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Mortifying. Desires

B
brothagary

I was going over some writings of John of the cross ,I would like to get some feed back ,and weather you agree with this. It came from the the ascent of mtCarmel..................

5. For the mortifying and calming of the four natural passions, which are joy, hope, fear and grief, from the concord and pacification whereof come these and other blessings, the counsels here following are of the greatest help, and of great merit, and the source of great virtues.

6. Strive always to prefer, not that which is easiest, but that which is most difficult;

Not that which is most delectable, but that which is most unpleasing;

Not that which gives most pleasure, but rather that which gives least;

Not that which is restful, but that which is wearisome;

Not that which is consolation, but rather that which is disconsolateness;

Not that which is greatest, but that which is least;

Not that which is loftiest and most precious, but that which is lowest and most despised;

Not that which is197 a desire for anything, but that which is a desire for nothing;

Strive to go about seeking not the best of temporal things, but the worst.

Strive thus to desire to enter into complete detachment and emptiness and poverty, with respect to everything that is in the world, for Christ’s sake.

7. And it is meet that the soul embrace these acts with all its heart and strive to subdue its will thereto. For, if it perform them with its heart, it will very quickly come to find in them great delight and consolation, and to act with order and discretion.

S
sermonindex

Hi Gary,

Jesus makes it much simpler. He says, love Me with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and He gives us His Spirit (rather than detailed rules) to lead us and guide us as to how to love Him and walk with Him.

The thing about adopting men's rules is that it's like weight lifting, you are always looking in the mirror to see how YOU are developing and invariably you begin to look at others with the same critical eye, thinking they should be doing the same thing because it is making your outside man look good. If we walked in love with the Lord and towards others, then we don't even think about this stuff, we are too busy concentrating on Him.

Better to concentrate more on what is inside the cup than what the cup looks like. The substance is much better than the form.

T
TMK

I don't even know what those statements mean. It sounds like a miserable life to me.

Should I turn my garden with a hand trowel rather than a spade? It would definitely be more wearisome. Should I eat liver (yuck) rather than chicken because it will bring me less pleasure?

I don't see any indication in scripture that our lives are supposed to be miserable.

S
sermonindex

Double post.

Amen TMK,

Our life with God is about heart attitudes and Paul shows us the balance.

Philippians 4:11-14
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

S
savannah

For if we are to live, we must use the necessary supports of life; nor can we even shun those things which seem more subservient to delight than to necessity. We must therefore observe a mean, that we may use them with a pure conscience, whether for necessity or for pleasure. This the Lord prescribes by his word, when he tells us that to his people the present life is a kind of pilgrimage by which they hasten to the heavenly kingdom.

If we are only to pass through the earth, there can be no doubt that we are to use its blessings only in so far as they assist our progress, rather than retard it. Accordingly, Paul, not without cause, admonishes us to use this world without abusing it, and to buy possessions as if we were selling them, (1 Cor. 7:30, 31.) But as this is a slippery place, and there is great danger of falling on either side, let us fix our feet where we can stand safely.

There have been some good and holy men who, when they saw intemperance and luxury perpetually carried to excess, if not strictly curbed, and were desirous to correct so pernicious an evil, imagined that there was no other method than to allow man to use corporeal goods only in so far as they were necessaries: a counsel pious indeed, but unnecessarily austere; for it does the very dangerous thing of binding consciences in closer fetters than those in which they are bound by the word of God.

Moreover, necessity, according to them, was abstinence from every thing which could be wanted, so that they held it scarcely lawful to make any addition to bread and water. Others were still more austere, as is related of Cratetes the Theban, who threw his riches into the sea, because he thought, that unless he destroyed them they would destroy him.

Many also in the present day, while they seek a pretext for carnal intemperance in the use of external things, and at the same time would pave the way for licentiousness, assume for granted, what I by no means concede, that this liberty is not to be restrained by any modification, but that it is to be left to every man’s conscience to use them as far as he thinks lawful. I indeed confess that here consciences neither can nor ought to be bound by fixed and definite laws; but that Scripture having laid down general rules for the legitimate uses we should keep within the limits which they prescribe.

Let this be our principle, that we err not in the use of the gifts of Providence when we refer them to the end for which their author made and destined them, since he created them for our good, and not for our destruction. No man will keep the true path better than he who shall have this end carefully in view.

Now then, if we consider for what end he created food, we shall find that he consulted not only for our necessity, but also for our enjoyment and delight. Thus, in clothing, the end was, in addition to necessity, comeliness and honour; and in herbs, fruits, and trees, besides their various uses, gracefulness of appearance and sweetness of smell. Were it not so, the Prophet would not enumerate among the mercies of God "wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine,” (Ps. civ. 15.)

The Scriptures would not everywhere mention, in commendation of his benignity, that he had given such things to men. The natural qualities of things themselves demonstrate to what end, and how far, they may be lawfully enjoyed. Has the Lord adorned flowers with all the beauty which spontaneously presents itself to the eye, and the sweet odour which delights the sense of smell, and shall it be unlawful for us to enjoy that beauty and this odour? What? Has he not so distinguished colours as to make some more agreeable than others? Has he not given qualities to gold and silver, ivory and marble, thereby rendering them precious above other metals or stones? In short, has he not given many things a value without having any necessary use?

Have done, then, with that inhuman philosophy which, in allowing no use of the creatures but for necessity, not only maliciously deprives us of the lawful fruit of the divine beneficence, but cannot be realised without depriving man of all his senses, and reducing him to a block.

But, on the other hand, let us with no less care guard against the lusts of the flesh, which, if not kept in order, break through all bounds, and are, as I have said, advocated by those who, under pretence of liberty, allow themselves every sort of license. John C.

S
sermonindex

That's a great post, Savannah.

Your post shows that there are always two extremes of the spectrum, and yet, there is always a balance in the many aspects of the Christian life.

For spirit-filled men, still living in an earthly temple, it can be difficult at times to find the balance, but God is faithful and will lead us into all truth.

A man who knew the Lord quite well, wrote this:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

S
sermonindex

Thanks Gary. John never taught asceticism but he knew how easily we become apathetic and how useful it is to keep ourselves awake and centred on Christ alone waiting for Him to deliver us from the flesh so that we can walk as He walked.

Comfort is our enemy.

I believe that God gave things to use as a condolence to those who do not seek Him first. To the others the world means nothing.

S
sermonindex


There is much to learn from Saints who choose to suffer and take the way of the cross. Did not our Lord tell us that His disciples are those who take the cross.

Peter the apostle says that we must choose to suffer: Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. - 1 Peter 4:1-2

Paul shared with his co-worker timothy: share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, - 2 timothy 1:8

Moses followed this way of suffering: "choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin," Hebrews 11:25

We are to follow in this way of mortification BY THE SPIRIT:

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
- Colossians 3:5-9

E
elected

Mortification of selfishness, self-will, self-pleasure, self-confidence and of every deed of the flesh is something necessary in our spiritual growth in grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Paul said to crucify the flesh with its passions and desires, that's the only way to live in the Spirit and not in the flesh.


S
sermonindex

Yes, elected. Isn't it wonderful that as we sow to the Spirit, walking in love and keeping our eyes on Jesus that the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled? In effect, by walking after the spirit, we accomplish many other things. How wise is our God!!

The order is important.

Sow to the Spirit and you won't fulfill the desires of the flesh.

Not, "mortify the flesh and you will be walking after the spirit."Not usually true, because our emphasis in on ourselves and not the Lord.

T
TMK

Excellent point, J.

E
elected

Hi Julius,


Maybe we mean the same thing but use different terms. To be a disciple of Jesus we are called to deny ourselves and pick up our cross and follow the Lord. It means to crucify the old adamic self, so that not my old self but Christ will live in me. Our old man has already been crucified on the Cross with Jesus but from the experimential point of view we need to appropriate by faith that truth and put on Christ daily.

S
sermonindex

I am sure just like a gem with many facets, we are saying the same thing but showing different facets of the same gem. Salvation is certainly like a gem with many facets and it is always good to see the gem from many sides. Gives you a fuller, more balanced picture of the truth.

B
brothagary

To be fair Julius , we all have rules to follow is some thing we all do to inhance our walk with God ,,some people like wilkinson do not watch tv ,some people do not take a drop of alcohol and so on ,some people like washer do not go to the mall, some don't gamble at all ,,al these are rules like not eating fine foods and not take the easy comfortable way out ,,,and men would argue that it is because they love God they do these things ,and to be honest this may have nothing to do the outward amperence ,but striving for inner peace ,unless you've read what these men like John of the cross teach then your obviously misinterpreting their goal and reasons for doing what they do generally speaking ......

We all no about mortafing the flesh and its passions and desires ,,what they seem to teaching ,is an extreamly heigh level f mortification ,,,and if tozer is wright about these men being godly and correct ,then we are all wrong and falling far short of a deep and perfect union with God ,

I know when we fast and pray for certaint seasons ,we up the anti but it seems as if some of these saints press in so much harder ...

Now that's if there are speaking truth about acteacisim ,and if tozer is right about them ,,,,,,,


Or they are just deceived by the Devil ,, or we are for wanting to play church and talking about God all the time in stead ...

S
sermonindex

I would have to agree with the argument that asceticism is not the way. It's like suffering/persecution: we are not seek it out! But we are to "choose" it. In other words, we are not to run away from suffering, loss, persecution at the expense of the Gospel & carrying our cross. But we are also not to "seek it out" as some self-denying masochistic self-inflicted suffering either. This is the monk/monestary mentality of Ghandi, the Buddhist monks, the Amish, etc.

So one extreme is to refuse to embrace a cross of suffering the Lord has given us when faced with that choice for His Names sake. The other extreme is to go out & look for crosses to pick up & bear as burdens the Lord never even called/requires us to (asceticism). Both are unbalanced & unscriptural I believe.

Go out in joy & freedom (not to sin, but from sin) & be willing to take whatever cross the Lord calls us to bear for His sake. This is the balanced view of the New Testament in carrying the cross & being His disciple.

E
elected

John of the Cross is not teaching ascetism, he was a Carmelite monk who had a great love for God and men and he talks about this perfect love and how to reach perfect union with Jesus Christ. What he teaches is called mystic theology and the goal of that theology is the maturing and perfecting of the saints in Christ, in holiness and agape love.

In his writings he talks about the way of holiness and spiritual progress, or different stages that we go thru, till we reach that spiritual manhood and maturity of character.

S
sermonindex

Maybe semantics here, but what he is describing "if there are two choices, a good one & a bad one, choose the bad one" is by definition asceticism. Clear as day. We don't achieve greater spiritual maturity by choosing hot dogs over steak. Unless the Lord specifically makes that a choice for us individually & there's some benefit we are foregoing for the sake of Christ or others. Call it monastic theology or whatever you'd like, but that line of thinking is clearly asceticism. I don't see monks among the apostles or explained in the scriptures/epistles. Sorry, I just don't.

The scriptures are clear that If these things are a personal Conviction (eat not, taste not, touch not), that's fine, but teaching them as doctrines imposing them on others as "the way to holiness" is asceticism (& a form of legalism).

S
sermonindex

Very well stated, Jeff.

B
brothagary

So with w hen I tell another Christian he should get rid of his tv , ,or stop drinking ,for his own good ,and spiritual maturity,that's legalism ,,,,,Hmmmm.

Now know one is forcing them to not watch , not seeking justification through not watching ... Just incouraging... Get my point ,,....


It not legalism because it's jot forced upon another .....


But don't worry ,,I don't see the teaching of Christ or the apostals ,teaching mystasism

B
brothagary

But I also don't see the bible forbid it either .....which poses another issue.....

B
brothagary

I think when it comes to foods ,,,we our flesh are addicted to yummy foods over plain food ,,it is not our spirit that wants he ribs or steak ,but our flesh that wants to be tikkeld with the best tasting ,for grafafication of the pleasure sencors , how much is too much ,,,,,when we can't get our tasty food or it gets burned by the wife and is not good to the plaate ,and we get a little cranky or displeased ,,,,it is the flesh that is disappointed ,not the spirit or the inner man ,,he does not care about food ,.

My meat is to do the will of the father ,I have meet Ye no not of ..

S
sermonindex

I agree, but forbidding it as a "law" is another issue.

Even the TV. I have a TV, but have had no form of cable/satellite in our home for many years. I think that's wise, but making it a "law" or doctrine for others is a problem. Saying "watching sexually immoral & worldly programming" is no problem & Biblical. Telling someone else they have to get rid of their TV to please God another issue altogether.

T
TMK

quote:
"for grafafication of the pleasure sencors"

This begs the question- is God pleased when our "pleasure sensors" are pleased? After all he created us with them. Why? I am not talking about sinful acts- I am talking about smelling Thanksgiving dinner or tasting a freshly picked strawberry in about a month or so in these here parts. Or am i relegated to gruel, whatever that is? I eat plain oatmeal a lot of mornings and there is not much to commend it- other than its health benefits.

The problem with the points mentioned in the OP is that it seems to suggest if I enjoy eating a strawberry then I am not a spiritual person. I should have eaten moss.

S
sermonindex

TMK,

When God made man, He said, "it is good".

The body will do what the spirit in it tells it to do.

The body is amoral.

That is why Paul could say this:

Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

The body does what the spirit tells it to do. Now, we have a new spirit, joined to Jesus.


E
elected

I don't understand what is the issue? Are we saying we don't need to mortify sin or the flesh with its passions and desires?

The flesh according to the Bible is in conflict with the Spirit. We must oppose it's unholy desires and tendencies which will eventually lead us to sin, if we don't abstain from the lust of the flesh. The law of the spirit of sin and death operates in the flesh and the law of the Spirit of freedom and life operates in a Christian who is indwelled by the Spirit and who walks in the Spirit. Romans 7 and 8 makes that clear and the difference of living under the law and under the Spirit.

Under the law we are slaves of sin, under grace we are slaves of righteousness if we obey God. The realm of the flesh and the realm of the Spirit are in conflict with each other. The enemies of the Christian are the flesh, the world and the devil.

If we don't agree that we have to crucify the flesh, we are not agreeing with the Apostles and the Bible, that doctrine has been preached for 2000 years in the Church and is fundamental that we practice crucifixion of the flesh in our daily walk with the Lord as we yield to the Spirit we will be empowered to live godly by the grace of God.

S
sermonindex

God is pleased when we deny ourselves to greed, covetousness, lust, etc. We mortify our members & die to sin that still tries to raise its head in this body of flesh. But that's different than "taste not, touch not,.." Etc. thinking that denying ourself a normal Pleasure (like eating food when not eaten in gluttony or extravagance) will somehow make us more holy/mature? Read the book of Galatians. Asceticism is not a balanced view of Biblical mortification that Romans speaks of. If you want to "go without eating", or eat terrible tasting food, that's fine & that's your choice. Start teaching a false legalistic ascetic doctrine imposing that on others (or else they can't be holy or mature) & you got big problems, bad doctrine, bad imbalance, etc.

T
TMK

Redi wrote:

"Are we saying we don't need to mortify sin or the flesh with its passions and desires?"

As a practical matter, what does that mean to you?

S
sermonindex

Redi

Your post is good stuff, sound and biblical. However we have to realize some people get their information second hand, not by the Holy Spirit's illumination of the Word of God.
That's why they are so confused about almost everything because the source material they use is corrupt and is corrupting them in turn.

They can turn to God however in humility and HE will teach them HIS way.

B
brothagary

But jeff in reality ,that as what we do when we fast ,and some people want to do it more then others ,and yes it seems to increase our santfication .....


What if a group of people get together and do a Daniel fast for three years and encourage others to do that ,,that's not legalism at all ... Nor is it forbidden in scripture .......

P
passerby

we have to recall that rc have different doctrine of salvation, and how to maintain a clear conscience. If someone wants to lead an ascetic life then so be it, but will it make someone holier or become a better neighbor to others.

It is a real pity to see those mental patients suffering from obsession and compulsion of their scruples.

P
passerby

But then for the sake of the gospel we may have to forgo many things even our rights or privileges.

Not all of us have a gift to preach, to teach or to do miracles but any small talents that we have and all our actions will be accounted for, so that we may lead a very modest and unasumming life that the gopel may be promoted and not be shamed.

S
sermonindex

I believe in fasting. Again, fasting & encouraging one another to lay aside food (or even sexual relations among the married as the scriptures explain) for the sake of prayer is a god thing! Making it a rule of monastic asceticism is a different matter altogether. I just didn't get a "good vibe" from what I read in the OP. Sorry, I didn't. It brought to my mind many scriptures, like the book of Galatians mainly & others. Just being honest. The way it stated & aproached it seemed like "law", not "holiness". At least that's how it was presented in my opinion.

B
brothagary

Don't worry bro jeff ,I don't get a real good vibe either ,one would really need to read the whole or most of it to get a clear vibe ....


When you say law ,and holiness, what does that mean ,,,holiness really means to be cut of and set apart for God ,,,and really that is what many of these are trying do ...

E
elected

Hi Todd,


I realize that there is nothing good that dwells in me apart from God. Every good thing I have in me is a gift of God the Father. Its because He is merciful to me that I receive grace to repent of my sins and trust Jesus. I have no confidence in the flesh and my confidence is in Jesus and I realize that immense need to rely on Him daily for my sanctification as the branch has to rely to the vine to bear fruit.

I realize also that we as Christians are in a holy war against sin, the flesh, the world and against Satan and all his fallen angels. And I can overcome the evil one only by the power of the blood, the Cross, the Holy Ghost and by putting on the full armor of God.

One of the most dangerous enemies we have is the flesh and if we don't abstain from its passions and desires we will give in to temptation and sin. By experience I know how in the past I have failed by giving in to the passions of the flesh and sinning against God and its only the power of the blood that frees me from sin and the sanctifying grace of the Sanctifier that purifies my heart and my thoughts so that I will not think of impure things or desire immoral things or be proud, angry, selfish etc. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man in the likeness of Christ is a daily process as also it is the work of transformation of the Holy Spirit in us, to confirm us to the immage of Christ.

Returning to the subject of Christian mystics, I know very well that they had some erroneous doctrines concerning sound apostolic doctrines and I'm in no way supporting RCC or it's false teachings. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ He is my Lord and Savior and Him and the Father I worship and adore and I'm a follower of that primitive apostolic Christianity and the Bible only is my Creed. I give my wholehearted Amen to the doctrine and teachings of the Apostles. I'm called as a Christian to a life of faith in Jesus and wholehearted obedience to all the commandments of God as taught by Jesus and Apostles in the NT. I'm aware of the price to pay to follow Jesus Christ as a disciple. The way is narrow and my flesh does not want it but my spirit presses me to move forward towards the prize of my calling of God in Jesus and to the denial of the world with it's pleasures.

I refuse any isms and man made systems, even though they may share a lot of light to understand Scriptures, they fail to grasp the whole Truth and their emphasis are usually not balanced. We fall often into the trap of interpreting Scriptures thru the lenses of certain theological systems, and so the Truth of God is not proclaimed in its whole entirety.

Christian traditions often with time become corrupted and it is another trap that the Devil uses to keep people in his bondage. What was a living and blessed tradition of the early apostolic Church, later on became a corrupt one in the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church and the same principle can apply today to many Protestant denominations who give their Catechisms the status of a paper Pope and their dead orthodoxy has replaced the true knowledge of God that comes only by a personal knowing of God the Father thru Jesus Christ and by the revelation of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Knowledge of God and knowledge about God are as far from each other as east from west. Because denominationalism tends to bind and limit the Truth, that won't stop me to admire the life of those saints that have been part of it.


Returning to the subject of this discussion like A.W.Tozer I realize in these godly men like John of the Cross that we call mystics a tremendous love they had for God. I see the distinguishing marks of the Holy Spirit in their life. I discern in them a heart that longs and thirsts for the God and for his love, holiness and righteousness. Jesus was the lover of their soul and their heart was so filled with his love that they got lost in that immense sea of God's love and they lived in his holy presence.

I refuse to let others dictate to my conscience that bears me witness as well as the voice of truth in the Holy Spirit that gives me spiritual discernment to recognize the children of God even among Christian ascetics like Anthony or among Christian mystics like Thomas A Kempis. I see in men like them the life of godliness and Christ-likeness is reflected in their character and their walk with God.

I would better have little knowledge but a burning heart for God, than otherwise. That's the tragedy of us "enlightened" conservative evangelical Christians, we think we know God but the sad truth is that most of us know only about God and as a result our knowledge does not come from a personal imtimate experience and relationship of God or as a result of the illumination of the Holy Spirit as we study the Word of God. Head knowledge has substituted heart knowledge and this kind of mental knowledge is a dead one because it seperates the truth of doctrine from the life that the doctrine should lead to. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, its not an it but Him that is the living Truth that sets us free and He is the fountain of all wisdom and knowledge. All sound doctrine should point us to Him and the Father and not to some man made theological system that tries to put God's Truth in a box. Knowledge about God without love makes us arrogant and puffed up.

That's why I love those humble Christian mystics, they lead me to Christ and they exhort me to love God with a pure heart and a pure motive, and challenge me to a life of total commitment to Christ.

J
JFW

Brother Redi,

Your words here as in all I've have the pleasure to read, carry with them that heavenly scent fresh from the throne room, full of faith- sincere in expression- embodying love- denying the flesh- lifting up Christ:)
All the marks of a true disciple, and I give thanks unto God for the work He has accomplished in you,... that thru you many might come to know the true and living God, the Holy one of Israel+

Grace and peace to you dear brother~

T
TMK

Redi- I appreciate your post and agree.

But my original question was in relation to what you said here:

"we saying we don't need to mortify sin or the flesh with its passions and desires?"

And my question: "As a practical matter, what does that mean to you?"

I was looking for how you walk this out practically in your daily life. You don't have to answer; I just thought it might be helpful.

S
sermonindex

I agree & holiness (being set apart as an honorable vessel for the Lords use) is crucial to our walk & exhibiting the fragrance of Christ. And I agree that the times I can remember having the most clarity in hearing God & seeing Him move were in times of fasting. Jesus said "when you fast" & other places in scripture show that His followers "would fast when the bridegroom was taken away." Fasting is different than asceticism which says, "if there are two food choices, 1 good & 1 bad, choose the bad one" & then go on to imply that somehow you will please God more, He will love you & speak to you more because of it, & that somehow asking for spam instead of steak is what the scriptures are speaking of it when it talks of "denying the flesh" & "mortifying the flesh". It's not. That's an amoral action (food choice). It's monastic, but I don't believe God honors that with special revelation or special closeness in His presence. That's actually what the book of Galatians (& elsewhere) warns of.

And Redi, I agree with about 90% of what you shared. And I am not just a passage memorizing & regurgitating textualist denominationalist who doesn't truly know & walk with God. Please Don't lump (not that you were intending to, but just saying) anyone who isn't a monastic asceticist into a group of "insincere" or fake/shallow Christians. That's actually what was going on in Galatia with those who added the law to the Gospel of God's Grace through Faith (amoral "taste not, touch not"s) & God used the Apostle Paul to write an entire book (& elsewhere) asking them "who has bewitched you? Did you come to God by faith or by keeping the Law?

I was saved in a solitary jail cell 17+ years ago alone with just the Lord & I. I have had my life threatened by the Arian brotherhood for my faith & threatened to be beat up by a mad radical Muslim. I have seen miracles & hearings by the grace of God. I have seen God save people right before my eyes. I have been in prayer & felt the presence of God so strong I had to go prostrate & was trembling & crying with joy & holy fear in the presence of my King. I have had the Lord speak directly to me (not audibly, but in my spirit) & shared things with others only He/they knew & He used it to touch, heal, etc. I have walked through valleys of long trials of pain & difficulty & come out the other side seeing God turn ashes into beauty. I have had to stand up & rebuke (through tears & trembling) head national leaders of the Full Gospel Fellowship Association of Non-Denomintional Spirit-Filled Churches, declare what only the Lord could have showed me, & then leav their fellowship for a season in the wilderness alone with just myself & the Lord (to now have great fellowship among other saints in the Body in our homes). I could go on, but the point isn't to boast (I know how weak I am in my flesh & that there's no good thing in me that Christ didn't put there), but to say that none of this Happened because of monastic asceticism. Never once did a saint offer me steak & I said, "no, do you have Spam instead so I can 'mortify my flesh'". I either ate with joy & thankfulness or said "no thank you" & fasted quietly with a clean face & hair, not looking to show the world like a Pharisee how "self-denying" I could be.

Like I have said repeatedly, "holiness & asceticism" are NOT the same thing. The Pharisees were asceticists (outwardly). And "fasting" & "asceticism" are two different things. And, as I said, choosing to do something extra than what's in the Word of God as a personal conviction is one thing. Teaching it as a doctrine for others is ENTIRELY different. God gave us His Word to warn us of such things in MANY places in the New Testament. Monastic asceticism is in error because it's imposing Law & not faith, & it lays burdens on men's back through men's personal pet doctrines or the private interpretation of something God never said or even implied (but actually warned against).

I certainly don't "know it all" & aren't looking to argue for the sake of division, but the sneakiness of the Law & righteousness through additional requirements God never intended is something very important & foundational to our faith & walk with God. May God richly bless you all as you follow Him!
In Christ,
Jeff

B
brothagary

Not trying to argue,but to say keepingthe law of Moses is monastic is definity takeing Paul's letters out of context , if you can't see that ,I don't no what else to say ,but only to mention that the judasisers were also seeking justification through works of the law , which again is a completely different ball game ......I think we need to find a much basis to argue that monasticism is wrong then that ,,,I can't do that withe a clear concences ,I feel I would be clearly stretching the scripture to apply it in that way ,because literally Paul was talking about the law of Moses period ...

B
brothagary

But also to say that people can't come together with similar personal convictions about living a life of denying pleasures and comferts and exhorting and teaching each other's to continue to press on ,seems contradictory ,when you say that it's ok for some one to do it acording to their own personal convictions ....

T
TMK

I would say if a group of people feel like they can only grow in the Lord by eating thin broth and wearing burlap and they want to experience this together then more power to them. The problem is when that group thinks they are more spiritual than those who do not feel led by the HS to such an austere lifestyle.

P
Pnutty

in regarding Practice of the Presence of God

Brother Lawrence says,
"This exercise does not much fatigue the body; it is however proper to deprive it sometimes, nay often, of many little pleasures which are innocent and lawful, for God will not permit a soul which desires to be devoted entirely to Him should take other pleasures than with Him: that is more than reasonable."

P
passerby

Why do people fast, why did the Lord Jesus fast, why did Israel fast, Why did the prophet Daniel fast. Was it because they were following an ascetic life, for mortifying desires, or to make themselves holier.

Daniel 9:3-5,20

Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.4 I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules.

20 "While I was still speaking in prayer, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and placing my request in the presence of the Lord my God on behalf of the holy mountain of God””

Daniel 10:2-3,12

2 "At that time I, Daniel, had been mourning for three straight weeks.1 3 I ate no fancy foods””neither meat nor wine entered my mouth. Furthermore, I didn’t use any ointment until the end of the entire three weeks.

12 "‘Don’t be afraid, Daniel,” he told me, "because from the first day that you committed yourself to understand and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard. I’ve come in answer to your prayers.

T
TMK

Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

I don't think fasting is the issue here. Jesus expected us to fast and of course he fasted. But what about when we are not fasting? There seems to be a suggestion by some in these posts that if we enjoy something we are not pleasing God, if not outright sinning.

I don't know guys. Jesus was called a glutton and a wine bibber by his detractors. And it wasn't because he was on a bread and water diet.

S
sermonindex

The most dangerous thing in the Christian life is "mixture".

The only thing in the Christian life that "avails much", is "faith that worketh by love".

Paul in speaking about mixture had this to say:

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

Here is the context:

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision (works), why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

If ascetic exercises increased our love for God and others then the Scriptures would have many chapters written on it.

Jesus said we "bear much fruit" by abiding in Him.

Jesus tells us to "continue in His love" and the way we do this is to keep His commandments or His word spoken to us by the Spirit and the Scriptures.

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. IF YE KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, YE SHALL ABIDE IN MY LOVE;

And this is the same example that Jesus demonstrated in His life: "even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

Jesus abode in His Father's love by......keeping His commandments!!!

The path to the deeper life is not ascetism but submission to the Holy Spirit and obedience to Jesus Christ.

The love of God is perfected in us in TWO WAYS:

By Keeping HIS WORD
1Jn_2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

By LOVING EACH OTHER
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Notice, in all of this, The Holy Spirit is only talking about walking in His commandments and walking in love. This is the path to the deeper life in the Spirit.

If you are loving God and your neighbor, you will not be making any provision for the flesh. You won't even be thinking about it because your thoughts will be on the things of God and serving others.


A
alamb

Amen!

B
brothagary

I honestly think applying Galatians to this conversation ,is poor exegesis ,and really has nothing to do with what is being spoken , unless a person is seeking justification through works ,,,,

Nowif tozer thought the Saint Francis and John were fallen from grace because they were seeking justification from works ,he obviously would notpromote there godliness ...

So a questions would is tozer desernment off that much that he was wrong about the ascetics or are you off and wrong Julius ....


Would you claim to be more spiritual then tozer and John weasly ,, and be of a clearer desernment then them ..........

These are questions I must apply to my self .....

S
sermonindex

Hi Gary,

I see this type of mixture in many Catholic writings of which I have an extensive library. A lot of people that were never Catholics don't see this and they are in awe of writings like this.

As far as comparing myself with other saints, I never venture into that arena for as the Apostle Paul indicated, those who do that are not wise.

2Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Mysticism is making inroads into Christianity more and more. More than most people realize and these two articles (which are excellent), will illuminate a lot of people about this topic. I hope you can find some time to read them as I think they will answer a lot of your questions.

Catholic Mysticism and the Emerging Church
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/new-blog/2015/10/17/catholic-mysticism-and-the-emerging-church

Catholic Mysticism Infused into Society
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/new-blog/2015/10/17/catholic-mysticism-infused-into-society

B
brothagary

Comparing our selves with those who comend them selves is not wise ,because it is a proud person who comend him self ....that's all the scripture is saying their ,,,,but still it is a good way for you get out of answering a question very sneaky........

I'm with you their im very suspicious or catholic writings and doctrine and against it In most cases... The list of false teachings is long..

And even the ecumenical movement is well grafted in the catholopagan, mystical practictes in the Catholic Church ,and even In the new age carsamatic Christianity ...

I'm not ignorant of that.... And general I am fully against it ,,,,,but when I read some of the writings of the saints ,I do see some thing different

S
sermonindex

There is truth in most things. I have been blessed by reading Thomas a'Kempis (but not all things) and I can sort the chicken from the bones. I have also been blessed by some but not all of Madame Guyon's, "Exploring the Depths of Jesus Christ". But there is a lot of mixture in these author's writings.

I was troubled by several things, two of which were these:

"Here [the contemplative state] everything is God. God is everywhere and in all things." ””Madam Guyon

"May I hasten to say that the kind of prayer I am speaking of is not a prayer that comes from your mind. It is a prayer that begins in the heart.... Prayer that comes out of the heart is not interrupted by thinking!"””Madam Guyon, Experiencing The Depths of Jesus Christ p. 4]

Richard Fisher adds and important observation:
"Madame Guyon practiced what is sometimes called Quietism, an extreme form of Roman Catholic mysticism that emphasized the cleansing of one's inner life and included the belief that one could see Christ visibly. Before Guyon's day, in the Middle Ages, this took strange forms in erotic "bride mysticism" with some visionaries believing they were married to Jesus. Guyon and the Quietists went further, into something called essence mysticism. They believed that their being was merged with God's being and the two became one. This unbiblical idea survives today in the New Age and other non-Christian religions. In her autobiography, Guyon wrote that "divine wisdom is unknown." She made no attempt to speak of God's revelation of Himself in nature and creation (Psalm 19, Romans 1) and the specific revelation of God in Jesus Christ and His Word. She taught that we can know of God by "passing forward into God," going into a mindless, meditative state where we can get in touch with the Christ within the self, merge with that Christ and be lifted into ecstasy."

We are not to detach the mind from our spirit. Our mind should always be involved with our spirit. It is a severe point of danger to dismiss your mind and allow it to fall into passivity. Every part of your body is energized when the Holy Spirit is working. Passivity invites the Devil in. Our human understanding has a part to play in our walk with the Spirit. Truth coming from God to our spirit goes to our mind to be understood. Rom 8:6.

Eph 4:18 says they were "darkened in their understanding

Eph 4:23 "be renewed in the spirit of your mind".

B
brothagary

Those things don't sound right to me either ...sounds more like a pagan brand of medatation .....besides we are to love God with mind heart soul and strength .......

B
brothagary

I'd go as far as say it ,that the mind is the spirt ,seems to what Paul is saying ,so if we try to shut down the mind and pray with only the soul and heart ,the flesh will be impowered ,and deception may follow

S
sermonindex

There is a great deal of confusion and overlapping between the two. It is one of the greatest traps of satan for a believer to be led astray for a while due to authentic yearnings for a holier life, and then to discount ALL mysticism as false, but there is a clear difference between the two.

The main point of difference is that the False teaches Death to Self. A lot of catholic mysticim is along those lines. This is not scriptural. We are to deny ourselves not kill our humaness.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9.23 AV.

Death to self is what Nivana is all about. You practice astheticim to get rid of all desires. But not all desires are sinful. God gives them to us, but they are to come under the headship of Christ so that we will fast when we are led to do that, lose sleep etc, not to earn points with God, but in obedience to the Spirit within.

Both types speak of union, but only one is the true which is union with Christ:

"Nay, I even reckon all things as pure loss because of the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. And for His sake I have suffered the loss of everything, and reckon it all as mere refuse, in order that I may win Christ and be found in union with Him," Phil 3.8 Weymouth.

The false is union with satan at its heart.

In the false, the mind is stilled. Madame Guyon was misunderstood here but she did come dangerously close to Quietism at times, but her meaning was instructions to pray what is in the heart and not merely in the head. She did not say to put all thoughts out of it. She was referring to the source of the desires. When she said that God's wisdom is unknown she meant that in the flesh, to the mind of man but can be spiritually discerned.

It is so easy to take the sayings of those who have been perfected (not in knowledge but in obedience) the wrong way. It happened all of the time with Jesus.

True mysticism has always been unpopular with church leaders because it says that in the state of contemplation (which just means union with Christ and being conformed to His will- not the state that false mysticism talks about)we have a direct means of communicating with God and not just through the texts of scripture, and of being taught by Him.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2.27. AV.


Christian mysticism says that all things must conform to scripture however. But that personal expereince of which we read about is vital, and then confirmed by scripture. Obedience and entire submission to Christ is needed here before we will have the truth confirmed to us, by the Spirit and by the word both in harmony.

Many today know the word but do not have that close communion with Christ and so deny the walk of those that do.

The false also emphasises ecstasy as a state one can readily enter and is part of the walk by altering the state of the conscious mind but of course this is dangerous and leads to possession. The true however, speaks of ecstacy as a temporary experience that occurs when one enters into the state of union. It lasts a few hours to a few days but thereafter it is not a feature of the walk and as John X rightly says must always be discounted.

I think that Terassa of Avilla did not chose John X as her director because she was too fond of her visions and ecstacies which were thought suspect by John.She never did enter the state of union but her teachings on prayer have helped many.

So it is necessary to sift the true from the false rather than discount what we cannot understand. The one who has true union will have the wisdom of Christ, will be humble, and his behaviour will be perfectly conformed. Those who espouse the false including those in the charismatic church and its false baptism of the Spirit, will not show these fruits and will sooner or later fall publically.

The ones who had the true union can easily be discerned as the great preachers and evangelists of the past who led many people to Christ and brought in revivals. Oswald Chambers is a good example of a Christian mystic. He speaks a lot about holiness as a state to enter into rather than a gradual improvement over time.

And this is the basis of it: that sanctification is both an event and a process leading to it but there must be an event and it is known as true union - walking as He walked.

T
TMK

Believe me, Tozer is one of my absolute favorites and one of my most respected elders in the faith. He has taken heat over the years for his seeming approval of the mystics.

Of course I did not know him, so I am not sure if he liked the actuality of what the mystics said and did or the **idea** of it. I think he felt the mystics had a pathway to a deeper life in God.

One time I tried to read Teresa of Avila's "The Interior Castle." I've had a lot of schooling in my day, but that book was practically incomprehensible to me. It seemed like a new age handbook. But of course, that's just me. I got about 10 pages in before the red flags overwhelmed me.

T
twayneb

I have been thinking a lot about the OP for the past few days. Holiness is simply obedience to what God says to us in His word and by His Spirit. When I obey Him, my actions are, by definition, holy. When I disobey Him my actions are, by definition, unholy. The trick is living in obedience to Him. God has really been speaking to me from 2 Cor. 10:6 lately that we should always be in readiness to revenge our disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.

I know that some may define terms differently, but to me holiness is the fruit of righteousness that is born out in our behavior. Righteous is what I have become. Holiness is what I do as a result of being made righteous.

From that definition, I must realize that my salvation is not yet complete, and that I still struggle with my flesh having desires that are in opposition to what God desires of me. To be honest about it, Satan really does not have to tempt me directly very often. I am tempted when I am drawn away of my OWN lusts and enticed. There are strongholds that have been built in my mind and flesh over the years of by disobedience to God. Call to mind the scriptures before 2 Cor. 10:6 that deal with the mind and the scriptures that tell me that I become a slave to whatever I yield myself.

We must be careful, I think, that we do not take a particular truth out of its context. Fasting is HUGE when it comes to having victory over my own lustful desires. Fasting puts my flesh down and allows the rise of the spirit over the flesh. I intentionally discipline my flesh so that my spirit can have ascendency.

Yet there is a point when in which I can take even this beyond what God intends. There are times when I intentionally say no to my flesh where sweets are concerned because I know that in the past I have been somewhat overweight and it was a lack of the fruit of self control that led to this. So, I discipline my body. Yet I do not always deny myself sweets. There is nothing inherently holy in eating or in not eating a piece of chocolate cake. Yet there is something holy in obeying the Lord where moderation and modesty of lifestyle and caring for the temple that He has given me to live in is concerned.

I hope that analogy makes my point. I should practice what I would call a fasted lifestyle. I should demonstrate the fruit of self control. I should buffet my body and keep it in check. If I don't, I will easily find myself falling to the desires that are still in my flesh. I should intentionally work to put these desires to death. Yet I must realize that this pursuit may not look the same for me as for another man. And I must realize that I am not holy simply because I deny myself. Many Hindu's deny themselves...look a Ghandi...and yet they are lost and definitely NOT holy men. So it is not the act of self denial that makes me holy. It is the desire to be holy that motivates me to deny the flesh. It is a subtle difference I know, but I think an important one.

S
sermonindex

Very well stated Travis!

T
TMK

I agree Travis- very well stated.

S
sermonindex

by brenda7 on 2016/4/2 5:08:50

There is a great deal of confusion and overlapping between the two. It is one of the greatest traps of satan for a believer to be led astray for a while due to authentic yearnings for a holier life, and then to discount ALL mysticism as false, but there is a clear difference between the two.

Absolutely true. I agree. Satan always counterfeits the true.

The definition of Christian mysticism is one who communes with God. It is actually not an oxymoron though people would like us to believe it is.

It is a word that means spiritual communion with God yet because Satan has corrupted the meaning of the word with the occult (spiritual communing with another god - himself and his cohorts). A Christian mystic is not someone concerned with knowing the letter of the Word or religious dogmas, but someone who knows the Spirit of the Word and spends time in prayer, spiritually communing with the Lord Jesus.

The main point of difference is that the False teaches Death to Self. A lot of catholic mysticism is along those lines. This is not scriptural. We are to deny ourselves not kill our humaness.

Yes, we are not to obliterate our individualness. God calls us as individuals to have an individual walk with Him.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9.23 AV.

Death to self is what Nivana is all about. You practice astheticim to get rid of all desires. But not all desires are sinful. God gives them to us, but they are to come under the headship of Christ so that we will fast when we are led to do that, lose sleep etc, not to earn points with God, but in obedience to the Spirit within.

Amen, all desires must be submitted to the Lord Jesus. That will save us from being a glutton or being slothful and many other things. But, if men take matters into their own hands and leave the Holy Spirit out of it, they will do severe things to themselves, even flagellate themselves.

Both types speak of union, but only one is the true which is union with Christ:

"Nay, I even reckon all things as pure loss because of the priceless privilege of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. And for His sake I have suffered the loss of everything, and reckon it all as mere refuse, in order that I may win Christ and be found in union with Him," Phil 3.8 Weymouth.

The false is union with satan at its heart.

Yes, I opened up with the fact that Satan counterfeits everything. Some Christians who entertain mixture in their lives are oftentimes communing with a familiar spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

In the false, the mind is stilled. Madame Guyon was misunderstood here but she did come dangerously close to Quietism at times, but her meaning was instructions to pray what is in the heart and not merely in the head. She did not say to put all thoughts out of it. She was referring to the source of the desires. When she said that God's wisdom is unknown she meant that in the flesh, to the mind of man but can be spiritually discerned.

It is so easy to take the sayings of those who have been perfected (not in knowledge but in obedience) the wrong way. It happened all of the time with Jesus.

True. Jesus was misunderstood and mischaracterized constantly. For example:

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

And I have no bone to pick with Madame Guyon, and I can see how she might be talking about "not thinking about bad desires". Thanks for that explanation.

True mysticism has always been unpopular with church leaders because it says that in the state of contemplation (which just means union with Christ and being conformed to His will- not the state that false mysticism talks about)we have a direct means of communicating with God and not just through the texts of scripture, and of being taught by Him.

Another good definition of Christian mysticism.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2.27. AV.

Christian mysticism says that all things must conform to scripture however. But that personal experience of which we read about is vital, and then confirmed by scripture. Obedience and entire submission to Christ is needed here before we will have the truth confirmed to us, by the Spirit and by the word both in harmony.

Many today know the word but do not have that close communion with Christ and so deny the walk of those that do.

The false also emphasizes ecstasy as a state one can readily enter and is part of the walk by altering the state of the conscious mind but of course this is dangerous and leads to possession. The true however, speaks of ecstasy as a temporary experience that occurs when one enters into the state of union. It lasts a few hours to a few days but thereafter it is not a feature of the walk and as John X rightly says must always be discounted.

I think that Terassa of Avilla did not chose John X as her director because she was too fond of her visions and ecstasies which were thought suspect by John.She never did enter the state of union but her teachings on prayer have helped many.

So it is necessary to sift the true from the false rather than discount what we cannot understand. The one who has true union will have the wisdom of Christ, will be humble, and his behavior will be perfectly conformed. Those who espouse the false including those in the charismatic church and its false baptism of the Spirit, will not show these fruits and will sooner or later fall publicly.

The ones who had the true union can easily be discerned as the great preachers and evangelists of the past who led many people to Christ and brought in revivals. Oswald Chambers is a good example of a Christian mystic. He speaks a lot about holiness as a state to enter into rather than a gradual improvement over time.

And this is the basis of it: that sanctification is both an event and a process leading to it but there must be an event and it is known as true union - walking as He walked.

We should submit all experiences to the Word and not seek experiences for experience sake. Many seek spiritual experiences for the sake of the spiritual experience. This is the type of "mystical Christianity" that you do not want to get caught up in. Spiritual experiences must be anchored to objective truth. If you live for experiences you run the real risk of losing yourself from the Word of God. Also, walking in the Spirit never means to divorce your mind and reasoning and send it to the moon.

If you read Jack Spark's book, "Mind Benders", an expose about the Local Church and Witness Lee, he talks about their teaching of "Pray Reading", where they are taught that to exercise the Spirit in everyplace they must do away with their mind (turn it off). "Pray reading turns off your mind and ministers to your spirit." This is false. Your mind should be involved with your spirit.

Deception comes through your mind being led astray. A closed mind is a sure sign of deception.

2 Cor 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Brenda, great post, thanks for providing balance. Another reason I am glad you are back. :-)

E
elected

Hi brother Fletcher,

Blessings to you too brother, if anything good or pure comes of us it is because of the Holy Spirit because without his grace we will be very selfish and sinful left to ourselves. That's why I have declared war to my flesh, I know how I yielded to the flesh and it lead me in the past to years of backsliding and it makes me feel shameful of how I rebelled and lived for myself. I wish I could change that but the past is gone but thx God it's been forgiven only because of what Jesus Christ has done for us on the Cross. His blood has cleansed my past sins and he has accepted my imperfect repantance and my little faith and by his mercy of the Father I'm restored into this blessed fellowship with the Father as his child. May we be counted to be faithful for Him brother in this in the midts of this most ungodly generation and it will get worst but where the darkness will be thick the light of God will be greater. The spirit of this world is a great and powerful force but the Spirit of God within us is greater and all powerful and Christ already has won the war for us on the Cross, we just need to go forward lifting high the banner of the Cross and win the battles in His power and strength.


Hi brother Todd,

Sorry for not replying on time yesterday. I want to clarify that even though I recognize as the children of God those saints who chose to live a life of ascetism for Christ, I don't encourage that as the way of Christian life, and so don't I encourage that if Christians want to be great for God they have to live like the monks in the monastery. The history of Christian ascetism in the early Church as a moment startedbin the 3rd century, and monasticism as a movement started in the 4th century but this is not the time to talk about them but just a reminder they were orthodox movements recognized by the Church at that time.


The Protestants starting with great Reformer Martin Luther went on the other direction and made it almost a sacred unwritten rule for every christian to be married. Apostle Paul exhorted Christians to be single like him and to be devoted completely to the Lord, this was just his personal advise not a command. I hope you get my point, balance when it comes to any biblical teaching is important. The early apostolic Church had that balance.

To answer your question. In practical sense I try not to give in to the flesh and I know that it is by the power of the Spirit that I can resist sin or temptation. I have my besseting sins and thx Jesus I have experienced deliverance from them by the blood and the Spirit. When I'm at work for example if my coworker tells me to do something, the flesh hates that but in the spirit I have to humble myself and do what I was asked. When sometimes I'm tempted to be angry with my coworker I will pray and pray God and will not give in to the pride of the flesh or anger. I used to love dancing and going to clubs or pubs or think about impure things etc. Jesus has delivered me from such things and purified my mind and heart by his Spirit. I experience the struggles and the inner conflict, it seems sometime like I don't feel anything and I feel so week in the spirit and the flesh is about to overcome me. I realize that I have to live by faith and not feelings and I make up my mind not to give in to the desires of the flesh but abstain from them. I'm a work in progress.

I'm recently experiencing this freedom from sin and its all because God has been very merciful and long-suffering with me. You know what makes me wonder more than anything? Not how God created out of nothing the whole universe but how God can be so merciful with me? When I look in my past and how I backslid many times and how I deserved the deepest spot of hell for it, I wonder and I still wonder about God's mercies and grace.

He brought me back to his presence and forgave me and restored my soul. He never abandoned me or erased my name from his book of life but gave me grace to repent and power in the Spirit to walk in the light. Praise God, his mercies and love endure forever.

Blessings brother,


T
TMK

Amen Redi. Thank you for sharing that.

S
sermonindex

Hi J

Thanks! It is great to be back and talk with you :)

It is a word that means spiritual communion with God yet because Satan has corrupted the meaning of the word with the occult (spiritual communing with another god - himself and his cohorts). A Christian mystic is not someone concerned with knowing the letter of the Word or religious dogmas, but someone who knows the Spirit of the Word and spends time in prayer, spiritually communing with the Lord Jesus.

Yes, I agree with everything you have said in your whole post..

Some Christians who entertain mixture in their lives are oftentimes communing with a familiar spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

Indeed, I have noticed this increasingly.

We should submit all experiences to the Word and not seek experiences for experience sake. Many seek spiritual experiences for the sake of the spiritual experience. This is the type of "mystical Christianity" that you do not want to get caught up in. Spiritual experiences must be anchored to objective truth. If you live for experiences you run the real risk of losing yourself from the Word of God. Also, walking in the Spirit never means to divorce your mind and reasoning and send it to the moon.

Oh absolultely :)

Thanks for the heads up on the Jack Sparks book. I saw it for pennies on amazon so ordered it. Have you read War on the Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis? She discusses the subject at length.

S
sermonindex

I have been thinking a lot about the OP for the past few days. Holiness is simply obedience to what God says to us in His word and by His Spirit. When I obey Him, my actions are, by definition, holy. When I disobey Him my actions are, by definition, unholy. The trick is living in obedience to Him. God has really been speaking to me from 2 Cor. 10:6 lately that we should always be in readiness to revenge our disobedience when our obedience is fulfilled.

I know that some may define terms differently, but to me holiness is the fruit of righteousness that is born out in our behavior. Righteous is what I have become. Holiness is what I do as a result of being made righteous.

Great thought brother Travis. As I fully agree part of holiness is relationship to God and following the desires of the Spirit not the flesh in choices in our life. But I would also add that the modern church in North America has taken away all restrictions that believers have not indulged in past centuries.

I talked with one young pastor that argued that anything in the world is not wrong and Christians can partake in almost everything the world does. Of course not murder, adultery etc. But everything else, including watching movies showing live adultery etc.

This lack of separation of believers that are not being pilgrims in the earth is causing a lack of the Holy Spirit filling and is grieving the Spirit of which we are sealed. Any sincere believer who reads the entire New Testament and marks every bible verse calling for mortification, separation, putting away, not indulging etc, will realize there are hundreds of call from the Holy Spirit to do these very things.

It is not a being religions or not religious but rather obeying God's desire for our practical lives on this earth.

S
sermonindex

by brenda7 on 2016/4/3 5:23:43

Thanks for the heads up on the Jack Sparks book. I saw it for pennies on amazon so ordered it. Have you read War on the Saints by Jessie Penn-Lewis? She discusses the subject at length.

Yes, I have read Jesse's book. I used to buy War on the Saints in hardback directly from Thomas Lowe in New York, 10 copies at a time back in the 80s and 90s and give them away to friends that I thought were particularly ready and open to it. I only purchased the unabridged edition. Whoever started printing an abridged edition, cut out very important things (which were obviously controversial for people ignorant of Satan's tactics.)

Here is the unabridged edition.
http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html

I can't attest for anything else on this site.

T
twayneb

But I would also add that the modern church in North America has taken away all restrictions that believers have not indulged in past centuries.

I talked with one young pastor that argued that anything in the world is not wrong and Christians can partake in almost everything the world does. Of course not murder, adultery etc. But everything else, including watching movies showing live adultery etc.

This lack of separation of believers that are not being pilgrims in the earth is causing a lack of the Holy Spirit filling and is grieving the Spirit of which we are sealed. Any sincere believer who reads the entire New Testament and marks every bible verse calling for mortification, separation, putting away, not indulging etc, will realize there are hundreds of call from the Holy Spirit to do these very things.

Greg: Totally agreed brother. I think the seeds of this error are sown by a misunderstanding of the grace of God and of salvation. We have forgotten that when we were baptized into Christ, we were baptized into His death. Salvation is not a decision and a prayer. It is a death and a rebirth. Obedience is the evidence of rebirth. How many times do we read that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. If we know Him, we will do what He has said for us to do. Somehow we have turned salvation into nothing more than the acceptance of forgiveness offered and the assurance of avoiding the unpleasantness of hell. To be honest, it is a little bit self serving and self focused, and not at all the picture of salvation painted in scripture.

S
sermonindex

Thanks Julius I have the unabridged edition and as you say, important bits are missed out.

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