Is National Israel God’s Chosen And Holy Nation?

I believe this is such an important topic and I was thinking the other day, why should we not be able to have reasoned conversation without being bullied and labeled with venomous and hateful words? And do others resort to such conduct because they are afraid of the truth or maybe they are unable to reason from the Scriptures their point of view?

Does it make any difference that many look to physical Israel for Biblical fulfillment while others look to spiritual Israel? Is it unimportant? Does it really not matter that some look to the natural world while others are looking at the spiritual state of things?

I believe if we look to the natural for the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, the Church will be deceived. And that the Church must stop looking to national Israel for the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the new covenant era. The Church is the Israel of the new covenant. Paul says, we are "THE ISRAEL OF GOD". That seems awfully synonymous to "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL".

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 AND AS MANY AS WALK ACCORDING TO THIS RULE, PEACE BE ON THEM, AND MERCY, AND UPON THE ISRAEL OF GOD." (Gal 6:15-16)

What "rule" is Paul speaking of? The rule of "being a new creature in Christ", where circumcision is not of the flesh but of the heart.

I may be wrong but the Scriptures seem to teach that Biblical prophecy relating to the new covenant era is about spiritual Israel, not national Israel. It is about the true and false, or apostate Christians, not true or false national Israelites. The testimony of the scriptures is clear about them during the new covenant era.

Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Prophecy concerning God's people is no longer about national Israel, but rather spiritual Israel, which is composed of all those of every race and nation who claim to be Christ's own.

It is difficult at best to get around Joshua 21:43-45. All the promises relating to physical land and other matters were fulfilled under Joshua, but because of the Jews’ continual and chronic rebellion against God, "He amputated all of the land He had given them during the Roman/Jewish war of 67-70 A. D." Let it be noted that God never promised to give Israel land, or anything else, BUT ON THE CONDITION OF OBEDIENCE.

"And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Jos 21:43-45)

Not Finished Yet
"But is God finished with Jews as a race? Absolutely not! No more than He is finished with Gentiles as a race. God has not forsaken Jews or Gentiles. He wants all of them to come to His Son for deliverance and salvation. My entire thrust in this feature has been that He is finished with the Jews as a holy people and nation or as a religious and political state. We ought to accept the reality that God has only one "Israel” today, and she is the family or one body of believers." (Eph. 4:4).

All believers, regardless of race, are the children of Abraham (Gal. 3:7, 26-29).
All believers, regardless of race, are God’s chosen children (Eph. 1:3-6, Titus 2:11-14).
All believers, regardless of race, are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, "a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9).
All believers, regardless of race, are the temple of God (1 Cor. 3:16, 2 Cor. 6:16).
All believers, regardless of race, are currently in God’s spiritual kingdom or reign (Col. 1:13-14).
All believers, regardless of race, are called the circumcision (Phil. 3:3).
All believers, regardless of race, are called Jerusalem, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2-12).

The Whole Matter In A Nut Shell
If Old Jerusalem has been replaced by New Jerusalem (grace era or Christian system); if the Old Temple has been replaced by the New Temple; if the Old Priesthood has been superseded by the priesthood of all believers; if the Old Sacrifices were succeeded by the Perfect Sacrifice; if physical circumcision was replaced by spiritual circumcision (of the heart); and if New Israel (the Christian community) replaced Old Israel, then...Why would God, at some future date, restore the old carnal regulations and practices when something far better, with transcendent promises, has arrived? God has made everything new! The new order eclipses the old regulations and practices, which were only shadows of the good things to come (Heb. 10:1).

To put it another way, why would God return to the Old after having created the New? This would be regression, not progression. Or, why would God retreat by reinstating the carnal when He has resurrected the spiritual? Why would any believer want to surrender his spiritual status in this new age and return to the carnal, external, and legalistic arrangement under Moses””a system that was incapable of abolishing sins? Well, why?

For more: http://www.mindspring.com/~renewal/Israel.html

Here a little to truth to counteract the lies about God's dealings with Israel

Jeremiiah 33
6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure; and I will cure them and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.

7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to cease, and will build them as at the first.

8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity whereby they have sinned against Me; and I will pardon all their iniquities whereby they have sinned and whereby they have transgressed against Me.

9 And it shall be to Me a name of joy, a praise and an honorbefore all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them; and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I provide unto it.’

10 "Thus saith the Lord: ‘Again there shall be heard in this place (which ye say shall be desolate, without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem that are desolate, without man and without inhabitant and without beast),

11 the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, "Praise the Lord of hosts, for the Lord is good; for His mercy endureth for ever”””and of those who shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captives of the land, as at the first,’ saith the Lord.

12 "Thus saith the Lord of hosts: ‘Again in this place which is desolate, without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof shall be a habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down.

13 In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the South, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that counteth them,’ saith the Lord.

14 "‘Behold, the days come,’ saith the Lord, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

And what is the "good thing" that God promised but Jesus the Messiah, Himself.

"In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and JERUSALEM SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness." (Jer 33:15-16)

Jerusalem above now dwells safely in Christ. She (the Church) is the only one that "shall be called, "The Lord our righteousness", for the Lord is her righteousness!

And the Israel of God, now dwells safely in Christ.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and ISRAEL SHALL DWELL SAFELY: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." (Jer 23:5-6)

Who calls and declares the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS but the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, only!

A little more truth from Jeremiah 33

25 Thus saith the Lord: ‘If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth,

26 then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; for I will cause their captivity to cease, and have mercy on them.’”

Jeremiah 32

37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries whither I have driven them in Mine anger and in My fury and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely.

38 And they shall be My people, and I will be their God;

39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me for ever, for the good of them and of their children after them.

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from Me.

41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with My whole heart and with My whole soul.

42 "For thus saith the Lord: As I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

43 And fields shall be bought in this land whereof ye say, ‘It is desolate without man or beast. It is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.’

44 Men shall buy fields for money, and sign evidences and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley and in the cities of the South; for I will cause their captives to return, saith the Lord.”

The Old Testament is full of types of the "land", "city", "country", "dwelling place" and "habitation" that we dwell in now and are spoken of in the New Testament as Jesus Christ and His Body. You cannot separate the two, for they are one and they represent every nation and kindred and tongue.

Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. AND MANY NATIONS SHALL BE JOINED TO THE LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. (Zec 2:10-11)

In whom ye also are builded together for an HABITATION OF GOD through the Spirit. (Eph 2:22)

The Lord is our habitation.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, (Heb 12:22)

FOR IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28)

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (Jer 31:31-32)

It is important that the Church makes natural Israel jealous and that they are grafted back into the Vine. But, what seems to be happening today, is that natural Israel is making the Church jealous and causing the Church to be like them for the Church is adopting Old Testament ways.

Very good points, Oracio.

What really interests me is what will be the fruit of those in the church both in attitude and actions that look to physical Israel for the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy?

Many say persecution is coming. Will Christians who believe in carnal warfare be part of the company of men that persecute the Israel of God (Gal 6:16)?

Ant-semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture.

by Notdarkyet on 2015/11/22 9:48:51

Ant-semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture.

Notdarkyet, If you can't present your beliefs in a reasoned way, I would ask you to cease and desist with the hateful accusations and labels. We oppose a theological concept, not people. If you cannot control yourself, I would ask Greg and other moderators to talk to you about it.

One thing the link I gave presents very well is how false your accusations are: read it and cease your verbal attacks.

"Anti-Semitic?” Really?
In Israel, My Glory journal (June, 2006), the Editor, Elwood McQuaid, notes that any person who is anti-Israel is, "at the same time, anti-Semitic.”

This Editor’s loose generalization lacks substance and is void of reality. It is like saying that anyone who is anti-Nazi is, at the same time, anti-German, or that anyone who is anti-United Nations is, at the same time, opposed to all nations. There are many elements about National Israel I oppose, particularly the theology that she is God’s holy nation and special people and should be supported””financially and otherwise.

But am I anti-Jew because I oppose this theological concept? I oppose factors within America’s political system, believing it is largely pregnant with corruption. Does that make me anti-American?

It bugs me beyond words when these evangelical Editors and other writers, who lend their allegiance to National Israel "because she is God’s holy nation,” take pot-shots at those of us who cannot adopt their theological stance, and accuse us of being anti-Semitic. God has only one holy nation today, and she is the Christian community or the one body of believers. The divine testimony so affirms. Yet these evangelical Editors and their staff writers will point to a nation of atheists, National Israel, and affirm that she is God’s holy entity. Nothing could be farther from the truth. And so I say to Editor McQuaid: Get off your soap-box, cast aside your anti-ism, and face reality.

Enough is enough. Another staff-writer of Israel, My Glory told about the many ways Israel can be blessed. He referred, of course, to National Israel, not the community of the redeemed. This in spite of the fact that National Israel is 85% atheistic. So how in heaven’s name can we bless a nation of atheists? How in heaven’s name can God bless a nation of atheists? Yes, God no doubt has a remnant among the Jews in National Israel, as He has a remnant among all races. But to encourage Christians to bless an atheistic nation is beyond my ability to understand. I’d better close this section before I get all wound up and someone falsely accuses me of being anti-Semitic.

Is there anything in the Bible that you actually believe?
Or do you just invent things as you go along?

I've been "sitting" on this post to YOU, praying, pondering, and I believe in the final analysis is what we have here is a pearls before swine dichotomy.

you sent a slim simple arrow flying:

"Anti-Semitic and religion without the Holy Spirit.
A deadly mixture."

and you witnessed the reaction, with verbiage of

quote:

"Notdarkyet, If you can't present your beliefs in a reasoned way, I would ask you to cease and desist with the hateful accusations and labels. We oppose a theological concept, not people. If you cannot control yourself, I would ask Greg and other moderators to talk to you about it."

the dread irony is so thick you can cut with it a knife, in a different time and age, this "to talk to you about it." would be the stake, a pile of oak brush and the flame for you.

You unpack Jeremiah's Book of Consolation, (Chapters 30-33) in an attempt to "reason"....and that where the pearls before swine dichotomy comes in....there is no reasoning there, only a hard brittle form of "religion" cast back at you.

Heaven forbid, you speak and search out, with heart knowledge lensed thru the God the Holy Ghost, the Four "Suffering Servant Songs" of Isaiah, would you receive a hearing salted with love?.....or should we search out the Seven Penitential Psalms, that formed an early liturgy of the Early Church, known as The Way?

and then I ask myself, and I ask God, "what would be the fruit?"...its really just a barren tree, that's the error of replacement theology, or british-israelism....which then leads further into a dark denhole entitled "Christian Identity"....which basically says that all the Blessings of the Old Testament "belong" now to the "church", and all the curses, belong to the Jews.

Its a tortured twisting reading of The Story of God, which in the final analysis is One Glorious Continuum, not "fence-lined" off into "them" and "us".

Now, as you can see in the Writings, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, all of what happened, Godly and ungodly, is fearlessly recounted AND Canonized....yes?

I wonder how the "history" of the "church"(es...plural) over the last 1700 years would read like?....seeing as much of the New Testament was locked into Canon under the aegis of that scarlet whore of Rome, that is the Roman Catholic "Church", and its two cousins, the Greek and Russian Orthodox "churches", all "resplendent" with their priestcraft, their superstitions, their idolatry, the absolute wickedness of a MAN terming himself the "vicar" of Christ, said man the "papa, the "pope", who is even titled "holy father" by souls trapped in that institution fashioning itself as a "church".

Brother NDY, even engaging in this "posting" to you is causing me so much soul grief as I type, because when my soul gazes at the BIG PICTURE......what power do these men have?

Just words written on a cyber forum, lacking the Sweet Fragrance of Jesus, lacking ANY anointing, just lonely men with nothing better to do, then to hijack an internet ministry, with a single minded attempt, and tenacity, almost as if they were whipped by an unclean spirit to post post post...yet I can read the invariable response, "ugly accusations".....but let me tell you, I wrote a loving personal intimate testimony on How God was pleased to crush me, and in a supernatural Sovereign Way, reveal His Son TO me and IN me, wrote to brother Blaine (bearmaster)...and NOT five minutes had past since I hit the "post" button, it was not Blaine, who answered, but the seeming ringleader Julius, and he did not address anything I wrote, nor shared in my joy, but wrote a post that was full of "inquisition" (fully reminiscent of the Inquisitors of Spain)

it was terrible, who would want to even deign to post in such an environment? Its terrible, one feels like a pack of feral dogs awaiting the "meat" of others posts, to tear them apart and that's what I mean by "hi-jacking" this forum, and the result of all that will be; it will bring great reproach on a ministry, that my brother Greg has lovingly labored on for over 13 years.

But much to his horror, Greg will find out, once you let the wolves in the sheepfold, they are ravenous, and will make shipwreck of a website, that had "true Biblically based Revival" at the heart and center of this once redeemed website...and that grieves me no end.

This is all I can bear to write brother NDY, I just was led to write you, and tell you in love, you're not alone in what you so clearly discern, In Jesus love, neil

please allow me to send you a compilation Jesus and I edited together in 2003(?) entitled a "A Kingdom of Priests" which my brother Greg so lovingly hosts here. I was led to cut this together for my then 8 year old precious son, who was, at his own request, water baptized together with me....the Holy Spirit impressed upon me the NEED for my son to KNOW who he IS in Messiah Jesus, and now I send it for your edification, its 12 minutes long, and God willing profitable, to just close your eyes, and let the Wind of the Spirit in....MY PRAYER is that these men also listen and realize that I don't "hate" them....or "dislike" them, but I will not countenance error, nor sit still, when I feel a Godly forum hijacked.

"Kingdom of Priests"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=12043

Ephesians 2:12-14
That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST, being ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL , and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath BLESSED US WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Doc: Absolutely yes to all of those. Pre-mill believers do not deny this. It's a wrong premise to assume that if one believes that national Israel has a future as a godly and redeemed nation that the above is not true. When they become part of SPIRITUAL ISRAEL/TRUE ISRAEL by faith thier destiny will be a living demonstration that the above is true. The addtion of the Gentiles (Ephe 3:6 did nothing to change this.

Thank you for climbing out on a limb and acknowledging who True Israel is.

The thought seems to be that the addition of the Gentiles somehow brough about the spiritulization and even nullification of original promises made to Abraham (Gen 15:6-21). Verse 6 - Abraham believed God and it was reckined to him as righteousnmess. When Isarel believes God and Christ at the set time it will be reckoned to thenm as righteousness and the inward presence and righteousness of the Holy Spirit will make them morally able to not only possess the land but to keep the land. In no way will that nullilfy or marginalize the universal concept of Romans 4:13.

The physical land won't be important once they are in Christ as like Abraham they will be looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. They will realize that the battle is not for countries down on earth as God has in store for His Church a "better country". After they come into Christ they will realize there is no need to fight for countries down here.

So, all the promises to Abraham are indeed fulfilled in Christ.

God gave Israel land in the Old Testament stipulated on obedience. Christ does not give His Church, where there is no longer JEW nor Gentile, land on earth stipulated on obedience. We are pilgrims and sojourners on earth.

We have the testimony of the apostles (actually, the lack of testimony), in the New Testament, where they spent no time on physical Israel with the exception of Paul's writings in Romans 9-11. And of course Galatians where Paul likens all those not in Christ to the offspring of Hagar.

The Word says-"They that be of faith are blessed with Abraham". So this is now for anyone that is of faith, meaning faith in Christ.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

The blessing of Abraham comes on all those who are in Christ, Jew and Gentile. Those who are not in Christ, Jew and Gentile, are not blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:14

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The promises were made to Abraham and his seed, meaning Christ's

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So, the uncircumcized of heart, do not receive the promises that you and I have received in Christ.

Think about this: there is no JEW or Gentile in Christ. Does land in this world mean anything to you or I? I can answer no. Absolutely not! What about you? I am looking, as Abraham was, for a City whose builder and Maker is God, the New Jerusalem.

The worst fruit that has developed in looking to national Israel, is horrible division. We can't reach Galatians 3:26-28 until the Church understands Galatians 3&4 and that the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in Christ as Galatians reached.

Galatians 3:26-28
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. This is a big reason why Christ is a stumbling stone to the Jew.

Notice that Paul, Peter, John, James, Luke, Timothy, and Jude do not talk about national Israel as it is talked about today. The early church did not seem to have this teaching.

Neil

You wrote:

"Brother NDY, even engaging in this "posting" to you is causing me so much soul grief as I type, because when my soul gazes at the BIG PICTURE......what power do these men have? "

they have as much power as the devil has over Jesus,

And you wrote

"Just words written on a cyber forum, lacking the Sweet Fragrance of Jesus, lacking ANY anointing, just lonely men with nothing better to do, then to hijack an internet ministry, with a single minded attempt, and tenacity, almost as if they were whipped by an unclean spirit to post post post...yet I can read the invariable response, "ugly accusations""

Spot on. But is is aggravating to have to endure this diversion of God Word,
This is an attempt to obveryscate the mandate of sermon index to promote revival
and renewed lives given over to the purposes of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It makes one wonder if these individuals are plants.

in my post to brother(sister) NDY, I outlined what concerned me.

Now it has become wholly evident to me, that these men who cleave to the apostasy of replacement theology are allowed to go unchecked on this forum, which indicates either A. a lack of leadership....or B. that leadership by its lack of leadership agrees with this foul wickedness.

in either case, I wonder how the "on-line" body at large would react to the truth that SI is becoming a haunt for men who hold to such apostate beliefs....and have no compunction to bully other posters who disagree with such error....putting up post after post.

I mean who has the time and energy to write and write about such folly, and why are they so driven?

I DO wonder what the Body would say, if attention was canted HERE, so that many could read this apostasy on SI, Christians that never heard of SI, but will hear of it now, and be offered a chance to take it before the LORD and make up their own hearts and souls.

Brothers and sisters,

We ask admist any discussion on biblical topics that we can show grace to other believers who we would disagree with. I am not saying this verse applies to anyone 100% directly but there is an application we can use in that if some brethren have a better grasp on a truth then they can gently and prayerfully share with others in the right spirit, which then will bring change.

"But avoid foolish and unlearned debates, knowing that they create strife. The servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but must be gentle toward all people, able to teach, patient, in gentleness instructing those in opposition. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - 2 Timothy 2:23-26 MEV

May we not accuse other brothers and sisters, there was a time when we also did not see things clearly and still if we are honest there are areas in our walks were we are blinded to and others are showing "great grace" towards us.

What are all the blessings that national Israel is still waiting for that are not found in Christ?

Why do we still differentiate between Jew and Gentile after they both come into the Church, (where Jew and Gentile are no longer supposed to exist)?

Why isn't the Church waiting for the same things national Israel is waiting for?

Since the Old Jewish temple no longer has any meaning in the New Testament why do some think the temple spoken of in 2Thess 2 speaks of a physical temple and not the Temple of God, the Church?

Some say Paul was alluding to the Jewish Temple when he spoke of the apostate system setting himself (itself) "up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (v.4)

But, does that make sense in the overall context of the NT? Paul would never have referred to the Jewish Temple, for the Jewish Temple at this time was no longer an integral part of God’s new arrangement. The Temple was part of the old arrangement. Consequently, Paul would never have spoken of "temple” in the vein of indicating it was still a viable part of God’s overall plan. For, after all, it was the same Paul who said that Jesus broke down the OT arrangement "by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations” (Eph. 2:14-15). The Jewish Temple was no longer part of God’s holy plan when Paul penned those words, so why would he refer to a Jewish entity that was no longer considered holy by God?

In NT language, "temple,””” in essence, means a dwelling place””in II Thessalonians 2 means nothing more than that the apostate system and it’s leaders would "set themselves up in God’s place.” Again, there was no widespread falling away from the faith (apostasy) until long after A. D. 70.

The church (temple of God) was infiltrated and corrupted by Rome in the 2nd and 3rd century.

For hundreds of years, the papacy has promoted counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders. Even their statues "bleed” and "shed tears!” The "Virgin Mary” has appeared to a number of "Catholic saints.” And I could go on and on about the papacy’s counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders. She is noted for this kind of deceit””all through the centuries.

Heyday

You wrote:

"The major error in this whole debate is saying that Israel is now the Church. That is based on a completely false premise that the word Israel means the church. This is not supported by scripture and is the topic for another post. "

This is absolutely true. but what does that matter when you can do scripture gymnastics to twist and turn the Word of God to suit ones predetermined anti semitic viewpoint as this place so joyfully allows. (under the guise of tolerance)
No, this is not just semantics, it strikes at the heart of the gospel and must not be tolerated in a supposed Christ honouring forum.

thank you and may God bless you richly for some "Balm in Gilead".

"what neil?"

this Doc:

quote" " And when they heard that he was addressing them in the Hebrew dialect, they became even more quiet; and he said,

3 I AM A JEW, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God, just as you all are today." (Acts 22:1-3)"

again, "I AM A JEW"...Paul said.

then again, a partial quote from Paul's heart rending forthtelling , quote:

"1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for the sake of MY BRETHREN, MY KINSMAN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

4 WHO ARE ISRAELITES, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, (Romans 9:1-3)

I cannot even begin to convey to you in human words, as a Jew who follows Jesus, that SAME PAIN, that Paul felt.

you further went on to write, and I quote:

"Paul still introduced himself as a Jew and even still identified with his unbelieving brethren to the extent that he still called them kinsman. I believe the Jew has wrongly been portrayed as no longer God's covenant people from which all the blessings of the everlasting covenant flow (in Christ) and they are even called upon to give up their ethnic identity when they come to Christ. Why did Paul continue to speak of Jew and Gentile? "

Doc, can I share a small testimony with you, when I first came to follow Jesus....God placed me in a healthy assembly, and there was one older brother, who I had the most friendly of relationships with, he had served in the same part of American intel that I did, except he was a Spanish linquist, and I was a Korean linquist, so we had a common bond, and one day he told me, "youre no longer Jewish, you are a Christian".

I said, "that's not true Jerry", and we went on and on for a bit, I realized it was fruitless, because he didn't realize I didn't start life as JUST an ethnic or "secular" Jew....from the time I was dropped off at the doors of my synagogue at age 7, once the child I was, passed thru those doors, something supernatural, God was and is SO REAL to me, since that day, I would talk to Him, and He would talk to me, He always protected me, He always fed me, they taught us Torah and Hebrew and the Writings. in the back of the synagogue, they had 4 large display cases of antiquities from Israel and I would go by myself and gaze at them...in just wonderment, and sometimes close my eyes, I would be alone, and I could "see" a 15 year old David, standing on the battle line, having just been insulted by his brothers, and the whole my kinsmen, scared and terrified of this ugly foul wicked "champion" Goliath, would was speaking the filthiest things against Yahweh, and I could feel my own blood boiling, I could almost feel that smooth stone in one hand and the sling in the other.

and this moment might have been after I saw my first Holocaust documentary which was Renais's "Night and Fog", said film didn't make this wee lad, scared, or angry, or vengeful, it did two things, it made me AWAKE, and put ICE in my veins.

So as I stood back by the antiquities, eyes closed, blood of David in my veins, I felt what it must have felt like to give NO forethought to charge head long towards this beast, eyes locked onto his, fifteen year old legs punping, fitting the stone into the sling,and just letting fly...I had done it a thousand times before tending sheep.

(as a another sidenote, every summer I was sent to day camp, and it was the late 60's, and they still had riflery and archery, which was the only thing I really I enjoyed, because God gave me a gift, which is a steady calm, and when ever I fit the front sight into the backsight v-notch, or whenever I fit an arrow's nock into a cat gut string, and pulled back that arrow almost to my check, and let fly, or pulled a trigger, always a bullseye, or the next circle, and even then I KNEW it was gift)

so back at the case, I could feel the sling swinging, letting fly and watching that stone sink into the forehead of that demonic blasphemer Goliath, using ONLY the strengthe God gave to lift a too heavy sword for 15 year old arms and CUT its head off.

I remember that day. I always will.

Doc, you closed with this: ( and I could never say it like you)

quote: "Doc: Who is to say the Jew is to give up his ethnic identity when he comes to Christ?"

who? Stephen Sizer?

but you conclude WAY better than I could:

quote:

"If he shouldnt why should a Gentile give up his? The blessedness of the one new man is that it is made up of Jew and Gentile. I'm still at a loss and lack understanding when it is stated that the nation of Israel as a redeemed nation living within promised and specified geographical borders would mar and spoil the one new man because "there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ."

you say that so well, because I have 1700 years of historical knowledge of those who killed so many Jews, in the name of a false jesus, and get very implacable when I read post over post of this stuff.

God love you, neil

I am not saying anyone should "give up" their "ethnic identity", though in heaven you won't have one, and even now our citizenship is in heaven. But, our identity is in Christ and we identify each other as brother and sister, not Jew or Gentile, since the "middle wall of partition", has been broken down. The kingdom of God has no class distinctions as these things are unimportant to us and they only cause division. This is what the scriptures teach.

Who is Paul referring to as the "Israel of God".
Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Regarding "spiritualizing", scripture, did you read Oracio's post? And, what is the "temple of God" in these scriptures?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Here Paul talks about the temple of God being defiled, is he referring to the Jewish temple?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Here, scripture explains scripture.
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So, why isn't temple in these verses also referring to the Church?
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There is no Gnosticism at all about this since this had been taking place since about the 2nd century. War has been made on the saints of God, their blood has been spilled in every generation, as the kingdom of God battles "King" Satan and his kingdom. A veritable "Armageddon against the Church has taken place in the last 2,000 years as 10's of millions of Christians have been slain for the testimony of Jesus. And it continues to rage on.

In Revelation 3:12, 7:15, 11:1, 11:19, and 15:8, the temple of God does not refer to the old Jewish temple. So, it could also be said that you are spiritualizing a fictional end times scenario. But, I prefer not to use this kind of language and think we should just be respectful as Greg mentioned and search the scriptures.

There was no general apostasy involving the Christian community until long after the Roman/Jewish war. When the Roman empire lost its grip upon the then known world, apostasy was quick in developing. That apostasy evolved into the wicked papacy. It exists today, and will continue prevailing until the Lord comes again and brings an end to it.

This is not spiritualizing anything. It physically happened and has corrupted the Church, ever since.

The "counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” of (1 Thess. 2:9) can easily be the Catholic church. It is not spiritualizing scripture to think this. If I am correct in believing the papacy is the "man of lawlessness” (and in fact, this is true) and the apostasy then it is very easy to see the "counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” within this satanic system.

They have concocted the strangest "signs and wonders", the biggest of which is transubstantiation (turning bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus). So, this fits 2 Thessalonians, very well.

Note the marks of this apostate system, as recorded in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, and then tell me which ecclesiastical institution bears these marks.

1) He will exalt himself over God.
2) He will set himself up in God’s place.
3) He will claim to be God.
4) He’ll do counterfeit miracles and every sort of evil.
5) He’ll continue his dirty work until the Lord comes again.

No apostate system beats these marks except the papacy.

"The Symbolic vs. The Literal
If the "Battle of Armageddon” is to be understood literally as a future conflict, what about "spirits that looked like frogs” and "came out of the mouth of the dragon” (v. 13)? Is John speaking literally and naturally? And what about the hundred-pound hail stones (v.21)? See where I’m coming from? It’s so easy to pick-and-choose what is normal language and what is symbolic language. In choosing, however, let’s use a little common, ordinary sense. If we have a sensational doctrine to get people all emotionally worked-up about, we will view almost everything from a literal, normal perspective.

Example: If I wanted to convince people there were animal kings who ruled 2000 years ago, all I’d need do is turn to Jesus’ statement where he called King Herod a fox (Luke 13:31-32). There! I’ve proven my point. Herod was a literal, normal, fox””a four-legged animal. Just so with many prophetic interpreters and their "take it literally or don’t take it at all.”

These prophetic interpreters will turn to the Books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and Revelation, large portions of which are highly symbolic, and they see the leopard lying down with the goat, the cow feeding with the bear, the wolf and the lamb cohabiting, the lion eating straw like an ox, and a young child putting his hand into the viper’s nest without danger (Isa. 11).

These "prophets” interpret all these thing's literally. They fail to discern that the exquisite imagery of Isaiah typifies the Messiah’s government in this age, just as Isaiah 53 typifies the Lamb of God who was smitten for our transgressions. The Lord is saying through the prophet, in chapter 11, that an age is coming (and now exists) when there will be great peace and happiness in the new kingdom or reign, and it will be like a cow feeding with a bear or a wolf that lives with the lamb. Four-footed animals and their environments are not what Isaiah is talking about. He is addressing the peace and serenity that will reign in the hearts of God’s children in the redeemed society, the era of grace. That time is now, and has been for 2000 years." Buff Scott.

Docs, what is the "better country" spoken of in Hebrews? Is it the physical land of Israel?

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified

Philippians 3v7:But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,…

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me

If we would try and understand those scriptures and start to realise that it is most important to uplift the Lord and glorify Him then the "discussion " (to use a polite word ) in this thread would probably stop, our focus would be on the Lord and not on ourself and we would start praising God, saying, "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased..."Luke 2:14

Doc: ARE NOT what Isaiah is talking about? Funny thing, if you just read that portion and let it say what it says I could even swear it says, "the wolf will dwell with the Lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together. And a young child shall lead them." That sounds like four footed animals to me. Your, "that is not what Isaiah is talking about," seems a classic case of "HATH GOD REALLY SAID?" Some men go to seminary and obtain high and lofty degrees and then spend an entire life and ministry trying to prove the word of God in the Bible is not really true. I never want to get this far in my Christian life and have the view that even though God says something plainly that is not really what He meant or is talking about. That method should not be applied to the interpretation of prophecy.

Doc, reading that portion and being a NT saint, I am keenly aware that enemies from different nations who have become Christians have indeed "beaten their swords into plowshares and their swords into pruning hooks."

There are so many Christian stories of enemies from different nations that are now brothers. There are jew and Arab brothers in Christ. You fail to understand, thinking that it will be entire nations, but that will never happen as we see in the book of Revelation.

The Word Of God

by Jack Kelley

It seems like just about everyone is claiming the inheritance promised to Israel. But what does God say? Has Israel been rejected because of her disloyalty, to be replaced by the Church or some other group?

This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:37)

Why does Israel serve a future purpose in God’s plan, after what she’s done in the past?

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. (Ezekiel 36:22-23)

Will the Lord bring His people back to the land He promised them?

I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the LORD your God. (Amos 9:14-15)

This regathering actually began at the beginning of the 20th Century and was made official in 1948. One day soon the Lord will reveal Himself to Israel by destroying a huge Muslim force arrayed against them. Then He’ll complete the regathering, not leaving any behind (Ezekiel 39:22). He’ll protect those who are His through the End Times judgments (Jere. 30:11) and open their eyes to finally recognize that Jesus is their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) before the 2nd Coming.

Will Israel once again be God’s favored nation on Earth?

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders. Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who hope in me will not be disappointed.” (Isaiah 49:22-23)

What role will the rocks and the trees really play in this? Speaking to Israel God said,

You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands. (Isaiah 55:12)

So once again we see the contrast between man’s view and God’s view.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Think about it. How can we believe that God will keep all His promises to us, while at the same time believing that he broke all His promises to Israel? Of course they don’t deserve His loyalty, but then again, what makes us think that we do?

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? (Numbers 23:19)"

Good stuff.

Julius, I want to ask you a question: are you Buff Scott Jr?

Hi Neil,

I guess you did not see the post where I had mentioned that I just found him (Buff) on the web and had only read two articles.

[by Rev__Enue on 2015/11/24 15:13:22

The Word Of God

by Jack Kelley

It seems like just about everyone is claiming the inheritance promised to Israel. But what does God say? Has Israel been rejected because of her disloyalty, to be replaced by the Church or some other group?

I am quite happy with my inheritance which is Jesus Christ and can't think of anything else I would want that could add to Christ.

Hi "Julius"
I guess you not read where my entire background is in military intelligence from a very young age, I have certain programs, one is , I can load written sentences in, or phrases, or words in combination. Now everybodies "way" of writing is unique, people use certain words in unique groupings, 90-95%, its a semantic kind of fingerprint, and as I was writing, I can take a person, usually somebody posting anonymous, load a large representative sampling of their writing in, AND subject matter they deem "important" and the program will scan the entire open source web, for percentage "hits" and within 20 to 30 minutes give me a slew of matches from highest percentage to lowest. (the program has other capabilities, but that's not germane to this discussion)

i'm not going to reveal what my matches were, however I did notice you didn't give me a definite "yes" or "no" answer, because of course if you do follow Jesus, you wont lie.

so again, I ask are YOU, Buff Scott Jr?

Neil,

I was in the military too, but what really surprises me is that somehow you have missed the fact that I have been quoting Buff and stating that I am quoting him. Oracio and I even had a discussion about him. I might have missed a quote or two but so has Rev_Enue and others. I am still waiting for Rev to provide quotes or links for the supposed David Wilkerson statement which he has never done.

So, I don't know where you have been but I have provided plenty of references and links to Buff Scott and many here have seen them.

Maybe, it is true after all what they say about military intelligence.

By the way anyone can do what you are describing. It's not rocket science.

"Julius"....in my first query, you wrote this:

"Hi Neil,

I guess you did not see the post where I had mentioned that I just found him (Buff) on the web and had only read two articles. "

which intimates, "just found him, just read a few articles", in short, a brief cursory scan of the Buff's output.

But when I revealed what I did in the second post, your tune changed :
Quote:
"I have been quoting Buff and stating that I am quoting him. Oracio and I even had a discussion about him."

Quote: "So, I don't know where you have been but I have provided plenty of references and links to Buff Scott"

where have I been? watching and clocking YOU, and there is a bit of a difference between "just read a FEW articles" to
"provided plenty of references and links to Buff Scott"

a big difference in jut two posts, and though you claim to be a Christian, that didn't stop you from making a smarmy insult to me and my brothers who served with this precious little dropping:

quote:"Maybe, it is true after all what they say about military intelligence."

oh that's sweet, but you should be careful, you never know who exactly is sitting at the other end of that fiber optic cable.....and no, what I HAVE (not what I can do) cant be bought in any big box cyber store....so ...third time,and try not to lie:

are you Buff Scott Jr.?

and oh yeh, remember what I told above, heed it, I did not appreciate the crack about M.I. consider yourself warned.

Neil, dear brother, I am surprised you are talking to me about smarminess. But, I would much prefer that you are smarmy to me rather than make hateful accusations which I have never heard an apology for from you or Rev and NDY. These accusations were made to Oracio and proudpapa, too. I'm pretty sure I can speak for those two brothers and say that we have all forgiven you guys for calling us horrible names or implying the same. I know I am not anti Semitic, or a "Jew hater", and I am most certain Oracio and proud papa are not. And there are other brothers who also have a theological difference with you guys (including Hey Dave). I personally do not need an apology, but I feel real bad for my other brothers and I feel bad for you guys, too. I think it would help you guys most of all to take back those words and not leave them hanging out there in cyberspace.

By the way, my comments are all in the same post. Why are you talking about different posts? If you are tracking me this should be self evident. I'll resist being smarmy. My apologies.

are you Bud Scott Jr?

I think you mean Buff. And I would not be quoting myself or sending people to my page without identifying it as my page.

still not answering the question

Rev, I answered the question, you are not comprehending.

Where are those links to your David Wilkerson statement?

yeh, I think I did mean Buff, and instead of a very simple yea or nay to my query, which were I come from is the only answer a man should give. you write:

"And I would not be quoting myself or sending people to my page without identifying it as my page."

a yes or no would have sufficed.

and I will be frank with, as we BOTH sit on the eve of global war, what you have said about Messiah's ministry of reconciliation in light of the tribe of my flesh the Jews? its clearly evident in your vain imaginations and arrogant spiritual boasting, YOU HAVE NO FEAR OF GOD.

You shall soon learn.

Buff it is.
Good work Neil

Neil,

I don't understand why you feel the need to threaten, judge or try to intimidate me. And why don't you understand from my replies that I am not Buff Scott? I did not know I was being interrogated and was not suppose to answer in full sentences.

We have a theological difference, ok? Why so hostile? If what I speak is of God then you can't change a thing and if it is not of God then I can't change a thing. Either way, we both need to trust the Lord.

Is this the way I should expect you to act (and Rev, too) the next time there is a theological difference and I am on the opposite side of what you believe? Why be like Joab? And if you really do think I am an enemy of Christ, where is your Christian love?

I know you and Rev and NDY have been working hard to make this about the man and not the ball. And I have not played into your game. Don't you think it is getting tiresome? I do.

Neil, I'm really sorry I have to do this because we have enjoyed good fellowship in the past and I enjoy speaking with you but after praying about it, I have no choice but to ban myself from replying to you, Rev_Enue and notdarkyet. I think it is the best thing for you guys as your words can really hurt you and I don't want that to happen. This is the only way I can think of to moderate you. I hope you are not this ugly to people in real life.

If you want to communicate with me as other brothers do, my door is always open.

what you term "theological differences" is to me as a Jew who follows Jesus a whole lot more than the parlor games you play on this forum, it is the result of 1700 years of Gentiles with the word "Lord, Lord" on their lips as they murder kill and rape Jews.

We know our history, and when a contemporary poster comes in with a clear cut agenda, and a very passive/aggressive style of voice and a relentless driven urge to post his agenda, some of which you said that if it would have been better for the Jew to wander homeless, than for a "man made" "National Israel" to be formed by God using men to form the borders of regathered Jews BACK to Zion, the Hand of God protecting them DESPITE 4 separate wars and daily terrorist attacks....ahhhh, I had enough.

heal yourself physician.

I came back on here, innocent, excited, thrilled, because I thought this ministries guiding heartbeat STILL was for revival, and what a horrific surprise awaited this Jew who follows Jesus awaited me, arrogant religiositic high fiving with post after post with a replacement theology agenda....and you speak to me about CONVICTION?

you gaggle of modern day sanbalats should be ashamed of yourselves these posts after posts on Israel.

someday ...maybe...you learn that when God makes an EVERLASTING.....IREVOCABLE Covenant, that is exactly what YAHWEH means.

Edited and added some verses.

by brothagary on 2015/11/25 4:31:00

Back to weather those verses in jeramya speak of the Jewish people being restored to the land 70 years after their exile to Babylon .........

And these are the words that Jehovah spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

30:5 For thus saith Jehovah: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child: wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

The time of Jacobs trouble has allways been seen as a last days event,,also the church has never been call Jacob not even close ,,,,,wether it is in our future or weather it was the holacost ,around the time that God began to bring them back home , who could make the claim that it was the Babylonian exile ,,and is there scripture to support that ,,,,I see none .......

Ezekiel 37:24-25

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

David was a type of Christ (represents Christ) in the OT and at this point had been dead for about 300 years, so he could not rule the physical nation of Israel. Because God is injecting the word "forever" in these verses we know that God is speaking of the spiritual descendants of Israel. There is nothing in the Word of God that teaches a future rule of man, forever. The eternal ruler of the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

David means "Beloved" and this word has been attributed to the Lord Jesus many times, especially in the Song of Solomon.

Read the next verses carefully:

Joshua 21:43-45
And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

God had "performed thy words".

Nehemiah 9:7-8
Thou art the Lord the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

God made it crystal clear that He fulfilled His promise.

Nehemiah 9:23
Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.

1 Kings 8:56
Blessed be the Lord, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

God kept his promise to Abraham. But, there was a requirement for when they went into the land if they wanted to remain in the land.

Deuteronomy 28:63
And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

When we look at the verses regarding Jacob's trouble we are looking at the spiritual realm. Again, verse 7, God will raise up David, which is speaking of Jesus. The people of God, true believers will serve the Lord. Verse 10 is the language of true salvation from the captivity of sin.

Gary,

I will explain them to you, later. Got a busy day ahead of me.

My only agenda is the Word of God. We can do this without being ugly.

Neil wrote:

"someday ...maybe...you learn that when God makes an EVERLASTING.....IREVOCABLE Covenant, that is exactly what YAHWEH means."

good stuff, bears repeating

Doc. Appreciate your comments and thanks for not being ugly.

When the term everlasting or eternal is used, unless God changes the arrangement or nullifies the covenant, spiritual Israel is being referred to.

Physical nations do not exist forever, but the Israel of God, will.

Did you see the verses that I gave Gary that God declared that He did indeed keep His promises to Israel and in Joshua where He indicated that He fulfilled all His promises to Abraham?

rather than wasting time in an attempt to self justify, i'll just say this, on this forum, I know who my brothers and sisters are, and I know those who aren't period, end of sentence.

by docs on 2015/11/25 18:49:15

Doc: Yes, I saw those comments and am aware of those passages and a few others that say the same. Did you also see my return comments about if this was so, God fulfilling everything He promised, why hundreds of years later were the prophets repeating the theme of the people one day possessing the land in perpetuity and not just fleetingly for a brief period of time as in the days of Joshua?

Hi docs,

Let me just refer you to Oracio's comments on the same. I thought he covered it very well.

By "Perpetuity", do you mean eternally?

I have no problem speaking with you as you have always been kind, yet I too feel like I should limit my posts or at least keep them short.

All the best to you.

by Oracio on 2015/11/25 22:17:49

I guess my question is, is there any point in getting involved in a discussion in which there are two diametrically opposed views and in which neither party is open to changing their position no matter what?

Hi Oracio,

I feel if two sides are solidified in their views but extend Christian love and respect to each other that the discussion can be quite informative to the readers. I have watched or read several discussions where the two sides are staunch in their beliefs and since there were no distractions I was able to concentrate on the content and then make up my own mind.

The purpose of discussions should never be to change someone but rather to seek the truth together and when truth (revelation) is found each person should be open to letting the truth change them.

I would love to hear someone's thoughts on the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel. Proudpapa had asked the question twice. I will say right of the bat that I am not solidified in my beliefs and would like to hear people who are very informed about the subject.

Gary,

It would be helpful in future discussions to not accuse one another of having an "agenda". There is nothing wrong with taking a side and saying "this is what I believe". Once you judge a person's heart by saying they have an "agenda", you are taking sides and I submit that is not the best way to take a side. It just ruins the conversation because it calls into doubt the other person's motives. That's uncool and could be seen as an agenda in itself to shut down a thread. So, let's continue to move on and not revert to that kind of language again.

Julius21
Member

Re:\tReply To This Post | Edit |
Gary,

I will explain them to you, later. Got a busy day ahead of me.

My only agenda is the Word of God. We can do this without being ugly.

_________________
J

2015/11/25 8:12\tProfile
brothagary
Member

Re:\tReply To This Post |
I don't no what your trying to say with those verse ......, Christ is the son of David ,that is who is spoken of in those verses , in jeramya

Ya all over shop mincing verses from other prophecys,,, and sayingJacobs trouble is not a phiscal reality ,,,brothers that's really poor exegesis ,obviously done to suit a preconceived theology or frame work that you don't want contradicted ,,,it obvious .......,

Hmmmm, I was 99% positive you used the word "agenda" in your post. That is why I replied, "My only agenda is the Word of God." But even using the phrase "preconceived theology or framework" is a misleading charge against me. If we can just be polite and not cast aspersions on other people's motives, it will be healthy for conversation.

My apologies for saying you used the term " agenda".

That's cool, brother. I'm sure I would be grinning. :-)

Have a great day.

Zionism Refuted With Scripture - Full Sermon - Christians Are God's Chosen People. http://youtu.be/08v3R0Wrkqo

The Hope of Israel
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/