlights the latter day controversy that will swirl around the Jewish presence in Palestine and the issue of who is to control Jerusalem. The controversy of Zion is not going away."

Terrible words from Steven Sizer an anti-Jewish pseudo "Rev" if there ever was one.

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http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Group-says-Church-of-England-vicar-anti-Semitic

LONDON ”“ Britain’s Jewish community representative organization has taken the unprecedented step of lodging a formal complaint to the Church of England, the country’s officially established Christian church, accusing one of its clergyman of anti-Semitism.

The Board of Deputies of British Jews has accused Rev. Stephen Sizer, the vicar of Virginia Water Church in Surrey and an ardent anti-Israel campaigner, of making anti-Semitic statements and republishing anti-Semitic material.

The action comes at a time when the relationship between the Jewish community and the Church of England has taken a downward turn, following its decision in July to strengthen ties with an anti-Israel group.

According to the board’s vice-president, Jonathan Arkush, Sizer has made statements that the board and most of the Jewish community find utterly offensive, to the point of crossing the line into anti- Semitism.

The representative organization lodged the complaint under the Church of England’s disciplinary process, an act of parliament known as the Clergy Discipline Measure 2003.

Submitting the complaint on behalf of the board, Arkush said, "The evidence disclosed indicates that Rev. Sizer spends time trawling dark and extreme corners of the Internet.”

"Rev. Sizer republishes items to support the target of his polemical writing, while at the same time introducing his readers to the racist and anti-Semitic websites from where he draws his material,” he added.

The complaint cites numerous examples over an 11-month period showing a clear and consistent pattern of activity that "can no longer go unchallenged.”

In October 2011, the Church of England minister posted a link to his Facebook page from an anti-Semitic website called "The Ugly Truth: Zionism, Jewish extremism and a few other nasty items making our world uninhabitable today.”

Sizer removed the link three months later only after numerous complaints.

Bishop of Manchester Rt. Rev. Nigel McCulloch, who is also the chairman of the Council of Christians and Jews, said at the time that "the content and delay in removing the link from Mr. Sizer’s Facebook page was disgraceful and unbecoming for a clergyman of the Church of England to promote.”

In March, Sizer linked a picture of US bases surrounding Iran from the "Veterans Today” website, which publishes articles defending Hitler, and promotes Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke and the anti- Semitic musician Gilad Atzmon.

"Its home page quickly discloses articles displaying hatred of Jews and Israel. Rev.

Sizer could not have missed these when searching the site for material to post on his blog,” the board maintained.

In May, four months after removing the controversial link, Sizer acknowledged that the "Ugly Truth” contained offensive material and said that he had "no wish” to be associated with it.

"I have on many occasions condemned all forms of anti-Semitism and will continue so to do because it is abhorrent to me,” Sizer maintained.

However, only a month later, he again linked his blog to another anti-Semitic website. The homepage "Window into Palestine” displays a Nazi flag with a swastika superimposed on a Star of David and carries a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, describing it as an "important tome.”

The charge sheet questions the sincerity of Sizer’s condemnation of anti-Semitism.

"Any visitor to ‘Window into Palestine’ would see immediately that it is racist and anti-Semitic. Rev. Sizer posted a link to this website exactly one month after telling the Council of Christians and Jews that he condemned all forms of anti-Semitism.

Arkush said that Sizer displays an obsession with Israel and opposes its identity as a Jewish state.

"Rev. Sizer displays a deep hostility to Zionism, which he writes about as if it was a term of abuse. It is not difficult to come across his views, as he is an enthusiastic self-publicist who proclaims his preoccupation with Israel on his website, blog and Facebook and Flickr pages.”

He also said that Sizer has few qualms about the company he keeps.

"He has shared a platform with and quoted from Holocaust-deniers; goes on trips to Iran as the guest of the NEDA Institute, which contributes to global efforts to deny the Holocaust and gave an interview with Quds News Agency, a Holocaust- denying website. Sizer is also a speaker at the provocatively named Christ at the Checkpoint conference, which features a theology called supersessionism which has anti-Semitic overtones.”

Writing in March 2011, Sizer said that Saif Gaddafi made a surprise visit to Israel to buy more weapons for his father, the late ruler of Libya.

"He goes to Israel regularly because, according to a senior Middle East Ecclesiastical source, both his mother and aunt are Jewish and live in Israel.

"Blood is indeed thicker than water. Perhaps this is why the US is reluctant to impose a ‘no-fly’ zone over Libya,” Sizer said.

It emerged that Sizer subsequently modified his post and removed the last line.

In June 2011, Sizer gave an interview to a Malaysian television program in which he claimed that "the Zionists” and the Far- Right in Britain were forming an alliance.

"It’s ironic that the very people who favored the work of Hitler are now working with the Zionists against the Muslims because they view them as a threat,” he said.

The complaint will now be considered by Bishop Christopher Hill, the bishop of Guildford, which is the jurisdictional area under which Sizer’s church falls.

N
narrowpath


Proverbs 30:33 For as the churning of milk produces butter, And wringing the nose produces blood, So the forcing of wrath produces strife.

Greg, perhaps it is time to close this thread. What do you think? Nothing edifying in it, just whipping up strife.

S
sermonindex

It's ok, Narrowpath, we are not responding to Revenue in kind. We are able to ignore him/her. No one here hates Jewish people or wants to see harm come to them or anyone else.

S
sermonindex

Yes please lock this thread also Greg.
The initial post quoted a well known anti-Jewish, anti- Israeli hater of the Jewish people. On what basis can this be considered remotely edifying?
Please do not give a platform to spew the quoted author's venom toward God's ancient people. .

C
crusader

Hi Rev___Enue

I was looking at the discussions to see what brothers and sisters where saying on the topic as i don't have any sway either side of the issue but it is very evident by your posts that this is an issue that is close to your heart and have been wounded by conversations about this in the past. your stance on this issue on this site seems to be anger and control about what people want to say which is not allowing people the freedom to discuss the issues without being attacked.

personally, i like to see what all sides are saying as it is then that i am able to make a mature christian choice as to the information provided. It is through the fruits of the spirit that readers can see the truth and can reason over issues in love and peace.

if you use these responses to the secular world it wouldn't advance the Gospel in fact it would only cause offense and deepen the hatred.

I'm sorry if my reply is wrong in anyway but it is how i am seeing the responses. some of the other reply has only added fuel on the fire which is normally a good sign that the comments has moved out of the realm of spirit and into the realm of flesh where Satan wants it.

I personally would like to see your point of view as it will bring balance to the topic or another facet but not under manner in which you are bringing it. i value your understanding on the topic.

S
sermonindex

Hello Karl

Thank you for your kind reply.
It does bother me when religion is used to attack any race or nationality.
Especially Jewish people and even Italians. One of whom I am.
At this point I well let God defend his people and take my hands off. He will separate the wheat from the chaff in his due time.

God bless you

O
Oracio

Brothers and sisters, it has been grieving for me to see a certain form of racism (anti-Gentilism if you will) being exhibited in these forums as of late. This is one reason I withdrew from the forums for a while.

It has been supposed that one is anti-Semitic on account of holding to the view that there is no Jew and Gentile division in God's economy both in this age and in the age to come. Multitudes of Scriptures have been referenced and talked about in a civil manner to present our case in these threads, yet the accusation of anti-Semitism has continued regardless of how reasonable and civil we've endeavored to be; some of the accusations being more severe than others.

But I guess this shouldn't surprise me too much as this was something the early church too had to deal with. In the New Testament we get the impression that Jews at times were really tempted to look down on Gentiles and likewise Gentiles were tempted to look down on Jews, and Paul in particular had to labor to promote and keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

As brother Julius21 already pointed out (don't remember which thread), when it came down to defending the unity of the Church, in Galatians 2 we see that Paul did not hold back in rebuking Peter for taking sides with Jewish Christians against Gentile Christians. Peter was giving the impression that there still existed a certain type of division between Jews and Gentiles in God's economy and that Jews still had a superior status as was the case under the Old Covenant. May we all learn the lesson taught there.

S
sermonindex

So true, Oracio. "Blessed are the peacemakers". Jesus preached a Gospel of Love and reconciliation to all men and then died a substitutionary death for their sins.

Christians should not associate with anyone who thinks they have a divine unction to bring about the Kingdom of God by fleshly force. Jesus chastised His disciples for thinking this was the way to achieve His Kingdom.

We have been saying all along that Christians must rise above the political and military engagements in this world just as Christ did, who brought a message of freedom from bondage, but not the bondage of the Egyptians, Romans, Germans or Palestinians but rather a freedom from the bondage of sin. If we are not set free from the bondage of sin, then we are not set free from true bondage.

Let us preach the Gospel of reconciliation and peace to all men seeking to make them brothers in the Lord rather than brothers in the philosophies of this world. And let them see that we support only Jesus Christ and His Kingdom and not any kingdoms of this world.

D
docs

Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.

I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.

Tha's all.

Thank you.

M
MrBillPro

I think this scripture below about covers everyone that don't quite understand everything, and might possibly be lead into confusion. I think the word is saying here, "don't let your finite mind beat you up". "Mr. Bill's Interpretation"

For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God].
1 Corinthians 13:12

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sermonindex

by docs on 2015/10/31 13:38:48

Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.

I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.

Tha's all.

Thank you.

Doc, you are right and I agree with you. There are extremes on both sides. Not believing in dispensationalism or Christian Zionism does not make one anti-semitic and believing in dispensationalism and Christian Zionism does not necessarily make one a racist. And at the same time there are groups on both sides that are anti-semitic and racist. So, as I have said they are murky waters filled with terrible mixture.

It is always safe for the Christian to walk as Christ walked staying above the fray of political and military ideaologies of this world. We must always take the side of Christ.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the "Good News" to ALL the nations. It is the Gospel to the Jews and the Gospel to the Gentiles.

‘He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit’ (Gal 3:14).

The Kingdom of God is the "rulership of God", the gift of the Holy Spirit to rule in our hearts.

In Paul’s understanding then: the Blessing Promised to Abraham = the Kingdom of God.

The fulfillment did not take place in the most obvious way. As Christians we know the fulfillment can only be seen by faith (without which, it is impossible to please God).

What the NT does not talk about is also very important to notice: The unbelieving Jews at Antioch could have raised many objections to Paul’s claim, but notice they did not raise these objections:
Ӣ the Land promised to Abraham is still under Roman authority, we have no autonomy or security!
Ӣ most of the people to whom the Land was promised are still in the diaspora, they have not received it!
Ӣ we are having the same socio-economic problems as before!
Ӣ everything continues the same as it always has!
”¢ where then is the fulfilment of the Promise ”“ we don’t see it!

"Brothers, children of Abraham … We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus” (Acts 13:26-33).

Paul claims that the resurrection of Christ has fulfilled the promise.

And we have this from Ephesians:
‘His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord… ‘
‘ … that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise ”“ in Christ Jesus … ‘ (Eph 3:10-11, 3:6)

Again, a final confirmation from Galatians 3: ‘He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit’ (Gal 3:14).

Like Abraham, and through Abraham, the nations would be restored into the Rule of God.

But what about the Land?

The promise of the Land is for the Resurrection. Not for the earthly realm in which thieves break in and steal, and moths and rust corrode and destroy.

Peter writes to the children of Abraham and tells them:

‘Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade ”“ kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time’ (1 Pet. 1:3-5).

By destroying sin and death, God has fulfilled the promise to Abraham! Not by securing the Land, but by securing the Resurrection that must precede the giving of the Land!

Now that Jesus has reversed the consequences of Adam’s sin, and restored the Rule of God, Abraham can be raised on the last day and together with us, he will receive ”“ himself, according to the promise ”“ the Land ‘as an eternal possession!’

‘Brothers, children of Abraham … We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus ….’ (Acts 13:26-33)

According to the Dispensational view, the Jews have their origin in Abraham, not in the promise to Abraham. They define Israel by race and physical descent. By this definition, it follows that those who rejected God’s revelation in Christ, continue, in spite of their unfaithfulness, to be part of Israel and continue to be the rightful heirs to the Promise.

This brings us to a further critical error of Dispensationalism which, contrary to New Testament, teaches that the Promise to Abraham has NOT YET been fulfilled. And since it has NOT YET been fulfilled, God remains obligated to fulfill it in the future. Most would in fact say that God has now begun to fulfill the Promise, since the modern State of Israel was established in 1948.

In this way, Dispensationalism also subverts the New Testament teaching that Jews and Gentiles are "heirs together … of the same promise” and "sharers together in the same inheritance”.

This is from John Hagee’s influential book Jerusalem Countdown:
‘Israel has been given an earthly Kingdom with an earthly Jerusalem now located in Israel. The Church has been given a New Jerusalem located in heaven.’

Hebrews 11:16 says that "they [the Jewish Patriarchs] were longing for a better country ”“ a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” It also says "only together with us, will they receive what was promised.” [i.e. in the resurrection]

The reason the dangers of Dispensationalism are not obvious to many is because Dispensationalism has never expressly denied the Gospel of the New Testament. Many Dispensational teachers will even emphasise that "there is no salvation, except through faith in Jesus.”

Rather than an outright denial of the New Testament Gospel, Dispensationalism undermines its principal claims and then ring-fences them within a defined era, or dispensation, which it refers to as the Church Age or the Time of the Gentiles.

So, we have a misconstrued New Testament gospel which belongs to the Church Age. And we then have the end-time salvation Plan gospel for the modern Jew, for the new dispensation.

The New Testament era is disparagingly called a ‘parenthesis’ ”“ in other words, a side show! The time that has elapsed between the coming of Jesus and the present day, is considered an incidental phase to God’s Divine Plan, which lasts only until God will get back to His main line of business, which concerns itself with a racially defined Israel.


Quotes taken from: THE GOOD NEWS TO ISRAEL & THE NATIONS (if you want to read the rest).
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-good-news-to-israel-the-nations/

O
Oracio

Two sides of the coin. If it's wrong to accuse those as anti-semitic (they are not) who disagree with the pre-mill view that holds to Israel having a distinct place in a millennium to come, perhaps it's also wrong to accuse those who believe so of advocating racism and anti-Gentilism. It's not racism at all.

I was referring to having a certain type of sentiment in which one is quick to call Christians Jew haters on account of disagreeing with their view on the Jew and Gentile issue; a sentiment that has no patience for those that disagree even if they disagree respectfully or civilly. I am convinced that that type of sentiment does indeed stem from a certain form of racism, especially if said persons happen to be Jewish themselves. Those that hold to this form of racism basically try to cover themselves by quickly accusing others of being Jew haters for disagreeing. I don't think it's that difficult for us to see this type of sentiment/racism here as of late.

I don't see where folks have argued there is a division between Jew and Gentile in God's economy since both groups belonging to the body of Christ has been acknowledged more than once.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. Our view is that there are not two separate peoples of God with two separate plans but only one people of God made up of Jew and Gentile both in this age and in the age to come. We do not believe that Scripture teaches that there is a separate plan for ethnic Israel, even if said plan includes Gentiles. Again, we believe that Scripture teaches only one plan for one people of God, namely spiritual Israel which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Hope that helps to clarify things a bit ;-)

N
narrowpath

Julius21 said

[Sometimes I wonder if the UN and Britain did a grave disservice to the Jewish people and should have left well enough alone and let the Jewish people remain as "strangers and pilgrims" in this world. I wonder if dispersed amongst all the countries as they were, if many more of them would have found the Lord. We may have really hurt them thinking we were helping them. Of course, I don't know what the UN's motive was, but it is rarely a good one. ]

I think you are giving it away here, Julius. Do you think it was Britain and the UN who gave the Jews a homeland contrary to the will of God? And even Britain let down Israel badly in the process and suffered nearly four decades of post war economic dearth.

Weren't there enough OT promises given that prophesied a reinstation of Israel as a national state? like Isaiah 66:8

In saying so you are trading arms with those who deny Israel the right to exist as a sovereign state.

Stephen Sizer is so dangerous because he keeps a humble good guy facade on the outside but he did a lot of subversive work to drive the anti-zionist agenda.

Why did you post this article first and then admitted "I am just learning about Stephen Sizer"

Jacob Praasch who I know in person wanted to take on Stephen Sizer in a debate and I am sure Jacob would have shred him in peaces. He is a brilliant mind and very well versed all matters concerning Judeo-Christian eschatology, Judaism, Talmud-Tora, Midrash, Semitic languages and all the rest of it.
Unfortunately his style of discourse and unrestrained rant does disservice to the cause and makes some of his enemies appear more commendable.

David Pawson, whom I also personally know, wrote a book in response that I would like to recommend here. There is also a YouTube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAmKZD1eYxA

David Pawson is a respected bible teacher, apologetic and and authority on Israel and the church by a broad spectrum of Christian institutions in Britain and beyond.

http://davidpawson.org/books/defending-christian-zionism/

You would be surprised to find that David Pawson does not hold the dispensational stand either.

P
proudpapa

RE: ///Weren't there enough OT promises given that prophesied a reinstation of Israel as a national state? like Isaiah 66:8///

What we are saying is that we are not convinced that Israels reestablishment, is what those scriptures are referring too.

Wesley's Notes for Isaiah 66:8

66:8 For - As soon as the voice of the gospel put the church of the Jews into her travail, in Christ's and the Apostles time, it presently brought forth.


S
sermonindex

Narrowpath,

I found a couple of articles by Stephen Sizer that were biblically correct as far as the "one new man", that scripture teaches us about. Apart from that, I don't know anything about that man. I neither endorse nor defend him as I don't have any information on Him except that some have railed at him being anti-semitic, which I have taken note of.

Regarding modern day Israel: Obviously, God allowed the nation of Israel to be created, but what myself and other brothers and sisters have been doing is trying to "rightly divide" the truth and understand from scripture whether this indeed has a place in biblical prophecy and the heart of God.

I have already said, and I will say it again as many times as I have to that I don't deny their right to exist. I don't deny anyone's right to exist. My only interest is a biblical one. I don't align myself with any people group or nations or militaries in this world. I also do not align myself with anti-semitic, anti-muslims or anti-anything except of course anti-christ.

I am pro Jesus and am only interested in the generation I am part of from a biblical perspective. As Oracio and Proudpapa and others have already intimated, it is patently unfair to accuse those who don't believe in dispensationalism to be anti-semitic. I trust you agree.

S
sermonindex

narrowpath,

I was looking for some debates between Stephen Sizer and Jacob Prasch on Youtube. I could only find Jacob's challenge to him for a debate but I could not find the actual debate. Don't know if it ever happened or not. If you could provide me the text of Stephen's speech in Iran, I would be happy to review it and point out anti-semitic remarks, if I see them.

We have to be careful with guilt by association. The Army Chaplain that ministered to the prisoners of Nuremburg, Hitler's top generals, admirals and other leaders received thousands of letters accusing him of being a Jew hater. It seems that he led about 8 people to the Lord.

You can read about "Henry Gerecke ”“ Chaplain to Nazi war criminals" and determine for yourself if he was a Jew Hater. http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/henry-gerecke-chaplain-to-nazi-war-criminals/

With that said, I am still not defending Stephen Sizer against accusations made in SI. I still want to read some content of him being anti-semitic. So, I am searching on my own, but if you do have the content of his speech in Iran, I would read it and give you my thoughts.

In the meantime, I am going to listen to a rather long debate that I found and hoping that in a 1 hour and 26 minutes debate I will be able to spot what you and others are stating about Stephen Sizer.

I am currently listening to "Has the Church Replaced Israel - Calvin Smith vs Stephen Sizer"

If Stephen Sizer expresses anti-semitism, I will gladly report to you that I did recognize it and it was unmistakeable. So you won't have to take my word for it, if for some reason you don't like my conclusion, here is what I will now listen to. Surely, in this debate, he will expose himself. I do not and will never side with anyone that wishes hurt for anyone else. That includes Israel or the Palestinians. Jesus will always be the only answer for sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1Lve39Bvg

N
narrowpath

Here is his speech in Iran, only 11 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgQSPcLKS_c


H
Heydave

Interesting to see this narrowpath.
No true Christian would stand before unbelievers and false religious people and denounce their brothers in the Lord, even if they disagree with them on issues like this. Sizer and his like are men who speaks with fork tongue! This just shows he is not a true christian. Maybe he would better spending his energy confronting the hypocrisy and immorality within the church he belongs to.

S
sermonindex

Ok, Dave and Narrowpath, I sincerely am taking note of what you say and will listen to the video that you posted, narrowpath.

I just listened to the opening remarks of Calvin Smith and Stephen Sizer. I pretty much got all of Stephen Sizer's opening remarks. Here they are. So far, I don't see anything anti-semitic but there is still 1 hour and 6 minutes left. I have no commentary in here and Mr. Sizer asks 3 questions. I think this was a good presentation on his part. Let's see how the rest goes...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1st Question:

Who are God's "chosen people"?

The assumption that the Jewish people are God's chosen people is deeply ingrained in Church life and to question it sounds heretical or anti-semitic. And yet, both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures insist that membership of God's people is open to all races on the basis of grace through faith.

For example, Psalm 87:4-6
"I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah."


Isaiah 56 seems to anticipate and repudiate the rise of an exclusive, Israeli nationalisism.

"Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." (Isa 56:6-7)

In the Hebrew scriptures, "God's people", "Israel", was an inclusive term not a racial designation. "Yes, the majority were Jews, obviously, but other races were welcome on the same basis of faith. In the New Testament the word "Chosen" was only used of Jesus and the followers of Jesus, Jews or Gentiles.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect (other translations: use "chosen") of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" (Col 3:12)

Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles that believe in Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------------------

2nd Question: What is the significance of the Promise Land?
"Contrary to popular assumptions the scriptures insist that the land belongs to God and residence is always conditional."

"The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me." (Lev 25:23)

"The scriptures insist the land was open to all God's people on the basis of faith not race."

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." (Heb 11:8-10)

"Abraham was not looking for an earthly home, he was looking for an heavenly city. And then Hebrews 11 concludes by saying: That they were commended for their faith and none of them received what was promised because God had planned something "better for us" (NT Saints) so that together with they (Hebrew Saints) we would all be made perfect. That is, one people of God, not two. So, the land was only ever intended to be a temporary residence, yes God may have plans for the Jewish people today in the land, but I don't find that explicit in the New Testament."

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40)
----------------------------------------------------------------

3rd Question: Does God have a separate plan for Israel apart from the Church?

"Many believe and Calvin has expressed it eloquently that God has a continuiing covenant with Israel separate from the Church and that is often based on Romans 9-11. But, if we go back in Paul's logic in Romans and begin in chapter 2, he defines a Jew who is not a Jew outwardly, where circumcision is of the flesh, but one is a Jew who is one inwardly and circumcision is of the heart. So, Paul has already defined what a Jew is, early on in Romans 2. When you get to Romans 9, he limits what he means by Israel, Romans 9:6-8. Paul is narrowing down his definition of Israel. He is saying not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor, because they are descendants are they Abraham's children, on the contrary, it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.


"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8)

Galatians 4, Gentile believers are the children of Sarah, like Isaac, and those who reject Jesus (of Jewish origin) are the children of Hagar, Paul says.

In Phillipians 3,

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Php 3:3)

Paul explicitly identifies the Church as the "true circumcision". He is using language of circumcision to refer to Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus. Now, I would argue that this is entirely consistent with an inclusive people of God which I have already summarized. Of course, I agree with Calvin that God has not rejected the Jewish people, His covenant purpose with them, as with every other race is that they may be saved.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." (Rom 10:1)

To create one people for Himself made up of Jews and Gentiles.
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;" (Eph 2:15)

His covenant purposes are fulfilled in them (Jews) and in us through Jesus. Very explicitly, Ephesians 2, he is talking to Gentiles (uncirmcumsized), separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise, having no hope...have now been made nigh by the blood of Christ...Who hath made both one (people)...for He Himself is our Peace."

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Eph 2:12-14)

His purpose is to create one new people (one new man) out of the two thus making peace reconciling both through the cross.

To summarize: In the New Testament, it explicitly states that the promises made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and those who acknowledge Him, irrespective of their origins. God's blessings are by grace through faith not works nor race.

Let me conclude with Galatians 3:16:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Then, he goes on in verses 28 and 29,

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29)

If you belong to Christ you are Abraham's seed.

"I take that as a promise that applies to me as well as my Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ. We are heirs according to the promises made to Abraham through Christ alone. So, it is not an understatement to state that what is at stake is our understanding of the Gospel, the Centrality of the Cross, the Unity of the Church, does God have two people or one, and the nature of our missionary mandate not the least of which is to the Jewish people."

N
narrowpath

I do believe that God, who still has an everlasting covenant with Israel will work with the present day, secular state of Israel consisting of mostly unconverted Jews to bring about His Kingdom on Earth with Jerusalem at the present location will be the capital. Jew and Gentile will share the millennial blessings together. Of course there are many more events that in the process like the great tribulation, rapture and resurrection of the dead, and Christ's return in glory as the Messiah.

As to John Wesley's interpretation, I think in his day and age the geo-political scene has not been set yet so that he would be able to see that. Only after the Zionist movement, WWII and the holocaust was the church able to understand the significance and fulfillment of bible prophecies concerning Israel to a greater degree and it is still unfolding as we follow the events in the Middle East. One day in the future we will look back towards today and wonder why we did not understand the events of 2015.

Leave Wesley alone, he has done us much good. Many men of God in the 18th and 19th century could not see it either.


S
sermonindex

Heydave wrote:

"Sizer and his like are men who speaks with fork tongue! This just shows he is not a true christian. Maybe he would better spending his energy confronting the hypocrisy and immorality within the church he belongs to"

Well said.

D
docs

You wrote,

"I was referring to having a certain type of sentiment in which one is quick to call Christians Jew haters on account of disagreeing with their view on the Jew and Gentile issue; a sentiment that has no patience for those that disagree even if they disagree respectfully or civilly. I am convinced that that type of sentiment does indeed stem from a certain form of racism, especially if said persons happen to be Jewish themselves. Those that hold to this form of racism basically try to cover themselves by quickly accusing others of being Jew haters for disagreeing. I don't think it's that difficult for us to see this type of sentiment/racism here as of late."

Doc: I agree with this and some of the replies here have been overboard. Yet from my experience, anyone who as any views about a future for Israel as a redeemed nation are many times quickly labelled as "Zionists." The scriptures speak in many places of a return of Jews to the ancient land and this is going to have to happen in some way and in some fashion by those Christians today who believe it are almost automatically labelled as carnal Zionists. And then usually comes a small lecture to the effect that it is not the natural seed who count but the true descendants of Abraham are the children of faith. As if that fact is not known by those who believe Israel has a future. The term Zionist to describe other Christians is almost always used in a deragatory manner as if to plunge the knife in and turn it a little bit. If the scriptures speak of a return to the land then to believe that is not to automatically have thrown in with a supposed Israeli police apartheid state etc. My contention is if you want to see apartheid like police states then look at the Muslim nations surrounding Israel. Yet Israel the "Zionists" are always singled out. Having said that, some of the replies here have been overboard in my opinion but at the same time critics of Zionism rarely if ever make note of some of the reasons political Zionism came about. Anti-semitism even from the church played a part in the rise of modern Zionism yet it is rarely acknowledged. Enough of this but I think the way the term Zionist is many times used against other Christians ought to be reconsidered.

You wrote,

"Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. Our view is that there are not two separate peoples of God with two separate plans but only one people of God made up of Jew and Gentile both in this age and in the age to come. We do not believe that Scripture teaches that there is a separate plan for ethnic Israel, even if said plan includes Gentiles. Again, we believe that Scripture teaches only one plan for one people of God, namely spiritual Israel which is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Hope that helps to clarify things a bit."

Doc: I am not a dispensational or pre-trib believer yet I guess I may suffer from guilt by association because I often am automatically placed in the dispensational camp because I believe Israel has a future. To believe this is not necessarily to embrace Darbyism and all that comes with it. I believe there always has and always will be ONE group of God's people and there are NOT two plans - one for Israel and one for the church. This a major error in my opinion and has had dramatic negative results in understanding prophecy and the inheritance of the saints in Christ. I believe there is one plan for the people of God that includes Jews and Gentiles of course but don't believe that since there is "no Jew or Gentile in Christ" and because the promises were fulfilled in Christ that this nullifies or spiritualizes a future for a redeemed Israel living in the land. Because there is said to be no Jew or Gentile in Christ has led to over spiritualization and allegorization of many prophecies. I don't buy into the notion that believing that a literal Israel will live in a literal land someday as a belieiving nation somehow sets up walls and divisions again when this is part of the original covenants that Gentiles were allowed to become part of and participate in. It's the Jew who was first entrusted with the oracles of God (Rom 3:1-2, Romans 9:4). That does not make me one who embraces a belief that God has two separate plans for two separate peoples. That is anathema to the whole drama of redemption in my opinion. There is a large group of believers in the world today who are pre-mill who are not dispensational but yet because they are pre-mill their position is usually confused with Darbyism and dispensationalism.

Well, it's mighy late and I got up from sleep for a while. I hope I haven't rambled here as I just thought I would take some time to fashion at least some kind of reply.

Thank you.

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It was clearly brought out that Christian Zionism can be used in a pejorative way, and yet it was also brought out that there are many levels of Christian Zionism and not all of them used pejoratively or at least meant "pejoratively". Calvin Smith then said he believed in a Jewish homeland and he believes it for theological reasons, "so, I guess technically, I am a Christian Zionist." They both admitted there are extremes on both sides and there are many definitions on both sides both polemic and pejorative and Calvin even admitted that he is guilty of polemics and pejorative stances, sometimes.

Steven Sizer says he does not deny them a homeland. (Read about his burden later on in this post).

Steven Sizer said "the extremes of Christian Zionism are not necessarily the norm in Britain but that he was dealing primarily with American Christian Zionism, people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell (now deceased), Oral Roberts (now deceased), Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and John Hagee. Hagee for example, who is pastor of a 20,000 member church in San Antonio, Texas, piped into 99 million homes weekly, said "the United States must join Israel in a preemptive military strike against Iran to fulfill Bible prophecy and speed the return of Christ." This is one of the most influential Christian leaders in America calling on America to bomb Iran. I see that as provocative and anathema in terms of the fact that Jesus has called us to be peacemakers not widowmakers."

(I posted this before regarding Hagee: http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/in-defence-of-the-gospel-a-response-to-john-hagees-in-defense-of-israel/)

Steven Sizer says that his burden "is with those elements within Christian Zionism that are treating the Jews as a 3rd act in a 4 act play."

Calvin Smith said, "You know, I have no problems with that and I think there are extremes of Christian Zionism". (He got a wrong impression reading Steven's blog and was glad that he actually met Steven and spoke with him.)

Calvin Smitth, then went on to say, "I do not think for example it was acceptable to talk about Christian Zionism, in for example, a country like Iran. I think there are certain settings where you should not talk about Christians to non-Christians." Calvin Smith's impression is that Steven is saying this about all Christians and generalizing but Steven quickly corrected him that he does not say that and specifically spoke about extreme Christian Zionism in Iran. He also said, and Calvin was quite surprised and happy to hear it that Steven has critiqued the President of Iran and and said Ahmadinejad has made provocative statements. He said, "the irony is, outside of Israel the largest community of Jewish people in the Middle East is in Iran and they have been there for thousands of years and they are not all queuing up to leave." Steven said, he is just agreeing with Calvin that "we should not use generalizations to describe Americans or Christian Zionists and the same applies to the Iranian people. He indicated that "there is as much disagreement amongst Iranians with Ahmadinejad and the Revolutionary Guard as there would be in Syria or in Britain. Iranians need to hear the good news of Jesus Christ and I have been instrumental in getting Scripture into Iran and working with the Church there to support the Church which is suffering deeply. I recognize that."

The moderator asked him, "just as you have listed people in America that you totally disagree with what they are saying, would you also totally disagree with what is being said by the President of Iran?"

Steven Sizer: "Of course I would. I have critiqued him and as a result of that I no longer get invited back on certain programs."

Calvin Smith was pleasantly astonished and said, "That is good to hear, I did not know that. That is really good to hear."

Steven Sizer: "I will go anywhere to share the Gospel with anyone that will listen."

Calvin Smith had this to say about extreme Christian Zionists: "They are guilty of Israeliolatry, a worship of Israel rather than Jesus. I think that is a very real danger. He doesn't think the extreme Christian Zionists have as much political clout in America as people assume." He knows many people certainly think that and it is only his opinion.

Steven Sizer said this: "My burden is that we are heading for an apocalyptic situation in the Middle East. My burden is for the Jewish people in Israel as well as the Palestinians. Nuclear, Biological, Chemical weapons are no respecter of race. The Middle East is too small an area for it to get out of hand."

Steven also said there are things happening on both sides in Israel with the Jewish people and Palestinians that are creating a very dangerous and unstable situation as much for Israelis as it is for Palestinians and therefore, "My burden is, how can we diffuse that, how can we find a way forward that will see Jews and Palestinians living, God-willing side by side in peace? It has happened in the past and it can happen again as it has here in Europe, but we have to hold both (sides) together in our prayers and our actions.

In closing Calvin Smith said "It was a pleasure to meet you, it really has and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I know some people on the pro-Israel side have criticized you but I see you as a genuine brother in Christ, I just disagree with a lot of the things that you say and I would like to dialogue with you some more."

They both were asked to give our their websites:
CalvinLSmith.com
StevenSizer.com

This was an excellent debate, very civil and very informative and extremely enlightening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1Lve39Bvg

Except for Steven Sizer's theological intro that I posted earlier, you should listen to this debate (don't take my word for it) as I only wrote in this post some non-theological highlights that have seems to cause a lot of controversy.

What I take away from this debate:

There are extremes on both sides that are definitely hateful. As Christians, we should not associate with any of these groups, calling each other terrible names and that we can have a good dialogue on SI regarding the scriptures without closing off discussion, by getting emotional and taking sides against one another.

Another thing that this debate brought out for me is that (and I have been a Christian now for just shy of 40 years) a real apocalyptic culture has been created in the United States and we have exported it around the world where people seem to be on edge all of the time, wasting precious energy and resources getting "ready" for persecution and the end times.

I know people that will not have children out of fear for the days they are living in. People that will not get married, people spending vast amounts of money to make sure their bug-out shelter is stocked. I know young people (Christians) that have a fatalistic, pessimisitic and cynical attitude about their future and the day they are living in. We have done this to them. Our generation. We need to change this.

I just want to say that we all need to refocus our spiritual eyes and heart on the Lord Jesus Christ, and "occupy till He comes". There are people dying everyday without a Savior but so many of us are too busy with the coming apocalypse on our minds. If the American Church would just refocus on Jesus Christ instead of geo-politics, I think then you would see the revival that you long so much for. I am of the opinion that many Christians are walking in fear and trepidation today, because of all the apocalyptic rhetoric and that they are unknowingly taking sides against people that need a Savior. I have had to correct many things in my heart and am very thankful for this video and other resources that I have been looking at lately. We must love the muslim, the Jew, the Hispanic and remember that the spirit of Anti-christ is always trying to set men against men. We have been fed this slogan, "No peace till Jesus Christ comes back" with regard to the Jewish people and Palestinians, and then we just believe that there won't be even though, we know that when Jesus comes into one's heart, He does make peace and more than than He makes the Jew and Gentile, ONE NEW MAN. Should we just give up and resign ourselves to NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) warfare in the Mideast or should we do everything to bring about a peaceful resolution. What if all the extreme apocalyptic Christian Zionists, spent all their energy in the pursuit of peace rather than war? Something to thing about. It goes without saying that we also appear pretty "kooky" to the world, obsessed with end-time scenarios, and the world is not blind, they sense fear on Christians, and not peace.

In conclusion, we should believe the best about each other, not assuming each other is "extreme" and continue to try to have good dialogues regarding the Scriptures and pray for peace amongst the Israelis and Palestinians.


O
Oracio

Docs, thank you for that clarification. Unfortunately I don't have time right now to get into the particulars of our disagreements on this issue.

Julius21, thank you for that last post and also for all the resources you have shared. I started listening to the debate last night but was only able to watch about the first 22 minutes because it was late and I was too sleepy. I hope to finish it soon. So far it looks very good. I also checked out www.messianicgoodnews.org and found it to be very refreshing in terms of hearing from Jewish brethren and seeing this issue from a very biblical perspective.

O
Oracio

Docs, one more thing I forgot to mention. Lord willing, I hope to soon be able put together an exposition of Ephesians 2:11-3:12 which is the pertinent passage dealing with the one New Man. I believe the answer to the question you've been asking is acquired through a careful look at that passage in context.

If any other brethren have the time and feel led to put together that exposition before I'm able to, please feel free.

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Narrowpath, you wrote:

"I do believe that God, who still has an everlasting covenant with Israel will work with the present day, secular state of Israel consisting of mostly unconverted Jews to bring about His Kingdom on Earth with Jerusalem at the present location will be the capital. Jew and Gentile will share the millennial blessings together. Of course there are many more events that in the process like the great tribulation, rapture and resurrection of the dead, and Christ's return in glory as the Messiah."

This is absolutely true. A physical, solid, literal not vaporized and allegorized
Kingdom of God here on earth centralized in Jerusalem with JESUS on the throne,

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Rev_Enue,

Is it ok if we keep discussing Scripture? Even if you believe we are theologically wrong can we continue without you peppering our conversation with "you are wrong, you are wrong"?

You don't mind if we continue, do you? I think we have a very good idea of how you feel.

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Julius21

The vast majority of Christians do not share your perspective.
Most in this forum do not believe what you believe and never will
concerning Israel and the Jews.
So why do you not go and share your opinions with those think like you.
Why are you trying to do here?
Greg himself stated his pro Israel/jewish viewpoint and you continue to post
the anti Israel material like that of Stephen Sizer and his ilk. It seems that you
are the one with an agenda.

Overall this place is not one in accord with your anti israel / Jewsish bias
and that is a good thing.

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So you are forbidding roadsign, TMK, JFW, Oracio, proudpapa, HeyDave (opposing view) and I to continue to discuss this?

Greg did not forbid us to discuss this subject, he just stated what SI's position was and asked us to be civil and kind which we have been endeavoring to do. And Greg never said that we can only discuss subjects on this site that he agrees with.

And by the way, crusader wanted to hear more about it so I would say crusader is in audit mode, right now.

I have no agenda but to discuss the scriptures, so I reject yet another of your accusations.

Why don't you appeal to Greg? If Greg forbids the discussion, then of course we will stop. But, why should we stop because you don't like it? The only thing Greg forbade were hateful remarks by you. You were warned twice, if you recall.

So, can you please leave us alone? Of course if you have something substantial to add to the conversation we would like you to participate and that goes for anyone else? I don't think you try to run other people off other threads when you don't agree with them, do you?

P
proudpapa

Rev__Enue ,

I want you to consider your conduct in these recent threads !

We can disagree with out attacking each other on a personal level.

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JULIOUS21

It was you that continues to bring up Steven Sizer in
a favorable light. He is a well known Jew bashing antisemitic and you obviously endorse his hateful lies.
Rev__Enue has every right to oppose your lies about Israel
and the descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Shalom Rev

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proudpapa

No one has a right to lie and call people 'Jew Haters'

Julius and others have continued to turn the other cheek in these discussions

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Yes they do have every right when they promote Jew haters

O
Oracio

Please correct me if I'm wrong but what I got from that 11 minute video of Stephen Sizer was that he called heretical the type of extreme Zionism promoted by preachers/teachers such as John Hagee, the type of extreme Zionism that many Dispensationalist brethren here have agreed is indeed heretical and harmful. What I get from Sizer is that he is strongly against the type of extreme Christian Zionism in which one feels they have an obligation to promote war in the middle east as opposed to peace. In that short video Sizer is basically trying to be a witness for Christ to the Iranians and reason with them that that type of extreme Zionism has nothing to do with true biblical Christianity; that true Christianity is not for the promotion of earthly wars because our battle is not against flesh and blood, etc.

And for that he is maligned here as a satanic Jew hater, which makes me go sigh.

O
Oracio

Also, in that short video Sizer mentions that he got together with the Christian churches in Israel and signed a certain agreement of being against that type of extreme Zionism. Are all those churches Jew haters also on account of that?

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Just a tiny sample

A Guildford vicar has removed a Facebook post linking to an article entitled ‘9-11/Israel did it’ ”“”‚but asked Jewish News to show him articles refuting such claims, writes Justin Cohen.

Rev. Stephen Sizer (pictured), who is well-known for his anti- Israel views, posted a link to an article which, among other things, seeks to connect wealthy American Jews to the attacks, through their ownership of buildings, political affiliations or links to Israel. "Is this anti-Semitic?” he asked online. "It raises so many questions.”

http://www.jewishnews.co.uk/show-evidence-israel-wasnt-behind-911-asks-vicar-stephen-sizer/

and

Sizer Claims Christian Zionists the Same as ISIS and Al Qeada

Rev Stephen Sizer, notorious anti-Zionist, appears yet again on Iranian propaganda channel Press TV, denting his academic credibility even further, as he claimed his fellow Christians who support Israel ”“ Christian Zionists, are really no different from ISIS or Al Qaeda (3:38)!

http://roshpinaproject.com/2014/10/13/sizer-claims-christian-zionists-the-same-as-isis-and-al-qeada/

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Enue and notyetdark,

I reviewed a 1 hour 26 minute debate between Stephen Sizer and Calvin Smith and brother Calvin never once rose to the level of invective that you two have. Never once did he accuse Stephen Sizer of being a Jew-hater as you continue to push (and you have been warned twice).

I also reviewed a 11 minute video of Stephen Sizer speaking in Iran and I did not witness anything anti-semitic. If you would take the time to listen to it, he only spoke against the ultra-extreme Christian Zionism of John Hagee which no one here endorses. I have spoken with unsaved people before and had to spend time distancing myself from extremes of Christianity. Many of us have had to do the same thing.

Calvin Smith was actually blessed by the debate with Stephen since he had heard such negative things ab out him but after getting to know him through the debate he changed his attitude about Mr. Sizer and wants to get to know him better.

So, now we only have you guys persisting in interrupting conversation about the scriptures. This is not about defending or promoting Stephen Sizer, it is about exploring the scriptures.

I think we will get back to our discussion (and ignore you) and we will definitely bear in mind Greg's admonition to be loving and kind, and you can take your chances with Greg's other admonitions towards you if you want to continue with your accusations.

This concludes our dialog with you unless you wish to discuss the scriptures in a spirit of Christian love.

O
Oracio

As regards 9/11, do we really think it's completely impossible that it could have been an inside job as well as on outside one? There are different theories on it with good points or explanations. What I do know is that the governments of this world cannot be too easily trusted when it comes these types of events, that includes the American government, the Israeli government, the Saudi Arabian government, the Russian government, the Iranian government, etc. There is too much obvious corruption for us to be that gullible and accept everything we hear in the mainstream media.

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Some of the most deadly and influential ideological opponents that Israel faces are within the major Churches. Were it not for this, I believe that the Jewish State would not face quite such hostility in the media and amongst opinion formers in general. Christians who deny the theological basis of Jewish statehood adhere to a doctrine known as "replacement theology”, the idea that the Church is the "new”Israel and that the Jewish people have no special place in God’s economy of salvation. To many Christians, this writer included, this is tantamount to arguing that the Almighty does not keep His promises, so we must affirm and bear witness to the Abrahamic Covenant.

Despite the ghastly legacy of Christian anti-Semitism, stretching back to the teachings of St John Chrysostom, the Protestant Reformation, especially in its more non-conformist manifestations, resulted in the theological sidelining of hatred of the Jewish people and faith in most of those countries which embraced the Christian renewal, especially the United States and England.

The Shoah and the work of theologians such as Rev James Parkes, together with popular sympathy with Israel’s struggles for survival after 1948, meant that support for Zionism was embraced by "mainstream” Christianity in the British Commonwealth, well into the 1960s.

Arafat and the PLO knew that most Westerners cannot read or understand Arabic and also that the call to "drive the Jews into the Sea” that went down so well amongst the masses in the "Arab street” received a less sympathetic hearing outside the fringe circles of Communist or Nazi groups. With the aid of liberation theologians, the PLO set about reinventing the Palestinians as meek, helpless and timid victims.

Thus the Palestinians had to be recreated as-absurdly-a Christian minority to be thrust before the Israelis as a weapon of emotional blackmail.

Now I do not doubt that Palestinian Christians have indeed been inconvenienced by Israeli security measures since 1994 and have sometimes been treated harshly, but this is most decidedly NOT because of their Christian faith, but because they reside in areas where, sadly, there are also many homicidal men and women who will adopt any subterfuge-including passing themselves off as Christians or Jews-to enter Israel to maim and kill. To sympathise with their lot does not mean, however, that we can ignore the fundamental dynamics underlying their tragic plight, such as the abuse of their Churches or homes by terrorists to fire on Israeli soldiers, or the long history of violent rejectionism of either Jewish (and, for that matter, Christian) statehood in the Middle East.

Rev Stephen Sizer is a highly articulate campaigner against Israel and Zionism who is also the author of perhaps the leading text of the "boycott Israel” movement within the Church, "Christian Zionism :Road map to Armageddon”.

In Sizer’s worldview Christians who support Israel and the Jewish people are motivated by a millennialist agenda, a wish to hasten the End Times by encouraging the Jews to build the Third Temple and are thus- mirabile dictu-the real enemy of the Jews, who are too blinded by Zionism (in other words the wish to have their own state) to know what is good for them. This, of course, with only a few exceptions, is an utter travesty.

Traditional mainstream Anglicans support the Jewish people because we recognise the special bond between Christianity and Judaism and because we affirm the Divine Inspiration of the Jewish faith. Traditional Anglicans support the Jewish people because Christianity divorced from its Jewish roots is heresy. It is interesting to note that Arab Christian prelates who are hostile to Israel are uncomfortable with the Jewish Bible, believing perhaps that the "Old” Testament is somehow, if not redundant, of passing historical interest only.

The logical theological conclusion to this is the outright blurring of the differences between Christianity and Islam with, as an example, Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal’s grotesque self-abasement before Islamic fundamentalism:

"Greetings of appreciation to all martyrs that were killed on the Land of Palestine,” followed by his quote of the Koran verse: "Do not consider those that were killed for the sake of God as dead, but alive with their Lord”.

The other strand that motivates clerical opponents of Israel is the long discredited neo-Marxist doctrine of "liberation theology”, or its slightly milder "social Gospel”.

Devised primarily by Jesuit clerics to provide a theological framework for Christians supporting atheistic Communist revolutionary movements in South and Central America, its adherents have sought to recast the Palestinians as peasants victimized by colonialism and "imperialism” and the Jews as European and American interlopers, who are "too white” and too "middle class”. That most Israeli Jews are Sephardi or Mizrahi non-Europeans and that the 3000 year plus Jewish presence in the Holy Land long predates the arrival of Muslim Arabs does not seem to stop groups like Christian Aid from trying to shoehorn Palestinians into this false narrative.

Anglican Friends of Israel have been battling to show that much of the hostility towards Israel is linked to, if not based on, dislike of the Jewish people and faith.

Supporters of Stephen Sizer and Naim Ateek of the Sabeel Centre invariably try and shut down criticism by hurling the old canard that we are claiming that all criticism of the Israeli government is anti-Semitic.

Not so. I would like to see more done to help the Palestinian Christians, for example by reviving Ben Gurion’s call for a Grand Alliance between Jews and Arab Christians and offering the remaining Palestinian Christians Israeli citizenship (except for those Bishops who have distinguished themselves by supporting Israel’s enemies and who presumably will be content to live under Islamicist rule).

But when every Israeli government is treated as though it were run by Kach, every attempt at her self-defence as defilement of sacred soil and every false allegation of supposed Zionist perfidy is accepted at face value, then the charge of anti-Semitism is hard to avoid.

If you say, in effect, that the only Israeli government that you will respect is that which does the unthinkable and signs its own death warrant by allowing millions of self-styled "refugees” to take over the country, then you are denying the right of the persecuted and ancient Jewish people to have a state of their own.

On October 4th 2011 Stephen Sizer posted a link on his Facebook page to a viciously anti-Semitic website called ‘The Ugly Truth’. Sizer has also flirted with 9/11 "truthers”, tantamount to hinting at Israeli complicity in that outrage, as well as suggesting that Israel might commit some unspecified atrocity which it would then blame on the Iranian regime.

His conduct raises serious questions about his suitability for Holy Orders, yet his superiors have, in effect, tried to brush matters under the carpet.

For too long he and others like him have avoided charges of racism simply by repeating the mantra that "we are not anti Semites;some of our best friends are Jewish anti-Zionists”. (Like Deborah Fink, Tony Greenstein and other atheists of the ultra-left who only seem to "remember” that they are Jewish when they are attacking the Jewish state in the most strident of terms.)

This won’t do. Finally Stephen Sizer has been called out, not by his own Bishop, Rt Rev Christopher Hill, but by the Rt. Revd Nigel McCulloch, the highly-respected Bishop of Manchester and Chairman of the Council of Christians and Jews, in a press release issued on March 13th 2012:
"The content and the delay in removing the link from Mr Sizer’s Facebook page was disgraceful and unbecoming for a clergyman of the Church of England to promote. Members of the CCJ have described the website as ‘obscenely anti-Semitic.”

In addition, CCJ has filed a hate crime complaint against Rev Sizer with Surrey Police, meaning that he may soon become the subject of a criminal investigation.

Originating from an institution with Royal Patronage and the support of senior clergy across the spectrum, this can only be seen as a devastating rebuke, not only to Stephen Sizer, but also to those within the Church hierarchy who have looked the other way whilst he has sown the seeds of division and distrust.

It has often been assumed without clear evidence that Rev. Sizer is a "liberal” but is he?

His strident opposition to homosexuality and his recent (albeit subsequently removed) postingof an image linking to the website "Veterans Today” (a far right Holocaust-denying conspiracy theory site which has no evident connection with the US, Canadian or British military and which has published articles defending Adolf Hitler) suggest a less benevolent mindset.


http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/end-of-the-road-for-anti-israel-vicar-stephen-sizer/

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Oracio,

Pilots, structural and mechanical engineers and other professional engineers don't buy the party line. And the Mossad are like our CIA, not pure as the driven snow. How did it happen, we may never know, but it seems highly unlikely that the party line is the answer.

Check out what the pilots and professional engineers think about this, but let's not get on another rabbit trail (even though Rev-enue probably will).

http://pilotsfor911truth.com/

I don't know how this happened and I am not accusing anyone of it. I just don't believe the government's story. Is that ok? Can I have the freedom to do that?

Let's try to continue and ignore anyone that hurls vile accusations. Leave them to the moderators.

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Oracio,

I propose you start a new thread with your biblical thesis.

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Greg

You now have enough evidence to deal with their agenda and
to deal with these conspiracy theories about 9/11 and Israel

D
docs

You wrote,

"Docs, one more thing I forgot to mention. Lord willing, I hope to soon be able put together an exposition of Ephesians 2:11-3:12 which is the pertinent passage dealing with the one New Man. I believe the answer to the question you've been asking is acquired through a careful look at that passage in context."

"If any other brethren have the time and feel led to put together that exposition before I'm able to, please feel free."

Thank you for that and I appreciate it. Take your time if need be and any others who want to join are welcome. If you would, why don't you put it in the Scripture and Doctrine Forum in the thread "The One New Man and Covenants Made With Israel - PT II.

My flesh fails me at times but as far as what I know resides within me I don't plan on being rude to anyone by way of reply. I also still want to dialog with everyone if the chance arises.

Thank you.

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docs,

Thank you for your generosity.

O
Oracio

Amen docs and Julius. It'll be a bit of a challenge for me to set aside enough time soon to do it justice but I'll see what I can do.

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and let us close with a little truth

"But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come. For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it ... and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord. Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men ... For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... A new heart also will I give you ... And I will put my spirit within you ... And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers: and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God ... Not for your sakes do I this, saith the LORD God, be it known unto you” (Ezekiel 36:8-32).

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Take your time, Oracio.

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...that the LORD your God will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where the LORD your God has scattered you. If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. (Deuteronomy 30:3-5)

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YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT GOD'S CONDITIONS IF YOU WANT HIS PROMISES. Can't take verses out of context.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And SHALT RETURN UNTO THE LORD THY GOD and SHALT OBEY HIS VOICE according TO ALL that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, WITH ALL THINE HEART, AND WITH ALL THE SOUL;

THAT THEN, THE LORD THY GOD WILL TURN THE CAPTIVITY and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

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context is important Deuteronomy 30:1-2

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call [them] to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

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We are tracking along the same lines PP.

If we take the warnings of the prophets along with the promises, one could make a case that they are about to be exiled or scattered as they are serving other gods and forgotten the Lord.


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docs,

Thank you for your generosity.

Doc: Heck, we're gonna spend eternity together.

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Yes, we are! :-)

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YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT GOD'S CONDITIONS IF YOU WANT HIS PROMISES. Can't take verses out of context.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3

And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And SHALT RETURN UNTO THE LORD THY GOD and SHALT OBEY HIS VOICE according TO ALL that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, WITH ALL THINE HEART, AND WITH ALL THE SOUL;

THAT THEN, THE LORD THY GOD WILL TURN THE CAPTIVITY and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. (END)

Doc: I find it's helpful to remember that Israel's restoration will not be based on meeting conditions of the Mosaic Law. If that be the case they are forever consigned to failure because no man can keep the law. But that was the purpose of the law. It was a divine monkey wrench thrown into any and all of man's efforts to make themselves right with God. The dilemma of the Mosaic covenant was that God commanded them to keep something He knew from the beginning they could not keep. Just before their entrance into the land, Moses said as much when He pinpointed the issue as a issue of the heart.

3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders.

4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, not eyes to see, nor ears to hear. (Deut 29:3-4)

29 Oh that they had such a heart in them, they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and their sons forever! (Deut 5:29)

But the nation was stubborn and unable to keep all of God's commandments but the main hindrance was within their own hearts. God therefore, by assigning them the keeping of the Law, puposefully put them in a divine dilemma. Although God gave the Law He knew they would not be able to keep His commandments with an uncircucised heart. It's a early lesson that all men are born under sin. The Law helps us see this and drives us to Christ.

Then there is the Abrahamic covenant of grace given 430 years before which is the source of salvation. The Law which came 430 years after cannot nullify the covenant made with Abraham and that covenant is only obtainable in Christ that will eventually make the difference for even modern Israel. People try to say Israel can't succeed because they are not keeping the conditions of the Law. Modern Israel is just as unable to keep God's Law as ancient Israel and it's the problem of a unregenerate and uncircumcised heart. Modern Israel is an open demonstration of man's unregenrate heart. So if they have a future as a godly nation something else is going to have to break in and that will come through the Abrahamic covenant of faith. When God confirmed His covenant with Abraham (Gen 15) He put Abraham to sleep and walked between the pieces of the animals by Himself. Showing man will not be saved by his own efforts under the Abrahamic covenant but God will do it all and is the responsible party to bring it about. The conditions laid down in the Law were to put man to sleep so to speak regarding his own efforts. If people are looking for Israel to start walking with God and embracing Christ it won't be because they are meeting Mosaic conditions to ensure their permanence in the land. One of the issues I see in modern critics of Israel is that they contend Israel isn't meeting the conditions to stay in the land. How true but in a way these critics are holding Israel responsible to keep the law. No man can do this but modern Israel is expected to. Their redmeption will eventually be because of the UNCONDITIONAL grace of the Abrahamic covenant which will circumcise their heart and give them the inward moral ability (Christ in you the hope of glory) to obey God from the heart and keep His commandments. Then their captivity will be turned not just from their enemies but from the sin within them. The thing is the verses for their captivity and exile are taken as literal and the verses of a promised return to the same land with a new circumcised heart are spiritualized and allegorized to such a degree so as to lose their original meaning.

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docs,

You are absolutely right. As I was writing those verses in Deuteronomy, I realized they don't even apply to the land today, but wanted to point out that they were taken out of context and proudpapa also note that. Only through Jesus Christ, can anyone receive the blessing of Abraham and all the promises to Abraham, (who was "looking for a city whose builder and maker was God") are fulfilled in Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The question I think we are going to grapple with is whether God has two people and two covenants and two plans and some promises are found outside of Christ or does He just have one people and one covenant.

I will go ahead and start the new thread, as I know that Oracio is bit "covered over" right now.

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docs

You are absolutely right. As I was writing those verses in Deuteronomy, I realized they don't even apply to the land today, but wanted to point out that they were taken out of context and proudpapa also note that. Only through Jesus Christ, can anyone receive the blessing of Abraham and all the promises to Abraham, (who was "looking for a city whose builder and maker was God") are fulfilled in Christ.

Doc: Why wouldn't they apply to the land today since God is not finished with Israel yet?

30 When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice. (Deut 4:30)

5 Afterward the sons of Isarel will return and seek the Lord thier God and David thier king; and they will come trembling to the L;ord and His goodness in the last days. (Hosea 3:5)

Moses prophesied of tribulation for Israel that would continue even into the last days of the age. And Hosea said this distress would cause them to come trembling to the Lord in the last days. It hasn't happened yet so we can look for a future fulfillment.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Doc: Being in Christ would give a regathered remnant in the land the inward moral ability to obey God and assure possession of the land. What glory will God get if Israel is left dertitute and wandering in the nations? It could then be said God brought them out but couldn't bring them in. The passage of time has not altered God's plan one bit.

The question I think we are going to grapple with is whether God has two people and two covenants and two plans and some promises are found outside of Christ or does He just have one people and one covenant.

Well, I've already made clear I don't believe this nor a pre-trib rapture that is suppposedly to signal the end of God's dealings with one redeemed community of saints and beginning another dealing with another separate group of the redeemed. Nope! I believe God has ONE people and ONE covenant and ONE plan. It's not wrong to divide the natural seed of Abraham from the believing spiritual seed but is anathema to God's overall redemptive plan to divide the believing seed of Abraham into two peoples.

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Doc: Why wouldn't they apply to the land today since God is not finished with Israel yet?

We have to define what is meant by "God is not finished with Israel yet". So, I do believe Romans.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Gentiles did not come into the Church until about 15 years (Cornelius) after the birth. And there was the whole Acts 15 Council at Jerusalem controversy and then mutual understanding regarding the Gentiles.

God has been adding to the remnant of Israel in every century.

How about we go over to the other thread?

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There is a promise in the bible that rings out almost louder than all the others. And that is God's Promise to, in the End of Time, return the Jews to the very Homeland that they were drivenout of in 70 AD by the Romans. All through Scripture it sounds out loud and clear:

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be
left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from
Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." Isaiah 11:10-12

Thank you Lord Jesus that no one can stop your eternal plan for your people.

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Your colors are showing Julius21 and it ain't pretty.
You obvious and despicable defence of the haters of Israel
such as Steven Sizer as Rev has pointed out are inexcusable.

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"The Land of Canaan, renamed Israel by the Lord, was given by God to Abraham and his descendants as an everlasting possession.

In Genesis 12:7a, we read: "The Lord appeared to Abram and said, 'To your descendants I will give this land.'"

In Genesis 13:15, He repeated His promise when He said, "for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever." He said the same thing in Genesis 15:18, "To your descendants I have given this land."

Key #2: The gift of this Land to Abraham and his descendants was based on an unconditional covenant from God Himself.

Genesis 17:7-8 states: "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

The sign of that covenant for Abraham and his descendants was circumcision. Twice in this passage, God mentions the everlasting nature of this covenant. There are some today who say that this covenant was conditional, that it was based on Israel's faithfulness to God. The Bible teaches otherwise.

In Psalm 89:30-37, we read: "If his sons forsake My law, and do not walk in My judgments, if they violate My statues, and do not keep My commandments, then I will visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. But I will not break off My loving kindness from him, nor deal falsely in My faithfulness. My covenant I will not violate, nor will I alter the utterance of My lips. Once I have sworn by My holiness; I will not lie to David. His descendants shall endure forever like the moon, and the witness in the sky is faithful."

Jeremiah 31:35-36 declares: "This is what the Lord says, 'He who appoints the sun to shine by day, Who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar -- the Lord Almighty is His Name; Only if these ordinances vanish from My sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before Me.'"

We agree that God promised to judge His people if they disobeyed Him. That is true for all of us. However, we do not agree with those who say that Israel's disobedience would forfeit their gift of the land and their national status as a people. Deuteronomy 28 shows that God's pronouncement of blessing and cursing only affected the quality of life of the Israelites, which was conditional upon their faithfulness. However, the promise of the land was not based upon Israel's performance, but upon God's oath and character -- He will not lie.

Deuteronomy 30 shows that before they even entered the Promised Land, He knew they would violate His statutes and be evicted in a future day. Yet it also declares that He would bring them back into the land He had given their forefathers "

Excellent commentary

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by Notdarkyet on 2015/11/2 11:36:49

Your colors are showing Julius21 and it ain't pretty.
You obvious are despicable defence of the haters of Israel
such as Steven Sizer as Rev has pointed out are inexcusable.

Notdarkyet, you are now dark. I just need to inform you since we don't have an ignore button, that I regretfully have to ignore you now as you persist in accusing me of hating Jewish people. Maybe you do this because you have not been warned yet by the moderators to stop your hateful accusations. Whatever reason, I won't respond to anymore of your unChristian accusations.

I give Rev the benefit of the doubt as it looks like he is trying to dialogue. If you apologize for calling me a "hater of Israel", I will most gladly dialogue with you again, but until then, there is no point in talking with you. You should also apologize to others.

This thread is now closed from a virtual standpoint as we are discussing this with other people in another thread who are more generous of heart.

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with a HEAVY heart:

"Your colors are showing Julius21 and it ain't pretty.
You obvious and despicable defence of the haters of Israel
such as Steven Sizer as Rev has pointed out are inexcusable."

very very clearly.

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Neil, please don't take part in our other discussion, too if you also are joining the notyetdark in accusing brothers of hating other people.

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this will be the last time I address you, until you repent from your wickedness.

"But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said, "You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?"

REPENT FROM YOUR WICKEDNESS.

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I think you have been poisoned against me, but your decision is probably the best thing for you.

Welcome back to SI, by the way.

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Niel,

By the way, I only hold the same view as your Messianic brothers in Christ at Messianic Good News

I hold this same exact view. Do you regard them in the same way as you regard me and others on SI that hold this same view? There are many others here that hold this same view, but if I am to be the "punching bag", then that is ok with me.

Why don't you read some of these articles and see if you have any agreement with your brothers and if you don't, are they still not brothers? Will you still not be a brother to them?

http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/christian-zionism/

1) ABRAHAM OUR FATHER ”“ JERUSALEM OUR MOTHER
2) The Battle over Jerusalem
3) The Heavenly Jerusalem
4) From Exile to the Promised Land
5) IN DEFENCE OF THE GOSPEL ”“ a response to John Hagee’s "In Defense of Israel”
6) Jerusalem Countdown ”“ Fear or Faith?
7) The sins of the Fathers
8) "I will bless those who bless you”
9) How will Israel be delivered?
10) Who is my brother?
11) Unbelieving Israel ”“ Victim or rebel

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from Dr Ian Paisley

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

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by Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Th.M., Ph.D. November 15, 2008 ”“ Ariel Ministries

Regarding Messianic Good News false assumptions about Dispensationalism and Israel

It starts with:

Let me begin by simply defining the essence of Dispensationalism that would be held by Dispensationalists across the board. The essence of Dispensationalism is a consistent literal interpretation of Scripture, unless the text and context clearly indicates otherwise. It can be summarized in the simple Golden Rule of Interpretation as formulated by Dr. David L. Cooper: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicates clearly otherwise.” With that rule is a corollary principle: "A text apart from its context is a pretext”. Therefore, literal interpretation does not deny the existence of symbols, or the existence of figures of speech, which all languages have. But in all languages, including English, we take what is written to be literal unless there is something that clearly indicates otherwise.
1
Out of the first principle arises a second important principle: A consistent distinction between Israel and the Church. It denies the Church is "New Israel” or "Spiritual Israel” and denies that there is any passage in the New Testament where the term "Israel” is ever used of the Church. In fact, the term "Israel” appears exactly 73 times in the New Testament and not once does it refer to the Church. It will sometimes refer to all Jews in general and sometimes specifically to Jewish believers, but never to Gentile believers and never to the Church. Therefore, Dispensationalism affirms that what God promised to Israel He will keep to Israel and what He promised to the Church He will keep to the Church and the Church does not replace Israel in God’s covenantal program. Therefore, whatever promises have not been fulfilled up to the present time will be fulfilled in the future. Many assume that the unique mark of Dispensationalism is the Pretribulational Rapture, but that is only a result of the second principle. Furthermore, there are many Pretribulationalists that are not Dispensationalists such as the Bible Presbyterian Church denomination that is non-dispensational but is Pretribulational.
Thus Pretribulationalism is not unique to Dispensationalism as many seem to think.

and goes for 38 pages. Good stuff

http://www.ariel.org/news/news-mgn.pdf

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"The Nazis used Martin Luther's book, On the Jews and Their Lies (1543), to claim a moral righteousness for their ideology. Luther even went so far as to advocate the murder of those Jews who refused to convert to Christianity, writing that "we are at fault in not slaying them".[37]

Archbishop Robert Runcie has asserted that: "Without centuries of Christian antisemitism, Hitler's passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed...because for centuries Christians have held Jews collectively responsible for the death of Jesus. On Good Friday Jews, have in times past, cowered behind locked doors with fear of a Christian mob seeking 'revenge' for deicide. Without the poisoning of Christian minds through the centuries, the Holocaust is unthinkable."[1]:21 The dissident Catholic priest Hans Küng has written that "Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti-Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years' pre-history of 'Christian' anti-Judaism..."[2]:169

The document Dabru Emet was issued by over 220 rabbis and intellectuals from all branches of Judaism in 2000 as a statement about Jewish-Christian relations. This document states,


"Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities. But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism

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Yeah, Neil, No one here supports Hitler, or Luther in what he said. We are all glad he separated from Rome but you can't blame all Christians for Luther's view on Jews.

Here is a more balanced article from one of your Jewish brothers in Christ, Peter Cohen.

The Sunday Times recently published an editorial (17 June 2007) by the Chief Rabbi of South Africa, Warren Goldstein, entitled, "Look again: Israel is the victim, not the root of all evil”. In the sub-title to his article Goldstein writes, "Blaming the Middle Eastern conflict on the Jewish state is an error that could see many people unwittingly complicit in one of history’s worst injustices”. He poses the question, "What if, in siding against Israel, the world is siding against the only beacon of freedom and democracy in the Middle East, thereby endangering us all because the fate of the Jews is often a sign portending the future?”

The Scriptures says: "Fear the LORD and the King, my son, and do not join with the rebellious, for those two will send sudden destruction upon them, and who knows what calamities they can bring? These also are sayings of the wise: To show partiality in judging is not good: Whoever says to the guilty, "You are innocent””“ peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come upon them” (Proverbs 24:21-25).

The Holy Spirit convicts the whole world of guilt in regard to sin because men do not believe in Jesus the Messiah (John 16:8).

In his article, Goldstein seeks to justify modern Zionism on both religious and political grounds, suggesting that the world ought to side with Israel in order to support democracy in the Middle East and on the basis that God promised the land to Abraham and his descendants forever.

He suggests that Israel (with the one of the most powerful armies in the world), is the innocent and righteous victim in the Middle East. But even Ben Gurion acknowledged that declaring a Jewish State would provoke hostility: "We are the aggressors, and they defend themselves…Palestine is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”

Goldstein suggests that the Balfour declaration recognised, in his words, "the injustice of the destruction of ancient Israel by the Romans and the forced removal of the Jewish people.” However, Jesus warned his followers to flee from Jerusalem when they saw it being surrounded by the Roman armies because it was the days of vengeance for those who had failed to recognize the time of God’s coming to them (see Luke 19:44 and 21:20-24). In other words, for the disciples to have sided with the unbelieving Jews in AD 70 would have made them complicit in the rebellion of those who rejected and opposed the Messiah. The Lord said, "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill” and concerning this King, He also says, "You will rule over the nations with an iron sceptre” (Psalm 2:6;9). This means that God himself rejects democracy, (i.e. the power of the people), when it comes to electing his eternal King whom he has established upon his throne.

It is not a matter of taking sides. Both are in rebellion against God’s Anointed King. If the rebellion brought about God’s vengeance in 70 AD should we now expect God’s blessing on those who remain in rebellion? We stand on the authority of God’s word alone: We do not wage war as the world does… We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God… (2 Cor. 10:3)

Goldstein said, "…the fate of the Jews is often a sign portending the future”.

The fate of the unbelieving Jews of the generation that rejected Jesus Christ, which culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem and the prolonged exile of the Jews from the land in 70 AD, was indeed a sign portending the future judgment that will befall all who persist in their rebellion against God’s Anointed King! The apostle Paul said, "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism” (Romans 2:7-11).

Goldstein suggests that "the apartheid of the Middle East is really one directed against the Jews.” He ends his article with an appeal for peace between warring "brothers”, on the basis that both Jews and Arabs are children of Abraham. To be true children of Abrahamis to have the same faith as Abraham, faith in God’s promise of Redemption through the Messiah-Redeemer. The only way that these warring brothers will be reconciled to one another is when they are reconciled through Christ who has demolished apartheid i.e. (separation based on the flesh) ”“ For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility (Eph. 2:14).

All people, whether Jew or Gentile are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30), not of complicity in siding with or against Israel, but of complicity in history’s worst injustice, rebellion against God’s anointed King, for which every human being will be called to give account:

"Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him,[Jesus Christ]” (Psalm 2:10-12).

http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/unbelieving-israel-victim-or-rebel/

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Terrible article, full of distortions and lies and scripture twisting.
Par for the course.

For example he writes

The fate of the unbelieving Jews of the generation that rejected Jesus Christ, which culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem and the prolonged exile of the Jews from the land in 70 AD, was indeed a sign portending the future judgment that will befall all who persist in their rebellion against God’s Anointed King! The apostle Paul said, "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism” (Romans 2:7-11).

Not true, God has regathered the Jews from exile and will continue to fullfill his
eternal plan for them. They will be grafted in the body as Romans 11 clearly states

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Give us some specifics, Rev without taking them out of context.

By the way, I need to get some work done so I will have to join up with you later. I am glad you have decided to dialogue, Niel.

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RE: ///Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.///


But Many Did. Even to the point of giving up there life to stand against those atrocities, And many of them , nay, most of the : "ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism" such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer where considered theologicaly supersessionist"


"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

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by proudpapa on 2015/11/2 13:47:48

RE: ///Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.///


But Many Did. Even to the point of giving up there life to stand against those atrocities, And many of them , nay, most of the : "ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism" such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer where considered theologicaly supersessionist"


"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

I did not know that, PP.

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by Rev__Enue on 2015/11/2 13:41:00

Terrible article, full of distortions and lies and scripture twisting.
Par for the course.

For example he writes

The fate of the unbelieving Jews of the generation that rejected Jesus Christ, which culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem and the prolonged exile of the Jews from the land in 70 AD, was indeed a sign portending the future judgment that will befall all who persist in their rebellion against God’s Anointed King! The apostle Paul said, "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favouritism” (Romans 2:7-11).

This is Scriptural.


Not true, God has regathered the Jews from exile and will continue to fullfill his eternal plan for them. They will be grafted in the body as Romans 11 clearly states

Rev, how are Jewish people grafted into the Body? How were the Jews in the early church grafted in? How were Jews grafted in through the centuries before there was a nation of Israel in 1948? How are Jews still grafted in today?

Aren't they all grafted in, in the same way? Nothing really has changed since the 1st century as far as being grafted into Christ, right?

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from the "father" of the protestant church:

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly - and I myself was unaware of it - will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews’ doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses’ sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people’s obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.

But when they boast that Moses allowed or commanded them to exact usury from strangers, citing Deuteronomy 23:20 apart from this they cannot adduce as much as a letter in their support we must tell them that there are two classes of Jews or Israelites. The first comprises those whom Moses, in compliance with God’s command, led from Egypt into the land of Canaan. To them he issued his law, which they were to keep in that country and not beyond it, and then only until the advent of the Messiah. The other Jews are those of the emperor and not of Moses. These date back to the time of Pilate, the procurator of the land of Judah. For when the latter asked them before the judgment seat, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" they all said, "Crucify him, crucify him!" He said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" They shouted in reply, "We have no king but Caesar!" [Matt. 27:22; John 19:15]. God had not commanded of them such submission to the emperor; they gave it voluntarily.

But when the emperor demanded the obedience due him, they resisted and rebelled against him. Now they no longer wanted to be his subjects. Then he came and visited his subjects, gathered them in Jerusalem, and then scattered them throughout his entire empire, so that they were forced to obey him. From these the present remnant of Jews descended, of whom Moses knows nothing, nor they of him; for they do not deserve a single passage or verse of Moses. If they wish to apply Moses’ law again, they must first return to the land of Canaan, become Moses’ Jews, and keep his laws. There they may practice usury as much as strangers will endure from them. But since they are dwelling in and disobeying Moses in foreign countries under the emperor, they are bound to keep the emperor’s laws and refrain from the practice of usury until they become obedient to Moses. For Moses’ law has never passed a single step beyond the land of Canaan or beyond the people of Israel. Moses was not sent to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other nation with his law, but only to the people whom he led from Egypt into the land of Canaan, as he himself testifies frequently in Deuteronomy. They were expected to keep his commandments in the land which they would conquer beyond the Jordan.

Moreover, since priesthood, worship, government with which the greater part, indeed, almost all, of those laws of Moses deal have been at an end for over fourteen hundred years already, it is certain that Moses’ law also came to an end and lost its authority. Therefore the imperial laws must be applied to these imperial Jews. Their wish to be Mosaic Jews must not be indulged. In fact, no Jew has been that for over fourteen hundred years.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God’s anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

I hear it said that the Jews donate large sums of money and thus prove beneficial to governments. Yes, but where does this money come from? Not from their own possessions but from that of the lords and subjects whom they plunder and rob by means of usury. Thus the lords are taking from their subjects what they receive from the Jews, i.e., the subjects are obliged to pay additional taxes and let themselves be ground into the dust for the Jews, so that they may remain in the country, lie boldly and freely, blaspheme, curse, and steal. Shouldn’t the impious Jews laugh up their sleeves because we let them make such fools of us and because we spend our money to enable them to remain in the country and to practice every malice? Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they suck the marrow from our bones. If it is right for a servant to give his master or for a guest to give his host ten florins annually and, in return, to steal one thousand florins from him, then the servant or the guest will very quickly and easily get rich and the master or the host will soon become a beggar.

And even if the Jews could give the government such sums of money from their own property, which is not possible, and thereby buy protection from us, and the privilege publicly and freely to slander, blaspheme, villify, and curse our Lord Jesus Christ so shamefully in their synagogues, and in addition to wish us every misfortune, namely, that we might all be stabbed to death and perish with our Haman, emperor, princes, lords, wife, and children -- this would really be selling Christ our Lord, the whole of Christendom together with the whole empire, and ourselves, with wife and children, cheaply and shamefully. What a great saint the traitor Judas would be in comparison with us! Indeed, if each Jew, as many as there are of them, could give one hundred thousand florins annually, we should nevertheless not yield them for this the right so freely to malign, curse, defame, impoverish by usury a single Christian. That would still be far too cheap a price. How much more intolerable is it that we permit the Jews to purchase with our money such license to slander and curse the whole Christ and all of us and, furthermore, reward them for this with riches and make them our lords, while they ridicule us and gloat in their malice. That would prove a delightful spectacle for the devil and his angels, over which they could secretly grin like a sow grins at her litter, but which would indeed merit God’s great wrath.

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews. Lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, the blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, his dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. Do not aid and abet them in acquiring your money or your subjects’ money and property by means of usury. We have enough sin of our own without this, dating back to the papacy, and we add to it daily with our ingratitude and our contempt of God’s word and all his grace; so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews and over and above it all, to pay them for it with money and property. Let us consider that we are now daily struggling with the Turks, which surely calls for a lessening of our sins and a reformation of our life. With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.

And you, my dear gentlemen and friends who are pastors and preachers, I wish to remind very faithfully of your official duty, so that you too may warn your parishioners concerning their eternal harm, as you know how to do, namely, that they be on their guard against the Jews and avoid them so far as possible. They should not curse them or harm their persons, however. For the Jews have cursed and harmed themselves more than enough by cursing the Man Jesus of Nazareth, Mary’s son, which they unfortunately have been doing for over fourteen hundred years. Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not. Let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.

When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to your self: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods. Perhaps he has spat on the ground many times this very day over the name of Jesus, as is their custom, so that the spittle still clings to his mouth and beard, if he had a chance to spit. If I were to eat, drink or talk with such a devilish mouth, I would eat or drink myself full of devils by the dish or cupful just as I surely make myself a cohort of all the devils that dwell in the Jews and that deride the precious blood of Christ. May God preserve me from this!

We cannot help it that they do not share our belief. It is impossible to force anyone to believe. However. we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering. cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts, especially since they boast so proudly and despicably when we do help and serve them that God has ordained them as lords and us as servants. For instance, when a Christian kindles their fire for them on a Sabbath, or cooks for them in an inn whatever they want, they curse and defame and revile us for it, supposing this to be something praiseworthy, and yet they live on our wealth, which they have stolen from us. Such a desperate, thoroughly evil poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

Especially you pastors who have Jews living in your midst, persist in reminding your lords and rulers to be mindful of their office and of their obligation before God to force the Jews to work, to forbid usury, and to check their blasphemy and cursing. For if they punish thievery, robbery, murder, blasphemy, and other vices among us Christians, why should the devilish Jews be scot-free to commit their crimes among us and against us? We suffer more from them than the Italians do from the Spaniards, who plunder the host’s kitchen, cellar, chest, and purse, and, in addition, curse him and threaten him with death. Thus the Jews, our guests, also treat us; for we are their hosts. They rob and fleece us and hang about our necks, these lazy weaklings and indolent bellies; they swill and feast, enjoy good times in our homes, and by way of reward they curse our Lord Christ, our churches, our princes, and all of us, threatening us and unceasingly wishing us death and every evil. Just ponder this: How does it happen that we poor Christians nourish and enrich such an idle and lazy people, such a useless, evil pernicious people, such blasphemous enemies of God, receiving nothing in return but their curses and defamation and every misfortune they may inflict on us or wish us? Indeed, we are as blind and unfeeling clods in this respect as are the Jews in their unbelief, to suffer such great tyranny from these vicious weaklings, and not perceive and sense that they are our lords, yes, our mad tyrants, and that we are their captives and subjects. Meanwhile they wail that they are our captives, and at the same time mock us -- as though we had to take this from them!

But if the authorities are reluctant to use force and restrain the Jews’ devilish wantonness, the latter should, as we said, be expelled from the country and be told to return to their land and their possessions in Jerusalem, where they may lie, curse, blaspheme, defame, murder, steal, rob, practice usury, mock, and indulge in all those infamous abominations which they practice among us, and leave us our government, our country, our life, and our property, much more leave our Lord the Messiah, our faith, and our church undefiled and uncontaminated with their devilish tyranny and malice. Any privileges that they may plead shall not help them; for no one can grant privileges for practicing such abominations. These cancel and abrogate all privileges.

If you pastors and preachers have followed my example and have faithfully issued such warnings, but neither prince nor subject will do anything about it, let us follow the advice of Christ (Matthew 10:14) and shake the dust from our shoes, and say, "We are innocent of your blood." For I observe and have often experienced how indulgent the perverted world is when it should be strict, and, conversely, how harsh it is when it should be merciful. Such was the case with King Ahab, as we find recorded in I Kings 20. That is the way the prince of this world reigns. I suppose that the princes will now wish to show mercy to the Jews, the bloodthirsty foes of our Christian and human name, in order to earn heaven thereby. But that the Jews enmesh us, harass us, torment and distress us poor Christians in every way with the above mentioned devilish and detestable deeds, this they want us to tolerate, and this is a good Christian deed, especially if there is any money involved (which they have filched and stolen from us).

What are we poor preachers to do meanwhile? In the first place, we will believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is truthful when he declares of the Jews who did not accept but crucified him, "You are a brood of vipers and children of the devil [cf. Matt. 12:34]. This is a judgment in which his forerunner John the Baptist concurred, although these people were his kin. Now our authorities and all such merciful saints as wish the Jews well will at least have to let us believe our Lord Jesus Christ, who, I am sure, has a more intimate knowledge of all hearts than do those compassionate saints. He knows that these Jews are a brood of vipers and children of the devil, that is, people who will accord us the same benefits as does their father, the devil, and by now we Christians should have learned from Scripture as well as experience just how much he wishes us well.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnaping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason I should like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils. Nor do the Jews treat any others as they do us Christians. That is what I had in mind when I said earlier that, next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter and feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified, and cursed by them, and to suffer every evil at their hands -- these venomous serpents and devil’s children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord and of us all. And if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind and worship this holy object. Then let him boast of his mercy, then let him boast that he has strengthened the devil and his brood for further blaspheming our dear Lord and the precious blood with which we Christians are redeemed. Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews in the eternal fire of hell!

That is speaking coarsely about the coarse cursing of the Jews. Others write much about this, and the Jews know very well that it is cursing, since they curse and blaspheme consciously. Let us also speak more subtly and, as Christians, more spiritually about this. Thus our Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew 10:40, "He who receives me receives him who sent me." And in Luke 10:16, "He who rejects you rejects me. And he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." And in John 15:23, "He who hates me hates my father also. In John 5:23, "That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him," etc.

These are, God be praised, clear and plain words, declaring that all that is done to the honor or to the dishonor of the Son is surely also done to the honor or to the dishonor of God the Father himself. We Christians cannot have or countenance any doubt of this. Whoever denies, defames, and curses Jesus of Nazareth, the Virgin Mary’s Son, also denies, defames, and curses God the Father himself, who created heaven and earth. But that is what the Jews do, etc.

And if you say that the Jews do not believe or know this since they do not accept the New Testament, I reply that the Jews may know or believe this or that; we Christians, however, know that they publicly blaspheme and curse God the Father when they blaspheme and curse this Jesus. Tell me, what are we going to answer God if he takes us to account now or on the day of judgment, saying: "Listen, you are a Christian. You are aware of the fact that the Jews openly blasphemed and cursed my Son and Me, you gave them opportunity for it, you protected and shielded them so that they could engage in this without hindrance or punishment in your country, city, and house." Tell me: What will we answer to this?

Of course, we accord anyone the right not to believe omissive et privatim ["by neglect and privately’’]; this we leave to every one’s conscience. But to parade such unbelief so freely in churches and before our very noses, eyes, and ears, to boast of it, to sing it, teach it, and defend it, to revile and curse the true faith, and in this way lure others to them and hinder our people_that is a far, far different story. And this is not changed by the fact that the Jews do not believe the New Testament, that they are unacquainted with it, and that they pay it no heed. The fact remains that we are acquainted with it and that we cannot acquiesce in having the Jews revile and curse it in our hearing. To witness this and keep silent is tantamount to doing it ourselves. Thus the accursed Jews encumber us with their diabolical, blasphemous, and horrible sins in our own country."

"

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sermonindex

He's not my father. I only have one Father. God is the Father of the Church!

1Co_1:2 UNTO TO THE CHURCH OF GOD, which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Neil, you should stop the immature, hateful, guilt by association game.

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" I am glad you have decided to dialogue, Niel. "

and then this, when I post up what Martin Luther wrote that engendered MILLIONS of deaths of Jews:

"Neil, you should stop the immature, hateful, guilt by association game. "

the only "dialogue" I have with you is REPENT FROM YOUR WICKEDNESS.

by weeks end, either you or I will be gone from this forum.

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What wickedness do you want me to repent from?

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Neil

Please take the advise you gave me, its just not worth the aggravation
These people are not convinced by anyone, not even God himself
can help them because they they do not want to know the truth but to
engage in endless debate.

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proudpapa

RE:///from the "father" of the protestant church:///

I believe if you would search the archives you will find I for one have always spoken strongly against Luther and for two reasons, the one is this one and the other was for his hatred toward the anabaptist.

I attend an Anabaptist fellowship, not that I much agree with them on anything either : just makeing a point that I am not a big fan of Luther, certaintly not in his later years anyhow.


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MrBillPro

Not that it matters, because this stuff of late has caught the whole forum on fire with hate, but I thought I might post some scriptures anyway.

Ecclesiastes 10:12
Words from the mouth of the wise are gracious, but fools are consumed by their own lips.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Romans 14:19
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Romans 15:2
Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up.

Ephesians 5:4
Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.

Colossians 3:8
But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.

Colossians 4:6
Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

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proudpapa

RE: ///by Julius21 on 2015/11/2 14:01:54

by proudpapa on 2015/11/2 13:47:48

RE: ///Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.///


But Many Did. Even to the point of giving up there life to stand against those atrocities, And many of them , nay, most of the : "ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism" such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer where considered theologicaly supersessionist"


"Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God. Despite his outspoken defense of victims of Nazi persecution, Bonhoeffer still maintained, on a religious level, that the "Jewish question" would ultimately be solved through Jewish conversion to Christianity. The Church strongly advocated this view, as did the ecumenical movements most responsible for aiding Jewish refugees fleeing Nazism."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html


I did not know that, PP. ////


It is the same testimoney that Sister Diane gave in the other thread concerning her relatives :


She wrote :

"My relatives were leaders in the underground movement in Holland during WW2 and saved the lives of many Jews ”“ at great risk and cost. They were staunch Reformers, and embraced "Replacement Theology”. They saw many miracles of God during those dark days.

Any theology can become misused and distorted! Replacement theology need not be divisive if held in light the teachings in Ephesians 2 about God’s "ONE NEW MAN”. Everyone is replaced!!!! It’s the new life in Christ...."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=55616&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

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sermonindex

Bill, I appreciate you and the scriptures you offer. I just want to point out that you also just made a general statement regarding hate without being specific. We have been specific as to who has been calling people jew-haters, a reprehensible term. Just because they call us that does not mean we are. Surely, you understand that. I hope you don't believe we are. They seek to link us up with Luther and Hitler and the Crusades.

We have asked over and over for those types of attacks to stop and even Greg has asked.

Now, Neil is jumping in and pronouncing us wicked and demanding that we repent of our wickedness. I just asked, "what wickedness do you want me to repent of", and I have not looked yet, but did not see a reply, yet.

Bill, the moderators are not censuring our discussion of the scriptures, and the attacks from brethren have to be confronted in a spirit of humility and not swept under the rug. You can help by supporting freedom to discuss difficult bible passages and theology and asking those who are attacking with ad hominem and accusations to stop.

We actually, desperately need the moderator's help to stop these attacks.

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Carmine,
i'm not aggravated, angry, or mad at all, i'm just doing some forthtelling.

Any who deny that the State of Israel is not God ordained, nor God beloved, is anti Christ, plain and simple.

In 1947, Israel signed the partition plan, the arabs did not. If one studies the partition map, and has been raised in the military, such as I, IF the arabs signed the partition plan, when Israel declared independency on 15 May 1948, it would have been VERY hard to defend the areas given to the Jewish people.

All of the four wars, 1948-49, 56, 67, and 1972, Israel was VASTLY outnumbered, but vanquished all frontline arab states with stunning totality, and people actually believe that is only by the strength of their arms, their flesh?

all thru the early years to ENORMOUS cost, Israel ingathered all the Jews who lived in arab lands under great reproach, but the arabs lift not a hand to help what are called the Palestinians, because they WANT them in the camps as optic to the world, just as hamas fires rockets into Israel from underneath their own grandmothers windows, knowing full and well, the IAF WILL respond, so the world can gaze at the optic of their dead grandmothers.

Israel is the only nation who's VERY EXISTENCE is called into question 24/7/365....and when ingrafted vines call into question God's love and mercy for the tribe of my flesh, and the LEGITIMACY of Israel, I call into question whether they ARE really ingrafted vines....

the arabs have grown so limp, that they are reduced to stabbing Israeli Jews within Israel....today an 80 year old women and I believe 3 others were stabbed to death...in Israel.

but men here?...using keyboards?....i'm not mad, i'm grieved, I came to tarry and pray for Revival in North America, not this.....this all smells like satanic diversion, and I now have to proclaim it for what it is.....diversionary agenda......and that's just wickedness. Of course, the devil wouldn't WANT the saints weeping that the dry and thirsty grounds have no water, praying and pleading to come down in power, and heal the land in revival. God love you, neil

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Your pretty clever but God sees through you.
You remind me of an angel of light
Your venom is cleverly disguised as some brethren have pointed out. If you repent the Lord will forgive you

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notdarkyet, if I am your enemy and attacking the true church, where is your love?

How would you guys have treated Saul of Tarsus before he was grafted into the "commonwealth of Israel"?

Thanks, PP. I read Diane's post, but did not have time to read her link. I will now.

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Neil

Excellent post, thank you for the insight and especially the reminder that
now is the time to seek the Lord while he may be found.

God bless you

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MrBillPro

Julius, I used hate I guess for lack of a better word. I'm am helping the discussion here, I posted some scriptures to throw a little water on the fire, but as always, the ones that are really caught up in the battle, they will just overlook them, only thing that's relevant is their agenda. Sorry for the interruption, carry on soldiers!

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sermonindex

Thank you, Bill. There are some extremely important things that need to come out regarding the scriptures, Even though Neil, notdarkyet and Revenue are only attacking me, there are others that view the same scriptures in the same way.

Why do you think they are trying to shut down the conversation? Is there something they don't want others to see revealed? No one is being hateful but that is their excuse for shutting down the effort to "rightly divide the word", by many of us. Either we are hateful or have an agenda. Right now, our only agenda is trying to discuss the scriptures.

Bill, God did not sanction the Crusades or make modern day Crusaders to go around "killing" those who disagree with them. But, we have crusaders who are doing just that in trying to silence a conversation about the Scriptures.

They don't want to be silenced, but they don't bat an eye in silencing others.

They haven't even told me what they want me to repent from.


S
sermonindex

Saints,

I am going to be honest that the demonic thing is division amongst the body of Christ. We must seek to have unity with brothers even if we do not fully understand or agree with the current state of Israel. I believe we should be in support and pray for jewish people everywhere and that God will have a great end times revival amongst them where Yeshua (Jesus) will be glorified amongst them.

What is not right is to speak evil, use wrong words against other brethren who have been bought by the blood of Jesus. May God give us grace towards each other and allow brethren to learn and ask questions.

S
sermonindex

Thank you, Greg.

My heart is for the Jewish and Gentile people and I will treat my brethren with love. We don't want this to be about personalities as we discuss the scriptures and "learn and ask questions" as you put it so well.

O
Oracio

Any who deny that the State of Israel is not God ordained, nor God beloved, is anti Christ, plain and simple.

That’s the type of sentiment I was referring to earlier; calling others anti-Christ and Jew haters for disagreeing on a non-salvific theological issue among Christians. This is indeed grieving.

Israel is the only nation who's VERY EXISTENCE is called into question 24/7/365....and when ingrafted vines call into question God's love and mercy for the tribe of my flesh, and the LEGITIMACY of Israel,

No one here has called into question God’s love and mercy for ethnic Jews or their legitimacy to exist. To the contrary we have made it crystal clear that we believe God loves every unsaved ethnic Jew and desires their salvation and not their destruction. We condemn that article by Luther if those are really his words. If Luther really wrote that I fear for him but I will let God be the judge of whether or not he was a true believer when he wrote that. That said, simply because Luther happened to hold to the same theological view on Israel which the Christian Church unanimously held for 1800 years doesn’t mean every Christian felt as Luther did toward Jews. As has been pointed out, there have been countless examples of Christians showing their deep love for Jewish people throughout history.

Our contention is that God loves Gentiles just as much and desires their salvation as well. God’s Word makes this crystal clear in so many places. Do you not believe the Word of God? Why do you feel so strongly that your race is being attacked here simply because we believe in only one New Man in Christ made up of Jew and Gentile as Eph. 2 declares? Why do you feel that you absolutely must have a superior status over Gentile Christians in order for you to be able to fellowship with them? Why do you demand that Neil? I believe that is something you will have to take before the Lord because it’s a matter of the heart?

I call into question whether they ARE really ingrafted vines....

Again, you should really consider seriously whether you should call into question the salvation of the multitudes of Christians who disagree with your view on Israel. Again, please consider that your view did not exist among Christians for 1800 years of church history.

this all smells like satanic diversion, and I now have to proclaim it for what it is.....diversionary agenda......and that's just wickedness. Of course, the devil wouldn't WANT the saints weeping that the dry and thirsty grounds have no water, praying and pleading to come down in power, and heal the land in revival. God love you, neil

Neil, if you really want revival it starts with personal revival and I know you will agree. That means we must get rid of condemning to hell brethren we disagree with on non-essential matters.

Sincerely,
Oracio

O
Oracio

And just to be clear, my desire, as I'm sure is the case with Julius and others, is that we would indeed see a massive awakening of ethnic Jews, that multitudes of them would come to know our Messiah. God is more than able to do something like that just as much as He is able to pour out His Spirit upon the Gentile nations. May we indeed stand together as we pray for revival among all nations.

C
crusader

Hi All

i just want to say that it is good to wrestle over subjects, but it is important to maintain the objective in the heat of the battle especially when we are using principles that are related to God as this is where Satan wants to work the most to stop truth rising up.

I watch many debates between Christianity vs Atheism not because of the content but how the Christians hold themselves during the debate. in nearly every debate i have seen the Atheist reverts to personalizing the attack by using slander, mocking and lots of sarcasm. People watching the debate can see these fruits very strongly. The Great christian debaters always stay on the topic, refraining from being drawn in the flesh. The minute they are drawn into the flesh they no longer represent God but themselves.

One creationist has one of the highest IQ,s i have seen and his material is breath taking unfortunately due to his sarcastic replies to his opponents, he only adds to the anger of the atheist crowd and debater rather then advance the gospel through a loving aproach.


I see this happening on Sermon index between Christians on topics. Sometimes people are able to bring it back to the objective and maintain a Christ in their objectives, other times Sermon index has to lock the thread.

On a personal level If you are unable to maintain Christ in your objective then you need to stay away from the topic as you will only bring the topic poison. it is important at this point to attend your wounds before Christ, bring it to your brother and sister if you cant then pride has overcome you.

this isn't directed at anyone in particular but it is an understanding or a guide line for any topic discussed. being from a fiery, prideful past myself, i have felt the sting of this many times and only found peace and change when bringing it to Christ as well as asking for forgiveness for my reaction.

This is a good topic to wrestle with as long as the Holy spirit is in the responses. With Complete Love in Christ

T
TMK

quote: "They haven't even told me what they want me to repent from."

Bottom line, from disagreeing with their viewpoint.

The amount of vitriol and viciousness on these threads is startling.

Remember the old saying about legal debate; if the facts are on your side argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. If neither is on your side, pound the table.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet, Act III, Scene II. The bard had a lot of insight.

S
sermonindex

I have a Jewish surname (which i don't disclose here)
I never felt any hatred towards my ancestors on this thread.

A few important scriptures
There is only one true "Ekklesia" , the one that Jesus Himself builds on the "Rock" which is Peter.
The Apostels laid the foundation.
There is no "Protestant " Ekklesia and Luther was not an Apostel.

As I tried to point out in the other thread, Cain and Abel were both "religious " But Cain killed because his heart was evil , he was not truly born again by the Spirit of God. This is the whole point. We can't blame a "theology " for the bad things that happened.
Adam and Eve made excuses after they sinned and we know the result

Our priority is to "seek first the Kingdom of God "
" go into All the world and make disciples "

Paul wrote : And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified 1 Corinthians 2:2

Jesus died for us, we belong to Him, and "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another"
It might be time to stop and pray and seek the Lord
He is worthy

S
SHMILY

Greetings brethren

I just have a couple of questions.

1. Why have there been at least 12 threads ~ if I have counted right ~ started on this topic in the last week?

Most have multiple long-winded posts that say the same thing over and over. Most are the writings of men with snips of the Word.

2. Should we not be searching the Word and allowing the Spirit to teach and quicken us with His truth ~ not men's?

"God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not fulfill it."
-Num 23:19 ESV

I do not know how God will do what He has said, but I know He will ~ in His time, in His way.

3. How does this honor Christ?

4. How do these promote "genuine Biblical revival" ~ the stated purpose of SI?

"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law for they are unprofitable and worthless." - Titus 3:9 ESV

Should we not rather redeem the time praying with Brothers Tim and Neil and others for God to move in "genuine Biblical revival"? Should we not spend the time in His Word and on our faces before it is too late?

I wish you could hear my voice. I am not angry or pointing my finger. I am saddened.

I hope this is clear as I have tried to shorten my thoughts. Please know, should you choose to respond, this will be my only post on the subject.
Mary

S
sermonindex

Mary

As brother Neil has stated they have an agenda. I am sorry that I got involved in this nonsense.

God Bless you

T
TMK

If anything has been revealed by all these discussions is that there is no doubt that the primary persecution against Christians will be from other Christians with whom they disagree.

It will occur between those who have differing viewpoints (like in this discussion) or between all-in and lukewarm believers.

If anyone doubts that Christians could act like that, and even become violent, look at some of the vitriol on these threads. They absolutely can and will.

What exactly the breaking point/event will be for outright violence between brothers to erupt is unclear, but it is on the near horizon.

P
proudpapa

RE: ///As brother Neil has stated they have an agenda. I am sorry that I got involved in this nonsense///

That is misconstruing the facts.

The fact is that Docs started the thread : "A sincere question about the one new man and covenants made with Israel" https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=55556&forum=36&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=1

He specifically asked : "Comments welcome but if you want to be contentious please give it a rest and just forego. Sound, reasoned and well thought out replies are welcome."

Some of his His questions still have me thinking and searching the Scriptures,
His conduct has been outstanding through out all of these discussions. If we all could mature to the level that he has demonstrated in these discussions, we could both learn from each other as well as understand each other. and we all could sleep well at night.

from that thread heydave posted : Covenant and controversy - The great rage
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=55577&forum=35&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=1

I for one can not download youtube so Julius gave a rather lengthy critical review of that movie :
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=55585&forum=35

Many new threads from those few started springing up from several different individuals and from all sides of the topic.


O
Oracio

Exactly, well said proudpapa, I was thinking the same thing.

S
sermonindex

"The fact is that Docs started the thread"

Not so, they started numerous threads recently all with the same agenda.
Reduce Israel to a pariah state, eliminate God's eternal covenant with them
and variations of the same anti-semitic thrust. All in the name of "christian"
religion.

M
MrBillPro

Todd and Mary, I totally agree with you. I have been here for 10 years and have never seen the mods let things get this out of hand, they usually shut it down. My only guess is Greg is learning something from this, or has a dog in the fight, you got me. And yes! why so many threads? talk about an agenda, these kind of actions is helping no one, why? they can't see the forest for the trees. Some are so wrapped up in this, if the forum had a closing time at night, some would have withdraws. :-)

S
sermonindex

MrBillPro

I have set up a program to auto post at various times during the night.

O
Oracio

Rev_enue, I challenge you to find a recent thread on the topic of Israel that predates docs' thread. You won't find it, guaranteed.

O
Oracio

I will say I agree that probably too many threads on the same topic were started all at the same time, I'll give you that. But they were from both sides.

M
MrBillPro

Carmine, see that's what we need here, a little humor to break up this thread that's been going south for a while.

S
sermonindex

Oraclo

True enough, lets just leave Israel with the Lord and watch Him as he furthers his perfect plan for them and us.

P
proudpapa

Rev__Enue wrote : ////True enough, lets just leave Israel with the Lord and watch Him as he furthers his perfect plan for them and us. ////

Amen!!

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

O
Oracio

4. How do these promote "genuine Biblical revival" ~ the stated purpose of SI?

"But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law for they are unprofitable and worthless." - Titus 3:9 ESV

Should we not rather redeem the time praying with Brothers Tim and Neil and others for God to move in "genuine Biblical revival"? Should we not spend the time in His Word and on our faces before it is too late?

The same could be asked regarding other topics that can get heated if we are not careful, topics such as Pre-trib vs Post-trib, divorce and remarriage, head coverings, etc. From what I've seen and understood, this is a discussion forum where Christians can discuss different topics even if they don't see eye to eye on them. If this discussion forum is only about the topic of revival, why do we see so many threads allowed on so many other topics?

Also, from what I see, you side with Neil in this thread despite the fact that he has called us anti-Christ and questioned our salvation for disagreeing on this non-essential topic. How can we take you serious when you are not willing to admit that that was totally uncalled for on his part?

T
TMK

Honestly though, this may be one of those topics that should not be discussed, like Calvinism etc. that always devolve.

It seems like all that can be said on this topic has been said, and no one appears to be changing their mind, so what's the use.

I would encourage the moderators to either not allow discussions on this topic, or keep them on a very tight leash.

It's a pretty good sign that things are going badly when one side's primary argument is that the other side are Jew-haters.

D
docs

Oracio wrote,
|
"And just to be clear, my desire, as I'm sure is the case with Julius and others, is that we would indeed see a massive awakening of ethnic Jews, that multitudes of them would come to know our Messiah. God is more than able to do something like that just as much as He is able to pour out His Spirit upon the Gentile nations. May we indeed stand together as we pray for revival among all nations."

Julius wrote,

"My heart is for the Jewish and Gentile people and I will treat my brethren with love. We don't want this to be about personalities as we discuss the scriptures and "learn and ask questions" as you put it so well."

Proudpapa has said similiar things I just can't find them right now. But they're there. I affirm these statements as coming from their hearts and honest expressions. Disagreements, even major diagreements on this, are not the same as anti-semitism.

Learning and asking questions and sharing insights is our goal and as the moderator stated an be done in edification and respect if we try. We've just got to want to.

Blessings brothers and to all who have been civil.

M
MrBillPro

TMK...It seems like all that can be said on this topic has been said, and no one appears to be changing their mind, so what's the use.

Ding! Ding! we have a winner! Todd, you are so right, one of the biggest misconceptions of believers is, they think they can change people. People cannot change people, only the person themselves can change themselves, God can also change people.

Only God can change people, so you are not and cannot be responsible for changing them. You are accountable to God solely for your own deeds, and to do your part in living at peace with others.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

H
Heydave

Oracio,

I have not posted on here for a couple of days as I do not want to perpetuate this discussion that was going nowhere. However I just want to clarify something regarding accusations, so this is my last post on this.

You have to accept that there were many things written by both sides of this argument that were uncalled for. You make it sound like it was all one sided.

PP correctly stated that there were two original topics posted. First by Docs and the one I posted on the film about anti-Semitism. It was on this one that we saw accusations being posted right from the start. I just posted the link with no real comment and was content to leave it for folk to watch and judge themselves. Immediately Julius posted a provocative reply, before even watching the film. He accused Michael Brown of being caught in a cult! He then went on to post incessantly, before even watching the film out and afterward making more accusations.
Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist, Hebrew Roots Movement and were even responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in the wars between Israel and the arabs. The makers of the film were also accused of having a sinister agenda. He even went on to say it would have been better if Israel had never become a nation in 1948 and the Jews had stayed where they were.

If you go back and read these threads from the beginning you can easily see and verify these things and see how even with these accusations right at the beginning the responses to Julius were measured and gracious. However he persisted in posting more and more until he got the response he did. Then later on we get different types of posts, claiming he actually supports Israel having a homeland and has a heart for the Jews, etc, etc. So he now becomes the victim and everyone against him the villains, just like Docs posted selected quotes above, but forgot the ones I have highlighted. Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!

It will be seen as obvious to many who was the main contributor and incessant poster on this topic and fanned the flames with uncalled for accusations. If there is a need for repentance apology it needs to start there.

S
sermonindex

as you laud and bless your brothers for their civility, I;m going to quote Julius from the fourth post he wrote in this thread, I will not comment on these quotes, but instead ask that when you read these comments, maybe lense them thru the heart of a Jew who follows Messiah Jesus, and ask yourself, might this man find these comments, offensive, and just plain wrong?

Julius wrote:

"Sometimes I wonder if the UN and Britain did a grave disservice to the Jewish people and should have left well enough alone and let the Jewish people remain as "strangers and pilgrims" in this world. I wonder if dispersed amongst all the countries as they were, if many more of them would have found the Lord. We may have really hurt them thinking we were helping them. Of course, I don't know what the UN's motive was, but it is rarely a good one.

Orthodox Jews are against Zionism, which I find very interesting. My question, is why didn't the UN and Britain respect the wishes of the religious Jews and instead they went ahead and set up a secular nation? How can Orthodox Jews be anti-semitic? You would think they know better than the godless UN or godless Britain. Do you think Religious Jews in Israel are traitorous? How could religious Jews be traitorous to a secular nation?

Neturei Karta oppose the so-called "State of Israel" not because it operates secularly, but because the entire concept of a sovereign Jewish state is contrary to Jewish Law. Is a sovereign Jewish State contrary to Christian law? We don't have Christian Law, we just have Christ. So, why did Britain butt in against the desires of the religious Jews living in Palestine prior to 1948? These are earnest questions, I don't know why."

i'm have real work to attend to on my ranch, and I don't have the RAM to discuss how offensive even just terming Israel as "so-called" is to me. Yes David, this Jew has a ranch, and I am a crack marksman, iron sight, not scope, and yes, before dawn, I am in the Word, and in prayer everyday, and yes, I can process a steer in a day, by myself, I can takedown a shagbark hickory by myself, biscuit it up, and split it for firewood before the sun goes down, I could tell you how as a 7 year old entering the synagogue for Hebrew and Torah instructions, my heart leapt because God has always been SO REAL to me, how I longed to Aliyah to Israel and serve my entire life in Aman, which is the mil-intel wing of the IDF, but first graduated from the Defense Language Institute at 18 years old and three months in the USN, which I believe I am the youngest ever to do so, Korean language and be entrusted that day with a top secret/codeword clearance, sent to Korea to do serve the nation of MY BIRTH, did my four years , got out, but did not Aliyah in 82, because I felt uncomfortable about "Operation Litani", but in 88, with my sons mother we were three weeks from moving to Kibbutz Degania, only to be offered a job here, most people only dream of, and took that easy way, and that money, because all my childhood I was poor? I don't feel good about that at all, because I knew I was one of the men to be on the wall, defending Ertez Y'isroel. i'm 55, and probably one of 6 Jews in the entire world who can read write and speak Korean,(and be vetted for a high level clearance) and if in Israel I would be looking at 27 years in IDF mil-intel, and mandatory uniform retirement......I would tell you the whole story, but in authenticity, men who call Israel, "so-called", I don't regard as "brothers", I regard as quite the opposite. in short, none of you, if face to face, would dare even speak about Israel in such a manner, because its life or death, and I love Jesus, my brothers and sisters, who DO KNOW ME, know that is true, but also in my blood beats the heart of King David, poet and warrior.

My brothers and sisters here WHO DO KNOW ME, I love with passion, and intensity, and would eagerly take their "bullet" and they know that.

You four?....you're not my brothers, because you parrot EXACTLY what these "jihadi's" rant IMPOTENTLY about.

they all should be quaking in their boots right now, because Israel has suddenly gone VERY quiet.....especially the Iranians....they will never know when its coming.

here, here is what the burden Israel's 18 to 20 year olds have to shoulder, so their grandmothers can be safe from hate filled muslims: (btw, their training commander, Lt. Eden is all of 20 years old, watch him, and ask , could an American 20 year old be entrusted with the responsibility of 40 eighteen to nineteen year olds?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0UX_6C8fM

P
proudpapa

RE: ///Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist...///

When I type in the word Christian Zionism this is the definition that pops up at the front of the page, I believe it is from wikapedia :

"Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy. The term began to be used in the mid-20th century, superseding Christian Restorationism."

S
sermonindex

Well said Dave

The guy kept quoting the anti- Jewish rev sizer over and over again in a favourable light,
He fanned the flames to get the response that he did. Overboard yes to some degree but why give the haters of the Jewish people more to work with?
Do they not have enough excuses already?

S
sermonindex

with this disdain for Israel, they share the same "burden" as those left wing atheists that populate this nations "progressive" universities, in fact should these men even ATTEMPT to preach Christ on these campuses? oh my...this clip is entitled "Crossing the Line: The New Face of Anti-Semitism on Campus"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNDCcsH_wgU

O
Oracio

There are always two or more sides to every issue or topic, whether it be theological, political or other.

Sometimes when we are so used to hearing, understanding and assenting to a certain perspective we can think that any other contrary perspective is anathema (I’m referring to non-essentials). For example, we see this happening sometimes when it comes to the issue of Calvinism vs Arminianism. Some get so used to their perspective that when they come across others who disagree they start questioning their salvation. This shouldn’t be.

Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!

That is not true. If you read my statement carefully I simply meant to say it wouldn’t surprise me if it was true since I do not trust that government along with every other earthly government. My thought simply was, what if it was true and there was ample proof of it? Would we still side with that government? Sadly, it seems some here would, or they would be in denial no matter how much evidence were brought to the table. Again, please don’t misunderstand my comments as I’m not saying this theory is true or not.

Also, we’re not the ones that brought up the issue of 9/11 in the first place. It was brought up to discredit Steven Sizer. Again, simply because he may see validity to that theory doesn’t make him anti-Semitic/Jew-hater or anti-Christ. He seems to be for the promotion of peace in the Middle East as opposed to war and simply does not see the necessary fulfillment of certain Biblical prophecies in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and multitudes of true believers (including many Messianic Jews) agree.

There are many Jewish people, both inside and outside of Israel, who disagree with certain Israeli government policies due to them seeing certain types of biased corruption, just like here in the US there are many Americans who disagree with and do not fully trust the government due to there being ample proof of corruption throughout the years.

Again, not trusting the Israeli government, particularly Mossad (partly due to them being linked with the CIA- the CIA being an organization that has been clearly exposed as highly corrupt and treacherous to US citizens), does not equate with not trusting the Jewish people as a whole. The government is a separate entity from the people but some here refuse to accept that distinction, and we are called anti-Christ and unsaved for pointing that out.

O
Oracio

Also again for the record, I do not side with Iran or any other Islamic nation that has hateful policies against Christians, Jews and others. Again, there is corruption on both sides of the conflict in the Middle East.

S
sermonindex

"It was brought up to discredit Steven Sizer"

No, Sizer has done an excellent job to utterly discredit himself as an agent of satan, a wolf in wolves clothing. A true man of the cloth.
(He can repent however and turn to Jesus and be saved)

M
makrothumia

If we believe we have discernment, can we discern when an issue has become "ruinous" to the hearer?

In a multitude of words transgression is unavoidable.

It sure appears "the dividing wall of hostility" that our Lord gave His life to remove has been rebuilt in this thread.

Is it not better to be wronged...(for the sake of the name of Christ) than to insist on being right by accusing those who are "wrong".

I believe the Spirit of our Lord is grieved over some of the communication in this thread.

Makrothumia

D
docs

You wrote,

I have not posted on here for a couple of days as I do not want to perpetuate this discussion that was going nowhere. However I just want to clarify something regarding accusations, so this is my last post on this.

You have to accept that there were many things written by both sides of this argument that were uncalled for. You make it sound like it was all one sided.

PP correctly stated that there were two original topics posted. First by Docs and the one I posted on the film about anti-Semitism. It was on this one that we saw accusations being posted right from the start. I just posted the link with no real comment and was content to leave it for folk to watch and judge themselves. Immediately Julius posted a provocative reply, before even watching the film. He accused Michael Brown of being caught in a cult! He then went on to post incessantly, before even watching the film out and afterward making more accusations.
Some of these accusations were that people that supported the re-birth of Israel were Christian Zionist, Hebrew Roots Movement and were even responsible for the deaths of thousands of people in the wars between Israel and the arabs. The makers of the film were also accused of having a sinister agenda. He even went on to say it would have been better if Israel had never become a nation in 1948 and the Jews had stayed where they were.

If you go back and read these threads from the beginning you can easily see and verify these things and see how even with these accusations right at the beginning the responses to Julius were measured and gracious. However he persisted in posting more and more until he got the response he did. Then later on we get different types of posts, claiming he actually supports Israel having a homeland and has a heart for the Jews, etc, etc. So he now becomes the victim and everyone against him the villains, just like Docs posted selected quotes above, but forgot the ones I have highlighted. Even you, Oracio repeated the conspiracy theory of Israel and 9/11 to your shame. Why would you do that on a thread that was already on fire!

It will be seen as obvious to many who was the main contributor and incessant poster on this topic and fanned the flames with uncalled for accusations. If there is a need for repentance apology it needs to start there.

Doc: Hey bro. I'm playing catch up ball here to a large degree. Meaning, I have not even looked at the thread you started on the film "Covenant and Controversy" unjtil tonight. It wasn't a conscious omission or anything I just didn't look at the thread. I've been very busy at work etc. and I have known about this film but didn't look at the thread until today. I looked at about 70% of the comments and replies. So my earlier post was not forgetting the things and statements you referenced. It was just that I hadn't seen them until now.

I don't believe Michael Brown is a part of any cult and any references to 9/11 and Israel, even if not a outright accusation but along the lines of I wouldn't be suprised if it is found out they were complicit, I find to be very disappointing. So I wasn't ignoring your comments, I just had not even looked at the thread on the film until today.

Meanwhile, I have watched the first 30 minutes of the film and they are treading on delicate ground to be sure but ground that needs to be tred upon and examined afresh. I have no problem with it so far. The motivating factor behind these persecutions cannot be entirely divorced from certain Christian theologies no matter how much one may want to avoid it. Thank you for the recommendation of the film and the concern you have shown.

S
sermonindex

For sure docs, Christian "theologies" can be harmful to people. Let's do a self-inventory whether or not our theology is harmful to anyone and take the necessary actions to line up with the Lord's heart.
http://littleguyintheeye.com/biblical-studies/end-times/zionism/

The Hope of Israel
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/

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