A Prophetic Word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer

"The messengers of Jesus will be hated to the end of time. They will be blamed for all the divisions which rend cities and homes. Jesus and his disciples will be condemned on all sides for undermining family life, and for leading the nation astray; they will be called crazy fanatics and disturbers of the peace. The disciples will be sorely tempted to desert their Lord. But the end is also near, and they must hold on and persevere until it comes. Only he will he blessed who remains loyal to Jesus and his word until the end. But when the end comes, the hostility towards Jesus and his disciples will be made manifest the whole world over, and only then must the messengers flee from city to city, in order that they may proclaim the Word where it can still find a hearing. If they run away then, they will not be running away from the Word, but holding fast to it.

The Christian will be hounded from place to place, subjected to physical assault, maltreatment and death of every kind. We are ap­proaching an age of widespread persecution. Therein lies the true significance of all the movements and conflicts of our age. Our adversaries seek to root out the Christian Church and the Christian faith because they cannot live side by side with us, because they see in every word we utter and every deed we do, even when they are not specifically directed against them, a condemnation of their own words and deeds. They are not far wrong. They suspect too that we are indifferent to their condemnation. Indeed they must admit that it is utterly futile to condemn us. We do not reciprocate their hatred and contention, although they would like it better if we did, and so sink to their own level."

Dear brother staff,

I think Dietrich's assessment was correct.

The end time church has been the end time church since Pentecost and been under the Spirit and ministry of Elijah (Christ in us) since then.

Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the POWER OF THE SPIRIT of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and GIFTS OF THE HOLY GHOST, according to his own will?

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of POWER, and of love, and of a sound mind.

The Spirit and power of "Elijah" is not greater than "Christ in us" and the Spirit of Christ must be revived in the Church.

We see the power of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament and individual lives through the centuries and this is the revival people are longing for and praying for. We can all have this same power that previous saints who have gone on before us have walked in.

Since Pentecost we have been living in the "latter house".

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

This "glory" has been experienced by many in the past and is meant to be experienced by us, NOW. Yes, it will be accompanied with great persecution, but only for those who live godly lives.

Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

We are to have this same Holy Ghost, today!

Nice quote from Dietrich Bonhoffer, who nails it. Staff, you might want to consider

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (Rev 13:4-7)

He makes war against the saints and overcomes them. This is not to be confused with the gates of hell prevailing against the Body of Christ, this is more in line with Jesus being crucified. Satan thought he had accomplished a great victory at Calvary but in actual fact, an open shame, a humilation was being made of him even although the exact opposite seemed to be true. We know that just a few days later " up from the grave He arose, with a mighty triumph oe'r His foes." Satan again will believe he has won a great victory then Christ will come in all His glory and every eye will see and every tongue confess that He is Lord to the glory of God the Father. The question in all of this for the saints will be " are you willing to be overcome in the flesh that you might triumph in the Spirit?" Are you willing to glorify a God that has called you to Martyrdom? This same question has been asked by every Martyr down through the ages. By allowing ourselves to be Martyred and not resisting in the flesh, other than fleeing from city to city as circumstances warrant it, we will make an open shame of our enemy and it will be a witness for all the world to see. They will hate us all the more for our actions will be counter to the flesh and bring conviction to their hard hearts...........and then the end shall come......bro Frank

by staff on 2016/1/10 18:54:23

"To Clarify the Spirit of Elijah is (just) a move of the Holy Spirit"

Amen!

And the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ which has dwelt in men since Pentecost. Without Jesus Christ there would be no Pentecost.

Jesus Christ has dwelt in men since Pentecost not John the Baptist and men with the Spirit of Christ have stood up against the Spirit of Jezebel in every century.

Just like Elijah the Church has drawn out the Jezebel spirit in the religious system. The greatest enemy of Elijah, Jezebel will try to stop, manipulate, seduce, or discredit this ministry through any number of diabolical schemes. Today is no different, as the Spirit of Jezebel attempts to discredit the ministry of the Church in all the same ways as we see in Elijah's time. Elijah triumphed over Jezebel however, John was martyred by Herodias, Jezebel's New Testament counterpart.

Many men and women have been martyred by the great whore of Babylon. Today, we all triumph in Christ even if we lose our life. The spirit of Jezebel CANNOT be tolerated in the life and ministry of the Church and exposing this spirit is often met with severe persecution and even death.

As we both know, John and Elijah prefigure Christ who now dwells in His Church. Additionally, half of Elijah's ministry he confronted governments and holy men of God have spilled their blood through the centuries standing up to evil governments which had made alliances with the religious beast.

Elijah's ministry was also marked with 14 miracles and the Church through Christ is marked by miracles, too. There are many more parallels between Elijah and John the Baptist and the ministry of Christ through his Church.

I would be happy to go through them with you.

And of course let's not forget the humility of Christ, whose spirit lives in us.

Ultimately the only person/people that can defeat Jezebel in the Church is people with the minsitry of Elijah.

We just have a difference of opinion, but that is ok.

The source is always Christ and always will be. The Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church because of who the HEAD is.

There is simply nothing more powerful than the spirit of Christ.

God bless and have a great day.
J

Revelation 12:10-11

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now the salvation, and the power, and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

John 12:24-26

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone, but if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Brethren. Satan is defeated when we hate our lives in this world and love Jesus even more than our life itself. Even if loving Him means that we lose our life. We overcome the evil one. Because we do not renounce Christ and give allegiance to Satan. In the end this is what the enemy wants us to do.

A year ago 21 Coptic believers died on the shores of Tripoli. They died with one name on their lips. That name was Jesus. Not one of those believers renounced their faith in Christ. When you look at the videos of these 21 believers their faces are uncovered looking toward heaven. Those who took the lives of these brothers had their faces covered. I think of the verse out of 2nd Corinthians 3:18 that says we all with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord the spirit. That day it was Jesus that gave the victory. That day Satan lost the battle. Indeed Satan has lost the war. I honestly believe that those of that took the lives of these brothers covered their faces because they could not see the glory of God in the face of these maeryrs. And those who cover their faces purport to represent a true religion. Those that cover their faces represent Satan. Those that cover their faces were defeated that day. Because 21 Coptic believers did not pronounce their faith in Christ. It was Jesus that got the victory that day.

This has always been the history of the martyrs down through the ages. Of those who follow Jesus. From Steohen onward those who did not renounce their faith in Jesus. Even unto death the nartyrs of Christ were the victors. These are the ones who are reigning in heaven now. These are the ones who are victorious in Jesus.

But it is through the blood of the martyrs that the kingdom is advanced. Jesus said unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies it remains alone. But if it dies it bears much fruit. Tertullian said that the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church. We remember the martyrdom of Jim Elliot. Through him and the other five missionaries who were martyred in Ecuador a savage tribe was reached with the gospel of Jesus Christ. With the martyrdom of Stephen the Apostle Paul was reached for the Lord Jesus Christ. And one could say countless thousands and millions were reached for the gospel by the martyrdom of Stephen. The martyrdom of Stephen which resulted in the Apostle Paul's conversion. And through Paul his gospel message which still rings through the pages of the New Testament is resulting in the conversion of many, nany, many untold millions to Jesus.

Brothers and sisters it is only when we take up our cross and deny ourselves. Even hate our lives in this world and love Jesus above all even being faithful to Him unto death. Then we can truly make an impact for the Kingdom of Jesus.

Brothers and sisters who is the man or woman that Satan fears? It is that one who overcomes the evil one by the blood of the Lamb and by their testimony and Jesus and by not loving their lives even unto death.

This is the ultimate victory of the church over the evil one. It will be the persecuted church that comes to the fires of affliction and that will not love their life. It will be the persecuted church that loves Jesus even more.

These are my thoughts as testified by the Holy Spirit out of His Word.

Bearmaster

Staff the word martyr in the Greek neans witness. Those who laid down tveir lives for Chriat were the ultimate witnesses for Jesus. And yes Art Katz and Denny Kennuston thiught thy would be nartyred in tveir lifetime. But these dear brothers pasded away due to natural csuses. But did much to advance His kingdom.

But bear in mind these men Billy Graham, Art Katz, and Denny Kennuston lived in Ameroca. The American evangelical church does not have a history of perwecution. Thus nany dear nem and women of God who have an impact for God in America may not be martyred. But that will soon change.

The New Testamest was written sgaibst a back drop of perwecution. It was written by those who were persecuted and martyred for those who were being persecuted and martyred. Evem to this day. Today's perercuted church can better identify with the New Testament than we in Anerica can.

The accurate teaching of the New Testanent, church history, and those who folliw Jesus is that the bride of Christ will go through persecutioj even up until the time of His return. But the pereecuted church will be victorious because He is victorious.

My thiughts.......

Bearmaster

Dear staff,

I like and agree very much with what you just said!

Christians should be known for their righteousness, peace and joy...and love.

And their overcoming attitude in ALL of life's situations.

Forget about self, think of others and preach the gospel.

Staff, have you ever left home or your home country?
You don't seem to have any idea what the real world looks like.

Quote: "When it comes to persecution though the members of SI including Greg(great guy that he is) have a serious wrong attitude and instead of preaching the Gospel are sidetracked with preaching persecution. "
No one was preaching persecution, but we are allowed to warn each other and post a message for discussion
Who has a seriously wrong attitude here?

Before Christmas we learnt that a Christian family in Norway had their 5 kids taken away, are you also telling them "Come to terms with it is what im saying and move on" ?
Very unloving, uncaring comments from you ! May the Lord help you !

Here is a message for all of us:
http://cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/rev-graham-its-open-season-christians-sin-openly-celebrated-highest-office

May the Lord be near to us as it is getting darker and darker

Staff respectfully I don't think Greg is preaching persecution. He does post articles related to the persecuted church. But he also post articles on other things concerning the kingdom. I hardly think that a prophetic word from Dietrich Bonhoeffer is preaching persecution.

You keep saying we need to preach the gospel and not persecution. But let me ask what is at the center of the gospel. The clearest definition of the gospel is found in 1st Corinthians 15:3-4. Here Paul writes.......

For I delivered to you as a first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

....... Brother at the center of the gospel is a cross. It is a cross that Jesus had to carry to Calvary. A cross where He had to die a cruel death for our sins. But Jesus also tells us that we have to carry a cross. Not a cross in which we have to pay for our sins. But a cross where we have to die to ourselves. Consider what Jesus said in Luke 9:23-24.......

If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it but whoever loses his life for my sake, he is the one who will save it.

....... This is the gospel. Not only the gospel that saves by the cross. But the gospel that requires us to carry the cross. This I submit is lacking in gospel preaching today. We want the benefits of the cross. With no requirement to carry the cross.

One way that believers have to carry that cross is by going through persecution. Brother you say that there are some of us that are preaching persecution. Then consider what the greatest Preacher had to say regarding persecution.......

Matthew 5:10-11
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad for your reward in heaven is great, or in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my Name.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, a slave is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will keep yours also.

John 16:1-2
These things I have spoken to you so that you may be kept from stumbling. They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

Revelation 13:9-10
If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes. If anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the fate of the saints.

Brother the above verses tell us that Jesus spoke and taught and preached persecution for his followers.

I could say more but will respectfully post is for your consideration.

Bearmaster

For three years, night and day, Paul did not cease to warn the church about false teachers and wolves in sheep clothing. I am quite sure that in those three years he also preached the Gospel. I am also sure he had his critics for doing so. If some have a ministry of warning what is to come and sharing the Gospel at the same time, what is that to others? One does not preclude the other.........bro Frank

HI Staff, you write.........

"This isnt about warning warning is just being a good watchmen.But who is warning the unsaved in this bunker down,gospel."

First of all the OP had nothing to do with " bunker down gospel," whatever that means to you.

You write..........

"This is gospel of persecution being preached and encouraged is based on a view of the end times that leaves out all the good stuff."

What is? The OP or just some SI posters in general? And when you say " leaves out the good stuff," what does good stuff mean and who is leaving it out?

You write...........

"It hides behind being super holy and Prepared and is elitist."

Wow, that is quite an attack. Anybody in mind and anything to back up such a charge?

You write........

"Will have a go but God will raise up a Church that will know how to stand up and will defeat those who stand against us"

Can you actually tell us what you mean by " defeat those who stand against us?

You write.........

"If you cant see that the type of Church God is raising up then check the word its there right in front of you."

Who is that statement aimed at Staff and what does it mean to you?

"Lets not loose the fight before it even begins,Lets get a few shiney pebbles and take aim."

What does that mean to you. What does throwing shiny pebbles mean to you?

You write...........

"A worry I have is that SI posters will be like Davids Brothers who worked against Gods plans."

What does that mean to you and have you a specific target in mind? If you are going to bring any kind of charges against anyone Staff, you have to be specific and use quotes and so on to see if what you say is actually true or if it is just angry bitter remarks with no foundation against those you dont particularly care for or who see the end times differently from you ( none of which would warrant comments like elitists of enemies of Gods word and plans) ..............bro Frank

by staff on 2016/1/12 7:16:42
What I am saying is persecution is a norm in the Christian Church and except that but don't preach persecution preach the gospel.

Staff, I did agree with you that Christians should not be "dour" or sour, but joyful and confident in their Lord.

I do see people warning about much persecution coming and we are seeing that come true everyday. So, if we are preparing for persecution then I think we are preparing to fight. And how do we prepare but to trust in Christ, and love our enemies. Also, forgiving them for what they do to us. We are commanded not to fight with carnal weapons and to leave vengeance to God (He will repay). But, it would be very loving of you and me if like Stephen and Christ, we would pray for our enemies and ask the Lord to not lay any charge against them. That is the redemptive conduct that Christ is looking for in His people.

God has a plan for the end and there will be persecution still but also their will be a fight,prepare for the fight and if you just prepare for persecution you wont be ready for the fight.

Jesus warned us "in the world you will have persecution, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world". So the way to prepare for persecution or any fight is "to be found in Him". He is and always will be our "ark" for safety.

God has a plan that's what I'm saying and its not the same as it has been down through the centuries.

Why wouldn't God's plan which worked for the Early Church work for us? Can you elaborate on how the plan of God now for His people is different than what it was for the Early Church, or any number of martyred individuals down through the centuries? There are people today giving their lives for the testimony of Jesus. Are they fulfilling God's end time plan?

Even if preparing for persecution worked what good is that to the non Christian?

Ahhh, maybe you should tell us what "preparing for persecution" means to you. I take it to mean preparing one's heart by walking close to God each day and learning to trust Him more and more.

God has a safe haven ready(getting ready) for the Church and for the future Church

If God's "Safe Haven" is not Jesus Christ, I would like to know what it is you have in mind.

It's not the turn the other cheek Church, its the God is coming to Judge Church repent put the sackcloth on and if you dare harm one of his servants while they minister this truth woe is you right now.

Where do you see in Scripture that "turning the other cheek" will end?

The Church will be at its brilliant best in all ways, taking the fight to the world in power and love. I'm sure for this to happen their will be some major global problem or problems but cometh the hour cometh the man or cometh the Church.

How do you see the church "taking the fight to the world". Please elaborate.

In fact what im saying is that we will be hated more than normal because of our success.

Please elaborate about this "success" you speak of.

As to the 5 kids from Norway this stuff will continue until the Church stops being a doormat.

How do you propose the Church stop being a doormat? How are we to stop governments from taking advantage of us, short of fleeing?

Are you proposing physical violence against those who persecute Christians? So that you will not be misunderstood, what exactly are you proposing?

Staff you have been making statements about what the end time church will be but bringing no scripture to support your view. My understanding of the New Testament is that there is no end time ministry of Elijah.

Since the days of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out and is continuing to be poured out. There is revival taking place in the Middle East. The Spirit is moving. But it is moving against the backdrop of persecution.

So I challenge you present to us scriptures particularly from the New Testament that state that's such a ministry you hold to will take place in the end times.

Respectfully submitted.

Bearmaster

by staff on 2016/1/13 8:00:15

Hi Julius,
Yes Jesus overcame the world and because of that fact we will take the fight to the world,

Actually, the Word says that Jesus overcame the world and because He did we will overcome, also.

Again the Spirit of Elijah will come again prior to Christ Return that's how the fight will be taken to the world.

I am really trying to understand you on this. Can you give me the scriptures that you are referencing regarding the spirit of Elijah? How is the spirit of Elijah different from the Spirit of Christ who has given us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness and overcoming?

The whole church will come under his ministry(partly out of necessity) and it will then challenge the world exactly the way Elijah challenged the Israelites on Mt Carmel, it will effect political leaders exactly the way it did on Mt Carmel and it will cause the fire to fall exactly the way it did on Mt Carmel.This is the success I am taking about.

Are you talking about a literal fire? The entire church right now is under the ministry of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. And Jesus Christ confronted the world while He was on earth and is confronting it now and overcoming it through His saints, again, even now. So, I don't see how we will now come under the "ministry of Elijah" but it seems that you think this ministry is for the Church to bring judgement on people. Ananias and Sapphira were in the Church. The Church has not historically classified them as the "world" or false prophets of Baal. Please clarify and supply scriptures so I am clear on what you are saying.

Taking the fight to the world is challenging them like Elijah and overcoming by faith in Christ like Elijah.

Again, what is wrong with challenging the world as Jesus did. And Jesus never turned tail and ran as Elijah did when he hid from Jezebel. Isn't it better to rise up in the spirit of Christ and face the Jezebel spirit head-on? Many courageous men and women have and even lost their lives for maintaining the testimony of Jesus.

Success is the restoration of Apostolic Doctrine and the outpouring of his Spirit again similar to Acts and then the sweeping of millions of souls into the kingdom.

We see in Acts, Stephen being martyred, and Paul being stoned many times. They preached the gospel (took the fight to the world).

I am not proposing Physical violence against people who persecute Christians only in the same way Peter was involved in judging Annaias and Saphira and involved in causing a man to become blind for a season.

Are you saying saints will not have to die anymore and we will just call down fire from heaven to decimate our foes? Again, Annanias and Sapphira were of the church.

{quote]Their will be consequences for those that try and hurt the Church in the End unitl that time is over.Both of those cases judgement came directly from God and are New Testament.The Church in some way come under the protection of God through that Ministry.

Scriptures, please.

The safe haven is the Ministry of Elijah,no it wont be a bed of roses but it wont be lie down and be walked all over like Goliath was doing to the Israelites either,It will be competitive and we will confirm to the world the victory Christ has given us through his death,

I believe that true saints have been confirming Christ's victory through the way they have lived and died, for many centuries, now. The safe haven has always been the ministry of the Holy Spirit which is Jesus Christ in us, the hope of glory.

Hi Staff,

Other brothers on this thread have asked you for Scriptures to back up your opinions, surely you could have no objections to this?

I want to give you my opinion now, a general overview of where I see you coming from. There was a spirit in man that rejected Jesus when He came to the earth, they rejected Jesus in favor of Barabbus. This earthy spirit that yearns for dominance over its enemies is the spirit of man. Jesus was rejected in favor of a man who took the fight to the Romans.

There is a militancy in earthy worldly Christendom that is rife. To its great shame, much of Christendom in America were the ones in the last couple of decades, calling for war and torture and destruction upon " its," enemies. I see this same spirit in your writings Staff. A spirit that wants to call down fire on its enemies. This is the spirit that rejects the calling of Christ to take up their cross and follow Him.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. (Luk 9:54-56)

Staff, I would urge you to let Jesus through His word speak to you. Test the spirits and see what spirit you are off.............bro Frank

PS, do you have an opinion on the Scripture below where the word of God says ( as opposed to mens opinions) that power was given unto the anti-christ to make war against the saints and overcome them.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:6-8)

Again the Spirit of Elijah will come again prior to Christ Return thats how the fight will be taken to the world.
The whole church will come under his ministry(partly out of nessecity) and it will then challenge the world exactly the way Elijah challenged the Israelites on Mt Carmel,it will effect political leaders exactly the way it did on Mt Carmel and it will cause the fire to fall exactly the way it did on Mt Carmel.This is the success I am taking about.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh FIRE COME DOWN from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 13:12-14

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:24

That's exactly the point Mike, we live in that victory and neither life nor death can change that, it becomes irrelevant. The victory is already won and the world is already overcome by Christ and in Him we are overcomers, not to gain any kind of foothold in this world but to walk in the eternal Kingdom He died and rose again to make us a part of.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All too often the last part of that sentence is left out or people are confused and think that people who actually believe that message must be or promote feelings of being " hopeless or helpless." Nothing , of course, could be further from the truth. The vast majority of martyrs who have laid down their lives in the past 2000 years, who loved not their lives unto death, and who now cry for justice from beneath the altar died with joy in their hearts and their spirits filled with eternal hope, not hope as the world hopes, but that sure knowledge that they were merely passing from one world of the flesh into the eternal Kingdom of God fully...........bro Frank

Greg quotes.........

"13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh FIRE COME DOWN from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

Perfect Scriptures to clear through the deception that their are somehow Captain Marvel Christians who are going to go to and thro throughout the earth calling down fire and destroying God's enemies. As Jesus says, those who want this do not know what spirit they are of..........bro Frank

by staff on 2016/1/13 16:18:56

Hi Julius
I think you must judging on your use of scripture heard before the one of the types of the Holy Spirit is" Fire" id find it hard to believe that you didn't,
Also I am sure you have heard in Acts how tongues of "Fire"rested on the believers heads.So I think you know what I am talking about.

I certainly know about the fire of the Holy Spirit and understand the use of it in terms of purifying and sanctifying the church. I am unaware of the fire of the Holy Spirit in the NT, raining down on unbelievers in terms of judgment as was done on the prophets of Baal.

On your other points Stephen was 2000 yrs ago and for sure Stephen and Paul took the fight to the world.

Yes, but men and women (mighty men and women in the Lord) have been doing great exploits for God over the last 2,000 years even up to and including, today. Why? Because of the Holy Spirit.

The man who was made blind was judged and he wasn't in the Church as you know but didn't comment on.

Many men have been judged by God through the centuries. I forget the story but a succession of men have been made blind for something else. I will try to find it.

Edit: I believe it was men that tried to corrupt the written word of God.

The ministry of Elijah will cause Judgement to those who hurt the Church in the end times if necessary like the what I described with Peter.

You mean Ananias and Sapphira? If not, please if you will, provide scriptures. I am sorry if you have already done this. Please indulge me once again.

I am talking again not what happened in the regular run of things over the centuries but specifically the end times specifically ,it will be different.

How do you know it will be different? Where are these scriptures? Because, what is displayed in Revelation has happened throughout the centuries and will continue to happen up until the end. Saints, confronting the kingdom of darkness and being martyred.

The end time Church is different than what we have now and the ministry of Elijah is as I have pointed out the ministry of The Holy Spirit in the end times.Its how he closes the Church age as we know it. The scriptures are very easy to come across just look at the lives of all the people that had the Spirit of Elijah 1.Elijah 2 Elisha 3.John The Baptist 4 The Two witnesses
You will find them in Kings 1 and 2, The 4 Gospels,The book of Acts and Revelation

I think it is only fair of you to take us through these scriptures in a systematic way. If you want us to understand your point of view.

So their is a safe haven in the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the end but in a way similar to the start.I am not saying their is no persecution or Martyrdom but their will be Judgement involved going the other way if necessary. When something gets in the way of the advancement of the Gospel in that time then their will be Judgement.

staff, God has always reserved judgment for Himself (vengeance is mine in Romans 13) and dealt with the kingdom of darkness and those who supported it in many and various ways through the centuries.

Persecution and Martyrdom don't necessarily get in the way of the advancement of the Gospel. It may do sometimes and other times as said by others it advances it.
So to answer will Christians die yes but will they also be miraculously saved like Paul was yes.I hope you read all those scriptures and come back to me if you need too thanks
Yours Staff

Well, you really did not give me any scriptures. You gave me topics and people to read about. It would help if you just gave me the scripture references, at least.

Thanks, staff.

P.S. The scriptures Greg and Frank gave are really worth thinking about.

Thank you, staff. I will be considering all that you just wrote and get back to you.

by staff on 2016/1/13 20:32:27

The Bible says in Malachi behold I will send Elijah the Prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord.
He will restore......
Malachi 4:5

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 3:1 is talking about John Baptist. Keep reading as the Scriptures will explain.

Matt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Jesus said this prophecy about Elijah was talking about John the Baptist.
Matt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Why Elijah? Why not David or Eli or Enoch or Moses?

First, God predicted John’s work as being like that of Elijah (Luke 1:17). Second, he dressed like Elijah (2 Kings 1:8 andMatthew 3:4). Third, like Elijah, John the Baptist preached in the wilderness (Matthew 3:1). Fourth, both men preached a message of repentance. Fifth, both men withstood kings and had high-profile enemies (1 Kings 18:17 and Matthew 14:3).

He came in the form of John the Baptist agreed?

John made the way ready for Christ like it was prophesised
What did he do?
A:He preached that the Messiah was about to come in the wilderness and all Judea and the surrounds went out to see and hear him. Everyone came under his ministry. Mark 1:5
B:He baptized all the apostles: We know that for a few reasons but the definite proof is that Peter said so in Acts 1 21-26

He did not baptize Paul. Here is what Paul mentioned about baptism.

1Co_1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co_1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Being baptized by John does not make the Apostles "come under his ministry”. The apostles are not under John. They are under Christ.

Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

No mention of John the Baptist.

C: All the 12 apostles came under his ministry we know that from the above two statements

You are really reaching here in order to create a doctrine. You can say that the apostles were ministered baptism by John, but after that they did not remain under John. In fact, they were never under John at all.

D:Then Jesus volunteered to come under his ministry even though John did not want him, too.

Jesus asked to be baptized by John. When you say, "Come under his ministry”, you make it sound like Jesus was putting himself under John’s authority.

John reluctantly Baptized Jesus Matthew 3-13 -17 Jesus ministry began the moment as he was baptised and John was a witness of the Holy Spirit descending and alighting on Jesus. Jesus ministry lasted 3 1/2 years.

Yes, but let’s be clear. John did not start the ministry of Jesus. God the Father by the Holy Spirit gets the credit.

E John ministered to Herod( a type Anti Christ)as Herod liked to listen to him.Mark 6:20
F:The wicked woman Herodias asks for John The Baptist Head and gets it.Matthew 14:7we can say John was persecuted and Martyred for his faith)
G:The time of Pentecost arrives,theirs the upper room and Peter stands up and speaks and says that we need to get the number of Apostles back up to 12 lets elect someone that was with them from the baptism of John The Baptist. So the two things that had to happen before Pentecost
A:The Twelve had to be restored
B:The person elected had to have come under John’s Baptism

I would also like to bring out that John did not baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Again, Paul was never baptized by John the Baptist and yet is one of the greatest apostles. There is some interesting discussion regarding whether Peter got ahead of the Lord through a lack of spiritual understanding in casting lots to choose two men and THEN praying about the final one. I wonder if Peter would have done the same thing after he was baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I don’t think you have convinced me that there is something extra special about John’s baptism and definitely, no apostle is under John's authority.

Again, John was a metaphorical Elijah.

Transfiguration of Jesus - Matt. 17:1-8; Mk. 9:2-8; Lk. 9:28-36
Jesus took Peter, James and John up to a high mountain, and Jesus was transfigured into a spiritual form where His face radiated like the sun and His garments were white as light. Moses, appeared with Him as well as Elijah. Moses received the law in the Old Covenant and Elijah was one of the favorite prophets of the Jews and was later taken into heaven in a chariot of fire.

Finally, after Jesus explained it to the disciples, they understood that Elijah (Elias) had come (John the Baptist). See Matt 17:13, below.

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Matt 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Matt 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Peter, James and John were being given a visual object lesson on the mount of transfiguration that tied the old covenant together with the new covenant, and allowed them to recognize that the promised death of Jesus was to be the victory that allowed for His glorious resurrection and spiritual continuance of life in a spiritual kingdom, (not a physical kingdom).

Coming down from the mountain, Jesus told the three disciples not to broadcast what they had seen until after He had risen from the dead. Despite a glimpse of the meaning of resurrection in the transfiguration, they still had many questions concerning the implications of Jesus' resurrection, many of which were not answered until later.

They were also curious about Elijah's presence in the transfiguration, for they had been taught in their Jewish religious instruction, in accord with Malachi 4:5,6, that Elijah would come as a forerunner of the Messiah. Believing that Jesus was the Messiah, it now seemed that Elijah had come in the transfiguration after the advent of the Messiah. Jesus explained that Elijah had already come as a forerunner in the form of John the Baptist (Matt. 11:14). John the Baptist was a prophet who suffered and died, so they should not think it strange or out of order that the Messiah should suffer and die in order to accomplish what God wanted to do. And, this is exactly what happened to Jesus. He suffered and died.

I will go work on part 2, now.

by staff on 2016/1/13 22:17:39

Hi Julius 21
Part 2
Why did Elijah have to come back not David or Moses or Jeremiah etc?

This one is a bit easier to answer. Elijah did not come back. John the Bapist was not Elijah reincarnated. John the Baptist's ministry resembled that of Elijah calling people to repentance.

2Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.

There was no doubt that the people who saw and heard John regarded him as a prophet from God. He spoke like a prophet, warning of divine judgment and calling people to repentance. In appearance and style he was like the prophet Elijah, "a hairy man with a leather girdle bound about his loins" (II Kings 1:8). He survived by eating locusts and honey collected from the rocks in the desert country.

Many confuse the metaphorical in the OT with being literal.

staff,

Jesus explained why He was baptized by John.
Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I already answered why Jesus likened John's ministry to Elijah's. And for those reasons it could not be likened to Moses or David or Daniel.

It was not a slur against Peter by saying that he lacked spiritual understanding to cast lots. He also lacked spiritual understanding after confessing Jesus was the Christ when he said that HE would not have to suffer. He again lacked spiritual understanding when he wanted to build a temple to Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration and he lacked spiritual understanding in Galatia when he practiced dissimulation amongst the Gentile believers for which he was rebuked by Paul.

So, no that was not a slur.

I don't know if Matthias was supposed to be the 12th apostle. I don't think anyone knows. There is a camp that takes it by faith and there is a camp that believes Paul, the apostle born out of due time, was the 12th as he was personally chosen by Jesus Christ, just like Jesus Christ personally chose the others.

1Co_15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

by staff on 2016/1/16 22:23:37

All correct but I’m asking a different question. My Question is Why should it be Elijah to come in the first place or what is it that Elijah is able to do that Moses or Aaron or Jeremiah are not?

by staff on 2016/1/16 19:21:42
Do you accept that John and Elijah had these things in common as well?
Here are some of the other Common things:

A connection to something that lasted 3 1/2 years
Both wore Hairy garments
Both poured water over 12 stones(twelve Apostles)
Both poured water over the Sacrifice
Both caused by fire to fall from Heaven
Both came up against a wicked Queen
Both came up against a wicked king
Both were fed not by the normal way
Both had all go out to see them
Both ministered in the wilderness
Both ministered at the same place at the Jordon River

You seemed to answer your own question and I want you to know that I do agree with these similarities and that is obviously why Elijah is a type of John (foreshadowing of a future person) and John is the anti-type of Elijah (someone foreshadowed by an earlier symbol or in this case, person).

So, I would like you to continue because I want to see where you are headed.

Let me just say in advance that it is important to keep in mind that the prophets "prophesied until John," who was the end of the line of the old covenant prophets. John was the anti-type of Elijah as I have already mentioned in agreement with you (Mal. 4:5; cf. Lk 16:16). Fulfillment of the ENTIRE LINE OF OLD COVENANT PROPHECY HAS COME TO FRUITION IN JESUS CHRIST. Jesus indicates that all who are in His kingdom are greater than John, for they have more privilege, more blessing, and more hope than John ever realized. All who were in the old covenant prophetic age "did not receive what was promised" (Heb. 11: ; Lk. 10:23,24). Christians have all of God's blessings and promises in Jesus Christ (II Cor. 1:20; Eph. 1:3).

Staff,

Thank you for your post. Whether we agree or disagree, we are still brothers and we most certainly agree on the very most important things. It is really nice to be able to challenge one another in the Word without being hateful and I promise I would never engage in such behavior. I appreciate the fact that you are thinking about and considering many things. Many important things, as well do I. You are right in that some things that are talked about refer to the future, which no one really knows for sure and because of this we should extend grace to one another and not shut down a conversation. And we should rest assured that in Christ Jesus, if it turns out we are wrong about something, we won't be stoned. With that said, I look forward to your next post.

Thanks staff, but I was not offended in the least. I love digging into the Word of God and your topic is very interesting. Love you and your heart for the truth, bro.

You know, staff, we are just going to have to see what happens. There are so many interpretations regarding end time events. I have read most of the interpretations in my walk with the Lord and this one resonates with my spirit mostly because the scriptures are cross-referenced and provide much explanation. The other ones really never did witness to me like this one does.

The view of Revelation that I am speaking of and makes the most spiritual sense to me is found here. Of course, I recommend that you read the whole thing.

A Commentary on the Revelation of John
http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/RevelationCommEbook.pdf

Here is an excerpt for you from Chapter 11 and the "Two Witnesses" are mentioned.

Commentary on Revelation 11:3 through 11:19.

During this divinely limited period of time when the church will be persecuted, God will grant the authority of Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18) to His "two witnesses, who will prophesy, though clothed in sackcloth” (11:3). God’s has always demanded that testimony be validated by "two witnesses” (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Numb. 35:30; Matt. 18:16; John 8:17; II Cor. 13:1; Heb. 10:28). Jesus sent out the seventy witnesses "two by two” (Luke 10:1-24). All Christians in the church of Jesus Christ are called to be His witnesses (Acts 1:8), so the "two witnesses” are best understood to be the necessary complement of Christian witnesses who are willing to invest their lives for Jesus Christ, even unto martyrdom, for the Greek word translated "witness” is martur. Jesus identified Himself as the "faithful witness” (1:5). John considered himself a "witness” (1:2). All Christians comprise the necessary "two witnesses.” Speculations have run rampant as interpreters have attempted to identify the "two witnesses” as Moses and Elijah, Peter and Paul, James and John, Luther and Calvin, or as non-personal entities such as Old Testament and New Testament, or as law and gospel. Such specific identifications are trivial diversions which do not serve to encourage all Christians to be witnesses who proclaim Jesus Christ, even in the context of humiliation and hardship (illustrated by the garb of "sackcloth”) unto death until Christ returns.

The "two witnesses” are further identified as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth” (11:4). The two olive trees may represent the oil of the Holy Spirit which is necessary for the light to be expressed in the lampstands, which were earlier identified as churches (1:20). Christians are called to be "the light of the world” (Matt. 5:14), but can be such witnesses only by the power of the Holy Spirit. "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,” says the Lord of hosts (Zech. 4:6) in the Old Testament passage which employs the same imagery of olive trees and lampstands (Zech. 4:2-14). There the two olive trees and lampstands seem to be representative of Zerubbabel, the king, and Joshua, the priest. All Christians are anointed to represent God as kings and priests (I Peter 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6; 5:10), which serves to verify the "two witnesses” as all Christians.

As Christian witnesses are empowered by the Holy Spirit, the fire of divine judgmental action in Jesus Christ proceeds from their mouths. God told Jeremiah that He was making His words in his mouth to be fire in order to consume the religionists (Jere. 5:14). The Christian witnesses have supernatural power to "shut up the sky” (11:6) like Elijah (I Kings 17,18) and to bring forth plagues (11:6) like Moses (Exod. 7-12), for Jesus promised that "greater works than I have done, you shall do” (John 14:12). God’s powerful works through Christians are unlimited as we remain available to His supernatural ability.

11:4-6 When the witnesses "have finished their testimony” (11:7) and the delay is over (10:6), the beast of religion "that comes out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them” (11:7). The physical lives of many of God’s Christian witnesses will be given up in martyrdom, "faithful unto death” (2:10). The corpses of Christians will be strewn throughout the streets of the "great city” (11:8) of religion, later to be identified as Babylon (14:8; 16:19; 18:10), which is historically linked to the religious efforts at Babel (Gen. 11:9). That this is not a literal city on earth is evident from the words of John which explain that this city is also "mystically” or "spiritually” called Sodom and Egypt and Jerusalem (11:8). Sodom is the symbol of God’s judgment on rebellious perversity (Gen. 19:23; Lk. 10:12; 17:29). Egypt represents the captivity from which God delivered His people (Jude 1:5). The earthly city of Jerusalem "where the Lord was crucified” (11:8) stands for the center of enslaving Jewish religion (Gal. 4:25) and the persecution of God’s Christian people (Luke 13:33-35). This religious community of Babylon, a.k.a. Sodom, Egypt, Jerusalem, is comprised of "peoples and tribes and tongues and nations” (11:9) who will observe the corpses of the martyred Christians for a divinely limited time represented by the period of "three and a half days.” The "earth-dwelling” religionists (3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10) gloat over the indignity of disallowing the bodies to be buried (11:9), rejoicing with glee and merriment over the death of the Christian witnesses which they perceive to have tormented them (11:10), and over which they now think they have been victorious. Little do they realize what God is yet to do to express the victory that has been accomplished in Christ Jesus, the victory over all religion!

11:7-10 After the limited time of indignity, pictured as "three and a half days,” the Christians are resurrected. The "breath of life from God comes into them” similar to the imagery employed in Ezekiel’s vision of life restored in the valley of dry bones (Ezek. 37:10). "A loud voice” of divine origin "from heaven” invites the resurrected Christians to, "Come up here” (11:12); to leave the ignominy of the religious city and dwell forevermore in the "heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22) which is "above” (Gal. 4:26), the "new Jerusalem” (Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10). They are translated into the heavenly realm via the "cloud” (11:12) of God’s presence (Matt. 17:5; Acts 1:9). This is no "secret rapture,” as some suggest, for the religious "enemies beheld them” (11:11,12) and were fearful. The religious world is once again "shaken” by an earthquake-judgment of God with divinely limited effects which encompass only "a tenth of the city” and the death of "seven thousand people” (11:13). "The rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven” (11:13). Do they really repent, or are they just responding in order to attempt to save their own skins? Sometimes the similar phraseology of the Revelation seems to indicate genuine repentance (14:7; 15:4; 16:9), but other scenarios cause us to question whether they will repent (6:15-17; 9:20,21; 13:3,4). Finally we come to the seventh trumpet sounded by the seventh angel (11:15). It reveals loud voices from heaven declaring, "The kingdom of the world has become that of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever” (11:15). When the "god of this world” (II Cor. 4:4) is totally overcome and the reign of religion is terminated, then in "the new heaven and the 11:11-15 new earth” (Isa. 65:17; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1)

Christians will experience the unhindered reign of Christ as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (17:14; 19:16) for eternity. Based on His victory at the cross and resurrection Jesus reigns already in the life of a Christian (Rom. 5:17,21), for we "have been transferred into the kingdom of Christ” (Col. 1:13), but the Lord Jesus Christ will reign in unhindered supremacy forever and ever in the heavenly realm. Along with the twenty-four elders we will worship the Almighty God and the Son, Jesus Christ (11:17). God’s bondservants, the prophets, along with the saints and all those who fear the name of Jehovah will receive their eternal reward (11:18). On the other hand, the final and complete judgment of God will come upon the religionists and those who do not receive Christ as their eternal life. The just wrath of God will be poured out, and the nations without God will be enraged as they face judgment (11:18). God will "destroy those who destroy the earth.” All of those identified with the "destroyer,” the devil, as all men are who are not identified with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:2), and who by their religious endeavors have been destructive to mankind and the earth that God created as the dwelling place of man will be finally destroyed. They will face "eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord” (II Thess. 1:9).

The final image in this vision reveals "the ark of His covenant appearing in the heavenly temple” (11:19). This would appear to represent the unhindered access that Christians have to all the new covenant blessings of God in Jesus Christ, "every spiritual blessing in heavenly places” (Eph. 1:3) including the "law of God written on our hearts” (Heb. 8:10; 10:16). 11:17-19 The opposite of His blessings are the cursings of His judgment, and these, too, are illustrated by lightning, thunder, earthquake and hailstorm which are brought to bear upon those who refuse to receive Jesus Christ. What is the ever-applicable message that the risen Lord Jesus has for Christians in every age within this panoramic vision of the trumpets? It might be that the prayers of Christians are indeed efficacious in calling for the release of the fires of God’s judgment to vindicate His righteousness and the victory of Jesus Christ. God’s providential judgments will most certainly be enacted against religion throughout the interim between Christ’s advents, and religion is essentially impotent to counteract that which God does. The pre-set limitations of God’s mercy will eventually come to an end. The sufferings of the saints will not last forever. In the meantime, God gives every opportunity for those involved in religion to repent and to rely solely on the dynamic of the life of Jesus Christ. "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:5).