Mere Christianity

Greeting

I am wondering has anyone read Mere Christianity by CS lewis? Any thought on this book you might feel led to share?

God bless
Mj

It has been a long time since I have read it- I need to read it again.

I thought it was really good- I like the style of CS Lewis. I like the way he writes, but you have to pay close attention because it is not overly easy to read.

"Enemy-occupied territory-- that is what this world is. Christianity is the story of how the rightful king has landed, you might say landed in disguise, and is calling us to take part in a great campaign of sabotage."

I would recommend it. I have read it several times. If you know someone who claims to be an atheist, it is a good book for them to read as well.

The last sentence of the article Markus linked to:

"I sincerely doubt that such shallow argumentation will ever convert a knowledgeable nonbeliever."

First, it is not a shallow argument. Is it written for ThD's? No. Is it shallow? Absolutely not.

Second, no argumentation will ever convert a knowledgeable nonbeliever.

Mere Christianity has been one of the most read and respected and quoted books in evangelical circles for years. That alone is s good enough reason to read it.

Is it flawless? Nope- there is only one book that is.

From the book:

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God’s secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example, a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain other points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ’s birth may have been in this position.”

Imo that quote alone is enough for Christians not to have anything to do with this writer. From what I've read about him and understand, Lewis also believed in purgatory and annihilation for those who are not "purged" after death.

One of the greatest deceptions in our day is the belief that all religions lead to God. The Word of God makes it crystal clear that there is no other way to God but through faith in Christ. Either we believe that clear declaration of God's Word or we reject it to our own peril.

Mary Jane-

You are an intelligent and Godly woman. You should be able to read this book and make your own determinations and judgments. Don't let other people do this for you.

You will likely find parts you agree with and are blessed by and other parts that you do not agree with. But there is nothing dangerous in that. I am sure if I read Calvin's Institutes there would be much I agree with but also much I would adamantly disagree with. But I wouldn't let that keep me from reading it. I just don't have that much free time right now.

The passage quoted by Oracio is from a much longer section in the book. It is only fair to see the entire context.

You will not be led astray or harmed by this book. You may think it is tripe, but you will have to read it to find out.

There is a difference between disagreeing in non-essentials and essentials. The belief that faith in Jesus is the only way to God is an essential Christian doctrine. I would also say that belief in eternal conscious torment for the unsaved is essential. I cannot bend on those two doctrines of God's Word. I guess I'm willing to live with being labeled a fundamentalist.

Amen Oracio. Your last paragraph struck a nerve. The Bible says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I'm afraid in this day and hour that to many rely on what so and so says instead of God says in His Word. People allow Jewish history books, bible commentaries, "Greek manuscripts of the Bible," opinions and thoughts of others, dictionaries, etc to replace a real relationship with the living God that comes through prayer and fasting only. Instead of trusting God and taking Him at His Word, some try to reference back to the history books and see how someone else interpreted that passage of scripture.

Paul told Timothy to preach the WORD, not anything else. This is where the church goes wrong is when we try to do it another way other than the way that God has ordained. To see real revival we must submit to God and get the fear of the Lord to come back in our lives. When the fear of God fell upon the church in the book of acts, then God was able to move mightily amongst the His people and the land. How can we expect others to believe the Bible when we who claim to be christians always look to books and other references to help us 'understand' passages we are uncomfortable with? We don't take God at His Word then blame Him or make excuses for lack of fruit/salvation/healings/deliverances.

Jesus is the Word made flesh, the only way to God and if we are to see God do mighty things through His people we must accept the Word the way God gave it to us and not as we wish it to be.

Blessings.

Sorry guy, CS Lewis is not a heretic. If you believe this about him you are in the very extreme minority.

I repeat, do not let any other person dictate to you what books to read or not read. Read them for yourself.

Here’s another quote from the book:

"There are three things that spread the Christ-life to us: baptism. belief, and that mysterious action which different Christians call by different names ”“ Holy Communion, the Mass, the Lord’s Supper.”

Notice that Lewis includes the Catholic Mass as a valid way to "spread the Christ-life to us.”

Oracio what you posted about Lewis in its context is a form of unaversalism,,,,,basic heracy,,,,that a Buddhist can belong to Christ ,by justification through good works ,and adherence to high morality, and teachings from other religions,,,,,if you preach this or write this ,you contradict Christ ,and preach a false gospel,,and hence are a false teacher or prophet,,,,,,,and in the true scenc of the word a heretic

That's just it Gary- CS Lewis was decidedly NOT a universalist.

A great many leading evangelical teachers and leaders and pastors have named Mere Christianity as a major influence. Do you think leading evangelicals would say this if CS Lewis was a universalist??

Saying that certain aspects of certain religions seem to point to Jesus Christ is not the same thing as saying all roads lead to Christ. His point, in context, was that there are grains of truth in the worlds religions because God's truth sometimes breaks through. It doesn't mean they are "saved."

Gandhi acted more Christlike than probably 90% of all Christians. Why? He wasn't a Christian.

I would say he was an Inclusivist. Here's the basic definition of that term:

"Inclusivism posits that even though the work of Christ is the only means of salvation, it does not follow that explicit knowledge of Christ is necessary in order for one to be saved."

Universalism says that all people who have ever lived will be saved in the end, which differs from Inclusivism.

Again, in that quote I posted from Mere Christianity Lewis clearly states that people of other religions "belong to Christ without knowing it".

What else can he possibly mean in saying that they "belong to Christ without knowing it?"

Here's another quote from Mere Christianity:

"We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him."

At best, Lewis seems confused within this same book. At one point he says those from other faiths belong to Christ without knowing it and at another point he says we cannot know for sure whether or not they are saved.

Brother Oracio,
A verse came to mind as I read over these responses and I'd like to ask you a question,... Brother do you find that the apostle Paul was an Inclusivist?
If you answer no, may I ask for your take on Romans 2:13-16?
This (for me) seems to be what Lewis is talking about...

13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16 And this is the message I proclaim””that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

Btw I really enjoy your contributions to, insights into and passion for the cause of Christ+:) and it's in a spirit of meekness that this inquiry is submitted and not to challenge your position-

But we say the same things about the natives in deep jungles that have never heard the name of Jesus. We do not know how God will deal with them- at least I am not going to make any definitive statement about that. However if he deals with them at all favorably it is because of what Jesus did, whether they know it or not.

[edit- I was typing this as you posted Fletcher. My comment is directed toward oracios last post which you also addressed. I think that is exactly what Paul was talking about]

Greetings

I should have been more clear, I have actually been reading the book. It was suggested to me by a sister in CHRIST who loves the LORD dearly. I asked about it because I wonder what others have taken away from it. Now that I am more than half way through I will say that I like the book very much. Mr. Lewis wrote in a very easy manner it almost felt as if I were sitting having a conversation with him as I read. There are some areas of the book that I probably would not agree with but others that are so spot on I found myself saying yes LORD. He writes in one chapter in length about GOD wanting our entire heart, our whole life and will not settle for anything less. I felt very convicted in that because there are areas of my life that I have from time held back not wanting to deal with but I am thankful GOD does not do things my way and that HE is faithful to complete the work HE began in me.

There are many good seeds within the writing of this book and I feel I have grown in my walk with JESUS having read it but I can see the need to filter as I read. As the HOLY SPIRIT gives leading I glean from it what the LORD has for me and I leave the rest.

thank you for taking the time to respond and share the things the LORD has placed on your hearts.

God bless
mj

Thanks MJ.

It is also important to remember that CS was not an evangelical as we use the term- he was Anglican (episcopalian) and therefore has a somewhat different perspective on some aspects of the faith.

JFW, that passage in Romans 2 teaches that through nature and conscience every person can distinguish between right and wrong. We can see this in the fact that throughout history even pagan nations have set up court systems that condemn certain acts such as murder, theft, etc. Many unsaved people behave in certain ways at times which are considered noble, even atheists. But that doesn't mean that they are saved. Notice the preceding verses (verses 11-12):

"For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law"

Paul is making the point there that Gentiles will be judged according to the light of nature and conscience, and Jews will be judged according to the light of the written Law which God gave them.

But to say that that passage is teaching Inclusivism is a stretch and a clear contradiction of the clear teaching of God's Word concerning the exclusivity of salvation through faith in Christ alone.

Jesus declared clearly that He is thee Way, thee Truth, and thee Life and that no one can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). Acts 4:12 declares clearly that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved other than the name of Jesus.

Saints, to say that people can be saved apart from faith in Christ is apostasy, no matter what spin or twist you want to put on it.

I have noticed that within evangelicalism there are differences of opinion regarding C.S. Lewis and his writings. Some are for and some are against. I've noticed that there are indeed quite a few respected evangelical preachers/teachers who warn others about Lewis and his writings. So I guess the bottom line is you have to make your own choice regarding Lewis, as to how serious you will take these false teachings of his.

This question came to mind. If people of other religions can be saved without exercising faith in Christ or knowing Christ, why should we be urgent in preaching the gospel or getting the gospel to them? When it comes to those types of people who are very religiously devout and seemingly noble, does faith in Christ simply "add to" or "complete" their faith? Again I ask, if faith in Christ is really not that necessary for salvation and if those religiously devout people will not end up in eternal conscious torment should they die without faith in Christ, why should we have any sense of urgency in getting the gospel to them?

Many believers throughout history, because they have believed God's clear testimony in His Word that only faith in Christ can save, have sacrificed their very lives and died in the mission field in order to get the gospel to the heathen who have never heard of Christ. Was their sacrifice really not that necessary?

Jfw. That section of Romans is actually talking about bornagaing Gentiles who do not have the law of Moses.....it is commonly taken out of its bibilical direct context to gel with a certaint theology and other doctrines .......

When it comes to the false teaching of Lewis,,,,it can be treated in the same way as benni hin and a mirard of other widely respected false teachers ,,,,,,,spit the bones out if you like ,,,,,but a book like that in the hands of the week and the unconverted ,can lead to hell ,,just as benni hinns books can!!!!!!

Your welcome,,,and amen to your post ,, markus ,what is highly isteemed in the world is an abomination in the eyes of god,,,a principle that seems to be forgotten by the majority!!

You guys are trying to make out CS Lewis to be a person who believed all roads lead to heaven. That is absolutely untrue.

Here are two quotes; one from Lewis and one from Billy Graham:

ӢC. S. Lewis - "We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him.

”¢Billy Graham - "And that’s what God is doing today, He’s calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. ***They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven***." (My emphasis)

So Billy Graham and Lewis believed the exact same thing. Is Billy Graham a heretic or apostate?

Of course not. They are both simply telling the truth. The real fact of the matter is we do not know exactly how God deals with those who have never heard the name of Jesus or have never had a realistic opportunity of coming to know Him. We just don't know. Lewis and Graham dare to hope that God will be merciful toward them. If you choose to believe that God would place people in areas that never hear the name of Jesus and then toss them into eternal torment for their ignorance, I guess that is your prerogative. But count me out of that mess.

Brother Oracio,
Thank you for your response. I wasn't actually suggesting that Paul was an inclusionist, rather was suggestion that perhaps Lewis wasn't and in fact was referring to the Romans 2 passage when he wrote the words in question. While I can't know specifically what he had in mind, I nonetheless extend grace in the form of the "benefit of the doubt" to brother Lewis.
In any case I do believe God when He says he will look on mens hearts and show mercy to whom He will. At the end of the day I do,( like TMK), hold out hope for those who never heard but nonetheless live upright by the law He put in their heart and the light of their conscience.

Brothagary, I must admit I had not heard that take on that passage and while I’d disagree with it it’s not a serious disagreement, as with the interpretation of it that Inclusivists put on it.

Regarding the popularity of C.S. Lewis’ writings, we can say the same thing about the popularity of Joel Osteen’s and Rick Warren’s writings. We must remember that many times, that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable to the Lord (Luke 16:15).

Regarding Billy Graham, yes that quote from him does indeed reflect apostasy, a turning away from the biblical gospel. Here is the short clip of it where Robert Schuller (another apostate minister) interviews Graham and says that that statement from him is so wonderful to hear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrf60-zHl9A

Billy Graham has been proven to be much compromised in his ministry over the years. I used to like him, as do most evangelicals, but I realized the seriousness of his compromise with the Roman Catholic Church (holding crusades for them and telling them that they can remain in that false system) and his false teaching of inclusivism.

Regarding those who’ve never heard of Christ, this is a common objection against Christianity we hear from unbelievers. What we need to understand is that those people who’ve never heard of Jesus will not be judged and condemned for not hearing of Jesus, but rather for their many sins/crimes against God’s Moral Law. Now, if they have never lied, stolen, committed adultery, fornication, etc. then yes, they will go to heaven based on keeping God’s Moral Law which they have had revealed to them in nature and conscience. The problem is that they have rebelled against that Law; they have done what is right in their own eyes and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. Romans 1 explains why the pagan nations are under God's wrath and judgment, because of their rebellion against the light of nature.

Now, should there be someone who is sincerely seeking the true God in one of those places where Christ has not been preached, God is more than able to make sure that His gospel gets to them, whether through a missionary, through a gospel tract, or a vision. The problem is that those people who worship false gods don’t want the true God; they want to worship God in their own way, and God knows their hearts.

JFW, thanks for seeking to clarify that. However, I still do not see how that is not Inclusivism. Again, Inclusivism says that people can be saved without exercising faith in Christ, which is what you and TMK are saying is possible. And again, that belief is a denial of the clear teaching of Scripture concerning the narrow way which leads to life, which is through faith in Christ alone.

Thank goodness that God, and not man, is the ultimate judge.

Comparing the writings of CS Lewis to the writings of Joel Osteen is like comparing the writing of Beavis and Butthead to William Shakespeare.

Brethren, how much clearer could the following scriptures get:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”-John 3:16-18

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."-John 3:36

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”-Romans 10:9-10

Again, either we believe the clear testimony of God’s Word in this regard (even if we don’t fully comprehend all the implications, as with other essential doctrines), or we don’t. I think one big problem I see here is in trying to use our own understanding or philosophies to explain the ways of God. This is one reason why our Lord said that unless we become as a little child we will by no means inherit the kingdom of heaven.

How can we expect God to send revival in our midst if we deny that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation?

Brother Oracio wrote;
"Now, should there be someone who is sincerely seeking the true God in one of those places where Christ has not been preached, God is more than able to make sure that His gospel gets to them, whether through a missionary, through a gospel tract, or a vision."

Dear brother that was exactly what I was attempting to articulate- and understand what Lewis was also suggesting. I could be totally off base in my assessment of his intentions but that's how I understood it to read.

I'd heard of a missionary who was working in/near Nepal many years ago who had shared the gospel and ministered the grace of God to the Buddhist there for a time, and before he left he felt compelled to visit a monk he had heard about who lived high up in a cave and had separated himself there. After visiting and sharing the gospel with this monk, the evangelist was surprised by the overwhelming tears of joy from the Buddhist monk and even more by his reply, as he told the minister he had met Jesus and had sequestered himself so as to learn from Him and that for years he had learned directly from Him but didn't know His name and had prayed that He would send someone to tell him His name and now the monk was overjoyed at finally knowing His name is Jesus and having his prayers faithfully answered.

After hearing this story years ago, it reminded me of when Jesus told his disciples He had many sheep in other flocks that they did not know about.
.....again maybe I'm off on this association but it seems (to me) to be consistent with the God that so graciously saves me.

Greetings everyone, hope everyone is having a blessed day. Jesus Christ said he that is not with me is against me. He that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. To be with Jesus means you accept and line up with His Word. The Bible says again that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. We must never place opinions and thoughts of men above the truth of God's Word.

The Word of God tells us that whosoevers name is not found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire. That's a heartbreaking, but sobering truth. Anyone that is not saved is lost. Regardless of where they are born, or their background if they do not repent and give all to Jesus they will not go to Heaven.

The Bible says that God commands all men everywhere to repent. Whether they are born in America and have heard the name of Jesus, or if they have been born in a far country and never read a Scripture, God still commands them to repent and if they don't they will not go to heaven.

Romans 1:20 KJV
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Everyone of us is responsible to work out our own salvation without fear and trembling. The Scripture above says they are without excuse, no one will be able to say on Judgment day, that they didn't know better.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. He would that all men would be saved and come to the acknowledgement of the truth. God being willing to save everyone will make Himself known to all mankind. Whether they repent and believe the Gospel is up to each individual.

Acts 14:15-17 KJV
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: [16] Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. [17] Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Alsao, Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the gospel to every creature. Knowing the sinful state of the unbeliever and the horror of the eternity that awaits them should they not repent should stir us and cause to preach and speak of Jesus to everyone.

Blessings.

Do infants who die enter into heaven or are they lost? If they enter into heaven then it is a case of not needing special revelation. How about mentally handicapped individuals?

See, we already have two exceptions to the absolutes you have cited.

It will do you no good to argue that they do not have capacity to believe, because the fact is that God sees their situation and takes it into account. This is despite the verses you have quoted.

Straw man argument TMK.

JFW, thanks again for further clarification on that. My point was that God can and does reveal Jesus to some who’ve never heard of Him. But it is essential that they do hear of Him for salvation, because saving faith comes from hearing, the hearing of the Word of God (Rom. 10:17), the Word of the true God of the Holy Bible, not the false pagan gods. They must believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died on the cross for their sins and rose again, as the Scriptures I shared in my last post clearly teach. In other words, they must hear the gospel message of salvation through Christ alone. If we deny this clear teaching of God’s Word it is a serious denial of the biblical gospel.

This quote from you is one I have a serious concern with:
"At the end of the day I do,( like TMK), hold out hope for those who never heard but nonetheless live upright by the law He put in their heart and the light of their conscience.”

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but in saying that people can be saved based on their living "upright by the law He put in their heart and the light of their conscience”, you seem to be implying salvation by good works. One key thing that separates the biblical, historical Christian faith from every false religion is that we do not trust in our own works but in the work of Christ on our behalf. We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again, and we place our faith in Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our sins, not in our own morality or good works because we realize that they are like filthy rags in God’s sight (Isaiah 64:6). Those of other religions trust in their own morality or good works to save them, which is a damning deception.

Regarding that story of that monk, respectfully, I am very skeptical of that story since it seems to contradict the Word of God. Remember, we must test all these types of stories or visions by the clear teaching of God’s Word. If any such type of story or testimony denies the clear teaching of God’s Word we must reject it and stick with the Word.

bearmaster, I have not looked into those testimonies so I can't say whether or not they are valid. I believe it's possible but again, they must pass the test of lining up with God's Word.

Oracio-

It is decidedly not a straw man argument.

The verses you quoted contain no exceptions. If they do, please point them out to me. Therefore you must look to something else outside of those verses (God's character, perhaps?) to find an exception for babies and mentally challenged persons.

And if you have to look elsewhere for the exception in those cases, who is to say the exception does not apply to other cases.

Again I am not arguing that Christ's sacrifice was not necessary.

TMK, regarding babies, we can make a biblical case for them based on certain scriptures. Regarding the mentally disabled, since Scripture is silent on that I cannot speak on it. But common sense will tell us that even if there is mercy for such people it does not follow that there has to be mercy for others who are not in such a condition, as they have no excuse based on God's Word.

Brother Oracio wrote;
"
This quote from you is one I have a serious concern with:
"At the end of the day I do,( like TMK), hold out hope for those who never heard but nonetheless live upright by the law He put in their heart and the light of their conscience.”

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but in saying that people can be saved based on their living "upright by the law He put in their heart and the light of their conscience”, you seem to be implying salvation by good works. One key thing that separates the biblical, historical Christian faith from every false religion is that we do not trust in our own works but in the work of Christ on our behalf. We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again, and we place our faith in Jesus and His atoning sacrifice for our sins, not in our own morality or good works because we realize that they are like filthy rags in God’s sight (Isaiah 64:6). Those of other religions trust in their own morality or good works to save them, which is a damning deception."

Well brother I was simply putting in my own words what the apostle Paul himself declares in Romans 2:13-16, again unless I'm missing something he makes this point pretty clear- no?

9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.

2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;

2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them );

Oraico,

This is why I don't like at all the interpretation that these verses are talking about the unconverted gentile ,because it leads to people thinking that a person can be saved by good works with out faith in Christ ,,as is being put forth ....

Paul would not labour to say that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that there are not righteous not one ,, wile at that same time saying that these same Gentiles are a law to them selves ,and that it was still possible that there thoughts and concences will excuses them selfs ,,and there for still obtain justification ,,

It's a contradiction in biblical doctrine contextual flow truth .

That is why when read carefully ,one can see that these verses are indeed talking about us me you and the gentile converts ,while contrasting the Jews and Jewish converts ,,and that we are not under the law of Moses and that we have know law in that respect, but as Paul said we are under the law toward Christ , through the spirit .......

With respect jfw,,Paul was never saying that and you are indeed missing this point he was making about us gentile converts ,

JFW, since the Bible is clear in many many places that by the works of the law no flesh will be justified but only by grace through faith in Christ, your interpretation of that passage cannot be correct as it would be a clear contradiction of the clear teaching of God' Word. We have to interpret the not so clear passages in light of the clearer passages and teachings of the Bible. This is how essential Christian doctrines are determined. And the essentials are what separate the true biblical Christian faith from false cults and/or false religions.

C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity, give a very exhaustive commentary about what he believes Rom. 2 to be saying. He also gives a commentary on his belief in the final chapter of The Last Battle in the Chronicals of Narnia. It seems that he obviously believed that God would be merciful to a person seeking Him in reality and in truth, even if that person had no light by which to see Him as He really is. I am not sure I totally agree with Him, but this is certainly not universalism by any stretch of the imagination.

I do know, from Mere Christianity, that He had one truth nailed down. He labels the common moral laws that seem to govern most all major cultures and religions as the Tao and says that the fact that these laws are held in common is a testimony to the existence of a creator that is above and outside of all things that must have instituted these laws of morality. This is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 2:13-15. I would have to disagree with Brother Gary here. I don't think there is any scriptural evidence that Paul is talking about Gentile believers in these passages. The fact that he discusses Gentiles as opposed to those who have the law (Jews) means that he is talking about those who do not have the light of God at all. Yet, Paul says, they have a natural inclination to judge themselves by what appears to be many of the same moral laws. This means that they must acknowledge in their hearts that they are accountable to the creator of these laws. And this leaves them without excuse if they refuse to seek after that creator. I think Lewis took this a bit further and believed that a person striving to reach this creator from a pure heart would be given mercy in spite of not having a knowledge of Jesus and His sacrifice.

Again, I am not sure I agree with the level that Lewis took this to. Here is one reason why, even though it is anecdotal. I heard a minister recently tell an interesting story. He met a receptionist at a business and she asked him what he did for a living. He said he was a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ. She exclaimed, "You are the man." Apparently she was a Buddhist and had been going through her prayer rituals the night before. She was sincere, and came to the realization that God had to be so much more than what she was worshipping. She cried out asking God to really reveal Himself. Suddenly she was faced with a glowing ball of light and a voice said, "Tomorrow I will send you a man to tell you of who I am." This minister was able to preach the gospel to her and lead her to Christ. I have also heard of Muslims who cried to God and had visions in which Christ Himself spoke to them the truth of who He is.

So, to me, it seems that God will see to it that the sincere person hears the truth. But, this is one area where scripture is a bit vague.

Again, I am not sure I agree with the level that Lewis took this to. Here is one reason why, even though it is anecdotal. I heard a minister recently tell an interesting story. He met a receptionist at a business and she asked him what he did for a living. He said he was a minister of the Lord Jesus Christ. She exclaimed, "You are the man." Apparently she was a Buddhist and had been going through her prayer rituals the night before. She was sincere, and came to the realization that God had to be so much more than what she was worshipping. She cried out asking God to really reveal Himself. Suddenly she was faced with a glowing ball of light and a voice said, "Tomorrow I will send you a man to tell you of who I am." This minister was able to preach the gospel to her and lead her to Christ. I have also heard of Muslims who cried to God and had visions in which Christ Himself spoke to them the truth of who He is.

So, to me, it seems that God will see to it that the sincere person hears the truth. But, this is one area where scripture is a bit vague.

Brings to mind Acts 17:26-27 - "And God has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us..."

It is so easy talk about people who "have no light” from a distant, sterilized viewpoint and that Jesus will most certainly reveal himself to them if they want "something” more that they can’t quite put their finger on.

I think about a child who is born in poverty in some Muslim nation where from a very young age all he hears or even has opportunity to hear is radical Islam; he has no resources, no books, certainly no Bible, or internet or any other means of hearing anything else. To him, Islam is all he knows. He has no reason or means to explore other religions. At age 14 he is blown up in a military attack.

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?” Gen. 18:25.

In cases like this, I wonder what the "right” thing is?

TMK - But that hypothetical Muslim kid you brought up is also from a distant, sterilized viewpoint.

The same argument could be applied to any people group - e.g. Pharisees becoming Pharisees because that was the primary religious exposure they had growing up in that community.

"Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?” Gen. 18:25.

"In cases like this, I wonder what the "right” thing is?"

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

In first Corinthians Paul speaks about those who are with out law ,if we use a clear passage like this we see that when he uses the term being with out law as he does in Romans ,the bible acutely says those are under the law to Christ ,,makes it clear to the readers that when he uses these terms ,he speaks about gentile believers and not lost pagan idolerters ,,

A clear passage to give light to an unclear passage is the safe way to interpret scripture ,,,,remember in romons says that there are none who do right ,there are none who seek after God ,,,,,you brothers are saying that apart from Christ some are righteous and some seek God ,,,the scripture does not say what you brothers are trying to squeeze out of it ,,,

Also it's worth noting that the idea that says that when some seek God God will send a preacher to that country,,I'm in doubt of that ,because I wonder where in the bible does it say that ,,,, but I do Remember Jesus saying that if the miricals that were performed in capanan, or was it tire and Sidon ,was performed in sodom and gomera they would have repented long age in sack cloth and ashes .......this points to the idea that some how gods did not sovrenly chooses to save any in sodom except lot ,,,the idea of election is playing the only role in this instance as the reason that sodom was destroyed ,,,which is a principle to chew on ,and realise that God Cleary wasn't reliving on those people seeking power in the flesh or a unaversal principal of drawing those people through a gospel presentation with miricals following ,as he quite easily could of done by sending a prophet or preacher so to speak,, as being proposed here ,,

This is a clear scripture ,that Jesus spoke about the pure sovereign grace of God , not being granted to sodom and gomera,,,,,,I'm not sure I see a clear verse that says that grace is available to the none that that seek after to the ,those have all turned a side ,with a clear example or phrase as the one mentioned ,,,not a clear verse ,but only debated verses ,,,,so I'm more likely to go with the clear ,andand use that to bring light to the debated verses , that I'm sure someone will bring up to in vain ,refute a clear teaching and statement of Jesus ,namely the one I mentioned just now about sodom and gomera .............

I think you brother are missing what Paul is saying in acts ,that when he says he has made man of one blood and appointed the times and the boulders of their dwelling that they may seek God groping for him that they might find. Him

He says to the heares that by sovrenly choice you have been chosen to be able to seek God and find him ,he has appoint and destined that you would be in this place to hear the gospel and to seek him ...,through the gospel presentations of the a apostals and namely Paul him self ,,,not through the fallen mind and concences of the evil heart which is despretly wikked ,who can know it ...,,,,faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God ,clear passage ,,,faith doesn't come through other means ,,,how will ther hear with out a preacher ,how gloryious are the feet of those who preach the gospel of pease ,,,,,,I'm not talking about some ones story of so called conversions ,,,what does the bible say....

Yuehan wrote:

"I too have wondered about the same thing. I've concluded that what is important for me is to trust in God's character, rather than trying to conjecture how His right judgement would look like."

Amen to that.

Bear wrote:

"Our Calvinustic brethrwn would say that the young Muslim boy was never elected unto salvation. Indeed if they hold to double predestination they would say he was elected unto reprobation."

Which is just exactly why I trust God's character and not the Calvinistic take on this matter.

I'm not a Calvinist ,they might even rebuke me for my views ,because mine a quite different ,on some points major points ,,,it's really just how i view scripture ,and how I want to be as honest with the text as I see it rather then have a popery principal telling me how I must interpret scripture .. I'm sure you can all apreasiat read the scripture for your self ,and to look at various takes on the text and make up your own mind ,,I know most of you like to read like this especially you brother blain ..

Todd: I am so glad that God will be the judge and not me. It is critical that we obey the great commission and go into all the world and preach the gospel. Romans 2 also says that because their own adherence to a moral law indicates that they know that there is a source of true right and wrong, a God of some sort, that they will stand before Him without excuse. Pretty sobering thought.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law.

I believe that what Paul is trying to say here is that his approach to ministry varies based on the people he is trying to reach (ref. verse 22). When he ministered to Greeks on Mars Hill, he did not even bring up the Mosaic Law. That was totally foreign to the Greeks and they would not have listened to Paul. Instead he referenced the fact that God created all things and took a totally different approach to ministry. But to the Jews, he argued from the law that Christ was the Messiah that they had crucified.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that righteousness can be obtained apart from Christ. I guess the issue is whether C.S. Lewis interpretation of Rom. 2 is basically correct, or out in left field, and what happens to people who have never had the chance to hear the gospel.

I have always personally believed that the fact that these people make judgements of righteousness and unrighteousness is damning to them because they show by that behavior that someone or something higher than themselves, God, sets rules for all men to follow. However, I do not clearly understand how it is that God deals with or judges these people. Yet I have heard many stories of born again Muslims and others like the Buddhist I spoke of who's heart cried out for the true God, and they were answered supernaturally and came to Christ. I also know we are not commanded to go into all the world for no reason.

Honestly, this leaves me with some sense of, "I have no idea.", and maybe that is not a bad thing. What I do know for sure is that God will be the judge and that I am responsible for being obedient to Him regardless of my understanding of His judgement in the end.

Brothers,
Firstly this is quite helpful to me to gain and share in the insights being offered here and I'd like to say, Thank You! to each of you as I mean this sincerely:)
I do however have another question; We see in Acts that Cornelius (who was without the law, not a Jew) prayed and his prayers WERE heard by the God who saves and an emissary (Peter) was sent by God to reveal the truth of Gods spirit (Jesus Christ) to him.... So my question is; a- is this not what Paul was speaking of in Romans 2 regarding the Gentiles? and more importantly b- what happens when we are "sent" the same as Peter but brush it off dismissively and don't go,... does that person remain lost due to our disobedience and if so is their blood/soul on our hands?

To compare the disadvantages of mentally disabled people with the disadvantages of people who are not mentally disabled is a huge stretch. One major problem I often see is in elevating human nature or human morality or "human goodness” above what God’s Word clearly declares. God’s clear indictment upon the human race is that there is none righteous, not even one, and none that seek after God, etc. as Rom. 1:18-32 and Rom. 3:10-18 (among many other scriptures) clearly lay out.

brothagary, I agree with you on God’s sovereignty. I believe God’s Word teaches that if anyone does seek after the true God in one of those pagan nations and God reveals the gospel to them, it’s because they are indeed part of the predestined elect people of God as Ephesians 1:4-5 and other scriptures clearly declare. I think the example of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed a valid example you pointed out. Even as God chose to judge and condemn those cities because of their wickedness, He has chosen to judge and condemn many pagan nations throughout history in leaving them without a gospel witness. I know that that is a hard pill to swallow for many, but again, in the end we must become as little children in trusting God’s Word instead of our own understanding or philosophies.

Yes and even a little child would see the injustice of what you just wrote.

Brothers,
Firstly this is quite helpful to me to gain and share in the insights being offered here and I'd like to say, Thank You! to each of you as I mean this sincerely:)
I do however have another question; We see in Acts that Cornelius (who was without the law, not a Jew) prayed and his prayers WERE heard by the God who saves and an emissary (Peter) was sent by God to reveal the truth of Gods spirit (Jesus Christ) to him.... So my question is; a- is this not what Paul was speaking of in Romans 2 regarding the Gentiles? and more importantly b- what happens when we are "sent" the same as Peter but brush it off dismissively and don't go,... does that person remain lost due to our disobedience and if so is their blood/soul on our hands?

Greetings

I began reading this book because it was suggested to me by a sister in CHRIST(whom I trust) for me to read because of some of the struggles my son is having. One chapter in particular was recommended. In it Mr. Lewis writes about having no excuse when we stand before the LORD. He writes some are born with challenges that others might not have, but in the end we are all given the supply needed to follow JESUS. My son struggles with fear, panic, and anxiety, to him, paying for a pack of gum is a huge task. Left to self he would give in to these fears and challenges with out a second thought, but GOD can be and is sufficient, HE gives us all that we need to walk depending on HIM. If my son has weakness in this area GOD is all the more there for him to help him over come. As Mr. Lewis writes GOD uses some of these weaknesses that we have to draw us closer to HIMSELF and to teach us to rely all the more on HIM. We are dependent creatures, HE made us to be so, we need one another, and we need HIM most of all. Having my son read that chapter has helped him look at things a bit differently, it has helped him gain some small insights and understanding that he did not have before so I count that as beneficial and good. PRAISE GOD.

As I am finishing up the book I will say there is "meat" there and some "bones" as well. I have found this book helpful but I would at this time not recommend it to everyone I know. After much prayer I will admit I do not feel led to share this book with my mother. She is deceived in the RCC church and at this time I believe some of the "bones" written in this book might only solidify that deception for her.So as FATHER leads I will follow.

I come away from this realizing again non of us is perfect, but GOD can and does use many things in our lives to always draw us to HIMSELF, to always point us to JESUS if we are looking for those opportunities. As with everything in life I must walk with JESUS and trust that HE will give me wisdom to know what is good seeds and what are weeds. The seeds get planted and the weeds go to the furnace, in reading this book that way I have gleaned much from it.

God bless
mj

TMK, if you want to say that God is unjust that's on you, you can count me out on that one.

Paul the apostle dealt with that same type of sentiment in Romans 9 where he writes, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Quite the opposite. I believe God is supremely just. That is why I cannot grasp your perspective.

No hard feelings on my end TMK. Take care.

bearmaster, I think I've made myself pretty clear in that regard. But yes, the Bible teaches that those who die in their sins are not part of God's elect. Many are called but few are chosen. Only those who respond to the gospel of Christ were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Notice these clear words of our Lord:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."-John 6:37-40

Jesus told the Pharisees in John 10:26-28,

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."

So Jesus is telling them that the reason they are unbelievers is because they are not of His sheep (His elect). That's one reason why many die in their sins, because they are not of Christ's sheep/Christ's elect.

bearmaster, I am not bringing up Calvinism, I am bringing up the clear doctrine of election and predestination, which is different. Both Arminians and Calvinists hold to predestination and election since it's too clear in the Bible. The question they debate is on what basis God predestines and elects, whether it's based on Him foreknowing one's decision or based purely on His sovereign choice. I'm not getting into that here.

Yep oacio I understand you ,basically agree with you on all the points you raised .

And jfw I agree mostly with what you said about the reality of God that he has showed all men In nature and so forth ,only condemns them , I get that from romons as well,,,

But coliniius was a gentile who was in fluenced by the mosaic by the Jewish customs and was one who feard God ,in a way that prosalits were ,and more then likely by the teachings of Jesus and the apostals preaching in their area , so really is an example how God draws people through the gospel and the old covenant prophetical teachings ,,,, just like the eunuch was ..... These are really different situations then the one talked about here ..

No hard feelings here either, Oracio. I enjoy these discussions. If we all felt exactly the same way about everything it would be pretty boring-- except in heaven of course. I am sure we will all be on the same page there.