I believe Paul Washer still commands respect in this forum. A few years ago the brother gave a very sobering message warning us about the reality of persecution coming up on the American Church.
Yet what I hear coming from this forum is that persecution in America is non-existent. Indeed I think what I'm hearing is that persecution is not going to come upon the United States.
So my question is did Paul Washer get it wrong?
Blaine
=
Bear- I don't think he is wrong.
But I do think something major will have to happen first- like a bunch of "Christian" terrorists committing some horrible act of destruction and claiming God told them to do it. It would have to be so bad that people would fear Christians as much as they do radical muslims.
Refusing to perform SSM will not be a sufficient catalyst.
By the way- if you could provide a link to his message I'd appreciate it.
Hi Todd, here is an alternative scenario to your view that some kind of Christian terrorists would have to be involved to cause persecution against the saints. I wrote it a couple of years ago but for what it is worth, here it is.........
This subject can be very difficult to approach today because there have been so many crazy people claiming when the end of the world would happen. The below scenario reckons on the saints going through the great tribulation. Therefore there is no particular day or hour that is looked for, rather a season, birth pangs if you like. We are told by Jesus that we should be able to discern the signs of the times, not the day nor the hour of His return. In any event, most peoples of the world and the church have a difficult time imagining a time where Christians would be hunted down and killed for the mere fact of being Christian. They may be able to imagine this in a Muslim world setting, but not in the West. I do not claim that the scenario below is prophetic, I merely wish to show you a logical procession of events that could lead to a world-wide persecution of the true saints.
I think we may all agree that Jesus is coming relatively soon. Where we may disagree is on the subject of rapture. Lets assume there is no rapture and Jesus is coming soon, then the saints will go through the great tribulation. The Scriptures tells us that it will be worse than anything that has ever happened before in history, in fact the Lord must shorten those days for the elects sake or we would all be dead.
Just 70 years ago, in the heart of educated and cultured Europe, in a country that pronounced itself to be Christian, an evil man arose and in six short years, killed six million Jews for the mere fact of being Jewish. He shoved them into gas chambers and then burned them in furnaces, men, woman and children, sparing none. Now this is not some Biblical genocide from the ancient world, this is something that happened just 70 years ago. Now what kind of events would need to unfold for the world to turn on Christians and for there to be a coming together of the world religions into one religion?
Lets say tomorrow there is an attack by Muslim extremists on multiple cities. New York, Washington, London, Paris Rome and Moscow are hit simultaneously with nuclear suitcase bombs. Rather than the three thousand dead of 9/11, there is one hundred thousand dead in each city. The world is repulsed and is brought together because of this great tragedy. Fundamentalists of all stripes are universally condemned and outlawed. To state publicly that there is only one true religion, only one way to heaven, becomes illegal. Such people are denounced as those who have caused all the troubles in the world. They are seen as a cancer on society which society must rid itself of.
So society gives them a chance to renounce such believes. At the same time, the major religions of the world have a summit. Islam, Christianity and the Jewish faith come together for a summit in Rome. Pope Francis leads the summit because he is universally respected. When the meeting is over they announce that they can all trace their roots back to Abraham. That they all worship the same God just in different ways. They announce that there are multiple roads to heaven and that to say otherwise is merely hate speech. They agree to drop Jesus and Mohammed from their literature and only speak in terms of God and His prophets, agreeing to stand upon what they agree on and bringing a historic unity that will usher in a new day, a new order for the world where there is equality for all.
The vast majority of the world hail this and rejoice in it. A small minority resist it and in the shadow of the multiple hundreds and thousands of deaths, the world hates them with a perfect hatred. They hate them more than the Germans hated the Jews. The minority cannot find work and are ultimately arrested for continuing to ” share the Gospel.” While they are a minority, they are still in the millions and camps are set up to imprison them because the prison system cannot contain them. An ever-growing hatred by the general public and resentment that they have to be fed and kept eventually leads to the decision to make it a capital offense punishable by death to be a fundamental Christian.......bro Frank
I think to some degree we are already seeing some of what you wrote here Bro Frank. Bits and pieces of it anyway.
Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Here is the SermonIndex YouTube link for the Paul Washer clip:
https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=C7UyZYpeReY
Transcript: "The church in America is going to suffer so terribly and you laugh now but they will come after us, they will come after our children, they will close the net around us while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad, when weÂ’re arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear. You will be isolated from society as has already happened, anyone who tries to run for office who actually believes the Bible will be considered a lunatic until finally we are silenced. We will be called things that weÂ’re not and persecuted not for being followers of Christ, but for being radical fundamentalists who do not know the true way of Christ, which of course is love and tolerance. WeÂ’ll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history. TheyÂ’'ve already come after your children and for most of you they got them. They got them through the public schools and indoctrination in the University and indoctrination and then you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. ItÂ’s because you fed them right into the devilÂ’'s mouth.
So, little by little the net is closing around and then itÂ’s not little by little. Look how fast things are going downhill just in a matter of weeks, matter of weeks; but at the same time know this: persecution is always meant for evil, but God always means it for good. And is it not better to suffer in this life to have an extra weight of glory in Heaven? You must settle this in your mind, this is the one thing I want to say over and over: Do not believe...down through history you have a wrong idea of martyrdom and persecution, you think that these men were persecuted and martyred for their sincere faith in Jesus Christ, that was the real reason, but no one heard that publicly. They were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state, as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society. Your suffering will not be noble, so your mind must be filled with the Word of God when all people persecute you and turn on you and if the Spirit of God and common grace pulls back and you see even your children and your grandchildren tossing in the lot that you should die. This is no game.
You want revival and awakening, but know this, for the most part great awakenings have come only preceding great national catastrophes [of?] the persecution of the church. I believe God is bringing a great awakening but I believe that He is raising up young men who are strong in trust in the providence of God to be able to wade through the hell thatÂ’s going to break loose on us and it will be on us before we even recognize it; unless, unless in GodÂ’s providence He is not done, He is not done. And no[te?], this is, this is not silly talk. Apart from great awakening, these things are going to come upon you. Be ready to lose your homes, your cars, and everything."
by awakened on 2016/3/25 20:09:16Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Jesus was killed because He confronted the religious ruling class. His teaching threatened them. His boldness and refusal to conform to them angered them.
I don't see that happening today. You have to do a little more than to just call yourself a Christian.
Christians will be fine in their church buildings obeying whatever the state tells them.
No, he was not wrong.
I know true Holy Spirit inspired prophetic unction when I see/discern it. That was one of those "prophetic words" moments. Saw David Wilkerson move in that before too. Others have been & are prophesying even now similarly. He wasn't wrong. The Lords timing & what He means by what He has one share & what we think can be slightly different, but I believe that to be of the Lord when he shared that. For sure
I admit that I waver some on it. I just don't know for sure.
Most of the time I am of the mind of Paul Washer's statement.
But, the church has been around this Jericho many, many times and the walls of the order of the age still stand.
Things change, and then they don't. Seriously, I can't see where the governments of the world are anywhere close to becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. So, amillenialism explains nothing, premillenialism explains nothing and postmillennialism never really did. :)
If something is going to happen soon, cataclysmic change will have to occur suddenly. I know that's a nice setup for someone to come in and say, "Yeah, that's called the rapture." Okay, have at it, but I'm not buying that explanation either.
Nope. I'm afraid we're going to be set up for a disappointment when none of the things we expect are going to unfold in any way resembling what we've believed and understood. This world is an absolute disaster with no prospects of improvement, and where hope of improvement exists it is the product of delusional thought processes (the suppression of truth).
I think the changes that have happened in the last year are ASTOUNDING (Muslim refugee re displacement, Middle Eastern War, BRICS, Currency & Proxy wars, Supreme Court gay marriage case, exposure videos of Planned Parenthod trafficking baby parts, etc., etc.) & a "Suddenly" is coming like in the next matter of months.
Julias writes.....
"by Julius21 on 2016/3/25 20:18:02
by awakened on 2016/3/25 20:09:16Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Jesus was killed because He confronted the religious ruling class. His teaching threatened them. His boldness and refusal to conform to them angered them.
I don't see that happening today. You have to do a little more than to just call yourself a Christian.
Christians will be fine in their church buildings obeying whatever the state tells them. "
Julias, did you edit this reply? ..........bro Frank
Bro Mark writes
" In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way."
Great observation Mark, I think this is exactly how it will unfold, all the peoples of the world will be fooled by this, but not the true saints who have the witness of the Holt Spirit...........bro Frank
Sorry but I don't understand this "persecution is coming" stuff.... I say that in love and reality and from experience...I don't know how many people here work for a living and get out and have to make a living, but I do, and I praise the Lord for it.
Quickly, I've noticed this in my own life for years - the cast-down ones, the drug addicted, the "hopeless" as society calls them, are very pleasant people, although sinners, they see through phoniness; and when one cares and listens and helps them, the love and the appreciation they show is quite something. Now, on the other hand, the mockers and scoffers, or the "educated" I work with as well is to some extent the opposite. Back-biters, haters of God, as the apostle put it...Some try to make my life miserable at work...It is the spirit in them, for they walk in darkness, but praise the Lord, it is good training :D. Then, there are the many religious....well, that's a whole other story.
So persecution is coming....I don't get that...For when I came out of Egypt, I was put into the wilderness asap, and am being trained to turn the other cheek, rely on God for all good things, being poor but making others rich...i can go on and on, but it's bed time. Persecution comes, to me, from the proud and they're everywhere; but praise God, He's a blessed trainer the Holy Ghost is :) When I am weak, then am I strong
(Adding this short paragraph): Persecution against the saints has been here already since i stepped out for Christ, or should I say, He thrust me out into the world, Praise His Holy Name, and there's no adventure quite like it :)
Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, which meant His authority outweighed the religious leaders authority...and the people were beginning to believe it. The religious leaders didn't believe it though but with the people being drawn in, He became a huge threat to them. They feared that they and their system would become irrelevant and lose control over the common people...They also reasoned that He might lead a rebellion against Rome, which would have brought Rome down upon them and an end or at least a severe curtailment to their power in Israel.
But what does this mean practically for us? How does this relate to what is coming down the pike for believers in the west?
"For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.”
I think it is very clear what is going to happen. This man of sin will come on the scene and exult himself and attempt to bring the whole world in subjection to him, to worship him as God. All practices and beliefs in the one True God will be outlawed, laws created and viciously enforced. This is how he will force the world to bow the knee to him...So that part is clear.
The real question is what will bring him to power? I think Frank has outlined this scenario well. As terrorism becomes a global epidemic and finally results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, there will be worldwide shock and a call to bring this to an end. This is when the one world government will be formed and the man of sin will quickly rise to power.
Ritchie writes.......
"Sorry but I don't understand this "persecution is coming" stuff."
Its okay not to understand stuff brother. God has different callings for different brothers and sisters, we cannot possibly understand everything.
God bless you in your adventure...........bro Frank
Bro Mark writes.....
"As terrorism becomes a global epidemic and finally results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, there will be worldwide shock and a call to bring this to an end. This is when the one world government will be formed and the man of sin will quickly rise to power."
And also, Pope Francis and Mahmood Abbas and Shimon Peres met last year. They were seeking a spiritual solution to the worlds problems. They emerged from that meeting saying that what the world needs is a united nations of religion because most if not all of the conflict is religion based. Here is how it will probably unfold, the scenario we discussed and Mark catpures in the above paragraph happens. The leaders of the three main religions get together with their scribes and scholars They emerge telling us how we have the same foundation, we all have Abraham as our father.
We may call God by different names but He is the one same God. Lets unite over what we agree with and agree that we are all God's children and that there are many ways to heaven and they we must celebrate diversity rather than kill each other over it. They agree that the dome of the rock sits upon a site that is holy to all of them and they make this " holy place," the center of a new world religion that encompasses the brotherhood of man. All who oppose this are deemed as haters and a cancerous poison in society that must be dealt with in the most severest terms for the health of the world and the future of peace.
The world rejoices and bells toll all over the world that for the first time since Babel, the people of the world have come together and are working together for the greater good. And still this annoying minority/remnant are saying that although the world is proclaiming peace peace, they say there is no peace. And the hatred of the world is turned upon this " narrow minded hateful bigoted people." ........bro Frank
Brother Frank
What I don't understand about "persecution is coming" is the what is coming instead of the what is happening now, today.
Brother Paul Washer is indeed not wrong, nor others like Leonard Ravenhill, in warning what is coming upon the Earth. For God did speak through the Apostle John, and the prophets giving them visions and words to write down.
However, the Lord is His goodness, is preparing His people now... But I also see many who cannot even handle, by the grace of God, the smallest of persecutions now, and therefore for one to think they will be able to suffer righteously and sin not against the God of the Universe when even worse persecutions (like death and imprisonment, the taking of their lands, their bank accounts, etc) come, to me, is folly and self-delusional.
We live in great and wonderful times. The Lord has given us the means now to prepare for what is coming "tomorrow"...And therefore, if we donot use the means now, how will we maintain the end?
What comes to mind are many Scriptures... the parable of the 10 virgins, the unprofitable servant, etc....these are solemn things indeed. The good Lord giving His children space to repent...God being a jealous God indeed, and rightfully so; and then I see the professing church taken up with amusements, and building their own houses etc, while the "Lord's house" lies waste in the land...These are gut-wrenching to those that love God with all their hearts, souls, and minds to say the least.
The battle is now...Sure persecution is coming and has come, but now, now, is the blessed day God has given us by His grace to get out and make the difference and prepare ourselves for the wrath to come.
Just my "2 cents" bro Frank. Now is the time, now is the day of Salvation. To God be all glory and praise
Absolutely correct, Yeshua's boy.
You prepare for tomorrow by overcoming today and not being anxious or fearful about tomorrow.
Jesus told us not to be anxious about tomorrow, or worry about it. And how can you prepare for "what's coming", if you are not attending to and overcoming the "little" trials, today? They are not so little if they are overcoming us, right?
Those who are walking close to Christ are not obsessing about tomorrow, they are too busy fulfilling His will for today.
And do we really need men to keep telling us that gloom and doom are coming when the Word of God already tells us that all those who live in godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. One third of the NT talks about persecution. I think we get it (if we know the word). This is what overcomers have been made for. We overcome because of His life in us and therefore we should be concentrating on His life, Him. What the Church needs is not only the knowledge of Christ but faithfulness to Him. We have passed from death to life so we are dwelling in life now and should be about the Master's business of preaching the gospel, come what may. Sure would like to see more positive, annointed, overcoming, faith filled, posts.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, NEITHER LET IT BE AFRAID.
Frank, your scenario may indeed come to pass.
Abraham after the flesh means nothing to the Believer and Jesus did not think it meant anything, either when the Pharisees brashly proclaimed that "We be Abraham's seed". Jesus enlightened them as to who their father really was.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus had to explain to them that they are not doing the works of God.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
What Paul the apostle was communicating to the church in Galatians is what is important. Only they which are of faith in Christ Jesus are the "children of Abraham". Jew or Gentile, makes no difference.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
So, if the 3 big religions get together and tell us to unite because we all have Abraham as our father after the flesh, a true Christian will say no, he is not my father after the flesh.
2Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEE WHICH IS CHRIST.
The promises were made to Abraham and to Christ then, (but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ), therefore if we belong to Christ then spiritually by faith, we are Abraham's seed.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
All the religions of the world, especially the big three are stuck in the physical because the natural man does not know the things of the spirit. Therefore, all that the natural man creates is only a counterfeit in the physical of the spiritual. Abraham is not our father after the flesh. We have all died to the things of the flesh. The three religions getting together will be a mass deception for the worldly church and many who have not left it, will be caught up in the deception.
Today is indeed the day of salvation (as Yeshuasboy indicated) and those who are overcoming TODAY will shine tomorrow no matter what comes.
Julias writes.......
'You prepare for tomorrow by overcoming today and not being anxious or fearful about tomorrow.
Jesus told us not to be anxious about tomorrow, or worry about it. And how can you prepare for "what's coming", if you are not attending to and overcoming the "little" trials, today? They are not so little if they are overcoming us, right?"
Who is preaching anxiousness Julias? Are you anxious? Are you fearful when you hear of things to come? I would counsel you brother not to be fearful when you hear of things to come. Paul Washer does not seem to be fearful, nor Ravenhill nor Tozer or others who speak of such things. The only people who speak of fear and anxiousness all the time in matters relating to things to come is people like yourself as you raise up some kind of naysing straw man because you believe these things somehow have already happened.
Julias, you did not answer my previous question. Did you edit a previous reply removing a mocking disdainful comment? ..........bro Frank
HI bro Ritchie,
Surely you realize that those on the forum who speak of the persecution to come do not advocate that one should not live in Christ today or that all those who live Godly in Christ Jesus will surely suffer one level of persecution or another. Others try to say by the mere speaking of it then that creates fear or that is fear. Another charge, and this one is mainly from the world and worldly Christians is that if you speak of things to come then this is gloom and doom. Do you believe that to speak of things to come and the return of Jesus is doom and gloom?
Here is what I genuinely do not understand. There are a couple of brothers who seem to follow threads like this around just to pour cold water on it. How can that be edifying? Devotional threads and others are typically ignored by those who tend to follow certain threads around.
You write..........
"Brother Paul Washer is indeed not wrong, nor others like Leonard Ravenhill, in warning what is coming upon the Earth. For God did speak through the Apostle John, and the prophets giving them visions and words to write down."
Amen brother, then let us agree to agree :)..........bro Frank
Appolus wrote:
"Did you edit a previous reply removing a mocking disdainful comment? ..........bro Frank"
You should see some of the posts I removed and edited. Yes even as nice as I am some things should be better left unpublished or at least reworded.
Here, here, Rev!
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56484&forum=48
We should post befitting men of God, when we edit it could be repentance which the Lord graciously allows.
Matt 18:32-35
Those in restricted nations and those who serve in restricted nations believe that if you are in the hands of the Holy Spirit. Then you are safe. Brother Andrew has said the safest place to be is in the middle of the will of God.
As I have been listening to the book of Acts and thinking and reflecting on the first century Church. It came to me that the way the first-century believers handled persecution was they were filled and baptized in the Holy Spirit. We certainly see that in the case of Stephen as he faced his persecutors. He was filled with the Holy Spirit and had a vision of Jesus. I do not know if he felt the stones. But somehow the sufferings of this present world did not compare to the glory that awaited him.
This is the hope of the persecuted church. They set their eyes not on the things that are seen with your temporal. But they set their eyes on the things that are eternal. They ultimately set their eyes on Jesus.
As such I think we should set our eyes on Jesus when times of affliction or persecution comes. For by setting our eyes on Jesus. Then we can truly endure cross with a joy that is set before us just as Jesus did.
My thoughts.
Brother Blaine
I did read one of your post before you removed it. Actually I thought it was quite funny. But I know you probably didn't mean for it to be funny. Just to let you know it put a smile on my face.
But I do commend you for your self-restraint. And I need to also moderate and restrain myself. And always read those guidelines before I post.
Brother Blaine
Re-edited for additional paragraph.
Blaine
Trying to be humorous at time is good for the soul. It's going to end well for us in Christ. Good thing it's him and not us to bring the victory.
Lord bless you!
Hi Rev,
I think we should carefully think about what we post, I definately agree with that. I would say that once something is published and one is convicted of that, since it was public that one should acknowledge it publicly that they made a mistake, that would be a humble thing to do and we have seen it here before on SI. What we also get sometimes is someone who has a tight control over their image and perhaps slip up and have to change it quickly lest anyone should see that they actually think. This would not be publicly acknowledged. Yet disdain is not easily hidden and can come across in all that we write............bro Frank
Frank
Yes, protecting our spiritual appearance in the eyes of men is
Is pride and self righteousness .
If we have done wrong lets admit it and carry on. Hiding our tracks is never a good policy before God and men.
I also was wrong once hate to say.... okay maybe more than once.
"I also was wrong once hate to say.... okay maybe more than once."
Surely not Carmine, say it aint so :) Here is what I know about you and Neil and others, what you see is what you get, warts n'all not to say you have any warts :) ..........bro Frank
Brothers I too have been Hasty of my posting. God willing with the help of the Spirit trying to be more reflective before I post.
Actually I think there is a new spirit working to The Forum. True we are having spirited discussions but I think maybe the Spirit is working in His fruit of self-control. At least I pray He is working in ne that fruit.
Brother Blaine
Do we call you brother or sister? Hard to fathom your gender by your name. I would like to address you as brother or sister. But do not know which adjectives to use.
Brother Blaine
Blaine
Common name in Italy for male Italian.
Dear brother Frank,
You asked, "Do you believe that to speak of things to come and the return of Jesus is doom and gloom?"
I have no problem whatsoever with postings of news as to what is happening throughout the world with the brothers and sisters that are in Christ. There are people that I know of that just pray the Lord's will is done when they hear of these things, etc; and they have a part in the Body as well making intercession to the Lord as they are guided by the Spirit. These "prayer warriors" can be blind, deaf, disabled, or whatever... very busy in the home, mothers, small children being homeschooled, etc, that are just as important in the Lord's eyes as to the missionaries on the fields, preachers, pastors, evangelists...We mustnot be ignorant of satan's devices, nor put our heads in the sand when we see others in need and can help, and say "God bless you be warm and well-fed" while others go about in rags and starving with no place to lay their head.
There is one body with many members. The telling of news as to what is happening with the other members is one calling... preparing the Body for times ahead is another. The end of the matter to be doing all things for the glory of God, in love to God and to our neighbor.
My own concern primarily is to awake this sleeping "self-professed" church, and help them to understand the great God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ in whom they serve, that only as they abide in the Vine will they bear much fruit as to the glory of God, and they are not their own but bought with the precious Blood of Christ.
Off to Ma's for dinner. God be with you
Got it brother.
As one of my intercessors would say who it's from Italy. Chow brother.
Bro Blaine :)
I don't believe that he is wrong about the coming persecution.
I live in the south and there are a great many people who are concerned that the government is going to come and take away our fundamental freedoms and our guns. However, it does not seem like any of those people are the least bit concerned that they send their children to public schools where they spend 8 hours a day learning things from other children that are not fitting and being spoon fed day by day a message of tolerance and unity to make them fit in a post modern world. They are not concerned that their religious liberties (at least what is left of them in this country) are being redefined by the world. It is no bother to them that all the grit and the unction and all the fervency of the advancement of the kingdom of God has been sucked out of their churches and replaced with seeker friendly attractions.
The point is that the enemy has offered up a distraction to us and though we may be willing to defend our guns and land and way of life to our deaths the enemy is slaughtering our families and churches right in front of our eyes and we are tolerating it!
Let me offer up this scenario: Christianity will effectively be marginalized and modernized to fit into our society, it will become a nicey-nice religion, like Buddhism that is well respected and all inclusive. It will focus on social reform while abandoning the reformation of the soul. Effectively, true Christianity in America will be snuffed out like a candle. The last remaining embers-the true believers- will be seen as radicals, condemned by the world and the modernized religious establishment. Laws will be put into place and the preaching of the intolerant Gospel will be considered hate speech. We will be imprisoned and eventually those of us who continue will have our children taken away because of the damaging influence we have on them. Those who resist will be arrested. The world will hate us, and for the sake of peace and progress we will be killed and it will seem like they are doing a service for God because of our incredible intolerance of sin or other religions.
We are ALWAYS hanging on this precipice. We are only one Supreme Court ruling or one executive order or one national disaster away from it. The question is not IF it will come to this, but when.
All those who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
Romans 8:35-38
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ritchie, you write........
" These "prayer warriors" can be blind, deaf, disabled, or whatever... very busy in the home, mothers, small children being homeschooled, etc, that are just as important in the Lord's eyes as to the missionaries on the fields, preachers, pastors, evangelists...We mustnot be ignorant of satan's devices, nor put our heads in the sand when we see others in need and can help, and say "God bless you be warm and well-fed" while others go about in rags and starving with no place to lay their head."
Brother, I genuinely have no idea what that has to do with our subject at hand. Are you saying that there are people you know that when they see other people in need they simply put their heads in the sands? Isn't that a completely different post or thread? Maybe you can tell me the relevance to our conversation about end times and the coming persecution?..........bro Frank
Brother Frank,
In all respect and in the love of God, My final words concerning your questions is this (for I have many tasks at hand to complete) -
I think what i said has everything to do with it in the way where, I see many talking and I see few doing anything about preparing for the wrath to come, nor helping those that are suffering. As the Apostle says, Faith without works is dead
Here's a beauty sermon on the subject as well:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9113035122
Getting up in just over 3 hours - must pray, study and sleep still. Good night
Havok20x wrote,
"Let me offer up this scenario: Christianity will effectively be marginalized and modernized to fit into our society, it will become a nicey-nice religion, like Buddhism that is well respected and all inclusive. It will focus on social reform while abandoning the reformation of the soul. Effectively, true Christianity in America will be snuffed out like a candle. The last remaining embers-the true believers- will be seen as radicals, condemned by the world and the modernized religious establishment. Laws will be put into place and the preaching of the intolerant Gospel will be considered hate speech. We will be imprisoned and eventually those of us who continue will have our children taken away because of the damaging influence we have on them. Those who resist will be arrested. The world will hate us, and for the sake of peace and progress we will be killed and it will seem like they are doing a service for God because of our incredible intolerance of sin or other religions."
Your scenario is playing out right before our eyes.
Paul Washer is right on the money.
marcmc
from Havok20x:
"We are ALWAYS hanging on this precipice. We are only one Supreme Court ruling or one executive order or one national disaster away from it. The question is not IF it will come to this, but when."
My brother, this is the scenario I sense with all my heart that will "kickstart" real persecution - a national disaster. I didn't feel led to join this conversation until you added this comment.
I have heard many over the years give their opinions about nuclear bombs going off in cities, but the impression on my heart is that God HIMSELF will bring devastating disasters upon this land; supernatural devastation that can't be blamed on man. We have biblical precedent for this in the destruction of 4 cities: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim (Deut 29:23).The city of Joplin, MO was torn apart by a tornado in May of 2011. The Lord started speaking to me about natural disasters in April of 2011. Those words are still in my spirit and have never left. I weep and tremble over this city that I live in - Atlanta, GA. I believe it is marked for destruction.
When these disasters take place, God will have men and women raised up to proclaim that these are judgements from God and the people need to repent for their sins. This destruction will cause death for millions. Life in America will never be the same. The land is defiled (Lev 18:25). The "Christian God" will be blamed and they will take out their fear and anger on us.
I do not share this lightly, and there are many details I have left out. If anyone is interested, or if the Lord has shared similar things with you, I will give you my email address. I have shed many tears and have been in deep travail over what is coming. I have prayed that the Lord will remember mercy in judgement, and that many souls will come to the Lord because of this. The harvest is ready, but the laborers are few.
I submit this in trembling, for your consideration.
Renee
Bretheren I do not know which scenario that God will use to increase persecution in America. I say increase. Because we are experiencing some form of persecution. We are living in a society that's becoming increasingly hostile toward the things of Christ. Though some may dispute me. I believe the blood of the martyrs has already been shed on American soil. But can anybody argue that the society is becoming increasingly hostile toward believers.
God has warned us through prophetic men such as David Wilkerson. He is warning us now through prophetic men such as Paul Washer. All I can say is we would do well to heed their warnings.
I do not know how we can realistically prepare for persecution. But one thing that has been gripping me as I listen to the book of Acts. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit. Then I believe we can withstand any persecution that comes against us. We look at Stephen. He was filled with the Holy Spirit when he saw the Son of man standing at the right hand of the glory of God. I do not know if he felt the stones that were hitting him. But if he did it was only momentary pain. For he saw an eternal weight of glory that was waiting for him. Ultimately the Eternal One, Jesus himself.
My thoughts this Easter morning.
Blaine
Renee,
I don't disagree with you at all. Could be Yellowstone, San Andreas Fault, a Tsunami, West Coast Subduction Eathquake, or all of the above in the Lords timing. But I believe (either before or after it, it will also be the other things mentioned too - terrorist attacks, Supreme Court decisions, total economic collapse, war, "famine" meaning some type of food shortage, etc.). I believe what's coming will be comprehensive in time including potentially all these things, including natural disasters. But (just for clarity again for all those who might call this "fear-mongering") I am not walking around in fear. I believe in the midst of these historic judgements that more will turn to Christ than in the revivals of America's past (Jesus movement, great awakenings, etc.).
Amen, Brother Blaine.
Ritchie writes............
"I see many talking and I see few doing anything about preparing for the wrath to come, nor helping those that are suffering. As the Apostle says, Faith without works is dead"
I see the opposite where I live in the Bible belt. There is a church on every corner and good works abound but very little speaking of Jesus and the need for salvation, good works seeming to have replaced and asuaged the consciences of many.
James writes.......
"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
I think it is very instructive that James uses two examples when he was speaking of the works that goes along with faith. It also instructs us how to live, especially in these days and the days to come. His first example is Abraham offering up his son. Now his son represented all of his dreams and ambitions and really everything that he had lived with, but Abraham would rather lose everything that he had to be obedient to God. I believe that soon enough every Christian will face the scenario of losing everything they have if they wish to be obedient to God.
His second example is Rahab. Interesting choice. Rhab put her life on the life for the sake of God's people. If she had been found out that she was in cohorts with the spies she and all of her family would have been killed, again, everything was on the line. The is the meat of what James is talking about. We have the majority in the Bible belt who would help an old lady across the road and who feed the homeless. They feel good about this and there is nothing wrong with this, but this is the analogy part of James story, this is the part that is perfectly obvious. But his examples of Abraham and Rahab go the very heart of what it means to have faith in God, a willingness to give up everything for the Lord and if we do not have that then " faith is dead," does not exist. This is the faith that the Lord will be looking for when He returns. It is this faith that overcomes the enemy. .........bro Frank
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Some promises to keep In mind as you see all the different things happening, today.
In Jesus Christ the only faith that matters is faith that worketh by love and the love of God casts out all fear. (See also 1 Cor 13, if I have not love I am nothing).
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Someone said, "how are we preparing for the wrath of God?"
We are not appointed unto wrath
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The New Testament concept of "prophecy" is primarily that of proclamation rather than prediction; forth-telling rather than foretelling.
Hebrews 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
My brothers we must make a distinction between the wrath of God and persecution. The believer will not experience the wrath of God in that has been settled for us at the cross. The wrath of God was poured out upon Jesus Christ for our sins. And His righteousness has been given to us. John 3;31 says that the one who believes in Jesus has eternal life. But for the one who does not believe in Jesus. On him the wrath of God abides.
But Believers in Christ will experience persecution. For this has always been the history of the remnant Church. And persecution will certainly come upon the remnant church here in America.
True the enemy instigates persecution. But God always uses it for His purposes. Often to purify and perfect the bride He is calling for himself.
Simply my thoughts.
Brother Blaine
The New Testament concept of "prophecy" is primarily that of proclamation rather than prediction; forth-telling rather than foretelling.
really?
i'm confused, I was under the impression that God is the same, yesterday , today and forever.....oh, that's right, the Vine has changed!....foolish man I am.
so according to the Isimmites, just chuck out a chapter or two of what Jesus foretold in Matthew, and some verses in Acts....and Revelations? It's already happened, of course, that's according to the "gospel of the Isimmites"!
or is it the "gospel of replacement theology"?...or "supersessionism"? (maybe i'm missing another "ism") or british-israelism?...or maybe its that sweet denomination known as "The church of Jesus Christ, Christian"? or "Christian Identity"?
I get so confused, but I have you Julius to help me out of my confusion.....yes.
The coming persecution is far different than what is called the wrath of God. The NA church is a million miles from where it is suppose to be. Socially, politically, personally and spiritually it has been kicked into the corner and told to "Shut up", and it has. Our persecution will be self inflicted not righteous.
Marc mc
"Primarily" not exclusively.
Is this the same Mark as Awakened?
Perhaps our persecution to some degree may be self-inflicted. But I do believe there is a remnant faith bride that God is calling forth even in this nation. Otherwise we need to rethink Revelation 7:9-10
.......After hese things I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could count, from every NATION and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes with palm branches were in their hands and they cry out with a loud voice, saying "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb.".......
Brother I do believe that God is calling forth a remnant out of America. And because of that called out remnant persecution will come upon them because they fallow the Lamb wherever He goes.
Simply my thoughts brother
Blaine
Caps are for emphasis only.
no brother Blaine, marcmc is not me:-) We have different last names and my name is spelled with a k. But I really do love what brother marc has to say, thats for sure:-)
Our persecution can be self inflicted for godly or ungodly reasons. Ungodly, when the Church departs from the gospel, viewing their enemies as flesh and blood and then leaning on the arm of the flesh to subdue their enemies, all in Jesus name.
1 Peter 4:12-16
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
I hope it’s ok to poke my heart in here and share that I believe God’s Word referenced by the brethren in this thread reveals a distinction between God’s wrath upon the earth and the persecution of his saints in tribulation. I believe Paul Washer’s message signals correctly that we shall, as always has been the case, endure persecution as followers of Christ in this world which is not our home (John:16, Deut.:29-31). God tells us that tribulation works patience, which works experience, and then hope (Romans:5,12 and 2Thess:1). I am encouraged in Christ that He will see His Body through the persecution and tribulation that is on the doorstep in the west that so many of our dear brethren now suffer so greatly in this world. He alone will keep our eyes fixed upon Him in that day through His Holy Spirit for we are more than conquerers through Him (Romans:8).
Yesterday I was led to this sermon by Charles Wesley titled "The Cause and Cure of Earthquakes". It is a hard word and a good word (link below). I appreciate this thread because it helps to bring balance to my understanding regarding the distinction between God’s judgement/wrath and persecution/tribulation. God bless and keep every member of His body here.
http://methodistthinker.com/2011/03/14/charles-wesley-cause-and-cure-of-earthquakes/
Bro Blane writes........
"Brother I do believe that God is calling forth a remnant out of America. And because of that called out remnant persecution will come upon them because they fallow the Lamb wherever He goes."
And Fatherschild writes..........
"I am encouraged in Christ that He will see His Body through the persecution and tribulation that is on the doorstep in the west that so many of our dear brethren now suffer so greatly in this world. He alone will keep our eyes fixed upon Him in that day through His Holy Spirit for we are more than conquerers through Him"
I say amen to those sentiments. The Bible tells us that the righteous are as bold as lions and that boldness is a direct result of the Baptism in The Holy Spirit where we see Peter transformed form one who had denied the name of Jesus to save his own skin to one who boldly proclaimed the truth of Jesus to a crowd who were quite capable of ripping him to shreds.
The Holy Spirit enables us to be bold when we have to be. Those who are fearful or try to promote fear when others speak of things to come should look to the Spirit of God to dispel their fears, He will do it. We are told that perfect love casts out all fear. We are also told that we have not been given a spirit of fear but a Spirit of love and of power and of a sound mind. This Spirit of course comes more fully to us when we are faced with fearful situations because we know that God will never leave us nor forsake us and when the enemy comes in like a flood then God Himself raise up a standard in us and over us and that is why we can say with certainty, despite what those who try to promote fear in the children of God say, that we shall be and are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus and all of this is to His glory...............bro Frank
Amen brother Frank and may God quicken that boldness and soundness of mind in the very depths of our beings in Him today.
If it's self inflicted, then it's really not persecution, but chastisement. Neither is the wrath of God. One is the attack of Satn (which God still uses) & the other is discipline from a loving Father who knows what we need to correct us.
Prophecy is not just "proclamation". That's the half step away from "prophecy is just preaching" that cessationist a like John MacArthur try to spin to explain away all the passages of scripture in the NT concerning prophecy. When Agabus prophesied, it was foretelling a future famine (some historians think it was as much as 10 years in advance). And prophecy is explained in the epistle/letter of 1 Corinthains too. If by proclamation you mean, "proclaiming things only God would otherwise know by the Spirit", then yes that happens too, but predictive prophecy is in the NT also as I already said. The Prophetic gift is the seeing by the eye & spirit of God that which others do not see. It is insight that is God's insight. Sometimes into a person like a word of knowledge or discernment (like Paul turning around & telling that sorcerer they had a demon & casting it out) & sometimes it's future predictive (like Agabus signifying by the spirit a great famine coming to Jerusalem).
But also in Hebrews we see chastisement ,come in the form of pesacution ....
by jeffmar1130 wrote,
"If it's self inflicted, then it's really not persecution, but chastisement. Neither is the wrath of God. One is the attack of Satn (which God still uses) & the other is discipline from a loving Father who knows what we need to correct us."
The phase of self inflicted persecution the Church in NA is in and which will increase is the result of several mistakes.
Not for profit statues - This is why the Church and believers are broke and in debt.
Worldliness - Primarily interested in a long peaceful life here and now.
Atheism - No coherent responses to the new Athieism.
Islam - Uneducated responses to their errors and doctrine allowing it to gain the footing here that it did in Europe due to the same ignorance.
Church growth movement - too many negatives to even list
Division - Believers focusing on differences instead of unity
Gadgets - Insane infatuation with likes, views and posting pictures of your
supper.
Lack of Wisdom - Your neighbors, boss and coworkers should be asking your advice on marriage, money, kids etc all the time.
God will do it - Sitting on our hands waiting for God to do who knows what, who knows how, who knows when.
Timidity - Thinking that bold fearlessness is unchristian. The Gospel of nice.
No originality - An endless line of "me too" ideas. When anything looks successful half the churches in the country do the same thing.
This is a simple partial list which ultimately has left the Church with very little purpose outside our buildings. We abandoned the marketplace for the suburbs and tried to get the world to come and join us, and for years they just laughed but now they just want us gone. We are little more than a noisy nuisance. It's not God or Satan its us.
marcmc
Hi all,
Interesting discussion about one of our favorite topics on SI.
I think their are times in Church History of persecution and times when their is not persecution.
Some people in past generations have died for Christ while others like for instance Billy Graham lives peacefully to a ripe old age.Althogh he preached to millions the gospel and Jesus as Savior no persecution.
Also can we separate America from the rest of the world so easily the way we do on SI.
Can we preach persecution without Hope? as well.The only hope I see in the discussions about persecution is "be prepared".This advice is about as useful as light house in a a desert as their are no boats.
Yours Staff
crazy how I see in these forums sometimes people texting over each other... It indeed makes me sad.
A good word Frank on faith as described in James indeed.
My heart goes out to those that "in the last day" when their oil will run out in the night... This is why I choose to warn in love.
And not just speak of the end, but of the means to obtain it, which to me, the end being, "Be filled with the Spirit", abounding in fruit to the glory of God; although, walking in meekness and in the fear of God, abiding in Christ, praying, taking every thought captive to His Word, etc the means to obtain..."For without Him we can do nothing"
The gracious God, and tender mercies of the Lord Christ Jesus, be with you all.
by marcmc on 2016/3/28 6:38:08by jeffmar1130 wrote,
"If it's self inflicted, then it's really not persecution, but chastisement. Neither is the wrath of God. One is the attack of Satn (which God still uses) & the other is discipline from a loving Father who knows what we need to correct us."
The phase of self inflicted persecution the Church in NA is in and which will increase is the result of several mistakes.
Not for profit statues - This is why the Church and believers are broke and in debt.
Worldliness - Primarily interested in a long peaceful life here and now.
Atheism - No coherent responses to the new Athieism.
Islam - Uneducated responses to their errors and doctrine allowing it to gain the footing here that it did in Europe due to the same ignorance.
Church growth movement - too many negatives to even list
Division - Believers focusing on differences instead of unity
Gadgets - Insane infatuation with likes, views and posting pictures of your
supper.
Lack of Wisdom - Your neighbors, boss and coworkers should be asking your advice on marriage, money, kids etc all the time.
God will do it - Sitting on our hands waiting for God to do who knows what, who knows how, who knows when.
Timidity - Thinking that bold fearlessness is unchristian. The Gospel of nice.
No originality - An endless line of "me too" ideas. When anything looks successful half the churches in the country do the same thing.This is a simple partial list which ultimately has left the Church with very little purpose outside our buildings. We abandoned the marketplace for the suburbs and tried to get the world to come and join us, and for years they just laughed but now they just want us gone. We are little more than a noisy nuisance. It's not God or Satan its us.
Marcmc,
I was going to add to your list the "church's refusal to obey the Lord's command to "come out of her my people" (the religious system) is causing so many problems in individual's lives and by extension the body of Christ. But, God knows how to Father His children and sometimes it is not pleasant. (Heb 12). But the purpose of chastisement will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness as He "shakes all that can be shaken today until that which cannot be shaken, remains."
We should not refuse the "shaking" from God that is taking place in our lives as it is for our benefit not our hurt.
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