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Did He or didn't He? Jewish views of the Resurrection of Jesus

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Did He Or Didn't He? Jewish Views of the Resurrection of Jesus

by David M. (Jews for Jesus Article)

Jewish scholars have paid more attention to the person of Y'shua (Jesus) in the last hundred years than they have in the previous nineteen hundred. None deny his Jewishness. After all, Jesus was born to a Jewish mother, lived in Israel and taught a group of Jewish disciples. He also celebrated Jewish holidays. Modern Jewish theologian and rabbi, Pinchas Lapide, notes:

The love of Jesus and the academic interest in him and his impact were implanted in me by Jewish teachers like Joseph Klausner, for whom Jesus was the most Jewish of all Jews," Martin Buber, who perceived him as "his great brother," and Leo Baeck, the last luminary of the German school of rabbis, who in the year 1938 at the time of the Nazi Kristallnacht managed to write of him: "We see before us a man who according to all the signs of his personality discloses the Jewish character, in whom the purity and worth of Judaism is so specially and so clearly revealed.1

The main areas of debate and speculation among Jewish scholars about Jesus concern his words. Which did he actually say and which, if any, were added later by other writers who wanted to put forth their own versions of his message?

Did Jesus live? No dispute. Did he die? Absolutely. Yet one issue which is rarely examined by Jewish scholars is the historical event upon which his message stands or falls: his resurrection from the dead. It is the belief in this event which his first century followers took to heart and boldly proclaimed to the rest of the world. It is the central claim of the New Testament. One of his followers, Paul, put it this way:

If we hoped in Messiah in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Messiah has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15: 19-20

Until recently, most Orthodox Jews could reject the resurrection of Y'shua, on the basis that they do not accept the idea of a Messiah who dies and is then resurrected. However, in the summer of 1996 a curious situation developed in the Orthodox community. The Lubavitch Chasidim were hailing their rebbe, the late Menachem Mendel Schneerson, as King Messiah. He had died two years earlier, yet they were expecting him to rise from his grave. Other Orthodox Jews found this notion to be an embarrassment. Then, the membership of the of the Rabbinical Council of America (1,000 Orthodox rabbis) passed a resolution stating,

There is not and has never been a place in Judaism for the belief that Mashiach ben David will bring his Messianic mission only to experience death, burial and resurrection before completing it.2

In response to this, noted Orthodox rabbi, Ahron Soloveitchik (Yeshiva University dean and head of Brisk Yeshiva in Chicago) offered his own comments. While he stated that he did not believe Menachem Schneerson to be the Messiah, he said that the idea of a Messiah who dies and is later resurrected "cannot be dismissed as a belief that is outside the pale of orthodoxy."3

This quote fueled the controversy even more, as Lubavitch rabbis were quick to embrace his words and non-Lubavitch rabbis were just as quick to explain how Soloveitchik's words were taken out of context.

Today, as some Lubavitch still fervently believe in Schneerson's return, the debate over the concept of a dead and resurrected Messiah continues.

In light of the renewed interest in the Jewish community concerning the death and resurrection of Messiah, it is time for another look at the resurrection claims of Y'shua. This kind of inquiry may be too threatening to many Jews. For the Lubavitchers who now believe in the death and resurrection of Messiah, considering Jesus' claims would cast doubt on their own convictions regarding Menachem Schneerson. Despite this open debate among the Orthodox concerning resurrection, Y'shua remains a non-candidate for the position of Messiah.

For most non-Orthodox Jews, however, there is a variety of other reasons to reject the resurrection of Y'shua. The Jewish atheist, for example, will categorically deny the supernatural. Along with the parting of the Red Sea, the provision of manna in the wilderness, and the sun standing still, resurrection is not a possibility.

The Jewish agnostic believes that since we can't know one way or the other, the issue is irrelevant to pursue. "How can we judge," the agnostic postures, "nearly two thousand years later, the veracity of supposed 'eye-witness accounts.'"

Others are more pragmatic and espouse that since they have never seen anyone rise from the dead, it is simply not logical to believe in such a thing.

Finally, there is a cultural response from the Jewish community which often makes the issue a moot point long before it is ever taken seriously. Namely, "We Jews don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead because Jesus is not for us Jews to consider--period."

But whether or not the rabbis or the secularists or agnostics give us permission to believe, that does not make it true or false. The resurrection of Y'shua, as with any historical event, must be explored and examined on the weight of the evidence. It is not logical to say that it is okay for Gentiles to believe in the resurrection but it is not acceptable for Jews to believe. Either it happened or it didn't. As Maimonides once declared,

A truth, once it is established by proof, neither gains additional force from its acceptance by all scholars, nor loses any force if all reject it...4

So, exactly what evidence is there to support the claim that Y'shua rose from the dead?

Evidence from the New Testament

Some people will automatically question the documents of the New Testament when attempting to uncover the "historical Jesus." The assumption is that these writers were biased, attempting to interject their own agenda rather than recording what actually happened. But this attitude often stems more from our modern age of cynicism than from any familiarity with the New Testament itself. It is amazing that so many people who have little direct knowledge of the New Testament have dogmatic ideas about its contradictions or its historical inaccuracy. A familiarity with the New Testament should be the starting point of any discussion about Y'shua, if only to know what is the traditional view.

The first four books of the New Testament are called the gospels, the biographies of the life of Y'shua. Each one gives the account from the writer's own vantage point and all four mention the resurrection. When Y'shua was on the cross, his followers were defeated and faithless as they did not understand the necessity for his death. After the resurrection, Y'shua physically appeared to them and from then on, we see changed behavior in their lives. No longer were they cowardly and bumbling, but rather they were transformed into bold proclaimers of the message of the resurrection.

Following the gospel accounts is the book of Acts, which records the history of the first generation of Jewish followers who began to take this message around the world. Their message focused on the empty tomb. The remainder of the books in the New Testament (with one exception) consist of instructional letters, in which the resurrection is mentioned repeatedly as the basis for this faith.

History, it is said, is written by the winners. But at the time of the writing of the New Testament, the followers of Y'shua were a small, persecuted minority. They were hardly the group in power, able to say whatever they pleased. And as for their agenda, they felt compelled to promote the belief that Y'shua rose from the dead. Why else would the New Testament contain such embarrassingly truthful events of the fear, faithlessness and sin of the very community which was promoting this message?

The best way to recognize that the New Testament is actually an historical document is to read it. It is hard to come up with any other conclusion. One of the most famous Jews of this century did just that and discovered something quite remarkable. In a 1929 interview in the Saturday Evening Post, Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in the historical Jesus and he replied:

Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.5

The same documents which tell us that Y'shua lived also mention that he died and rose again. While no serious scholar doubts that Y'shua walked among us, skeptics (both Jewish and gentile) frequently attempt to extract the real history from these documents and throw away what they believe to be myth. Each year a new set of scholars steps up to the plate in an attempt to knock down the traditional life of Y'shua. These new positions are then readily embraced by those who are looking for reasons not to believe. Yet, by the following year a whole new school of thought emerges, taking exception with the previous year's scholarship and going off in a new direction. The Jesus Seminar is one popular example of this phenomenon.

We are left with the question: Were these first century Jewish believers in Jesus the most brilliant deceivers in history, able to interweave truth and fiction in a way that has not been reproduced or uncovered by centuries of challengers, or were they simply sharing the historical events as they happened when they described the resurrection of Y'shua? Until a compelling and lasting alternative is produced, the New Testament must be taken seriously when discussing the resurrection of Y'shua.

Evidence from Counter-Theories

What are some of the alternative explanations to these historical events? And what degree of faith does it take to believe these counter-theories?

1. Stolen by the Disciples

One popular theory about the resurrection, which is even mentioned in the New Testament itself as a charge by Jesus' detractors, is that the disciples stole the body. This provides a convenient excuse not to pursue the issue further, but it ignores the facts.

Fact one: Had the body been stolen by his followers, all that would be needed to disprove the disciples' claim would be to produce the body. No body has ever been produced.

Fact two: There were Roman guards at the site of the tomb. How, then could any of Jesus' followers have stolen his body?

Fact three: There was a giant stone covering the tomb, which would have taken several people to move. The guards could not have overlooked such an operation.

Fact four: Historically, we know that the early followers of Y'shua were persecuted for their belief. They were offered two options: renounce their belief in the resurrection or die. It seems unlikely that, were the disciples to have stolen the body, they would have all been ready to die rather than confess their deeds. It is true that people die everyday for beliefs which are not true. But these are lies which they fully believe to be true. How often do people die for what they know to be a fabrication?

Fact five: Whatever else can be said about the original followers of Y'shua, they themselves certainly believed that Y'shua rose from the dead. They did not steal the body.

2. Swoon Theory

This position states that Y'shua went to the cross and that his hands and feet were pierced, but that he did not actually die. Rather, he merely fainted. Then, after being placed in a damp tomb-bleeding and without food or water for three days-- Y'shua was revived and was healed. He then somehow rolled away the stone, got past the guards and went on to tell others that he had indeed risen from the dead.

One offshoot of this theory came from the late Hugh Schoenfeld in his best selling book, The Passover Plot. Schoenfeld believed that it was Y'shua's plan to pretend to be the Messiah and that he attempted to fake his death by being given a drug (which would have made him swoon, giving the appearance of death). This plan was thwarted when a Roman soldier struck a spear into his side, which caused his death. The body was then hidden and when Y'shua's followers saw "an unknown young man," they mistook him for their risen Messiah.

Schoenfeld gave no reason as to why he accepted much of the New Testament as true and why he regarded some portions as suspect. Perhaps he would have been better off denying that Y'shua ever existed. At least then he would not have been promoting a theory which takes more of a leap of faith than the New Testament account itself. But he knew, as all skeptics do, that the New Testament cannot be dismissed lightly. It is a cohesive, coherent and convincing book.

3. One of Many Resurrections

While Hugh Schoenfeld accepted most of the New Testament as reliable history, only to take a detour around the resurrection, another modern Jewish scholar presents an equally interesting hypothesis. Pinchas Lapide is an orthodox Jewish scholar who has a very unorthodox view of the resurrection of Y'shua. He went so far as to declare,

I accept the resurrection of Easter Sunday not as an invention of the community of disciples, but as an historical event.6

Lapide examined the New Testament and concluded that the recorded events are too rooted in history for there to be any major revisions or deceptions involved in the writing. He believes that Y'shua physically rose from the dead. Amazingly, Lapide falls short of recognizing the implications of this truth for his own life. In his book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Lapide regards Y'shua as a type of role model for gentiles to prepare them for the coming of the Jewish Messiah. To reach this viewpoint, Lapide had to reject the very same documents which were the basis for his belief in Y'shua's resurrection in the first place. Indeed, the New Testament mentions on virtually every page the fact that Y'shua is the promised Messiah, the one whose coming was foretold by Moses and the Jewish prophets. There is no consistency or logic in Lapide's argument.

Evidence from Changed Lives

One response to all these "theories" is to say, "Who's to say what is true? It's all a matter of speculation." After all, one can reason, even in this century we are presented with mysteries to which we probably won't get answers--What ever happened to Amelia Earhardt? Who killed Kennedy? Was there a conspiracy in the death of Martin Luther King?

To some people, the controversy over these events is proof that we cannot possibly know for sure what happened concerning an incident which occurred almost two millennia ago.

However, the evidence for the resurrection of Y'shua goes far beyond the discussion of source documents and historical records. In fact, evidence is still being presented today as individuals are experiencing the changed life which is the result of that resurrection.

Y'shua was not a mere victim of a mob. Nor was his death an accident. It was the very purpose of his mission. He gave up his life as an atonement for sin. His words mean nothing apart from this final action. The "good news" is that the Messiah willingly stood in our place and, by dying, took the penalty which rightfully belongs to each one of us. But he didn't stay dead. By rising from the grave he defeated the power of sin and death and enables individuals to have a new relationship with God. And it is this power-- the power of the resurrection--which is available to anyone who believes. This power has been changing lives (of both Jews and gentiles) since the first century.

One Jewish man who knew of this life-changing experience was Alfred Edersheim, the British scholar and author of the last century. His book, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, was originally published in the 1880's and is still considered one of the most authoritative sources on the subject. His Jewish view of Y'shua pre-dated the more recent wave of Jewish scholars who have been increasingly curious about the New Testament. To conclude his chapter on the resurrection he writes,

The importance of all this can not be adequately expressed in words. A dead Christ might have been a Teacher and Wonder-worker, and remembered and loved as such. But only a risen and Living Christ could be the Saviour, the Life, and the Life-Giver--and as such preached to all men. And of this most blessed truth we have the fullest and most unquestionable evidence. 7

There is only one reason why a Jew should believe in Y'shua. It is the same reason why a gentile should believe. It has nothing to do with convenience or social standing. Nor does it have anything to do with Y'shua's good moral teachings. The only reason anyone should be for Y'shua is because of who he is and what he has done:

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Messiah Y'shua came into the world to save sinners.

1 Timothy 1:15

The claims of Y'shua stand alone, even when compared with the sayings of other religious leaders. And to punctuate his claims there is an historical event which stands as a challenge. The New Testament does not present the resurrection of Y'shua as merely part of a creed that must be followed by insiders. It is presented to all people as an historical fact, and there are only two possible responses to it. Either it happened or it didn't.

What do you think? Will your conclusion be determined by the reflex of tradition? Will you dismiss the issue because of twentieth century pre-suppositions? Or will you choose to explore an ancient tomb--where all too few have dared to look.

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thank you and God bless you David Winter.

personally, I never "joined" Jews for Jesus, nor did I ever join the Assemblies of God, much the same way I never attended yeshiva, nor a seminary.

too much "head thought". I don't need "evidence", I didn't need it, when I was 7, and walked into the synagogue, willingly , and was hit by a soft Blast, God is real, Baruch Hashem! I didn't need evidence when God was pleased to crush me on a lonely horse ranch in May 2002, and revealed His Son to me and in me. No human man spoke a word to me in either instance.

My curiosity NOW, dear brother, is what this ill-willed gaggle of "replacement theologists" who seem to have latched themselves onto this forum, like a deer tick would when one goes out to cut firewood, as they go about spewing their doctrine of demons.

or maybe they'll just let your posting alone to recede into the forum.

after all, satan is crafty and cunning, and full of guile.

But, bless you for this read, on this Day, God love you, gentle man, neil

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Good article, David. Did you write it?

Thanks for posting it.

"There is only one reason why a Jew should believe in Y'shua. It is the same reason why a gentile should believe. It has nothing to do with convenience or social standing. Nor does it have anything to do with Y'shua's good moral teachings. The only reason anyone should be for Y'shua is because of who he is and what he has done:

It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Messiah Y'shua came into the world to save sinners.

Amen!

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Neil

You have your answer, satan does not sleep but God will continue to deal
with the deceitful workers that frequent (and I do mean frequent) this place. Cunning and crafty false professors of religion are not just in the catholic
system obviously.
Anyway can we please get back to bashing the money preachers for mutual edification?

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Anyway can we please get back to bashing the money preachers for mutual edification?

Paisan, I get no edification from any of this, it grieves me, breaks my heart, puts me on my back weeping....and that GFA fellow, one that loves and worships gold? leave him alone, he faces the justice system, which is good, the courts, law and justice, which opine that a man is innocent until proven guilty...in a court of law. sometimes justice is subverted, but a Higher Court will eventually come to play, and that is the Judgement Seat of God, which if you have run afoul, and run amok on EARTH?......oh, shudder and quake, coz NO MAN can subvert the Judgement of God, woe be to the fleshling that had tried to "game" God whilst on earth.

The LORD GOD, Who can fling the devil and the beast into the lake of fire with His Mighty Arm?...and man is so foolish to think he can outwit the Master of the Universe?...or these poor "total depravity" souls that in their confusion hide underneath the pews, to "hide" from God, as they try and out do one another, as to see who is the most lowest of low?

or this one below here?....so "smart and slick"? he might be able to fool some of the saints all of the time, or all of the saints some of the time, but he's not fooling God, and one awful Day, he might hear the Voice of Messiah, say those dreadful Words....."I NEVER KNEW YOU"...just the thought of that DREAD, makes me weep.

No....a Simple faith is best, like a child. I can still see my now 20 year old son, at 4, running with reckless love and abandon into my open arms, hugging and kissing him, such is the Way with us and God.....and Praise His Name, even though we don't run towards each other, we still embrace with hugs and kisses, because he is my son, and this one or that one is a Child of God....run into His Arms with reckless abandon and Love, this is the Way. amen.

God love you, my paisan or as we say, "be good", neil

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Neil

Thank you for your kind admonishment. And not just because you are Jewish
and Italian either. (although that helps)

Lord bless you always!

D
docs

/My curiosity NOW, dear brother, is what this ill-willed gaggle of "replacement theologists" who seem to have latched themselves onto this forum, like a deer tick would when one goes out to cut firewood, as they go about spewing their doctrine of demons.

or maybe they'll just let your posting alone to recede into the forum.

after all, satan is crafty and cunning, and full of guile. (END)

Speaking as truly and sincerely as I can, have you ever considered that on a forum this large and broad and varied that it is logical that there would be believers who hold the view you oppose. I don't believe in this view myself yet there are large segments of the church who do so isn't it somewhat logical that this view also would be represented on a broad and varied forum such as this? Some are undoubtedly pre-trib on this forum and some aren't. It's inevitable this would be since a large part of the church are pre-trib rapture in their views. The moderators have set up no rules to bar those of differing opinions if they are believers within a reasonable scope of orthodox belief when to comes to Christianity and doctrine (Christ's deity, one atonement for all time etc.). What has struck me is the INSTANT NASTINESS AT THE DROP OF A HAT that has of late accompanied the debate and discussions on what is better known as "replacement theology." It's gone on for months now. In my opinion, this low level of diatribe and the many barbed and, from my view point, unnecessary personal insults and accusations that have accompanied it have been detrimental to the whole argument and the spirit the forum wants to maintain as people dialog with one another. How can there not be divergent views on this subject in a forum so wide and composed of so many believers? Those with a different view are not necessarily and automatically enemies in Christ I don't think and respectful dialog can go a long way in helping us see what the other person really means when they say certain things. Many times when a dialog has begun in the area we are speaking of it has quickly been derailed by the most carnal and untrue accusations being hurled and for all practical purposes well meaning threads have been ruined before they really even get off of the ground. I would rather speak openly and respectfully with those who disagree with me than automatically alienating them from the start. Then nothing is accomplished. I'm not pointing the finger directly at you per say since everyone could likely ratchet things up a notch. I didn't plan on writing this much so I'll try and end here pretty quickly. Honestly speaking though, the answers and comments from those who believe in replacement theology have been more respectful and civil than many of those from the other point of view. It has been detrimental and we can all do better. I guess this has been building in me for a while so bear with me I pray. But when one thread devolves into unsavory personal insults and malicious accusations made in the heat of the moment it has an effect on the whole forum and this has to be taken into consideration also. I can almost guarantee that many on the forum who have not taken part in the discussions have been disgusted and revolted and these good folks need to be given all due consideration. This forum is not a few but many and is big and varied in its make up so opposing views are not really a sign of weakness but are inevitable since the church at large is presently so big and varied. I personally for one think a more Christian like level of self moderation and foresight of comments can be employed and I lobby strongly in behalf of this.

I remain your brother I hope and remain one who believes that as prophecy itself is literally worked out in a visible manner in the world that that in itself will be a tangible answer to many eschatological views and I remain one who believes that the risen Christ who ascended from Israel will once again return to Israel at His second advent.

Blessings.

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I am NOT ducking your post and concerns, I want to with all my heart address what you so thoughtfully wrote, but I have this second, and incredible amount of admin and physical chores to do, and I am such a slow typist (and take ten minutes to ponder the most simple of thoughts) I have to get moving...quick.....and I need to do you justice in explaining why I might seem intemperate, or divisive......and let me just write one thing, in light of 1700 years of "church" history, I can draw a straight line from "replacement theology".....to accusations of "deicide"/forced conversions/inquisitions/outright murder and rape, ie pogroms/land confiscation/the most hideous writing about us Jews from what would be considered "church fathers", etc.....going then into lets say, "British-Israelism"...into its deviant American form, "Christian Identity"...and all of it, just rank demonically inspired hatred of the Jews...which is rather odd,considering the Vine....and i'll post this again, but what really amped my ire, was this Frontline, entitled "Netanyahu At War"....its worth the watch, because I always knew President Obama was no friend of Israel, but I didn't know the depth of his hatred, this documentary is well worth your time, and NO ONE can accuse Frontline (PBS) of being "pro-Israel"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/netanyahu-at-war/

bless you for your forbearance, neil

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docs

I just cleaned the droppings out of the chicken roosts and gathered the eggs. So I know about doing chores as of late. I've been house sitting for a couple from my local church who live in the countryside here while they have been in Israel for six weeks witnessing and ministering. Thety are due back this very day after these six weeks and I look forward to seeing their faces and hearing their reports. But carry on with those chores brother, no problem. Take your time, there is no rush for anything by way of reply.

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edited:

docs,

Your post pretty much nails it!

Basically what Neil is telling you is that he practices "guilt by association" and he is going to continue to. So, if someone believes a certain way about future events, the Kingdom of God, end times events, Revelation, etc, they will be stomped on mercilessly with no let up because they are no better than these other historical people he mentioned. He basically has become just like the enemy he hates, turning into a hater himself towards people that he knows nothing about. The way he has talked to me and others in this forum, I would not put it past him to shoot me if I was standing in front of him, because he kills with his words, what would stop him from consummating his evil speech?

Your response below should also be directed to Rev_Enue and Notdarkyet. It is a noble thing you are doing but I think it will fall on empty ears. These three are like the "mafia" enforcers in this forum and those who say nothing, when they unjustly accuse and slander good brothers, seem to be employing them. I hope I am wrong. Maybe others are just scare of their roar. Why do others stand back and let these guys defame and slander men? It's is hard not to be disappointed with many in this forum. Only you have had the courage to say anything and then when you do they shrink back and make nice-nice when you say anything. But, their "sweetness" to those they love will be short lived as their heart is once again revealed when someone espouses a different view. They don't want to have any conversations and don't want anyone else to have any conversation on alternate Christian beliefs regarding the Kingdom of God, future events, and basically spiritual things in general. And you are right, there are many good Christians that have alternate beliefs about future events who wish no men any harm and never espouse harm to any men.

They are jumping to conclusions before they even hear the matter and have pretty much shut everyone else down with their bully tactics. The forum has allowed that to happen. I am truly sorry for all those in this forum that have to bear with their poisonous attitudes. I walk in forgiveness, so I have no bitterness and am willing and ready to be their brother. I just wish they would hear the matter before answering it. What does Appolas often say, "Play the ball not the man"?

Sorry your thread/subject has been lost. They run a lot of interference (rudeness), tag teaming and high fiving each other not on a good post, but only when someone has been attacked in a matter that pleases them. Then the high-fives come out. So sad. They don't even know what they are defending because they don't wait to hear the matter.

This is one of the very, very few times I defend myself and others, but it also will prove pointless and fruitless. Sure am glad the Bereans did not run Paul out of town. The Judaizers certainly did not have ears to ear and always sought to shut him down and even kill him.

How will someone else be treated regarding a different subject that these 3 bouncers don't agree with? One can only guess.

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just to read the below, indicates that there is a "mask" of sorts that is either put on, or taken off.....in the case of the post below, the mask is off, doesn't deny or explain his "belief" in "replacement theology", just accusations, and as you know, the name of the dark one, is the "accuser".

I just ran in for a second.....I address this later, neil

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docs,,,

Unfortunately, you are not going to get anywhere. As I expected, he is blameshifting. The one who hurls unfounded accusations (doesn't know me) is calling me an accuser because I am telling the truth. See this is what happens with these people docs when you try to defend yourself and that is why I don't do it. They take your words and twist them. In other words, the excuse he is making for his behavior is because of my posting. He cannot justify his attitude so he shifts the blame back to me. Fun, fun, fun, yet very juvenile!

I think just try to ignore bullies in the sandbox and have a conversation as we have been trying to do. Incoming missiles will take place.

T
TMK

To be entirely honest, I am not 100% clear on what the basis of the vitriol is.

This is because I *THINK* that those who do not hold to "replacement theology" still believe that Jews must repent and believe in Jesus in order to be saved. And I know those who hold to "replacement theology" also believe this. So I think, and I may be wrong, that there is common ground on this most vital and all-important point.

Now, if a certain segment of those who do not hold to "replacement theology" do not believe that Jews need to repent and believe in Jesus as messiah in order to be saved(John Hagee maybe?, the RC church, lately) then that is a whole different issue.

I personally know of no "replacement theologians" who are anti-Israel or who hate Jews. Sure they may be out there but if that is their attitude they are not born again.

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speak all the ill of me you want, make all the accusations on my character you want, but the fact remains, "replacement theology is the begotten of the pit, the doctrine of demons, and I will say to you again:

repent of your wickedness.

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post edited.

Neil, because of your juvenile tantrums and blameshifting I am going to put you on ignore. I have learned as a father that bad behavior should never be rewarded or entered into conversation with. Email me if you change your attitude. Your two buddies are on ignore, too. They can send me an email if they decide to be fair-minded and stop the juvenile foolishness.

TMK,

Definitely not anti-Israel. I am not anti-anybody and all must come through Jesus Christ. He is the only Door.

Docs, so very sorry about your thread. I thought it could have been a good one. I am the object of their disdain today, but if the moderators don't deal with them, someone tomorrow will be the object of their disdain and hateful responses. I can handle bullies but really sorry everyone else has to put up with this.

Docs, original posts was about you, Neil and you skirted it by blameshifting to me. The light is being shone on you but you can't deal with it, so you blame me.

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Neil

He is obviously trying to deflect away from his obvious agenda and most here are delightfully seduced by his/her "kind" mannerisms. But some get it judging by the correspondence I have received. Satan is an angel of light, soft and syrupy nice as when it suits them.

Now get back to your chores.

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IF....telling you to repent of your wickedness, is a "juvenile tantrum", then you don't have the right end of the stick, as "replacement theology" is plain wicked theology.

(and to even READ, that you accused me of "gun violence" towards you below, is just plain bizarre posting)

Todd, when Julius writes "Definitely not anti-Israel."....just ask him, what his definition of "Israel" is, or as he puts it, "the Israel of God" ?....there you will see the truth of such twisted theology, which is just Yahwistic "thievery".....

and Julius, "buddies"......I have brothers and sisters on this forum, and of course you never answered my question of being a regular habitué of the website, "zerohedge" and its plethora of outright virulent Jew haters there.....but that's the pattern, you ignore any kind of question, and are definitely not transparent or authentic as a man.

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Edit:

Doc addressed his post to you. You still have to deal with that.

I will answer your questions or rather interrogations. Zerohedge, the only time I ever read anything on that website is when another website linked to it. I have no userid and it is not bookmarked in my browser, but your association by guilt is noted. Maybe read an article 2 or 3 times on it. How often do you read it? What about all the other websites you find yourself reading, are you also associated with them because you read something on them. Apply your own standards to yourself!

I agree, the comments on zerohedge are horrible and all my friends love Jews and anyone and everyone else. But, here I go again defending myself.

My definition of Israel from the scriptures does not make me a Jew hater. If so, tell me why? Because you are about to indict thousands and thousands of born-again believers. That is slander and unjustified accusations.

And with the hate you spew towards me on the forum, tell me if I could really trust you face to face? And why? You don't sound like a very nice chap.

I broke my rule about ignoring you, but only because you are lying about me and you get away with it with utter impunity.

Conversation ended. You are not a pleasant fellow.

S
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as Julius has had in the past, no qualms, about going back and removing verbiage that would cast a bad light on himself, I thought it wise to capture a bit of his first "broadside" incoherent accusations of my person, BEFORE the thought it best to remove them, occurred to him.

i read them, and its just a small snippet of a rather incoherent, but hideous accusatory posting:

Basically what Neil is telling you is that he practices "guilt by association" and he is going to continue to. So, if someone believes a certain way about future events, the Kingdom of God, end times events, Revelation, etc, they will be stomped on mercilessly with no let up because they are no better than these other historical people he mentioned. He basically has become just like the enemy he hates, turning into a hater himself towards people that he knows nothing about. The way he has talked to me and others in this forum, I would not put it past him to shoot me if I was standing in front of him, because he kills with his words, what would stop him from consummating his evil speech?

here's the portion that takes my breath away, especially in the light that many saints here, actually KNOW me:

" The way he has talked to me and others in this forum, I would not put it past him to shoot me if I was standing in front of him, because he kills with his words, what would stop him from consummating his evil speech?"

oh my...my mentor(one of them)and i have had a long running discussion/rumination on where the "line" is between outright demonic possession and mental illness....those four lines bring those many conversations back to mind.

there was a recent period, when brother Greg re-opened the forum, and it seemed that Julius took a hiatus from posting for two weeks, maybe a week....and the fellowship was sweet, then he came back.

i have no idea what a "preterist" is, (nor Praise God does he want me to)....i have no public opinion of "end times" or to parse "Revelations" publicly, any of that, so i have no idea what "mafia gang" Julius is going on about.

this is just sad, and the way of the world.

S
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as you wrote.."i am"

" You don't sound like a very nice chap. "

"You are not a pleasant fellow. "

amen, you are right......feel better?


S
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God bless you, Neil. Say what you will, I can do nothing, I choose to do nothing.

But, If I am your enemy, why don't you try to win me to Christ? You and the other two? Obviously, you don't consider me a brother, so is this how you show your enemies the love of Christ? You have never even tried to minister to me, not once (if you truly thought I had a demon).

May the Lord bless you and keep you and make His face shine upon you. May He fulfill your deepest desires to be close to Him, and meet your every need. I will not fight you, but I will continue to have conversations with brothers and sisters. Our battle is not with flesh and blood, is it?

Docs,

I would like to see a thread entitled, "Why the whole book of Revelation is applicable to every saint in every generation".

It is absolutely pertinent and edifying to all saints in all centuries.

It is after all, the revelation of Jesus Christ.

S
sermonindex

The Evil of Replacement Theology
The Historical Abuse of the Jews by the Church
=======================================

I. Introduction

I was raised in a militantly Amillennial church. By that I mean that you could be disfellowshipped from the church for having any other prophetic viewpoint.

We seldom ever heard any preaching about end time Bible prophecy. The classic sermon within our denomination was one that boldly stated, "There is not one verse in the Bible that even implies that Jesus will ever put His feet on this earth again!”

A Shocking Discovery

So, you can imagine how shocked I was at age 12 when I was thumbing though the Bible and discovered Zechariah 14. It was very simple to understand. It said that the Messiah would return to the Mount of Olives, that the mount would split in half when His feet touched it, that He would speak a supernatural word that would destroy all the armies around Jerusalem, and that on that day He would become "king over all the earth.”

I had always been taught that the Bible meant what it said, so I found this passage to be very confusing, since my pastor had taught that Jesus was never returning to this earth. So, I decided to confront my pastor with it, and I did so in fear and trembling.

I’ll never forget that encounter. I reminded him of what he had been teaching, and then I asked him to tell me the meaning of Zechariah 14:1-9. He pulled out his Bible and read the passage and then seemed to sit there and study it quietly for an eternity. Finally, he looked up, pointed his finger in my face, and said, "Son, I don’t know what this passage means, but I can guarantee you one thing ”” it doesn’t mean what it says!”

Well, that was hard for me to swallow. Again, I had been taught that the Bible meant what it said. And being a stubborn Irishman, I decided to seek other opinions. One preacher explained to me that all Old Testament prophecies had been fulfilled. "I have no idea when or where this prophecy was fulfilled,” he said, "but I can guarantee you one thing, it has been fulfilled, because all the prophecies in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Jesus.”

When I was about 18 years old, a preacher came to town who was a graduate of a seminary. He repeated the same old claim about there not being a single verse in the Bible that implies that Jesus will ever put His feet on this earth again. After his sermon, I confronted him with Zechariah 14. He didn’t even blink. He knew the passage by heart. He just blurted out, "Apocalyptic!” I had no idea what he was talking about. I didn’t know if that was a theory or a disease. But he was a seminary graduate, so I accepted his explanation.

When I started preaching in my early 20s, I would confidently proclaim that Jesus was never going to put His foot on this earth again. Once, a little old lady in tennis shoes came up to me afterwards and asked, "What about Zechariah 14?” I snapped, "Apocalyptic!” It scared her to death, and she turned and ran. I didn’t know what I was talking about, and neither did she.

I didn’t realize it at the time, but I had been introduced to the allegorical interpretation of Scripture. The official position of my church was that everything in the Bible means exactly what it says unless it is talking about the Second Coming of Jesus, in which case it never means what it says!

Discovery of Replacement Theology and Deliverance From It

I was also introduced to Replacement Theology, although no one in our denomination really knew what that was. You will find it hard to believe how I was confronted with this unbiblical concept. I was taught that it was sinful to pray the Lord’s prayer! When I asked why, I was told, "The Lord’s prayer is irrelevant to modern day Christians because it has already been answered. The prayer makes the plea, ‘Thy kingdom come,’ and the kingdom has already come in the form of the Church.”

Another way in which I was subjected to the attitude of Replacement Theology was through the teaching that all of the Old Testament had been nailed to the Cross and was therefore irrelevant to Christianity. We called ourselves "A New Testament Church,” and when the minister told us to be sure and bring our Bibles to church, we knew he meant our New Testaments. Many of us did not even own a complete Bible.

The beginning of my liberation from these viewpoints occurred when I was about 30 years old. I started reading the Minor Prophets, and I was captivated by them. Their messages seemed so relevant to modern day problems. And, once again, it was the book of Zechariah that proved to be my turning point. After reading it through from start to finish for the first time in my life, I was impacted by the fact that it is full of Messianic prophecies about the First Coming, and that every one of them meant what they said. It suddenly dawned on me that if the First Coming prophecies in this "apocalyptic” book meant what they said, then the Second Coming prophecies must mean what they say.

My study of Bible prophecy since that time has convinced me that the twisting of scriptures through spiritualization is a terrible abuse of God’s Word. It has led Christians to reject the Genesis account of creation as well as the promises of God for the future.

From the beginning to the end of the Bible we need to interpret God’s Word for its plain sense meaning. The failure to do so will produce tragic doctrines like Replacement Theology.

II. The Root of the Problem

I’d like to get into the topic of Replacement Theology by going to the root of it. And that is Satan’s hatred of the Jewish people. Satan hates the Jews with a passion for several reasons:
1.God chose them to be His witness to the world.
2.Through them God gave the world the Bible.
3.Through them God gave the world the Messiah.
4.God has promised that He will save a great remnant of them.
5.God has promised that through that remnant He will bless all the nations of the world during the Millennial reign of Jesus.

Satan is determined to destroy every Jew on planet earth so that God cannot keep His promises to them.

III. Supersessionism

Part of Satan’s strategy has been to infect the Church with what was historically called Supersessionism. This is the idea that God has replaced the Jews with the Church. It’s only in the 20th Century that this concept came to be known as Replacement Theology.

There are two basic kinds of Supersessionism. The first type is called "Economic Supersessionism.” I prefer to call it "Historical Supersessionism.” This is the more moderate form of the theology. It argues that it was God’s plan from the beginning for Israel’s role as the people of God to expire with the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of the Church. Or, to put it another way, it was God’s plan for the people of God to morph from an ethnic group into a universal group.1

An example of this viewpoint among the early Church Fathers can be found in the writings of Melito of Sardis (died c. 180). He wrote:2


The people [Israel] was precious before the church arose, and the law was marvelous before the gospel was elucidated. But when the church arose and the gospel took precedence, the model was made void, conceding its power to the reality…The people [Israel] was made void when the church arose.

A modern representative of this school of thought is Karl Barth (1886-1968). He stated:3


The first Israel, constituted on the basis of physical descent from Abraham, has fulfilled its mission now that the Savior of the world has sprung from it and its Messiah has appeared. Its members can only accept this fact with gratitude, and in confirmation of their own deepest election and calling, attach themselves to the people of this Savior, their own King, whose members the Gentiles are now called to be as well. Its [Israel’s] mission as a natural community has now run its course and cannot be continued or repeated.

The far more common type of Supersessionism, and the type that has characterized the Church almost from its beginning, is called Punitive Supersessionism. It emphasizes Israel’s disobedience to God and their subsequent justifiable punishment by God and their displacement as the people of God.

To put it another way, "The Chosen People of Israel have been replaced by the Church because the Jewish nation acted wickedly and has forfeited the right to be the people of God.”4

Anti-Semitism

It is this viewpoint that early on caused the Church to be infected with a virulent form of anti-Semitism. You see, for almost 2,000 years the Church at large, both Catholic and Protestant, has maintained that due to the fact that the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God poured out His wrath on them in 70 AD, destroying their nation and their Temple, and in the process, He washed His hands of them, leaving them with no purpose whatsoever as a nation.

In short, because of their continuing disobedience and their rejection of Jesus, God has replaced Israel with the Church, transferring the blessings promised to Israel to the Church.

Today this is called Replacement Theology, and those who still believe in it ”” the majority of professing Christians ”” consider modern day Israel to be an accident of history, with no spiritual significance whatsoever. Accordingly, they would deny that God has any special plans for the Jewish people in the end times. Again, to them, the regathering of the Jews and the re-establishment of Israel are simply accidents of history, with no spiritual significance.

Let me give you a graphic example of what I am talking about. Consider the following statement that was made by one of Christendom’s best known spokesmen:5


I think it is problematic to relate prophecy to current events unfolding in the nation-state of Israel. There may be some relationship, of course. Only God knows. But the secular state of Israel created in 1948 is not, in my understanding, identical with the Jewish people as God’s chosen and called-out covenant people.


I strongly support Israel because it is a haven for persecuted Jews ”” not because I think it fulfills biblical prophecy. I also support a Palestinian state both from historical and prudential considerations. Given the state of affairs in the Middle East, a Palestinian state is the only practicable solution for peace.

And who wrote these words? Chuck Colson!

IV. The Roots of Replacement Theology

As I said before, the roots of Replacement Theology and its fruit of Anti-Semitism go back to the very beginning of Christianity.

As I’m sure all of you are well aware, the Church began as a Jewish institution. It was founded in Judea by Jews who were followers of a Jewish Messiah, and all its founding documents were written by Jews.

A Jewish-Christian Symbol

The Jewish nature of the early church is attested to by this symbol. It is the oldest Christian symbol that has ever been found. It is carved into artifacts found in Jerusalem that date back to the First Century.

Early Christian Symbol
-

As you can see, it shows the fish, the symbol of the Church, emerging from Jewish roots, represented by the Menorah and the Star of David. The fish became a symbol for Christians because the word for fish in Greek is ICTHUS ”” an acronym for Jesus Christ, God’s Son and Savior. The Gentilization of the Church Now, as the Church began to spread beyond its Judean origin, and as it embraced more and more Gentiles, it quickly lost touch with its Jewish roots. This process was accelerated by the destruction of the mother church in Jerusalem during the Second Jewish Revolt against the Romans that ended in 136 AD. Another key to the Gentilizing of the Church was the development of an allegorical hermeneutical approach to the Scriptures that enabled the Church to appropriate Israel’s promises for itself.


Thus Tertullian, writing in the 3rd Century, was able to argue that the promise of Genesis 25:21-25 that "the older will serve the younger” (speaking, of course of Esau and Jacob), was really a prophecy that Israel would become subservient to the Church!6


V. The Evolution of Replacement Theology and Anti-Semitism


As a result of these historical developments, Christian apologists, starting as early as the Second Century, began to turn against the Jews, characterizing them as "Christ Killers.”

Consider the following examples: The Epistle of Barnabas (100 AD) ”” This writing was a contender for inclusion in the Bible. It is a good demonstration of how profoundly Greek methods of interpretation had already impacted Christians. The writer insisted that the Old Testament was never meant to be read literally, but was to be interpreted allegorically. The writer argued that "only the Christian could make sense of the Bible.” The "carnal Jews,” with their "earthly mind-set,” had failed to recognize the hidden message of their own Scriptures, and as a result, had eternally forfeited their entitlement to the covenant promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


7 Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50-117) ”” He said that "those who partake of the Passover are partakers with those who killed Jesus.”

8 Justin Martyr (100-165) ”” He claimed God’s covenant with Israel was no longer valid and that the Gentiles had replaced the Jews.

9 Additionally, he was the first to identify the Church as "the true spiritual Israel.”

10 And he declared that the plight of the Jews ”” their exile and persecution ”” had happened "in fairness and justice” because they had "slain the Just One.”

11 Melito of Sardis (died c. 180) ”” Also focused on deicide when he proclaimed, "The King of Israel slain with Israel’s right hand! Alas for the new wickedness of the new murder.”

12 Irenaeus (130-202) ”” He was a student of Polycarp who, in turn, was a disciple of the Apostle John. He declared that "the house of Jacob and the people of Israel are disinherited from the grace of God.” And he argued this because they "have rejected the Son of God ” and "they slew Him.”

13 Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 ”“ c. 215) ”” Claimed that Israel "denied the Lord” and thus "forfeited the place of the true Israel.”

14 Hippolytus of Rome (170-235) ”” He is considered by many to be the most important theologian of the 3rd Century. He was a student of Irenaeus. He declared that the Jews had been darkened in the eyes of their souls "with a darkness utter and everlasting.” He further stated that they were destined to be "slaves to the nations, not for four hundred years as in Egypt, nor seventy as in Babylon, but… always.”


15 Tertullian of Carthage (155-230) ”” He blamed the Jews for the death of Jesus and argued they had been rejected by God.

16 Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200-258) ”” He was a student of Tertullian. He wrote:

17 I have endeavored to show that the Jews…departed from God and lost God’s favor… while the Christians succeeded to their place, deserving well of the Lord by faith, and coming out of all nations and from the whole world. He added:

18 We Christians when we pray, say "Our Father” because He has begun to be ours, and has ceased to be the Father of the Jews, who have forsaken Him.

Origen of Alexandria (185-254) ”” He was responsible for much Anti-Semitism, all of which was based on his assertion that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus. In one of his treatises he wrote:

19 We say with confidence that they [the Jews] will never be restored to their former condition. For they committed a crime of the most unhallowed kind, in conspiring against the Savior of the human race… It accordingly behoved that city where Jesus underwent these sufferings to perish utterly, and the Jewish nation to be overthrown, and the invitation of happiness offered them by God to pass to others ”” the Christians…

The Council of Elvira (305) ”” This was an ecclesiastical synod of Spanish clerics that was held in what is now known as the city of Granada, located in southern Spain. The council voted to prohibit Christians from sharing a meal with a Jew, marrying a Jew, blessing a Jew or observing the Sabbath.20

VI. The Turning Point for Christianity We come now to a great turning point in the history of Christianity ”” namely, Constantine’s conversion to Christianity in 306 AD and his ultimate adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire in 321 AD. As we have seen, by the beginning of the 4th Century, Replacement Theology and its virulent anti-Semitism had become entrenched in Christian thought. And when Christianity was given the approval of the Empire overnight, the emperors began to enact into law the concepts and claims of the Christian theologians against the Jews and Judaism.

21 In the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, favor was granted to Christianity while synagogues were outlawed. Another edict, issued in 315 AD, authorized the burning of Jews if they were convicted of breaking the laws.

22 As the Church became increasingly dominant, further laws were passed that severely curtailed rabbinical jurisdiction, prohibited conversion to Judaism, and excluded Jews from holding high office or serving in the military.

23 As Clarence Wagner has summed it up, "Instead of the Church taking this opportunity to spread its Gospel message in love, it truly became the Church Triumphant, ready to vanquish its foes.”

24 The Council of Nicea (325 AD) ”” The first ecumenical council of the Church. It was held in what is modern day Turkey, and it was convened and presided over by Emperor Constantine. This is the historic Council that settled the Christological issue of the nature of the Son of God and his relationship to God the Father. Regarding the Jews, the Council changed the celebration of the Resurrection from the Jewish Feast of First Fruits to Easter in an attempt to disassociate it from Jewish feasts.

The Council stated:25 For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people… In addition to calling them "odious people,” the Council also referred to the Jews as "polluted wretches,” "a most hostile rabble,” and "parricides.”

26 Eusebuis of Caesarea (c. 265-339) ”” He taught that the promises of Scripture were meant for the Gentiles and the curses were for the Jews. He asserted that the Church was the "true Israel.”

27 Hilary of Poitiers (c. 300-c. 368) ”” This French bishop was granted sainthood by the Church. He wrote, "Jews are a perverse people accursed by God forever.”

28 John Chrysostom (349-407) ”” He was the Archbishop of Constantinople. He was nicknamed "The Golden Tongue” for his powerful preaching. He presented eight sermons against the Jews.

Here is some of what he had to say:29 The synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater, it is also a den of robbers and a lodging place for wild beasts…Jews are inveterate murderers possessed by the Devil. Their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manners of a pig… This is why I hate the Jews. He proceeded to deny that Jews could ever receive forgiveness.

He claimed it was a Christian duty to hate Jews.

And he claimed that Jews worshiped Satan. And this man was canonized as a Saint!

Saint Jerome (347-420) ”” The renowned translator of the Bible into Latin. He described the Jews as "…serpents, wearing the image of Judas. Their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys…They are incapable of understanding Scripture.”

30 Saint Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (c. 340-397) ”” He is the one who converted Saint Augustine. Regarding the Jews, he wrote:

31 The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ, and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them.

Saint Augustine (354-430) ”” He is considered the greatest of all the Church Fathers in terms of the overall impact of his theology on the Church. With regard to the Jews, he simply endorsed what had been written before him. His only new contribution was his answer to a the frequently asked question, "Why has God allowed the Jews to continue to exist?” His answer was that although the Jews deserve death, they are destined to wander the earth to witness the victory of the Church over the Synagogue.32 But in terms of Replacement Theology, he provided another cornerstone with his development of Amillennialism and his contention that the millennial kingdom had begun with the coming of Jesus and that the Roman Church was the fulfillment of the kingdom promises that were made to Israel.

VII. The Middle Ages (5th to 15th Centuries)

So, by the mid-5th Century, Replacement theology and Amillennialism had become entrenched as doctrines of the Church, and the Jews had been demonized, condemned, and ostracized to the point that the Church had become a Gentile organization that was off-limits to the very people who founded it!

These views were reinforced by Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) who was the most important medieval Catholic theologian. He argued that because of their sin of deicide, the Jews were destined to "perpetual slavery.”

33 He further argued that: Jews should be compelled to work rather than live in idleness and grow rich by usury. Jews should be forced to wear a distinctive badge in order to distinguish them from Christians. Jews and heretics could be legitimately killed after a second warning. To illustrate how severe the rejection of Jews had become by the Middle Ages, consider the oath that the Church in Constantinople required a Jew to take in order to become a Christian:

34 I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifice of lambs of the Hebrews, and all other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications, and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; In one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom…And if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews . . then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me…and may I be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils. A similar Visigoth oath from the 7th century required a Jewish covert to "renounce every rite and observance of the Jewish religion” and contained a promise that the person would "never return to the vomit of Jewish superstition.”


35 Even the so-called "friends of the Jews” held them in low esteem. Consider, for example, Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), Peter the Venerable (c.1092-1156), and Pope Innocent III (c.1160-1216). All three spoke out against murderous attacks on the Jewish people. Yet, Bernard of Clairvaux characterized the Jews in his writings as "more than bestial,” "an evil seed,” and "a race who have not God for their father, but are of the devil…”36 Peter the Venerable, a contemporary of Bernard, was known as the meekest of men and a model of Christian charity. Yet, he said of the Jews: "I doubt whether a Jew can be really human.” He further referred to them as "monstrous animals” and "brute beasts.”

37 And Pope Innocent III argued that the Jews should not be killed because they should be left to wander the earth "until their countenance be filled with shame.”38 Again, by the beginning of the Middle Ages in the 5th Century, two erroneous concepts about the Jews had become firmly established in Church doctrine:


The Jews should be considered "Christ Killers” and should be mistreated accordingly.


The Church has replaced Israel, and God has no future purpose for the Jews.


These concepts were reinforced throughout the Middle Ages by: The Crusades Artistic Expressions Blood libels Black Plague myths Distinguishing marks Relegation to ghettos Pogroms The Inquisition Let me comment briefly on each of these.


Crusades ”” Regarding the Crusades (11th ”“ 13th Centuries), although their major purpose was to free the Holy Land of its Muslim rulers, the hatred of the Jews that had been instilled in the people of Europe by the Church encouraged the Crusaders to slaughter Jews along the way. Further, Pope Urban had given the Crusaders a guarantee of absolution for crimes committed in the Crusader cause. The Crusader shout, "God wills it!” soon became transmuted into "Kill a Jew and save your soul!

”39 The atrocities committed in the name of Jesus were beyond imagination. For example, after the Crusaders captured Jerusalem on July 15, 1099, Jews were herded into their synagogues, exits were blocked, and the synagogues were surrounded by soldiers who sang "Fairest Lord Jesus” while they burned the buildings to the ground.

40 Artistic Expressions ”” Since the literacy rate in the Middle Ages was probably only around 25%, the most important mode of communication to the common people was through various forms of art. These took the form of dehumanized portrayals of Jews in paintings, picture books, picture Bibles, sculptures, and dramas.


41 One of the most vivid, abominable and obscene pictures was one called "The Jewish Sow.” It appeared throughout Europe in the Middle Ages in many different forms. It depicted Jews nursing on pigs and eating their excrement. This horrid scene was painted on church walls, featured in stained glass windows and portrayed in statuary.

42 A more sophisticated portrayal of Replacement Theology was to be found in a very popular image called "Ecclesia versus Synagoga,” or the Church versus the Synagogue.

43 It personified the Church and the Synagogue as rival queens. The Jewish queen was shown blindfolded, bareheaded and downcast. In one hand she holds a broken staff. In the other she clutches the tablets of the law which are about to slip from her hand. The Church queen is depicted as triumphant, wearing a crown, with a cross in one hand and a chalice in the other. These statues were often found at the portals of cathedrals. They clearly communicated the idea that the Jews had been cast aside to make way for a new people of God. Another type of artistic expression that was very popular was the drama. Miracle plays and passion plays abounded during the Middle Ages, and they were used to cultivate hatred toward the Jewish people. Jews were depicted as demons who knew full well that Christ was the Son of God. In each play, as Christ carried the cross, he was tortured by bloodthirsty, cursing devils with hooked noses, horns and tails. The Jews were made to seem as evil as Christ was divine.

44 Bible story books and picture Bibles, like the Holkham Bible produced in London in the 14th Century always portrayed the Jews as evil agents of the Devil.45 Blood Libels ”” Throughout the Middle Ages, professing Christians spread myths which helped to heighten popular hatred and fear of the Jewish people. As a result, it became commonplace among Christian groups to think of Jews as agents of Satan. One of the most popular anti- Jewish myths that gained widespread acceptance was the notion that Jews murdered Christians each year around the time of Passover in order to get blood needed to perform satanic rites. This became known as the charge of ritual murder or "blood libel.”


Another common myth that circulated during these years was that Jews would steal the wafers used in communion and stab them with knives, thus killing Christ once again!

46 The most notorious blood libel of the Middle Ages occurred in 1493 when a two year old boy named Simon disappeared in Trento, Italy. His father blamed the Jewish community and 15 Jews were charged with ritual murder and burned at the stake.

47 This emotional story spread quickly throughout Europe and inspired many charges of ritual murder against Jews. Black Plague Myths ”” The Black Plague in the middle of the fourteenth century killed approximately one-third of the population of Europe. At the time, it was not known how the illness spread, but stories and rumors circulated that Jews had poisoned the wells. Although the accusation was totally unfounded, many Christians believed the myth. One reason it was easy to believe is because the Jews were not impacted by the plague as much as were the Gentiles. But this was due to the sanitary laws of the Bible which the Jews carefully followed. This accusation led to severe consequences for Jews. More than sixty Jewish communities were burned to the ground with all their occupants killed, and in some places, Jews were tortured and burned to death in bonfires.


48 Distinguishing Marks ”” The Fourth Lateran Council headed by Pope Innocent III ruled in 1215 that Jews must wear distinguishable dress and a colored badge of identification.49 This became common practice throughout Europe.


Relegation to Ghettos ”” In the 11th Century large cities throughout Europe began to herd Jews into designated areas within the cities called ghettos. This action was motivated, of course, by hatred of the Jews. Considering them to be "vermin,” it was decided that they should be cut off from the rest of the population.50 Pogroms ”” Massive violent attacks against Jewish communities broke out in the 11th and 12th Centuries in France, Germany and England. The Black Plague in the 14th Century provoked additional pogroms throughout Europe. During these pogroms, Jews were murdered, synagogues were destroyed and Torah scrolls were burned.51 The Inquisition ”” It started in 12th Century France and persisted into the 14th Century. It was originally launched to counter heresy within the Catholic Church, but in 1242 it veered off course by condemning the Talmud, resulting in the burning of thousands of Jewish books. In 1288, the Inquisition produced the first mass burning of Jews at the stake in France.52 VIII. The Impact of the Reformation Unfortunately, the Reformation produced no changes in attitudes toward the Jews. Replacement Theology is contained throughout the reference notes of the Geneva Bible, published in 1557, and it is reflected in the chapter headings of the King James Bible, published in 1611.53 For example, in Isaiah 43 God addresses His promises to "O Jacob” and "O Israel,” but the King James chapter heading reads: "God comforteth the Church with His promises.” Actually, the Reformation seemed to get off to a good start regarding attitudes toward the Jews. That’s because Martin Luther interjected a breath of fresh air when he took a firm stand against the Church’s mistreatment of the Jewish people. In an essay he wrote in 1523 entitled, "That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew,” he surveyed medieval anti-Semitism and proclaimed: "If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian.” He sincerely believed that the Jewish people would convert en masse to Christianity once they were presented with a Gospel that was free of "papal paganism.”54 He concluded his treatise with these words:55 Therefore, I would request and advise that one deal gently with them and instruct them from Scripture; then some of them may come along. Instead of this we are trying only to drive them by force, slandering them…So long as we thus treat them like dogs, how can we expect to work any good among them? Again, when we forbid them to labor and do business and have any human fellowship with us, thereby forcing them into usury, how is that supposed to do them any good? If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love…If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either. Unfortunately this biblical attitude did not last long. Luther became disillusioned and irritated with the Jews when they continued to resist his reformed Gospel. In 1526 he complained of the Jews’ stubbornness, and by the 1530s he was endorsing the common medieval stereotypes of the Jews, referring to them as "iron-hearted” and "stubborn as the Devil.”56 By the end of his life, Luther had turned against the Jews with a vengeance. In 1543 he wrote a pamphlet entitled "Concerning the Jews and Their Lies.”57 The document was an anti-Semitic diatribe that served to summarize the Jewish hatred that had been accumulating for the past thousand years. In it, he referred to the Jews as: "A miserable and accursed people” "Stupid fools” "Miserable, blind and senseless” "Thieves and robbers” "The great vermin of humanity” "Lazy rogues” "Blind and venomous” Having dehumanized and demonized them, Luther then proceeded to make some startling proposals for dealing with them: Their synagogues and schools be burned. Their houses should be destroyed. Their Talmudic writings should be confiscated. Their Rabbis should be forbidden to teach. Their money should be taken from them. They should be compelled into forced labor. IX. The Impact on Nazism Needless to say, the Nazis gleefully quoted Luther as they rose to power and launched the Holocaust. In fact, Hitler referred to Luther in his book, Mein Kampf, as a "great warrior, a true statesman, and a great reformer.”58 In 1924 at a Christian gathering in Berlin, Hitler spoke to thousands and received a standing ovation when he made the following proclamation: "I believe that today I am acting in accordance with the will of Almighty God as I announce the most important work that Christians could undertake ”” and that is to be against the Jews and get rid of them once and for all.”59 Hitler then proceeded to talk about the influence of Luther on his life:60 Martin Luther has been the greatest encouragement of my life. Luther was a great man. He was a giant. With one blow he heralded the coming of the new dawn and the new age. He saw clearly that the Jews need to be destroyed, and we’re only beginning to see that we need to carry this work on. At the Nuremberg trials after World War II, the Nazi leader, Julius Streicher, defended himself by saying, "I have never said anything that Martin Luther did not say.”61 The terrible truth that Christians do not like to face, and which many are unaware of, is that the Holocaust was the product of 1,900 years of virulent Christian anti- Semitism. And the Jews are fully aware of this fact.

Thus, Eliezer Berkovits, a renowned Orthodox rabbi wrote in 1984 that the Holocaust was due to the "moral bankruptcy of Christian civilization and the spiritual bankruptcy of the Christian religion.”

62 He further observed that "a straight line leads from the first act of oppression against the Jews and Judaism in the Fourth Century to the Holocaust in the 20th.” X. The New Anti-Semitism Speaking of the Holocaust, the horror of it tended to mute virulent anti-Semitism among Christian leaders after World War II. But in reality, it continues in a new form called "Anti-Zionism.” Anti-Zionism is just anti-Semitism in new, sophisticated clothes. Whereas anti-Semitism sought to drive out the Jews from the lands where they lived, anti-Zionism refuses to accept their right to live in their own land. Knox Seminary Document

A good example of the new form of anti-Semitism can be found in a document issued by James Kennedy’s Knox Theological Seminary in 2002. It was entitled, "An Open Letter to Evangelicals Concerning Israel.

”63 It has since been endorsed by hundreds of theologians and pastors, including such luminaries a R. C. Sproul. The document begins by denouncing those who teach that the Bible’s promises concerning the land of Israel are being fulfilled today "in a special region or ‘Holy Land,’ perpetually set apart by God for one ethnic group alone.”

64 It then proceeds to proclaim that the promises made to Abraham "do not apply to any particular ethnic group, but to the Church of Jesus Christ, the true Israel” (emphasis added).65 The document then specifically denies the Jew’s claim on any land in the Middle East by asserting: "The entitlement of any one ethnic or religious group to territory in the Middle East called the ‘Holy Land’ cannot be supported by Scripture.” Then, incredibly, the document asserts that "In fact, the land promises specific to Israel in the Old Testament were fulfilled under Joshua.”66 Adding salt to the wounds, the document concludes with the following observation:67 The present secular state of Israel…is not an authentic or prophetic realization of the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, a day should not be anticipated in which Christ’s kingdom will manifest Jewish distinctives, whether by its location in ‘the land,’ by its constituency, or by its ceremonial institutions and practices.

Despite these statements, when the anti-Zionists are accused of being anti-Semitic, they deny the accusation vehemently. Here’s how Dennis Prager, radio host and political commentator, has replied to their denials in his book, Why the Jews?:68 The contention that anti-Zionists are not enemies of Jews, despite the advocacy of policies that would lead to the mass murder of Jews, is, to put it as generously as possible, disingenuous. If anti-Zionism realized its goal, another Jewish holocaust would take place…Therefore attempts to draw distinctions between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are simply meant to fool the naive. Christian Palestinianism In recent years a new form of this anti-Zionism has raised its ugly head in the form of the Christian Palestinian Movement that Dr. Paul Wilkinson has spoken about several times. James Showers, Director of The Friends of Israel, has defined the movement in the following words:


69 Christian Palestinianism claims modern Israel has no biblical connection with or justification for owning the Promised Land; therefore, it concludes, Israel has become an apartheid state, occupying territory belonging to the Palestinian Arabs. The Movement’s most prominent leaders over the past few years are the following:

Stephen Sizer ”” Anglican vicar of Christ Church in Surrey, England.

Gary Burge ”” Ordained Presbyterian minister and professor of New Testament at Wheaton College.

Donald E. Wagner ”” Ordained Presbyterian minister and director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at North Park University in Chicago, Illinois.

John Stott ”” The late theologian and rector emeritus of All Souls Church in London.

Hank Hanegraaff ”” President of the Christian Research Institute and host of the "Bible Answer Man” radio program.

Tony Campolo ”” Baptist minister, author, and professor emeritus of sociology at Eastern University in Pennsylvania.


Lynne Hybels ”” Wife of Willow Creek Church senior pastor and founder, Bill Hybels.

Naim Ateek ”” Founder of Sabeel, the Palestinian Ecumenical Liberation Theology center in Jerusalem.


Mitri Raheb ”” Pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem.

Stephen Sizer is the recognized champion of the Christian Palestinian Movement. He has denounced Israel as an "apartheid state” which he claims is guilty of ethnic cleansing, and he has demonized Christians who support Israel as "heretical Armageddonites” whose interpretation of the Bible "provides a theological endorsement for racial segregation, apartheid and war.”


70 One of the movement’s greatest propaganda tools is the Kairos Palestine Document adopted in 2009. It declares "that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is a sin against God and humanity…” And it further asserts "that any theology, seemingly based on the Bible or on faith or on history, that legitimizes the occupation, is far from Christian teachings, because it calls for violence and holy war in the name of God Almighty…”71 That’s a mouthful when you consider the fact that it is Muslims, not Christians, who are calling for Holy War in the name of God.

The proponents of the movement hold Christian Zionists in open contempt. John Stott denounced Christian Zionism as "biblically anathema to the Christian faith.”72 Hank Hanegraaff wrote, "Christian Zionist beliefs and behaviors are the antithesis of biblical Christianity.”


73 One British journalist, Alan Hart, who supports the Christian Palestinian Movement, went so far as to state on his website:74 It’s time to give Israel’s hardcore Zionists their real name. They are the New Nazis…If Europeans and Americans don’t stop the New Nazis, it’s likely their endgame will be the extermination of millions of Palestinians.


And so you have it ”” an overview of the sad and sordid history of Christian anti-Semitism rooted in Replacement Theology and continuing to this day under the guise of anti-Zionism.

XI. The Response of Scripture What does the Word of God have to say about all this? Anti-Semitism ”” To begin with, it strongly repudiates anti-Semitism. Consider these words from Psalm 129: 5) May all who hate Zion be put to shame and turned backward. 6) Let them be like grass upon the housetops which withers before it grows up, 7) with which the reaper does not fill his hand… 8) Nor do those who pass by say, "The blessing of the Lord be upon you…”


Deicide ”” With regard to the allegation that the Jews are "Christ killers,” the Word clearly identifies who murdered Jesus and makes it plain that the Jews were not exclusively responsible. You will find the identity of those responsible in Acts 4:27: For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant, Jesus, whom You did anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel. Notice who is listed here as those responsible for the death of Jesus: Romans, Jews and Gentiles. And someone else not named ”” You and Me! Yes, all of us are responsible for the death of Jesus, for all of us are sinners (Romans 3:23), and Jesus died for all sinners (1 Corinthians 15:3). Land Promise ”” Regarding the idea that God has already fulfilled the land promises to the Jews during the time of Joshua, it is interesting to note that long after Joshua, King David wrote in Psalm 105 that the land promise is everlasting in nature and is yet to be fulfilled. The fact of the matter is that the Jews have never occupied all the land that was promised to them in the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 15:18-21). Under Joshua, they were given only the land that was promised to Moses. Rejection ”” Concerning the claim that the Jews have been rejected by God, there are a couple of biblical principles that need to be kept in mind. First, the Bible affirms that the Jews were called as God’s Chosen People to be witnesses of what it means to have a relationship with Him (Isaiah 43:10-12). And the Bible makes it clear that this calling is "irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). You can find the calling in Isaiah 43, beginning with verse 10: 10) "You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, "and My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11) "I, even I, am the Lord, And there is no savior besides Me. 12) "…So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord… The everlasting nature of this call is emphasized in Romans 11 beginning with verse 28: 28) From the standpoint of the gospel they [the Jews] are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29) for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Replacement ”” In direct contradiction of Replacement Theology, the Bible teaches that the Jews have never been replaced with the Church by God because of their unbelief. In Romans 3 Paul asserts point blank that their rejection of Jesus has not nullified God’s faithfulness to the promises He has made to them: 1) What advantage has the Jew? [The Church: "None!”] 2) Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3) What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? [The Church: "Yes!”] 4) May it never be! Rather, let God be found true though every man be found a liar… Paul makes the same point again in Romans 11:1 where he asks: "God has not rejected His people, has He?” The Church’s response for 2,000 years has been "Yes!” But Paul’s response is exactly the opposite: "May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew…” Discipline ”” It is true that the Jewish people are currently under discipline because of their rejection of their Messiah. Over and over in their Scriptures the prophets said they would be disciplined if they were unfaithful, but always the promise was made that they would be preserved. An example of this type of prophetic statement can be found in Jeremiah 30:11 ”” "For I am with you,” declares the Lord, "to save you; for I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you, only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly, and will by no means leave you unpunished.” Preservation ”” God has preserved them in His grace because He loves them. In Zechariah 2:8 God proclaims that the Jewish people are "the apple of His eye,” and He warns against anyone trying to harm them. Salvation ”” Another reason they have been preserved is because God is determined to bring a great remnant to salvation (Isaiah 10:20-22). This promise is made repeatedly throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and is confirmed by Paul in the New Testament in Romans 9-11. The salvation of this remnant is described in detail in Zechariah 12:10 where it says that at the end of the Tribulation the remaining Jews will come to the end of themselves and will turn their hearts to God in repentance and accept Yeshua as their Messiah. Primacy ”” That believing remnant will go into the Millennium in the flesh and will comprise the nation of Israel to whom God will fulfill all the promises He has made to the Jews (Isaiah 60-62). During the Millennium the nation of Israel will be the prime nation in the world through whom God will bless all the other nations (Zechariah 8:22-23). In summary, the Word of God makes it clear that Israel definitely has a role and a future in the end times.


XII. The Perseverance of Anti-Semitism


There can be no doubt that a perversion of Christianity called Replacement Theology has been the source of most anti- Semitism in the Western world.


Throughout northern Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia, anti-Semitism has been promoted by Islam.

The Qu’ran calls Jews "the children of monkeys and pigs.”75 But there are anti-Semites in this world who are neither Christian or Muslim and who have never even met a Jew. For example, a few years ago several of the top ten best selling books in Japan were virulently anti-Semitic, blaming all the problems of Japan on an "international Jewish conspiracy.”


76 Why is anti-Semitism so widespread, so persistent, so virulent, and so irrational? It’s because, as I asserted at the beginning, it is fundamentally a supernatural phenomenon. I want to end as I began, emphasizing that Satan hates the Jews with a passion. He hates them because God provided both the Bible and the Messiah through them. He hates them because God called them to be His Chosen People. He hates them because God has promised to save a great remnant of them. He hates them because God loves them. The result is that he works overtime to plant seeds of hatred in people’s hearts toward the Jews. He is determined to destroy every Jew on planet earth so that God cannot keep His promise to save a great remnant. He tried to annihilate them in the Holocaust. He failed. He will try to destroy them once again during the last half of the Tribulation. He will fail again.


XIII. Conclusion In conclusion, Replacement Theology is an abomination.

It is unbiblical, and it has resulted in virulent anti-Semitism that has in turn resulted in the deaths of millions of Jews. There is no reason for the Church to be covetous of the promises that God has made to the Jewish people. He has also made some glorious promises to the Church, one of which is the Rapture. Additionally we have been promised that we will reign with him over all the nations of the world during his Millennial kingdom. And we have been promised that we will live with Him eternally on a New Earth in a New Jerusalem in new, Glorified Bodies. It is no wonder that Paul wrote: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, nor has the mind of man conceived what God has prepared for those who love Him” (1 Corinthians 2:9). God’s Sovereignty One of the fundamental underlying messages of this presentation is that God is in control. He is on His throne. He is sovereign. And He has the wisdom and the power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son in history. God has already proved this point with His response to the Cross. He took the most dastardly act in the history of Mankind and transformed it into the most glorious through the resurrection of His Son. Satan’s Frustration Satan has got to be the most frustrated character in all the universe. And just as he was frustrated in murdering God’s Son, He will be frustrated in murdering God’s Chosen People. For a great remnant of the Jewish people is going to live to the end of the Tribulation. They will be brought to the end of themselves. Israel’s Salvation And when Jesus appears in His Second Coming, "…they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn” (Zechariah 12:10) They will receive Yeshua as their Messiah, and they will cry out "Baruch Haba B’Shem Adonai.” (Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!) What a glorious day that will be. What glory it will bring to the name of God. Meanwhile, as we await that day, let us meet each new day with the cry of "Maranatha! Maranatha! Come quickly Lord Jesus!”

T
TMK

The last several lines of that discourse seem to indicate that Jews do not need faith. When they see Jesus descending in power at the 2nd coming, when they have no choice, THEN they will believe. It has always been my understanding that at the 2nd Coming it's too late to start believing. He is coming in judgment.

S
sermonindex

where does it say that?

S
sermonindex

Todd

These Jews will see him and believe on him. This is the essential part.
They will see and understand and repent and believe.
Many people have seen him and will see him in the future and still will not believe on him. Just seeing Jesus does not alway lead to saving faith

However the house of Israel will see and believe and be saved as the scripture clearly says in the later days. This is God's doing,

Zec 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

P
proudpapa

As Neil alluded to, There is nothing found in the first 1,000 years of church history that agrees with the modern view concerning Israel in prophecey.


The Epistle of Barnabas (100 AD)
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50-117)
Justin Martyr (100-165)
Melito of Sardis (died c. 180)
Irenaeus (130-202)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 ”“ c. 215)
Hippolytus of Rome (170-235)
Tertullian of Carthage (155-230)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254)
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200-258)

add: If there is anything recorded from the first 1,000 years of church history that agrees with the modern view concerning Israel in prophecey, I personaly would be interested in reading it.


edit: I changed the wording from "pointed out" to "alluded to"

T
TMK

Rev wrote:

"These Jews will see him and believe on him. This is the essential part.
They will see and understand and repent and believe.
Many people have seen him and will see him in the future and still will not believe on him. Just seeing Jesus does not alway lead to saving faith"

I understand that perspective. I think perhaps my difficulty is simply because of my belief that Jesus' second coming coincides with the creation of the new heavens and new earth. Accordingly, the time of the second coming is a time of immediate judgment- i.e. it is too late to see and believe(2 Thess 1:6-10). However, I am not so dogmatic as to say that I might not be right about that.

http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_gregg/text/eschatology.pdf

S
sermonindex

by TMK on 2016/3/28 19:50:49

The last several lines of that discourse seem to indicate that Jews do not need faith. When they see Jesus descending in power at the 2nd coming, when they have no choice, THEN they will believe. It has always been my understanding that at the 2nd Coming it's too late to start believing. He is coming in judgment.

TMK,

You are right, there are no second and third chances. The Church is not just a parentheses, until the next coming of Christ. The Church is His Church and is His ultimate intention. This is it, now is the time of salvation. The Church is the manifold wisdom of God. It is HIS BODY.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Let's see Zech 12:10, again.

Zech 12:10
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

This was fulfilled in the book of Acts, as Jews from all over the world were PRICKED in their hearts as God poured out His Holy Spirit, the spirit of grace and supplication.

Act 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were PRICKED in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The way that Zech 12:10 is used in our modern time would be a very, very big deal in the NT and to the Apostles. So big that much would have been written about it in the NT, but somehow they must have missed it because we do not see that doctrine in the NT, at all.

Zechariah says, "I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem", and that is exactly what happened in the book of Acts, chapter 2. It is undeniable. But, if modern theologians admitted this, they could not use that verse for what I call "after the Church age dispensation". There is no such thing. Peter says there is no "after the Church age dispensation". No "after the church age dispensation" is taught in the NT.

2Pe 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

If there is another age after the Church age and people get yet another chance at salvation (presumably only Jewish people) then why is Peter warning the "church age", folks? Could it be because there is not another dispensation after the Church Age? Think about what a very, very big deal that is and think about the fact that the Apostles never talked about that.



by proudpapa on 2016/3/28 21:41:48

As Neil alluded to, There is nothing found in the first 1,000 years of church history that agrees with the modern view concerning Israel in prophecey.


The Epistle of Barnabas (100 AD)
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50-117)
Justin Martyr (100-165)
Melito of Sardis (died c. 180)
Irenaeus (130-202)
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 ”“ c. 215)
Hippolytus of Rome (170-235)
Tertullian of Carthage (155-230)
Origen of Alexandria (185-254)
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200-258)


add: If there is anything recorded from the first 1,000 years of church history that agrees with the modern view concerning Israel in prophecey, I personaly would be interested in reading it.

edit: I changed the wording from "pointed out" to "alluded to"

PP, nothing exists, nothing will be found.

The fact remains that if Zech 12:10 was speaking of a national conversion of the Jews, there would be much teaching regarding this in the NT and as Proudpapa alluded, this is a recent teaching give or take a century or two.

Paul tells us who the "True Israel of God is". It is neither the circumcised nor the uncircumcised (Jew or Gentile according to the flesh).

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, BUT A NEW CREATURE.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD.

Paul obviously was troubled by people for taking this stance but what true Christian can argue with him?
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

New Creatures in Christ are the true Israel of God. This is what the Bible clearly tells us.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I'm sure the following verse did not make the apostle Paul popular, either.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What he is saying is that the unbelieving part of the nation is not the true "Israel". He goes on to say that "Israel" has not obtained what he seeks for, but the election (the believing part) "has obtained it" (Rom 11:7). In the same passage, Paul says that this "election" which is the remnant that has obtained the promises, includes believing Gentiles along with the believing Jews (Rom. 9:24-31; 10:19, 20; 11:11-27). And now we have the full truth of the "Israel of God". It includes both believing Jews and Gentiles as the Scriptures reveal.

The best thing to do is stick to the Scriptures.

D
docs

I don't know how you may take this and how you may react to it yet in spite of that I am your brother in the Lord and will remain so.

My point is that my original post had nothing to do with replacment theology and the controversy surrounding it nor had it anything to do with any personal animosity you may hold toward certain others on this forum. It was about differing views Jews have regarding the resurrection of Jesus. You commented on that and then unnecessarily and off topic brought the replacement controversy into the discussion and spoke of this ill willed gaggle who have latched onto the forums like a deer tick as they go about spewing their doctrine of demons. From my vantage point this is a classic example of what I meant by NASTINESS AT THE DROP OF A HAT. These barbed and personal accusations on Easter morning were off subject and unnecessary. Everyone knew who you were referring to. You wrote,

"or maybe they'll just leave your posting alone to recede into the forum."

Well bro, it's you who chose to not leave my posting alone. You took the chance to add nasty and personal insults about a subject unrelated to my original post. And this is part of what I tried to mention to you. Why is that those who hold to replacment theology have for the most part been more civil and respectful in their dialog than those they disagree with? I mentioned that such behavior has many times well meaning threads being ruined before they even get off the ground. The VERY FIRST reply I got to my post was from you and it basically doomed this thread from the start. How much were Jewish views of the resurrection of Jesus spoken about in this thread? It was the last thing on my mind for this thread to go the way it has and you began and instigated the mess. It's just as simple as that. The first reply you gave set the tone of the whole carnal diatribe. If just you could stand back and see the way this comes across. This type of behavior SIMPLY NEEDS TO STOP in my opinion. Once again the whole forum had to be exposed to this and I want to put in a word on their behalf. Stop doing this. Therefore as I said before I lobby strongly on behalf of a more Christian like level of self moderation and foresight of comments.

From my experience reserching repacement theology etc. I have come to the conclusion that those who espouse this view today are not necessarily Jew haters who totally agree with all of the bad things that have occured over history toward Jewish people. Many of them even grieve over this. I know there are those who mock and deride modern Israel and it's my opinion that as prophecy is worked out in the world they will begin to see the true meaning of many prophecies. I realize that may be just my opinion but I'm asking you as politely as I can to give this nastiness at the drop of a hat a rest. I can guarantee you it has been detrimental and works against you. I certainly remain your brother and I respect your empathy and bond with your kinsmen.

It's almost 4:00 AM in the morning so I hope I said everything in the right way but it's time a more respectful dialog is undertaken from everyone. If I could have said things differently then I apologize up front. My man and wife friend who I have been houise sitting for the past six weeks just returned from Israel a few hours ago so I am certainly not a enemy of Isarel or the Jewish people when I say a more respectful dialog is MANDATORY if a clear conscinece before God is to be maintained.

D
docs

You wrote,

Neil

You have your answer, satan does not sleep but God will continue to deal
with the deceitful workers that frequent (and I do mean frequent) this place. Cunning and crafty false professors of religion are not just in the catholic
system obviously.
Anyway can we please get back to bashing the money preachers for mutual edification? (END)

What did julius say in his reply to me that would cause you to jump in like this? Julius' first reply was on topic and spoke well of the thoughts in the original post which was about Jewish views of the resurrection of Jesus. How does one get from this positive response to assocation with Satan and deceitful workers who are cunning and crafty professors of religion. It seems you bear more than a tid bit of personal animosity toward certain others and this reply of yours is the same as many comments you have made that are needlessly caustic and even cruel and mean spirited. It does your view no good to engage in blanket type accusations such as these that are often laced with a great deal of over bearing polemic. I don't believe in replacement theology but nor do I believe in the tone and attitude in many of your posts and I wish to disassociate myself from them. Please think on these things and consider STOPPING.

S
sermonindex

You're words are well spoke, wise and received by me as such.

i'm awake as well,been since midnite, reading this very thread, and to YOU, I humbly apologize for "taking it off the tracks", that wasn't right.

what I write next, is neither "excuse" or "justification" for wronging YOU, which I am VERY contrite about. Saints that actually KNOW me, here at SI, will tell I speak from the heart, and what I write next is from the heart: when I was 7, and my beloved grandmother dropped me off at synagogue to learn both Hebrew and Torah, I was so thrilled, so happy, because God has always been so REAL to me, right to this very day, this second. They didn't have to force me there, God was THERE, all around me, and with me.

To speak in Hebrew was never "foreign" to me, a second language, it would just flow off my tongue, and in accent, no hint of an American accent, it was holy language to me. Even though all the other children, were also "American Jews", I felt different from them, my heart even then was canted towards Israel.

in the back of this beautiful synagogue, built entirely of travertine (the same stone as the Wall) there was a long display case filled with antiquities from ancient Israel, and I wound spend hours back there, gazing and pondering. y heroes were men like Joseph, King Hezekiah, and King David...and they did not seem to me to be far off historical figures, but very close, very real......men to be emulated, and it occurred to me that the same blood that flowed thru my veins , flowed through theirs, we were one......and then at age 9, I saw Renais;s 28 minute B/w holocaust film , "Night and Fog".....everything changed after that....and brother David, I have much more of my heart to reveal to you, but i'm weary and very disheartened , but I do grieve I caused you grief,,,,please know that....as to these others, I will deal with them. God love you

S
sermonindex

Brothers,

It is absolutely wrong to name-call, slander, and speak towards each other in the Lord this way. This must "STOP" an unsaved world is watching as well as believers. There are millions of doctrinal views on the internet posted everywhere, we will not condone a repeated posting of the same arguments.

Myself believe it was the Lord that gathered physical Israel in the current state and has an end times purpose for them. But I trust the Lord by the Holy Spirit will show other blood bought saints that through the reading of God's Word. I have no interest arguing or forcing all saints into this.

I have received repeated emails from concerned brothers who some of them do not participate on the forums but are sad to see these threads where arguments and slander are occurring. It is really a shame to the Lord's Name, this has to stop.

We must serve and love each other as brothers and allow at times the Lord to correct a wrong way of thinking or those spiritual "gently" teach. This is NOT happening in these threads and it is unprofitable for those reading them.

I read this passage from the letter to the Philippians this morning:

2 I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And[a] I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!

5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.


Do you notice that there were 2 sisters mentioned here, Euodia and Syntyche who were continually arguing and not unified in the Lord. This is the only time they are mentioned in the New Testament and it is for all saints to read through Church History as a "warning" against arguing and never coming to peace with others though disagreements occur.

New Living Translation
Now I appeal to Euodia and Syntyche. Please, because you belong to the Lord, settle your disagreement.

It brings shame to Christ's Name if this is the testimony coming from the Church to the world. We are asking brethren to pray and seek the Lord concerning this matter. We are not condoning these on-going behaviours on the forums on SermonIndex.

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