The great persecution that is soon to come upon the remnant Church

Hi Saints, I would like to speak about a subject that really has been the driving force behind much of what I have written in the last few years and this piece will be of no surprise to those who have read even a small amount of what I have written. Obviously I am not of the pre-trib rapture position. And that is the last you will hear me mention any such phrases because I believe if we use certain phrases then we simply get pigeon- holed. Enough to say that I would soundly reject the very premise of the ” Left behind” series. We will go through the great tribulation and we will suffer and most of us who are alive at that time will be martyred.

Now, the many positions that Christians take on last days are well documented. I would encourage everyone to read the Scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into the truth. Do not follow men and the teachings of men on these matters. You must be convinced in your spirit of these things that are shortly to come to pass. Now, as one who went to Bible school and who aced his ” premillennial dispensationalism,” class ( should have got the A just for being able to say and spell it) I could certainly give you the historical views of the three main positions and would also be able to tell you about the birth of dispensationalism and the pre-trib-rapture theory. But, I am not going to do that. You can certainly do the research yourself and come to your own conclusions. As I said, ultimately the Holy Spirit has to teach you and lead you and guide you. In this article I am just going to share with you my burden and what I believe is shortly to come to pass. You, of course, are free to agree or to disagree or take what you will and leave the rest.

I believe that persecution is coming to the Church, the remnant, whoever truly belongs to Jesus. I do not believe that God’s hand will be stayed in this because I believe that He has His purpose and that it is part of the prophetic calendar. So let me lay out for you how I ” see,” the times that are approaching. There is something that we call Christendom. To me, that is everything that calls itself by the name of Christ. This would include every denomination, including Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Evangelicals a host of Non-denominational churches and the man in the street who does not go to any church but if you were to push him, he would call himself either a believer or a Christian.

Now let me say plainly, I believe that only a very small percentage of that which calls itself Christian is in fact true born-again, new creature in Christ, sold out disciples of Jesus. Various men have given numbers over the years, Ravenhill once said that he reckoned only 7% of professing Christians in America were actually Christians. The truth is, I have no idea. I do know that Jesus said that many were called but few were chosen and that the road to heaven was a narrow one and few there were that found it. That’s not so complicated and I see no need to complicate it further by adding to what Jesus said.

And so, how will the persecution come about and who will persecute the saints of God, martyring them and believing they are doing God a favor by doing it? Well, I believe that the vast majority of Christendom that is not saved will soon morph into the great whore church. What is this great whore church? Well it will be a church that will bring together the major religions of the world under one roof. Islam, Judaism and Christianity will join together under a false prophet who will testify to the authenticity of the man of peace, the anti-Christ. Tumultuous circumstances in the world will give rise to this anti-Christ. People of every nation will be mesmerized by him and by his displays of power. Only the saints will not falL for this grand delusion. And as they refuse to follow him they become the targets of hatred of the world in general and specifically the religious.

Now I believe that there will be a direct correlation between the rise of persecution of the pouring out of God’s Spirit upon His people. What will come first I do not know. I lean towards persecution coming first and God pouring His Spirit into His people in order for them to deal with this, yet I also believe that prior to the beginnings of the great tribulation that God will pour out His Spirit upon His people in measure and that this will really be the beginnings of a deep hatred from the religious people. You see, there are many who desire to see a great outpouring of His Spirit but there are few who embrace the cross of Calvary, few who embrace the hard narrow path of the Word of God.

And so who amongst us can embrace a God that has martyrdom in mind for us? Some may see this kind of thinking as some kind of doom and gloom preaching. Yet, the people who I am writing this article too know very well that this is not so. You see, the Bride-groom is coming back for His bride the Church. We know that the time is short. And so we would celebrate the end of the ages because the Lord is coming. We know that we have been walking through a dry and thirsty land, a land in the midst of famine, and whatever it takes for God to pour out His Spirit in power, then the child of God embraces that.

If it takes a mighty confrontation on the mountain for the rain to come , then so it must be. If the word has to go out ” choose ye this day whom you will serve,” then that word must go out. If the five virgins without oil must be warned then they must be warned. If there is a generation of saints that are alive at the culmination of the ages and that generation has to be us, then praise the Lord for He knows what He is doing.

Saints, we know that we do not battle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. When those principalities and powers know that their time is short, what would we expect from such a great darkness? If God increases the light in His children, if He pours out His Spirit as in the latter rains, what would we expect the enemy of our souls to do? Sit idly by? No, we know that there is a time coming such as has never been before. The time is coming when every child of God will be hunted down and killed by the anti-Christ.

Yet I want you to know that this scenario also includes the filling of saints in such a fashion that they could not even imagine. The power that we will have will be the power to resist the greatest evil that the world has ever seen. We will be filled with a hell-shaking love, the same hell destroying love that we witnessed on Calvary. The same hell shaking love that we saw in our brother Stephen as he was stoned to death.

If you have ever experienced the presence of God, the manifest presence of God then the scenario of being filled with such perfect love that casts out all fear is one that is to be relished. To walk in the power of our Lord, to walk in the Spirit in such a fashion that has yet to be witnessed on the earth, this is a glorious prospect for God’s children. The genuine saint has spent all of his walk with the Lord with an earnest desire to be more like Him. Genuine persecution and refining fire only kills the flesh in us, it does nothing to the Spirit of God in us. And so the more the genuine saint is persecuted, the more of Christ the world will see. As the world comes against us with all of the fury of hell behind it, it will only see a greater expression of Jesus. This is the paradox, the irony, the ultimate weakness of evil, the ultimate triumph of good over evil.

Now brothers and sisters, are we that people? Can you say that the desire of your life is to be more like Jesus and to follow Him? Do you love Him above all else? Are you worthy to be His disciple? Now is the time to have your Gethsemane. The battle of Calvary was won in the garden of Gethsemane. Will you turn back when these things begin to unfold? And so the question bears repeating ” Who amongst us can embrace a God that has called us to martyrdom?” Remember, when it became clear that the Lord Jesus was to become a suffering servant, one who was to be despised by the multitude, rejected, humiliated, tortured and then crucified, how many stood with Him?

If you have to face the same things in the coming persecution, will you still stand with Him? Jesus urged His disciples to pray because He knew what was about to come to pass, He Himself prayed and overcame the flesh in the garden before the time came and He found victory in the Garden. He had made up His mind that He would bow to the will of His Father. Can you do the same now saint? Can you make up your mind now that come what may, if events of the end time are not how you supposed them to be or have been taught that they will be, that never-the-less you will bow to the will of your Father and embrace the God that calls you to martyrdom?

Dear brother in the Lord, my Spirit filled brother in Christ let me respectfully disagree with you when you say that many saints will be preserved from martyrdom. This is not the story of the saints down through the ages and it will not be the case at the end of the age.

This wonderful psalm that you speak of is the psalm of the martyr, the saint the witness. For he that dwelleth in the secret place of the most high is the greatest enemy to our common enemy, Satan, and they shall indeed abide in the shadow of the almighty.

Consider brother if you will these verses from that psalm..............For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
(Psa 91:11-12)

Now we know and Satan certainly knew of whom that psalm spoke of. Yet we know Christ was crucified, willingly and it was there that He makes an open shame of Hell and all its fury and breaks the power of sin and death. He did that because of His willing sacrifice, refusing to render evil for evil but rather crying out " forgive them Father for they know not what they do."

Consider another psalm, equally as famous, psalm 23. Even though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death we shall fear no evil. Even in the midst of that He will makes us to lie down in green pastures ( under the shadow of the Almighty) and we shall dwell beside still waters. He prepares a table before me after He takes care of all my enemies? No, in the very presence of my enemies I triumph and not as the world considers triumph, no our triumph is foolishness to the world. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimonies and we love not our lives unto death, this is our power and our triumph over our enemies, not that our mortal lives and bodies are some how preserved, but that whether we live or whether we die we glorify God...............bro Frank

Good post, Savannah. I don't know about Frank's eschatological views but do agree with everything else you said. The Remnant has been under persecution for all of the "Last Days", up until today.

Savannah, I agree that my personal view is evident in what I have written. Is there another way to write? I am sure you would agree that Christ is coming back and prior to His return, as written in Matt 24, things will be like in the days of Noah? Or perhaps you would not agree with that, I may be presupposing :) ............bro Frank

Savannah writes......

"This "great persecution" and "great tribulation" of which you speak, is now and has been, the experience of His people(remnant). God's people in the USA may not know it by experience, but as I said, it is and has been."

Savannah that is just simply factually incorrect. Can you give us a time and place where there has been a worldwide persecution against the saints? Perhaps the closest was Diocletion prior to Constantine where there was an attempt to wipe Christians out in the known world. Outside of that persecution was regional. There will come a time shortly where the whole world will persecute the saints as opposed to the limited regional persecution we see now. Now, all men have their opinions but let us leave Jesus with the final word...........bro Frank

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
(Mat 24:4-33)

I think that is kind of a "canard", Frank.

Wherever Christ lives in the hearts of people, Satan has persecuted them. True Believers in all nations have always been persecuted.

2Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Don't look to the worldly church, they will not be persecuted.

Brothers I have no desire to engage in sophistry or debate. But to stay abreast and informed in my prayer ministry I read reports from various sources regarding worldwide persecution believers. The consensus of these reports agree that there is a global persecution of believers in Jesus. More so now than at the beginning of redemptive history.

I will not bore you with the latest statistics save one. On a conference call regarding persecution. It was reported that believers come under some sort of persecution in 151 nations. The United Nations estimates that there are 192, give or take, geo political entities that are considered nations.

When Jesus said that you will be hated by all nations on account of my name. It seems to me we are two thirds of seeing that prophecy fulfilled. It can be argued that there has always been persecution of believers since the birth of the church at Pentecost. But what we are seeing is the increase of persecution of believers. And that at the global level.

Again brothers simply my thoughts.

Brother Blaine

Here is one sampling:
http://www.brucegourley.com/baptists/persecutionoutline.htm

I can provide you links for the 1800's and 1900's if you like.

Persecution will increase to the degree that people come out of Babylon and start to live "godly in Christ Jesus", otherwise persecution will not increase.

We hear about "persecution increasing", but we don't equally hear about people repenting and "coming out of Babylon", increasing, so there is a disconnect.

Religious Babylon and the Political kingdom will get along for the most part.

Then brother I say respectfully you're not reading the right reports.

Blaine

Yuehan

1 Peter 4:1-2

Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourself also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin so as to live the rest of his life in the flesh no longer for the lust of men, but for the will of God.

There is a purifying aspect of persecution that does kill our flesh. And causes us to live to do the will of God.

Brother Blaine

Bear, read the previous chapter, too.

"Suffering in the flesh" also includes the "crucified life", does it not? Picking up your cross, denying self (flesh) and following Jesus. The cross is onerous to the flesh.

We cannot create a persecution theology that this is the only thing that cleanses a Christian. It won't cleanse a Christian if they are not living the crucified life. It is the working of the Cross of Jesus Christ by the Spirit that perfects holiness in us.

The original post stands. If there are those who disagree with it then God bless you. We shall agree to disagree. For those who have not read the OP, please read it prayerfully and then consider the words of Jesus in Matthew 24 rather than the words of men..............bro Frank

Tozer.....

' Between the scribe who has read and the prophet who has seen there is a difference as wide as the sea. We are today overrun with orthodox scribes, but the prophets, where are they? The hard voice of the scribe sounds over evangelicalism but the Church waits for the tender voice of the saint who has penetrated the veil and has gazed with inward eye upon the wonder that is God. And yet, thus to penetrate. to push sensitive living experience into the Holy presence, is a privilege open to every child of God."

Hi bro Blaine, I love this Scripture...........

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

There is a spirit of glory that rests upon those who are reproched or suffer fiery trial for His name sake. Of course our old friend Algerius wrote so eloquently about this from a place of extreme suffering. Deep words from a man who was speaking from experience rather than from theory and his experience lines up beautifully with the Word of God...............bro Frank

I propose throughout time it is both.

Yes, living the obedient, humble, crucified life is what matters & yes, persecution ALWAYS purifies the true bride (& separates the wheat from the chaff in a sense too).

Amen on Tozer's quote too Frank!

Art Katz always explained well that there's a "tension" between the Teaching & Peophetic gifts. Especially since we all just "see in part & know in part." But oh what beautiful & sweet perfume is made & poured out when these two come together, purify & bless each other, glean from the other parts of the Body, & dwell in unity! We have seen this in our local fellowship & close friends & even leaders. It's ain't always "easy", but worth the struggle as we grow together into one head, which is Christ.

Learn as in all things to be humble always, & to glean from & grow as a result of the minister with gifts opposite (or different I should say) than yours. But when the teachers explain away & over-textualize the ministry of the prophet, only dry orthodoxy is produced. When the prophetic gift is not tempered, humble, & willing to dig deeper doctrinally, then grievous embarrassing error can abound in the midst. You see this even in denominations/sects today:

1.) The stiff orthodox doctrinal camps can be "correct" on many things (except the prophetic gifts & such which they create new doctrines of men to explain away because there are errors in the name of such)

2.) The "Charismania" of "anything goes" & nothing gets checked/tested & the whole church suffers public disgrace at the lack of discernment.

BOTH ARE EQUALLY WRONG & IMBALANCED.

What a sweet fragrance when the prophet & priest/scribe (teacher in NT terminology) dwell together in unity, feed the Body from their giftings, & humble themselves continually in the fellowship! This is love & the fertile ground where true "grace & truth" abound!

1 Corinthians 12

One Body with Many Members

12For just as xthe body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, xso it is with Christ. 13For xin one Spirit we were all baptized into one body””xJews or Greeks, slaves or free””and xall were made to drink of one Spirit.

14For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18But as it is, xGod arranged the members in the body, each one of them, xas he chose. 19If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you.” 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, 25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, xall rejoice together.

27Now xyou are the body of Christ and individually xmembers of it. 28And xGod has appointed in the church first xapostles, second xprophets, third teachers, then xmiracles, then xgifts of healing, xhelping, xadministrating, and xvarious kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But xearnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way.

And that is followed with 1 Corinthians 13 which speaks about love, without which, none of this works in real Body life, where the rubber meets the road

Saints, we know that we do not battle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. When those principalities and powers know that their time is short, what would we expect from such a great darkness? If God increases the light in His children, if He pours out His Spirit as in the latter rains, what would we expect the enemy of our souls to do? Sit idly by? No, we know that there is a time coming such as has never been before. The time is coming when every child of God will be hunted down and killed by the anti-Christ.

It is sobering to realize the days we are coming into. It is clear in the Gospels that persecution will be world-wide, Matthew 24.

But that a witness will go out through the remnant to the nations including rulers is the purpose of God allowing such rampant persecution even in America that will take place.

"No words can describe how much the world owes to sorrow. Most of the Psalms were born in a wilderness. Most of the Epistles were written in a prison. The greatest thoughts of the greatest thinkers have all passed through the fire. The greatest poets have "learned in suffering what they taught in song." In bonds Bunyon lived the allegory that he afterwards wrote, and we may thank Bedford prison for "Pilgrim's progress. Take comfort, afflicted Christian! When God is about to make a preeminent use of a person, He puts them in the fire." (George McDonald)

"There is more safety with Christ in the tempest , than without Christ in the calmest waters. The river would lose its song if you removed the stones. My soul, alas, needs these uneasinesses in outward things, to be driven to take refuge in God." (Henry Martyn)

"This hope we have is an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus. (Hebrews 6:19-20)

by yuehan on 2016/3/4 11:50:19

Bearmaster - I checked the verse in the NASB version, there's a footnote suggesting that "Christ has suffered in the flesh" means "Christ has suffered death". This interpretation makes sense given the verses preceding it in 1 Peter 3.

So I believe the meaning of Peter 4:1-2 is aligned with what Paul wrote in Romans 6:7 - "for he who has died is freed from sin", rather than persecution making us free from sin.

It is the blood of Christ which purifies us, and it is our being united in His death that buries our old man. We are already resurrected with Him and enjoy life as new creatures with new affections.

Claiming that persecution has a purifying effect is to demean the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

God has already granted us all things pertaining to life and godliness today (2 Peter 1:3). My trust is in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and His finished work.Many good words by all, here.

Good words by many.

There are many forms of persecution. From the minute a man is born-again he is persecuted by the powers of darkness, family, the world and so-called brothers. You can be marginalized, ostracized, slandered, and on an on.

I don't recall David being tortured by King Saul (Princes) nevertheless Saul persecuted him, was slandering his name at home while his men were always hunting David down. That is how it is with many Christians who are living godly lives. The enemy is constantly "hunting them down", trying to besmirch their name, but the Lord delivers them from all the power of the enemy. Eventually, all the enemy can do is kill the body just to shut the Christian up.

Psa_119:161 Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

The powers of darkness, working through people can persecute a person's soul and in David's case it was particularly hurtful because his own brethren (Saul and Israel who aligned themselves with Saul) persecuted him.

Psa_143:3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.

Some people have built persecution theologies and persecution ministries and will protect them with everything they have, but only what God has raised up will stand as He is shaking all things. I am not saying anyone here is doing that and I am sure no one is, but we should all be warned that Satan is always trying to take us away from Christ, from His Person, from His centrality in the Church and he will do this by glorifying parts of Christianity even, anything that will take our eyes off of Christ.

"We all know people who have been made much meaner and more irritable and more intolerable to live with by suffering: it is not right to say that all suffering perfects. It only perfects one type of person ”“ the one who accepts the call of God in Christ Jesus.” ~ Oswald Chambers

"We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.” 2 Corinthians 4:8-10

"My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” ~ James 1:2-4

"I am not a theologian or a scholar, but I am very aware of the fact that pain is necessary to all of us. In my own life, I think I can honestly say that out of the deepest pain has come the strongest conviction of the presence of God and the love of God.” ~ Elisabeth Elliot

"I am certain that I never did grow in grace one-half so much anywhere as I have upon the bed of pain.” ~ Charles Spurgeon

Suffering trials and tribulations, far from taking our eyes off of Christ as one poster suggested, brings us deeper into the heart of God for those who yield to their own personal circumstances and glorify God in the midst of it. This is the task of the remnant Bride as persecution arises all over the world and saints are hated by all nations in every tribe and tongue and nation, then the Spirit of Glory rests upon the Church worldwide as the waters covers the sea...........bro Frank

Yes, amen.

Good quotes Frank. Universal Christian Truth indeed.

Open Doors (started by Brother Andrew), VOM, Spirit of Martyrdom, etc. are all ministries very focused on our persecuted brethren. And frankly, I thank God for, pray for, & support them. They minister to & champion for those who are serving the person of Christ in lands where it REALLY costs something great. Thank God for them. Pray for them. Support them. In many a way, these are "the least of these my brethren" & I believe there will be some accountability for how we viewed, treated, & spoke of them on that great day before the throne. I am FULLY PERSUADED of this.

by appolus on 2016/3/4 14:04:54

"We all know people who have been made much meaner and more irritable and more intolerable to live with by suffering: it is not right to say that all suffering perfects. It only perfects one type of person ”“ the one who accepts the call of God in Christ Jesus.” ~ Oswald Chambers

Good scriptures and quotes, Frank. This one is so true. Some run away from God and some run too Him during times of testing.

Who has not "run away" and yet drawn back by His wise, loving and merciful hand and learning to submit to a God whose ways are higher than ours?

You post

.......some people have built persecution ministries and persecution theologies and will protect them with everything they have.......

Brother respectfully you make a generalization. There are grassroots ministries that operate on a shoestring budget. Abd God is using them. I sit on the board of one such ministry. The sister that operates this ministry operates it out of her computer room in her home. She draws no salary. As a matter of fact much of her own funds goes into this ministry. This sister is a wife, mother, grandmother, and a caregiver to her mother who has stage 4 cancer.

Sitting on the board of directors of this ministry I am aware of how the funds are dispersed. Any person who gives to this ministry will know that the funds are going to directly to the persecuted

We currently have missions in Nigeria and Thailand. We are currently supporting families that have been displaced by Islamic Jihadists.

Brother no one is fending a ministry of persecution. Or a theology of persecution. This is the reality of the times that we live in. This is how this ministry was birthed. The sister who leads this ministry felt a calling of God to minister to families that had been displaced by the persecutors. She is not defending anything. Or calling attention to herself. This is why I am not mentioning the name of the ministry in this post.

Perhaps there are ministries that are not operating in the Dpirit and a God-given calling. But the ministry I am associated with is not one of them.

I remember speaking with an associate of a frontline ministry that God led me to give to. I asked him if its CEO drew a six figure income. And if they had a gleaming office building. The brother I spoke with chuckled. He said their CEO lived in a restricted nation. And each day he stepped outside his door his life was forfeit.

Brother I feel your remark is quite offensive to ministries that are ministering in restricted nations. I say respectfully. Please educate yourself on the persecuted church. For to make such comments is very disrespectful to those servants of God who are laying down their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Respectfully

Brother Blaine

Yuhan you post

.......Claiming that persecution has a purifying effect is to demean the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.......

Brother respectfully to say that persecution has a purifying aspect no way takes away from the person and work of Jesus Christ and what he has done on the cross

For you and others in this forum I say unequivocally that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves. And His blood does cleanse us from sin.

But there is a difference between what took place objectively at Calvary where we were identified with Christ in His crucifixion and subsequent resurrection. And what takes place in our lives. The Crucified life is one that has to be worked out daily in the life of the believer. It is a daily dying to the flesh. And crucifying ourselves so that Christ will live in us.

We quote Galatians 2:20 that says I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in a flash I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself up for me. But to simply quote that verse will not bring about the reality of the Crucified life that you and you Julius talk about.

The crucified Life is one where we moment-by-moment must yield ourselves to the Lord Jesus Christ. And be prepared to surrender to His will and His lordship. This is not done automatically. But must be a continually surrendering of our will to His will. Jesus ultimately demonstrated to us the crucified life as he agonized in prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. Ultimately he prayed Lord not my will but yours be done. The early Anabaptist had a term for such a surrender. They called it galosenheit. A German term that spoke of total surrender to the will of God. Even to the point of persecution and death.

Persecution does have a purifying aspect. Persecution also conforms this to the character of Christ. Which is the ultimate end of Christian character. I will share more verses in a fallowing post.

Respectively posted.

Brother Blaine

Bear,

We all make generalizations if you read enough posts. We make generalizations because we know these things happen and have happened in the past and will happen in the future and it is a warning to people to exercise wisdom and discernment. There was recently a very big thread on one such ministry here on SI.

A generalization does not indict anyone. The Apostles made generalizations so often without naming names just to warn everyone.

Even the good ministries today will warn us to be careful about false ministries. They will disassociate themselves with false ministries by carefully detailing how all their money is spent just because they want to remain above reproach.

We are not ignorant nor should we be of Satan's devices.

Surely, you are not saying that no one should ever warn the sheep in a general way about false ministries desiring to take their money.

Hebrews 5:8

Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

In the verse above we see that Jesus was a Son. He certainly did not need to learn obedience. But he is left as an example to us. An example that we to learn obedience in the things which we suffer.

In His humanity Jesus leaves us an example. An example that in His sufferings he trusted God and learned to obey Him. As such. In our sufferings and persecutions we too are to learn obedience. The obedience of the Crucified life. The obedience of taking up our cross to follow Jesus.

James 1:2-4

Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter of various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result so that you may be perfect and complete lacking in nothing.

In the verses above and the corresponding verses found in Romans 5:1-5 we see God using persecution and suffering to perfect our character as unto Jesus himself. As a matter of fact James says we are to consider it joy. Paul writes that we are to exalt in our tribulation. In doing so we realize that our character is being molded into the likeness of Christ himself.

There are probably other verses. But the above vs to speak of God using persecution the teachers obedience. And God also using persecution to mold us into the likeness of Jesus Christ. So I believe that we can say there is a purifying aspect of persecution.

To say such does not take away from the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. But if anything. To incarnate the Crucified life that he requires in our lives.

To sum up. I will say simply my thoughts.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Brother I had no idea where your post was coming from. I know you tend to take issue with Frank and I when we speak of increased persecution. So I humbly apologize if I took your post personally.

I do agree we need to be aware of false ministries of any type. I am not aware of such ministries that operate in the realm of the persecuted church. They may be out there. And yes we do need to be aware of them.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Now that general warnings have been given let us consider the original post. If I were to tell you that you had four months left to live, would even the best among us live the same way as we had been living? I doubt it and hope not.

There is a call that Jesus gives to the Church to overcome, yes indeed all the promises in the first three chapters of Revelation are to those who overcome and endure until the end. The Lord also taught this in Matt 24....

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Yes the end of our lives but also the end of the ages ( as the context of Matt 24 undoubtedly speaks to) in which we will face challenges such as has never been faced before.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Of course this cannot be the destruction of Jerusalem. There have been much greater tribulations that the world has endured just in the last century with over 90 million people killed in just two wars. And since we are still here and the tribulation will be greater than anything that has went before then there are truly unimaginable days that lie ahead.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

We praise the Lord that God will be with us and never leaves us nor forsakes us, in fact when the enemy comes in like a flood He raises up a standard. It follows then that if the greatest persecution is to come then therefore the greatest infilling of God's saints are ahead since the Lord raises up a standard in His people so that they may resist the evil that will come against them as Satan makes his last stand. This is a glorious future for the saints who will endure and overcome. The glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Again the context is the end. If their arises false prophets then God shall raise up genuine prophets who will speak boldly without fear or favor of man. I believe that the Lord is raising up such men and women for these coming last days, praise God.............bro Frank

This is a great sermon from bro Brian Long gave at the SI conference on coming persecution four years ago, it is well worth listening to..............bro Frank

https://youtu.be/hfV9YHq9p3Q

by bearmaster on 2016/3/4 16:22:31

Brother I had no idea where your post was coming from. I know you tend to take issue with Frank and I when we speak of increased persecution. So I humbly apologize if I took your post personally.

I do agree we need to be aware of false ministries of any type. I am not aware of such ministries that operate in the realm of the persecuted church. They may be out there. And yes we do need to be aware of them.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Brother, I am sorry that you think I tend to take issue with Frank. I don't. I thoroughly enjoy his posts. But, since you think I do, I am concerned and will pay much closer attention to my attitude and my postings. I do appreciate you bringing your concerns and perception to my attention. And I appreciate your work for the Lord and keeping all of us informed on the persecution front.

God bless, bro.

Julius I am sorry bro. I'm sorry I took your post so personally. Sometimes my passion for the persecuted can go to an extreme.

You do caution balance in your post. And brother for that I appreciate you.

So please accept my apology. And check out the awesome song by Fernando Ortega. Because I believe the cry of your heart is the same as a cry of my heart. It is the cry of our persecuted brothers and sisters. And that is give me Jesus.

Appreciate you bro. You are ny brother in Christ. Look forward to swapping sermonindex stories with you around the crystal sea with Jesus in His presence.

Your brother in Christ,

Blaine

:) I have always love Fernando's heart for the things of God. My wife introduced me to his music years ago. I do recommend.

Appreciate you too, Bear. Keep truckin' for the Lord.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

We shall be hated by all nations for that name which is above every name.............Jesus.

It is amazing that most bible teachers in the West ignore these passages and claim they have been fulfilled already. We are unprepared for what is coming.

There is a great spiritual slumber upon many, today as they walk in false security. What is coming will be impossible for those who are not embracing the crucified life (lamps full of oil), now. There is no rapture coming to save you from great tribulation.

Matt 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Matt 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Matt 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Matt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Matt 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Matt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matt 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

They might have been partially fulfilled in type, but the ultimate prophetic fulfillment HAS NOT been fulfilled. Just like Constantine, Dometian, the early popes, etc. were "antichrists" in type, but not the ultimate endtime fulfillment of "The son of perdition". That's still to come. I believe that will be the Islamic "Mahdi" & the "False Prophet" will be the Islamic "Isa Al Masih" (the Jesus imposter).

But if, in preterism, we think all this was fulfilled completely in 70AD, then it can't get any worse than that, right? An isolated attack on one land (Israel) that wipes out one small area & thousands of people. That pales in comparison to something that can affect literally "the whole world" at the end.

If you doubt that interpretation, which you are free to obviously, I would encourage you to read "The Islamic Antichrist" by Joel Richardson. Shows the "anti-parallel" Islamic end times eschatology (from the Koran, Hadiths, etc.) & how they mirror anti-thetically the Biblical End Times Prophecies & literally fit like a glove. I always wondered if this was the case, & then seeing Joel's case laid out from their own texts (like Satan doesn't know the Bible too, but he is still bound by it) left my fully convinced of what I already had a strong sense about being the case possibly.

Dear sister, thank you for your quotes, there is much to be learned from every century from Gods saints. A clear reading of the Scriptures leaves us with little doubt as to what lies ahead of us. I thank the Lord Jesus Himself that He answered very straight forwardly as to what will be the signs of the end times. Many men try to place pre-conceived grids over the Scriptures to make it say something that their own minds have conceived but context rules the day in Matthew 24 and all Scriptures..................bro Frank

Todd, with all due respect, the notion that these passages were fulfilled with the martyrdom of the Disciples is quite demonstrably preposterous.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (Mat 24:5-9)

Are you seriously suggesting that prior to the death of the Disciples that kingdom rose against kingdom and nation rose against nation and there were famines and pestilences and earthquakes and they were only the beginning of sorrows. You are seriously saying that all those things came to pass and that these very disciples were themselves hated by all nations, all nations brother, before they were martyred?? This to me is one pretext too far even for those who have a penchant for them.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (Mat 24:21-23)

So brother Todd, it is your assertion that this great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be occurred sometime in the first century? We know that around 1 million Jewish people were killed around 70ad. As horrific as this was, it pales in comparison to what happened in the 20th Century yet Jesus clearly states that the great tribulation to come would be the worse tribulation the world has ever or will ever see and that unless God Himself intervened there should be no flesh left at all??? Did the conquest of 70ad threaten to kill everyone in the world?

It is time to get back to a plain reading of the Scriptures ............bro Frank

Is great tribulation quantitatively worse or qualitatively worse than the dark ages, during the 7 centuries of inquisition?

Must be quantitatively, although estimates have reached 50 million saints slaughtered during those 700 years. The RCC says only about 1500. Unless they are going to think up some weird high tech torture you really can't get much worse than the inquisition implements.

I believe we have had great tribulation in every century though not worldwide. Who is going to argue with someone from that time period that their tribulation wasn't great? So, great tribulation as opposed to not so great tribulation has happened to many others, but now it may be our time.

So, I think what everyone is waiting for is for every single country in the world to turn against the Church of the Living God with hatred. Am I understanding everyone correctly?

At least that is how I think most people in SI are interpreting Matthew 24, " hated by all nations"

Julius, we know that our Lord speaks infallibly. He said all nations. This is plain grammatical language and the context supports the plain meaning of " all nations." This reminds me a wee bit of those who perform verbal gymnastics to prove that when God says in His word that He so loved the world, the the word world does not mean what it is commonly known to mean. We must beware of placing theological grids over the Scriptures, constructed by pre-conceived notions, in order to " force," it to mean what we want it to mean when it plainly and clearly says something entirely different.

Lets suppose there were 50 million killed over 7 or even 15 centuries. Yet in the last century there were , conservatively, 80 million killed out of a population of 2.3 billion, about 3%. Now the Scriptures says in Matt 24 that it takes an intervention by God Himself in the great tribulation to stop all flesh being killed for the sake of the elect. And it further says that there has never been or ever will be anything like it such is the horror that is unleashed in the earth. The context and the language of Matt 24 is plain. What is complicated is the ism's that emerge from the minds of men............bro Frank

Hi Frank,

I am just trying to stimulate a little bit of thought (mostly my own). Surely, we as Christians should be the most open of all people to talk about the scriptures. I certainly don't want to argue about them. I appreciate your thoughts and I would agree with you that ALL means ALL.

I have another question for you or anyone who would like to weigh in. Do you think that everything in Matthew 24 is supposed to happen at the same time, meaning in the same generation, presumably the last one (of course, the present generation never knows what the last generation is)? I take it you would say yes, but don't want to put any words in your mouth.

Also, do you think anything in Matthew 24 happened in previous centuries? Again, I would think you would say yes, just not all at the same time.

So, one of the things we can count on as a sign that Christ is coming in whatever that generation is, is that ALL Nations will hate Christians. That is kind of a moving target as nations go away and then are created (remember the break up of the Soviet Union?). But, I certainly think that if 95% of nations have extreme hatred towards Christians that we are certainly pretty close.

In reading Mt 24, the beginning of sorrows could have started shortly after the Church was birthed. As you can see, only a few things had to happen to mark the beginning of sorrows. There were definitely wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes back then.

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

In this verse everything was fulfilled many times over through the centuries except the ALL nations, part.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Again, all these things have happened through the centuries. Enduring to the end, I take to mean enduring to the end of our individual lives.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is a very interesting verse: Lots of different ideas that people have on this one especially since the "holy place" or "temple" today is the Church of Jesus Christ. And there is great mixture in the "temple" today and the Lord is calling people out of Babylon, but again, this has been the plight of the Church since the 1st century and Jesus has been calling them out of Babylon since the book of Revelation was penned.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

These verses could be dealing with the coming annihilation of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

And then, a very curious verse follows, immediately and many think the Lord is skipping all the way to the very end.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

Skipping back to Matthew 24:9
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

To tell you the truth, I am not sure this means all physical nations, since "nations" is also referred to in the scriptures as the powers of darkness. And the powers of darkness have always hated the people of God. Christians that think ALL Nations will hate Christians have to know that what they are saying is the ALL the people in ALL the nations will hate Christians. Do you think that or do you just think ALL governments in ALL nations will hate Christians. What does ALL Nations mean to you? Satan has dominions (lordships) and principalities (rulerships, princes) and Powers (authorities). The powers of darkness are referred to as "Rulers of Darkness of this World), Spiritual Wickedness in High Places. They control the nations and by extension and association are the "Nations", especially since the spirit of Satan works in ALL of the children of disobedience.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the DRAGON which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And IT WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The powers of the darkness are the true rulers and princes of this world that deliver up the Saints to death.

Anyway, I have never read this anywhere, although it might exist, these are my thoughts and I see evidence of this interpretation in every century since the Church was birthed. The Devil has been making war with the Saints of God since the Church was birthed and has been given power since then over all kindreds and tongues and nations because he has deceived the whole world and been delivering up the saints of God to death, all over the world for centuries. And all the "nations" (powers and principalities) of Satan hate the people of God with the most intense hatred.

I'm just being honest with my post here, because none of the other interpretations today, work for me (witness to me in my spirit). There are too many disconnects and inconsistencies.

Not saying I am right. I really don't know if God is referring to ALL people everywhere who are not saved will hate Christians, or we will be hated by the powers of darkness. Because, Jesus gave the dragon the power over the saints, the dragon being the devil.

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I am still working through a lot of this and am open to changing my mind.

Appreciate your thoughts on any of this if you are so inclined.

Hi Julias, I appreciate the tenor of your questions and so let me tackle a couple of the issues you have raised, you write............

In this verse everything was fulfilled many times over through the centuries except the ALL nations, part.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Again, all these things have happened through the centuries. Enduring to the end, I take to mean enduring to the end of our individual lives.

I would put it to you and can state as someone who has extensively studied history and the history of the Church that there has never been a time when saints were hated by all nations. I would reject your possible assertion that " nations," means the power of darkness. You say that the Scriptures refer to nations as the power of darkness, can you give us a reference?

You quote Matt 24:16-20 and state that this could refer to the destruction of Jerusalem, yes if you leave out verse 21, but it is not left out is it brother, its the next sentence. We dont get to take a text out of context do we? Otherwise we would be left with a pre-text.

I like your question about the " Holy Place." Interesting that the Scriptures do not use the word temple, so what can the holy place be. This phrase consists of two words, holy and place. The first is easy and it means what you might think it means. Now the word for place is topos which means .........top'-os
Apparently a primary word; a spot (generally in space, but limited by occupancy; whereas G5561 is a larger but particular locality), that is, location (as a position, home, tract, etc.); figuratively condition, opportunity; specifically a scabbard: - coast, licence, place, X plain, quarter, + rock, room, where.

You see, its a location rather than a structure. A holy place. Now, the temple was built upon a holy place, the threshing floor of Araunah. A place marked by mercy and an altar built upon that place. The temple would be built here but it was the place itself that carries the significance. So therefore, I believe that the place itself, the location is " the holy place." Right now it is the Dome of the Rock. Very possibly the headquarters of a great whore church to come that will encompass the major religions of the world. Islam, Judaism and Christianity would all consider this one of the most if not the most sensitive religious sites in the world. I believe when we see the representatives of all these religions sit down and unite in this place, then the great whore church is born which will unite the world. This is the great defilement to come I believe, the major religion of the world worshiping as one. Every true saint will reject this and there shall be no middle ground. Just my thoughts on what the " holy place," means...........bro Frank

Good points, Savannah especially about the first 3 verses of Matthew 24 missing from the discussion.

Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matt 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, SEE YE NOT ALL THESE THINGS? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

So, Jesus is setting the context of His message.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Isn't it interesting that they wanted to know the sign of His coming and He tells them to endure until the end of their lives.
Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

If you think about it, His first coming was physical but His second coming is spriritual to each one of us. So, maybe the brothers mean His 3rd coming or at the least, His 2nd physical coming. He came once and died and resurrected. He came a 2nd time into each of our lives. But, why does a spiritual King of a spiritual Kingdom, come again physically?

The disciples are probably wondering what His coming means and yet He explained it in the book of John.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming), and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

What is He talking about? The 2nd coming? Indeed, He is talking about coming again...to you, personally. Let's see if that is true.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

You don't have to be a Preterist to know Jesus came once and died and resurrected and came again according to John 14, into our hearts.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

And where is Jesus Christ? Because, you are there with Him right now. He came into your heart, you received Him and He received you and you are seated in heavenly places with Christ.

Good article Mike, I enjoyed it, apart from the stigmata :) (Ex Catholic) I believe the marks of Christ that Paul bore would be the scars on his back from the many scourgings he received. Catholic history on "saints," is at best, dubious, in my opinion.................bro Frank

Here are the first three verses of Matt 24 lest there be any mystery as to why I left it out, there is not........

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Mat 24:1-3)

The apostles ask two questions and Jesus answers them directly.
1.Tell us when these things shall be? (This question relates to Matt 23)
2.What shall be the sign of your coming and the end of the world.

Jesus had already answered question one on Matt 23 and He concludes it in the first two verses , He then goes on to answer question two in Matt 24........bro Frank

Hi Savannah, lets look at the what the Scripture says in context as opposed to just one text..........

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:14-21)

As Julias and myself have testified, there have been much greater tribulations since then. God did not have to intervene so as to save " all flesh." The destruction of Jerusalem was spoken of in Matt 23, the disciples wanted to know what the sings of the end of the world would be and the Lord's return. It is evident that this was not the end of the world nor what Jesus refers to in Matt 24 nor did Jesus return as I am sure you will agree...........bro Frank

Actually some preterists go so far as to say Jesus did return in 70 AD.

TMK,
I get it and I understand why the papacy would be believed to be "THE antichrist" in some respects, I do. However, I really can't recommend Joel's book enough on "The Islamic Antichrist". It's not full of opinions, but of actual quotes & passages from Islamic eschatology compared to Biblical
Eschatology. Definitely worth giving a read friend. Then, after you've read it, I'd be very curious what your thoughts were.
God Bless,
Jeff

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/3/6 1:10:04

Actually some preterists go so far as to say Jesus did return in 70 AD.

What reason do they give? What would be Jesus' purpose for coming back physically in 70ad?

2nd Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God.......

The problem with presterism, partial or otherwise, is that there is a rejection of the inspiration of Scripture. There is a rejection of the ongoing reality of the Holy Spirit. There is a rejection of the Holy Spirit to breathe out scripture to every generation. There is a rejection to breathe out the scripture the word becomes real to every generation that reads or hears the scripture.

To the preaterist everything is reduced to a historical events in times past. With no relevance of the Scriptures being made real to one's heart today.

Matthew 24 and thr parallel accounts of mark 13 and Luke 21 have always been understood to be signs that apply to every age so that people will hope and see and long for the coming of Jesus Christ.

The theologian who rejects this and reduces it to historical events in the past is rejecting the ongoing work and reality of the Holy Spiritwriting His word to every generation in every age up on the human heart.

Respectfully brothers, those who hold to preaterist position, you're not allowing for the work of the Holy Spirit to apply the word in one's heart.

Yes there was a historical events that happened in 70 AD. But Jesus also indicated that there would be an ongoing reality of the signs that would be for all generations that would culminate in the return of Jesus Himself.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Matthew 24:29'31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days, THE SON WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE IT'S LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And he will send His angels with a GREAT TRUMPHET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His ekect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

If this took place in 70 AD. Then we are in trouble.

Brother Blaine

.......Caps are Old Testament quotations as taken out of the New American Standard Udated Translation..

Many modern evangelicals gladly quote: Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a testimony to all nations; and then shall the end come.

But do not put it in context with the prior verses:

8 But all these things are the beginning of birth pains. 9 Then they will deliver you up to oppression, and will kill you. You will be hated by all of the nations for my name’s sake. 10 Then many will stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.

Luke 21 is good to read with Matthew 24 also:

5 As some were talking about the temple and how it was decorated with beautiful stones and gifts, he said, 6 "As for these things which you see, the days will come, in which there will not be left here one stone on another that will not be thrown down.”

7 They asked him, "Teacher, so when will these things be? What is the sign that these things are about to happen?”

8 He said, "Watch out that you don’t get led astray, for many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he[b],’ and, ‘The time is at hand.’ Therefore don’t follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and disturbances, don’t be terrified, for these things must happen first, but the end won’t come immediately.”

10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines, and plagues in various places. There will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you up to synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name’s sake. 13 It will turn out as a testimony for you. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to withstand or to contradict. 16 You will be handed over even by parents, brothers, relatives, and friends. They will cause some of you to be put to death. 17 You will be hated by all men for my name’s sake. 18 And not a hair of your head will perish.

19 "By your endurance you will win your lives.

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let those who are in the middle of her depart. Let those who are in the country not enter therein. 22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who nurse infants in those days! For there will be great distress in the land, and wrath to this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and on the earth anxiety of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the waves; 26 men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But when these things begin to happen, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is near.”

29 He told them a parable. "See the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see it and know by your own selves that the summer is already near. 31 Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God’s Kingdom is near. 32 Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things are accomplished. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.

34 "So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

David quotes this Scripture..........

Romans 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (18) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I would say amen to that of course. Preterists represent a tiny percentage of Christendom but they are entitled to their views. They remind me of the higher critics of the late 19th century.

Jasmine, in another post, brings up the issue of peace and I would applaud that reminder. Often times when discussing issues of end times you can be accused of being a doom or gloomer or " obsessed," with things to come and so on and I am sure there are folks like that.

Yet, the great hope of Christianity through-out the ages was the return of Jesus. It has been proven by history that persecution only makes us stronger. Now the faint of heart amongst us often want to cry " oh dont speak of these things for it disturbs our peace." With all due respect, that is a personal spiritual issue if your peace is disturbed at the prospect of coming persecution. Now is the time to deal with that.

Jesus took great lengths to prepare his disciples for what was to come upon Him and them soon. Peter had a real problem with that and Jesus told him to " get behind me Satan." Jesus grappled with the prospect of what was to come, in the garden of Gethsemane, and we see that He established His own peace by bowing to the will of God. This is where our peace lies, bowing to the will of God and walking in that sure knowledge.

We are told by Scripture to be anxious for nothing but in everything, by prayer and supplication and thanksgiving to make our requests known to God and the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard our hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. What a wonderful promise. Not that we would be problem free or trial free or persecution free, but that we could have perfect peace, where? In the very midst of the storm, this is the supernatural peace of God that surpasses all understanding and has an enormous impact on the world and on our oppressors..................Bro Frank

I thought the great hope of Christianity is the new birth, the indwelling Christ, the "Hope of Israel", which is a spiritual king, a spiritual kingdom and that right now, those who are in Christ have eternal life and reign as kings and priests, seated with Christ in heavenly places. Is this not so?

Acts 28:20
For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The Hope of Israel is Christ, NOW.

Not Christ in the future.

I would like to know who changed the "Blessed Hope" of Jesus now, to Jesus someday in the future. That would be an interesting study.

I'm going to post another thread that speaks to some of the discussion here too. It's the appendix to Joel Richardson's l"The Islamic Antichrist" book entitled, "Embracing Biblical Eschatology", that answers the questions & objections to such study & why it matters. Will post right now...
In Him,
Jeff

I think this answer by Julius is a great examaple of the Scripture David quoted about contention.

"I thought the great hope of Christianity is the new birth, the indwelling Christ, the "Hope of Israel", which is a spiritual king, a spiritual kingdom and that right now, those who are in Christ have eternal life and reign as kings and priests, seated with Christ in heavenly places. Is this not so? Acts 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
The Hope of Israel is Christ, NOW.
Not Christ in the future. I would like to know who changed the "Blessed Hope" of Jesus now, to Jesus someday in the future. That would be an interesting study."

Like so many of this brothers answers, it just continually promotes contention and of course hijacks so many of the threads by focusing on contention rather than on the thread itself. Taking one sentence and trying to twist it into something it is not, and worse, something that denies our present hope and joy in Christ Himself, expressed in so many threads but ignored by Julias for there is no contention there, is simply disingenuous.

The return of Jesus is the blessed hope of the saints. Its not all of the hope, yet it certainly is a blessed hope. Lets try and think the best of each other Julias. God bless you brother. Let us agree to disagree on preterism. I respect you and Savannah's rights to your views, I disagree with them. Not sure what the purpose of hanging in on a thread that you totally disagree with other than to prove yourself right. Sometimes it is better just to ignore a thread you dont agree with.........bro Frank

Julius,
While the New Birth was certainly the better covenant that the OT prophets/saints looked forward to, & is the place where New Life in Christ starts for us, without which all else is just meaningless talk, there is great and awesome longing for that day on which Christ returns! All creation "groans" Ina notification of when He returns & FULLY sets up His kingdom on the earth FOREVER!
So I'm not minimizing the New Birth & work of Christ in our hearts NOW, but I am also saying "the great & terrible day of the Lord" was & always has been the longing of the church of Jesus Christ! That includes the early church (before & after 70 AD - FYI). The Return of Christ is the great longing of His people. If/when that yearning & expectation is lost among the church, there is great loss & Biblical/spiritual imbalance. And men have created whole theological, & even eschatological, constructs that basically say we aren't really looking forward to ANYTHING, but just what is NOW ONLY. This is grievous error & imbalance. We can't NEGLECT what is now & not occupy till He comes, but the whole point is WHEN HE COMES that we have been found faithful & are rewarded eternally in the coming Eternal kingdom He establishes FREE OF SIN & remade righteous & pure for all eternity. All that's wrong will be made right. The book of Revelation explains this clearly as do many other passages. The early church knew this & lived with this reality on their hearts, the church during the inquisition did, during the dark ages, as well as the church of last century & the church around the world under the current conditions. The Blessed hope we long for now as saved believers is not just strength to endure now (though that's part of it), but a longing & groaning for when He returns & establishes His eternal kingdom, separated the sheep & goats, wheat & tares, & He wipes away every tear & there is no more death or sorrow

Jeff

The future has already occurred and therefore we need to focus on the present.
However the present is now past also and therefore we must look to the days of future past. The last days are now behind us and we must now focus on what already happened so we can be prepared for what came before these current times.

Whoah, not going to lie - that made my head spin! 😊 Had to read that a couple times to follow. Lol. Sure hope that was irony/satire.

Jeff

Yes I was sort of trying to explain the framework for the pretorist/secessionist framework of this theological belief system.
Once we understand where they are coming from when can better understand where they are going to or perhaps better stated where they have been.

Wow!!! Lol. So that is what praeterism is :-)
Thanks a lot bro:) I think you just described all theological systems....... Chuckle :-)

Bear

Blaine

It must of taken years of listening to his favourite Bible interpreters to gather
this deep well of understanding that he so humbly possesses.

Notdarkyet writes..........

"The future has already occurred and therefore we need to focus on the present. However the present is now past also and therefore we must look to the days of future past. The last days are now behind us and we must now focus on what already happened so we can be prepared for what came before these current times."

Love it brother, made me laugh out loud...........bro Frank

The guy makes a good point. Could not say it better myself.

PP,

Thanks for recommending Phil's other book, "The Hope of Israel, What is it?"

I thoroughly enjoyed it and would give a review but don't think it is a good environment at this point in time in SI to give one. I will just say it is one of the best books I have read on the subject. I will read this other one now.

Juilius21 wrote:

"Thanks for recommending Phil's other book, "The Hope of Israel, What is it?""

Brother NDY wrote the synopsis of the book already

"The future has already occurred and therefore we need to focus on the present. However the present is now past also and therefore we must look to the days of future past. The last days are now behind us and we must now focus on what already happened so we can be prepared for what came before these current times."

Hi Mike, you write..............

"I would like someone to explain this scripture to me:

"Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10).

Frank, what you have laid out in these posts is that overcomers or the remnant will die as martyrs in the Great Tribulation. The scripture that I quoted indicates just the opposite, that God will keep those from the hour of trial that have kept the Word of His patience."

I would like to respectfully disagree with your last statement that this Scripture indicates just the opposite opposite of what I have been saying. Consider Matthew Henry's commentary on this............

"Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation. By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in times of persecution."

Can you see what he is saying bro Mike? This was written to the church of Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love to whom Jesus seems to have nothing against, in fact He says that they have, set before them, an open door which no man can shut! Praise the Lord, an open door to the throne room of heaven, walking in His presence, glory to God.

Now consider the word " keep." It could be more rightfully interpreted as " guard." Consider the Greek meaning of this word...........tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

This backs up what Henry was saying. Imagine if you will the three Hebrew children. Did the Lord not keep them from the fire right in the midst of the fire? Praise Jesus. And what a testimony, what a witness. God did not keep them from the fire itself, He preserved them in the midst of it. Those who love the Lord and who move and have their being in Him are rightly kept/guarded from the worries and the anxieties that assail and assault the souls of those whose eyes are not fixed on Him..................bro Frank

Hi PP, I am going to have to decline your invitation to read the brothers book, time just does not permit it. All I will say is that as for myself, I am not a novice in the matters of dispensationalism or preterism. I actually attended a Dispensational College and so learned from the inside so to speak. So I was compelled to read countless books on the subject as required reading. Does that make sense? I know that this brother was a lawyer who argued before the Supreme court so he was a very intelligent man. Maybe you could start a thread on the subject, of course it would be a very different thread than this.............bro Frank

Ok, I appreciate the warning.

I wish I would have read his other book,35+ years ago, but who knows if I would have even been open to it? I went to a charismatic, dispensational Bible college.

I've had to unlearn some things.

Hi PP, your gonna hate this answer but I studied another book and found the answers there with the help of someone who is indispensable to me.............bro Frank

I believe Philip Mauro is also a "KJV ONLY" guy too. Although I can agree & disagree with different people on separate issues, most of the "KJV ONLY" carries a certain way of looking at/evaluating/studying matters. Just a personal experiential observation (not trying to start an argument or new thread on "KJV ONLy" - please no! 😳)

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/3/6 20:06:09

I believe Philip Mauro is also a "KJV ONLY" guy too. Although I can agree & disagree with different people on separate issues, most of the "KJV ONLY" carries a certain way of looking at/evaluating/studying matters. Just a personal experiential observation (not trying to start an argument or new thread on "KJV ONLy" - please no! 😳)

I don't know if that is true, it could be but it is too bad you had to bring that up the way you did because it plants into people's minds that it is not worth their time and something is invariably wrong with the brother's understanding because he may prefer the KJV. Maybe you can clarify and let everyone know what you really meant to say. Did you mean to say his book will be flawed and unbalanced because he uses the KJV? That would indict many good brothers with great teachings that have been helpful to the Church. Yes, let's not talk about bible versions, but maybe you can clear up what you meant.

Personally, when it comes to studying the word and cross referencing verses, I prefer the KJV, too.

No, not "preferring the KJV", but "KJV ONLY".

Saying "I prefer KJV" = no problem

Saying "I prefer KJV, so you should too" = problem

Saying "THE ONLY version God approves is KJV" = HUGE PROBLEM.

Anyways, sorry, I wasn't trying to "indict him". I don't buy the preterist argument anyways. What I'm saying is that in my experience (& other brethren I fellowship have shared the same - even some that lean at least partial preterist & amillineul 😊) is that "KJV ONLY" people that make that a big deal tend to carry something extra with them. There's a legalistic, "see it my way or else your in sin" flare that comes with "KJV ONLY" crowds (as opposed to "KJV Preference for myself" crowds, or anyone else).

Sorry, not trying to dog the guy - just an honest observation.

Brothers I just listened to 1st and 2nd Thessalonians this morning. How one can listen to these letters and reason that Jesus returned in 70 AD is beyond comprehension.

If we would put ourselves in a spirit of humility and go back and listen to these letters as they were probably read too people that were uneducated. But who had the Spirit of God. We would see that their hope was in a future return of Jesus.

The Thessalonians believers had the Blessed Hope of Jesus in their heart. But they also saw the blessed hope in a future return of Jesus.

I believe there are those in this forum who are arguing against the future return of Jesus. That are trying so hard to convince us that he already returned in 70 AD.

As I previously posted in the passages out of Matthew. If He has already come in power and glory. Then we are in deep trouble.

Simply my thoughts.

Brother Blaine

I guess I'm a bit confused Bear, who is saying Jesus Christ returned physically in 70AD?

Julius those who argue that "every word" of Jesus was fulfilled in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. They argue that Matthew 24:4-28 was fulfilled in 70 AD. If they are going to be consistent in their argument. Then they would have to argue that Matthew 24:29-31 has occurred. This is the describing of the Son of Man appearing in the clouds with great power and glory. Describing Him as gathering his elect from the four winds of the earth.

I respectfully ask the praeterist when was Matthew 24:29-31 fulfilled??? For if by your argument you would say Christ has returned. Then we are in deep trouble.

Brother Blaine

If He returned, we should know about it and for what purpose did He return, is also a good question. But, I don't think that has anything to do with Phil's books. I'm going to read them and will let you know.

TMK,
Well then that's Just like Revelation 1 too I suppose?

7Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Sounds to me like a literal coming in the clouds if "every eye will see him..AND ALSO those who pierced him...and ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH will wail on account of him..."?

The Full preterist believes not only did ALL of Matthew 24 occur in 70 AD, but all of Revelation did too. And "symbolize away" everything Jesus & the apostles prophesied.

I believe some of Matthew 24 occurred "IN TYPE" in 70AD, but the final fulfillment is still to come. What was done in Israel in form in 70 AD will be done in full form on a much grander level in the whole earth. So I'm not arguing with the preterist that 70 AD was significant. I believe that It was. My contention is that only 70 AD is ALL OF what ALL the NT prophecies from Jesus, the apostles & prophets spoke of AT THE END.

Matthew 24:29-31

But immediately after the tribulation of those days, THE SUN WIll BE DARKEND, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the sign the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPHET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Todd respecyfully I am not insisting that all preaterists believe anything. This is the Son of Himself Himself speaking. This is Jesus. He's using the prophetic language of the Old Testament to describe his literal coming in the future. The caps above indicate the quotations of Old Testament prophecy that Jesus will fulfill.

Isaiah prophesied in the shadow of the cross. We believe those saints in the Old Testament were in the shadow of the New Covenant. What is recorded above is Jesus Himself, the ultimate expression of God's Word according to Hebrews 1 describing how He will return to earth. That is a future coming.

The Gospels and consequently the letters of the Apostles pointed to a literal return of Jesus in the future. To argue the above text took place in 70 AD is a distortion of Scripture.

Brother, respectfully, if Jesus meant that his return would only be for Jerusalem in 70 AD. He would have made it known to His disciples. The passage above and the parallel account in Mark 13 is an answer to the disciples question quewstion found below.

Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?

The disciples are clearly asking when is Jesus going to come back. When is he going to come back in the future. I find it hard to believe their praetetist would say that the end of the age came about and 70 AD. Can I ask what on earth are we living in now?

Paul always described in his letters this present age and the age to come. The age to come meaninh that there would be the kingdom of Jesus it is consummated state.

I doubt very seriously if we are living in the consummate state of the kingdom of God. Or one can say that we are living in the millennium.

Frankly and I say this with respect. It takes far more faith to believe that Matthew 24 happened in 70 AD. Then to believe that Jesus will soon return. And he will establish His kingdom on earth.

In my simple way of seeing the New Testament. Praetrtism has no scriptural warrant. And to try to establish the scriptural warrant for praeterism one must develop a complicated theology found only for the intellectual elite.

The above reminds me so much of the Presbyterians and the Reformed folks who try to defend infant baptism. Infant baptism is not taught in the New Testament. Yet they must develop a complicated theology to justify it.

I find, with amusement, that some of the most bizarre things taught as Christian doctrine must have the most complicated theology to defend it.

For me, better to believe in the simplicity of the Lord Jesus Christ and His words.

My thoughts respectively posted.

Brother Blaine

Julias writes............

"If He returned, we should know about it and for what purpose did He return, is also a good question."

Now that is some zen kinda answer :) No idea what that means.

TMK writes..............."If not, why do you insist on making the point that all preterists believe that the Mt 24 reference to the Lord coming on a cloud in judgment means a literal second coming? It is apocalyptic language."

A plain reading of the Scripture below shows something very different from what Todd is saying. This is what happens when you try to squeeze and bend Scripture into your own particular doctrine, it just does not work.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Mat 24:30-31)

Hi PP, you write........

"No one including Philip Mauro was/is promoting full preterism."

But they do react to general statements that are empirically not true such as ............

"That being said, people seem to get all panicky when it is pointed out to them that Mt 24 was fulfilled in 70ad."

Since Jesus did not return then this is clearly not a true statement even if one were to assume that Jesus was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in Matt 24, which I do not believe He was.

Here is an experiment for those who would care to. When you study the Bible in most seminaries, they will talk about the possibility of bad chapter breaks. I personally believe the chapter break between 23 and 24 is not a very good one. Remember, there is not chapter breaks or verse numbers in the original, we added them later for easier study. So.....try reading Matthew 23 all the way through to Matt 24:2 and imagine that was the chapter break with the 24th Chapter starting at verse three. It may or may not convince or preterist friends of anything but it is certainly interesting................bro Frank

I am not at all a preterist, but ultimately a futurist, but I do think it has "dual fulfillment". 70 AD was a "mini-fulfillment" or even "type" if you will of what is ultimately coming at the real end (before Christ returns to judge & set up His eternal kingdom once & forevermore!

But this is a really right in line with many other scriptural prophetic texts even going back to the Old Testament and things that are written in Isaiah and the other benefit but this is a really right in line with many other scriptural prophetic texts even going back to the old testament and things that are written in Isaiah and the other prophets. They often saw a literal physical fulfillment of their words in their day (in ancient Israel, ancient Egypt, etc.) and some of them you can see a "greater fulfillment" of these things in Christ's first coming (at some point between His coming, his ascension, 70 AD, etc.), but we see the ULTIMATE apocalyptic fulfillment at the end of the age when Christ returns to set up his kingdom Judge the world in righteousness and do away with death send sickness and sorrow once and for all.

by TMK on 2016/3/7 8:37:52

Hey Bear, consider this:

Isaiah 19:1 "The burden against Egypt.Behold, the Lord rides on a swift cloud,And will come into Egypt;The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence,And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst."

Query: did Jesus literally descend on Egypt? Was that an "early coming" of Jesus to the earth?

If not, why do you insist on making the point that all preterists believe that the Mt 24 reference to the Lord coming on a cloud in judgment means a literal second coming? It is apocalyptic language.

I do believe that there is a yet future literal 2nd coming of Jesus. But Mt 24 is talking about his coming in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Just catching up and have not read everything but yes this is apocalyptic language. Cloud is symbolic for Holy Spirit in many cases. The Lord convicts and judges by His Spirit.

For those who think he is coming back physically, what is the purpose of a physical return? He already fulfilled that purpose when He came as the sacrificial Lamb of God.

Hi Todd, if you can, do me a favor and simply read Matt 23 where the Lord talks about the Pharisees and the scribes, the leaders of Jerusalem and the system of power that has killed the prophets in days gone by and so on and He finishes off with this...........

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Mat 23:33-39)

This is undoubtedly speaking to what is to befall Jerusalem. And even into verses 1-2 of Matt 24. Now as you know, the Disciples come to Him and ask Him specifically what will be the signs of His coming , and, wait for it Todd....

"and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? "

Could it be any clearer Todd? No really, could it be? He is asked what the signs of His second coming will be ( unless you believe in multiple comings and somehow try to spiritualize the plain spoken language of " the end of the world.") and of the end of the world to which He then goes on and describes the signs of His coming and of the the end of the world in very unambiguous plain spoken language. There were no dragons rising from glassy seas and so on, just plain old language..............bro Frank

RE: ///"I agree that full preterists believe that the 2nd coming occurred in 70 AD. I think they are wackos."///

No one including Philip Mauro was/is promoting full preterism.

I Believe everyone is in agreement that : "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." is a future event.

As long as we are taking things physically, what is left to come back to when this happens. Has anyone answered this?

Julius I think if you read 2nd Peter chapter 3 you will get the answer to your question. Time does not permit me to post the whole chapter up here. But for you and others who want to know what jesus is coming back for, read 2bd Peter 3.

Bottom line is Jesus is coming back to create a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwelks. 2 Peter 3:11-14 spells this out pretty clearly.

Also 2nd Peter 3:3-9 should serve as a warning to those who hold to a praeterist positiom. Peter warns that in the last days there will be mockers and scoffers who will come saying where is the promise of His coming.......

It seems that there are those who hold to the previous position that mock the idea of a second coming of Jesus Christ. Particularly a literal physical return of Jesus.

My thoughts respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Frank I looked at the chapter divisions in Matthew 23 and 24 you mentioned. Very interesting brother. It would seem that the chapter break should occur around Matthew 24:2. With Matthew 24 3 picking up a new thought.

Matthew 24 1 through 2 do speak of the destruction of the temple which did occur in 70 AD. But then Matthew 24 3 and I was say through the end of Matthew 25 is speaking of the future return of Jesus.

Brother how I wish chapter divisions were not in the Bible.

My thoughts respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

To my preaterist bretbren. Is Matthew 24:29-31 the same event as the day of the Lord which Paul and Peter make reference to? Answer that question and a lot of confusion might be cleared up.

Respectfully posted and asked.

Brother Blaine

by bearmaster on 2016/3/7 14:47:25

Julius I think if you read 2nd Peter chapter 3 you will get the answer to your question. Time does not permit me to post the whole chapter up here. But for you and others who want to know what jesus is coming back for, read 2bd Peter 3.

Bottom line is Jesus is coming back to create a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwelks. 2 Peter 3:11-14 spells this out pretty clearly.

Also 2nd Peter 3:3-9 should serve as a warning to those who hold to a praeterist positiom. Peter warns that in the last days there will be mockers and scoffers who will come saying where is the promise of His coming.......

It seems that there are those who hold to the previous position that mock the idea of a second coming of Jesus Christ. Particularly a literal physical return of Jesus.

My thoughts respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Dear brother, Blaine,

I don't mock the promise of His coming, I just think it is literally a spiritual event.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Hi Todd,

I am not a dispensationalist, never have been. I am glad you left that behind kicking, screaming or otherwise :)

Julias writes............

'I just think it is literally a spiritual event."

Hmmm, oxymorons abound. Clever puns do not a truth make :)............bro Frank

Bear writes............

"Frank I looked at the chapter divisions in Matthew 23 and 24 you mentioned. Very interesting brother. It would seem that the chapter break should occur around Matthew 24:2. With Matthew 24 3 picking up a new thought."

You see brother, that is it right there, two different subjects in two chapters. The confusion caused by preterism and other isms of men is that they take verses out of the context of the chapter. I challenge anyone reading this, sit down, read through the two chapters in one sitting and see if the truth does not clearly and plainly jump out at you. Two different subjects, two wonderful complete answers given by Jesus and that's all she wrote as they say :).........bro Frank

Yeah, the preterist argument of pinning anyone who isn't a preterist as a "dispensationalist" gets old. Real old.

Tell my brother Julius and my praeterist brethren. A question.

Where the post resurrection appearances of Jesus physical or spiritual???

Respectfully asked.

Brother Blaine

by bearmaster on 2016/3/7 19:39:12

Tell my brother Julius and my praeterist brethren. A question.

Where the post resurrection appearances of Jesus physical or spiritual???

Respectfully asked.

Brother Blaine

Hey Bear,

I accept as literally true that Jesus appeared in a spiritual body and everyone was able to see Him. His post-resurrection body was spiritual, though not yet glorified until after His ascension.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body...

Bear, did the Jews understand the temple in the following passage to be taken literal?
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19). T

Yes, they did. They did not know that Christ was speaking of His body.

"But He spake of the Temple of His Body."

Spiritual realities can be believed and taken quite literally. There are literal angels an demons in the literal heavenlies, by the way. There is a literal Satan, and literal Zion above, Heavenly Jerusalem, which is the literal Church made up right now of physical and spiritual saints. Can you see how spiritual realities can be quite literal? Literal is not confined only to physical or natural realities but also to spiritual realities.

If you are having a difficult time understanding how something spiritual can be literal, thinking that only something physical or natural can be literal, please read the following. I think it will help define these terms properly from a biblical viewpoint.

The main purpose of the present chapter is to bring clearly to view the important truth that in Scripture the contrast is not between the spiritual and the literal, but between the spiritual and natural; for a passage of Scripture may refer, when taken "literally," either to "that which is natural" or to "that which is spiritual." In other words, the literal interpretation may call for a thing which exists in the realm of nature, or for the counterpart of that thing which exists in the realm of spiritual realities (1 Cor. 15:46). It is of the utmost importance that this be understood; for the advocates of modern dispensationalism have wrought confusion, and have succeeded in giving plausibility to many misinterpretations of Scripture, by first taking for granted (erroneously, as will be herein shown) that a "literal" interpretation necessarily calls for something material or natural, and by then insisting strenuously that all prophecies which refer to Israel, Jerusalem, Zion, etc., should be interpreted "literally." It will not be difficult to show that this is a thoroughly unsound principle of interpretation, that it is based upon a false premise, and that its application has made havoc of many prophecies.

For example, those expositors who think the Bible teaches us to expect hereafter a millennium of earthly bliss, a golden age of world-wide peace and plenty, during which the Jewish nation will be reconstituted and will have the place of headship over a world occupied by God-fearing and peace-loving Gentiles, base that expectation upon certain Old Testament prophecies which, they think, are to be fulfilled "literally"; and since they cannot possibly be fulfilled in that manner during this era of the Gospel, there must needs be an age to come of an entirely different character from this day of gospel salvation.

This argument, however, is utterly fallacious, because [it is] based upon a false premise. Those who make use of it take for granted that in order to interpret a prophecy "literally" its fulfillment must be located in the realm of nature, and not in the spiritual [eternal] realm. Thus they assume that the "literal" interpretation is in contrast with the "spiritual" interpretation thereof; and they denounce and repudiate what they refer to disparagingly as "the spiritualizing" of the prophecies.

Undoubtedly our natural bias is in favor of the so-called "literal" interpretation of the prophecies in question; for to the natural man the things that are seen are the real things; and to that view we are disposed to cling tenaciously, notwithstanding the plain teaching of the New Testament that the seen things are but the fleeting shadows of things unseen, the latter being the spiritual and eternal realities with which the promises of future blessing have mainly to do. For the New Testament Scriptures state, in most unambiguous language, that "the seed of Abraham," to whom "all the promises of God" belong, are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:7, 29; 2 Cor. 1:20). Further, in the New Testament it is plainly revealed that, even as "Abraham had two sons" (which might make it uncertain whether the descendants of Ishmael or those of Isaac were to inherit the promises) so likewise there is a natural "Israel," "Zion" and "Jerusalem" and also a spiritual counterpart of each; and that just as Ishmael preceded in time the true heir (though eventually he was to be "cast out" and not to be "heir with the son of the free woman") even so the natural Israel, Zion, and Jerusalem preceded the respective spiritual realities to which those names properly belong. For God's invariable order of procedure, in the working out of His eternal purposes, is "first - that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:46).

If, therefore, an O.T. prophecy of blessing, intended for the true Israel (that "holy nation" of 1 Pet. 2:9), be interpreted as applying to "Israel after the flesh," the interpretation is not "literal" (i.e., according to the letter) except in the sense in which "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor. 3:6); for obviously in this case the "literal" interpretation destroys the prophecy completely. And it is specially to be noted that, in the passage from which this Scripture is quoted, Paul is explaining the great differences between the Old Covenant (which was of the letter) and the New Covenant (of the Spirit); and, moreover, he is comparing the ministry of Moses, which had to do with things that are seen (an earthly sanctuary and its vessels of service, animal sacrifices, etc.), with the ministry of himself and others whom God had made "able ministers of the New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit." Also it should be noted that the apostle there speaks of the Old Covenant (under which promises were made to the natural Israel) as "that which is done away"; whereas the New Covenant is "that which remaineth," that is, abideth eternally (v. 11).

From this Scripture alone it is evident (and the same truth is set forth at greater length in Gal. 4:21-31 and Hebrews Chapters VIII-X) that all future promises of glory and blessing for Israel and Zion must belong to the true Israel and the heavenly Zion. And, in this very passage, we are admonished to "look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen" (4:18); which admonition, however, is habitually disregarded in the interpretation of prophecies relating to these very subjects.

We ask the reader specially to note that in the above quoted passage, the apostle speaks of the old covenant as "that which is done away" (v. 11), "that which is abolished" (v. 13). This shows that the old covenant, under which the earthly nation of Israel had been constituted, was already, in Paul's day, a thing of the past.

Evidently then our difficulty in understanding prophecies of the class referred to above is due to our lack of faith and our spiritual dullness. For, in respect to the things which are not seen, faith takes the place of sight; for faith has to so solely with things not visible to the natural eye; and hope likewise, for "hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24). Wherefore it is written that, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"; and "through faith we understand" (Heb. 11:1,3).

Hence, to understand the prophecies it is necessary, and vitally necessary, that we believe the revelations of the New Testament; that we accept as "literally" true that there is now, at this present time, a realm of spiritual realities, into which our risen Lord is actually entered, and we in Him; that "the substance of things hoped for" is there, not here; and specially that God's purposes concerning His City, Temple and People are being fulfilled at this very time, in that spiritual realm, though the natural eye cannot see what is going on there.

The writer of these lines can testify from experience that, by the simple process of believing what is written in the New Testament concerning the actual present existence, among the things not seen, of the true Zion, of the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem, of the holy nation which is a royal priesthood, and of other spiritual realities, the main difficulty in the understanding of the Old Testament prophecies which speak of a glorified state of the things named above, vanishes away.

Philip Mauro - The Hope of Israel, What Is It
On the Literal Interpretation of Prophecy ”“ Part 2 of ‘The Hope of Israel’
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/hope-of-israel-philip-mauro/

I think it is quite a testament to Phil Mauro that these respected Messianic brothers post his book on their site.

Hi Jeff,you write........

"Yeah, the preterist argument of pinning anyone who isn't a preterist as a "dispensationalist" gets old. Real old." Indeed Jeff, usually one ismmite ( I made that word up :) cant conceive that all are not part of some kind of ismmite :)

Indeed, there are some men, in my opinion, on this thread, who simply refuse to read both chapters in context and see the two issues Jesus was addressing. Each take one verse, with no context to the previous or proceeding verses and bend it to shape their own isms. My advice would be to put mens books down, forget the notions of preterism whether full or partial, which were conceived by a Catholic priest in order to counter the reformation and deflect away the notion that that anti-christ was the pope, and simply read both chapters at one sitting. I challenge you guys to deny that Jesus was dealing with two separate issues serious challenge. Chapter 23 is one of the most devastating indictments of the NT. Near the end of that chapter Jesus says this to the men of the system of Jerusalem "

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. (Mat 23:35-38)

In order to address PPs single line quote which he then claims to conclusive ( from one verse no less without any reference to the previous verses) one need simply read the whole chapter to see that it deals with those who saw all the aforementioned come to pass. Now, obviously, you would have to read ALL of the aforementioned, not just the parts that suit the ism that you support.

This is tough going just to get a few men to read two chapters at one sitting and then tell me they cannot identify two clearly separate issues. If they can tell me that with all honesty then we MUST agree to disagree or single verses of Scripture shall be quoted until the cows come home..................bro Frank

PP, it seems that your are fully persuaded. All I can do is belabor a point at this stage and I am pretty sure that would not bear fruit. If you read both chapters and by the way, if I could change anything about the Bible I would remove the chapters and verses, and cannot see that there are two issues going on, the fate of Jerusalem and the system and that generation , which Jesus addressed in ch 23 and the first two verses of 24 to include the fate of the temple, then he addresses the end of the world and that generation in Matt 24 then it seems pointless for us to continue. Let us agree to disagree. We should be fully persuaded in what we believe and you certainly seem to be and I cannot and will not criticize a man who is fully persuaded. So God bless you brother and may the Lord always give us a hunger for His word and a desire to dig deep with the help of His Holy Spirit. One last thought PP. I have erred in urging people to read both chapters, I should have urged people to read not just 23&24 but also 25. If Jesus is giving a sermon, we should listen to all of it for context, I am sure you would agree. Below is Matthew Henry's take on 24:1-3 I mention it because he does not agree with my view, but acknowledges it as a possibility, and that is probably one of the reasons I really like Henry................

(2.) What the enquiry itself was; When shall these things be; and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Here are three questions.
[1.] Some think, these questions do all point at one and the same thing - the destruction of the temple, and the period of the Jewish church and nation, which Christ had himself spoken of as his coming (Mat_16:28), and which would be the consummation of the age (for so it may be read), the finishing of that dispensation. Or, they thought the destruction of the temple must needs be the end of the world. If that house be laid waste, the world cannot stand; for the Rabbin used to say that the house of the sanctuary was one of the seven things for the sake of which the world was made; and they think, if so, the world will not survive the temple.
[2.] Others think their question, When shall these things be? refers to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the other two to the end of the world; or Christ's coming may refer to his setting up his gospel kingdom, and the end of the world to the day of judgment. I rather incline to think that their question looked no further than the event Christ now foretold; but it appears by other passages, that they had very confused thoughts of future events; so that perhaps it is not possible to put any certain construction upon this question of theirs.
But Christ, in his answer, though he does not expressly rectify the mistakes of his disciples (that must be done by the pouring out of the Spirit), yet looks further than their question, and instructs his church, not only concerning the great events of that age, the destruction of Jerusalem, but concerning his second coming at the end of time, which here he insensibly slides into a discourse of, and of that it is plain he speaks in the next chapter, which is a continuation of this sermon.

oh my!! You've done it again!

this is a new word I shall abscond with: "Ismmites".

(if pressed, I shall give you just attribtion, but i'm USING it!)

Hittites, Moabites, Ammonites, Hivvites......Ismmites.

the idol of religion, the idol of TALKING about religion, the idol of pride and "being right".

i'm up at midnite, having slept thru the afternoon, pondering about Holiness...its very quiet up here on the ridge, and I wanted to start a thread (I just heard Len Ravenhill say that "dispensationalism is error"....its in the "Books I recommend" exhortation) I wanted to start a thread about Samuel Logan Brengle, who's ministry I wish to investigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Logan_Brengle )

and I noticed this thread had 132....132(!) posts, and anytime I see that, I just KNOW its GOT to some religious fussing and arguing.

"on no neil!!" they might say in perfect Ismmite tongue, "its 'iron sharpening iron'!

bolderdash!

all that energy and time, just sitting up on this laptop, TALKING about this Most Holy Faith.

"oh I gotta be right, I gotta right!!!"

the prayer of the Ismmite......

Ismmites, you gotta weep...because WE NEED MORE TEARS!!!

Tears are Godly grief, Tears are LOVE.

In the strong Hand of the LORD upon me, imperfect and flawed as I am, I AM NOT GIVING UP ON REVIVAL!!!!

and "persecution"?......oh please, what limp palaver, when your people have their body fat made into soap....because they love Yahweh....that's "persecution".

Brother Frank, keep the good fight, you got the Grace to do it, but I cant argue with the Ismmites, i'll PRAY for them, that they be guided by God the Holy Ghost to be sealed in the head, and smash the NAME of their idol.....whats that IDOL's name?....."DOCTRINE"

the "priest of the preterist"...I don't even KNOW what a "preterist" is, sounds like a demon led pervert who hangs out at public washrooms in the wee hours of the morning!

and i'm not trying to be funny, but that what it sounds like.....and I could "look up" the Wikipedia entry what a preterist is...but WHY?
after I finish this sentence at 12:35 AM, why not turn off this computer and get on my knees and TALK TO JESUS?!?

I love you laddie, neil

Well, you are certainly right that you don't know every nuance of everything I believe (I've never even shared on any SI forum what I believe about most of that, so not sure where you came up with/surmised that those were my beliefs specifically?). Lol. 😊

I believe some of those things, honestly not 100% sure on others, & don't believe others. Anyways, I'm not a dispensationalist. Everyone who isn't a preterist isn't a dispensationalist. That is a fairly recent thing (grouping that together necessarily) that a lot of the hardcore teachers of preterism do that those who believe their view take away & perpetuate I think.

Anyways, may God bless you!
In Him,
Jeff

Neil, please allow me to correct your post!...

BAlderdash is spelled with an "A" & not an "O".

Lol. Again, I'm assuming you can also take a joke. Lol.

Lol. Again, I'm assuming you can also take a joke. Lol.

you know I can! I know we don't know each other well, but brother man, feel my spirit thru this medium of communication.......light, easy, loving in Jesus....I have NOTHING but love for you brother, by jingo, I wish you were in county up here in Wisconsin, I'd be hectoring you to beat the band, to join me , in the commitment to meet twice or once a week, Tues or Thursday for on your face, Holy Ghost intercessory prayer FOR REVIVAL in the guest cabin, which is unused....we dedicate to the LORD for His Use....thru US....and that aint "balderdash!!! much love, sleep well, neil

I was not sure whether to put in an apostrophe but in the end I went with two Ms in the middle Neil. I have copyrighted the word now therefore you must seek my permission if you wish to use it :) Ism's are the bane of Christendom..............bro Frank

Isimmites= those who follow a creed or doctrine born in the mind of man. Examples are Calvinism, Catholicism, Preterism, Arminianism and so on. Please feel free to add to the list.

Matthew 23:37-24:2

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwiilling. Behold your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see me until you say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!
Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when his disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

It does make more sense in observing the text above to combine the first two verses of Matthew 24 with the indictment that Jesus had against the Pharisees in Matthew 23.

The first two verses of Matthew 24 1 through 2 should really be the last two verses of Matthew 23. Because I believe this is completing the discourse of Jesus where He is bringing woes against the Pharisees. The ultimate woa would be the destruction of their temple. Which did occur in 70AD.

Matthew 24:3

As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately saying, tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming at the end of the age?

Here a new topic comes up. The disciples are asking Jesus when will these things happen. I believe that would be the signs that would precede his return and of the end of the age. So from Matthew 24:4 to the end of the chapter Jesus is describing what will proceed His future return. Here a whole new discourse behins from Matthew 24:4 to even the end of Matthew 25.

Actually Matthew 25 only makes sense when considering the fact that the return of Jesus is future. And did not occur in 70 AD as some arguing in this forum. Matthew 25 or exhortations and admonitions of how we are to live in light of His soon return.

My thoughts respectively posted.

Brother Blaine

Sounds spoken from a true FULL preterist to me. This is the step right before also explaining Christ already came in 70 AD, & that was the "Great & Terrible Day of the Lord" & there's no need to look forward to any return of Christ at all.

Heard it before. Still not buying it. Sorry

Several posts back our sister Brandi posted quotes from the Church Fathers. No we do not put them on a par with scriptures. However their testimonies do reflect what the early church believed in the first few centuries.

The early church saw a return of Jesus as being future. Not already having come in 70 AD.

It would be good to hunt that post up again and read those quotations by the Church Fathers. I think it is found on the fourth screen. Shortly after Greg's second post.

Respectively posted.

Brother Blaine

upon later reflection, the new configuration with the added "I" is the linguistically correct version, ie...."Isimmites" as opposed to "Ismmites". As frequently the case, you are the better linguist than I.

that said, Let us stand aside while the Isimmites resume their playtime in the sandbox of religion.

Wretched and totally depraved worm that I am, I will return to my nest under the pews hiding from God's wrath, lest I be "found out", reproved, rebuked, and shunned.

on second thought, I may hit the road, as I have found out there is a doctrinally sound church in Wells, Texas. that would befit such an unprofitable wretch as myself, must not forget to pack my scourge, so my new elders can lay my back open...why?....shouldn't such human refuse as myself submit to godly leadership?

Not trying to open pandora's box here (And I think 70 AD was the "first type mini-fulfillment" of Jesus' prophetic words, but not the ultimate endtime eschatological greater second/eventual fulfillment of this dual-fulfillment prophecy), but do you hate your parents TMK?

Jesus told his disciples everyone "MUST HATE THEIR PARENTS, father, mother, brother,.." Etc. or THEY CANNOT be His disciple. Right there plain as day.

So do you literally "hate" them? Well, if Jesus didn't literally mean to hate them when he spoke plainly to the disciples and said just that, "don't you think it would be disingenuous of Jesus not to clear that up?"

Just food for thought...

I'm not doing a direct parallel correlation between the two passages, only using that as an example to say that there are times things are spoken by the Lord in Scripture where either hyperbole, or Prophetic meaning,or Profetta mystery, etc. is used concerning spiritual things. So again I'm not directly paralleling the two passages, so please save time and don't show me how the two passages arent exactly the same thing, I'm just making the point that your whole explanation of your approach doesn't entirely hold up in all matters on all subjects on all evaluations of all of the Scriptures

Todd the clear reading of the chapters both 24 and 25 point to a future return of Jesus Christ. You can't separate chapters 24 and 25. The accounts contained in Matthew 25 that describe virgins, talents, snd judging of the nations all point to the future return of Jesus Chriat. You can't interpret those passages in kight of a 70 AD return of Christ. For that natter you can't interoret Matthew 24 in light of a 70 AD return of Jesus Christ.

John MacArthur does an excelkent job in laying out the gramnatical historocal contect of Matthew 24 and 25 in setting forth a future return of Jesus.

Though I do not like to throw commentaties into tge discussion. Many will reasom these passages are future in pointing to the future return of Jesus Christ and not a 70 AD return.

Repectfulky posted.

Brother Blaine

Todd as I pointed out before the whole discourse of Jesus Olivet discourse covers two chapters Matthew 24 and 25. The original manuscripts of Matthew never had chapter divisions. Frank has been imploring us to read chapters 23 and I would say through 25. The context makes more sense. The context pointing to a future return of Jesus Christ. Matthew 25 makes absolutely no sense in light of a 70 return of Christ that you argue out of Matthew 24. The parables of the virgins, the talents, and the judging of the nations cannot be understood in light of a 70 AD event.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus are asking a question they want to know when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age. The question directed to Jesus suggest they want to know when he is going to return in consummate things.

Notice the phrase 'end of the age'. This phrase is used in Matthew 13:39 and Matthew 18:20 in regards to the harvest. The implication being the end of the age is the consummation of all things when Jesus will return and reogn.

However this does beg a question. If you reason that the words of Jesus in Matthew 24 were fulfilled in 70 AD. Was Matthew 24:14 fulfilled in 70 AD?. If so how? The verse is quoted below.

....... the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations and then the end will come.......

Todd are you going to tell me that the Gospel was preached to the whole world as a testimony to all the nations and then the end came?

Respectfully I ask you or any others of praeteriat suasion to address this question.

Respectively posted.

Brother Blaine

Amen

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(Mar 13:14-20)

Jesus is certainly talking to His Disciples but look.....
"But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)" It is for those who would read this to understand this. For " in those days," there shall be affliction such as had never been before prior to the words of Jesus nor ever shall be after it. This is and these words are spoken to that generation in those times and this is the great tribulation..........bro Frank

Todd writes........."You may be right Frank. So let's be ready!"

Which was the point of the original post :) LOL, love you bro.......bro Frank