Is the Church Israel?

That is right, Yuehan.

The "people of God” in the old covenant were the Israelites who were divinely selected to provide the physical prefiguring of God’s intent in His Son, and the "people of God” in the new covenant are those who are identified with the Son as Christians. Later in the epistle Paul will quote from the prophecy of Jeremiah indicating that in the promised new covenant, when God puts His Spirit and laws into the hearts of those receptive to His Son, "I will be their God, and they shall be My people” (8:10; Jer. 31:33). The apostle Peter explained to the Christians to whom he wrote, ‘You are a people for God’s own possession...; you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God” (I Pet. 2:9,10; cf. Ezek. 37:23; Hosea 1:10). Christians are the new covenant "people of God,” the spiritual fulfillment of Israel (Rom. 9:6,7; Gal. 6:16) and the people known as true Jews (Rom. 2:28,29). And a "true Jew" is obviously a member of spiritual Israel.

There remained available to the Christians of Jerusalem the opportunity to participate in the Sabbath rest of God, to cease from all their striving to please God by keeping the Law, to refrain from trying to bring into being what they might have perceived to be God’s plan to reestablish the nation of Israel, and to restfully enjoy God’s grace moment-by-moment of every day. Such a Sabbath rest remains available to the Christian "people of God” in every age.

Edit:

I know why it is offensive, but I don't know why it is offensive to Christians, who are now part of the household of Israel. I even know many Messianic Jews that are not offended by it and in fact know that the Church is spiritual Israel. If the Church, the people of God are not spiritual Israel then who can be? No one else are the children of God except the true circumcision.

Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

If a Jew gets saved, is he still only a member of national Israel, or is he a member of spiritual Israel, too? Oh, that's right, there is no such thing as spiritual Israel.

So, he is a member of national Israel and the church, just like I am a member of America and the church, I guess.

No Dave, the Church is not national Israel or natural Israel. It is spiritual Israel. Hope that's clear.

"I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this.”

”“Charles H. Spurgeon

"To argue that God replaced Israel with the church is to depart from an enormous body of biblical evidence.”

”“Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.

"Supersessionism is the view that the New Testament Church supersedes, replaces, or fulfills the nation Israel’s place and role in the plan of God. I am convinced that supersessionism / replacement theology is an unbiblical doctrine that violates clear statements in both the Old and New testaments that teach and affirm a national salvation and restoration of Israel. Below are twelve reasons why supersessionism violates the biblical witness:

1. The Old Testament explicitly teaches the restoration of the nation Israel.

2. The Old Testament explicitly promises the perpetuity of the nation Israel (see Jer. 31:35-37).

3. The New Testament reaffirms the Old Testament expectation of a salvation and restoration of Israel.

4. The New Testament explicitly states that the Old Testament promises and covenants to Israel are still the possession of Israel even during this church age and even while the nation is currently in a state of unbelief (see Romans 9:3b-4).

5. The New Testament indicates that God is faithful to Israel because of His promises to the patriarchs of Israel (Romans 11:28).

6. The New Testament indicates that Israel’s election/calling is irrevocable (Romans 11:29; see also Deuteronomy 7:6-8).

7. The New Testament never uses the term "Israel” for those who are not ethnic Jews. Thus, the church is never called "Israel.”

8. Supersessionists have failed to show that the New Testament identifies the church as "Israel.”

9. Supersessionists have failed to show that the New Testament reinterprets or alters the original OT prophecies in regard to Israel. The alleged "NT Priority” approach of Supersessionism is really ‘structural supersessionism’””a hermeneutic that does not allow the OT passages to speak to the issues they address.

10. Supersessionists have failed to show that unity between Jews and Gentiles in the church rules out a future restoration of the nation Israel.

11. Israelite language applied to believing Gentiles does not mean the church is Israel.

12. New Testament prophecy refers to Israel, thus indicating that God’s plan for Israel is alive."

Amen!

We will have to agree to disagree without being disagreeable, as we believe the purposes and intentions of God is to restore all men (as many who will answer) to Himself.

This is not an issue of salvation and you are my brothers in Christ.

Oracio,

Here is the link Proudpapa posted.

http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/product3404.html

Proudpapa, meant to thank you for that link. I am going to buy that book.

I read Galatians 6:16 on my own and with the help of the Holy Spirit came to the conclusion that the Israel of God is the Church. Who else is of God according to the Word? Is there someone else?

1 John 4:6
WE ARE OF God: he that knoweth God heareth us; HE THAT IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:19
And we know that WE ARE OF GOD, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Neil

The devil also quotes the scriptures as this person does, twisting and perverting the Word of the Lord.

Whatever "holy spirit" this person is being taught and mis-led by is an imposter.

It is another spirit is at work here and even the moderators will see through it as well eventually. This is beyond mere doctrinal differences.

this is a full fledged outright demonic attack on SI.

hey Oracio, you wouldn't be street preaching with Rueben and BroJed Jesse Morrel out there in south central and LA?

you a pelagian?

This is not an attack. This is called a discussion. If you are unable to discuss then peacefully bow out and participate in other threads. Whenever you get to the point where you want to call people names, that is a good indication that you should leave the thread to people that want to discuss the scriptures. So far, only docs shows himself capable of discussing without reverting to name calling, so please leave and trust God to take care of His Church.

than may God bless your Words of Life on the streets of LA.

(I was ministering to the white creek homeless and Latino day laborer;s in Topanga Cyn from 2002-2005,

May God bless your efforts, neil

by Oracio on 2015/11/24 17:
Ultimately, our Lord Jesus Christ is the True Israel. It’s all about Him. It all points to Him. He is the Ultimate Fulfillment. We need not look for any other. His kingdom is not of this world. If it were so His servants would fight physically for it by His biding.

Why should we not be content with Jesus and His kingdom made up of Jew and Gentile? Isn’t Jesus enough? Why should we demand an earthly piece of land in the Middle East when all the Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles were not looking for such a land but for a better country?

Sadly, it seems that many diminish all that our Lord has already accomplished in the New Covenant. As if Jesus is not sufficient. They say in effect, "No, we want an earthly kingdom, an earthly land with earthly wealth.” But that’s what many in the time of Christ were guilty of, including the Apostles. We see that they were so preoccupied with such an idea of an earthly kingdom during that time. Many were so preoccupied with that idea that they cried out, "Crucify Him, crucify Him” when they saw that our Lord did not come to set up such a kingdom. They could not imagine a spiritual kingdom. Even in Acts 1 (before the Holy Ghost came upon them) they still didn’t get it. It took the power of the Spirit to fall upon them mightily to get them over that preoccupation with an earthly kingdom.

Best post all day!!!

Jesus is the True Israel of God and we are in Him.

It's all about Him.

Well, it seems we all just need to agree to disagree without being disagreeable and be at peace. Glad to see you two are good with each other.

?

by Oracio on 2015/11/24 18:34:00

Thanks Julius. Though I do believe and hope that that post was by the leading of the Lord, I know it's easy to cross the line sometimes.

Absolutely! Seems the consensus of the Church is to move on to other topics.

do you have children?

the only reason I ask is that, I trust you saw the grim news today, a Turkish F-16 sent a pair of Sidewinder missiles into a Russian Mig-24, shooting it down, both pilots elected safely, but as they parachuted earthbound, they were murdered in air by jihadists, which is a direct violation of the Geneva convention.

Pray that President Putin maintains a level head, this kind of occurrence is just the spark that starts global warfare.

Israel in the Old Testament was a "picture" people that God used to illustrate what He would do by means of His resurrection in raising up a people for His own possession. The apostle Peter describes the Church as, "A spiritual house, a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Pet 2:5)

Peter continues, "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" (1 Pet 2:9)

The word Gentiles in 1 Pet 2:12 is ethnos (tribe, heathen, nation, people). As the Holy Nation of God (Israel of God, Gal 6:16)) we are to walk uprightly (in Christ) amongst the unbelieving nations/people which includes national Israel.

1Pet 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Jacob fought with God, then surrendered to God, having been conquered by the Lord. His name was then changed to Israel.

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. (Today, Believers in Christ have spiritual "power with God and with men").

The physical nation of Israel in the Old Testament represented a people "set apart" to function as God intended, but they failed because of unbelief and disobedience (Heb. 3:16-4:6).

Through the resurrection of Jesus, the receiving of His Spirit and being joined to the Lord by His Spirit, all Christians become the "set apart" ones, the people of God, or "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16; Rom. 9:6);

The Church (called out ones) are "set apart" to function as God predestined them to function in Christ. He did not predestine who would be saved but how we would function in Christ by His Spirit. Collectively, people who are functioning "in Christ" are called "Israel". They have fought with God. Subsequently, they surrendered to God having been conquered by Him, SPIRITUALLY.

The resurrection of Christ gives the Church an eternal perspective on who the spiritual people of Israel are.

You never stop with your anti-Israel, anti-Jewish perverting of the scriptures do you?
Topic had died but you have to keep bringing up your twisted views over
and over again,

Maybe the question of this thread is not carefully chosen and can cause a bit of a confusion.Trying to add a bit of clarity without making things more complicated.

"Church" means Ekklesia, a group of people that are called out.
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church. Matthew 16:18
That keeps it very simple. Everyone that the Lord Himself calls out from this world is part of His Ekklesia.
This has nothing to do with our DNA or who our ancestors are etc.

But the Ekklesia is NOT the same as the Kingdom of God.
We know that we will also "see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God "Luke 13:28
That would confirm that any OT saint will by faith by part of the Kingdom, ultimately it will be one Kingdom and Jesus as King of Kings.

Hi Markus,

The church includes Old Testament and New Testament Saints.

Acts 7:37
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him (Jesus) shall ye hear.
Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.

The NT Church is a continuation of the "church in the wilderness" and all those who have the faith of Abraham.

All of God's called out ones, that He set apart for Himself, make up the holy nation of spiritual Israel, the Church. (See Hebrews 11, the faith chapter)

That is why Paul says, "not all Israel are Israel", he is differentiating between those of the faith of Abraham and those who are children of the flesh. See Gal. 4.

Jews that have become Christians did not stop being Israel, they became part of spiritual Israel, now.

The children of the flesh always persecute the children of the Spirit.

Galatians 4:28-29
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Note: Children of the Spirit, (faith of Abraham) do not persecute others.

You never stop with your anti-Israel, anti-Jewish perverting of the scriptures do you?
Topic had died but you have to keep bringing up your twisted views over
and over again,

why would he stop? that would mean he'd have to disobey his true father, the father of all lies, spreading such apostate filthy theology such as "replacement theology".

I know he has no Fear of God, because he keeps referring to "National Israel", when the Prophets foretold of both us Jews BACK in the Land, and foretold of the Suffering Servant, who is Messiah Jesus, ingrafting the Nations into the Vine, such Nations up until that time, rank pagan idol worshippers....then the Jewish Messiah Jesus comes with the express Purpose of gathering both Jew and Gentile (the nations) freeing even this son of the dark's forefathers from the futility of idol worship, into the Arms of Yawhen, where Jesus, who as the Suffering Servant came as the Last Passover Lamb, shed the Precious Blood that is wholly sufficient to cleanse all from all sin......and to spread such wicked apostate lies such as "replacement theology and deny that Israel is NOT of God, by calling the Nation, "National Israel" is an affrontery and DENIAL of both Yahweh's Word and Yahweh's Power.

he should be quaking witlessly with the Fear of God for spreading such lies, but quite obviously he has imbibed the lies of satan like wine, being drunk with his apostasy and arrogance.

But God is loving and slow to anger, giving even fools time to repent from their lies and wickedness.

its late and I am just weary from this clearly "agenda' driven posting, God love you and Messiah keep you, neil

My purpose is as always, to make a stand for the truth of God's Word.

It was revealed unto the apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit that God's purpose from eternity was to have a chosen people upon this earth at all times until the Lord's return, and that this would be both Jews and Gentiles brought into one body, the church, of which Christ was the head: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him" (Eph 1:9-10). He continues to show that the middle wall of partition had been broken down between Jew and Gentile, the enmity between them abolished and that they had, by the grace of God through the atoning work of Christ, been made one in Him, and thereby make up the true Israel of God (2:14-15). He adds that God's purpose "that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel" (3:5,6,10) the same as the Jews, thus making the true Israel of God those who had been made new creatures in Christ Jesus by the new birth and who were now spiritual Israel.

Now turning to the fourth chapter of Galatians, verses 21-31 bring before us Abraham's two sons. The one was by the bondwoman, Hagar, born after the flesh; the other by a free woman, Sarah, born by promise. The story shows in an allegory the difference between unbelieving "Israel after the flesh," and those of all nations who know Christ, have yielded to His claims, and thereby been made free. The apostle shows that the son of the bondwoman pictures the children of "Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children," while the son of the free woman pictures the church: "Jerusalem which is above," which is free and "is the mother of us all."

Thus Paul teaches that believers, as Isaac was, are the children of promise; but with respect to the unbelieving children of the flesh, the Scriptures say: "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman" (Gal 4:30). In other words, as far as God's eternal purpose is concerned, cast out, remove from consideration the physical, political nation of Israel and her unsaved citizens; for the inheritance belongs to spiritual Israel and not to natural Israel. Paul closes that 4th chapter with these gracious words: "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman," for the flesh profiteth nothing, "but of the free," because Christ has made us free in Him.

So we see then that now and forever it is only of believers that it can be said: "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Rom 8:14), and"the Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom 8:16-17). "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God" (Gal 6:15-16). To be a child of God, and of the true Israel of God, we can be so only by being a new creation in Christ.

After Paul spent one whole letter showing that Israel after the flesh is nothing, that only new creations in Christ avail, that these Judaizers profit nothing, that God now deals with His true Israel, the spiritual seed of Abraham ~then he says: "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus" (6:17). He is saying: I bear in my heart the mark of circumcision by the Spirit, and in my body the marks of the sufferings for the cause of Christ, as I have been persecuted by the Jews, the children of Abraham born after the flesh; so never speak to me again that Israel after the flesh is God's chosen people, for they are not.

Jesus Christ is Head of a spiritual race of people made up of both Jew and Gentile alike which are now "new creations". This spiritual race of people are the True Israel of God.

L.R. Shelton is a man of God published on SermonIndex. If you would like to read the rest of his sermon, you can read it here. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/israel2.html

No your purpose is to promote your anti-semitic views using a religion as the veneer. You sound like a mouthpiece for satan. Please go away

I'm only quickly trying to reply to what Julius said to me:
Quote: "the church includes Old Testament and New Testament Saints....Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS"
We have two problems here, 1. "Church " is not a proper translation and causes confusion.
2. Jesus said that He is about to build something ( HIS Ekklesia ) and He became the Chief Cornerstone of that building. You can't be a Chief Cornerstone of an already existing building.
Just my views, I will not get further drawn into this.

May His Bride one day be spotless ! All Glory to the Lamb that was slain!
Blessings to all !

Hi Markus,

Jesus Christ was the head cornerstone in the OT, too. We have to keep Jesus Christ central to all things whether in the NT or OT. Without keeping Jesus Christ as the center of the Word of God, we will not understand it, correctly.

Psalm 118:22 THE STONE which the builders refused IS BECOME THE HEADSTONE OF THE CORNER. (Cornerstone)

and in Zechariah.

Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the HEADSTONE thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Peter was quoting what was known in the Old Testament.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The Cornerstone of the "Building of God" is Jesus Christ and God has been building since Genesis. Abraham was a "called out one", who was looking for a "City whose builder and Maker was God." Abraham is part of the "Building of God", whose and the Cornerstone is Jesus Christ.

by markuskiwi on 2015/12/2 18:45:11

I'm only quickly trying to reply to what Julius said to me:
Quote: "the church includes Old Testament and New Testament Saints....Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS"
We have two problems here, 1. "Church " is not a proper translation and causes confusion.
2. Jesus said that He is about to build something ( HIS Ekklesia ) and He became the Chief Cornerstone of that building. You can't be a Chief Cornerstone of an already existing building.
Just my views, I will not get further drawn into this.

May His Bride one day be spotless ! All Glory to the Lamb that was slain!
Blessings to all !

Markus, don't apologize or be intimidated. You are a good brother and allowed to share the word of God with us.

on Feb 2nd of this year 2015, Oracio Sandoval began a thread that 8 pages later had to be locked by Greg Gordon, and the original post by Mr. Sandoval was entitled .......

"The True Israel of God by L. R. Shelton Jr."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=54107&forum=36&start=70&viewmode=flat&order=1

and this is EXACTLY the same article the poster known as Julius, just linked to buttress his CLEAR AGENDA.....both the same filth, from this apostate "preacher" in a thread 10 months apart!

How long Greg?....weren't you the one that was so adamant about "strong leadership" and not tolerating posters with agenda?

Oracio Sandoval and Julius have just been relentless over a LONG period to foist "replacement theology" on this forum.

the only reason I found the earlier LOCKED thread was that I googled "L.R. Shelton replacement theology" and the locked thread was hit number 5 or 6. Now if you agree with "replacement theology", that's fine, this is YOUR cyber property, but make a stand, either way. Its so obvious these two posters have agenda, divisive agenda....and are just relentless in their postings of this really really bad theology.

so , make a stand.

Greg did not lock the thread because of the article posted by Oracio. I think you are misrepresenting him. I believe he locked it because of the incessant, immature "wringing of the hands" by you and a couple of others. It is a very good tactic and often works. It wears everyone down and to bring peace Greg will acquiesce to you. Your juvenile behaviour is astounding.

If you succeed Neil, which I fully expect you to, an important part of the Word of God can no longer be discussed. I have already resigned in my heart that you will succeed. That's ok. The Word of God is the Word of God and neither you nor I can change it.

You have not engaged in biblical discourse and pointed out one thing that we speak of that is incorrect from the perspective of the Scriptures. You are just resort to juvenile fits.

What you are trying to shut down, colors the whole Word of God. Why does Greg have to make a stand. He does not have to do anything of the sort. This is forum where brothers discuss, not accuse, or make threats.

Neil stated

"How long Greg?....weren't you the one that was so adamant about "strong leadership" and not tolerating posters with agenda?"

It is clearly an anti _Jewish, anti-God, anti Jesus agenda. We saw it months ago
and this evil and wicked twisting of God's Word should no longer be tolerated,

BECAUSE it fosters hatred and then much worse towards God's people as history so clearly shows.

You have not yet backed up your invective, NDY. You are just engaging in heinous name calling. Is this all you have to offer? Greg already warned you several times about using such words and disrespecting others.

I'm done with this thread, but I will continue to speak the truth of God's Word and I am always open to constructive feedback.

the Lord JESUS CHRIST rebuke you satan

And may the Lord bless and prosper you and Neil.

you lie, I did not participate in that feb 15 thread, and I only read Shelton's replacement theology, and I certainly wont participate in the "dueling Scripture" religious hobby that so many engage in, i'm assuming they enjoy such, because of religious pride, ie, "flashing" Scriptural Knowledge.

You have no idea my Consumption of the Word of God, besides, your utterly relentless pursuit of this hellish theology seems to be a sort of weird passive-aggressive religious cyber bullying.

let me ask you a question, what have you and your forefathers done over 1700 years of blood soaked "church" history done to make the tribe of my flesh, the Jews, "envious of so great a salvation"? in light of the river of our blood shed at the hands of so many false "christian's" with their murders, pogroms, forced conversions, inquistions.....don't answer the question, you'd either have to hang your head in shame Or deny generational accountability.

why not do this?....why not join a nest of replacement theolgists on the internet? it would be more FUN and ENJOYABLE for you, instead of putting up with us "juveniles", who don't heap praise on your every writing.

"This article from L.R. Shelton has some of the classic doctrines of replacement theology; Basically the teaching is that Israel is replaced by the Church and spiritualizes away hope for Israel in the present and future as a
distinct and separate people from all the other nations as the Bible clearly states numerous times,

This doctrine will never line up with Romans 11 and many other scriptures,
God has not cast away His people (Israel), and affirms the continuing distinct role that Israel plays in God’s plan for the present and future.

Not all followers of this doctrine are anti-semites but many are.
This false doctrine seeks to replace the Natural Branches (Israel) with the Church (what they will often refer to as "true Israel") even denies the literal return, rule and reign of Christ and His future earthly Kingdom

Shelton also denies the second coming of Jesus,He states....

"..... It is equally wrong to believe that He will come a second time to rule with a "literal" rod of iron and to reform society by enforcing high moral and ethical standards that the world otherwise was, and is, unwilling to obey."

Absolutely wrong. . As Jesus stated plainly in the scriptures he will return again a second time literally and bodily and will rule forever and ever.

if he holds to replacement theology, he is apostate.

et me ask you a question, what have you and your forefathers done over 1700 years of blood soaked "church" history done to make the tribe of my flesh, the Jews, "envious of so great a salvation"? in light of the river of our blood shed at the hands of so many false "christian's" with their murders, pogroms, forced conversions, inquisitions.....don't answer the question, you'd either have to hang your head in shame Or deny generational accountability.

You can't hold me accountable for Satan's work in those men anymore than I can hold you accountable for Satan's work through Saul who hunted down early Church, Jewish Christians.

With all due respect, Neil. All of your words that I have read show that you live on the plane of the flesh. You try to guilt people based on what others did (which only comes from the Accuser of the Brethren) and you intimidate and slander. This is all fleshly. I am not related to these "forefathers" as you say. I am related to Jesus Christ. I am born of Him, His Spirit. I don't hang my head in shame being related to Jesus Christ, because there is therefore no longer any condemnation on me. The "root of Jesse" is the root of my family tree.

by Notdarkyet on 2015/12/2 20:36:36

Shelton also denies the second coming of Jesus,He states....

"..... It is equally wrong to believe that He will come a second time to rule with a "literal" rod of iron and to reform society by enforcing high moral and ethical standards that the world otherwise was, and is, unwilling to obey."

Absolutely wrong. . As Jesus stated plainly in the scriptures he will return again a second time literally and bodily and will rule forever and ever.

I don't know what Shelton believes regarding Jesus coming again, but from what I read in the context above, he is saying he does not believe the scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is going to reestablish the physical Davidic Kingdom on earth and reform society, enforcing outward behaviors, since the Kingdom of God is already established and being built, a spiritual kingdom, full of "just men made perfect", by the Spirit of God.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Rev 20

4 And I saw thrones and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, nor had received his mark upon their foreheads or on their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I will take the Word Of God over the apostates opinions thank you very much

1. The site moderators ask before you post that you consider praying and ask the Lord if you have the right spirit to serve one another and edify others before posting.

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Just a question. I apply it to myself as well.

Bearmaster

Truth is never harmed by questions. Provided those questions are posed in dialogue in a respectful way. It has been consistently said in this forum that we play the ball not the man.

To see brothers name calling. Rebuking one another as Satan in the name of Christ grieves thr Spirit. This goes beyond healthy debate and discussion. This gets into the camp of the enemy.

Is any doctrine so important that brothers must must divide and name call one another? Brothers we all are members of this forum. I posted previously the three guidelines that go below each post. We need to go back and review the protocols of this forum. I say we because I'm a member of the forum also. Thus I need to make it a point to review those questions before I hit that submit button.

Brothers I am pleading with you that you repent before each other. And come together again as brothers in Christ at the cross. The only one who is getting victory in this thread is Satan through the division and strife.

Let us remember that the enemy is not each other. Satan is laughing in glee at the name calling that is taking place here. Bretheren don't you see that the devil is the enemy. Satan has masterfully manipulated each of you to look at one another as the enemy. It is the devil that is getting victory in this thread.

My brothers I implore you. Go before God and ask forgiveness for this division. And then ask one another for forgiveness. And then love God and love one another. And then turn and kick the devil back to the cross where he was defeated.

Remember these threads are read around the world. They may be read by Christiane in restricted nations. Thus they begin to wonder what type of Christiane live in America. My brothers I implore you to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace. No doctrine. No doctrine. Is worth this devision and strife.

Brothers I implore you as your brother in Christ. Repent before God. Repent before one another. And love and build up one another. You are men of God. You are brothers in Christ. Please don't let this forum fall into the trap of Satan. I employ you to encourage one another. Build up one another.

It would be pretty embarrassing if we all were rounded up and put into a death camp. Only to be debating this issue on the way to the guillotine.

My brother's I encourage you to walk in love with one another. Let us all go to the cross. For at the cross where Jesus hung for our sins is all that matters.

Your brother in Christ,

Blaine

Yes, Bear, truth is never harmed by questions:

One thing that has not been dealt with is that the first coming of Christ is man's only chance of salvation (Jew and Gentile). At His second coming, no one can be saved. This would be a good, new thread to start.

Let's see who believes in so-called Replacement Theology: Take the following test.

If you answer YES to the following, then you believe in "Replacement Theology".

…you believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today: Romans 2:28-29: "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. ", "for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, " (Philippians 3:3)

…you believe that Israel is the church: "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel [church] of God." (Galatians 6:15-16) The peace in this passage is for those who walk according to Christ so CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that utterly rejects Christ.

…you believe Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved and are as lost as Muslims and atheists until they do. (Jn 3:16; Jn 14:6)

…you believe the New Testament (second covenant) of Jesus Christ replaced the Old Testament (first covenant) Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13

…you believe that keeping both the First and Second covenants at the same time is like a woman married to two men at the same time (Romans 6:1-7)

…you believe the body of the Christian is the temple that God dwells in today not some building made of stone, wood or curtains. (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20)

…you believe the Saturday Sabbath was abolished and Christians worship on the first day of the week (Sunday).

…you believe the calendar of 7 Jewish feasts do not have to be kept by Christians: Passover (Pesach), Unleavened Bread (Chag Hamotzi), First Fruits (Yom habikkurim), Pentecost (Shavu'ot), Trumpets (Yom Teru'ah), Atonement (Yom Kippur), Tabernacles (Sukkot).

…you believe that the entire law of Moses has been abrogated and replaced by the law of Christ and that if you want to keep just one part of the law of Moses, YOU MUST KEEP IT ALL!

…if you believe that you do not need to be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15:1-3

…if you believe there is no distinction in the mind of God towards all men: Jew or gentile, rich or poor, male or female (Gal 3:28-29)

If anyone thinks Replacement Theology is different than this, that would be a good discussion. What statements does anyone disagree with?

Most people if not all on SI will agree with these statements. There you go, this is what "Replacement Theology" is and what most of the Churches believe because it is the Word of God. Most people do not even know they have been labeled with this term, yet they believe everything above that is written.

I cannot take credit for these statements. They came from: http://www.bible.ca/premillennialism-rapture-replacement-theology-supersessionism-christians-are-jews-church-is-israel.htm

Someday, we all shall stand before the Judgment seat to account before Yahweh, the LORD, for every word, deed, and for most this will be a wrenching experience.

for me, it will be, and for you Julius, it will be. In the Deep Things of God, it is unavoidable, it is necessary, it is good, a veritable Refiner's Fire.

Now, as my Counselor, God the Holy Ghost, who lives in me, instructs me, leads me, I have always been very wary of men, who are so driven by their singular "ists" or "isms" or "theologies" as opposed to the Blessed Joy of Loving God, Loving Messiah, being able to listen to the Small Still Voice of God the Holy Ghost, or tarrying for the ongoing Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which goes under the terminology of "progressive sanctification"....

Now many men go thru seminaries, engaging in the learning of theology. Who I am to say, right or wrong? but what about the "Seminary of Tears"?.....or the "Seminary of the Desolate Place"? the "Seminary of the Prayer Closet"?

in short, eschewing ALL the vain thoughts of men, with the Blessed Ministry of the Excellency of KNOWING GOD, in intimate Discourse, and relationship, dead unto your own flesh and knowledge...and absolutely DEPENDENT on God?

there are a FEW human vessels of Christ and Him Crucified, God the Holy Ghost has led me to, older brothers, some with the Lord, some still down here on earth, and thru the technology (recordings) God has given us, they teach me, and edify me, used of God, and I want to share JUST ONE with you, Brother Len Ravenhill's powerful provoking message, "The Excellency of Knowing God"....and nooo, i'm not so craven as to post up a direct refutation of "replacement theology", i'm just praying hope upon hope, that you will just take the time to prayerfully listen to this, its about an hour plus......I even BEG you, please just listen to Brother Len speak on the "Excellency of Knowing God" and just let the Wind of the Spirit blow thru your heart, it will not disappoint, I speak the Truth in Christ, I am not lying:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=20359

you don't have to "report back to me", you don't have to "agree or disagree" with me, because who I am?....a blade of grass, that's all...just listen to this man of God, a dear soul.

and while, since I cant (wont) play the exercise of "dueling verses", you might think, I don't eat of the Whole Word of God, that is wrong, as I do, as a man famished, I just don't feel the need to prove i'm "right"....so there it is, just one humble request, just stop and listen to brother Len...okay?

may God love you, neil

I agree with Blains comments:
" My brothers I implore you to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace. No doctrine. No doctrine. Is worth this devision and strife.
I employ you to encourage one another. Build up one another..."

The unity, the testimony, the Glory of our Lord and the advancement of His Kingdom should be far more important then to try and prove who has the "right " theology.
You can't put my theology in a box. In simple words it would probably be : "for me to live is Christ..."
God has given us His Word so we can "be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. "

Unity is not in a doctrine , it is only in Christ "for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

I have no desire to discuss that article but i still would like to point out a few important points.
" Church " is not the correct translation.
What is a "Christian "?
"The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. "Acts 11 : 26
A "Christian " should therefore be a "learner and a follower " of Jesus Christ.
What is the Gospel:
"Gospel is a term used over 75 times in the New Testament. While it has various nuances of meaning, it's most fundamental meaning from the Greek is "good news." But good news of what? According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter Elwell, "the gospel is the joyous proclamation of God's redemptive activity in Christ Jesus on behalf of man enslaved by sin."

We should "seek first the Kingdom of God..." and to go out and share that "joyous proclamation of God's redemptive activity in Christ Jesus on behalf of man enslaved by sin."

Shouldn't the Lamb be glorified and get the reward for His suffering?

My final thoughts in this thread

I can't attest for anything else on that website. But his list was good (and I have to credit the source). Too many people have been called heinous names and even heretical and apostate and had labels thrown at them. The moderators have been more than gracious towards them, allowing good brothers to be slighted with their hostility and threats. But we forgive them and the moderators know this. I wanted to show that even the ones doing the name calling believe the things which I wrote, which are Biblical. Notice, they don't refute them.

When people constantly play the man and not the ball, as many have alluded to, this shows who has the real agenda. Imagine if we could no longer speak about anything in the list (below), anymore. We are in effect, banning important parts of the New Testament for discussion.

That is my final word in this particular thread, too. (Unless people want to discuss the list. Don't be intimidated by these people). What example are we to unbelievers when we intimidate and threaten others?

So you don't have to search for the list that I am talking about, here it is again.

…you believe the Bible when it says Christians are the true Jews today: Romans 2:28-29: "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. ", "for we [Christians] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, " (Philippians 3:3)

…you believe that Israel is the church: "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel [church] of God." (Galatians 6:15-16) The peace in this passage is for those who walk according to Christ so CANNOT refer to fleshly/physical Israel that utterly rejects Christ.

…you believe Jews must believe in Jesus to be saved and are as lost as Muslims and atheists until they do. (Jn 3:16; Jn 14:6)

…you believe the New Testament (second covenant) of Jesus Christ replaced the Old Testament (first covenant) Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13

…you believe that keeping both the First and Second covenants at the same time is like a woman married to two men at the same time (Romans 6:1-7)

…you believe the body of the Christian is the temple that God dwells in today not some building made of stone, wood or curtains. (1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20)

…you believe the Saturday Sabbath was abolished and Christians worship on the first day of the week (Sunday).

…you believe the calendar of 7 Jewish feasts do not have to be kept by Christians: Passover (Pesach), Unleavened Bread (Chag Hamotzi), First Fruits (Yom habikkurim), Pentecost (Shavu'ot), Trumpets (Yom Teru'ah), Atonement (Yom Kippur), Tabernacles (Sukkot).

…you believe that the entire law of Moses has been abrogated and replaced by the law of Christ and that if you want to keep just one part of the law of Moses, YOU MUST KEEP IT ALL!

…if you believe that you do not need to be circumcised to be saved. Acts 15:1-3

…if you believe there is no distinction in the mind of God towards all men: Jew or gentile, rich or poor, male or female (Gal 3:28-29)

I wrote a post to you below, where I try so hard to reach out, and seek SOME common ground in the Lord, and you just ignored it, instead regurgitating the same replacement theology error.

Narrowpath is EXACTLY correct in their forthtelling, you are here to sow mayhem and diviseness,

I cant tell whether this is mental illness, being used of satan, or a combination of both in your make up.

as a Jew who follows Messiah Jesus, I adjudge what you OPINE to be ABSOLUTELY non-Scriptural and twisted Scripture, and to quote Shoah(Holocaust)deniers?

only cowards do that in the relative anonymity and SAFETY of the internet.

Thanks for reaching out to me, Neil. I will listen to Lenny's message.

Heard David, his son speak not long ago and my family and I had lunch with him afterwards. I really appreciated his spirit. Very good fellowship.

Baloney is baloney no matter how you slice it

Mr Bill

These false doctrines left unchecked cause harm to God's
people These few individuals obviously have an an agenda underlying their supposed "theological" concerns. They do not get their doctrine from the Bible
but from some twisted interpretations of other writers.

You can see what this has done to the messianic brethren here,
Why let them continue in this obvious twisting of God's eternal Word?
This continual bashing of Israel is not just false doctrine but rather
an attempt to demonize, ostracize and abandon God's purposes.
Of course they will fail.

I have just been on an early morning bike ride, NZ time ; ) and had a bit time to reflect and meditate on this topic and the "heated " discussion we had so far. I feel there are a few more things the Lord still wants me to share. Please bear with me, please look up the Scriptures and see for yourself.
Daniel was in captivity in Babylon. we know that the Babyloniens served false God's and their "theology " must have been completely wrong.
But here is what Daniel said: 9v3 "Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. 4 And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, "O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, 5 we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments..."

Notice: "O Lord, great and awesome God...we have sinned and committed iniquity..."
He had the right view of God to start with and he did not blame the theology of the Babyloniens for the situation he was in.

The "remedy " that God has to heal us and our nations is found in 2 Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land

This is where we need to start ! Trying to tell me who i need to support and what "theology " i need to have is not found in the Bible .

However I'm very thankful for true believers to correct me with the aim to bring me closer TO GOD, in deeper fellowship with my Lord and as a result with each other.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.Colossians 3:16

1. Matthew Poole (1624”“1679) [On Romans 11:26]:

By Israel here (as in the precedent verse) you must understand, the nation and people of the Jews. And by all Israel is not meant every individual Israelite, but many, or (it may be) the greatest part of them…. These prophecies and promises [from Isaiah 27:9; 59:20 and Jer. 31:33], though they were in part fulfilled when Christ came in the flesh, (see Acts 3:26,) yet there will be a more full and complete accomplishment thereof upon the Jewish nation and people towards the end of the world.

1. Increase Mather (1639”“1723):

That there shall be a general conversion of the tribes of Israel, is a truth which in some measure hath been known and believed in all ages of the church of God, since the Apostles’ days.

3. Matthew Henry (1662”“1714):

Another thing that qualifies this doctrine of the Jews rejection is that though for the present they are cast off, yet the rejection is NOT final; but, when the fullness of time is come, they will be taken in again. They are not cast off for ever, but mercy is remembered in the midst of wrath…. The Jews shall continue in blindness, till God hath performed his whole work among the Gentiles, and then their turn will come next to be remembered. This was the purpose and ordination of God, for wise and holy ends; things should not be ripe for the Jews’ conversion till the church was replenished with the Gentiles, that it might appear that God’s taking them again was not because he had need of them, but of his own free grace.

4. Cotton Mather (1663”“1728):

This day, from the Dust, where I lay prostrate before the Lord, I lifted up my Cries … for the conversion of the Jewish nation, and for my own having the Happiness, at some time or other, to Baptize a Jew that should by my ministry be brought home unto the Lord.

5. Thomas Boston (1676”“1732):

There is a day coming when there shall be a national conversion of the Jews or Israelites. The now blinded and rejected Jews shall at length be converted into the faith of Christ.

6. James Robe (1688”“1753):

Me thinks I hear the nation of the Jews (for such is the cry of their case) crying aloud to you from their dispersion, … we have now been rejected of God for more than sixteen hundred years, because of our unbelief, and for this long, very long while, wrath to the uttermost hath been lying upon us! There are many promises and predictions that we shall be grafted in again…. Pray therefore, and wrestle with God, that he may, according to his promise, pour forth upon the Spirit of grace and supplication, that we may look upon him whom we have pierced, and mourn.

7. John Gill (1697”“1771):

And so all Israel shall be saved. … Meaning not the mystical spiritual Israel of God, consisting both of Jews and Gentiles, who shall appear to be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, when all God’s elect among the latter are gathered in, which is the sense many give into; but the people of the Jews, the generality of them, the body of that nation, called "the fullness” of them, Romans 11:12, and relates to the latter day, when a nation of them shall be born again at once; … when they as a body, even the far greater part of them that shall be in being, shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their King; shall acknowledge Jesus to be the true Messiah, and shall look to him, believe on him, and be saved by him from wrath to come.

8. Jonathan Edwards (1703”“1758):

The Jews in all their dispersions shall cast away their old infidelity, and shall have their hearts wonderfully changed, and abhor themselves for their past unbelief and obstinacy. They shall flow together to the blessed Jesus, penitently, humbly, and joyfully owning him as their glorious King and only Savior, and shall with all their hearts, as one heart and voice, declare his praises unto other nations…. Nothing is more certainly foretold than this national conversion of the Jews in Romans 11.

9. Charles Hodge (1797”“1878):

The second great event, which, according to the common faith of the Church, is to precede the second advent of Christ, is the national conversion of the Jews…. The restoration of the Jews to the privileges of God’s people is included in the ancient predictions and promises made respecting them….The future restoration of the Jews is, in itself, a more probable event than the introduction of the Gentiles into the church of God.

10. Robert Murray M‘Cheynne (1813”“1843):

Converted Israel … will give life to the dead world…. Just as we have found, among the parched hills of Judah, that the evening dew, coming silently down, gave life to every plant, making the grass to spring and the flowers to put forth their sweetest fragrance, so shall converted Israel be when they come as dew upon a dead, dry world. The remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

11. J. C. Ryle (1816”“1900):

It always seemed to me that as we take literally the texts foretelling that the walls of Babylon shall be cast down, so we ought to take literally the texts foretelling that the walls of Zion shall be built up””that as according to prophecy the Jews were literally scattered, so according to prophecy the Jews will be literally gathered””and that as the least and minutest predictions were made good on the subject of our Lord’s coming to suffer, so the minutest predictions shall be made good which describe our Lord’s coming to reign. And I have long felt it is one of the greatest shortcomings of the Church of Christ that we ministers do not preach enough about this advent of Christ, and that private believers do not think enough about it.

12. Charles Spurgeon (1834”“1892):

I think we do not attach sufficient importance to the restoration of the Jews. We do not think enough of it. But certainly, if there is anything promised in the Bible it is this.
The day shall yet come when the Jews, who were the first Apostles to the Gentiles, the first missionaries to us, who were far off, shall be gathered in again. Until that shall be, the fullness of the Churches’ glory can never come. Matchless benefits to the world are bound up with the restoration of Israel; their gathering in shall be as life from the dead.

So, I guess the question arises, "Is there such a thing as a Spiritual Israel?" Obviously, there is a spiritual people of God, a holy nation of God, and members of "Jerusalem above". But is there any indication that anyone sees in the Word of God of such a thing as a "Spiritual Israel?"

Clearly the Church is not:
Physical Israel
Political Israel
Militarily Israel
National Israel
Unregenerate Israel

So, the answer there would be NO, the Church is not Israel to answer the OP directly (in those contexts).

Was physical Israel (the people of God) in the OT a type and foreshadowing of a spiritual Israel (people of God) or do you think there is no such thing as "spiritual Israel?"

This begs another question: Does Israel die out once a Jew gets saved, because He would be part of spiritual Israel once he is saved, but if there is no such thing as spiritual Israel, then in the spiritual realm at least, Israel ceases to exist for them and they are just part of the Church of God and I guess also part of the modern nation of Israel?

Do you follow what I am saying? All the thousands of Jews that got saved in the 1st century and in every century since then, are they not part of a spiritual Israel?

These are sincere questions, because what is Israel to a Jew after they are saved if there is no such thing as a spiritual Israel?

"these are sincere questions"....

uh-uh.

well, I would believe that, if you didn't so relentlessly, like twice a week, or more, "ask" these "sincere questions".

Its more like an inquisition, and I;m sure you know that word might mean to a Jew...or is it "ethnic" Jew, and how does one tell an "ethnic" Jew...(you know THEY are recognizable....right?)

or maybe an "ethnic" Jew is some "atheistic ZIONIST".....and you did "cite" that 85% of all "National" Israel are "atheists"....didn't cite your source material on that number, but any citations coming from you would highly suspect.

this morning I sent you an exhortation from Len Ravenhill,"The Excellency of Knowing God" and your response was telling, doing a little prideful religious name dropping, just had some "good fellowship" with his son David Ravenhill, make sure all us knew how high up the 'christian' food chain you are, i'd bet a $100 right now, you didn't even listen to it....oh i'm sorry, in the church of I-hate-you, we're not supposed to "gamble" are we.

Now, this "Israel of God" ummmm, which one of the 500 denominations are in it OR NOT? Roman Catholics, Greek and Russian orthodox, Jehovah's, Seventh Day's, Mormons, Coptics, United Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalian's....they're all in it?...aren't they?

But "ethnic Jews"?...like you wrote, if it wasn't for those fleshly Zionists, "National Israel", they should just be condemned to wander the earth for their deicide right?...you DID write that, didn't you?

keep it up pal.......hey and NICE leadership here, Greg...well what would I expect from you anyway?, guy that writes in a private email to me and terms Israel, a "wicked" nation.

keep it up ya'll.....oh , and Oracio, i'll get to you later, when we can discuss about "ethnic" Latinos and the heavy percentage of them who are romanists, bet you got a whole brood of family members trapped in rome, right?

i'll bet you are all sad faced and indignant at my harsh language....HARSH? i'll you what harsh is, harsh is over 1700 years of forced conversions, inquisitions, explusions, rape, murder, genocide, ALL at the hands of those who call themselves "christians" .

keep it up.

I did not know that there were Christians who believed that both covenants still exist side by side. I do know that there are Christians who are encouraging the Jewish people to rebuild the Temple and re institute the Temple sacrifices. I guess, that means they believe both covenants still co-exist. Stupid me, I never realized that.

So, if two covenants co-exist with one another, then if the Jews rebuild the Temple and institute the temple sacrifice is God obligated to honor the sacrifice of bulls and goats and forgive them? Wouldn't He be trampling on the blood of Christ Himself? Hebrews says Christ is the "better sacrifice".

Paul says the Old Covenant answers to "Jerusalem which now is" (or below) and is in bondage with her children. Why would God be supporting the Old Covenant? He would be supporting the Jewish people staying in bondage.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to JERUSALEM WHICH NOW IS, and IS IN BONDAGE WITH HER CHILDREN

He has brought a better covenant, and better promises to truly set men free. The Jews were looking for a Messiah that would set them free from their physical enemies and it seems they are still looking for a Messiah to do the same. Should the Church be encouraging Israel today about a physical Savior or a Spiritual Savior?

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER COVENANT, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The first covenant had a "WORLDLY SANCTUARY".
Heb 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a WORLDLY SANCTUARY.

God now dwells in "temples made without hands", and is our sanctuary and "true tabernacle".

Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the TRUE TABERNACLE, WHICH THE LORD PITCHED, and not man.

Perfection cannot come through the Levitical Priesthood, so if they rebuild the Temple and re-institute the Temple Sacrifice, it will only be an abomination in the sight of God, because THEY WILL BE REJECTING HIS SON AND THE SACRIFICE THAT HE MADE as the "Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world." So the priesthood was changed, the law was changed (written in our hearts) and the covenant was changed by the bringing in of a new covenant.

What further need is there for a New Covenant if perfection came from the Levitical priesthood?

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

The Old Covenant has actually been disannulled.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Christians that are pushing for the rebuilding of the Temple and searching for a Red Heifer without spot and blemish are doing the Jews a disservice, by keeping them in blindness. Disservice is too nice of a word, they are deceiving the Jewish people by agreeing with them in regards to the rebuilding of the Temple and staring up sacrifices, again.

All of these things in the OT were shadows and types and figures of Christ. The way into the HOLIEST OF ALL was not yet made manifest with the first tabernacle.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all WAS NOT YET MADE MANIFEST, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Report: State funds groups that advocate building Third Temple
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Report-State-funds-groups-that-advocate-building-Third-Temple-321990

The Temple Institute In Jerusalem Has Spent Approximately 27 Million Dollars On Preparations For The Rebuilding Of The Jewish Temple
http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/category/the-rebuilding-of-the-temple

The executive director of the Temple Institute, Yehuda Glick, says that a large portion of the financial support for the Temple Institute actually COME FROM EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS…..
http://www.theage.com.au/world/faithful-funds-help-museum-prepare-for-the-end-20091113-iert.html

The Sacrificial Altar Is Being Rebuilt For The Future Temple In Jerusalem
http://signsofthelastdays.com/archives/the-sacrificial-altar-is-being-rebuilt-for-the-future-temple-in-jerusalem

According to American fundamentalist Protestant author Hal Lindsey, the Third Temple could be built right next to the Dome of the Rock.[36] He believes, based on the theory of Dr. Asher Kaufman regarding the location of the Eastern Gate, that the Dome of the Rock was built on what the Bible refers to as the Court of the Gentiles. He states that according to Revelation 11:1”“2, the rebuilding of the Third Temple was not to include the section of the temple mount known as The Court of the Gentiles. Therefore, he believes that the Third Temple and the Dome of the Rock could stand side by side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple#Christian_views

Many Christians believe they can hasten the 2nd coming of Christ by rebuilding the Temple.

"Contemporary Christian "Zionists” have written on the rebuilding of the temple in Israel that would usher the second coming of Christ. These include Thomas Ice, Randall Price, Grant Jeffrey, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Dave Hunt, and John Hagee."

Randall Price, ‘The Coming Last Days Temple. In his book are contact details of all the Jewish organisations committed to rebuilding the Jewish Temple.

Charles Colson in his book Kingdoms in Conflict believes the Bible predicts the rebuilding of the Temple.

There is so much info on this, how could any one person make all of this up? Look at the links on the right of the page, below.
http://www.wnd.com/2015/03/holy-altar-constructed-for-third-jewish-temple/

Is this part of end times prophecy? Does anyone on SI believe that the Bible indicates that a 3rd Temple will be rebuilt and this is what will bring Jesus back?

Getting back on topic to "Is the Church Israel",

I recommend this article by Charles Alexander right here on SermonIndex. He is one of the "greatest Old Testament Exegete's of all time". I don't know how anyone can refute this brother's exegesis.

Why doesn't everyone take a breath (take some time) and read this link. To me it is the belwether of exegesis on this subject.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22430

He takes the reader through the scriptures and shows indisputably that the Church is Spiritual Israel.

Notable quotes:

THE TWO ISRAELS

AN EXPOSITION OF ROMANS 9 ”“ 11

"The Christian Church BEING THEN THE LEGITIMATE AND PROPER CONTINUATION OF ISRAEL, to it must belong most of the promises which, superficially examined, are supposed to furnish a pledge of the future salvation of the Jews. They have already found their fulfillment in the victorious career pursued by the Church through all the past centuries, in its irrepressible tendency to spread out to the very ends of the earth, in the spirit of reformation by which it is swayed, and in the light which arises to it ever afresh out of the darkness. In a word these promises are being fulfilled every day before our eyes.

"It is a sad denial of the grace vouchsafed by God to His Church, to refer the glorious promises of Scripture almost exclusively to the future, not to be able to follow out the hidden traces of divine blessing, both in the past and the present, to fail to discern in the Church the true Israel, AND IN ITS PLACE TO DRESS UP AN ISRAEL OF THE FANCY, OUT OF THE JEWS, TO SPEAK SLIGHTINGLY OF THE CHURCH, and contrast it with that Kingdom of God which is first to come when the Jews are converted.

"THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY SUBJECTIVE ABERRATIONS OF THE PRESENT DAY, which must vanish as soon as the Church has been awakened to a sounder estimate of its position and privileges. Indeed one might prophesy the downfall of these opinions from the circumstance of their late origin: they have against them the consentient voice of all the various sections of the entire Christian Church.

"A recent writer has said, ‘It is not to be denied that, for the Church as a whole, the Old Testament is of comparatively little use’. But then, by way of set-off we can console ourselves with the thought, that we are a community of heathens, and that is the necessary consequence of setting the Jews in the place of the Church of Christ. But the apostle teaches us that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. The scriptures of the O.T. to which these words primarily refer must have been differently interpreted by him who could speak in such a way.”

Dr. E. W. Hengstenberg, Berlin.
"The Jews and the Christian Church”
(Edinburgh translation, 1860).
HOW STRANGE!

If we needed a defense for taking up this subject of prophetical interpretation we have it in the words of the great doctor above. How strange that WE should be regarded as disturbers of peace for protesting vigorously against the un-scholarly and facile views of Biblical exposition today, when the entire evangelical world is in a state of acute decline after several generations of increasing ineptitude in the handling of the Word of God and after a brief era of gargantuan "Crusades” at the cost of millions of money, the net result of which is to leave the churches very much weaker than they were even ten years ago.

That we should have to explain ourselves to such an age as this, and defend ourselves against the charge of being disturbers of the peace (however false that peace may be) is to us a pathetic symptom of the sickness which prevails.

We have not sought this battle. Others have thrown down the gage. We have but taken it up, with much reluctance, but being persuaded that it is a task which has to be done, we intend with the help of God and the support of friends who long for the end of these days of famine, to press the battle to the gates.

"Alas for their confidence. We on our part breathe a hearty Amen, and declare, "All Israel SHALL be saved, but which Israel?” FOR PAUL SPEAKS OF TWO ISRAEL'S, the one of the flesh and the other of the spirit. "They are not all Israel which are of Israel”. The one is rejected and the other accepted. The one is blinded and other receives its sight."

ISAIAH THEREFORE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT ZION IS THE CHURCH and Jacob is the whole election of grace, and by his employment of Isaiah 59 as the conclusion of his discussion in Romans 9-11, Paul clearly shows what he means by the word,

"AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED”

In short he teaches that salvation is limited to the election of grace, and that this election of grace is the worldwide and age long Kingdom of the Mediator Christ; therefore "Israel” is not, and by no stretch of the imagination can be made to mean, the nation of Jewry, present or to come, but the Church of Christ in which all distinction of Jew and gentile is for ever obliterated and forgotten.

Those who do not accept this conclusion undermine the entire conception of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace, which is the only instrument in view in these collateral writings of Isaiah and the apostle Paul.

I also recommend:
Charles Alexander : Prophecy Spiritually Understood - Pt 6 "No Third Temple"
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22433

MATTHEW 19:28 RTV (REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY VERSION)

AND JESUS SAID UNTO THEM, "VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THAT YE THAT HAVE FOLLOWED ME, IN THE REGENERATION WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT ON THE THRONE OF HIS GLORY, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON TWELVE THRONES, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHURCH.

MATTHEW 2:6 RTV

‘AND THOU, BALTIMORE, IN THE LAND OF JUDE, ART NOT THE LEAST AMONG THE PRINCES OF MARYLAND; FOR OUT OF THEE SHALL COME A GOVERNOR, THAT SHALL RULE MY PEOPLE THE CHURCH! ”

LUKE 2:34 RTV

AND SIMEON BLESSED THEM AND SAID UNTO MARY HIS MOTHER, "BEHOLD, THIS CHILD IS SET FOR THE FALL AND RISING AGAIN OF MANY IN THE CHURCH, AND FOR A SIGN WHICH SHALL BE SPOKEN AGAINST

JOHN 1:49 RTV

NATHANAEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HIM, "RABBI, THOU ART THE SON OF GOD; THOU ART THE KING OF THE CHURCH.”

I just found E.W. Hengstenberg's Christology of the Old Testament and a Commentary on Messianic Predictions on Amazon as a free Kindle download.

http://www.amazon.com/Christology-The-Old-Testament-Predictions/dp/1247941736%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q%26tag%3Dduckduckgo-d-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165953%26creativeASIN%3D1247941736

Do a search on his name and you will find more Kindle versions. The Prophecies of Ezekiel Elucidated look very good, too.

And don't forget to read this link on SI.

Prophecy Spiritually Understood - Pt 3 "Romans Eleven And The Two Israels"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22430

I think it puts the debate on "Is the Church Spiritual Israel", to rest.

NarrowPath wrote to J

Good questions that he/she cannot, will not answer.

Why you placed this article from Stehen Sizer, who was put under church discipline by the Church of England for antisemitism? Mind you the CoE is usually very tolerant and accommodating.

Why you posted the link from Neturei Karta, who is considered a extremist splinter group even by secular people?

Why do you refer to www.bible.ca who promote that the resurrection has already taken place as well as amillenialism, cessationism and replacement theology?

Neil, you wrote among other things

"these are sincere questions"....

well, I would believe that, if you didn't so relentlessly, like twice a week, or more, "ask" these "sincere questions".

Its more like an inquisition, and I;m sure you know that word might mean to a Jew...or is it "ethnic" Jew, and how does one tell an "ethnic" Jew...(you know THEY are recognizable....right?)

or maybe an "ethnic" Jew is some "atheistic ZIONIST".....and you did "cite" that 85% of all "National" Israel are "atheists"....didn't cite your source material on that number, but any citations coming from you would highly suspect.

But "ethnic Jews"?...like you wrote, if it wasn't for those fleshly Zionists, "National Israel", they should just be condemned to wander the earth for their deicide right?...you DID write that, didn't you?

keep it up pal.......hey and NICE leadership here, Greg...well what would I expect from you anyway?, guy that writes in a private email to me and terms Israel, a "wicked" nation......

keep it up."

And keep it up they will. The incomprehensible aspect to all of this is the obvious antisemitism allowed and tolerated so well here.
In a secular forum that is to be expected, But why in God honouring and Holy Spirit filled place unless the reality is otherwise.
Now we have seem discussions about denominationalism, and other trivial matters with people getting booted out right left and center no problem.
However when this obvious agenda to demonize God's plan for the Jewish race and nation is on display continually and unabated in this forum it leaves one to wonder if this is just another place for religionists to promote their theories and non-inspired agendas and
self interpretations

by proudpapa on 2015/12/5 12:27:53

Christology Of The Old Testament - can be found on sermon index :

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/bible_books/?view=book&book=831

Thanks, proudpapa. Good to know. Can't believe his writings have been here all the time. Truly is a treasure trove of writings on SI.

"NarrowPath wrote to J

Good questions that he/she cannot, will not answer.

Why you placed this article from Stehen Sizer, who was put under church discipline by the Church of England for antisemitism? Mind you the CoE is usually very tolerant and accommodating.

Why you posted the link from Neturei Karta, who is considered a extremist splinter group even by secular people?

Why do you refer to www.bible.ca who promote that the resurrection has already taken place as well as millennialism, cessationism and replacement theology?"

There are some links I posted that I just was not informed enough about and while they did have some truth, I did not agree with everything, but I believe if anyone reads the following, (if they are teachable) they will see the truth of God's Word. I can't imagine anyone on SI not agreeing with the following message.

Prophecy Spiritually Understood - Pt 3 "Romans Eleven And The Two Israels"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22430

Have a blessed day in Christ.

by proudpapa on 2015/12/5 15:01:23

That was more than obvious by the context of your postings.

There is an extreme attempt by many to paint a misconstrued dishonest image of Julius21.

Many can not discuss this issue with sobriety, We are called to be sober not intoxicated on offence.

It is a shame that the early Christian understanding on the subject is so in-tolerated, that it can not even be discussed without having our individual persons attacked.

I appreciate your understanding and grace, proudpapa. It would be great searching the scriptures with you, but hey, we are searching them, here. I can't tell you how much I have learned on this subject and hope everyone else is learning as well. It is the Word of God brought into clarity (understanding) that really sets us free.

Great post passerby

Let me quote it for those trying to bury it.

"It matters a lot in a sense that it undermines the integrity of God, as if He has made an empty or deceptive covenant towards Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Abraham is alive today he would have torn his clothes for the sins and fate of his children but then his faith in the mercy and promises of God will endure for what God has said about his decendants and their land will surely come to pass.

If God can not keep His promise to Abraham, then there is no hope for us either. I believe that what God had said to the patriarch were straight forward and understood in its simpliest meaning by both parties, but God is too gracious that we gentiles are not forgotten in His grand plan of salvation. "

Meanwhile, let His will be done as He restore the ancient land of Israel to the children of Jacob as He had declared, for the sake of their forefathers according to the abundance of His mercy."

The Significance of Israel to End-time Prophecies
Prof. Johan Malan, School of Social Sciences, University of Limpopo (Feb. 2005)

(An excerpt from a fine article regarding the importance of Israel in the end times)

"I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!” (Rom. 11:11-12). Because Israel has rejected and crucified their Messiah, redemption has been offered to the non-Jewish peoples of the world. In their fallen state Israel is, therefore, a blessing to the entire world as their spiritual inheritance is offered to all people! In Romans 11:12 the Lord clearly says that in their future, spiritually restored state, Israel will be an even greater blessing to the world.

Christians owe a debt of gratitude, recognition, blessing, intercession, and support to Israel. God would provoke them to jealousy (Rom. 11:11-15) by our worshipping and serving their God, Yahweh Elohim, through their Messiah, Yeshua! We must also pray for the peace of Jerusalem if we wish to prosper in our own country (Ps. 122:6).

The reason why all believers should in a very serious and dedicated way intercede for Jerusalem is because it is the city of the great King (Ps. 48:2). This is the city where our Lord revealed Himself as King, died on the cross to propitiate for our sins, rose from the dead on the third day, and ascended to heaven. Ten days after He ascended to heaven, the Holy Spirit was poured out upon 120 faithful and praying disciples, resulting in the birth of the Christian church in Jerusalem. From here, the message of salvation was proclaimed and carried to the uttermost parts of the world (Acts 1:8).

It is to the city of Jerusalem, on the Mount of Olives, that the Messiah will return at the end of the tribulation period to save the remnant of Israel, to judge His enemies, and to establish His kingdom on earth. In answer to the many prayers of the saints, and in accordance with His divine will, the Lord will transform Jerusalem to be the world capital, the wonderful city of the Messiah, and rule the millennial world from the restored throne of David (Is. 62:6-7). "At that time Jerusalem shall be called The throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem; they shall walk no more after the stubbornness of their evil heart” (Jer. 3:17).

How do we know that the blessings promised to Israel and Jerusalem still await final fulfilment? Divine prophecies of Israel being re-gathered to their land, spiritually revived, elevated above all nations and abundantly blessed (Deut. 28:1-14; 30:1-4; Ezek. 36:24-28; Is. 60:1-22; Hos. 14:5-8; Rom. 11:26-27) have never been fulfilled. On the contrary, no nation has suffered and survived anything like the prolonged worldwide dispersion, disdain, persecution, hatred and genocide which the people of Israel have during the past two millennia. God’s promises never fail ”“ they will be honoured in the Millennium.

Different responses to the restoration of Israel
The restoration of Israel elicits immense resistance from the enemies of this nation. The kingdom of darkness is fully aware of God’s future plans with Israel and seeks to oppose them with everything in its power. That is the main reason for the campaign of hatred against the Jews. God’s enemies are also the enemies of His true church and of His people, Israel: "For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; and those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against your people… they have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more” (Ps. 83:2-4).

Despite the religious formalism and deadness of the Jewish people, there is no justification at all for waging a campaign of hatred against them. This is one of the most foolish and self-destructive things nations or individuals could do. To act against the declared will and purposes of God is to pierce ourselves with many sorrows. Consider what happened to Israel as a nation because of rejecting God! The same God warns the enemies of Israel, but blesses their friends (Gen. 12:3).

We should rather pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Ps. 122:6) as this city is destined to resume its role as a place of divine revelation. When Jesus Christ comes back, He will not only be King of the kings worldwide, but specifically also the King of the Jews. When the angel Gabriel announced the birth of Jesus, he said about the Child: "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David” (Luke 1:32). The throne of David was in Jerusalem and still needs to be restored, hence the promise of the Lord Jesus: "I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does all these things” (Acts 15:16-17).

When this prophecy is fulfilled after the Second Coming of Christ, Jerusalem will be the centre of God’s kingdom on earth: "Out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Isa. 2:3-4). "Yes, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD” (Zech. 8:22).

With a view to this wonderful future of Jerusalem, Israel and the whole world, we are reminded to pray for Jerusalem and the revelation of God’s glory from that city: "You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent, and give Him no rest till He establishes and till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth” (Isa. 62:6). It stands to reason that when Jerusalem is fully restored and elevated to its new status as world capital, its inhabitants will also undergo a change of heart. Paul says: "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins” (Rom. 11:25-27).

We are awaiting the return of the Holy One of Israel (Isa. 43:3).

I am going to get all kinds of hate, once I post this. And the besmirching of many men (marginalizing them) are about to take place instead of the "ball being played". The opposition just cannot have a discourse about this subject because they having nothing to say about it from a "Christian Love or Biblical" point of view. And their attitude certainly does not help their cause. So, let me say now, my only agenda is that the Church is a community of peacemakers not warmongers and that we are identified by grace and not race and that this subject is probably one of the most important topics for Christians of our day, once you understand it. Unfortunately, the Christian Church today, is being identified by so many unbelievers as just modern day Crusaders. How can that be helpful to us?

Paul Boyer has a brilliant observation of why so many Christians are very passive about this.

"As Paul Boyer has pointed out, dispensationalism has effectively conditioned millions of Americans to be somewhat passive about the future and provided them with lenses through which to understand world events."

So, it certainly is not a molehill as a large contingent of Evangelical Christians (Darbyites and dispensationlists) believe that they can "hasten the Day of the Lord", by actually bringing about prophecy which will ultimately bring in the Day of Armageddon. Crazy you think? Keep reading.

"There is a downside to the dispensationalist/Israeli friendship. In their commitment to keep Israel strong and moving in directions prophesied by the Bible, dispensationalists are supporting some of the most dangerous elements in Israeli society. They do so because such political and religious elements seem to conform to dispensationalist beliefs about what is coming next for Israel. By lending their support-both financial and spiritual-to such groups, dispensationalists are helping the future they envision come to pass."

"Dispensationalists believe that the Temple is coming too; and their convictions have led them to support the aims and actions of what most Israelis believe are the most dangerous right-wing elements in their society, people whose views make any compromise necessary for lasting peace impossible. Such sentiments do not matter to the believers in Bible prophecy, for whom the outcome of the quarrelsome issue of the Temple Mount has already been determined by God.

Since the end of the Six-Day War, then, dispensationalists have increasingly moved from observers to participant-observers. They have acted consistently with their convictions about the coming Last Days in ways that make their prophecies appear to be self-fulfilling. Given the history of the region, the long-standing ethnic and religious hatreds there, and the attempt of many nations, both Western and Arab, to carry out their own purposes in the Holy Land, it is easy to imagine the current impasse even if dispensationalist views had never existed."

Certain Evangelical Christians are supporting a theological view that does not exist in the Word of God and it has created severe hostility between Christians and Muslims. They are doing immense damage to the Church and it is about to become very severe.

Here is a very balanced and objective article on the subject and just how it has developed over the last few decades. Quotes in this post are taken from here:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/End-Times/On-The-Road-To-Armageddon.aspx?p=10

I also recommend this one for a more theological discussion about the land, the temple: http://www.twoagespilgrims.com/doctrine/%E2%80%9Cnuke-iran%E2%80%9D-john-hagee-and-evangelical-zionists/

If you are an honest and brave person and do not care what men think of you, then read this page and get the book: Christian Zionism: Roadmap to Armageddon

Here is one of the over 60 endorsements:
"I've read some remarkable books, but this may top the list - a masterpiece. This book is for honest people. The graphic detail beginning with the 18th century, to the present time, includes incredible detail and many quotes from well known prominent people; it compels the reader to see cause and effect in the way the Zionist movement developed, It then is obvious that the inhuman and un-Christian thrust of Zionism becomes the responsibility of all citizens of democratic governments. The remarkable clarity of detail of this book shows the origins of Christian Zionism and how it developed into a powerful force that encourages the destruction of millions of people and also destruction of most of the world. It shows that much of that interest is at cross-purposes with Christian values. The book is amazingly enlightening. If one is sincerely interested in learning how Christian Zionism originated, grew and developed into one of the world's most powerful forces, this is a book to read. It gives frightening detail about the values that lead directly to some of the most cruel activities of our time. It also suggests solutions to this inhuman movement. This masterful, well researched study of Christian Zionism gives an overview of it that exposes the perpetrators with remarkable clarity. If one wishes to know what this phenomenon is and how it now plays out in unbelievably cruel ways, this book can reveal it A sub-title might well be; But where is Christianity?" Jake Terpstra, retired elder of the Christian Reformed Church and Specialist in Child Welfare, Foster Care, Residential Care and Licensing for the Children's Bureau, Administration for Children, Youth and Families (ACYP) & member of the Christian Reformed Church of America.

Christian Zionism: Roadmap to Armageddon
http://stephensizer.blogspot.com/2008/10/sixty-academics-endorse-christian.html

There is a reason that Sizer is persecuted (even by his own church) so vehemently. The TRUTH! And you will witness the hate firsthand (again) after I make this post. But, inform yourself, read the links I gave, get the book and judge for yourself and don't let aggressive people slam you back into a fetal position of passivity.

Here is one review:
Sizer has written a thorough and very readable overview of the Christian Zionist movement. After an introduction which defines both Zionism and Christian Zionism, the book is broken into three sections:

The first explores the historical roots of Christian Zionism beginning with the "proto-Zionism" of the 1700's. I was particularly fascinated to learn about the role that the Napoleonic Wars played in the seeds of Christian Zionism. Sizer goes on to delineate the birth and development of Dispensationalism; which was initially viewed as a novel and peculiar form of eschatology but has become widespread in the U.S. over the last 200 years and has served as the springboard for the Christian Zionist movement. Sizer methodically traces the trajectory of Dispensationalism from Irving to Darby to Scofield to Lindsay (and points in-between) and does an excellent job of explaining the relationships between the various forms of Dispensationalism and Zionism.

The second section of the book explores the theology behind Christian Zionism. Sizer begins by explaining the "literal futurist hermeneutic" (in other words, method of study) which is the fountainhead from which Dispensationalism/Zionism springs. I thoroughly enjoyed this section of the book as Sizer examined Zionist theological views about the relationship between the Jewish people and the Christian church, the return of Jews to Israel, the status of Jerusalem, the rebuilding of the temple, etc.

The third section looks at the political implications of Christian Zionism. THIS WAS THE MOST SOBERING AND CHILLING PART OF THE BOOK.

The book ends by setting forth a series of conclusions based on the material covered in the preceding sections.

Sizer's writing style is no-nonsense and free of hype. Although he is obviously a scholar and provides copious footnotes, the book is very accessible and at under 300 pages is a quick read.

I am a Christian who is actively involved in ministry and have gradually come to reject the "Left Behind" Dispensational theology that trickled down to me through the 700 Club, TBN, Calvary Chapel, etc. There are so many people that I wish I could get this book into the hands of and convince them to read it with an open mind and heart.

I have a fairly extensive library of Christian/theological books and this one will be located in a place where I can easily access it because I expect to be referencing it over and over again.

now that takes the cake, here we go with the Jew hating anti-semite Steven Sizer
as source material for their religious hatred regarding the people of Israel.
Next he will be quoting Hilter and Goebbels to support his agenda.

Edit
(But then again maybe the real reason for posting this propaganda that Sizer and his friends promote is to get out focus on his agenda rather than the Lord God's
eternal plan.)

Julius,

your first line speaks volumes:

"I am going to get all kinds of hate, once I post this."

be real, what it seems you really crave is a lot of attention, I mean you post on this forum as if its a JOB...are you married? kids?...posting this much doesn't lend itself to family life...does it?...or do you have it "all balanced"?

what kind of poor lonely man consumes himself with posting on an internet "Christian" discussion forum , bleating and ranting like you have been doing?

I went to "beliefnet" to read your balanced article, but what struck my attention were 2 things, it seems to be some ecumenical forum.....and after your article, the comments were quite illuminating....here's one:

(his "avatar is "Jews did 9/11") and this great mind opines:

"SHALLOW, LITERAL-MINDED PEOPLE MAKE SHALLOW, LITERAL-MINDED CHRISTIANS, I.E. CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS.

Who are easily led. Because they're too lazy to read their Bibles everyday, they believe anything that sounds good. Like the restoration of israel in 1948. All the jew-owned media and the jew-owned "christian" ministries continually beat us over the head with this fallacy. In the Bible, the LORD's not referring to a physical restoration of Israel, but a spiritual restoration. We Christians are the embodiment of that restoration.

"One of the clearest and most monumental Old Testament prophecies regarding the restoration of the tabernacle may be found in Amos 9:11-12; and in Acts 15:14-17, JAMES (New Testament) clearly teaches that THIS PASSAGE IS BEING FULFILLED IN THE SPREADING OF THE GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES so in sum yes, the bible prophesies of a restored Jewish nation and temple, but then goes on to teach that this prophecy was fulfilled in JESUS' BECOMING THE TRUE AND FINAL TEMPLE OF GOD, and subsequently in his making his people a holy temple in the Lord, where God's presence might dwell among them, even today."
-------

end comment for poster at beliefnet.

now, if want to entertain the notion that within Israel (actually your the guy who said 85% of all Israel are "atheists"....still waiting for CREBIDLE attribution on that stat) there is this GROUNDSWELL to have the "3rd temple" rebuilt , presumably over a demolished Al-Aksa Mosques...that's just laughable lies, at MOST there are 2 to 3,000 kahanists nationwide, who's "leadership" is being either jailed by Shin Bet, OR who's every move is being tracked by Shin Bet...so that's just a straw dog you're tossing out there....

and i'm the idiot! i'm the idiot who thinks I have to defend Israel from the likes of your incessant
posting. Israel seems quite adept with God's help, of taking care of the Nation, they don't me.

hence dialogue with you is just waste time.

"In another strange but very real way Jews were a blessing to the world during the Diaspora. Through their fall, by not believing in the Messiah, the command was given to proclaim the message of salvation to the Gentile world (Rom. 11:11; Matt. 28:19). We received Israel’s spiritual heritage, and now have the clear obligation to provoke them to jealousy by the way in which we serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through the Messiah (Rom. 11:11). We are not to criticise and condemn them but to draw them to Messiah by our example and faith. It is a great tragedy that all too often Christians have persecuted them and succeeded in only provoking the Jews to anger by failing to show them the true love of Christ."

But you would prefer to cast them out and remove their very reason for existence.
This belief your hold and practice certainly doe that. Sizer and your friends are no friends of God.

I didn't say what I regretted posting and I am gratified to learn that no one here ascribes to Christian Zionism. You obviously can see the dangers of it. So far, his book on Road to Armageddon is right on and is in line with scripture.

CHRISTIAN ZIONISM (and satanic theological error known as Replacement Theology)

Tens of thousands of churches have a committed belief in the importance of standing with Israel and blessing the Jewish people. The verse most often referred to as their biblical mandate is Genesis 12:3 in which God tells Abraham "I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you and in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Since the birth of the State of Israel in 1948 the theological error known as Replacement Theology has begun to decline and increasing is a theology of Christian Zionism that understands the importance of God’s everlasting covenant with Abraham and the nation he would birth.

However, just as the term "Zionism” has been turned into a negative word by Israel’s enemies, so "Christian Zionism” is under attack and often misrepresented in the media and in some public discourse. For this reason, the ICEJ’s articles and monographs defining and clarifying the beliefs of Christian supporters of Israel and placing their "love for Israel” within its proper biblical context are proving invaluable.

Christian Zionists
"Zionism, [is] the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained. The term "Zionism" was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum." (Jewish Virtual Library).

If Zionism is the belief in the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland, then a Christian Zionist should simply be defined as a Christian who supports the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland. Under this broad and simple definition, many Christians would qualify no matter what their reasons are for this support. Just as Jews of all persuasions formed the Zionist movement then Christians of all persuasion can also fall within this broad definition of a Christian Zionist.

For this very reason, a myriad of answers may be given by a Christian when questioned about their support of Israel. Answers can include political, historical, and/or religious reasons.

Theology of Christian Zionism
The actual theology of Christian Zionism, also known as Biblical Zionism, supports the right of the Jewish people to return to their homeland on scriptural grounds. The biblical foundation for Christian Zionism is found in God's Covenant with Abraham. It was in this covenant that God chose Abraham to birth a nation through which He could redeem the world, and to do this He bequeathed them a land on which to exist as this chosen nation.

Christian Zionism is confirmed throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. The major and minor prophets consistently confirmed this national calling on Israel, promised her future restoration to the land after a period of exile, and spoke of her spiritual renewal and redemption bringing light to the world.

Christian Zionism differs with Replacement Theology which teaches that the special relationship that Israel had with her God in terms of her national destiny and her national homeland has been lost because of her rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and therefore the Church has become the new Israel. The Church has then inherited all the blessings promised to Israel but the judgments and curses still conveniently remain over the Jewish people.

Instead, Christian Zionism teaches from the scriptures that God's covenant with Abraham is still valid today. There remains a national destiny over the Jewish people and her national homeland is her everlasting possession in fulfillment of God's plans and purposes for her. The New Testament scriptures not only affirm the Abrahamic covenant, but they confirm the historical mission of Israel and that Israel's gifts and calling are irrevocable.

Thus, Christian Zionism is not based on prophecy or end-time events. Most Christian Zionists would agree, however, that Israel's reemergence on the world's scene, in fulfillment of God's promises to her, indicate that other biblically-predicted events will follow.

Rev. Malcolm Hedding
ICEJ Spokesman

Very good read, proudpapa.

T. Austin-Sparks presents the Church as Spiritual Israel very well.

"Then you notice that the old Israel was built upon the twelve sons of Jacob. Twelve is the number of representation. Those twelve sons of Jacob represented the whole nation. Jesus chose twelve disciples. They were a representative company of the new Israel. Moses had seventy elders that went up into the mount with him. Jesus chose seventy apostles and sent them out two by two.

Israel of old had a tabernacle. John says, "The Word became flesh, and Tabernacled among us." Jesus is the Tabernacle of the new Jerusalem. It is in Him that we meet God. And in Him all the spiritual meaning of the old tabernacle is come to fulfillment. Israel of old had a high priest. The New Testament teaches us that Jesus is the High Priest of the new Israel. Israel had the great sacrifice, the whole burnt offering. Jesus has become THE GREAT SACRIFICE. Israel had a great altar. The Cross of the Lord Jesus is THE GREAT ALTAR of the new Israel. And so we could go on. But, I think, we have said enough to indicate that Jesus came to form a new heavenly Israel."

He closes with this:

"Dear friends, the deepest reality about a child of God is the most wonderful thing in this universe. The deepest thing is this, that there is something there in that life which only God could do. No man, or number of men, can make a child of God. There is nothing in this universe that can make a child of God. Only God can make a child of God. So that this new spiritual heavenly Israel is something which in its very beginning is on supernatural ground. We are a wonderful lot of people. We do not look like very much. Of course, I do not mean to insult you, I include myself. We do not look like very much. In this world, we are not very much. But God has in this world the most wonderful thing that He has done. He has a people which are of the result of His own unique Divine work. That is the beginning of the new Israel.

You see, we are right back with Abraham and Isaac as the beginning of this thing. God has brought that over into this new Israel. That is the beginning. Oh, that the Lord would give us spiritual understanding about this. I had thought that I might be able to say something about how true this is of the Christian life after its beginning. But if the Lord wills, I have got another evening tomorrow, and we can go on then.

Oh, but we have said enough surely to make it very clear that Christ is doing a very wonderful thing. Our name is Israel. That means a prince with God. May the Lord help us to live up to our name, recognize the great dignity that has been put upon us, and to understand the wonderful thing that He has done in us. The Lord bless you."

Juli said

"I didn't say what I regretted posting and I am gratified to learn that no one here ascribes to Christian Zionism."

That is a outright lie. Most of the Christians here are Christian Zionists but
you lie without any conviction. Reminds me of someone......

Dave,

If Greg would like to close it, it is fine by me. I don't think I will be posting anymore, anyway. I believe enough material has been presented to dispute your claim.

T. Austin Sparks (link by proudpapa) clearly shows the Church is Spiritual Israel
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=21422

And Charles Alexander clearly shows the same.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22430

You did not respond to any of their articles. Were you going to? As you can see from these other brothers it is not about me. It is about what the Bible says regarding the Church as Spiritual Israel.

I hope you will respond to Sparks and Alexander's writings.

Re: Christian Zionism: The Jews are the "Chosen People" of God

Yes he/she the major issue with his continual and driven posting and linking to anti-Jewish and anti-semitic sites and writers who have an agenda to demonize
the state and people of Israel.
And of course they cannot and will not defeat God's purposes for them and us who are in Christ.

by Heydave on 2015/12/6 18:11:54

Well Julius you replied within minutes of my last post. You must be sitting at your keyboard constantly!

Again you give links just from teachings from others. I won't discuss with you, as you hide your identity for some reason. Why don't you say who you are?

Dave,

"For some reason"?

Yes, I got back from my fellowship about 3:30 today.

I can't say who I am because as you well know your friends have threatened me (Neil). I did not see you repudiate those threats, hostility and intimidation. Why not?

I have a wife and kids that I need to protect. Wouldn't you do the same?

There is quite a bit of confusion in this thread

The first problem is we don't even agree what the "church " is and what a "christian " is and the definition of "Israel "
Is "Israel " physical, spiritual, is it a country in the ME?
Here is an interesting verse straight from God's Word
1 Kings 12:21 When Rehoboam arrived in Jerusalem, he mustered the whole house of Judah and the tribe of Benjamin--a hundred and eighty thousand fighting men--to make war against the house of Israel and to regain the kingdom for Rehoboam son of Solomon

Covenants: there are many different covenants in the Bible !
Hebrews 8v13 In that He says, "A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
This one is obsolete

Genesis 17v7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
This one is an everlasting covenant !

Quote : "Most of the Christians here are Christian Zionists "
"If Zionism is the belief in the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland, then a Christian Zionist should simply be defined as a Christian who supports the Jewish people's right to return to their homeland "

My believe is simply what God Himself said :
Genesis 17v8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. "
God said He will GIVE to Abraham and His Seed ...all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession...and He will be their God.!
When God said He will GIVE something ...for and everlasting possession - then He will do it !!

So I'm simply trying to be a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and believe His Word
The Lamb that was slain misses out in most of those discussions!
Quote: (passerby )"Any christian who has attained maturity will not really care for any land, being with God is more than enough for him."

Amen!

Dave wrote:

"I have been asking myself, why has Greg allowed this continual purpose driven agenda from Julius to continue. There has been numerous pastes from anti-semites, conspiracy theories and direct links to outside forums and blogs without any word or restriction."

This honest question deserves an honest answer otherwise the credibility of this site will be greatly damaged.

What damages a site more than anything is not discourse or searching the scriptures but rather hostility, threats and slander. You call these people anti semites (an evil tactic) but they have gone on record as saying they do not oppose the existence of the nation of Israel. Israel was legally created by the UN and have a right to the same security as any other nation. They have every right to exist that any other nation has. This is what these people have affirmed and yet you try to stick a label on them. Very unbecoming of a child of God.

The question is: Are the people of God, (born-again by the Spirit), the holy nation of spiritual Israel? We have shown that they are. Nothing else needs to be presented.

T. Austin Sparks answers that question with the truth contained in the Scriptures. And so does Charles Alexander and absolutely no one has refuted their writings.

The U. N could only rubber stamp GOD's plan for Israel. And they will continue
to exist as long as God does. And all your venom and hatred toward them is
of no real consequence to the eternal workings of the most high God.
His plans will prevail and not yours and the Sizers of this world that you
love to emulate.

Venom and hatred? This is the slander I am talking about. So, if someone thinks God's people are spiritual Israel, then in your mind they hate Israel? How do you actually arrive at that?

Sorry, double post.

Twisting in the wind now? Those that you promote with your links hate
and demonize the people and nation of Israel. It goes way beyond a theological
dissertation, No, it is unbridled hatred of God's people that you and they promote.
Religion is just the cloak you use.

Well rev, there really is no reasoning with you. I should have known than to directly engage you.

I suppose you think T. Austin Sparks and Charles Alexander and John Stott are also anti-semite. Is John Stott's book, "The Place of Israel", also anti Semitic? And, what if Greg said spiritual Jews were also known as spiritual Israel in the NT, would he also be an anti semite? What if Greg agreed with Charles Alexander and Sparks and Stott? How would that affect your opinion of him? Would you call him names, too?

Have a good night. I am offline for now.

Replacement Theology is the view that the church has permanently replaced or superseded Israel as the people of God and that the church will inherit all the Old Testament promises given to Israel. In recent years, Replacement Theology has gained more and more popularity among evangelical Christians. Well known Christian leaders, such as R. C. Sproul, Hank Hanegraaf, John Piper, and others argue that because Israel has been unfaithful to God, these Old Testament promises are now given to Christians. This doctrine is called Replacement Theology or "Supersessionism” by scholars and academics.

Definition
Replacement Theology is a theological view of the world that claims God is forever finished with Israel as a nation. Therefore, God’s promises in the Abrahamic Covenant to give the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the land of Canaan as an eternal inheritance are no longer in effect with national Israel. ””Renald Showers, The Coming Apocalypse, (Friends of Israel, Bellmawr. NJ, 2010), p. 7-8

History
At the end of the first century, the church turned from being overwhelmingly Jewish to being predominantly Gentile. The Gentile believers did not view the Old Testament promises to Israel with the same passion as the early Jewish believers. These Gentile Christians began to teach that because the Jewish people, by and large, had rejected God, God had rejected them and the church now had become the chosen people. By the second century, Replacement Theology had become entrenched in the minds of many Christian leaders.
Christian apologist Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165) was the first to write that the Christian church was the true spiritual Israel in a work called Dialogue Of Justin Martyr With Trypho A Jew. By the end of the third century, Replacement teaching became anchored in most of the churches in Europe and the Middle East. Today, the majority of non-evangelical churches have embraced Replacement Theology. Roman Catholic churches since the time of Augustine have rigidly held to this view, along with Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist, most Reformed denominations, and the Emerging Church movement.

***********Anti-Semitism
Replacement theology has had a devastating effect on the Jewish people. Throughout history, Replacement Theology has been the fuel that has energized violent anti-Semitism, Eastern European pogroms, the Holocaust, and disdain for the modern state of Israel. Replacement Christians, since the third century, have been active in persecuting the Jewish people. This persecution first began under anti-Semitic Roman Catholic bishops. Later, Lutherans led by the Reformer Martin Luther were involved in stirring up strong anti-Jewish prejudice in Germany. Martin Luther wrote:
"Let me give you my honest advice. First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire. And whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians… ””Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, The Christian in Society, vol. 4, (Philadelphia, PA:Fortress, 1971) 268-293********

Although Replacement Theology has had its champions in the church since the second century, in this case, age does not improve doctrinal quality. Replacement Theology has corrupted and degraded both the church’s doctrine and practice.

***********Replacement Theology has resulted in some of the darkest periods of persecution and anti-Semitism.**********

Today, in many ways, Preterism, Covenant theology, Millennialism, and Calvinism continue this unfortunate tradition of prejudice and unsound Bible doctrine. May we be aware of dangers of Replacement Theology and exhort all Christians to be faithful to Bible doctrine and sensitive to the Jewish people.

Dear brother Fletcher,

Your words are good and right and I believe Greg is desiring those who name the name of the Lord to acquit themselves with mutual respect and love rather than having to step in and take control of threads. Brothers should be able to strive together in the truth and I believe Greg has been sitting back and praying, with nothing going unnoticed, yet praying. I commend him greatly for giving brothers the chance to work things out, this is the way it should be. Even if we end on a note of disagreement, we are still brothers in Christ. And because we are, I treat them as such. For my part, I am more than happy to leave this thread, disagreeing with my brothers yet wishing them no harm! On the contrary, I pray they are blessed with every spiritual blessing that can only be found in Christ.

I look forward to meeting them again in another topic.

quote:"Dave, have you read everything that Neil, notdarkyet, and Carmine have written to us and about us personally.

It would be foolish to reveal our identity".

you just implied that I "threatened" you, that is a lie and you know it.

the harshest things I said to you three apostates, Julius, Oracio Sandoval, and yourself, was "repent from your wickedness now,before its too late".........

the "too late" part is in God's wheelhouse....not mine. Your fellow sluefoot team member Julius explicity said I threatened him, he TOO, is a liar, but I expect no less from three men fully in the grips of wickedness.

Julius wrote and i'm paraphrasing that he "wont be posting much longer"...Praise God, may it be so,amen, but coming from him?....probably yet another lie.

what is TRULY mystifying me, is where is Greg?

I've seen men bounced for much less, I have my suppositions on WHY he might be letting this hellish onslaught of wickedness and apostasy continue....oh I wish I could preach like my brother Ian Paisley, because here's EVERYTHING I would say to you "replacement theologists"

"Fundamentalism versus Apostasy"
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

EVERYTHING you forthtold makes all the sense in Messiah Jesus, and I love you, as a brother IN Him, neil

ps.....looking back, with my Korean language and intel skills, I wish I HAD aliyahed back in 88, and you KNOW "Aman" would have collared me (I write Aman, because of all the posters here, you know who they are....I could have served, but......youtube "operation orchard", there's 2 parts...if I was there...MAYBE I could discerned earlier,in 97-98, rather than 2004, who the players were...we'll never know, brother Chris, I failed. again,much love, n.

Chris

You wrote: (and no offence to you)

" Strangely, I have met a few Christians who seem to embrace a similar aspect or perspective toward Jews -- as though they were once God's chosen people but, because of transgression, are now rejected. This contradicts the "forever" nature of the old covenant (Romans 11). "

And if they continued to blast and hammer with
these false allegations against the Jews in this place you would think that someone with authority here would be willing and able to curtail this venom towards God's ancient people.... just saying

proudpapa

Now thats not nice to say to brother Neil. He has not lied to you nor slandered
your people has he?

No he has not. If someone slanders and marginalized your race and nationality and suggest that God had abandoned them and replaced them with others
perhaps you just might be offended. Especially when there is no evidence
to suggest otherwise.

by neilgin1 on 2015/12/6 21:39:01

quote:"Dave, have you read everything that Neil, notdarkyet, and Carmine have written to us and about us personally.

It would be foolish to reveal our identity".

you just implied that I "threatened" you, that is a lie and you know it.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=55762&forum=35&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=1

by neilgin1 on 2015/11/24 16:42:14

quote:"Maybe, it is true after all what they say about military intelligence."

oh that's sweet, but YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL, you never know who exactly is sitting at the other end of that fiber optic cable.....AND NO WHAT I HAVE (not what I can do) cant be bought in any big box cyber store....so ...third time,and try not to lie:

are you Buff Scott Jr.?

and oh yeh, REMEMBER WHAT I TOLD ABOVE, HEED IT, I did not appreciate the crack about M.I. CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

proudpapa is not the only one that doesn't trust you. I don't trust you, either so how does anyone expect me to reveal my identity in light of your threats? Of course your friends, Dave, NDY and Enue let it slide (so they had no problem with it). Are you guys all the same person because you all sound the same?

So, yes you did threaten me.

add:
The "people of God", "called out ones", Ekklesia, Church, Royal Priesthood, Holy Nation, Jerusalem above, Israel of God, are a people of GRACE, not RACE.

you wrote:
"Maybe, it is true after all what they say about military intelligence."

to which I replied:
"oh that's sweet, but YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL, you never know who exactly is sitting at the other end of that fiber optic cable.....AND NO WHAT I HAVE (not what I can do) cant be bought in any big box cyber store....so ...third time,and try not to lie:

are you Buff Scott Jr.?

and oh yeh, REMEMBER WHAT I TOLD ABOVE, HEED IT, I did not appreciate the crack about M.I. CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED."

where's the threat?......what? "CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED?"

"WARNED".....nowhere, in that, whether implicit...or explicit is ANY "bodily harm" threat, and to say otherwise is slander.

I ask you this? do you think, that a leading online Christian publication, such as Christianity Today wouldn't LOVE a story about a gaggle of men hijacking the forum of a high profile Christian website's forum and relentlessly shoving the hate filled "replacement theology" meme, that led to so much anti-Jewish, anti-Israel hatred throughout "Church" history, and how this "hi-jacking" personally affected a Jew who follows Jesus's faith walk?

oh my, they would love a story like that, and I would have NO problem being quoted, attributed, identified for such a story....but i'll tell you, Greg Gordon wouldn't, nor would he want Sermonindex named in a story about three men, or maybe just you, who both lauds and cites a figure like Stephen Sizer, who dines and fellowships with Shia clerics in Tehran, all the while disgorging his anti-Israel spew....and I ask, are you ready to be cited and quoted for such story in times like THIS, when we stand on the precipice of global war?

and then, lets walk this out a little further, and PressTV, which is the broadcast arm of the Islamic republic of Iran picks up the Christianity Today story (or even WND, who would also love such a story) PressTV runs the story of a Christian intermural squabble about factions on an obscure discussion forum of "Christians" thinking that "Zionism" is ANTI-Christian, and this poor "straight thinker" (you) is being persecuted by the "jew-owned" media.......you ready for THAT?

i'm not "threatening", i'm saying to YOU, this is all a game to you , a hobby to play, and you're not thinking straight. Need I remind you that this is a world on fire, and we stand on precipice of global war, and you dare get indignant with me, when its you three acting the child?

advice?, turn off the laptop or PC, and go pay attention to your wife, like God demands.

Definition of "Jew" noun. "A member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel. Jews believe that a Jew is someone who is the child of a Jewish mother, and who has not adopted another faith"(Oxford dictionary)

Definition of "Judaism" "For its origins Judaism looks to the biblical covenant made by God with Abraham, and to the laws revealed to Moses and recorded in the Torah (supplemented by the rabbinical Talmud), which established the Jewish people’s special relationship with God " (Oxford dictionary)

Talmud: " The Hebrew term Talmud ("study” or "learning”) commonly refers to a compilation of ancient teachings regarded as sacred and normative by Jews from the time it was compiled until modern times and still so regarded by traditional religious Jews." (britannica.com)

Quote : (pp )"The things said to us ought not be said to ones worst enemies". Sad but true.

Who do i support? I know now. True believers who live for Christ, who have and spread His love. He is the only answer in this world and He deserves the full reward for His suffering. And He seems to be missing in some members lives in this thread.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land

It is a privilege to be part of the "commonwealth of Israel" and it is definitely all by grace. We boast only in Jesus Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0FPD8-XoA

Romans 11 The GOD of Israel is restoring the Jewish people, even now in these later days.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.”
20 Thou sayest well! Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness. Otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I, brethren, would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits: that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written: "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is My covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.”

(Oh and please do not comment in order to twist theses scriptures J O and the rest of the replacement gang)