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IS IT RIGHT!

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savannah

Question - An issue with someone I know has been brought to my attention. This person said that they've made a decision to have all 10 of their children killed because he wanted to prove to someone that his wife would still love him and be loyal to him. He claims to be a Christian and that God told him to do this. He told me that he has carried out his plan.

What should I do? Is he justified in doing so or should I turn him in?

He said that his wife is standing by him after all has been said and done.

Anyone have any suggestions on what I should do?

Is it right?

I do not mean to overwhelm anyone here but I have another question.

I also know someone who claims to be a christian who told me that they took one of the married women of their church to the abortion clinic and killed the baby. They said that this was God's will because one of the elders was the father of this illegitimate baby and they'd committed a grievous sin against the Holy God of heaven.

Should I report this to anyone in the church or were they justified and right to do so due to the grievous sin which had been committed?

What should I do?

Is it right?

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sermonindex

Brother by all means report him to his church and to the authorities. Anyone who makes such a claim is not a believer. Do not delay. Report him.

Blaine

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havok20x

This sounds insane. I can't even fathom situations like this happening, especially the first one.

Verify that these things did indeed happen, and if they did, then by all means turn them in.

Are you in America?

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iceman9

Savannah,

My two cents:

You absolutely should report the person to the authorities. God did not tell him to kill his children. If he did this it was not a self-defense just murder and there is never justification for murder.

It is curious the person gossiped to you about taking someone to get an abortion. They should have counseled the person to put the child up for adoption and not murder it and followed Matthew 18:15-17 for handling the elder. Go to them and ask if they had an affair and ask them to repent and step down from leadership. If they do not two should do the same. If he still does not repent tell it to the church.

Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

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TMK

I am not convinced the OP is not rhetorical.

Are you serious Savannah or trying to make some point?

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sermonindex

I agree with Havok, totally insane and undoubtedly not true. The circles this person Savannah travels in sounds either made up or third world or devilish. I am gonna go with hoax because who would even have to ask what to do when someone tells you that they murdered someone. Off the charts crazed thread, probably should be locked..........bro Frank

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Heydave

TMK is right. It is rhetorical.

Let me guess. The 10 children killed relate to Job's children that God allowed Satan to kill. The unborn baby...could that be the illegitimate baby from David and Bathsheba that God took?

Savannah is trying to make a Calvinistic point I think. Don't know what the exact point is being made. God does bad things that we think are barbaric maybe???

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TMK

Good call Dave. I did not make that connection but knew something was up.

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savannah

Thank you all for your responses.

The verdict is out!...REPORT HIM!

It is no surprise to me, nor do I believe it is any surprise to anyone here on SI.

I'll begin with a quote from another thread by romanchog,

"... this is the main question in the matter of FAITH: do we TRUST God to be Who he says He is? Do we even know Who He is?"

THAT IS WHAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO.
THAT IS WHAT I'D LIKE EVERY ONE TO PONDER.

Those persons who are guilty in the scenarios in the OP have been clearly called out for their wrongdoing to state it mildly. We all see it without exception.

Now I quote TMK from another thread,

"I certainly agree that our definition of good and evil comes from God. He instilled that in us. Which is why I feel that ascribing actions to God that seem evil must be avoided at all costs."

And now this quote from dolfan in the same thread addressed to TMK,


"God's character does matter. By it, we know Him; by it, we know what it is He made us to be. But, He is self-defining. He also defines everything else...Whatever I think God is or would be or do is incorrect if His revelation of Himself is to the contrary, even if I find it unpalatable. "Lord, help my distaste to become the taste of heaven!" (for the full quote go to the thread).

Accordingly, the scenarios presented clearly involve evil sinful acts. Any human being who would commit such evil ought to be REPORTED and brought to justice. The verdict is out on that without question.

All are agreed that it is impossible for God to commit evil or sin.

My next question is, what change occurs when a similar act of the scenario given is ascribed to God. Evil is no longer evil if God is the One carrying it all out.

Heydave guessed right when he said,

"Let me guess. The 10 children killed relate to Job's children that God allowed Satan to kill. The unborn baby...could that be the illegitimate baby from David and Bathsheba that God took?"

I'd remind you of the quote by romanchog which is the main matter, and what I'd like everyone to ponder,

"... this is the main question in the matter of FAITH: do we TRUST God to be Who he says He is? Do we even know Who He is?"

THAT IS WHAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO.
THAT IS WHAT I'D LIKE EVERY ONE TO PONDER.

The Word of God,

Job 1:6-22 
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said to Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down upon it. And the LORD said to Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for naught? Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said to Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And there came a messenger to Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yes, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only have escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God hath fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I only have escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yes, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only have escaped alone to tell thee. While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: And behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only have escaped alone to tell thee.

Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell upon the ground, and worshiped,

And said, Naked came I from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: The LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

2 Samuel 12:13-18
Then Nathan replied to David, "The LORD has taken away your sin; you will not die. However, because you treated the LORD with such contempt in this matter, the son born to you will die.”Then Nathan went home.

The LORD struck the baby that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill. David pleaded with God for the boy. He fasted, went home, and spent the night lying on the ground. The elders of his house stood beside him to get him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat anything with them.

On the seventh day the baby died.

Please do not dismiss this, as is the practice of many a professor of a believer in the God of the Bible and the Bible of such God.

Since Heydave guessed right, maybe he'd like to be the first to attempt to answer.

No pressure...just a guess!

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TMK

Now that I "get" the intent of the OP, I appreciate it.

I think I'll sit back and let others chime in first.

S
sermonindex

Savannah, what is your question? Is it do we trust God? Then the answer is yes.......bro Frank

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Heydave

Savannah,
I echo Frank's reply. Yes I do trust God to be who He is and not based on my concept of what is right or wrong.

That said I do not believe the examples you gave imply that God just arbitrarily strikes people dead. Nor does it talk into the discussion of God predestinating (sp?) people arbitrarily to eternal destruction as per the thread from which this ones is an offshoot.

David's son was a judgement of adultery and there is reason to believe that Job's children were indulging in sin (based on his fear). So these are not conclusive proofs of God acting in a random merciless way.

We do ascribe to the view that God alone has the right to give and take life, in a way that no human has that right. In this we submit to His wisdom and authority because without Him we would not have breath of life in us.

For a human being to act in this way (as your illustrations) would be abominable lawlessness. So in that point I agree with you. We cannot 'judge' God on what is good and acceptable among men, or a restriction put on men by God.

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TMK

The only problem is that in Job's case a plain reading indicates that God allowed his children to be killed to test Job- not as a judgment on them.

I love the book of Job but I am not fond of the set up and am not 100% convinced it's not a poetic device. Why would God allow satan to "get His goat" so to speak? Does he not know that satan is a liar and accuser? (The answer to that is "yes")

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savannah


Frank asks,

"Savannah, what is your question? Is it do we trust God?"

And Frank goes on and answers this question with the unarguably and expected standard answer,

"Then the answer is yes...."

The real question is better stated by romanchog which I've already quoted, but will do so again,

"do we TRUST God to be Who he says He is? Do we even know Who He is?""

I think it was Neil who suggested in that other thread that the book of Job be read through twice. I'd suggest one read very slowly through just those verses from Job chapter 1 which I've quoted in this thread before jumping onboard and hastily attempt to steer this ship.

Bless the LORD...as Job!

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havok20x

Life and death are in God's hands. He can issue out those decrees whenever He wants and it is not considered sin.

Humans do not have that authority in most cases. Now if we're talking about justice, etc, maybe, but just day to day life, no.

If I kill someone, it's generally murder.

We can and should derive doctrine from the character of God, as revealed by the whole of scripture.

S
sermonindex

God can take life and give it back. Man only has the capacity to take life. God can give life back to Job's children (not in this world). He only ended their existence in this dimension. He still has power and control over their eternal spirits. Same with David's child. God was punishing David, not the child. Most non-Christian men equate God ending someone's life the same as if man ended someone's life. But, there is a big difference since God still has the final, eternal say in a person's life and we don't.

God is Who He is and God does what He does.

We need a proper understanding of God and a proper understanding of Man and without these two, the Scriptures are confusing, irrational and mythical to most people.

Man is never in a position to bring accusations against God. The book of Job teaches us that.

Satan seeks to sift all of us and cannot do anything without God's permission. We also saw that in Peter's life as Jesus gave us some insight into the spiritual realm regarding Peter. Satan was seeking permission from the Lord to "sift" Peter (tempt him, destroy him). God is using Satan towards His own end.

These things are impossible for the natural man to understand.

Here is a brother that spent 7 years answering the Skeptics Annotated Bible if you are interested.
http://www.berenddeboer.net/sab/

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havok20x

Exactly Julius. Well said!

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sermonindex

get behind me.

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sermonindex

You either trust God or you do not, everything else is trying to figure out how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, pretty standard comment from me. If sophistry were water there would undoubtedly be enough water on the earth to cover the highest mountain............bro Frank

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savannah

Here's the related question coming from Paul,

Romans 9:22,23
What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory.

Some claim election is corporate, but here we read of vessels in the plural.

All the answers in regard to the questions are inconsistent.

Example - I quote one,

"God is Who He is and God does what He does...Man is never in a position to bring accusations against God. The book of Job teaches us that."

D
dspks

"Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.” 2 Timothy 2:22, 23, KJV.

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sermonindex

Amen dspks.............bro Frank

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savannah

Again I say to you that election is not corporate...

and it does not fall into the category of 2 Timothy 2:22,23

The following is an excerpt from a sermon by Thomas Bradbury entitled Vessels of
Wrath found on sermonindex

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=22831


THE VESSELS OF WRATH who they are, and how they are fitted to destruction. The truth contained in these terrific words is hated and despised where the doctrine of election is tolerated. Yes, I say tolerated, because there are many who think and speak as though a sovereign God were obligated to them for their bare notice of the glorious doctrine of election. But I pity from my very heart the preacher it matters not what his position or acquirements may be who will keep back any truth of God's Word for the purpose of accommodating his message to any portion of his hearers. Let the testimony be with a "Thus saith the Lord," or, "It is written;" and what the Lord has said or written may I never be ashamed to declare. If God's Word reveals His mind concerning His electing a people in Christ Jesus before the worlds were framed, and has created them for the display of His own glory, and if the necessary consequence attending this marvellous, this glorious, and God-like transaction is that He has eternally reprobated others by leaving them outside the bounds of His grace, by not writing their names in the Lamb's book of life, by not redeeming them with precious blood, by not regenerating them unto life, by not bringing them into the enjoyment of His love: I say, if this be a certain consequence of God's election of a people to grace and glory, I envy not the man who dares to wrap up or hold back that which God has so clearly revealed. It is mine, however, to stand upon the glorious vantage ground of His distinguishing and discriminating truth, and declare it, though I might be forsaken of all men, knowing that a covenant-keeping God will stand by me. The "little while" of my existence here will soon be past, and my poor stammering tongue will lie silent in death; but my hope is, that my ransomed spirit will then have the approval and smile of my God, in His words of loving welcome, "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter thou into the joy of the Lord." Good, in the goodness of my Saviour, Faithful, in the faithfulness of His own giving. A servant, by His own rich and sovereign grace.

In our investigation of this deep and momentous subject, we will look at the preceding context. In it the apostle Paul declares the sovereignty of Jehovah in His choice and rejection of whom He would, without going out of Himself for a reason in so acting. Paul instances the children of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac was God's eternally-loved one, God's elect, the child of promise. Ishmael! Where was he? Look at him in the light of the exercises of his father Abraham's heart. Abraham bows with profound reverence before his God who had created all things for Himself and saw Isaac elect, but Ishmael reprobate. Sons of the same parents, possessing the same outward privileges, having the same advantages, and remembered before the throne in the same prayers. When God communed with Abraham, and communicated to him the fact that Isaac should be born, and through him the spiritual promises should flow to the Church in all succeeding generations, Abraham's fatherly affection went out toward his other lad, and he cried, "O that Ishmael might live before Thee!" Have we any fathers here this morning who have children, giving no evidence whatever of oneness with a covenant God in Christ, who possess not broken hearts and contrite spirits, who manifest no desire for an acquaintance with their father's God? If so, surely this plaintive prayer of Abraham will find a soft place in the affections of your heart. But mark! The prayers and tears of Abraham for the spiritual good of his child could not alter Jehovah's purpose, or divert Him from the perfect and exact accomplishment of that plan of grace and glory which He arranged and fixed in the Son of His love before all worlds. Paul concludes his argument respecting Isaac and Ishmael thus "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son." (Rom. 9:7-9; Gen. 17:18-21)

Sovereignty is also revealed in the choice of Jacob and the rejection of Esau. "And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac: for the children being not yet born, neither having done good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth." I cannot stand this, says the fanciful philosopher, and the flimsy philanthropist. Who asks such to stand it? I do not, and surely you cannot think that a sovereign God would be obligated to you for doing so? But see! "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written (Mal. 1:2,3,) Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then, Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Now Paul turns to that remarkable conversation when God spake to Moses as a man speaketh to his friend, recorded in Exo. 33:19: "For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion upon whom I will have compassion. Paul then states his conclusion of the whole matter: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." He then points to Pharaoh as an illustration of God's reprobating right and power, and meets the objector with his own objections, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? This is as much as to say, Why doth God find fault if He has created some for eternal glory and shut others up to eternal reprobation. How does Paul answer this? Will he argue out the point with the objector? No. But he will assert God's right to create and dispose of His creatures according to His sovereign will, and communicate to whom He will His mind and intention toward them. God reveals His mind in his Word, and, "Whoso despiseth the Word shall be destroyed." (Prov. 13:13) What does the Word say concerning Pharaoh? "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." He "overthrew Pharaoh, and his host in the Red Sea: for His mercy endureth for ever." (Ps. 136:15) Strange mercy that! It was mercy, not to Pharaoh, but to the people of God whom He persecuted and despised. Paul deigns not to dispute with objectors, but ignores their right to dispute with God. See! "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it, Why hast thou then make me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?" Jehovah has an undisputed right to take of the same piece of earth and make one vessel in whom He will display the riches of His grace, and another in whom He will display the fierceness of His wrath.

You have this stated in 2 Tim. 2:19,20: "Nevertheless the foundation of the Lord standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour." One elected to eternal life, another left reprobate unto eternal death. Carnal reason objects, and neither can nor will believe these glorious truths; but may God in the riches of His grace open them up more and more to our waiting hearts. "What saith the Scripture?" Turn to 1 Thess. 5:9: "For God hath not appointed us (the beloved of God and elect) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." Come with me to 1 Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the Word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed." Now turn over to the epistle of Jude, 4th verse: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." But mark well that tremendous and sweeping declaration concerning the reprobate in 2 Pet. 2:12: "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." "Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." "Surely Thou didst set them in slippery places; Thou castedst them down to destruction." (Ps. 73:18)

But look at the text: "What if God, willing to show His wrath." The purpose and will of God in the existence of the reprobate is to show His wrath against sin. Had these never lived, the glory of His righteousness would never have been displayed. "And to make His power known." The word "power" in the preceding verse means, "right according to justice;" but here it denotes His ability and determination to make sin, which in its open nature is to God's dishonour, glorify His name. "He endured with much longsuffering." This is a remarkable expression. We have seen persons born into the world with malicious inclinations and devilish determinations, running greedily in the way of sin, debauchery, profanity, and cruelty, and at last drop into hell with all their imperfections on their hands, ay, and we have been so short-sighted as to think it would have been better if God had taken them away in their infancy. I know one who lay upon his mother's lap, apparently a dying babe. The breaking heart of the mother begged for the life of her boy. God gave her her request, but she lived to groan over the perversity of her child, and to repent of the prayers she breathed for his life. We may wonder why God does not cut off and destroy at once these demons and dogs in human shape; but he endures their existence to display, in a manner best known to Himself, the glory of His great name.

"The vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Every vessel of wrath must fill up the measure of its iniquity, transgression, and enmity against God, and thus manifest its fitness for destruction, whereby God reveals His justice in the condemnation of all out of the Son of His love, on the ground of their own dispositions and sins. See Col. 3:6: "For which thing's sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." In this marvellous chapter we see revealed the sovereignty of Jehovah as He rules over all things in heaven, and earth, and hell, for His own glory, for the good of His chosen, for the display of the harmony of all His attributes, and for the revelation of the mysteries of His grace in the objects of His eternal love and choice, a people whom He will have near to Himself through a long eternity.

Search the Scriptures, and as you search them you see this appalling subject appearing in every book. Come to Gen. 3:15: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed." There you see two seeds, the loved and the hated, the elect and the reprobate, the redeemed and the unredeemed, the regenerate and the unregenerate, vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, those afore-prepared unto glory and those fitted to destruction, the children of God and the children of the devil. In the first two born into this world we see this exemplified. Cain was a vessel of wrath, Abel was a vessel of mercy. See 1 John 3:12: "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." We see this also in Pharaoh. See Exod. 9:15,16: "For now I will stretch out My hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee My power, and that My name may be declared throughout all the earth." Look at Balaam! The Spirit of the Lord was in his mouth. The devil and the world had full possession of his heart. He "loved the wages of unrighteousness," and at last fell fighting against Israel with the enemies of the Lord, and went to his own place. Look at the false prophets in Israel. "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived the prophet, and I will stretch out My hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel." (Ezek. 14:9) Look at Judas! Awful character! "And truly the Son of Man goeth as it was determined; but woe unto that man by whom He is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22) Turn to Acts 4:27,28: "For of a truth against Thy holy Child Jesus, whom Thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever Thy counsel determined before to be done." Reprobates are appointed to do their own work, and when they have performed it, their wages are always ready for them. "For the wages of sin is death," due to all the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; but "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" to all the vessels of mercy which Jehovah had afore prepared unto glory.

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TMK

You can say it all you want Savannah! More power to you, if it makes you feel better. And mr Bradbury can say it all he wants. He is certainly entitled to his opinion!

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JFW

Savannah,

May I ask wether you believe John Calvin himself to be one of the "elect" according to the doctrine that bears his name?

I kno this may seem silly to you but it is a sincere question-

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savannah

If there are any here who care to bow their knee to God, and afterward post here in keeping with the topic, and let us all know what He hath said in private regarding such, I'd be much obliged to reply.

I refuse to be drawn into the maze of men, along with the ignorant and apathetic sarcasm of some, who after they've posted, spend their time in front of a TV.

The double minded and those not loving God with all their mind are quick to the keyboard, full of words without knowledge of the Holy. Having spent much more
of the time God has given them in fruitless pursuits in deed,word & thought.

If such is not the case with any of the readers of these words then it certainly doesn't apply to you and you need not take offense, nor do you need to make a defense.

Bless the LORD all His saints.

J
JFW

Savannah,

No offense taken:)
I only ask in order to better understand where you are coming from in starting this thread (setting a trap) as you did...
I was hoping to engage you in dialogue and not a debate as I have no heart to debate-
Having said this your response was indeed quite telling-

Blessings to you~

A
andres

here is a great Verse as we all struggle to understand the depths and width of the wisdom of the all wise God..

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:4

love
andy


T
TMK

That's awesome Savannah- if people do not agree with you it is because they are not as holy as you.

I have never heard that said quite so plainly before so I appreciate your honesty.

But I certainly agree with the gist of Fletcher's post- namely that no Calvinist theologian has ever concluded they were not one of the "elect."

Given that per Calvinist theology the vast majority of souls who ever lived are not the elect, it is actually quite surprising that no serious theologian has come to the realization that they have not been chosen.

S
sermonindex

Indeed we should bow before the preeminent sapience and wisdom of some.
Their words display such superiority that to even question them would be deemed sacrilegious

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savannah

JFW,

May I ask wether you believe Samson and Solomon to be of the "elect" according to the scriptures.

J
JFW

Savannah,

Thanks for your question-
Well that's just the thing, there seems to be different understandings as to what/who "elect" means exactly. That was why I attempted to get your understanding by posing the question I did. While there are (apparently) dif understandings, that doesn't mean they are intrinsically incompatable.
Having said that, my current understanding would prolly not be sufficient to answer your question to your satisfaction.

Blessings to you:)

Btw I don't kno wether you are a brother or sister (by your screen name) so I mean no disrespect by not adding that in addressing you-

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sermonindex

Great question about Samson who is named by God the Holy Spirit as one of the great heroes of faith in Hebrews 11.

Samson was a type of Christ in the OT.

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savannah


Julius21,

I do not want to assume that you are saying something that you are not, so please tell us plainly if you believe Samson to be present with the Lord being absent from the body.

Bless the LORD all his saints

S
sermonindex

Thanks Savannah.

I don't know.

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savannah

Julius21,

The great heroes of faith chapter ends with these words;

And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40

What is the application to what goes before, specifically to Samson?

What are these words referencing?

Please tell me if you know!

S
sermonindex

We have this in Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Those who have eternal life are those who obey Him for even the demons believe. The One made perfect, is able to perfect those who turn to Him with all their heart in loving obedience, turning away from Satan, sin and the world.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The "better hope" is Jesus Christ. Only He can do what the law could not do and that is to make us stand "perfect" before His Father.

The Holy Spirit is silent on the final disposition of the OT people and when Jesus led "captivity captive" and preached to the "spirits in prison", we do not know the outcome of who obeyed Him.

The Scriptural record reports that Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9) and "preached to the spirits in prison" (I Pet. 3:19), "even to those who are dead" (I Pet. 4:6), and "His soul was not abandoned to Hades" (Acts 2:27,31). Though we could wish for more details, they are not provided.

Matthew Henry has an interesting take on it, too.

It is observable that the Holy Spirit has not thought fit to say anything here of the faith of our first parents; and yet the church of God has generally, by a pious charity, taken it for granted that God gave them repentance and faith in the promised seed; that he instructed them in the mystery of sacrificing, that they instructed their children in it, and that they found mercy with God, after they had ruined themselves and all their posterity. But God has left the matter still under some doubt, as a warning to all who have great talents given to them, and a great trust reposed in them, that they do not prove unfaithful, since God would not enrol our first parents among the number of believers in this blessed calendar. - Henry.

R
roadsign

Anyone have any suggestions on what I should do?

Check with the wife for accuracy.

R
roadsign

I also know someone who claims to be a christian who told me that they took one of the married women of their church to the abortion clinic and killed the baby.

Not believable.

S
savannah

Julius21 you failed to give Matthew Henry's take on Samson...here it is;

Samson, another instrument that God raised up to deliver Israel from the Philistines: his story we have in Judges 13, 14, 15, and 16, and from it we learn that the grace of faith is the strength of the soul for great service. If Samson had not had a strong faith as well as a strong arm, he had never performed such exploits. Observe, (1.) By faith the servants of God shall overcome even the roaring lion. (2.) True faith is acknowledged and accepted, even when mingled with many failings. (3.) The believer’s faith endures to the end, and, in dying, gives him victory over death and all his deadly enemies; his greatest conquest he gains by dying.

Nothing fills up the sins of any person or people faster than mocking and misusing the servants of God, even thought it is by their own folly that they are brought low. God put it into Samson's heart, as a public person, thus to avenge on them God's quarrel, Israel's, and his own. That strength which he had lost by sin, he recovers by prayer. That it was not from passion or personal revenge, but from holy zeal for the glory of God and Israel, appears from God's accepting and answering the prayer. The house was pulled down, not by the natural strength of Samson, but by the almighty power of God. In his case it was right he should avenge the cause of God and Israel. Nor is he to be accused of self-murder. He sought not his own death, but Israel's deliverance, and the destruction of their enemies. Thus Samson died in bonds, and among the Philistines, as an awful rebuke for his sins; but he died repentant. The effects of his death typified those of the death of Christ, who, of his own will, laid down his life among transgressors, and thus overturned the foundation of Satan's kingdom, and provided for the deliverance of his people. Great as was the sin of Samson, and justly as he deserved the judgments he brought upon himself, he found mercy of the Lord at last; and every penitent shall obtain mercy, who flees for refuge to that Saviour whose blood cleanses from all sin. But here is nothing to encourage any to indulge sin, from a hope they shall at last repent and be saved.

S
sermonindex

Hey there, Savannah. I did not fail to give it, I was just not aware of it. I like it.

S
savannah

a BUMP in the road!

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