Prayer and support for Ken Miller

Dear brothers and sisters,
In the middle of the night I awakened and clicked onto the Godly Music section in the audio files here on sermonindex. I saw the Ken Miller Family singers and listened to this lovely Mennonite acapella choir. Then I wondered if this was the same pastor who is going to prison for aiding the mother who came to Christ who left her homosexual sin and marriage.

Pastor Miller, as a man of God, gave she and her daughter (she had been the surrogate mother) sanctuary and helped her relocate to Argentina.

Upon finding the millercase.org website I saw the news that Pastor Miller wrote his last letter before prison on Tuesday March 22, 2016. There are pictures of him saying goodbye to the congregation at Pilgrim Christian Fellowship in Stuart's Draft ,VA.

I clicked onto the family singers and indeed this is the same family that Greg had in the Godly Music section.

The Lord woke me up to pray for Ken Miller and his family. He has a wife and 6 children and the community will come together to support them as these dear Mennonite people do.

Our government has turned against Christians. It is ironic, yet most Christlike that once again a Mennonite believer suffers persecution willingly.

Once again, you can get the update on:

millercase.org

and the family singing hymns is even more lovely than the early ones here on SI

Respectfully in Christ,
Leslie

Leslie I have linked article and sent out on my distribution networks. We will be praying for him tonight on our call.

I went to the Millercase.org. Sister I was not able to find a link to the music you referenced. I would love to listen to the their music. Can you tell me where to find the music link.

Brother Blaine

This is a very sad and interesting case. I have nothing but respect for Ken Miller as a man of God and a man of great convictions and I applaud him for what he did.

However, he broke the law. Pure and simple and so did Lisa Miller. I am not defending the law at all, just learning the details of this case.

The law as bad as it is, stated that because of the civil union with the other woman, that other woman had child custody privileges. In circumventing the laws that makes Lisa a lawbreaker and there are consequences. According to the law and the prosecutors of the law, Ken Miller aided and abetted kidnapping. This is why he has been sentenced to 27months in prison.

Are these laws of man right and fair? One could argue easily in this case, NO WAY!

Are the prosecutors fair and are they showing grace and mercy in this case? I do not understand all the details so I do not know if 27mths is a light sentence or not? But we do know that wicked people prosper and escape justice on a daily basis and existing laws on our books are ignored millions of times in a million cases. There is nothing right or fair about human laws in circumstances like this and we can surmise that it is satan who has stirred up the men to go after Ken Miller in this case. In all this we do know however that the Lord is in control and is allowing satan to appear as if he is getting the upper hand, but it is all for the Lords purposes and His will is being done in Kens life.

But these laws, rightly or wrongly are on the books and they say that if you enter into a civil union and or a marriage you must abide by the laws thereof. And the outcome of this is that we do not get to be the only one to dictate the welfare of shared children.

There are many circumstances similar to this case where someone did something that they regret BEFORE they came to know Christ. Should we counsel them to skirt their responsibilities and go around the law? What would we say to a father who gets saved and begins to live for Christ but his wife rejects Christ and leaves him for another man and begins to live a wicked and vile lifestyle? Should that christian father submit to the laws of the land and share custody with his ex-wife? Or should he flee and (in the eyes of the law) kidnap his children and become a fugitive?

I do not know the answer to that question and I am not condemning Ken Miller for what he did, please let me be clear in this.

So what then is the issue? None really, we are just going to have to accept that to obey God rather than man is probably going to wind us up in hot water and maybe some of us will even lose our heads one day:-) Its not hard to see how all this will pan out as new and despicable laws are put on the books to corner Christians in their beliefs and a stand for a higher law. One day it will become unlawful to do many things in obedience to Christ. Until then let us thank God for what religious liberties we have left.

Let us continue to pray for this dear brother and his family. I am confident that God is being glorified in this whole ordeal and that He has great things in store for all as a result of this.

The brother, Ken Miller, is aware that he has violated the law. But then this brother comes from an Anabaptist heritage where his forefathers have suffered for their faith in Christ. The Anabaptist suffered for their belief that believers and believers alone were to be baptized. They did not believe in the baptism of infants. Yet state law in those nations that were Protestant and Catholic mandated that babies be baptized. This was done mainly for tax purposes. So the Anabaptists were aware that disobeying this law would result in their death. And history does record that many died for their faith in Christ by refusing to baptize infants and baptized only believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I believe out of that tradition and his conscience Ken Miller chose to help Lisa Miller and pay the consequences of his actions.

Many of us remember the story of Corrie Ten Boom. Against the Nazi edicts at the time. She and her family hid Jews that were on the Nazi death watch. She and her family also paid a price.

Brother I believe that we as Believers in America will also have to ask yourself the question. Will we obey God rather than man. Realizing the price that may be required of us.

Just my thoughts brother.

Blaine

Yes brother Blaine I realize that Ken knows now that he violated the law, but one wonders if he knew that at the time?

I probably wouldn't have know that if it was me. And it seems that he might have been acting out of ignorance too because he drew several others into the plot as well. If he knew the seriousness of the crime I doubt he would have knowingly made others his accomplices.

It is a dilemma for sure and one that very few of us have ever had to face in this country. I find the ruling of the judge quite interesting, here is what he said:

"The room was quiet as the judge spoke for some time to an attentive audience- first about the seriousness and sadness of the offense, but then also about his respect and admiration for Ken's faith and character. He said he does not feel Ken is being sentenced for his religion, but for actions contrary to the law. As one whose responsibility it is to uphold the laws and to protect the system of law in this country, he also finds himself in a dilemma. Many people commit crimes in the name of religion (even murder), and if we discard the criminal justice system because of everyone's personal beliefs, we will have anarchy- a country without laws. He finds it painful and hard, but this court must enforce the law which exists."

It is such a complicated matter and I understand the judges sentiments. What is at issue is the horrible laws of man that are in effect, that a lesbian woman can even contend for a moment that she shares that child with Lisa? Insanity. The whole mess is satanic and an attack on Gods people, that much I am certain of. Look for much, much more of this down the road!

One other thing I read was that Ken was asked if he would do it all over again...aid in the kidnapping of a child. He gave a truthful answer but it was vague and worrisome for the judge which probably is what caused him to be given the maximum sentence of 27mths. In the eyes of the law they are concerned about repeat offences.

Regarding Corrie Ten Boom, I don't think this situation rises to that level brother. The Jews were being exterminated. In this case, we are dealing with child custody laws. And laws and situations that are not too uncommon. All sorts of people for all sorts of reasons want to get out of sharing their children with an ex-spouse. What are the courts to do...be partial?

Would it be fair for a non-christian to kidnap their child because they did not want to share it with a "crazy/extreme christian" spouse?

Certainly a dilemma if you are a christian judge thats for sure.

So what about Lisa Miller? Should she remain a fugitive? If she ever returned she would probably face harsh justice and the child would suffer as a result and probably never be returned to her. That is all conjecture on my part but I am sure she is thinking these things as well. And she is still being hunted, actively pursued by the US authorities.

More than anything I feel for this woman and her child...may the Lord continue to protect and guide her!

Granted brother this is a complicated case. And the case that causes us to ask the difficult question. Where do we draw the line and say we must obey God rather than men?

Here is a scenario. And one that may very well come to play out if a certain candidate is elected president. If the government deemed that Muslims residing in this country were a threat to National Security. And they were being rounded up and sent to FEMA like camps. Perhaps camps where they would be executed. Because the government has passed laws that Muslims are a threat to National Security.

Let's say there's a Muslim family living next door to you. You have been trying to reach out to this family with the love of Jesus Christ. All of a sudden you find yourself in the situation where you must report them to the authorities. Knowing that if you report them to the authorities they will lose their lives. And let's say this family turns to you and ask for help. What would your response be?

Brother I do not believe these are intellectual questions. But questions we will have to ask ourselves in the not-too-distant future as to where do we draw the line and say we must obey God rather than men? And be prepared to count the cost for radical obedience to Christ. This I believe is the message of the Ken Miller case to us. Whatever the situation may be. We are commanded to love our neighbor. But loving our neighbor may well come with a steep price. But then did Jesus not pay a steep price for us to have redemption in Him?

Simply my thoughts and reflections.

Brother appreciate you. Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Also I do agree brother. We need to pray for all involved in this case. The Ken Miller family. The Lisa Miller family. And for the judge and Janet Jenkins.

Indeed we need to keep this in prayer.

Blaine

Todd this is more than a custody battle of a same-sex couple. There were allegations of sexual abuse by the former parent, Janet Jenkins When Isabel would go to visit Janet Jenkins, she would come back from the visitation and tell her mother, Lisa, she felt like kilng herself.

I do not want to go into the explicit details on a public forum. But allegations did emerge that Janet Jenkins inappropriately touched the daughter. This being the case Lisa Miller became concerned and sought the help of a Mennonite community. Believing that in the political correct climate of our country she would not find redress through the justice system. Also Lisa believing that if Janet had continued visit rights toward the daughter she would be harmed.

I might add that the allegations of sexual abuse were not admitted in the defense of Ken Miller.

One must ask the question to what extent will a mother go to protect her child. Lisa caring the embryo and giving birth to Isabel was willing to take what steps necessary to protect her daughter. Even to the point of violating federal law. Just because it is federal law, does not mean that it is a just law. Particularly in the eyes of God.

We cannot assume in this politically correct climate that one will see Justice through the American justice system system. Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical. But in the times that we are living in. The American justice system is hostile toward the things of Christ. Indeed the American justice system is hostile toward common sense. For if we had employed common sense. You would not see children being raised by two men or two women reported to be married in the eyes of God.

Brother this is respectfully posted. And as usual these are my thoughts. Which could very well land me in jail.

Brother Blaine

Todd nor will I turn you in either bro. :-) The case is a complicated one. If your research it on the internet. And certainly go to the miller case.org I think more facts will begin to emerge.

Thinking of starting a thread on political correctness. I do not want to take away from what Leslie has started on this thread. And that is to pray for a brother who will be serving time in prison. Certainly to pray that God would use him in the lives of prisoners who need to hear about Jesus. And certainly to pray for his family to be strengthened. Pray that the judge and Janet Jenkins will come to a saving faith and life in the Lord Jesus Christ.

When this case first started I believe Ken Miller was defended by David Burko who wrote The Kingdom Turned Upside Down. Don't know if that means anything. But felt led to put this in a poat.

By the way Todd are you a lawyer? Only ask because you mentioned bar exam. I facilitate CLE seminars myself.

Posted with a :-).

Brother Blaine

Brothers

Regarding the previous question concerning whether it is permissable to conceal those who are being sought by murderers, my belief is that it is, even to the point of lying (witness Rahab) because by doing so you are preventing a much greater crime.

Brenda that is an excellent insight regarding rehab. Welcome back to the form dear sister.

Blaine

Thank you dear Blaine.

Thanks Blaine, Todd, Mark and Brenda for filling in with so much.
Blaine the music on millercase.org is on the far right hand side of the screen where there are other topics. On SI it is under audio listings under music. I listen to Aileen Gilcrest there too.

It was important to mention that the original judge in the divorce/custody case ignored Lisa's fear about sexual abuse of her daughter. No wisdom of Solomon there. She fled to protect her daughter. What a can of worms Satsn has wrought with this lawless legalization of same sex marriage.

I urge all of you to watch Dennis Jernigan's testimony in 'Sing Over Me'. As a young boy, a man exposed himself to him in a bathroom and he was drawn into sexual activity with other young boys. Then in college a Christisn leader made a sexual advance on him and things went from bad to worse until the torment nearly drove him to suicide. He was born again in 1981 and God delivered him from this sin. It is a very moving and glorious testimony and he has a ministry to those trapped in homosexuality, but we must pray for those who are set free for now they can be called 'hateful' for telling of their deliverance from sin. And it does no good to rant and rave against those trapped in this sin for in doing so we may drive many to suicide as happened to a friend of my daughter's, Matthew Bardin, age 25. A young man who signed up recently on SI understands this, Michsel Liau.
Sis L

Hi sister Leslie,
For me at least the alleged sexual abuse is the kicker in all of this. And it makes perfect sense as to why Lisa fled like this. I imagine if this was my child and I was convinced that there was sexual abuse going on, I would also feel that I would have no other choice but to flee with the child and suffer the consequences.

I think Lisa did the right thing:-)

Yes Todd, it makes no sense that allegations of sexual abuse would be ignored by the courts. If they were real or there was evidence why wasn't CPS involved? Was there a case officer assigned? If not why not? If so, was a report given to the judge? Anyone know about this?

I don't mean to sound contradictory but we were discussing this as a family tonight and wondering if this really is religious persecution against a godly man as the reason why he was thrown into prison?

I am not so sure to be honest.

Would we say this about a non-believer or a Muslim who had aided and abetted a kidnapping?

Ken told the judge he broke the law on religious grounds. But did he? I thought it was to help the mother get her child out of a sexually abusive situation?

The law applies to everyone equally so on that basis I think it is reasonable to suggest that this DOES NOT qualify as religious persecution but is rather someone breaking kidnapping laws. That is the reason Ken Miller is in jail today. Doesn't make the laws right though and we should still pray for the family.

Perhaps someone smarter than me can show how this imprisonment is religious persecution...I am open to seeing other points of view, thanks.

Brother the Supreme Court has ruled that marriage is now between a man and a man and a woman and a woman. This is the law of the land. This is the law that has to be obeyed. This is a law that is now on the books.

So you are an evangelical pastor who believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. A same-sex couple comes to you for marriage. Can you obey the above law and perform a sanctified marriage for a same-sex couple. Can you obey the above law with a clear conscience. Particularly when the law of God is that marriage is between a man and a woman. Brother just because something is on the books and it is called federal law. Does not mean that the law is just in the eyes of God. Particularly in the case of two of the same sex who wish to be married.

Let us say that you are a Christian wedding caterer. You take a sanctified view of marriage as between a man and a woman. Your job is to provide services for weddings. Up until now your clients have been heterosexual couples. All of a sudden a same sex couple approaches you for services for a same sex wedding. Can you with a clear conscience provide those services knowing that God's word teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman? Yet federal law says you cannot discriminate against this couple.

Let us say that you run a Christian adoption agency. Your desire is to place children in a loving Christian home. That is a home where the parents are a man and a woman. All of a sudden you are approached by a same-sex couple who profess to be Christians who want to adopt. Federal law says you cannot discriminate against this couple. Yet you know the word of God teaches that a child is to be raised by a mother and a father. Not by a father and a father. Or a mother and a mother. Can you with a clear conscience provide adoption services do the same sex couple?

Brother I can go on with example after example. Just because there are federal laws on the books does not mean that these laws are enforced justly or with common sense. And in the case of same-sex marriage when these laws are enforced they go against the higher
law of God.

Brother in the examples I gave above one can argue Romans 13 and say that the evangelical pastor, Christian wedding caterer, or the Christian adoption agency owner should obey federal law. But then they have to wrestle with their conscience knowing that federal law is in violation of God's law.

But brother let's take it one step further. You are an evangelical pastor who faithfully expounds and preaches God's word from cover to cover. You come to Romans 1:18-32. You know there are laws on the books at the federal level that make hate speech against any group, this would be the LBGT illegal. You know in your heart of hearts that if you preach through Romans 1:17 thru 32 which describe the origins of homosexuality you could very well land in jail. What do you do? Do you avoid going through that section of scripture. And move on to Romans 2? Can you do this with a clear conscience?

Mark do you see. Just because there are federal laws on the books. These laws are not always just. Or enforced with a sense of justice.

Brother, in the early centuries of the church, the believers faithfully obeyed the just laws of the Roman government when they did not contradict with the laws of God. But when Caesar passed a law requiring he be recognized as God. And that a sacrifice be offered to him to show allegiance to Rome. The Christiane had to disobey this law with the consequences that it entailed. The consequences being that many lost their lives for their faith in Christ.

Brother we do honor Romans 13 and submit to the governing authorities. But submission to governing authorities must end when the laws of temporal government conflict with the higher Eternal laws with God. What that point would be for each person must be directed by the Holy Spirit. But there will come a point when we say we must obey God rather than man.

I do not know if I have addressed your qyestions. But I hope some of my thoughts help.

This is respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

Also regarding Lisa Miller. She had concerns about her daughter's safety and well-being. Particularly with the allegations of sexual abuse. However the federal judge seemed to disregard these concerns.

Thus Lisa had no choice but to turn to Ken Miller and seek help in getting out of the country for the safety of her daughter.

Brother I think you posted to what links will a mother go to protect her child. I believe to any lengths even if it means violating federal law. There was a time when the American justice system would have protected the child. There was a time when sanity ruled our court system. There was a time when a child would not have been raised by same-sex couple. But we are not living in those times now. And I do not believe that one will ever see any type of Justice from the American court system. Particularly in this situation that is under discussion.

Respectfully posted. Simply my thoughts.

Brother Blaine

Thank you all for thought provoking posts.
We must not strain out gnats and swallow camels.
When Lisa Miller came to Pastor Miller, he heard her testimony of becoming a born again Christian who was now forgiven of her sins but who had also turned away from her sins. This happened in 2009 long before she met Pastor Miller. When she came to him for help he discerned that she was a true believer. As has been stated here before, her concern was now for her daughter who might very well have been pulled into that perverse lifestyle by the other woman who was still a lesbian.
Pastor Miller broke man's laws to obey God's laws. This has always been the path to persecution and men and women who belong to God. "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt. 5:10

I'm reading the Metaxas biography oh Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, the struggles, the wrestling with God over these same issues of a government that had gone mad. In the end the true believer accepts the consequences of his or her actions for standing for truth. And ofttimes it is prison or death.

The Christian who merely says we must obey the authorities ofttimes forfeits their duty to God and man. I am guilty of standing by when evil takes over. May God give us in the Western world the resolve of His own Son, who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross.

Gratefully,
Leslie

Hi Blaine,
You didn't answer my question...sorry:-)

My question was, how is this religious persecution when there are kidnapping laws on the books that have nothing to do with a persons religion? They don't say, "non-religious people can kidnap children but religious people cannot".

You have talked about the wrongs of gay marriage and obviously this is not disputed, but my question is about the kidnapping laws. They are irreligious which would imply that the imprisonment of Ken Miller is not religious persecution.

Lisa went into this marriage/civil union and agreed to "have a baby" with her "spouse". She did this knowing full well what the laws were. Just because she became a christian doesn't mean the laws no longer apply. I am talking about the kidnapping laws.

Again, to be clear, I fully support Lisa and Ken in what they did, but that doesn't mean I agree with the assertion that his imprisonment is religious persecution.

One other thing, unless I am mistaken didn't the Supreme Court specifically exclude clergy from religious persecution in their ruling? In other words clergy cannot be prosecuted for refusing to marry a same sex couple. I'm just pointing that out in response to one of your examples.

My sister I believe it was Bonhoeffer who said that silence in the face of evil is evil itself.

The statesman Edmund Burke said in order for evil to triumph is for a few good men to do nothing.

Brother Blaine

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We have the Holy Spirit and the Word to help us discern if it is God who is working in us or another spirit or our own flesh.

When lives are at stake and emotions running high, it is much more difficult to discern His will and good pleasure. In the end, a man must be true to his conscience and God is faithful to show him his error, if any.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

If a man violates his own conscious then he is like a wave tossed by the seas. I would rather a man obey his conscious and trust the Lord to show him if he was in error or not than to take a poll and do what the majority want. I am not saying there is no wisdom in the multitude of godly counselors, or the Word, I am saying that a man in the final analysis after seeking the Word and the Spirit and godly counselors, must make his decision and stand by it. Even godly counselors can be wrong, but God will be faithful to show this man the truth.

Matthew 5:10

Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Brother the persecution against Ken Miller is the evil that is behind the federal laws. The brother took a stand for righteousness sake. That is doing the right thing. Consequently the enemy is using the federal system the persecute this brother.

That is about as simple as I can put it.

Regarding clergy. I believe they can be subject to prosecution if they do not perform same-sex marriage ceremonious. I am not aware of the Supreme Court extending protection to them. Though I could be wrong on this. But even if such protection does exist. Rest assured it will be repealed because of the evil of the times we are living in.

My thoughts bro.

Brother Blaine

The supreme court did not include specific wording but all the state courts who approved SSM did include such wording as Justice Roberts pointed out in his dissenting remarks stated: "Respect for sincere religious conviction has led voters and legislators in every State that has adopted same-sex marriage democratically to include accommodations for religious practice."

Also, several decisions of the United States Supreme Court strongly suggest that the First Amendment guaranty of religious freedom permits clergy to perform or not perform marriages according to their religious beliefs.

As to the original question I had, I apologize for being too dumb to understand what others are so clear about, but I still cannot bring myself to see how this imprisonment is specific religious persecution. Religious persecution by inference is persecution because of ones faith, is that correct? If that is the case, Ken Miller or anyone for that matter would have been convicted for kidnapping regardless of their religious convictions. When the judge handed down his statement he said as much. He wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with SSM, he was saying the law is the law...for everyone.

I think Ken suffered for righteousness sake...which is just as bad, but not the specific argument that many make, which we call "religious persecution". Religious persecution is when Ken would not be allowed to even preach Christ or hold a christian meeting in his home or any other location.

And speaking of holding christian meetings and being persecuted. Are you aware of the pastor in Arizona who was imprisoned last year for holding church meetings in his home? On the surface it looked like a clear cut case of religious persecution and I remember all the facebook posts about this. But when you dug a little deeper you found the other side of the story. The man lived in a suburban neighborhood and built a large separate building in his back yard for church meetings. This was not a residential building and was for the purpose of holding public meetings. As such it violated zoning ordinances. He didn't like this and did what he wanted to do anyway (probably thinking that he adhered to a higher law). The bottom line is that he lost...he was warned and told to stop and remove the building but he refused (or something like that). And in the end he elected to serve prison time rather than obey the zoning laws.

I hope you can see my point here. There are so many cases like this where we think we know what is going on until we hear all sides of the story. I just think that we ought to be careful with calling everything religious persecution when it does not go the way that we christians think things should go.

Perhaps differentiating between "suffering for righteousness sake" and "religious persecution" is splitting hairs, but it is important to know the difference when hearing about some of these so called hardship cases in the land of the free...where we practice religion free and without restrictions.

Brothers I feel like we are splitting hairs here. If I were to tell you Last Summer 9 saints were martyred in a church in South Carolina for their faith in Christ. You would tell me "no". They were killed because they were black. And the one who killed them was motivated by racial hatred.

If I were to say that 7 or 8 students where martyrded in Rosebud Oregon because they were asked if they were a Christian. You would tell me "no" they were the victims of random violence by a crazed gunman.

If I were to tell you that two or three Christiane work martyred because of their faith in Christ as a result of a jihadist attack in California. You would say "no". , they were simply the victims of random violence.

If I were to say that Rachel Scott was martyred and Columbine when she was asked if she Believe In Christ. And then blown away when she said yes. You would tell me "no". She was simply the victim of school violence.

I think we are trying very hard to convince ourselves that America will be spared from the onslaught of persecution. We are trying very hard to convince ourselves that persecution is not occurring in America. And coming up with all sorts of explanations to explain why persecution is not occurring in America.

As usual. Simply my thoughts.

Brother Blaine

So we say Ken Miller gets what he deserves. He violated federal law. La Dee Da. No persecution.

So let us go to Starbucks and get a latte.

It is an urban myth that persecution is going to come to America. So we can breathe easy now.

By the way. Has anyone told Paul Washer that persecution is not going to come up on America.

Blaine

Thanks Todd, that's all I was saying.

Regarding Florists and Cake Shops, the law states that no-one can be refused service based on race, religious affiliation or sexual orientation. If a christian was refused service at a place of business because they were a christian, this would be considered religious persecution and some of them might even lawyer up and demand their freedoms were protected.

Alright. Are we saying that persecution coming to America or persecution occurring in America is an urban myth???

Because I believe that is what I'm hearing. Was Paul Washer off of his rocker when he warned of upcoming persecution coming to America?

Are we saying that persecution is an urban myth. The idea of persecution coming to the United States of America is simply false?

Blaine

Todd, I agree. Anyone who suggests that Americans are suffering under religious persecution in a wholesale way, right now is more than likely allowing themselves to get caught up in internet paranoia. Once in a while its a good idea to turn off the computer, step outside and discover that things are not as bad as the internet makes them out to be.

Is persecution coming to America? Absolutely, no doubt in my mind...the signs are everywhere. I don't think anyone on this forum would argue with that.

What we are seeing is the continual rise of evil and evil men coming to power. Jesus said this would happen. That wickedness would increase and the love of many would grow cold. As society is transformed from righteous living to wickedness, more and more evil and weak men will come to power and create even more laws that defies Gods laws.

First it was SSM...next it will be a federal law that states that clergy MUST marry gays or suffer prosecution and thats when we will really see civil disobedience that will probably give rise to anti-Christian laws.

And then the persecution will begin!!!

Respectfully brother I do not think that will happen. We will not be arrested simply because we are Christians or that Christianity is outlawed. I believe what will happen will be as Paul Washer detailed it out. We will be arrested because we are enemies of the state. Not because we are Christians.

We will be arrested because we are narrow-minded bigots and not tolerant of others. This I believe is how it will come down. But it will not be so blatantly obvious that we are arrested because we are Christians.

Simply my thoughts. Blaine

Right Blane. In China you can be Christian as long as you are a member of the state registered church. I suspect the same thing here. Be a member of a registered church (501c3) and don't cause any "trouble".

"We will be arrested because we are narrow-minded bigots and not tolerant of others. This I believe is how it will come down. But it will not be so blatantly obvious that we are arrested because we are Christians."

I haven't listened to Paul Washers sermon but if that is what he says I agree with him and what you said above.

Essentially Hitler did the same thing, it was more than just religious persecution of the Jews, but more of an enemy of the state thing...and that included non-Jews and others. Any destabilizing influence to his power.