Dumb Question regarding American Politics

I have a dumb question. I am not trying to start a huge fight so no stone throwing.

Why do Christians insist that the President of the US be Christian?

If I need a dr very badly, I would not choose a Christian dr over a far more qualified Jewish dr. The same would go for choosing someone to repair my car, paint my house, etc.

So why do Christians make being an evangelical Christian a main requirement when they vote for president, or why do they choose to sit out when no evangelicals are running?

Is it just barely possible that the most qualified candidate might not be evangelical?

Now, I understand that there are issues like abortion that drive some of this, but taking that issue out why do Christians feel they have to have an evangelical or nothing?

If it helps, I wouldn't even vote for an evangelical. In fact I don't see how you can be elected to much more than dog catcher and be a Christian.

I'd happily vote for an evangelical if I thought he was qualified.

There has been a lot of talk on social media about "the lesser of two evils."

Many Christians, if faced with such a choice, say they would refuse to vote and thereby potentially let the greater of the two evils in. That may have happened in the last election.

I don't understand that line of reasoning. I think there may be a lot of situations in life where we may have to choose the lesser of two evils. Sometimes we may HAVE to make such a choice and not be able to simply abstain.

Uhh.. Don't think they had voting back then.

Which is better- a system where you become ruler because your dad was; or because you are the most brutal; or where people actually have a say in who will lead?

God is not against governments.

To me. the biggest mistake the Republican Party EVER made was allowing the evangelicals to take it over.

Being any one religion should be secondary to their qualifications. my 2 cents!!! :)

TMK asks, "Why do Christians insist that the President of the US be Christian?"

As Christians we desire that all nations(not only the US) have leaders/rulers who love, obey and fear God. Why would we want anything less!

Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Proverbs 14:34

When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. Proverbs 29:2

You are to choose capable men from among the people, men who fear God, men of truth who hate dishonest gain. You are to set these men over them as rulers over thousands, hundreds,fifties, and tens. Exodus 18:21

The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, and his word was on my tongue.
The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. 2 Samuel 23:2,3

And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom given to you by your God, are to appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people beyond the Euphratesm River. All of them are to know the laws of your God, and you are to instruct those who do not know them. Whoever refuses to practice the law of your God and the law of the king is to see judgment executed quickly, whether to death, banishment, confiscation of goods, or imprisonment. Ezra 7:25,26

God's Word above is reason enough to desire that the government of a nation be led by men who follow these principles and reflect such character.

No government is lawful or innocent that does not recognize the moral law as the only universal law, and God as the Supreme Lawgiver and Judge, to whom nations in their national capacity, as well as individuals, are amenable. (Charles Finney)

No man can possibly be benevolent or religious, to the full extent of his obligations, without concerning himself, to a greater or less extent, with the affairs of human government.
Author: Charles Finney

I believe that it is a cop out, irresponsible,
and a lack of stewardship to not vote for
the candidate in any election that is most
in line with God's righteousness and justice
in the affairs of this life.

So mike, is it better to vote for someone who can't beat the greater evil, like some fringe 3rd party candidate, or not voting at all better than allowing the greater evil to win?

As Spock would say, that is not logical.

John Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

(Quotes from John Adams) :
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia ”“ what a Paradise would this region be!

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

Mike, I respectfully object.

The early church was explicitly and intentionally apolitical, even anti-political. It is no rejoinder that democracy did not exist. Men did influence government. The most telling feature of the early disciples' unwillingness to compromise the true faith to political involvement is shown in such writings as, say, Tertullian's statement that nothing was more foreign to Christians than the affairs of state, Lactantius who said it was better to be governed than to govern because to govern would lead Christians to despise the commandments of God in favor of the luxuries of ruling, the "Testament of our Lord", a 4th c. writing wherein soldiers and magistrates could not be baptized without quitting their offices, and many others. Men in the ancient Roman army who converted to Christ were executed as martyrs when they refused to serve any longer. These are hardly cop outs or poor stewards, but they also were criticized as such by compromisers like Celsus who wanted Christians to jump into political involvement. So, yours is not the first criticism and it won't be the last. But, understand that the earliest witness of Christ in the church before it entered the dark ages and was co-opted by civil government and greed and the lust for power overtook it was the very thing you now condemn.

Tim- question.

In light of what you wrote, would you say it is impossible for a true believer to be led by the HS to enter the political arena?

I think it is possible for a true believer to truly believe the Holy Spirit leads him into the political arena. I truly do not believe the Holy Spirit will do so.

I'll accept the burden of producing biblical reasons for my belief. I'll also accept the fact that these reasons may not be persuasive to anyone in particular.

A. The only government Jesus preached was His kingdom and the kingdom He would bring to Earth in the final eschaton.

B. Jesus explicitly de-linked His kingdom from the orders of this world.

C. Only in vanquishing and eliminating the power of the kingdoms of this world and in fully displacing the entire order of this world does Scripture tell us that "the kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdom of our God and His Christ" (Rev. 11:15), and that His entry into that exclusive reign is "destroying those who destroyed the earth" (v. 18). The inescapable implication is that everything about the order of this present age is destruction of the creation. When read with Romans 8:20 and Paul's reasoning there, it is clear that the powers of this age are part of the destructive futility to which all creation is subjected and from which our redemption awaits. Our redemption from futility is impossible to find in that very same destructive futility (which civil government/politics embodies). The suggestion that we can somehow "redeem" society or government or anything of it by our involvement is facially absurd (not instinctively so, but logically absurd and self-defeating).

D. When tempted by Satan, Jesus was offered earthly power. He rejected it. In keeping with this refusal of the Christ to embrace the powers of this age -- explicitly rejecting earthly power on more than one occasion -- Jesus set a model for His followers. Lest anyone say, "Well, He only did that because it was offered to Him by Satan," remember that Jesus was confronted by Pilate about His lack of earthly power as a supposed king, to which Jesus replied that He could (had He wanted) summon an army of angels to come to His aid. Jesus not only refused earthly power (and modeled that refusal for His church), but He refused even legitimate power that was rightly His in order to submit Himself to the Father. Revelation 12 says of faithful followers of Jesus that "they loved not their lives even unto death" and that by their deaths (through all ages) and their rejection and refusal to bow to the powers of this age, Christians overcome it by the word of their testimony and the fact that Jesus had shed His blood and had not loved His life unto death.

So the picture of Scripture in this final point is that all power which we might avail ourselves of is illegitimate except the power to die that He may be glorified. What will kill us? The very powers that Jesus rejected time and again, the very powers that will put His people to death (and already do), and that we are clamoring over to get a seat at the table. So, no, I don't see how the Holy Spirit will lead anyone to that.

Now, does that prove to anyone here or anywhere that Christians should shun politics and voting and political office? I seriously doubt it. But, the authority of the Bible is clear. The witness of Scripture is sufficient and without need of supplement by philosophy. What we get in the last 300 years or so is a heavy dose of philosophy by men that, let's assume, meant well enough. There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death. Moreover, I don't bear the responsibility of persuasion. Everyone must be convinced in his own heart of these things, and let us walk in as much peace with one another as we can.

In reference to point B, would that not apply to many occupations- in your case law, in mine, insurance?

Not yours. :). That is unless you work for State Farm or Blue Cross in Alabama. :) "Don't ask, don't tell!"

Mine? Very possibly. I rage at the existence of the machine from within and am a little bitty spring in it.

It might well apply to big business power brokers, judges, majors, and not a few bishops.

"If religious books are not widely circulated among the masses in this country, I do not know what is going to become of us as a nation. If truth be not diffused, then error will be. If God and His Word are not known and received, the devil and his works will gain the ascendency. If the evangelical volume does not reach every hamlet, the pages of a corrupt and licentious literature will. If the power of the gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of this land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end.”
”• Daniel Webster

"I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe. Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger. I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing. Make them intelligent, and they will be vigilant; give them the means of detecting the wrong, and they will apply the remedy.”
”• Daniel Webster

There is no remedy for earthly power except the gospel of Christ which eschews it altogether.

If God was not interested in governmental
leaders, He would have not commanded us
to pray for them.

The truth is that where there is an absence
of God in any arena of life and culture evil
is present.

We need God in our homes, in our jobs,
in our schools, and in our government.

Christian leaders that are honest and men
of integrity are to be preferred over corrupt
men.

We vote for men of integrity and principle
because this is the means that God will
use to change the unjust laws of the land.
It starts with men being saved and
enlightened, but we have been called
by God to be salt and light in this world.

True revival will affect the society that we
are living in , and that includes government

Mike we won't convince each other. I will not try, and it is as much out of respect and love as it is out of knowing there is no use.

I challenge your notions. For example, "where there is an absence of God in any arena of life and culture evil is present." Objectively, God is not absent. Objectively, evil exists where men do not like to retain God in their thoughts. The evil begins inwardly and comes from the darkened heart. Therefore, evil in "arenas of life and culture" exist not because of ungodly people in government, but because ungodly people are ungodly. There is actually unfolding before us proof positive that our efforts as Christians to weight the dice of government in "our" direction has only corrupted Christian faith (promoting ungodliness) and not proof that godly men and women in government (assuming without proof there are any) preserve moral health or prevent moral death. This is easily seen in mere observation without any particular appeal to the Scriptures which set forth a singular theme that civil government is the enemy of Christ.

Yes, we need God utterly. But, I also would ask why you fragment life into these arenas. God does not. I suggest to you, and the thinking of others that think as you do, that this fragmentation is a convenience to allow you to make your point rhetorically without actually setting forth substantive truth. I doubt you see it and I know you will disagree. It is nearly impossible to "get" someone to see that fragmentation of life is antithetical to Scripture.
Fragmentation in this way seems innocuous but it is devastating. It is an American modern invention of thought and it is thoroughly bureaucratic. It is flatly not Scriptural. The very thing you use as an identifier of our need for God is itself evidence for our need of Him in precisely the opposite way, not in arenas but fully. Men who come fully to Christ and are fully converted, fully convinced of our own badness and of His righteousness see nothing of a need for better human government, but see only a full need for Jesus to return and subject all things to Himself, knowing that we cannot do it for Him by our own devices, including and particularly the device of government.

"Christian leaders" are to be preferred? Christian leaders, in your proposition, would be "better" pimps than unsaved men. They would be better drug dealers and mafiosos. If only Christians would enter prostitution, drug cartels and criminal enterprises more, those areas could be "better." Or, do you think honestly that government is qualitatively different from those things in the face of the length of governmental history from 1 Samuel 8 until now? A history that, by the way, Samuel explained would unfold from the time that Israel rejected God's exclusive rule and chose for a co-opted reign of God and man. An explanation that defined what Israel chose as corrupt to the core in its very nature. Even our so called Judeo-Christian ethic of government, government of men is from the get go an irredeemable thing that has only ever seen an evil mixture of sinful man being overtly sinful and sinful man pretending to honor God.

Now, I admit I am baffled by the idea that "men of integrity and principle is the means that God will use to change the unjust laws of the land." Oh, it sounds true. It seems tru-ish. But, God moves thhe hearts of kings as He pleases and does not need "men of integrity". In fact, I would refer you to the Scriptures that tell us there is none good, no not one. None seek God. Every man goes after his own way. Nothing good dwells in our flesh. Governments of men are purely carnal. Also, please show us in Scripture where this proposition is true. If not, is is a new means of God's activity in the world and is something about Himself we do not get from His Word.

Our being salt and light never gets used as much as it does in this discussion. A Google search of the phrase with the word America demonstrates that in a measure. Voting is the American sacrament. It is the means American Christians choose of their own accord to express the light of the gospel, weakly stabbing a pencil mark onto a card listing fallen men as the priests of the salt and of the light; men who, in turn, weakly rely on arms of flesh to mark those cards to elect them so that they can go as such priests. Phineases and Hophnis all.

dolfan writes: "It is the means American Christians choose of their own accord to express the light of the gospel, weakly stabbing a pencil mark onto a card listing fallen men as the priests of the salt and of the light; men who, in turn, weakly rely on arms of flesh to mark those cards to elect them so that they can go as such priests. Phineases and Hophnis all."

Thank you for establishing the testimony of all Christians who choose (as YOU put it) "to express the light of the gospel" as they vote in America!

What a heavy, spiritual responsibility you carry as you judge the "reason" American Christians vote!

Whew!

Julius writes: "it seems Christians this upcoming election are more interested in issues than integrity (maybe due to fear) as they just want a man to be as forceful as Obama has been, yet forceful at the other end of the spectrum. What kind of President will Christians vote in this year? Only time will tell."

Thank you for establishing the testimony of Christians who (as YOU put it) "are more interested in issues than integrity (maybe due to fear)" as they vote in America!

What a heavy, spiritual responsibility you carry as you judge the "motives" behind American Christians who vote!

Whew!

If you don't want to vote... fine!! Don't vote.

And, sincerely, God Bless you for your walk with the Lord and decision!!!

I am NOT going to judge YOUR motives or quote Scripture.

There are bigger fish to fry.

Julius - in regard to scriptures seeming lack of encouraging saints to be involved in politics, might that be because there really was no avenue to become involved? How would a Christian "run" for Roman emperor, or procurator, or governor, etc?

I certainly don't see a blanket prohibition.

Dspks, I have an honest question.

What is coming from Christ, new Jerusalem or new America?

If new America, then it is good and perfect. If not, then America, old, new or otherwise, is from the world and is not from God. 1 John 2:15-17.

I would really like to hear your thoughts on this question.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

-Declaration of Independence

America is unique... unlike any govt. every established on this earth. As a citizen I have (before God) been given a responsibility to maintain a form of Govt. that honors my God given "unalienable right". (Try finding that any where else on the planet)

I am not trying to establish an utopia...just exercising a very unusual role that has been given to VERY FEW people in the history of the world.

(I am not naive... salvation is of the Lord and not any institution. I can't alter His Word... America is heading toward a cliff... BUT, be involved (to slow down the beast) by providing godly input... I can do that!)

Kinda like taking care of my car.

It carries my dear family to a chosen destination.

Even though I know my car will end up in a junk yard, someday... I occasionally wash my car, check the map, change the oil and do the necessary maintenance to keep it safe and running properly in the direction that is safe.

If there are those who don't want to look under the hood of their car (ie. govt.) and ignore how it is running and where it is heading (without attempting to put on the brakes)... they shouldn't comment or complain when it takes them and theirs over the proverbial cliff.

The metaphor speaks for itself...

The government is a "thing" like a car is a "thing".

The Church or the Holy Spirit is not a "thing".

Who said we are called to maintain "world" government?

US citizens have been called (by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution) to maintain "American" government.

Making correction: Removing Biblical quote. :)

The Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution is like a job description for the American citizen...

If people don't want to show up for work... that's up to them.

"Our ancestors established their system of government on morality and religious sentiment. Moral habits, they believed, cannot safely be trusted on any other foundation than religious principle, not any government secure which is not supported by moral habits.... Whatever makes men good Christians, makes them good citizens."

-Daniel Webster

Votes are Caesar's? Really? Do you realize what you said?? You said that we have a duty in Christ to select and voice that selection among ungodly men for ungodly government, to actually empower and support them and endorse them, which is what a vote is and does.

This view is Exhibit A (one of many exhibits) of the impotency and carnality of the American church. And the depth of how deceived it is.

I agree with Tim that we are never going to see things exactly the same on this ongoing debate that we have seen crop up on numerous occasions on the Sermon Index forum. I just want to make it clear to the brothers and sisters that don’t share my point of view that I don’t think any less of you, and as a matter of fact I believe that you are sharing some truth that I can agree with on this discussion. I have seen too many times that brothers and sisters in the Lord almost come to blows on a discussion like this, and this is when the enemy can really wreck havoc in bringing division and strife in the Body.

I asked the Lord to show me where I am getting off track on this subject, and what the Holy Spirit led me to are several scriptures not to confirm my point of view or those with opposing opinions, but what I believe that the Lord is telling me is to just let it go. That there will not be much agreement on debating this subject, and that as long as we are holding to our own opinions that there would be no fruit coming forth but the enemy would continue to bring confusion and disorder through carnal reasoning and strife.

"But if you have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, and devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocricy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace with them that make peace.” (James 3:14 ”“ 18).

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” ( Titus 3:9).

("Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.” (2 Timothy 2:23).

I

But my most troubling question is whether a true Christian, a person committed to the way of Jesus Christ, one who puts first and above all else the Kingdom of God and God’s righteousness, should ever lead a modern nation state.

My own study of U.S. presidents leads me to believe the U.S. has had only one such person as president Jimmy Carter. We have, of course, had many presidents who claimed to be Christians. In fact, probably all have claimed that. But, of course, as a favorite evangelical Christian saying goes, just being in a garage does not make one a car. And so just being a church member or even attender does not make one a true Christian.

Jimmy Carter made no secret of having been "born again.” And it would be difficult for anyone to claim that he was being insincere in that claim (e.g., just to garner the "evangelical vote”). At the time of his election there was no "evangelical block” of voters. The "Religious Right” arose after Carter’s presidency. Many evangelical Christians did vote for him because he was "one of us,” but many of them turned against him and voted for Reagan to replace him.