Peyton Manning and Christianity

Peyton Manning drinks Budweiser, doesn’t point to God after scoring a touchdown, and never prays to win a football game.

He’s also a Christian (stay with me here).

Manning accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior at the age of thirteen, and since then, his faith has been his number one priority. He grew up in a Bible-believing home, and he tries to be the best man he can be…but there’s an important reason why you don’t really hear much about that side of him.

He would rather his actions outshine his words.

Often times, we squish Christianity into this little box of do’s and don’t‘s, stuffing an infinite God into the puny confines of our own minds. We think we know what following Christ looks like, but in his book Manning that Peyton co-wrote with his dad Archie, Peyton reveals how his Christian walk may not look the same as anyone else’s””but it is no greater, and no lesser.

And this is exactly what he means…

Transcript via Minding the Truth:

"Like my dad, I make it a point when I speak to groups to talk about priorities, and when it’s schoolkids, I rank those priorities as: faith, family, and education, then football. For me generally it had always been the big four: faith, family, friends, and football. And I tell all of them that as important as football is to me, it can never be higher than fourth. My faith has been number one since I was thirteen years old and heard from the pulpit on a Sunday morning in New Orleans a simple question: "If you died today, are you one hundred percent sure you’d go to heaven?” Cooper was there and Eli [Peyton’s two brothers] but it didn’t hit them at the time the way it did me. It was a big church, and I felt very small, but my heart was pounding. The minister invited those who would like that assurance through Jesus Christ to raise their hands, and I did. Then he invited us to come forward, to take a stand, and my heart really started pounding. And from where we sat, it looked like a mile to the front.

But I got up and did it. And I committed my life to Christ, and that faith has been most important to me ever since. Some players get more vocal about it””the Reggie Whites, for example””and some point to Heaven after scoring a touchdown and praise God after games. I have no problem with that. But I don’t do it, and don’t think it makes me any less a Christian. I just want my actions to speak louder, and I don’t want to be more of a target for criticism than I already am. Somebody sees you drinking a beer, which I do, and they think, "Hmmmm, Peyton says he’s this, that, or the other, and there he is drinking alcohol. What’s that all about?”

Christians drink beer. So do non-Christians. Christians also make mistakes, just as non-Christians do. My faith doesn’t make me perfect, it makes me forgiven, and provides me the assurance I looked for half my life ago. I think God answered our prayers with Cooper, and that was a test of our faith. But I also think I’ve been blessed””having so little go wrong in my life, and being given so much. I pray every night, sometimes long prayers about a lot of things and a lot of people, but I don’t talk about it or brag about it because that’s between God and me, and I’m no better than anybody else in God’s sight.

But I consider myself fortunate to be able to go to Him for guidance, and I hope (and pray) I don’t do too many things that displease Him before I get to Heaven myself. I believe, too, that life is much better and freer when you’re committed to God in that way. I find being with others whose faith is the same has made me stronger. J.C. Watts and Steve Largent, for example. They’re both in Congress now. We had voluntary pregame chapel at Tennessee, and I attend chapel every Sunday with players on the team in Indianapolis. I have spoken to church youth groups, and at Christian high schools. And then simply as a Christian, and not as good a one as I’d like to be.

How do I justify football in the context of "love your enemy?” I say to kids, well, football is most definitely a "collision sport,” and I can’t deny it jars your teeth and at the extreme can break your bones. But I’ve never seen it as a "violent game,” there are rules to prevent that, and I know I don’t have to hate anybody on the other side to play as hard as I can within the rules. I think you’d have to get inside my head to appreciate it, but I do love football. And, yes, I’d play it for nothing if that was the only way, even now when I’m no longer a child. I find no contradiction in football and my faith.

Ah, but do I "pray for victory?” No, except as a generic thing. I pray to keep both teams injury free, and personally, that I use whatever talent I have to the best of my ability. But I don’t think God really cares about who wins football games, except as winning might influence the character of some person or group. Besides. If the Colts were playing the Cowboys and I prayed for the Colts and Troy Aikman prayed for the Cowboys, wouldn’t that make it a standoff?

I do feel this way about it. Dad says it can take twenty years to make a reputation, and five minutes to ruin it. I want my reputation to be able to make it through whatever five-minute crises I run into. And I’m a lot more comfortable knowing where my help is.” (Manning, pp. 362-364)

http://www.faithit.com/peyton-manning-shares-the-shocking-reason-why-he-loves-jesus-drinks-beer-wont-pray-to-win-entertainment/#.VryYgqk7ZLA.facebook

Christians drink beer. So do non-Christians. Christians also make mistakes, just as non-Christians do. My faith doesn’t make me perfect, it makes me forgiven, and provides me the assurance I looked for half my life ago.

Many professing Christians today say that they are not perfect but just forgiven. It’s a common cliché. But is that really the life-changing gospel of Jesus Christ? That we are just forgiven? What about the truth of 2 Cor. 5:17, "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation…”? What about the truth that when the Holy Ghost truly comes to a soul He will convict of sin, righteousness and judgment (Jn. 16:8)? When a professing Christian tries to justify his sins by saying he/she is not perfect but just forgiven, I get concerned for their soul. It reveals that they do not have the conviction of the Holy Spirit at work in their hearts and lives.

Hate to say it but sadly, this "Christian testimony” sounds like another sad product of the modern altar call, sinner’s prayer, easy-believism gospel.

Also, many times a false convert does not want to be that vocal about Christ because he/she is ashamed of Him and His words, and because they know that they are not truly seeking to walk as Christ walked. So at some level there is some conviction deep down in their conscience but not the type that accompanies true conversion.

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."-Mark 8:38

I am also reminded of Rev 12:11

11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

At some points Christians have to be vocal about their faith even if it isn't until the day they die.

O-

You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that him drinking a beer is sinning. I am not saying that drinking a beer is never sinning, but I have seen no evidence of him being prone to drunkenness.

T-

Within the context of the US, considering that drinking alcohol is such a huge stumbling block to so many, I would argue that drinking beer is sinning for that simple reason. Manning seems to have absolutely no concern about the issue of stumbling so many as a public figure. It would be comparable to a pastor who chooses to drink beer despite the huge ramifications of stumbling others. A true shepherd would not do that to Christ's flock just to keep his little pleasure. Now, if we were talking about places like Germany it would be different.

This "church” has what they call "Beer & Hymns” in order to attract the lost. It’s part of this newer, progressive, emergent church culture. Imo it's apostasy at its finest on display in this vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSHyG8BReHA

It always cracks me up to read these threads! Same song ... next verse. :-)

Me thinks some folks may not have a full knowledge of the history of alcohol in the church. Just as a few examples ....

Martin Luther - As you may, or may not, be aware Luther loved to partake of alcohol. In his own words he preferred a good wine and malt liquors over beers but had a definite fondness for them both. Another poster stated earlier that

This "church” has what they call "Beer & Hymns” in order to attract the lost. It’s part of this newer, progressive, emergent church culture. Imo it's apostasy at its finest on display:

Melangthon - The great "mind" and theologian of the Reformation had wine nightly.

John Calvin - He enjoyed wine a great deal. In fact part of his ministerial salary in service to Geneva was paid out in barrels of wine. This was to the tune of 250 gallons per year! He of course also entertained guests with this amount .... but still!

The Pilgrims - The night before setting sail upon the Mayflower and heading to Plymouth Rock in America they had a send off dinner. Including, in their own words, "pudding and wine". Among the supplies they brought for their American journey they had casks of beer and pipes of gin and brandy. The Puritan Pilgrims aboard the Arabella brought to America with them 42 tuns of beer and 10,000 gallons of wine. A tun of beer is a wooden barrel used to measure. It is equal to 252 gallons. Do the math with the beer the Pilgrims brought that day! They also brought 7,560 gallons of malt to set up alcohol brewing services as soon as they reached the new land! This was just the public supply. Each family also normally brought their own personal backup barrels. The historic record also purports them to have distilled wine to brandy on the journey from England.

The Apostle Paul At Corinth - Granted that Paul instructed the Corinthians to quit coming to The Lords Supper and engaging in bouts of gluttony and drunkenness. He did indeed advise them not to cause those who are weak and immature in conscience to "stumble". However, this other ditty seems to be missed by most. Consider this ..... - Paul never in any way advised them to stop drinking wine! He told them to do it at home if they were going to drink these larger quantities. Let that sink in. Paul never told them to quit drinking alcohol! This was the time to do it if he was going to. He simply told them to be wise in the use of it. True, he said weaker consciences among the immature would mean never drinking in their presence. He did however allow them to continue in the use of alcohol in the Lords Supper there. However, Paul himself indicates that he is more than happy to drink wine if those with immature and weaker consciences are not around. When in their presence I will try to not cause them to stumble ... if they are not around then I am not bound by their immature and weak conscience.

I could continue ... but the story is the same throughout.

The thing that amazes me is that there are SO INCREDIBLY MANY professing believers that are still living under a very weak and immature baby conscience. It is AMAZING to me how many people are never allowed to enjoy their God given liberties so that the immature, weak, and babyish are not offended. How in the world is it that we have so many immature baby believers that would stumble at this?!?!!? When do they ever plan to grow up?!?!?! Many of them have been, "immature baby christians with a weak conscience" for decades!!
Perhaps they do not realize they are spiritual babies and immature.

Psalm 104 puts it succinctly -

14 HE (GOD) MAKES grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to cultivate””
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 WINE THAT GLADDENS HUMAN HEARTS,
oil to make their faces shine,
and bread that sustains their hearts.
(CAPS mine for emphasis)

Pretty clear where wine comes from. One of the things God brings forth from the earth is wine to gladden human hearts! One translation says, "He gave wine to make glad the hearts of men".

The more mature of the faith continue to not enjoy the freedom Christ has given them to protect the baby immature weak conscienced believers. The problem with that is a great many are not actually immature believers .... they are simply religious Pharisees that have seized upon this as the topic to try and establish their works superiority upon.

As a Bama fan, I never liked a Manning.

As a football fan, I never disliked one.

As a Christian, I pray for Peyton M. that he will know God richly, deeply and firmly rooted in Christ. My opinions of his sin notwithstanding. And I have opinions.

Solomon101,

While I've never been a big drinker of alcohol, (but I do enjoy a drink from time to time) I do tend to agree with the general thrust of your response. It's a sad thing to see Saints yoking one another with cultural criticisms. Also its well known our dear brother Spurgeon liked to smoke... allot!
Wouldn't it be interesting to have him a present day participant here on SI and get attacked for his cigars... Now that would be a rich discussion ha!

Brother Tim, RTR!

Peyton Manning is not a Christian. He is a Mormon. That is an unbiblical heretical cult. That makes the whole discussion "off".

Towards Spurgeon, he eventually quit smoking cigars because the Holy Spirit convicted him of causing others to stumble.

Again, in certain countries drinking and smoking may be the norm even for Christians as long as they don't get drunk or high. But here it's obviously different and that's why Christians cannot smoke and drink and be involved in ministry in many solid Christian circles, and with good reason.

There is a big push these days within much of Christendom to stifle and eliminate conviction of sin and to compromise and lower the standard. But we mustn't fall for the traps of the enemy to our own peril. We must take a firm stand and not compromise or stifle the convictions of the Holy Spirit.

Where in the world did you get the idea that he's a Mormon?

I will need some proof and not gossip about that.

Also, I wouldn't use Luther as a good example of godly character. Good doctrine, yes, godly character, no.

Towards Calvin, he too was a fallible man.

Our standard must be Christ and His Word. But I can hear the objection, "Didn't Jesus turn the water into wine at the wedding in John 2?" Yes, but a careful study shows that in those days wine was not nearly as fermented or strong as is the case today with beer and wine. In those days it was recommended that people drink wine instead of water due to the amount of contamination in their water.

Warning. Off topic.

I shared this on a forum I have been part of since 2004. This was posted by me in 2011 after my "conversion" to teetotalism. It explains for me why.

"First, let me agree with you 100%, TW. I don't like it at all. As you all may or may not know, the convenience store business my family is in has, since September, 2010, sold beer and wine. I hate it. I despise it. I'm not alone in it, and my say-so is the least of "say-sos" and the minority say-so. In fact, every one of us involved in the business voted against legalizing sales in our town, but it passed and we determined as a matter of business necessity that we had no choice but to sell them. We are now the #6 retailer of beer in north Alabama in less than 1 year. We sell more than Wal-Mart. And, do you know who is most responsible for the operational side of that in the family business?

You guessed it.

I see it, handle it, smell it, sell it, tape 'em up, put 'em up, stack 'em, stock 'em, and pretty much handle the inventory control of all the beer and wine coolers that come into the store. And, let me reiterate that it is a bunch.

There was a time when I would carry the argument here about the lack of a Biblical abstinence-only view of alcohol consumption. I'm not carrying that argument anymore because I'm so completely and utterly sick of booze. I detest it. Not only do I absolutely not so much as taste it now and then, I am done...with....it. That has been a blessing, Here's why.

I've always thought it was a poor excuse for argument that we could look to the abuses of alcohol and the fallout of alcoholism as a point in favor of an abstinence only view of alcohol, biblically speaking. I'm still of that mind -- that we can't rely on THAT truth to constitute a biblical truth that simply is not expressed in the bible. HOWEVER, there are many particular forms of evil that have no exact example in the Bible. For instance, there is no instance of an HIV positive man raping a six month old child as I read about this weekend, but the bible thoroughly and pointedly makes that an abomination (adultery, harming a child, hatred-as-murder, perversion, etc.).

Here's why I bring that instance up: I have learned in the last 9 months that more people drink way more than I ever knew. I'm 44 years old now. My hair is graying fast, lines are taking over my forehead and eyes. I grew up in an alcohol-ridden home. I should have known better but didn't. I had sequestered myself much more than I ever knew, as an adult, away from the booze culture. My dalliances in it were too brief to open my eyes to what is actually happening. Now, they're wide open. Alcohol is, just like the illegal drugs that infect our society, a beast and a monster that devours people and spits them out. They are enamored with the thing that destroys them. As I read the Bible, and as I view now through lenses of experience that I've never had, I can say without equivocation that alcohol -- like all other substances people use illicitly, whether legal or not -- is an idol of the people. For that, the Bible is crystal clear that there shall be NO other gods before Him. If that is not an abstinence position, I do not know what is.

If a Christian can manage to drink alcohol without the slightest encroachment of idolatry into the heart while committing or defending the act, then praise God for the grace of God that fills that person's heart. I haven't seen that, and I cannot do it myself, even with no more of it than I would allow myself to consume. As I reflect on it, giving myself the greatest benefit of the doubt in the matter in the past, the most generous view of my actions would amount (in my view) to failing to abstain from drinking blood or from meats sacrificed to idols in a culture where failing to abstain would harm the witness of Christ and reduce Him in the eyes of the lost or of the weaker believer to an object no different from an idol.

So, with all that in mind, and agreeing with you, TW 100% (and, by the way, great to hear from you again!!), I am just laying it out there that I have a changed heart and mind and renewed and improved understanding of the Scriptures on this issue."

Paul never in any way advised them to stop drinking wine! He told them to do it at home if they were going to drink these larger quantities. Let that sink in. Paul never told them to quit drinking alcohol!

Luther? Good doctrine???????????????????????

Luther's venomous doctrinal position towards the Jewish people was used by Hitler to great advantage. More wicked religious doctrine than his would be difficult to imagine.

I was not referring to that aspect. I was referring to the good aspects, such as rejecting and opposing Romanism and declaring salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and standing on Scripture alone instead of the traditions of Rome.

His being anti-Semitic is part of what I was referring to as "ungodly character".

Brother Oracio,

I'm copy/pasting this from Spurgeon.org

Note: Because we get so many requests for information about Mr. Spurgeon's use of cigars, we provide the following vignettes from some early Spurgeon biographies. It is important to note that Mr. Spurgeon's love for cigars was not an addiction, and he deliberately kept it from becoming an addiction, as is clearly shown in the anecdotes related by William Williams (below).
Furthermore, we fully agree with Mr. Spurgeon that smoking cigars per se is not a sinful activity. Cigars, unlike cigarettes, are properly smoked without inhaling, minimizing the risk of lung damage. Nor does cigar smoking normally involve the kind of addictive behavior associated with cigarette use. By all accounts, Mr. Spurgeon's smoking was occasional, and never much more than a cigar a day or so””which, again, suggests that this was no addiction with him.
There are no doubt health risks associated with cigars, but this is also true of cream cheese, or coffee, or almost anything when consumed without moderation. There is no real evidence that cigars in any way hastened Mr. Spurgeon's death.
Mr. Spurgeon's smoking was a historical fact, and the cause of truth cannot be served by denying it or inventing myths that suggest he finally "repented" of this activity. The fact is that he did not regard smoking cigars as a sinful activity, and he evidently held that opinion until the end of his life.

Cmon guys-

Scripture can't be read to demand teetotalism. Wine drinking was a way of life.

The wine at Cana was intoxicating. It states specifically that hosts let their guests drink the good stuff first until they get tipsy (implied) then bring out the cheap stuff. But the host marveled because they saved the best wine (that Jesus made) until last. Jesus didn't make grape juice and there is no indication it was anything other than wine.

I am not sure where we get the idea that it's ok for a Christian to drink beer in Europe and not the US. Beer has been here since the pilgrims, as Solomon noted.

Why in the world having a beer would be considered idolatry, I have no idea.

ORACIO STATED,

So let me get this straight. According to that logic, it was okay with Paul if the Corinthians drank "larger quantities” of wine at home and get drunk?

I don't think I could personally go that far because of other scriptures such as the one you referenced. However, if one actually just lets the scripture speak for itself on this point it is quiet interesting.

20 When you meet together, you are not really interested in the Lord’s Supper. 21 For some of you hurry to eat your own meal without sharing with others. As a result, some go hungry while others get drunk. 22 What? Don’t you have your own homes for eating and drinking? Or do you really want to disgrace God’s church and shame the poor? What am I supposed to say? Do you want me to praise you? Well, I certainly will not praise you for this! 1 Cor 11:20-22.

Notice that Paul didn't tell them NOT to drink wine. He said that the ways in which they were drinking should be done at home. He then almost unbelievably states that they were drunk at the Lords Supper ... and that coupled with the ravenous eating disgraced the church and shamed the poor .... so those things that could possibly disgrace the church or shame the poor should be done at home and not at those gatherings!

Another interesting fact of scripture on this topic is that of overeating. It is mentioned here in the same judgement as drunkenness! Proverbs makes it crystal clear that drunkenness and overeating are seen as pretty much the same thing. A lot of folks that freak out over someone drinking a beer or glass of wine are the first ones to empty out a buffet line and are several pounds overweight. The epitome of hypocrisy is to see some overweight person passing judgement on a person using alcohol in a Biblically sound and responsible way.

"After winning his second Super Bowl title on Sunday evening, star quarterback Peyton Manning said he planned to drink "a lot of Budweiser," adding that he was grateful and planned to thank "the man upstairs" following the big game against the Carolina Panthers."

"I'm going to drink a lot of Budweiser tonight, Tracy, I promise you that," the Denver Broncos quarterback continued, adding, "I'm going to take care of those things first and definitely going to say a little prayer and thank the man upstairs for this great opportunity."

Brothers, Given the topic at hand I can think of better things to contend for and defend than whether one can drink or not.

The statements above, IF THEY ARE TRUE, do not edify or build others up in the faith.

Jude 1:3-5 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (5) I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

As for Peyton God knows his heart and he will stand before Him one day and give an account. Promoting drinking a lot of beer and referring to the man up stairs are a very poor choice of words in my opinion.

I love football (more so College than Pro)and I love when young men stand up for Jesus Christ and go on to live a life in the limelight that continues to emulate and reflect their faith in Him.

I personally do not bear witness with how Peyton used his moment to speak into the hearts of so many. Referring to Jesus as the man upstairs makes one wonder, is he ashamed to mention the Name of Jesus? Or is he trying to apease those who may refer to God by another name? I do not know.

As for the little ones and the weak in the faith, Jesus gave a pretty sound and stern warning:

Matthew 18:6-7 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (7) Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

The bible tells us that we are to prefer others above ourselves. If this topic causes others to offend or stumble why would we want to contend/defend it?

As I have said before I am not one much for debating and I believe there to be a difference between debating and contending. One is rooted in pride and the other is rooted in love.

This thread has the potential to be one of those that ends up with a lot of comments and thousands of views which would be disheartening in my opinion.

Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/peyton-manning-super-bowl-plans-drink-budweiser-praise-god-157092/#PH0ISGsEsgy5BF4v.99

http://www.christianpost.com/news/peyton-manning-super-bowl-plans-drink-budweiser-praise-god-157092/

It's amazing that Jesus' first miracle of turning water into wine still offends the sensibilities of many.

God said, "Don't be drunk". Let's not change that to "don't drink". That's Islam, not Christianity.

I certainly agree that it was unwise for Manning to make those comments.

Even if he was being honest he should have kept it to himself.

I am curious as to how many Buds he actually drank, or if his statement was rather a sports hero way of saying "I'm gonna celebrate."

I think we should give other brothers the benefit of the doubt. From what I have read he is s true brother. Is he Tozer? Nope, but who is. I hope brothers and sisters would give me the benefit of the doubt.

I love this from Oswald Chambers:
"Beware of Criticizing Others:

Jesus' instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says "Don't."....

Criticism serves to make you harsh, vindictive, and cruel, and leaves you with the soothing and flattering idea that you are somehow superior to others. Stop having a measuring stick for other people. There is always at least one more fact, which we know nothing about, in every person’s situation.” ~Oswald Chambers

Saints,

The admonition posted by brother Todd (TMK) is timely and wise.

Before this gets to be a circus act let us give pause and consider if ANY of our lives were covered with the same consistency of PM's by the national media I'm sure we'd all have something that would be able to be viewed with skepticism. Having said that, it's easy to stand off and throw rocks at someone whom we don't really know. Further, if we are as salty as we like to imagine ourselves to be, wouldn't our time be better spent praying/interceding for this man? I mean scripture says "as Jesus is so should we be here on earth".... So do we honestly think Jesus is throwing rocks at PM or interceding for him?

"Remove the log from your own eye....

Jeff-

If you read the OP carefully most of it is quoting Manning. I think that qualifies as a testimony.

I think we can agree that his comments you quoted were unwise. I wonder if I would ever say anything unwise if I was interviewed or in the media spotlight every day of my life from college on? Lord have mercy.

Brothers and Sisters,

God has set us free, and we must "standfast in the liberty that Christ has made us free and not be entangled again in the yoke of bondage." (Galatians 5:1).

The question is not if we can drink or not, but does our drinking bring glory to God? Does our drinking cause our brother to stumble? Does our drinking cause us to stumble?

I live in Southwest La. where people like to have a good time, and the saying is "let the good times roll." So there is a lot of drinking on holidays such as the Mardi Gras season, Contraband Days, and on most weekends.

This is the world, and if we are participating in these activities in the presence of unbelievers, then there is no difference between us and them.

There should be a clear difference between Christians and unbelievers. We are called by God to be separate from this world, which includes the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

I used to like wine and bear and I drank a lot of it, but the Holy Spirit has dealt with me on more than one occasion about drinking, so for me drinking would be a sin. I cannot stay in fellowship with God and drink nor can I bring glory to God, so I choose to be obedient to the Lord out of His love which constrains me to do His will.

I like Peyton Manning, and I was hoping that Denver would win the Super Bowl, and that he would retire from pro football on a high note. I am not going to judge whether Peyton Manning is a Christian or not but he certainly is not bringing glory to God by the comments that he made after the Super Bowl. He is in a tremendous position to give glory to God because he is being watched by millions of people. Does drinking Budweiser and thanking the Man upstairs really bringing glory to God?

I did not watch the Super Bowl halftime show, but it certainly did not bring glory to God.

I praise God for the NFL players that are Christians and are not afraid to lift up the name of Jesus Christ, and that even join hands and pray together. These are the ones that are bringing glory to God.

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.…(Romans 14:20-22).

"If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks? Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God";…(1 Corinthians 10:30-32).

To my knowledge Lewis was not a universalist. He believed in hell and that people would go there.

Brother Neil,

Ha! You would make a great salesman;) you had me going, so much so I was like, Wow, what is that? And had to look it up! Lol!!!

But yes I def agree with your observations-

I wasn't sure what raw opium paste was, either. I live a sheltered life. 😇

Seems like we may have quite a few sipping saints here eh.

This thought came to mind. Is it any wonder that there are so many different denominations? It only makes common sense if we cannot fellowship and co-labor while having these types of serious disagreements, right?

A few years ago I was attending a church where I found out one of the pastors was drinking beers at baseball games with one of the members. This was a church located in the ghetto of Long Beach, CA, where there is much alcohol and drug addiction. I ended up leaving the church after confronting him and lost respect for him. That's just how I see it, sorry. There is too much apostasy going on these days in many churches and this drinking beer stuff is just one of many symptoms of a deeper problem.

T-

You asked where I get the idea of drinking beer and wine possibly being okay in Europe. I believe this passage would apply:

"But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.”-1 Cor. 8:9-13

From what I've heard, in certain places in Europe beer and wine is so common place that they even put it in many of their foods. And it seems that people there are used to seeing even Christians partaking, and there is no stumbling on account of it. If that truly is the situation there then it may not be wrong for Christians to partake as long as they don’t get drunk. However, caution is still needed because for some even just a small amount can make them start feeling "different” due to the high levels of alcohol contained in each can of beer or glass of wine.

Again, I would argue that in the first century it is likely that it took much more to get drunk than it takes today especially with beer; because if it was as easy to get drunk as it is today, there would be a clear command not to drink at all lest they risk getting drunk.

I want to highlight this portion of the passage in my last post:

"But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.”-1 Cor. 8:12-13

Colossians 2:16-23

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations ”” "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” which all concern things which perish with the using ”” according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

In all seriousness, I find legalism to be a greater stumbling block than any form of addiction.

Towards Colossians 2:16-23, the context shows that Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law with all of its ceremonies and rituals and observances of abstaining from certain types of meats and drinks, and the addition of the worship of angels. It has nothing to do with the risk of getting drunk or stumbling others in that way.

Towards legalism, legalism is adding to the commandments of God. I do not see how the scriptures I shared in context are adding to the Word of God.

We can throw scriptures back and forth to support our position, and sometimes it may seem like there is a contradiction in the Word because some scriptures seem to say one thing and other scriptures seem to say the opposite. But we know that the Word of God does not contradict itself. We must seek to be like the Bereans and test everything in light of the whole counsel of God.

Yeah when I posted the OP I did so because I thought it was encouraging that a big name like manning was not ashamed to be identified as Christian. I didn't mean it to become a discussion on how good or bad of a Christian he is or whether he is a Christian at all.

Let's face it - he does live in a world of fame and money and sports where it would be hard to be a Christian. It is not wrong or sinning for him to be a great QB. He was raised in it with his dad before him and his brothers alongside him. I personally believe he has risen above many of the snares and traps that bring so many in his shoes down.

We can pray that his witness will strengthen and that he can influence others around him.

If I had all power in this universe and used it to turn water into wine, I wonder what kind of criticism I'd be greeted with! (e.g. potentially stumbling others, alcohol having dubious utility, parties are not pious events, I should focus on saving souls and helping the poor instead)

Well, Jesus did just that.

This thread (not the OP), is a perfect example of how "Americanism" has infiltrated the beautiful and wonderful Church of Jesus Christ.

By Americanism I mean, your belief that what YOU believe is absolute and everyone else is wrong; that your version of Christianity is the perfect version.

You know, there are Christian's in England who meet at pubs (neighborhood meeting spots for parents, kids & dogs) and they don't think a thing about having a "pint." There are other Christians round-the-world that drink wine and it doesn't enter their mind that they are "sinning."

God bless us all and allow the Holy Spirit deal with people!!

Wow it's pretty crazy some of the comments on here. I'm thinking that none of you have met this guy let along know him personally. To declare him not Christian is to me almost like a Pharisee. Can I just encourage us to not be so quick to judge. Especially on an issue like the consumption of alcohol. I do not drink alcohol but I don't condemn those who do. If I'm not mistaken Jesus was called a drunkard?? But all of that to say that you can not determine if Peyton is Christian or non Christian. Thank you for the OP. I love articles that are a mixture of sports and faith. Much love

I came across this today and thought it was worthwhile from an informational perspective about Payton Manning. I think some people discerned some underlying issues in his life that others seem to have dismissed.

The video is produced by Cracked, liberal leaning humor and satire magazine/website.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KYO-afZw4JI

Ancient history Jeremy.

"Jesus’ instructions with regard to judging others is very simply put; He says, "Don’t.” The average Christian is the most piercingly critical individual known. Criticism is one of the ordinary activities of people, but in the spiritual realm nothing is accomplished by it... The Holy Spirit is the only one in the proper position to criticize, and He alone is able to show what is wrong without hurting and wounding. It is impossible to enter into fellowship with God when you are in a critical mood... There is no escaping the penetrating search of my life by Jesus. If I see the little speck in your eye, it means that I have a plank of timber in my own (see Matthew 7:3-5). Every wrong thing that I see in you, God finds in me. Every time I judge, I condemn myself (see Romans 2:17-24).

If we are not heedful and pay no attention to the way the Spirit of God works in us, we will become spiritual hypocrites. We see where other people are failing, and then we take our discernment and turn it into comments of ridicule and criticism, instead of turning it into intercession on their behalf. God reveals this truth about others to us not through the sharpness of our minds but through the direct penetration of His Spirit. If we are not attentive, we will be completely unaware of the source of the discernment God has given us, becoming critical of others and forgetting that God says, "…he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death.” Be careful that you don’t become a hypocrite by spending all your time trying to get others right with God before you worship Him yourself.

One of the most subtle and illusive burdens God ever places on us as saints is this burden of discernment concerning others. He gives us discernment so that we may accept the responsibility for those souls before Him and form the mind of Christ about them (see Philippians 2:5). We should intercede in accordance with what God says He will give us, namely, "life for those who commit sin not leading to death.” It is not that we are able to bring God into contact with our minds, but that we awaken ourselves to the point where God is able to convey His mind to us regarding the people for whom we intercede.

Can Jesus Christ see the agony of His soul in us? He can’t unless we are so closely identified with Him that we have His view concerning the people for whom we pray. May we learn to intercede so wholeheartedly that Jesus Christ will be completely and overwhelmingly satisfied with us as intercessors." ~~Oswald Chambers

To summarize, if you discern a weakness in others, don't criticize or judge-- intercede for them!!! That is how God tells us to intercede. I am not sure about y'all but the above statements by Chambers taught me something today.

If Peyton Manning were to come across this thread and read the comments, what would he feel?

Well, we can have some idea by conducting a thought experiment. Try substituting your name (or the name of your child) in place of his name.

Would you be encouraged to draw near towards God? Or would you be turned off from Christian community?

There's been concern about stumbling others through our actions. Could some of these comments here potentially be a stumbling block to Manning himself?

Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

How about instead of criticizing publicly when we discern sin or weakness in a brother, we pray for him instead? We pray that the Holy Spirit will address it with that person. Like Chambers says, only the HS can do this without hurting and wounding.

Do we have so little faith in our prayers that we jump to our human tendency to judge and criticize first?

Let's face it- the primary reason we criticize and judge is not for that persons sake or for others sake. It's so we can feel better about ourselves.

That is why Jesus says "Don't."

By John Caldwell (Retired Pastor)

I decided many years ago totally to abstain from alcohol, and it is my opinion that all Christians would do well to make the same decision. I believe this issue is important because it relates to a broader, and thus even more significant subject””that of the modern church’s ongoing move toward becoming more and more like the world.

My Bias

In the interest of full disclosure, I am biased. I hate alcohol””not the taste (although to be honest, I hate that too), but what it does to people. The first funeral of a teenager that I conducted was of a young man killed by a drunk driver. I’ve had literally hundreds of counseling sessions with couples and spouses as their marriages teetered on the brink because of alcohol. I can’t count the hours I’ve spent in jails and prisons visiting inmates whose lives have been forever negatively impacted because of crimes they committed while under the influence. Even more hours have been spent in emergency rooms, trauma units, and at hospital bedsides, while ministering to victims of alcohol.

The horror stories I could tell could fill a book: the teenage girl losing her virginity while drinking, the college student brain damaged after a fraternity initiation, the young minister involved in a terrible wreck after having just a couple of beers to relax, and scores of others.

Let me be blunt! I see absolutely no positive argument for something that will make you act like an idiot, smell like a brewery, fight like a fool, impair your motor functions, drain your bank account, give you a hangover, scare your kids, alienate your spouse, make you a danger to your fellow man, and has the potential to enslave you.

I wish I could tell you that all I know about this is from the vantage point of a pastor. Regrettably, I must admit that during my prodigal days drinking was very much a part of my social life, and for the same reason most people start drinking””peer pressure. I wanted to fit in.

I can also tell you the time I decided to quit. It was early one morning when I woke up in the middle of a street in front of a frat house across from the Southwest Missouri State University campus. I decided right there and then that drinking could get you killed. I was right.

The Bible’s Counsel

Before we go any further let me state the obvious. I know that Jesus miraculously created wine as his first public miracle in Cana, and that a person could have consumed enough to get drunk. Yes, Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for medicinal purposes. It is true that the Bible nowhere forbids the drinking of alcohol, only its abuse to the point of drunkenness. Paul said, "Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life” (Ephesians 5:18*). It is also true that many people, including many Christians, drink only in moderation; a glass of wine with their dinner or a cold beer on a hot day. And I’m not suggesting that such will make you descend into the gutter.

But let’s consider the whole counsel of God concerning the use of alcohol. Proverbs 23:29, 30 says: "Who has anguish? Who has sorrow? Who is always fighting? Who is always complaining? Who has unnecessary bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes? It is the one who spends long hours in the taverns, trying out new drinks.”

There are six consequences listed in verse 29, all in the form of a rhetorical question, the first of which is, "Who has anguish?” The Hebrew word for anguish is an expression of despair and impending doom. It is no coincidence that 40 percent of suicide attempts are alcohol related. The wise man goes on to ask the source of sorrow, fighting, complaints, unnecessary bruises, bloodshot eyes; and makes it clear that the source is overindulgence of alcohol.

Most people in the ancient world drank alcohol. The Egyptians and Babylonians were manufacturing beer 3,000 years before Christ. But here’s something you need to know. Alcohol use changed radically in AD 700 when Arab chemists discovered how to distill alcohol, which led to the ability to produce highly potent concentrations. Thus the wine and beer produced previous to that was, for the most part, very low in alcoholic content. You could get drunk, but you had to drink a lot to do so.

However, today, if you buy a bottle of whiskey, liquor, or even wine, the natural fermentation is bolstered by the addition of distilled alcohol. New wine in biblical days had very little alcoholic content, and even aged wine had a low amount compared to today’s standards. Don’t take my word for it. You can easily research it using the Internet.

So-called "adult beverages” are very much a part of American social life. However, the advertising industry doesn’t sell intoxication, but fantasy; it doesn’t sell reality, but fiction. Ads for alcoholic beverages tout happiness, wealth, prestige, sophistication, success, maturity, athletic ability, virility, creativity, and sexual satisfaction””but these are the very things alcohol abuse destroys. Proverbs 23:31, 32 says, "Don’t gaze at the wine, seeing how red it is, how it sparkles in the cup, how smoothly it goes down. For in the end it bites like a poisonous snake; it stings like a viper.”

I haven’t even mentioned that millions of Americans are in bondage to alcohol because of their addiction to it. But listen to the closing verses of Proverbs 23: "You will see hallucinations, and you will say crazy things. You will stagger like a sailor tossed at sea, clinging to a swaying mast. And you will say, ‘They hit me, but I didn’t feel it. I didn’t even know it when they beat me up. When will I wake up so I can look for another drink?’” (vv. 33-35).

A Simple Question, A Larger Concern

Let me ask a simple question: Why should you drink? If you never take the first drink, you’ll never become addicted. If you don’t drink, even if you could handle it, you won’t be a stumbling block to those who can’t handle it (and I believe Paul said something about not causing your brother to stumble). And if you don’t drink, you won’t be supporting an industry that has caused untold heartache for millions of people.

Try a little experiment. Carefully read a city newspaper for the next seven days. Make note of all the stories of tragedy and heartache that somehow involve alcohol. Then, against that backdrop, try to defend its use. A quote often attributed to Abraham Lincoln is, "Alcohol has many defenders, but no defense.”

At the beginning of this article I suggested that this topic is representative of the broader subject of the church becoming more and more conformed to the world. I have a number of preacher friends who are social drinkers. I know of several churches that have changed their policy manuals to allow for social drinking. I’ve even heard it defended as a tool for evangelism (I wish I had the space to deal with that one).

But let’s be honest. Is it not simply an attempt to fit in with the world? What happened to "Don’t become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking . . . ”? (Romans 12:2, The Message).

America’s No. 1 problem drug is not an illegal drug like cocaine, marijuana, meth, or heroine, as big a problem as they are. The No. 1 problem drug is a lethal one””alcohol. It causes more deaths and more addiction than any other drug. More than 55 percent of highway deaths are alcohol related. There are more than 17 million alcoholics in America, and that number is rising. And it is impossible to quantify the death, disability, psychosis, and relational harm done by alcohol.

No, the Bible doesn’t say, "Thou shalt not drink,” and you may be able to handle it. But what about your children who are introduced to the use of alcohol by your example and who are not able to handle it? I can point to many parents who would give anything to be able to go back and become abstainers if only for the sake of their kids.

Taking all this into consideration, isn’t it best to remember the words of Paul? "You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’””but not everything is good for you. You say, ‘I am allowed to do anything’””but not everything is beneficial. Don’t be concerned for your own good but for the good of others” (1 Corinthians 10:23, 24).

The bottom line is this: the question really isn’t CAN A CHRISTIAN DRINK? Rather, it is: SHOULD A CHRISTIAN DRINK?

I am amazed at how easily the very words of our Lord are dismissed out of hand.

Jesus said "Don't judge." He didn't lay out 100s of exceptions- He just said "Don't." In fact, He said if you judge then YOU will be judged. He did not lay out 100s of exceptions as to why you might not be judged if you judge. He just said you will be judged.

Why?

In John 7:24, in context, Jesus is telling the Pharisees not to be nit-pickers.

Amen jeffmar1130. The twisting of that "Judge not" verse is so prevalent these in days in the emergent, apostate church culture. They cannot endure the calling of a spade a spade or any kind of distinguishing between true and false conversion or true and false doctrine. Yet God's Word is crystal clear that there are true and false Christians and that we must be careful not to knowingly fellowship with false professing Christians as you pointed out from 1 Cor. 5 and other scriptures.

The emergent, apostate church culture says in essence, "holiness does not really matter when it comes to salvation. You can be saved and indulge in sin because after all, no one is perfect but God. So don't be too hard on yourself or judge yourself or others, relax. We are all children of God in the end regardless of our behavior or beliefs."

Isn't that just like the enemy? As soon as the standard of the Word of God is lifted up they pull the legalism card on you. Jesus said that the world hated him because He testified of it that its deeds are evil (John 7:7). Like Leonard Ravenhill once said, "If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.” Jesus preached against sin and called people to repent and that’s why they ended up crucifying him. He said that a servant is not greater than his Master and that if they hated Him they would hate us too if we follow in His footsteps. It’s part of the package deal for those that desire to truly follow Christ.

Forgot to mention that the attitude of, "Only God can judge me" is more in keeping with the late gangster rapper Tupac Shakur than with the Word of God.

Question;
What are your thoughts/insights/interpretations on the following exhortation by Paul to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:
"22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

While I'm not drawing a comparable situation with PM's comment, I would like to hear from those who are posting in this thread on both sides- thanks in advance:)

What good does it do to criticize Peyton Manning in this forum? Do you really think he will read this forum? (For all that it good and true in the world I hope not). No one here is holding him up as the greatest Christian who ever lived. It certainly isn't helping me. As Awakened (mark) said(paraphrasing), all it does is make us look like a bunch of sanctimonious jerks.

I think for the most part Chamber's point about criticism is being missed. His point is that criticism only serves to harm the spirit of the person doing the criticizing, and does nothing whatsoever to help or even hurt the person being criticized. How is criticizing Manning here for what he said post Super Bowl helping him, or us? And if we are brave enough to criticize someone in person (which is really the only scriptural way) instead of behind their back, the chances of us doing it in a Godly way full of the HS is exceedingly slim. How about we pray that the HS will do the convicting and criticizing instead? For that matter, how do we know that the HS has not already convicted him about what he said?

Jesus said "judge not" because He knew that judging and criticizing damages your own spirit. And that far outweighs any potential good we might imagine our judging will do. The far greater probability is that the judging will do great harm because we are sinful men.

T-

I have heard of many testimonies of people being awakened and soundly converted through some of Paul Washers messages in which he plainly calls out specific sins and warns professing Christians to examine themselves to see if they are truly in the faith.

It is the preaching of true repentance and genuine faith in Christ that God uses to awaken and save sinners.

So if Peyton Manning were to ever read this thread, my hope and prayer is that he would be thus awakened and soundly saved through the conviction of the Holy Spirit regarding his false profession of faith. Jesus said that by their fruit you will know them. I know that I am not eloquent and that my speech is not flowery, but I am convinced that the Holy Spirit does not need eloquence or flowery speech but rather simple and plain speech in order to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment.

Judging is like unforgiveness, you keep wasting all your energy proving you have a right to judge, while the person you won't forgive or ARE JUDGING keeps right living NOT wasting one bit of energy worrying about your judging (or unforgiveness)!!!

Colossians 3:
1 So if you have been raised with the Messiah, seek what is above, where the Messiah is, seated at the right hand of God.
2 Set your minds on what is above, not on what is on the earth.
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God.
4 When the Messiah, who is your[fn] life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5 Therefore, put to death what belongs to your worldly nature:[fn] sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire, and greed, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these, God’s wrath comes on the disobedient,[fn]
7 and you once walked in these things when you were living in them.
8 But now you must also put away all the following: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old self[fn] with its practices
10 and have put on the new self. You are being renewed in knowledge according to the image of your[fn] Creator.
11 In Christ[fn] there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian,[fn] slave and free; but Christ is all and in all.
12 Therefore, God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, put on heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
13 accepting one another and forgiving one another if anyone has a complaint against another. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, so you must also forgive.
14 Above all, put on love”‰”””‰the perfect bond of unity.