Decimation of Damascas

I know we have discussed the prophecy of the destruction of Damascas and whether it was fulfilled in the past, yet to be fulfilled, etc.

Dr Michael Brown had a FB post today showing how ISIS has decimated the city of Damascas.

So I guess it is happening as we speak.

I agree that that interpretation may be (and probably is) correct.

I don't watch a lot of news so when I saw the photo of all the damage ISIS has done I was surprised.

Bear I believe some prophecy is still to be fulfilled (eg 2nd coming, final judgment) but I also believe much has been fulfilled (eg 1st coming, destruction of Jerusalem and temple system). Remember the Bible was written at least 2000 years ago (or close) and some much further back.

Even NT book passages that are latched onto as referring to OUR future used language like "soon" and "near" and "shortly." And they were written to real people way back then.

Bear I am not saying you can't be right because you may be.

But we have to be somewhat careful in interpreting prophetic passages like you mention 100% literally. Consider the following passage from Isaiah regarding judgment on Edom. Surely the smoke from its burning is not still rising today:

Isaiah 34:8-10 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch,And its dust into brimstone;Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day;Its smoke shall ascend forever.From generation to generation it shall lie waste;No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

I dont know how helpful the Damascus conversation is. But I have an honest question, so count me in. :)

Someone said Damascus was partially destroyed and that the event equals a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 17. How? If Isaiah meant a total and permanent destruction of Damascus how can a 2700 year old partial destruction of what is today the oldest continually existing city be "partial" fulfillment? That seems to me a lot like predicting the oceans will run dry and then saying evaporation in June 515 AD partially fulfilled that. See what I mean? I don't see how that prophecy can be fulfilled partially. Either Damascus did or will cease to be a city or it did not/will not.

Is it possible that Isaiah 17:1 does not mean permanently so? Yes. In fact, the Hebrew does not mean permanent cessation. It means to be laid aside or put down, to turn off, call back or decline. Pardon the comparison, but it may be like Chrysler or Pontiac. They ceased but you can still buy parts, still see them in the road (I drive a Pontiac), and the companies that made them make the same things in the same places by other names. V. 3 uses the word "shabbath" to describe the kingdom of Damascus. It can mean permanent stoppage, but usually does not.

I don't know, y'all. I would not be surprised to see Damascus catastrophically fall in the near future. Not knowing is not knowing---it isn't disagreeing with the Lord. I personally *feel* like Is. 17:1 is future and that it means total wipe out forever, but I would be very dishonest to look at the Word and say it *must* be so.

Bearmaster,

Brethren let's me put the question this way. Is the Bible merely a history book of prophecies that have been fulfilled in times past. Or is there a future fulfillment of prophecy as yet to come?

One convincing example would be Hosea 11:1, Matt 2:15 ("Out of Egypt I have called My Son.").

Sometimes it seems that some Christians are offended at the suggestion that some prophecies were fulfilled in the past. True, that makes it history to us, but when the prophecy was made it was still future. To me it's awesome that we can look back with hindsight to see how prophecy was fulfilled. This is especially true with all the messianic prophecies and the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse in 70 ad.

I agree the the Word is alive and two-edged and certainly pertains to us today. This would be true even if every prophecy in it has already been fulfilled (I don't believe this) because it contains so much more than just prophecy.

by dolfan
Someone said Damascus was partially destroyed and that the event equals a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 17. How? If Isaiah meant a total and permanent destruction of Damascus how can a 2700 year old partial destruction of what is today the oldest continually existing city be "partial" fulfillment?

Blaine, I am with you. I am fully on board with not being preterist. :) I am not. I remain in that mindset and understanding of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. My comments about Isaiah 17:1-3 were not intended to argue a broader point about interpretive views. I was just asking how anyone can view as "partial fulfillment" a once, past "partial destruction" of a place that obviously has not been destroyed ever and has always remained there.

I don't see how anyone can read Isaiah 17:1-3 as something capable of partial then complete fulfillment unless in between the "partial destruction" stays destroyed. Damascus is patently not that. It was taken over, partly destroyed, devastated and has never ruled anything again except as capital of Syria. I submit that the Hebrew words the prophet used in Isaiah 17:1-3 about Damascus naturally, easily encompass what already happened to Damascus all those centuries ago. I submit that I don't know for sure if the passage refers to those events or to something that remains unfulfilled yet. I do submit that IF the passage WAS fulfilled, it was not partial, but complete, and also that IF it WAS fulfilled then it has no bearing on the integrity of a futurist view of prophecy. That view stands or falls without regard to Isaiah 17.

But Blaine- all the disciples WERE persecuted and killed except arguably John.

You don't need the Olivet Discourse for source material regarding persecution of true believers. You can find that all over the place in scripture.

At best I have a partial preterist view of the OD. I certainly do not hold to a full preterist position.

But the fact of the matter is is that Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in the same generation as those who he was speaking to. It was the greatest tribulation the world had seen to that point. There were signs in the heavens (read Josephus's account) and it was the end of the temple system. God was judging an unbelieving Jewish people.

What makes the OD somewhat confusing is that Jesus uses apocalyptic language like other prophets before him (Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, eg).

Bear- you very well could be right. I don't want to be dogmatic about it. I guess the trouble would be trying to figure out which prophecies have a dual fulfillment and which ones don't. And of course there would be differing opinions on that so we'd be back to square one.

Bottom line is that we need to follow hard after the Lord, regardless of what does or does not happen. That is what is expected. We follow hard after the Lord for HIS sake, not ours.

bearmaster writes:

Brother I could go all through the signs of Matthew 24 and ask how to preterist would explain their ongoing reality. But let me just take one of the signs. One that I am very well familiar with because of the nature of my prayer call.

Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 24:9.......They will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

Now if I understand your position. You would say that this was fulfilled in 70 AD. If this was fulfilled in 70 AD then there should be no present persecution. Or is this the prettiest position?

Brother respectfully my question is why am I still moderating a call praying for the persecuted church three nights a week? Why am I still reading heart-wrenching reports of believers who are being martyred for Christ? Why is it documented that persecution of Christians is taking place in over 139 nations in this present day? Why were precious Saints slain for their faith in Jesus in Uganda, the Philippines, and Nigeria this past Christmas? Brother respectfully for that matter why is Greg still posting articles about the persecuted church in this forum?

Brother this question is asked respectfully and in a conciliatory manner or tone. I really would like to know how Oreterists such as yourself explain the reality of ongoing persecution in this present age. If you say the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD. There is no sarcasm implied here. I just want to know how you view the reality of ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters if you believe the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Respectfully submitted by Blaine.

Very good question. I thought about starting a new thread on the Olivet Discourse based on that question but decided to just post my response here.

Respectfully, Bear's question reflects why I do not agree with the Partial Preterist interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, as it seeks to push the fulfillment of all the predictions there back to the first century, even the references there to Christ’s Second Coming. I also cannot agree with the Dispensational Futurist interpretation of it because it seeks to push it all into the future, even the clear references there to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in A.D. 70. And this is why I believe the Amillennial position gives a more biblically balanced and correct interpretation of the OD.

When it comes to interpreting Matthew 24, I believe the key is in considering the disciples questions. The disciples asked Jesus three specific questions, but they did not understand that those were three separate questions pertaining to three separate stages of history; they thought they all went together. The three questions were:

1. "When will these things be?” i.e. when will the destruction of the Temple take place?

2. "What will be the sign of your coming?" i.e. The Coming of the Messiah in power and great glory.

3. "What will be the sign of the end of the age?” i.e. the sign/s of the last days.

The disciples must have been shocked at our Lord’s prediction of the destruction of the Temple. They seem to have thought, "Surely, if the Temple is going to be destroyed it must be at the time of the Coming of the Messiah in power and great glory, at the time of the end of the age.”

Christ goes on to give them certain signs of those three different stages of history. And He does not give those signs in a strictly chronological order.

From verses 4-14 Christ gives them (and us) signs pertaining to the last days, which would answer their last question. What we need to understand at this point is that God’s Word calls "the last days” the time between Christ’s First and Second Coming. We see this clearly in many passages. These are some examples:

"Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."-1 Cor. 10:11
Real quick regarding this particular verse, notice how similar the wording is there to the disciples' question. The disciples asked what sign there would be for "the end of the age", and this verse says "the end of the ages" has come upon us.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.”-Acts 2:17

"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!”-2 Timothy 3:1-5

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds”-Hebrews 1:1-2

"Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.”-James 5:3

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.”-1 John 2:18

So what are the signs of the last days (again, the time between Christ’s First and Second Coming) according to Jesus in those verses? It’s these:

False Christ’s/false prophets/false teachers, wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes in various places, persecution, betrayal, the love of many growing cold, and the preaching of the gospel throughout the earth.

Then from verses 15-26 our Lord answers their second question, which deals with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. He calls that destruction and desolation "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet”. If you doubt this, consider this parallel passage in Luke 21:

"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.”

Then from verses 27-31 Christ speaks of His Second Coming. And I’ll explain here why I disagree with the Preterist interpretation which says that this prophecy was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem. In these verses we have the mentioning of clouds, the sound of a trumpet, the angels gathering the elect from the four winds and all the tribes of the earth mourning. Notice the similarities in these other passages of Scripture which clearly refer to the Second Coming of Christ:

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”-1 Cor. 15:51-52

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”-1 Thess. 4:16-18

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”-Rev. 1:7

In verses 32-35 Jesus gives the parable of the fig tree and tells them, "this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place.” Now at this point Partial Preterists will say, "See, those previous verses could not possibly be referring to Christ’s Second Coming because that hasn’t taken place yet.” And Dispensational Futurists will use those same verses to make their case for pushing the fulfillment of all the OD predictions into the future.

However, there are two things to consider which allow for the Amillennial interpretation. First, the "all these things” could be referring to the signs of "the last days”. Also, the word "generation” is the Greek word ghenehah which could also be translated as "age”, so it could refer to the time or age between the two Comings of Christ. Peter uses that same word in Acts 2:40 where he exhorts his hearers, "Be saved from this perverse generation.”

In verse 36 Christ says, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
Notice that our Lord does not say there, "But of those days”(plural) but rather, "But of THAT DAY”(singular). He is referring there to what the Bible calls "The Last Day”(Jn 6:39-40, 44; 54; Jn 11:24; Jn. 12:48), i.e. His Second Coming, which will be accompanied by the resurrection of the dead and the Day of Judgment.

In verses 37-44 our Lord compares the time of His Second Coming to the times of Noah right before the flood and warns us to be ready for His return at any moment.

Finally, in verses 45-51 Christ gives the parable of the faithful servant and the evil servant as another warning for us to be ready at all times for His return.

JB Lightfoot on Matthew 24:9

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

[Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted.] To this relate those words of 1 Peter 4:17, "The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God"; that is, the time foretold by our Saviour is now at hand, in which we are to be delivered up to persecution, &c. These words denote that persecution which the Jews, now near their ruin, stirred up almost everywhere against the professors of the gospel. They had indeed oppressed them hitherto on all sides, as far as they could, with slanders, rapines, whippings, stripes, &c. which these and such like places testify; 1 Thessalonians 2:14,15; Hebrews 10:33, &c. But there was something that put a rub in their way, that, as yet, they could not proceed to the utmost cruelty; "And now ye know what withholdeth"; which, I suppose, is to be understood of Claudius enraged at and curbing in the Jews. Who being taken out of the way, and Nero, after his first five years, suffering all things to be turned topsy turvy, the Jews now breathing their last (and Satan therefore breathing his last effects in them, because their time was short), they broke out into slaughter beyond measure, and into a most bloody persecution: which I wonder is not set in the front of the ten persecutions by ecclesiastical writers. This is called by Peter (who himself also at last suffered in it) a fiery trial; by Christ, dictating the epistles to the seven churches, tribulation for ten days; and the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world of Christians. And this is "the revelation of that wicked one" St. Paul speaks of, now in lively, that is, in bloody colours, openly declaring himself Antichrist, the enemy of Christ. In that persecution James suffered at Jerusalem, Peter in Babylon, and Antipas at Pergamus, and others, as it is probable, in not a few other places. Hence, Revelation 6:11,12 (where the state of the Jewish nation is delivered under the type of six seals), they are slain, who were to be slain for the testimony of the gospel under the fifth seal; and immediately under the sixth followed the ruin of the nation.

Oratio-

Your assertion that the "end of the age" = "the last days" is just an opinion. It could easily mean (and likely does, in my opinion- which might also be wrong) the end of the JEWISH age which coincided with the destruction of the temple system.

Verse 30 that talks about the Son of Man coming in clouds of heaven with power and great glory is apocalyptic language. Jesus did come to Jerusalem in judgment in 70 AD.

I definitely believe in a future literal 2nd coming. But you don't need the Olivet Discourse for support.