Sheep Among Wolves - Chronicles of the Persecuted Church, Volume 1

Sheep Among Wolves is now available to view online in its entirety for free on Vimeo, YouTube & FAI Studios' website. This is a 65 minute powerful documentary on the persecuted church worldwide, but particularly right now in the Middle East in light of the Islamic "(anti) revival", the rise of ISIS, etc. It also interviews the imbedded, anonymous, underground church in these nations, & particularly the ministry of GCM (Global Catylytic Ministries) & the explosive growth of the church there among Muslims. This is not a light, happy go lucky film. This explores & provokes serious attention & thought to the real struggles of the church there, the call to missions/evangelism, prayer, presence &/or financial support for the church, & really makes one evaluate "the cost" being counted & paid by our brethren in these lands at this time. Although I watched in its entirety with my family after pre-viewing it myself, I do not recommend letting small children watch this before you have viewed it & made your decisions in that area - FYI. I have seen a lot of documentaries on the persecuted church, but I'd have to say this is by far the best one I have seen. It high kites reality, the cost, & the sacrifice, hope, faith & joy in seeing God move & save people in the hardest harvest fields in the world, the Islamic nations of the Middle East inside the "10/40 window". There also will be a special silva at next month on March 13th you can sign up for to play at your home, congregation/fellowship through "Spirit of Martydom Ministry" as well, but you can watch now online for free yourself if you like. The YouTube video link is: http://youtu.be/Ndf8RqgNVEY

Sorry for the typos. Apple spell corrector at its finest thinking it knows better than me what I'm trying to say! 😁

Jeff thanks for posting. Particularly the Youtube version. I'm aware of that renting or buying the actual video supports the work of the persecuted church. But unfortunately my budget is limited. But I pray watching this video will help me pray more effectively for the Persecuted Church. As right now prayers are most effective powerful weapon to help our brothers and sisters in persecution.

I would encourage all to view this film. I have seen other videos put out by Dalton Thomas. And again they are excellent. One such video I would come in this Better Friends than Mountains. It is a story of how God is moving in northern Iraq and the Kurdistan Autonomous Region. Dalton Thomas who made these videos has actually moved with his family to northern Iraq to minister. One who is truky laying it down for Christ.

Blaine

Forum I would not recommend you watch this video. I say again I would not recommend you watch this video. I say again I do not recommend you watch this video UNLESS, UNLESS, UNKESS.......

You are orepared to weep.
You are prepared to be broken.
You are prepared to be challenged.
And you are prepared to go to the lost in restricted nations.

If you are comfortable in your Christianity. Then do not watch this video. Because it will disturb you very greatly.

But if you are prepared to be challenged. And if you are prepared to be used by Christ. Then watch this video. I say again watch this video. But I do not recommended for the faint of heart in this forum. But I recommend it for those who have a heart of courage for the Lord Jesus Christ.

The question that I am asking myself. Is not should I go. But why should I NOT go. By far this is one of the most powerful videos I have seen regarding the persecuted church and the global harvest. I encourage all to watch it. But again not for the faint of heart.

Blaine Scogin
Perercution Watch

Blaine, the answer is easy. You go if the Lord is telling you to go. You stay if the Lord is telling you to stay. We cannot be led by emotions and good intentions. 1 Cor. 13.

Matthew 28:18-20

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

Julius we were commanded to go into all of the nation's 2000 years ago. And that command still holds today. The command is GO. Brother Andrew in commenting on these verses tells us jesus said to GO. He did not say come back.

But the particulars of the command to go . Will be realized in the calling God has on one's life. One person may be called to go minister in Iraq. Wheress another person may be called to go minister to the neighbor across the street.

Simply my thiughts.

Blaine

by bearmaster on 2016/2/4 18:13:00

But the particulars of the command to go . Will be realized in the calling God has on one's life. One person may be called to go minister in Iraq. Wheress another person may be called to go minister to the neighbor across the street.

Thank you!

Brethren like Jeff I have seen many videos regarding the persecuted church. And they have been excellent. But by far this is the best video I have seen regarding the persecuted church and the global harvest. If you have not seen this video. I would urge you to watch it. It is on YouTube. I have seen it twice today. Abd I believe I will be watching it several more times.

As I watched the video I was gripped by the paradigm our brothers and sisters have in persecuted lands. One of the most powerful statements was made by a Christian sister who was converted out of Islam. She was asked by a brother. What would should I do if you are being raped by ISIS. The response of the sister will blow one's mind. I don't remember her exact answer. But it went something like this. I am dead to Christ. I renounced all of my rights when I chose to follow Him. If I am being raped. I will say Lord Jesus. I surrender my body to you. Again this will blow one's mind.

In the video a brother commented when I think of persecution. When I think of the possibility of martyrdom. I think of the age to come. In essence this temporal life pales in comparison to the eternal life that one will have with Jesus. This is the strength of the persecuted church.

Again I urge you to please watch this video that are brother Jeff has posted. For I believe it will challenge you. And yes convict you. But I believe that we will challenged to live for something far greater. But something far greater than our temporal lives here on earth. We will be challenged to live for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blaine Scogin
Persecution Watch

Yeah, and I think about Jesus' & the apostles' words about loving the brethren. Much of the western church doesn't want to see/think about these things. But this is a self-centered (& unBiblical, in light of passages like Hebrews 13:3 & others) egocentric "ME-ism" flaw. If people don't think about these brethren & face head on what they're going through leading to prayer (& support for some & going for some), then the reasons are not justified. Some may have "fear" that's unbiblical & it needs to be dealt with head on. Some may think since it doesn't affect them directly, what does it matter to them (em which they may not say overtly that way, but their attitude & actions speak this loudly) & the problem is apathy & self-centeredness. Not trying to put anyone in the bondage of condemnation, but it's just true. If "they will know we are Christians by our love", but we don't even love our foreign brethren under this kind of pressure enough to face/see their plight & let Christ move us to prayer & or support, what kind of love is that? Many People say that a sign of someone's spiritual birth & life is their desire to be with brethren. I agree with that. But I'd add someone's willingness/heart towards our most pressured brethren (who can't do anything for us, so there's no hint of self-motive - although I have corresponded with the brother who leads Global Catalytic Ministries & shared things & he has/is praying for me too) really shows something about our love or apathy too. Without question. Think of the sheep & goats judgement: "what you have (or haven't) done TO THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, you have (or haven't) done unto me." That's red letters too. Anyways, I exhort you all to step out of what "feels good" & really consider these things. These aren't movies of actors. These are your brothers & sisters real lives! They are just as much your/Christ's brethren as much as sister Sally you see at church on Sunday. I think that often doesn't really get thought about the way Christ sees it, the way the scriptures speak to these things, etc. Lord bid that we, in the west especially, have our theological study & mediation (which is a good thing), & our fellowship in relatively complete freedom (which is a good thing), etc. but let us also have the heart of God by the Spirit for our brethren in these conditions. On that day, The first shall be last & the last first. The weak are the strong in God. Let us be true spiritual prayer intercessors, supporters as we are able, & wiling to go & do wherever the Lamb leadeth.

Certainly curious anyone else's thoughts/comments/impact after watching the (now free to view) movie as well.

Did no one else watch the film? Curious if anyone is planning on watching it or planning on tuning into the simulcast on March 13 through SpiritofMartyrdom ministries' website?

Jeff I have seen this excellent video twice. And intend to watch it again today. I will be sending out the link to my distribution list. Also will encourage them to participate in the Spirit of Martyrdom viewing. One of my intercessors is involved in that Ministry.

Saints if you have not seen this video I would encourage you to watch it. Very well done. Challenging and convicting. But also edifying.

Blaine

Greg/Paul/others,
You should definitely check this out. A bit telling (& sad) to me so much of the church will spend hours, days, weeks, months & years in studying certain theological/doctrinal/theoretical/hypothetical/disputable matters, but shys away so often from what's clearly Biblical & spiritual (& tal before us) concerning our brethren in the world right now. It will be comin to a greater degree to our shores in the days ahead too. Bank on it. And that's not fear lingering either because by the Spirit of Christ I am not afraid. I am aquatinted with biblical, historical, & foreign land reality NOW, & though I do not fear what the Lord has shown is coming, I will not be caught unaware & offended either. More important than that, it's that our brothers & sisters RIGHT NOW are being beaten, raped, crucified, chased, hunted, & killed & yet much of the western church yawns, looks the other way, & returns to endless hypothetical, theoretical, theological discussions (which aren't a bad thing, but knowledge ALONE puffs up, while love builds up). The degree we care about the least of these our brethren is the degree to which we care about Christ Himself. That's biblical spiritual fact. That's theology actually affecting doxology (practice). I'm not on some high horse either, but believe this burden to share these things to be 100% of the Lord's Spirit's leading.
God Bless,
Jeff

Greg/Paul/others,
You should definitely check this out. A bit telling (& sad) to me so much of the church will spend hours, days, weeks, months & years in studying certain theological/doctrinal/theoretical/hypothetical/disputable matters, but shys away so often from what's clearly Biblical & spiritual (& tal before us) concerning our brethren in the world right now

Amen dear brother. I was able to watch the video and share it on SI during the first week it came out I believe. Also dalton Thomas's last video.

I am sure if you know I have been involved in encouraging house churches and warning the body of Christ of coming persecution: http://gfel.org/principlesbook-2/ Many brothers and sisters are meeting in this way and seeking to bear fruit now while it is easy to witness compared to times of pressure coming on North America.

We are indebted to our brothers and sisters in Iran, they have learnt much, suffered much, they have made the Bride "more beautiful."

May God allow us to learn from them and stand the test when it comes to us here.

I remember reading this report in a VOM magazine. The brother who was writing it was a medical doctor who served the persecuted church in Nigeria. He recounted this obersation. The simple saints in Nigeria cannot articulate the finer points of Calvinism vs Arminianism. But when faced with a jihadist swinging a machete demand that the Nigerian believers renounce Christ and say the Islamic creed. The precious saints will say NO. JESUS ID LORD. Then suddenly their theology becomes very deep.

Something worth meditating on.

Blaine

Most of The church's response (or apathetic non-response & just looking the other way) actually reminds me of much of the church's response to the holocaust & the genocide of the Jewish race at the hands of the Nazis. Think "just sing louder" & stay self-absorbed while ignoring their plight. Only I believe this is FAR WORSE! In that, regardless of what race it is, it is genocide, & you may think this or that about Israel & eschatological considerations. HOWEVER, we are talking now about the specific genocidal extermination here of believers who confess Christ by the tens & tens of thousands & the apathy seems just as bad overall, if not more so? Crazy to me! As someone once said in the Nazi era, "to do nothing in the face of evil, is evil itself". And I'm not even talking about "taking up arms", but just being willing to look what's happening to the bride squarely in the face AND AT THE VERY LEAST, allow your heart be moved to compassion, to pray & intercede on their behalf & ask the Lord what else He might want you to do? I am speechless at the church's wholesale response (or lack of response) overall to this.

I'm not trying to condemn or exalt myself or anyone else in pride. This observation to me is heart-breaking. If I am only interested in brethren that I can interact with on Sunday & that my relationship to them benefits both of us, but can't put my heart out there for our brethren who are under these tremendous pressures, I think maybe we should look at if our "love has grown cold" & if we truly understand the Body, prayer/intercession, missions & evangelism, etc. I just can't get past it no matter how much I try to see it from different Angles. I think I know how the early church saw it, how the Apostle Paul's missionary & apostolic heart saw it, & how the Lord sees it, by the Word of God & the Spirit of God. This is a prophetic cry for this generation. A wake up call to where we are as the church on God's timeline, etc. Even Spurgeon, who was a theological doctrinal giant in many areas, said that if people mistook his theological positions in God's sovereignty to be an apathetic sit back & just wait & watch attitude, they missed it. Theological study is good & commanded. But Doxology (practice) should be the result, not just head knowledge & further teaching that never affects the heart & the actions.

Jeff regarding the church's response to the Nazi Holocaust. I believe a French historian said those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. The fact that the American church is not responding to the current genocide of a Christians in the Middle East shows that we are repeating the same cycle of history. All I can say is tragic.

I find it interesting that very few have commented on this thread regarding the video. Also very few have commented on what Sandra posted regarding the Ken Millar imprisonment. But take a look at those theology threads. One wonders.......

Blaine

HeyDave,
Yeah, amen. That's a good way to put it. It definitely compels me to look at where I may be giving less than my all & putting it in light of those called to give all & doing it. And this is a Biblical principle too. Often we can read Hebrews 11 which was put there for good reason, but maybe not so quickly connect these historical Biblical examples with real current day brethren right now at this time. But it's called "The Hall of Faith" & it's in there, & it's the same scenario for many of our brethren in the Middle East right now. It makes one consider so many eternal things down deep that the heart is moved in so many ways, & it makes us think & consider these things deeply. And again, it's even more about "them" than it is "us", & our response towards them should be the Lord's heart too. But the effect on our own personal walk/lives/thinking is undeniable as well, as it well should be. Thanks for sharing!
God Bless,
Jeff

It also compels us to think about things we might say at times but never really think deeply about in a personal way like:
1.) Fear vs trusting God in ALL things
2.) truly loving our enemies
3.) Counting the cost & carrying our cross
4.) Eternal rewards vs temporal comforts
5.) True Prayer/Intercession for those on the front lines in the hardest harvest fields

Etc., etc., etc.

Jeff I have just watched this video for the third time. I also sent it out to the people on my distribution list. I implored them to please watch this video. And by far this is the best video I've seen on the persecuted church and a global harvest of souls.

One thing that struck me about this video was the call for a gospel response. That is a gospel response to the Islamic challenge. I believe Joel Richardson said there is a tendency do want to respond to Islamic violence with hatred of our hesrt. That is to want to turn the Middle East into a sea of glass. Rather than respond with a gospel that can change hearts of hate into hearts of love for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Earlier today I was on a prayer call that I had to get off of. The moderator of the prayer call was asking us to pray that the leader of ISIS would not escape the combined American and Russian bombings of Rappa. There were so called Spirit filled Christians who were calling for the leader of ISIS to be neutralized. Needless to say my spirit was grieved.

In moderating Persecution Watch I read the reports of the evil of ISIS. And the so-called Caliph is an evil man. But then so is Kim Jung Un or the dictator of Sudan or the leader of Eritrea. These are all evil men. But then we also were evil in God's eyes. Yet God did not consign us to Hell fire. But in his mercy brought Jesus Christ into our lives.
To me the gospel response is to pray that the leader of ISIS have an experience with Jesus Christ. Not call out for his annihilation. The question comes up who are we to consign somebody to hell. Romans 13 reminds us vengeance is mine says the Lord. And He will repay.

Just something and I got out of the video watching it the third time.

Blaine

Praying that people escape the grip of ISIS is one thing, & a good thing to pray. Praying for the annihilation of men? While I can sympathize with the desire to not have the evil brought that they bring, I also don't see any New Testament Biblical precedence or principle in which the focus of our prayers is that the enemies of the Cross be killed. God is God & we should pray for the safety, escape, faithful & bold testimony of the saints, that the Spirit of God fellowship with them in a mighty way in any sufferings, that the Lord lead them & His will be done, & that the Lord save those whom He will save even among the vilest of men, & that God execute justice His way in His timing. That's Biblical. Jesus prayed "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" while men mocked Him & crucified him. Men like the apostles, Polycarp, & many others did likewise. Men like Richard Wurmbrand prayed for & continued preaching to the captors who tortured & beat him. I don't see once anywhere a Biblical mandate/precedence to "call down fire from heaven upon" the enemies of the cross. Jesus told the sons of thunder - "you know not what spirit you are of".

Jeff do you remember in the video where the sister responded to the question asked by the brother? He asked what should I do if they are raping you? Her response blew the brother's mind. She said if they are raping me. I will say Lord Jesus I offer my body as a sacrifice to you. Must admit bro. Blows my mind too.

Blaine

Me too. That's Padina. The radical Muslim who was going to kill herself on Iran Alive's live TV show, but Jesus healed her mom of MS & they both got saved. And That's Mansour's wife. Mansour is the brother who was the big time drug dealer who watched a guy OD & soon after gave his life to Christ. They are the founders & leading family of Global Catalytic Ministries. Yeah, that's so hard to swallow, so radical for Jesus, & so "counted the full cost & ready to pay it all come what may" it really left me speechless. And pondering that kind of radical commitment & love for Christ (& eternal mindset). Wow.

Hi Jeff

I was reflecting some more the video today. What came across to me was the appeal to go. The appeal to be used in the harvest. I believe it was Dalton Thomas or it might have been Joel Richardson who said God does not want us to be awesome or amazing. But simply to be available. I was particularly moved by the sister who is 59. This dear saint said that she had no particular language skills. Or skill sets. She was just simply the arms and the feet of Jesus. And God allowed her to go into restricted nations to be used of Him.

Brother is this what Jesus is asking of us? Simply to be available? Can it be that simple? To simply say here am I Lord? Please send ne?

Can God possibly use someone like me? Someone who is 64 years old and legally blind? But someone who has a heart for the persecuted. Someone who wants to see the lost reached?

Blaine

Ultimately, you let the Lord lead you brother. No gift is a certain qualifier, & no weakness is a disqualifier. The Lord's specific leading & call is all that matters. If that's there, then nothing else really matters.

Jeff thank you brother. Your words are very encouraging. As you know Salt Lake City has been on my heart. But so also are the persecuted. So I'm definitely praying for His leaving. Also going to step out on the water. And see God trouble the waters :-).

Blaine

In reflecting more on this video. I am amazed there are those who feel the call to go to the front lines and labor in the things of Christ. Realizing that such a call may well cost them their very lives. But then I'm reminded of what Jim Elliott said. " No man is a fool to give up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." And as such our dear brother was martyred in seeking to see those in darkness come to Christ.

But then the question arises what am i living for. Am I living for the shallow mean things in this world. Or am i living for the eternal realities of Christ. Indeed my brothers and sisters on the front lines are laying down their lives for the things of Jesus.

Why are we not challenged to be used in the harvest. There's an ongoing thread on the sovereignty of God. As if our finite mind can pierce the infinite God. Should we not rather be seeking His heart. And his heart is the harvest.

I am reminded of what Paul said. The kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. Or to put it in the vernacular talk is cheap. There are those that can come on this forum and talk a good game. That includes myself. But are we willing to put our money where your mouth is. And to lay down our lives and go be used in the harvest.

It is disheartening that so few have commented on the excellent video. But rather would prefer to hear themselves talk on the thread on the sovereignty of God. Why are we not challenged to seek God's heart and to be used in his harvest? And that question applies to myself.

Brothers and sisters the time is short. Whether we like it or not, Jesus is returning soon. Matthew 25 particularly in the parable of the sheep and goats will be our judge. We will not be judged on the theology we hold. But we will be judged by our actions. That is actions that come out of a hard that is changed for the Lord Jesus Christ. Did we minister to the prisoners? Did we clothe the naked? Did we feed the hungry? Did we visit the widows and orphans in their distress? Did we share the gospel love of Jesus Christ?

Again our entrance into heaven will not be whether we believed in a Calvinistic are Armenian system. But rather, did we live out that faith reality of Jesus Christ.

Simply my thoughts.

Bearmaster

Hey Blaine,
Yeah, I definitely understand what you're saying & see the imbalance between head & heart very often. I will say this, to bring/keep a right balance: there is nothing wrong with study of the word of God and theological concepts and doctrines like God's sovereignty. There are actually commands in the scripture concerning studying to show ourselves approved, a workman who need not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. And other scriptures concerning doctrine and the importance of it. And just because spurgeon and Charles Finney couldn't agree on election versus free will, doesn't mean it's not an important matter it's worthwhile our attention and study.
The fact is, it's not a putting one against the other (theology versus doxology - or doctrine vs practice), both are important! It is however very apparent that in much of the Western church in particular, you see a heavy focus on one, and something so clear cut, biblical, and spiritually searching as the matter of our persecuted brethren and the harvest is severely neglected and out of balance. My hearts cry, and I believe the Lord's heart's cry, is that we neglect neither. And I did not mean to say in the previous parts of this thread or another, I forget where I said it, that we should not focus on letting the Lord search our own heart, and make sure we in our private lives are living up to the light we have attained and is readily available to us in the Lord through the word of God in the spirit of the living God's leading. But I am saying that if we spend 99% of our time focused on ourselves and our own group, and don't even really see the value of looking at things like this for our brethren who are just as close to us in the eyes of the Lord because we are all part of one body, then something is severely wrong in the heart of the Church, and we are missing a huge piece of the Lord's heart for his body. It's not an outward and inward and ministry the Lord has called us to , and by that I mean it's not and I'm only about letting the Lord do the work he wants to do in us, there are only focusing on ministering outwardly to others, but both!
May God richly bless you!
Jeff

Jeff I do not mean for my posts to imply theology versus practice. When I was in Calvinism often I would spend my time in idle debate or discussion. Many times condemning those of Arminian suasion because of their supposed wrong theology. Or so I thought in my mind. But they were doing something that I was not doing as a Calvinist with so called correct theology. They were attempting to reach the lost.

I agree that not everyone is called a persecuted church ministries. But there is a harvest in America and abroad. My question. More to myself than others. Is are we attempting to reach the lost?

Simply my thoughts bro.

Funny, I am reformed, formerly armenianistic, but understanding election doesn't keep me from evangelism. Actually encourages me (& keeps me from the despair of "I must not have done it right" 😊).

Tim you are where God had you. You are ministering to the family God has given you. If God brings tgem to your mind pkeade remember thise on restricted nations in your prayers.

Then Jeff my breaux you are an evangelistic Calvinist:). Or ad our perrsecuted brethren would say a Christ follower;).

In the video, Sheep Among Wolves, Joel Richardson is challenging the believers to go. To go to those nations that do not have access to the gospel. Our nation has heard the gospel. Indeed our nation is hostile to the gospel. Jesus taught that if they do not receive you. Shake the dust off your feet. And go to the next village. Or go to the next nation.

Henry Blackaby, in his study on Experiencing God always challenged us to ask the question. Find out where God is working and join him in it. So where is God working. The greatest harvest is occurring in the Middle East. The greatest harvest is occurring among the Muslims. Should we not be asking God. Am I to be used in this harvest.

Much time and money is being spent to preserve the American culture. The American church is putting its resources into trying to reach the lost here that already have access to the gospel. Should the Western Church not be looking at the hills that are right for harvest. That would be in those nations where God is working to bring people to saving faith and life in Christ.

Again Joel Richardson asks a question were we any better than the Muslims when God saves us by mercy and grace. As he shows us mercy and grace. Are we not to show mercy and grace to the Muslim.

God may be turning more and more of the followers of Jesus over to persecution. But this may be to show mercy and grace to our enemies. To show His mercy and grace to the persecutors. But then this has always been the history of the pilgrim remnant church.

My thoughts.

I remember a brother was sharing about his prayer struggle of whether he should relocate to Salt Lake City to be used in the harvest there. He kept asking the question should I go to Salt Lake City? It was only when he turned the question around and asked why should I NOT go to Salt Lake City?

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves the same question. The question we ask of God, should not be should I go to the restricted nations? But rather, why should I NOT go to the restricted nations? Then perhaps we will see His will revealed in our lives.

My thoughts.

I would rather inquire of the Holy Spirit than play logic games with my own mind. Been there, done that. I don't want to be responsible for guilting someone else into being out of God's will for their lives. Plenty of religious leaders doing that every week. "And Peter said, "what about John?" And the Lord basically told him, "that's none of your business, you follow ME". Yep, not your own logic or reasonings and definitely don't compare your walk and calling with others. Also, good to remember, THE NEED IS NOT THE CALL. THE LORD'S VOICE IS THE CALL.

We will see His will revealed in our lives when we stop leaning upon our own understanding and trust in the Lord with ALL OUR HEART.

J I am really beginning to rethink this idea about call. Do we really need a call to go out and share Jesus. I read Matthew 28:18-20 and it sounds more like a command. Jesus does not say if you are called go and make disciples of all nations. He says GO and make disciples of all nations. As I said, this sounds more like a command rather than a call.

However it can be said we have a call. The call that Jesus gave to his disciples and still continues to us this day. Go and make disciples of all nations.

What is presented on the video is not a mind game or logic. But it is a challenge to go and engage unreached people groups with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Simply my thoughts.

And it is maybe even more than that in my opinion a visual seeing of what our brethren are going through. We don't need a call to obey Hebrews 13:3. We don't need a specific prophetic call to pray for our persecuted brethren. We don't need a specific prophetic call to see what they're going through & pray & ask the Lord what He would have us to do. That being said, maybe a call to go to a specific nation or another is not an unfounded principle. But no call needed to give to the least of them, Christ's (& our) brethren & no call needed to see their plight & pray for them. We have the scriptures & Christ's commands & the epistles that tell us to do that. As well as sharing the Gospel with everyone in our sphere. It doesn't compel one in a "guilt trip" manner either. I always find it interesting if/when people will spend hours thinking about, disputing & debating a documentary or book, but won't spend 55 minutes actually watching it for themselves. You should At least Form your opinions & share on the film after having actually having watched it, IMHO. Different people will be impacted in different ways after seeing this film. But either way, be willing to see YOUR/OUR persecuted & distressed brethren's heart with a straight on, honest look at it, rather than in passing theoretical a without being willing to open your heart & mind to these other dear precious saints. That's my 2 cents.
God Bless,
Jeff

by bearmaster on 2016/2/12 17:06:58

J I am really beginning to rethink this idea about call. Do we really need a call to go out and share Jesus. I read Matthew 28:18-20 and it sounds more like a command. Jesus does not say if you are called go and make disciples of all nations. He says GO and make disciples of all nations. As I said, this sounds more like a command rather than a call.

However it can be said we have a call. The call that Jesus gave to his disciples and still continues to us this day. Go and make disciples of all nations.

What is presented on the video is not a mind game or logic. But it is a challenge to go and engage unreached people groups with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Simply my thoughts.

Bear, study how Paul was led by divine calls for major events in his life. If you don't consider this major, then I think according to your thinking you already have your direction. You can stop torturing yourself (should I go or should I stay) and go. Jeffmar might want to go with you. God sent them out two by two. I'm not sure what the number is when you send yourself out. Most people want to hear directly from the Lord, otherwise they will constantly be pulled in a hundred directions wherever the biggest need is. There are people that do these "great" works, and then Jesus rejects them in Matthew 7, ostensibly because they never knew Him and were probably getting all the glory. And that makes sense. When one does not know the Lord, they are not going to be giving Him all the credit and glory.

No offense brother, but Mixing going on the mission field to a particular place for the sake of conscience and a heart &/or mind leading with Matthew 7 is a total misapplication of the text. In fact, Paul was going to one place when the Holy Spirit redirected him in a dream somewhere else. So, when he was going at first, was he in danger of a Matthew 7 judgement as never knowing Christ. Of course not. Matthew 7 is speaking of an entirely different situation/scenario/person. And the fact is, Paul WAS GOING somewhere as best he knew before the Lord redirected him. It was not sin or presumption. He was going based on the best of his knowing at the time. Often the Lord redirects AS we are going, not every step of a call laid out ahead of time. I know this by scripture & experience. Matthew 7 is speaking of people WHO NEVER KNEW HIM. Don't confuse that with someone living up to the light they have attained until God gives them more light. Not the same thing whatsoever. And again, take 55 minutes & watch the film with an open heart/mind before pre-disqualifying anything/everything someone else might take away from it. Proverbs speaks of wisdom hearing a matter out completely before drawing a conclusion. I think that's totally applicable to these type of things where people have all these opinions about things they've never even read/seen for themselves. No offense intended. Just being honest. God Bless!
God Bless,
Jeff

Hebrews 13
3xRemember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body.

I don't need a dream or vision to follow this clear command of scripture. Not me personally. No more than I need a dream or vision (& I FULLY am a continuist & believe in the gifts & God's prophetic leading 100%) to love my brethren in sincerity with a pure heart. It's a general command of scriptural doctrine to all the church.

It's a good thing to desire people to watch a movie to make them aware of things they may not know are going on in the world. But, the passive-aggressive comments, designed to bring condemnation and guilt people into going to these places without a personal word from the Lord, is not a good thing. And you and Bear won't take responsibility for the people that you successfully "move" to such a commitment, will you? Will you care for their loved ones that they leave behind if they don't come back? Young people who want to please the Lord are very impressionable and you may want to be careful about the statements that you make and how you make them. I am not a young person and I have heard these pitches many, many times. It is certainly legitimate regarding what is going in other parts of the world and you don't know who is loving the brethen with a pure and sincere heart or not. It is not very cool how you are presenting this to people.

Please let me know when you and Bear are leaving to go "love your brethren in sincerity and a pure heart." Otherwise, you are just talking and to the discerning ear, it is not how spiritually mature men and women act. But, it sounds very good to the young and zealous.

Wow. Can you show me in direct quotes exactly what I said personally that you're referring to? I'm not young either, & I don't follow you to be honest.

These quotes are yours and Bears. By the way, I'm not offended, just thinking of impressionable minds and hearts that may be reading this.

Would be good to remind everyone of Blaine's statement.

Blaine

But the particulars of the command to go . Will be realized in the calling God has on one's life. One person may be called to go minister in Iraq. Wheress another person may be called to go minister to the neighbor across the street."

Jeff

"You should definitely check this out. A bit telling (& sad) to me so much of the church will spend hours, days, weeks, months & years in studying certain theological/doctrinal/theoretical/hypothetical/disputable matters, but shys away so often from what's clearly Biblical & spiritual"

jeffmar

Most of The church's response (or apathetic non-response & just looking the other way) actually reminds me of much of the church's response to the holocaust & the genocide of the Jewish race at the hands of the Nazis. Think "just sing louder" & stay self-absorbed while ignoring their plight. Only I believe this is FAR WORSE! In that, regardless of what race it is, it is genocide, & you may think this or that about Israel & eschatological considerations. HOWEVER, we are talking now about the specific genocidal extermination here of believers who confess Christ by the tens & tens of thousands & the apathy seems just as bad overall, if not more so? Crazy to me! As someone once said in the Nazi era, "to do nothing in the face of evil, is evil itself". And I'm not even talking about "taking up arms", but just being willing to look what's happening to the bride squarely in the face AND AT THE VERY LEAST, allow your heart be moved to compassion, to pray & intercede on their behalf & ask the Lord what else He might want you to do? I am speechless at the church's wholesale response (or lack of response) overall to this.

How do you measure the Church's "wholesale" response? We are now witnessing over 250 million dollars given to GFA and a weekly prayer/intercessory meeting. GFA was sanctioned by many leaders as the goto ministry and the sheep listened and acted. Now, look what we have.

Blaine

Jeff regarding the church's response to the Nazi Holocaust. I believe a French historian said those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. The fact that the American church is not responding to the current genocide of a Christians in the Middle East shows that we are repeating the same cycle of history. All I can say is tragic.

How do you know the Church is not responding? Who are you classifying as the Church?

Jeff, you even said this regarding God's call.

Ultimately, you let the Lord lead you brother. No gift is a certain qualifier, & no weakness is a disqualifier. The Lord's specific leading & call is all that matters. If that's there, then nothing else really matters.

Blaine

But then the question arises what am i living for. Am I living for the shallow mean things in this world. Or am i living for the eternal realities of Christ. Indeed my brothers and sisters on the front lines are laying down their lives for the things of Jesus.

Why are we not challenged to be used in the harvest. There's an ongoing thread on the sovereignty of God. As if our finite mind can pierce the infinite God. Should we not rather be seeking His heart. And his heart is the harvest. I am reminded of what Paul said. The kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. Or to put it in the vernacular talk is cheap. There are those that can come on this forum and talk a good game. That includes myself. But are we willing to put our money where your mouth is. And to lay down our lives and go be used in the harvest.

We can't say that if a person does not go over to persecuted lands that they are living for shallow things in this world. There are many American Christians battling various things that we have no insight into. There are American Christians and Christians in other not so persecuted lands that are on the "front lines", everyday. The front lines are not necessarily in a persecuted land. The front lines are the will of God for each man and woman.

Passive-aggressive: There are those that can come on this forum and talk a good game. That includes myself. But are we willing to put our money where your mouth is. And to lay down our lives and go be used in the harvest.

Again, you have no idea what is taking place in our personal lives. The harvest is taking place here at home, too. And there are many Believers suffering in anonymity, doing God's will everyday.

Blaine - could this be the real root of yours and Jeffs comments? This is more passive-aggressive. If you want the people on the sovereignty thread (this is a forum, isn't it?) to watch the video, this does not seem like a very effective way. It is hard to get people to do what you want them to with drive-by dissing.

It is disheartening that so few have commented on the excellent video. But rather would prefer to hear themselves talk on the thread on the sovereignty of God. Why are we not challenged to seek God's heart and to be used in his harvest? And that question applies to myself.

Jeff, Blaine,

I don't have time for more. Your comments jump around. First you knock people in the church and on other threads, then you don't, then you say a person should get the Lord's leading then you say it is obvious what everyone should do. It could be confusing to people. The message is good, and it is good to raise awareness because these are real things that are happening and yes they are coming to our shores (already here is small quantities). I have seen many young people in my time manipulated by emotional things that would move anyone to tears. And then they give their life savings away, strike out on their own and find out later that God was not in their decision. He was wanting to do something in their heart right here at home and teach them to overcome in their present situations. You know as well as I do that many people who are disenchanted with their life, lost the joy and peace of the Lord and cannot seem to overcome some habitual sin in their life may think if they abandon everything to go on a dangerous mission it will be the answer to their ineffectual and victory-less life. This is absolutely the person that should not go. And if you and Blaine are in that place with God where you are hearing from Him lucidly, is He telling you to go? Because, we should not be telling anyone to do anything except love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength and leave it up to the Holy Spirit to work His will out in each other's life.

Maybe, you are not getting all the responses that you want to get for a different reason than you are voicing.

I hope you continue to make the Church aware of these things.

I'm just going to remove my initial response comments & be done with the thread.

And not because I don't have thoughts/answers/responses, but because the way you lumped mine & Blaine's comments in together & mine out of the greater context bothered me. I stand behind everything that I actually said in this thread. Without exception.

God Bless,
Jeff

And I wasn't even involved in the sovereignty thread. I am firmly reformed & secure in election. So again, lumping Blaine & I together like we are Siamese twins is not a good method of dialogue.

Julius your comments should be directed at me and not Jeff. Yes, I see you in the New Testament that we are to be involved in the harvest. Either we should be praying for the workers to go into the harvest. Or we should be involved in the harvest ourselves. It is easier to stay behind our keyboards or smartphones and debate theology. Or call Christiane Ministry into question. But it is a lot harder to pray and to be involved in reaching people for Christ. Yes, on the front lines. But also here at home.

We should pray about going to the restricted nations. Or going to nations that need to hear the gospel. But the intent of our prayer should be God should I go? Or rather, why should I not go? Jesus gave us the command which is also a call to go and preach the gospel to all nations. And to make disciples.

You asked me a question and I will give an answer to. You ask when am I going to go. Lord willing, if I can wrap up things in the place where I am now staying. I pray to go to an area that has been on my heart to be used in the harvest there. My heart's desire is the move to Salt Lake City with the intention of being used in the harvest there. If God is pleased. I pray to make that move by this summer. But with the understanding God can certainly change my direction and maybe send me to northern Iraq. But I do intend to let my walk match my talk.

Respectfully Blaine.

Yeah, amen Bear! And just FYI, I have prayed for quite some time about actually wanting to leave the USA. In fact, the Lord has given me glimpses of things that are coming to the USA in the days ahead, & I WANT to leave! I don't want to be in this country for the sake of my family mainly (a wife & soon to be 7 children total all 14 & under). I didn't necessarily "want" to leave Dallas (where I was born & raised) to move to Albuquerque, NM, but the Lord's call became clear & so 4 years again we sold our stuff & moved here. So yes, the call is what matters specifically for us, but how it comes (often in "steps/phases" of clarity AS we willingly step out to the Lords leading) is different for different people as the Lord wills. As I sought the Lord to leave here, He showed me (in a clear prophetic dream & otherwise) that this is where He wants me & who I will be ministering/evangelizing to in the field I am in now. He stood me up on the Sandia mountain peak & showed me mosques all over this city down in the valley in the days ahead. So, now I will study more (specifically Islam), pray to this ends, & pray for & support the brethren on these same front lines in persecuted & restricted lands as if they were my own flesh & blood brothers & sisters (because under God, they are, as we are all in His Body). I do know unwaveringly that many are not even willing to look at this possibility of going, & as Tozer said, "God doesn't speak to many because they've already made up their mind when He speaks something hard they're not going to listen & obey." So call Tozer a condemner or passive-aggressive if you want I guess? And yes, as the Lord leads, I will do whatever the Lord asks me to do for those who have forsaken all and went. And if my own children (who I love more than anyone in this world along with my wife) someday felt called to go into the toughest fields on earth, I would cry, pray, & send them off with prayer, support, the laying on of hands, etc. So see that through natural eyes or spiritual eyes I guess, but I'm being honest. I may not fully agree 100% with every single thought entirely that everyone in the film has about every single matter. But I agree about 95%+ & the heart, passion, & main driving message of the film is great. If anyone's waiting to agree 100% on everything about everything with someone before opening their heart to hear from them & glean something, no one will listen to anyone about anything. That's often how many discredit & disregard everyone (but themselves). Paul says in the scriptures when discussing doctrine, ministry & unity: "and if on some matters we disagree, that too God will make clear" (in His timing).

Bear, I will be praying for you concerning what you feel led to do. May God richly bless you as you trust & follow Him!
God Bless!
Jeff

Jeff, likewise brother, I pray that He will lead you. Evidently you are planted in Albuquerque to reap the harvest there. You indicated that there were many mosques tvere that were springing up. This is the same in Salt Lake City. Not only is there the Mormon presence. But also the Islamic presence And a few other religions throw in.

We do have the nations coming to our front door. Indeed Jesus is right when he said the harvest is plentiful. But He is also correct when he said the workers are few. The plea of Jesus is to beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest. Whether it be the harvest in this nation. Or the harvest in foreign nations. The question is are we involved in the harvest either by way of sending others or being involved ourselves. I guess I would be accused of being passive aggressive.

S sister shared on our call last night a powerful statement from her Perspective Class on World Missions. She said in her class that we are either sending people to the harvest. Or we are going ourselves. Or we are being disobedient. Needless to say after she shareed that. It was a Holy Ghost moment.

I heard somewhere that one of the Old Testament saints had a powerful encounter with God. To the point where he said I'm afraid to disobey. Brother that is what is resonating in my heart. I am afraid to disobey to not go. Or to be in a position of sending and covering in prayer those who are going. I am afraid to disobey and not be involved in the harvest.

Brother what stirs in my heart is a spiritual desire to be used of Him. I hope this is not passive aggressive on my part.

Brother I honestly want some crowns to be tossing back at the feet of Jesus. Not because this assures my salvation. For that is in Christ alone. But to be walking in those works Ge has prepared beforehand. To be used of Him.

Brother I believe this is what resonates in your heart. It is certainly what resonates in my heart. May God be pleased to use both of us to advance His kingdom purposes. Not that you or I or anyone else is dynamic an awesome before God. For we are broken vessels. But it is such broken vessels that God is pleased to be glorified in to advance his kingdom purposes. Halleujah!!!

Brother may you be blessed in Jesus.

So appreciate your hard. Even if you are performed :-) :-) :-). The fact is you are a follower of Jesus as I am. Or as I hope I am.

Truly may the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His sufferings.

Your brother in Christ,

Blaine

Amen Brother!

Let us all have the heart of an evangelist, the mouth of a prophet & the humility, meekness, confidence, & obedience of our Lord's example. That may play out differently in all of our lives as to the exact specifics, but the Lord knows the heart, & let the Spirit of Christ do His work in our hearts & lives first!

I am not yet what I want to be, but I'm not who I once was, & let me be always be able to say in truth: this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind & straining for those things ahead to win the prize in the high calling of Christ Jesus our Lord!

So agree my brother,

I remember something one of our brothers said on that video. God does not want us to be awesome or amazing. He just wants us to be available.

May we both be available to be used of him this day and in the days to come.

Blaine

Yep, God uses the weak & foolish things of this world to confound the wise. That's the manifold wisdom of God displayed to all of creation. Doesn't mean we are to be intentionally foolish or ignorant. Just means we don't have to be the most brilliant & gifted, just humble, obedient, & willing, & God will do in/through us what we could never do in & of ourselves! What a promise! That's grace in action.
God Bless!
Jeff

by bearmaster on 2016/2/13 17:51:57

Julius your comments should be directed at me and not Jeff.

Respectfully Blaine.

Blaine, you are right, thanks. I see my error. Very sorry, Jeff. Please forgive me.

Forgiven, of course