David Ravenhill: Donald Trump Is a Deceiver

Saints, we rarely if ever post a political posting on the website, but we respect David Ravenhill who is a godly man who does not get into politics like his father Leonard but has a prophetic voice and will speak out to the body of Christ.

below is what brother David Ravenhill wrote today:

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Sticking a thermometer under a person's tongue will soon reveal whether or not they are running a fever. This is certainly the case with a large segment of evangelical believers. The political thermometer has clearly shown that many are suffering from a serious case of "Trump fever."

How the body of Christ caught this deadly fever can only be attributed to the fact that it has an incredibly weak immune system that makes it susceptible to this type of deception.

I, like many of my friends, am not only stunned but worried that such a con artist could be taken so seriously. The closest parallel to this type of paranoia was when God's people were given the chance to decide between Jesus and Barabbas. Tragically they chose the con artist! What is even more frightening is that when the day comes to choose between Christ and the Antichrist, many will wholeheartedly choose the Antichrist. Did you know that according to Webster's 1828 edition dictionary, one of the definitions for trump means 'to deceive'?

Let's face it. Trump is no evangelical. He proudly acknowledged that he had no need of God's forgiveness. Yet Trump has traded his trophy wives like a boy trading baseball cards. His foul mouth would make a seasoned sailor blush with shame, while his pride makes the devil proud to call him his son.

His pride more than anything else is what makes him unfit for the highest office of the land. Nebuchadnezzar himself would look downright humble in comparison to Trump. God tells us in no uncertain terms that He will resist the proud. Why then would evangelicals be in favor of supporting a president whom God is going to oppose every day that he is in office? Nothing is more offensive to God than pride!

When God foresaw that Israel would one day demand a king, He set certain conditions in place for the selection of any future potential king (Deut. 17:14-20). The first requirement was that they were not to appoint a foreigner over themselves.

The Bible clearly states that a foreigner was anyone who was uncircumcised. This is clearly the case with Trump who repeatedly reminds us that his heart and lips are anything but circumcised. The next requirement was that their king was to refrain from multiplying horses for himself. Horses are a type of man's self-sufficiency and self-dependency.

Trump repeatedly lets his audience know what great things he has accomplished and how he plans to "Make America Great Again." God further stipulated that their leader was not to multiply wives for himself. Once again Trump has proven his inability to keep his marriage covenant and rule over his own fleshly passions. God also required of the king that he was not to multiply gold for himself.

This "root of all evil" is why Trump disregards the rights of the poor by seizing their property in favor of his lust for fame and fortune. Finally, God stated that the king was to write a copy of these requirements for himself and that he was to read it daily, "that his heart may not be lifted up."

God's wisdom is clearly evident throughout this law. The king must rule internally before he has the right to rule externally. Trump is known throughout the world for his unrestrained cravings after the girls, gold and glory. Therefore his inability to overcome these godly requirements should disqualify him, in the eyes of God's people, from ever holding office.

Following Israel's demand for a king, like the nations around them, Samuel repeatedly warned them that if a man with unrestrained passion and ambition became their king, Israel would suffer greatly at his hands (1 Sam. 8:9-22).

I call on all those in leadership to let their people know that Trump will guarantee the demise of our nation if he is elected. God promised in His Word that He would tear down the house of the proud (Prov. 15:25). Once again, God's people face a choice as to whom to choose, just keep in mind, Trump means "to deceive."

Trump is merely a reflection of America

Very true statement.

Overwhelming number of "Evangelicals" are voting for him. Is he a reflection of the Evangelicals? What does that say about Evangelicals?

Yes, God typically gives America the leader they ask for & deserve.

I'm glad someone else who's known & respected is sharing what I have been sharing as I can see it. I too typically stay away from the political discussions, but sense something worth speaking out about in this race. Whatever you think about Ted Cruz, the stark contrasts in principle, experience, truthfulness, stance on abortion, stance on "Gay marriage", etc. is very noticeable between Trump & Cruz. And the integrity and maturity even in the debates is evident. Trump can't even let someone else talk without consistently rudely dominating & talking over them. He also resorts to attacking them personally or calling them names (like "loser" or worse) when they ask him hard questions about his own statements & he never actually answers the matter. I have taught my small single digit age children not to do those things. Trump apparently never was twilight these things, or always had enough $ (from all his casinos, strip clubs, etc.) to ignore common decency & demand his way while mowing over people.

Trump is on record in the past when asked on the view what he & his daughter have most in common saying "sex."? Say what?? He also said
that his daughter has the perfect body, & that if she weren't his daughter he'd be dating her??? As a father of two daughters, that makes me want to vomit. What was he thinking? This is the guy evangelicals are running to support? Where is the discernment?

And this guy was/has ALWAYS been Pro-Murder (Abortion). He's flip flopping now in public statements, but he still says "Planned Parenthood does a lot of great things for women" & wouldn't move to defund them?? Is he that ignorant? Planned Parenthoods founder, Margaret Sanger, was a racist eugenicist bent on extinguishing the black race. Planned Parenthoods other "services" are a cover up for the money maker of abortion, & how they "cook the books" & falsely tabulate "services" (each individual condom given out is a "service" equal to an abortion. That's how they get their percentages so falsified).

I agree that if America, & especially those who call themselves Christians, sit in church every week, have Bible's on their shelves, etc. vote for Trump, they'll get what they ask for & some of what they didn't think about. And as for those who will say we can't judge if he's a Christian or not truly (which is ludicrous at this point because we can judge a tree by its fruit & out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks), he said when asked if he had ever asked God for forgiveness? "I don't recall ever having to do that. I don't do bad things that need forgiveness." Yeah, sounds like the antithesis of the Gospel to me. Only when we don't really know the Word of God could we be this Gullible, naive & undiscenering

It also shows what's most important to most in America, unbelievers & professing believers alike: $. The idolatry of trusting in $ over principle. Fact is, this guy has bankrupt companies many many times & left low men on the totem pole in the dust. Don't be surprised if Mr Business man gets in & actually does the same to America (although we already have a debt impossible to ever repay anyways).

Saints let us be real. This is Super Tuesday. Before this day is out. Hillary Clinton will probably emerge as the frontrunner for the Democrats. And it goes without saying Donald Trump will emerge as a frontrunner for the Republicans. Although I could be wrong. I would like to be wrong. Before the end of the day it probably will be Hillary and Donald.

Evangelicals faced with a prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency are willing to vote for the likes of Trump. We saw this happen in 2012. Evangelicals faced with another 4 years of Barack Obama were willing to vote for a Mormon.

So despite David Ravenhill's excellent warning. I imagine a number of evangelicals will be casting their votes for Donald Trump.

Again simply my thoughts.

Bearmaster

I can already hear the evangelicals justifying their vote for the likes of Trump. It goes something like this. I'm not voting for a pastor but for a President.

Evangelicals used this same logic to justify their voting for a Mormon in 2012.

But then. Is Donald Trump really a president???

Bearmaster

But it could be avoided/averted. Cause if evangelicals all rallied behind Cruz (defender of life, defender of religious liberty, defender of the rule of law, etc.), it could be a total landslide. Sadly, at this point, it likely won't go that way though. There's a better choice in this race from our perspective than Trump, Romney, Clinton, etc.

There is a "better choice", Jeff. The Church needs to turn with all their heart towards Jesus Christ.

I have seen the church through the years get on different bandwagons and marshall everyone to choose this guy or that guy, and politics have always divided the church and the person they voted in invariably is a globalist that has, in the end disappointed them and America's sovereignty was weakened just a little more and citizen's constitutional rights eroded, just a little more. I won't get into individual personalities or why they are part of the globalist establishment because I only support one Person, anyway.

I decided long ago, elections are rigged. The establishment wants the people to think they have a voice, when they really don't. Trump is making people believe they have a voice, too but in the end, it is only a deception. The election year always turns out to be a year of massive deception, no matter who the candidate is. Stick around, you will see.

Long ago, I realized that only One Person that has my best interests at heart is Jesus Christ and so this year as in past years I will be voting for Jesus. He is my Commander in Chief and has never let me down. He gives me great optimism for the future no matter what is happening in this world.

The only thing the Church is doing by getting into politics of this world, is giving the world the wrong impression about what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is and what Christians are and further, they are precipitating persecution from the world upon themselves. When I realized the unholy alliance between religion and politics (the False Prophet riding the Beast), I wanted nothing to do with it.

Overall in general Julius, I tend to agree with you on some of what you said. That being said, if the choice is a real prolifer who defends religious freedom & defends the constitutional rule of law, or someone who doesn't really believe in any of those things, if a believer in good conscience wants to vote, who they vote for (for president, not for the Lord of their life) matters & reveals something of the heart, I believe. Anyways, my 2 cents. But I have no problem if someone chooses not to vote (some people do, but the right not to vote is just as real as the right to vote). I didn't vote in 2008 or 2012. But I will this time.

And above all, I am praying for God's ultimate will & purposes to be done in all of this regardless of who wins, even if that's Hillary Clinton (which itself would likely show to be a judgement on America over time).

Love your heart, dolfan. It is the Lord's heart for His people, for their true liberty and freedom and welfare are in Him.

2Ch 20:12 O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: BUT OUR EYES ARE UPON THEE.

Julia has hit upon the heart of the matter. In the end we will have to come out of Babylon. That is we will have to come out of the Babylon of this world system. And cleave as unto Jesus like never before. For jesus said my kingdom is not of this realm. That being said, we should live in His eternal realm, and not of this temporal realm.

Brothers simply my thoughts.

I believe that view is an imbalance. If a believer wants to run for a political office, they don't need to repent for that alone. If their desire is to uphold the law & honor God, that isn't ungodly. Where do you work Dolfan & Julius? What do you do for a living? I'll bet I could make the same unbalanced & unbiblical misapplication of scripture about your career as "the things of this world". I sell janitorial & custodial supplies. Do I need to pray "Lord, I repent for working on these things that will pass away"? No. What about Paul & his tent-making? Tents are not eternal. They are of this world. You can take that unbalanced (& misinterpreted) scripture to any extremes you want, but it don't make it right.

Again, my TRUST is not in a president. But if someone is running who wants to defend the rule of Law, the religious freedoms of its citizens, & fight to end abortion, voting for them isn't buying into "the things of this world". That's zealous, but wrong.

Those zealots who killed themselves at Masada to avoid Roman capture had a zeal, but it wasn't according to knowledge. If you don't want to vote, don't vote. But that doesn't make voting for a candidate with an actual Biblical worldview a sin to be repented of. As Lenard Ravenhill would have said, "that's Balderdash!"

At that point, is it a sin to be repented of to run for governor of a state? Or a mayor of your small town? How about head of your school board? Or "president" of your kids PTA? Are those systems "corrupt & of this world"? Can I even coach my kids' soccer team? I'm taking it "all the way" to make a point & evoke clearly & rightly rethinking (& walking back) some of the statements made.

Just be about the Father's business, Jeff. It is not my place to judge you. Where is the Holy Spirit leading you? The life of Jesus and the Apostles are good examples of what being about the Father's business is all about. Follow the Spirit and the Word, not reasoning and logic. Not saying you are following reasoning and logic. Just follow His voice and don't worry about what other's think. If you are confident the Lord is speaking to you, then true fruit will be the outcome.

AbideinHim, Jeff,

Do what is in your heart. Be fully engaged and don't be half-hearted. You won't get any fight from dolfan and I. If you are politically engaged or not, don't break fellowship. It is sad that I see this happen all too much over worldly politics. If you feel the Lord is in this for you, then follow Him with all your heart and extend the same for those who don't agree.

In my fellowship, worldly politics is never a subject that anyone speaks about, though people are free to vote, not vote, support or not support anyone they wish. But, it is never a test of fellowship. Somehow, everyone knows it is not an edifying subject to talk about because no one has ever said, "don't talk about politics."

Jimmy Carter nearly totally wrecked the country, the economy, everything. History is clear about that. He was the worse president in modern history until Obama came along to surpass him

Julius,
I agree. It never comes up in our meeting times, but a few of us share our thoughts (the men) in our time hanging out. Of course I would never part fellowship over politics! 😉 I just think mis-understanding &/or misapplication (over-contextualization) of scripture can lead to all kinds of error/wrong thinking. That's what I was speaking to. God Bless!

And the verse in 1 Chronicles may have "principles" that apply to us today for sure! However, in context, this was spoken to Israel in the old covenant where they were essentially a "Theocracy". I agree we should do all these things. And, if all those who professed to be believers in America REALLY did those things, I believe things would be drastically different. But where it is now I believe the tiny remnant who do these things will not hold back what the Lord has already decreed is coming. But we should still do them & preach it from the rooftops. No doubt.

And Jimmy Carter was the first in modern American politics to say that "We all (Muslims & Christians) worship the same God". In my Bible in 1 John, that's called "the spirit of antichrist". George Bush did the same after 9/11. I'll never forget where I was & what I was doing & I heard him say that on the radio. Blasphemy.

Well said Abide in Him. Just like I don't "trust in my job", but I still go to work & do it into the Lord with my ultimate trust in Him & Him alone. Let each one be convinced in his own mind and according to his own conscience. Scripture says to pray for peace that we may lead quiet lives among the heathen & live at peace with everyone as far as it depends on us. So if someone is for helping protect the freedoms to do just that (really, in truth, & has shown track record of proving it out over time, not just in political expediency talk) & I can vote for them, I will. If someone isn't really for those things (& doesn't see abortion for the murderous abomination that it is), then I won't/can't vote for them in good conscience. That's my 2 cents on the matter.

"Exhibit his faith" how? By claiming Allah & Jehovah are the same God? What faith is that? And Jimmy Carter also said "Jesus would be OK with some abortions" & "Jesus would be OK with gay marriage". Look it up. What faith is that exactly? The first church of apostates?

Brothers I do not want to get caught up in the controversy over whether a believer should vote or not vote. Whether one should be involved in politics or not involved in politics.

But I do pose this question. Can a believer vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton with a clear conscience? I think in November that's who the choice will be for president.

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/3/1 12:37:51

Julius,
I agree. It never comes up in our meeting times, but a few of us share our thoughts (the men) in our time hanging out. Of course I would never part fellowship over politics! 😉

That's good to hear.

I just think mis-understanding &/or misapplication (over-contextualization) of scripture can lead to all kinds of error/wrong thinking. That's what I was speaking to. God Bless!

I completely agree and God bless you, too.

Not trying to suck you into anything MrBillPro. You made a statement & I was simply quoting Jimmy Carter & asking how you come to your conclusion? No offense intended friend. My whole point is careful, discerning, examination of what people really believe/stand for when deciding to vote for them (or not vote for them). May God richly bless you!
In Him,
Jeff

by MrBillPro on 2016/3/1 12:54:06

Just in case some missed my point. Jimmy Carter did exhibit his faith publicly more than any other president, and again Mr. Bill did not vote for him.

It's going to come down to Trump or Clinton so take your choice, but a no vote say's you're happy with the way things are now.

Bill,

I have been happy and joyful in the Lord from Jimmy Carter to Obama. I don't look at the world and decide if I should be happy or not. My source is not what men do or don't do.

May the Lord bless the brother and sisters who cast their vote for men and may He continue to bless those who do not.

Be at peace brothers! All is well in the Kingdom of God.

Amen

by bearmaster on 2016/3/1 13:29:58

Brothers I do not want to get caught up in the controversy over whether a believer should vote or not vote. Whether one should be involved in politics or not involved in politics.

But I do pose this question. Can a believer vote for Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton with a clear conscience? I think in November that's who the choice will be for president.

Bear, by the same token, the brethren who vote can ask us if we can abstain from voting with a clear conscience. Let's not go there. We should not be judging someone's conscience as we don't want our conscience judged. If a man has faith to vote, then I say he has the liberty to vote. If a man does not have faith to vote, he also has the liberty not to vote. God is able to show either of us what His will is. Let's give the Lord the liberty to speak to us, if we don't then we make it harder for men to hear Him.

there is NO WAY this thread will end well, sans Greg just shutting it down.

Thank you saints for allowing this discussion to be civil and with the fruits of the Spirit. I was hesitant to post it as we almost never post anything near towards politics, especially american! But I felt the encouragement of the Lord to do so.

There have been alot of very good clear points made by saints in this thread.

that kind of palaver is WRECKING THIS FORUM.

by TMK on 2016/3/1 14:03:30

But Tim when the NT was written believers had absolutely no say as to who their leader would be. We do. Are we not to be steward of what we have been given?

Personally, I think that the people have no say, but they are made by men to think they do. For surely, God is not making us think we have any say/power over worldly governments through a ballot. Prayer yes, ballots, hmmmm.

Promotion comes not from the east or west but from the hand of God. So, if promotion comes from God and He raises up Kings and puts them down, has God commanded through the ballot, or is He wanting our prayers and intercession? If He has commanded through the ballot, then we must work to make sure every country has the ballot, but then we will be to busy for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

by TMK on 2016/3/1 14:03:30
Are we not to be steward of what we have been given?

What has been given to us? What do we possess that we can control? Do you really have control? If not, you are not a steward.

Brothers I do commend the discussion on this thread. The posts have been civil on this thread. Even if we have a different perspective on things. Basically the posters have been respectful of one another. I pray I have been respectful to the posters as they have been toward me. This is what a Christian forum should be.

I have been given food for thought through the posting of others. Regarding our involvement in politics. Particularly in the area of voting.

I might add I am not posting in a vacuum. I have worked for a number of years for the Arkansas State Assembly.. I have seen the workings of government albeit at the state level. So I would agree with what a brother posted. There is an anti-christ spirit that is working in the levels of government.

Simply my thoughts.

Here Paula White prays for Trump that "any tongue that rises against him would be condemned". All I can say is that multitudes are under a strong delusion. God help us.
https://youtu.be/oujaRBIDuoA

Julius my post was not to judge those who vote. But simply to pose a question for reflection. That is can anyone go into the voting booth as a believer in Christ. And vote for either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump with a clear conscience.

Personally I could not do so. But then I am not judging another's conscience. Brother the question the question is simply for thought and reflection.

by bearmaster on 2016/3/1 14:49:31

Julius my post was not to judge those who vote. But simply to pose a question for reflection. That is can anyone go into the voting booth as a believer in Christ. And vote for either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump with a clear conscience.

Personally I could not do so. But then I am not judging another's conscience. Brother the question the question is simply for thought and reflection.

Thanks, Bear. It is certainly a sobering subject to think about.

The world rages against one another like an unholy fire. I hate to see Christians get caught up in the affairs of this world (2 Tim 2:4), especially when doing so causes them to bite and devour one another. So, I too commend everyone for choosing the high road in this thread.

Jude 1:21-25 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Neil used the word palaver concerning todays topic.
(had to look it up as english is not my first language)

"PALAVER (noun)
The noun PALAVER has 2 senses:
1. flattery intended to persuade
2. loud and confused and empty talk

PALAVER (verb)
The verb PALAVER has 3 senses:
1. speak (about unimportant matters) rapidly and incessantly
2. influence or urge by gentle urging, caressing, or flattering
3. have a lengthy discussion, usually between people of different backgrounds"

Nice word, well used. Neil you should write more.

Sorry guys, I had put this post in the wrong thread. I am moving it now to this one.

I came across this article and after reading it, I was reassured that the political landscape is something I want to stay away from.

http://goo.gl/fLMM1z

If we all get the mind of the Lord, I wonder who the Lord is voting for (raising up)? Was it Obama in 2004 and 2008? Was God thwarted by the voters or did he purposely raise up Obama? Well, God doesn't do accidents, does He? You see, I never would have voted for Obama, so I would have been going against the Lord in the last two elections. Hey Lord, why did you raise up Obama? Do you support murdering children, Lord?

To be honest, I just don't have the mind of the Lord on who He will be raising up as the next President. Totally surprised me that His choice was Obama the last two cycles. But, His ways are higher than our ways. I've seen Christians become mortal enemies over politics. Why? Just to have someone elected that they did not vote for, yet after all is said and done they have to admit, that it is God that raises up Kings and puts them down.

Politics brings a whole lot of confusion, strife and enmity into the Church.

I have heard Christians who voted for Bush and then Romney say that God must be judging us by raising up Obama. So, they admitted that God raised up Obama, but they were going against God's will by voting for Bush/Romney. Better for the church to intercede and come out of the world and leave the raising up or putting down of kings to the KING!

brother,
I see mushroom clouds.

Neil,
That's literally the "vision" I saw in my spirit when the Lord reawakened me in my backsliding about 8+ years ago now (lovingly speaking to me in Grace & love & correcting my previously misdirected theology that had me thinking It was too late & I was already eternally condemned). I'll never forget that day. Standing at the bottom of our stairs putting a coat in the closet & THe Holy Spirit spoke crystal clear as He ever has into my spirit these words: "there is something coming soon my son & you are not ready" (& I saw a mushroom cloud in my mind's eye). I went up stairs started showering & fell down weeping feeling the loving restoration of the father for what was then my prodigal heart. It felt like "soon" was possibly just a month or less away. That's how strong it was upon me. The Lords timing isn't always ours (& we see in part & know in part), but I know it's coming. The Lord restored me & began healing & putting me back together again. It was the Lord and bore real fruit. I also have had a couple/few dreams in the last year or so that had Russian generals on the phone receiving their commands from angels to attack & spare not. This is why I know what is coming will not be stopped. Doesn't mean I have it all figured out, but I know that I know that the Lord has shown/spoken these things. To me probably because of my natural propensity to get busy with the basic necessities of life (sales job, 6 kids & 1 on the way, etc.) & I need these reminders of sobriety like Peter who said to stay sober, alert & watchful into prayer, for the end of all things is near. And I am not alone. Besides the Wilkerson's, Dean Long's, Rick Wiles, TD Hales, Henry Gruvers, Dimitri Dudamen's, etc. I know countless "hidden/unknown" saints who have seen/heard similar things in prayer, dreams & visions. This calls for sobriety & focus on things eternal. Prayer, fasting, evangelism, & doing all things which please the Lord while is called today.
God Bless,
Jeff

God bless, love and keep you, and your kin.
Be of stout heart and fear no evil.

God love you, neil

by JFW on 2016/3/1 23:15:42

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Good word, JFW.

I took a break from some work tonight and "tuned in", and saw Christians praying at Trump's headquarters. Days ago, I have seen Christians praying for Cruz and Christians praying for Rubio and of course there are Christians not voting for anyone, yet praying for the leaders of America. All the more that we should do everything to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace and not let worldly politics infect the Bride of Christ.

Sree,
actually, Paul tells us in that passage in Corinthians that "if any man WHO CLAIMS TO BE A BROTHER (which Trump does) is sexually immoral, greedy, a swindler, or covetous, such a man is an idolator,......with such a one do not even eat (fellowship with in any way, shape, form or fashion).." And says "we should be able to judge among ourselves the matter..." So proper application of the scriptures on judging are crucial to know, understand & apply as a whole. If Trump claims to be a Christian (which he clearly does) & is shown to be these things (do I really need to list how these are & have been true in His life here?), we SHOULD JUDGE THIS MATTER among ourselves (the brethren) & have nothing to do with such a one. That's just biblical fact verbatim.
God Bless,
Jeff

Let me ask you question:

Do you believe the Word of God? Do you believe 1 Corinthians should be in the canon & all scripture is inspired & God breathed? Les address what scripture clearly says/teaches & not our own personal analogies & theoretical word pictures, ok?

1 Corinthians 5
9I wrote to you in my letter xnot to associate with sexually immoral people””10xnot at all meaning xthe sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, xsince then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone xwho bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler””not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging xoutsiders? xIs it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. x"Purge the evil person from among you.”

"Did God really say?..." - Satan in the garden tempted Eve to ignore God's Word for his own convenient interpretation of truth.

When the subject of righteous & unrighteous judgement comes up, we should not go to our own reasoning, nor to just one verse out of context, but the whole of scripture in its proper context, & then "let God be true & every man a liar."

And the context of 1 John 4:17 (the verse you quoted about as he is in heaven so are we) is about abiding in Christ, abiding in his love, loving the brethren, etc. Amen & Amen! But 1 Corinthians 5 clearly addresses how to treat one who claims to be a brother (which Trump now does, even though he's never asked for forgiveness for anything because he doesn't need to - which makes me question the gullibility & lack of simple scriptural knowledge of many who don't even know the Gospel. Read the book of Galatians & Romans & we know that's not Christian one iota). "All scripture is useful for rebuking, reproving, correcting, encouraging, exhorting & training in righteousness"

And yes, I could pray for Trump! Of course. But that doesn't mean I can't point out the inconsistencies in what he's saying. Especially when he's now claiming to be a Christian & tons of naive believers fall for this stuff. A sham

Brothers the discussion on this thread has been good thus far. I imolore you please do not disagree over the likes of Donald Trump. Or over the likes of Hillary Clinton. Both will probably be the candidates of the Democrats and Republicans. And both are not worth the disagreements. In the end they both are lost and need Christ.

Remember our agreement is in Jesus. He is the one we worship. We all are brothers and sisters in Him. We may have a difference of opinion over politics. But I implore you. Don't let these candidates that are given over to Satan bring disunity among us here.

Brothers simply my thoughts. I love each and everyone of you. & I believe you're standing firm in the Lord. Let us labor together for Him to see His kingdom purposes advanced.

Your brother in Christ,

Blaine

he's now claiming to be a Christian

That might be the crux of the issue and hitting to the heart of the problem. It will be "christians" who will persecute believers in the end times. It was a "christian" germany that was led by hitler with churches and all into their world-wide conquest. One of their main emblems in german translated is: "God is with us"

Bro Greg writes.......

"That might be the crux of the issue and hitting to the heart of the problem. It will be "christians" who will persecute believers in the end times."

Indeed. The religious, the flesh, have always been the deadliest enemies of those of the spirit. When the Lutheran church in Germany had a chance to speak out and stand against Hitler, it did not in fact quite the opposite. The confessing church in Germany never considered itself to be a schism but indeed the Body of Christ departing from an institution given over to the world...............bro Frank

Brother our choice for president may very well come down to Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. To say that both of these people are not believers and in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ is not judgement. It is simply a fact. The testimony of their lives and what comes out of their mouth make that very obvious.

If I make the statement that Barack Hussein Obama is not a Christian. It is not a judgement. But again a statement of fact. The policies of the President and his condemnation of the Christian faith make it obvious that he does not know Jesus Christ. And again he is in need of the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Not judging are condemning any of the above. But when we look at the likes of Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, or Barack Hussein Obama, it is obvious that these people do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. And certainly do not have his Spirit ruling in their heart.

I do agree. We need to pray for whoever the next president will be. And we need to pray for this current president. If anything we need to pray that they come into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

Simply my thoughts.

Brother Frank I agree. It seems like God is calling for the remnant to come out of the Babylon of the American evangelical political church.

Simply my thoughts bro.

I wonder how Paul the Apostle behaved while a prisoner of Caesar? Did he undermine and speak evil of him or did redemptive grace flow forth from his life? If Paul spoke evil of him then he died not for the cause of Christ, but for his own cause. That is not a glory to God. If Paul blessed Caesar and his household without cursing them, then it is a glory to God that Paul died a martyrs death in the service of our Lord. Serving the Lord in the same way that Christ served us and demonstrated to us how to walk in a fallen world before those who persecute us.

The Constitution gives us "Freedom of Speech", but does the Lord give us the same? Do we as Christians have freedom to say anything we desire to rulers and leaders? I hear so many Christians railing against rulers. This is their world, played by their rules and very little redemptive grace is going forth from the Church to ungodly men.

How will God get our attention and put us back on the same course as the Apostles and the Early Church? I fear when persecution comes, those who name the name of Christ will turn to the arm of the flesh. For those who are railing and cursing now, will no doubt pick up arms and seal their delusion.

Greg,
Excellent points.

JFW,
That's the entire crux of the issue. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are not our brothers and sisters. Now if people don't know the things that those two have said, and done, and stood for, then someone in ignorance ( and I say that not derogatorily but in the purest definitional sense of the word which means "a lack of knowledge"), I can understand what you're saying as being easily misunderstood and attempting to be gracious. But when you know what these people have actually said, and done, and continue to do, and how they play I can understand what you're saying as being easily misunderstood and attempting to be gracious. But when you know what these people have actually said, and done, and continue to do, and how they playcate four votes and make statements about them being Christians when they not only have no testimony and clearly don't even understand the Gospel, but the things they stand for, and say, and two are actually opposed to the gospel, then I think first Corinthians 5 applies .

I get it, I understand wrote this to the Corinthian church for someone within their fellowship. I get it, I understand and wrote this to the Corinthian church for someone within their fellowship. However, I believe people have tried to go to these people privately, and publicly because I've seen the interviews and explain these things and they clearly are not received and or understood, clearly because they're not believers in the biblical sense.

So I think analyzing the actual statements" that they themselves have made publicly is not wrong, that goes along with simple plain common sense judgment and discernment. In the same way that public fast teachers and it's a distort the gospel are not held to the first Corinthian's five procedure either. If they Fasley teach and preach publicly, and they are subject to be corrected, and repute publicly for the sake of the understanding young and immature sheep Who are not yet skilled in the word of God and discerning through constant use of it.

Donald Trump is not a Christian. He doesn't even know what the basketball is and has never asked God for forgiveness because he doesn't think he needs to. Hillary Clinton is not a Christian. She's as pro choice as they come (& Donald always has been too until this election possibility with the Republican Party). If you can't see/discern that plainly & simply, I really don't know what else to say that would be beneficial or for edification.

Fact is, "they claim to be a brother", so should be treated as 1 Corinthians 5 instructs

Julius,
The major clear and obvious difference is that Cesar did not claim to be a Christian

Sorry for all the stupid typos too. Donald Trump probably does know what a basketball is but that's not what I was saying. It should've said he doesn't even understand what the gospel of Jesus Christ is

So, we can rail against leaders who "claim" to be Christians?

I have seen some venomous words from the Church directed towards some of these people that claim to be Christians.

Must be people who "claim to be Christian" railing against others who "claim to be Christian", for neither one are speaking words "seasoned with grace".

Col 4:5-6 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Election year is always such a big test for the "Church in the World."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56329&forum=45

Like the last thread you misdirected your comments, I'm not talking about what "some people" have said. I'm talking about David Ravenhill said in the OP & the comments I have added. Stating facts & quoting someone is different than "railing on someone"

Jeff,

I wonder what you might think after you read this. Take your time, you don't have to do it today.

The Church in the World
http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/frazier/cworld.htm

Some are troubled that some of us are calling into question the Christianity of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. To say that Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton are not believers in Christ appears to be railing against them.

Would this be more acceptable. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump claim to be Christians. But their walk must be called into question because of things they have said. And because of their life. Their speech and life do not reflect one who follows Christ.

Would the above be acceptable? If not. Then respectfully I ask why?

Blaine

Julius,
I commented on it in the other thread.

Bear,
Good points & well said.

TMK,
Not sure what your point was, & Don't take this the wrong way, but I have said that too before (& should not have) even as a believer. I haven't however supported the mass extinction of unborn babies by the millions. And I understand the Gospel, have been born again, have a Biblical testimony, etc.

Dear saints,

I believe the point and purpose of the thread has been accomplished and it catered some reasonable discussion and thinking on this. We do not encourage much at all discussion on politics in the forum so this has been something special and allowing David ravenhill a voice to the saints in this way along with our responses.

We are locking the thread, thank you to all who contributed.