Jews and is Israel in the New Testament? Do They Still Have a Covenant with God? ABSOLUTELY YES

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sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

Are Jews, Jews, and is Israel, Israel in the New Testament? Do They Still Have a Covenant with God?

by Clarence H. Wagner, Jr.
ABSOLUTELY. THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ON THIS.

1) The Jews are Israelites, not Gentiles (Rom. 9:4).

2) To Israel still belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship and the promises (Rom. 9:4).

3) The gifts and calling of God for Israel are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

4) There are 77 references to Israel in the NT and none of them refer to the Church. Try replacing the words, "the Church," where Israel is mentioned and the passage is rendered unreadable and silly, e.g., Rom. 10:1, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." If you put "the Church" where Israel is mentioned, then it is redundant. The Church is the body of saved believers, so how could Paul's prayer be for the Church to be saved?

5) Psalm 105 has a seven-fold affirmation of God's promises of Canaan to Abraham. This is an everlasting promise, as was Genesis 12:1-3.

6) Jeremiah 31:35-37 speaks of the everlasting nature of God's promises to and for Israel, the Jewish people, which is as sure as the sun that shines by day and the moon and stars that glow in the night.

7) The end-time prophecies, which speak of the return of the House of Jacob to their land (Israel) and its restoration, have overwhelmingly been fulfilled in Israel and the Jewish people in the past 120 years. (See, Isa. 11:11-12; Eze. 37:1-14; Eze. 36; Eze. 35:1, Isa. 43:5,6; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 60:9-11; Isa. 49:22-23, etc.).

8) The Gospel and Yeshua came "to the Jews first, then the Greek" (Rom. 2:9,10; Matt:10:5-7;15:24). There is a distinction in roles between the two. Galatians 3:28 says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This is speaking of everyone's standing before God as equals, because we are all sinners saved by God's grace and the atoning work on the Cross. Nevertheless, our roles here on earth are definitely distinct; e.g., men and women, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, etc. all have distinct roles to play. Likewise, Jews and Gentiles have distinct roles to play.

What is the Role of the Church?

1) "On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included. 2) The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17); "brought near" (Eph 2:13); "Abraham's offspring" (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); "heirs" to Abraham's promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and "partakers" (Rom 15:27).

3) To the world, the Church is called to preach the Gospel to all nations and make disciples (Matt. 28:19-20); to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength; and to love our neighbour as ourselves (Mk. 12:30-31).

4) To the Jewish people, we are called to show God's love "for the sake of the Patriarchs" (Rom. 11:28), for without them we would not have had God's Word or our Saviour who was a Jew from Israel. We are to show God's mercy (Rom. 11:31). We are to give our material gifts to help them (Rom. 15:27). We are to pray for them and for Israel (Ps. 122:6). We are to be watchman on the walls to protect them (Isa. 62:6,7). We are to help with the aliyah (immigration) to Israel and the building up of Zion (Isa. 60:9-11; Jer. 16:14-16; Isa. 49:22-23).

5) According to Romans 11, we are two distinct groups, both grafted into the same tree, which are the covenants and promises given to Israel; grounded in the same root, the Messiah; drinking of the same sap, God's Holy Spirit. We do not hold up the tree, but the tree us, and we are forbidden from boasting against or being arrogant to God's covenant people the Jews (Rom. 11:17-18).

What Happens When the Church Replaces Israel?

1) The Church becomes arrogant and self-centred.

2) It boasts against the Jews and Israel.

3) It devalues the role of Israel or has no role for Israel at all.

4) These attitudes result in anti-Semitism in word and deed.

5) Without a place for Israel and the Jewish people today, you cannot explain the Bible prophecies, especially the very specific ones being fulfilled in Israel today.

6) Many New Testament passages do not make sense when the Jewish people are replaced by the Church.

7) You can lose the significance of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, for today. Many Christians boast of being a New Testament (NT) Christian or a NT Church as in the Book of Acts. However, the Bible of the early Church was not the New Testament, which did not get codified until the 4th century, but rather the Hebrew Scriptures.

8) You can lose the Hebraic/Judaic contextualization of the New Testament, which teaches us more about Yeshua and how to become better disciples.

9) The Church loses out on the opportunity to participate in God's plan and prophecy for the Church, Israel and the world today.

What Happens When the Church Relates to Israel?

1) The Church takes its proper role in God's redemptive plan for the world, appreciating God's ongoing covenant relationship and love for Israel and the Jewish people.

2) We can see the consistency of God's redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation as an ongoing complementary process, not as disconnected snapshots.

3) We show love and honour for God's covenant people, not contempt.

4) We value the Old and New Testaments as equally inspired and significant for the Church today.

5) Bible prophecy makes sense for today and offers opportunities for involvement in God's plan for Israel.

6) We become better disciples of Yeshua as we are able to appreciate the Hebraic/Judaic roots that fill in the definitions, concepts, words and events in the New Testament that are otherwise obscured. Why? Many were not explained by the Jewish writers of the New Testament, because they did not feel the need to fill in all the details that were already explained in the Old Testament.

Had the Church understood this very clear message from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided. The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God's Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God's Name. Yet, it is not too late to change our ways and rightly relate to the Jewish people and Israel today. Through Bridges for Peace you can read, study and learn more, and also give to demonstrate God's exhortation to us to bless His Covenant People, whom He still loves. Not only do we need to learn and do for ourselves, but we need to teach others so as to counteract the historical error that has been fostered in the Church for nearly 2,000 years.

Thank God, He is a God of mercy, redemption and second chances.

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

"Had the Church understood this very clear message from the beginning, then the sad legacy of anti-Semitic hatred from the Church may have been avoided. The error of Replacement Theology is like a cancer in the Church that has not only caused it to violate God's Word concerning the Jewish people and Israel, but it made us into instruments of hate, not love in God's Name. Yet, it is not too late to change our ways and rightly relate to the Jewish people and Israel today. Through Bridges for Peace you can read, study and learn more, and also give to demonstrate God's exhortation to us to bless His Covenant People, whom He still loves. Not only do we need to learn and do for ourselves, but we need to teach others so as to counteract the historical error that has been fostered in the Church for nearly 2,000 years."

So true rev. And it continues to this day.

S

savannah Oct 31, 2015

So... who killed Jesus?

According to Jesus,

"Listen to another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, made a fence round it, dug a wine-tank in it, and built a strong lodge; then let the place to vine-dressers, and went abroad. 34When vintage-time approached, he sent his servants to the vine-dressers to receive his share of the grapes; 35but the vine-dressers seized the servants, and one they cruelly beat, one they killed, one they pelted with stones. 36Again he sent another party of servants more numerous than the first; and these they treated in the same manner. 37Later still he sent to them his son, saying, "'They will respect my son.' 38"But the vine-dressers, when they saw the son, said to one another, "'Here is the heir: come, let us kill him and get his inheritance.' 39"So they seized him, dragged him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40When then the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-dressers?" 41"He will put the wretches to a wretched death," was the reply, "and will entrust the vineyard to other vine-dressers who will render the produce to him at the vintage season."

42"Have you never read in the Scriptures," said Jesus, "'The Stone which the builders rejected has been made the Cornerstone: this Cornerstone came from the Lord, and is wonderful in our eyes'?

43"That, I tell you, is the reason why the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that will exhibit the power of it. 44He who falls on this stone will be severely hurt; but he on whom it falls will be utterly crushed."

45After listening to His parables the High Priests and the Pharisees perceived that He was speaking about them; 46but though they were eager to lay hands upon Him, they were afraid of the people, for by them He was regarded as a Prophet.

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sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

thanks notdarkyet, For an example of a Jew hater see the post below by savana.
He/her twists and distorts and misuse the scriptures to suit his/her Jewish hating bias.
Jesus was killed by the Romans as well as a few leaders of the Jews at the time.
This poster blames the Jewish nation to facilite his/her hatred of the Jewish people

Psalm 2New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”

S

savannah Oct 31, 2015

So...who killed Jesus?

According to Stephen, the first martyr,

48Yet the Most High does not dwell in buildings erected by men's hands. But, as the Prophet declares,

49"'The sky is My throne, and earth is the footstool for My feet. What kind of house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or what resting place shall I have?

50Did not My hand form this universe.'

51"O stiff-necked men, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you also are continually at strife with the Holy Spirit””just as your forefathers were. 52Which of the Prophets did not your forefathers persecute? Yes, they killed those who announced beforehand the advent of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become”” 53you who received the Law given through angels, and yet have not obeyed it."

54As they listened to these words, they became infuriated and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But, full of the Holy Spirit and looking up to Heaven, Stephen saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. 56"I can see Heaven wide open," he said, "and the Son of Man standing at God's right hand." 57Upon this, with a loud outcry they stopped their ears, rushed upon Stephen in a body, 58dragged him out of the city, and stoned him, the witnesses throwing off their outer garments and giving them into the care of a young man called Saul. 59So they stoned Stephen, while he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then, rising on his knees, he cried aloud, "Lord, do not reckon this sin against them." And with these words he fell asleep. Acts 7

If none would accuse Jesus or Stephen of being Jew-haters, then neither ought any to accuse me or Julius of the same as we merely agree with Jesus and Stephen.

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

From the GTY webpage

http://www.gtycanada.org/resources/articles/A336/who-killed-jesus

Acts 4:27, a corporate prayer offered in an assembly of the very earliest believers:

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together."

So there is no justification whatsoever for trying to fix the blame for Jesus' death on any one people group. This was, in essence, a corporate act of sinful humanity against God.

All are guilty together.

And yet even that does not exhaust the full truth about who killed Jesus. Scripture emphasizes from cover to cover that the death of Christ was ordained and appointed by God Himself. One of the key Old Testament prophecies about the crucifixion is Isaiah 53. Isaiah prophetically describes the torture of the Messiah at the hands of a scoffing mob, and then adds, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief" (Isaiah 53:10).

So yes this savanah and many like him/her are Jew haters.

D

docs Oct 31, 2015

Who prayed a prayer for their forgiveness?

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

David

JESUS, The King of the Jews.
The Lion from the tribe of Judah
Jesus is his name,

S

savannah Oct 31, 2015

Who has the greater sin!

Again...I say to you,

According to Jesus,___ ____.

1Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. 2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands. 4Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith to them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him. 5Then Jesus came forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith to them, Behold the man! 6When therefore the chief priests and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith to them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid; 9And went again into the judgment-hall, and saith to Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. 10Then saith Pilate to him, Speakest thou not to me? knowest thou not, that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11Jesus answered, Thou couldst have no power against me; except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me to thee hath the greater sin. 12And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Cesar's friend. Whoever maketh himself a king, speaketh against Cesar.

13When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down on the judgment-seat, in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith to the Jews, Behold your King! 15But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith to them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Cesar.

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savannah Oct 31, 2015

docs asked,

Who prayed a prayer for their forgiveness?

Where there's no guilt or blame, there's no need of forgiveness!

D

docs Oct 31, 2015

What makes anyone think the Gentiles would have done any different if they had been in charge of the religious system of the day? Would the Gentiles have accepted Christ and His claims with open arms and done everything just right and crowned Christ as King? Is there supposed to be something in the Jew that is more prone tio evil than what is in Gentiles? God has concluded all under sin so that He might show mercy to all. So you believe the Jews are guilty of killing Jesus as Jesus and Stephen stated. Jesus and Stephen also prayed for forgivenss for those who crucified Jesus and Stephen. So where do you think we should go from here? Now what?

S

savannah Oct 31, 2015

Now that's a post I can heartily agree with!

You ask,"So where do you think we should go from here? Now what?"

We ought to imitate them!

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

thanks notdarkyet, For an example of a Jew hater see the post below by savana.
He/her twists and distorts and misuse the scriptures to suit his/her Jewish hating bias.

Carmine,

This is another warning to please do not accuse other people directly in this way. It is simply wrong. Good believers can disagree with the importance of the Israel state and we can still have fellowship with them. In no way is hatred being allowed towards Jewish people on SermonIndex, and please do not jump to conclusions on what people are saying.

It is true that right now Israel has been blinded and is under disobedience till the fulness of the gentiles are brought in and then "all" Israel shall be saved. I do believe those jewish brethren that come to faith now are precious jewels of a coming harvest and fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.

SermonIndex is a place where we can have grace with each other in the body of Christ to grow into maturity and full understanding. We are all needing help in different areas.

D

docs Oct 31, 2015

Now that's a post I can heartily agree with!

You ask,"So where do you think we should go from here? Now what?"

We ought to imitate them!

Doc: Yes we should. We should all work on this.

Thank you bro.

R

roadsign Oct 31, 2015

Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included.

I'm surprised that the key point in this Ephesians passage has not been emphasized in this discussion:

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two ONE .... His purpose was to create in himself ONE NEW MAN out of the two, thus making peace, and in this ONE BODY to reconcile both of them to God ...." Eph. 2:14,15

When seen through the eyes of God, in Christ there are not two groups, but one - with one identity. It's not a blend of the two old identities, Jew and Gentile, - but ONE BRAND NEW IDENTITY. a new person. There is neither Jew nor Greek,, etc.

The meaning of "Jew" is far too diverse to make much of it. You'll never know how many with that label are proselytes by heritage, and how many without that label have Jewish genes in them.
That's not what matters in God's eyes.

In the end there are only two categories: the wheat and the tares - those in the Kingdom and those not in the kingdom. The narrow way is the same for all.

Would you not agree?

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

Diane

Everything you stated is true.
However that does not negate God's promises and dealings with national and
ethnic Israel. This is what replacement theology does. It is satanic not because I say so but look at the fruit it has produced. This twisting of the scriptures has been used by satan as an excuse to persecute and kill millions upon millions of Jews throughout the ages. The fruit of this theology is utterly evil. It cannot be true because its end result is rotten to the core.
The Jewish people are part of God's ultimate plan, He will graft them back in and in the way he chooses, Now that is good fruit. He is God after all and NOTHING will stop him from fulfilling his covenant with them as with us who are in Christ. . Romans 11 would help.

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

Hi Rev-Enue,

We have said there are extremes on both sides. On the other side (Israeli nationalism) there is also bad fruit, killing, maiming and suffering.

So, if we could set aside the extremes and just purse from a biblical standpoint, that would be helpful. Don't you agree that there are people on both sides that wish no harm for others and also the opposite kind of people on both sides? I am sure you do.

For instance, Netanyahu just came out and said, "Israel will always live by the sword". And, don't get me wrong, I understand why he says that.

This is from a Jewish publication: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-is-dooming-israel-to-live-eternally-by-the-sword-1.368163http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-is-dooming-israel-to-live-eternally-by-the-sword-1.368163

So, I don't think anyone here that loves Jesus Christ and understands the Gospel of Peace, would agree with that.

From Netanyahu, "Netanyahu reiterated this position in the Knesset. "The reason for the conflict, and for its continuation, is the refusal to recognize the Jewish people's nation-state in any borders," he said.

So, just to go on record: I do recognize the Jewish people's right to have their own state. Just so you know. Mine is only a biblical quest, I have no problem with Jews having their own homeland.

In an effort to be conciliatory with you, I do agree that there is a Satanic extreme on both sides, but surely you don't think the brothers in SI are part of that, on either side. I certainly don't.

S

sermonindex Oct 31, 2015

Julius21

All the best to you in Christ.
I did not say that some members were satanic, But this
doctrine is certainly satanic . Replacement theology has been and still is a tool in the hands of satan and has continued to be used as such.
No good fruit has come of it whatsoever but unimaginable evil has been done to
the Jewish people over the centuries using this wicked doctrine of demons,

R

roadsign Nov 1, 2015

Replacement theology has been and still is a tool in the hands of satan

I’m saddened to read this claim. My relatives were leaders in the underground movement in Holland during WW2 and saved the lives of many Jews ”“ at great risk and cost. They were staunch Reformers, and embraced "Replacement Theology”. They saw many miracles of God during those dark days.

Any theology can become misused and distorted! Replacement theology need not be divisive if held in light the teachings in Ephesians 2 about God’s "ONE NEW MAN”. Everyone is replaced!!!! It’s the new life in Christ.

I see great benefit of embracing Replacement Theology: We allow the entire Bible to be available to all who put themselves under the umbrella of Christianity today. We’d see that the warnings and judgments for ancient Israel apply to the Church. We’d see that the Church cannot claim God’s favor any more than Israel could ”“ esp while practicing a form of godliness without its power. We’d see that God can shut to door on the existing Church institution just as easily as God did for Israel. God can scatter them. And above, all: the remedy is the same!

Art Katz, a Spirit filled Jewish theologian believed that present day Israel is not the Israel prophesied in the OT because it’s not the same. Israel will yet be scattered, he believes.

Many have assumed that the present state of Israel is fulfillment of God’s promise, and we are thereby required to give it special favor and protection. The whole thing is politicized”“ and many are trying to justify their political slants with with Scripture. That is surely demonic!!! Look at the war, oppression, land claim battles….

Remember that God’s called ones are sojourners, aliens….and our home is an eternal kingdom.
That’s the kingdom we fight for ”“ not with the sword, but with the weapons of faith.

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Amen, Diane.

The Old Covenant was disanulled (replaced). When Jesus was on the Cross, He alone was "Israel" (He was the first to replace them). No one else at that particular time, was the true Israel of God except Jesus Christ. Now, He grafts those in (to Himself) that turn to Him.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

We have to realize there are extremes on both sides and be more gracious to one another.

M

MrBillPro Nov 1, 2015

For me personally is all so sad. I grew up believing the word of God, and that it was the truth, I struggle as it is because I'm was gifted with more common sense than book sense. I struggled in school, but I could build you a space ship if you gave me the parts. I don't know if the folks in the battle here, even realize how much confusion these recent threads have caused for me or maybe others, or if pushing their their agenda is so important, they have completely overlooked the confusion they may be causing. Some may say well Bill, pass these threads up don't read them, but I come here to learn to soak up all I can, because I want to know all I can about God and what he's done in the past, and his plans for the future according to his word.

I pray one day we can all come here with humble hearts, and just set and read the promises we have for our hope in Christ. You know all this back and forth, has me wondering, who is God and who is Jesus, and if they both live, why do I suffer in a place were folks come to grasp every drop of knowledge they can, and cry out to him to help them understand this knowledge. Lord have I been a member here in vain? Lord you said confusion is not from you, are you not here Lord? because I personally am confused now for the first time in my life in my walk with you. Lord I have let this confusion murky my thoughts of what really is the truth, I am sorry lord, I've always said I was sold out to Christ, please don't let these words I read take me away from you. Lord you know all I been through in the past 5 years, your all I have to hold on to. Please Lord! shout it out in my spirit, have I been right all along? if not please let me know were I go from here.
I Love You Lord!
Mr. Bill

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Bill,

Crusader says he is learning and hopes the threads don't get shut down because of invectives. There is a lot to learn if we keep the agenda the word of God. I have learned a ton from this dialogue. I think JFW, TMK, Oracio, Proudpapa papa and others would say the same thing. Let's just keep the emotion out of it. The debate between Stephen Sizer and Calvin Smith was a good example of talking about a potentially controversially subject, yet maintaining Christian love. Good will was exhibited on both sides.

S

savannah Nov 1, 2015

When Jesus was on the Cross, He alone was "Israel" (He was the first to replace them). No one else at that particular time, was the true Israel of God except Jesus Christ.

http://subspla.sh/c98154a

O

Oracio Nov 1, 2015

Amen Julius.

Brother Bill, I’ll try to briefly share what for me is the bottom line on this topic. For several years I held to a Pre-trib, Premilliennial view of the rapture as I attended a Calvary Chapel and was taught that that is the clear teaching of the Bible and that disagreement with that view was serious enough for one not to be welcome in that denomination.

But then I began thinking for myself and began prayerfully considering other end-times views held among other Christians and denominations. And after a certain amount of research I became convinced of the Pre-wrath view of the rapture, still holding to a Premillennial view of the Millennium.

But then I also began to prayerfully consider other views held among different Christians and denominations concerning the Millennium of Rev. 20. And after prayerfully considering different views and certain pertinent Scriptures I became convinced that the Amillennial position was the most consistent with the overall teaching of God’s Word. And in the process I looked into the issue of ethnic Israel’s role in God’s plan since one’s Millennial view affects one’s view on Israel. Likewise I was convinced that the "unpopular” view on that topic that has been shared here as of late in these different threads is the view that is the most consistent with the overall teaching of the Scriptures.

So the bottom line for me on this is that when it comes to these types of topics we must be willing to think for ourselves as opposed to simply going by what we’ve been taught within certain Christian circles.

And we must understand that this issue is "non-salvific” (non-essential to salvation) so there is no need for outright division among Christians over it. I have Christian friends who are Dispensational and we get along just fine and do street ministry together despite knowing that we disagree on this topic. This topic can and should be discussed in a civil manner among Christians who disagree, knowing that iron sharpens iron and good and necessary balance can be acquired through these types of discussions if we go about it in the right spirit.

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

"Everything you stated is true.
However that does not negate God's promises and dealings with national and
ethnic Israel. This is what replacement theology does. It is satanic not because I say so but look at the fruit it has produced. This twisting of the scriptures has been used by satan as an excuse to persecute and kill millions upon millions of Jews throughout the ages. The fruit of this theology is utterly evil. It cannot be true because its end result is rotten to the core.
The Jewish people are part of God's ultimate plan, He will graft them back in and in the way he chooses, Now that is good fruit. He is God after all and NOTHING will stop him from fulfilling his covenant with them as with us who are in Christ. . Romans 11 would help."

Great post Rev. Keep up the good work , satan cannot defeat
the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Good Lord! Sigh...

I

InTheLight Nov 1, 2015

I pray one day we can all come here with humble hearts, and just set and read the promises we have for our hope in Christ. You know all this back and forth, has me wondering, who is God and who is Jesus, and if they both live, why do I suffer in a place were folks come to grasp every drop of knowledge they can, and cry out to him to help them understand this knowledge. Lord have I been a member here in vain? Lord you said confusion is not from you, are you not here Lord? because I personally am confused now for the first time in my life in my walk with you. Lord I have let this confusion murky my thoughts of what really is the truth, I am sorry lord, I've always said I was sold out to Christ, please don't let these words I read take me away from you. Lord you know all I been through in the past 5 years, your all I have to hold on to. Please Lord! shout it out in my spirit, have I been right all along? if not please let me know were I go from here.
I Love You Lord!

I hope that everyone here will read Bill's post carefully.

Bill, I just want to encourage you to keep your heart with all diligence, don't let these things rob you of your joy in the Lord.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
(Isaiah 26:3-4)

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Oracio, ProudPapa, Roadsign, anyone else, I propose we stop discussing this subject on SI. We have explained we are not siding with any extreme views and don't hate jews, but I don't think it has been received or believed. I have serious concerns about the implications of both extreme views and would like to continue to work through them. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just want to be able to discuss the Scriptures regarding both views.

If you know of a safe place (tolerant) to work through this issue and discuss the scriptures, please write me. We could also just discuss through email if there is no other place to discuss without accusations. I have no desire to hurt Bill or anyone else so this is my last word on the subject here on SI.

May the Lord continue to bless everyone and may we all continue to pray for peace in the Middle East.

julius@theovercomer.org

R

roadsign Nov 1, 2015

Oracio, ProudPapa, Roadsign, anyone else, I propose we stop discussing this subject on SI.

I cannot accept this direction!!! Debate can be an effective tool to sharpen ourselves and one another. It's far better to develop good debating skills than shut it down all together. The challenge is to learn how to stick to the topic and not make the person the issue.
And when comments are directed personally - then we simply need to call it for what it is, and move on. It happens. Learn to work with it with grace.
Why shut it down???

PS A forum like this thrives best on debate. Those are the threads that seem to stay alive. So if we don't learn the tools of debate, we'll merely end up with a lot of lock downs - of threads that get little discussion.

Diane

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sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Brother/Sister notdarkyet

Its not dark yet but it's getting there.
Its so sad to see the willful deception and blindness displayed
by so many in religion. The Lord Bless you abundantly

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

by roadsign on 2015/11/1 16:29:39

Oracio, ProudPapa, Roadsign, anyone else, I propose we stop discussing this subject on SI.
I cannot accept this direction!!! Debate can be an effective tool to sharpen ourselves and one another. It's far better to develop good debating skills than shut it down all together. The challenge is to learn how to stick to the topic and not make the person the issue.
And when comments are directed personally - then we simply need to call it for what it is, and move on. It happens. Learn to work with it with grace.
Why shut it down???
PS A forum like this thrives best on debate. Those are the threads that seem to stay alive. So if we don't learn the tools of debate, we'll merely end up with a lot of lock downs - of threads that get little discussion.

Diane, of course I agree with you, but I do not want to see people banned over this and the other side seems intent on stopping debate. Some of them are saying they are in pain over it and you know how that goes. It garners the sympathies of the moderators and they will shutdown debate if we do not voluntarily do it. What do we do? You are right, people need to deal with it and stop being emotional. If the Christian Church cannot work through controversial issues, then who do we turn to? No one else can.

The Hope of Israel
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/

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roadsign Nov 1, 2015

willful deception and blindness

This is a blanket character judgment arising out of an assessment of another's perceived theological position. It would not be tolerated in a theological essay and could cause one to receive a failing mark. I trust we can rise above this propensity - and stay with the topic. There is much good that can potentially come out of all this.

S

sermonindex Nov 1, 2015

Sad, very sad indeed, but i still would like to add some comments.

A doctrine can be right or wrong or partly right/ wrong .
BUT when a person kills it is because the person's heart is evil and he/she is not right with God, we can't blame a doctrine or any circumstances.

In this world there is only "Light" and "darkness" and the Light should be seperated from darkness.
We all know about Cain and Abel. Why did Cain kill?

1 John 3:11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother's were righteous.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

I'm not discussing what relationship today's Israel still has with God and what kind of tribulation there will be.
If we are "in Christ" and know that "our Redeemer lives " then i think this doesn't really matter so much and we can start to lift up our heads, because our redemption is drawing near (Luke 21:28)
And then "He Himself will come to have first place in everything." Colossians 1:18

Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus !